PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: steuben on August 30, 2005, 11:10:40 pm
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i was thinking about this earlier today.
that hurricane was a little bit convient. it is exactly what the bush government needed to distracted the populace from the quagemire that is iraq. the us military spawned that storm. the then directed it to a plausible, but rarely hit, location.
presto, instant distraction. americans are no longer thinking about iraq. they now see bush and the republicans as rescuers that helped to rebuild new orleans and the area.
*removes tin foil hat*
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Robin eggs the whitehouse To hell with bottled water!!!!!
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Did anyone else hear that gas prices could go up 30-60 cents because of the stop in production in the gulf. I only seen this on the local news. But if this does happen Im going to be even more upset and the Bush Regime. I know they want to open up Alaska, so when prices go up it just makes me think they are trying to get us to do something that we dont want to do.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Did anyone else hear that gas prices could go up 30-60 cents because of the stop in production in the gulf. I only seen this on the local news. But if this does happen Im going to be even more upset and the Bush Regime. I know they want to open up Alaska, so when prices go up it just makes me think they are trying to get us to do something that we dont want to do.
Ok wake up people we have been needing to open up Alaska for drilling for a long time.
The oil supply in the middle east has been runing out; in part to what has been destroyed in the many many wars in part of the word (not just the handfull we have been in).
We have already been geting a large chunk of our raw petrolium from the Alaskan pipeline and it has been running no where near capacity.
No single oil company has any controll over the price of oil most of this comes from the ludicruss bidding that occures in the stock exchange, natural disasters like Katrina, and yes the dwindaling oil supplys world wide.
All we ever hear about is how Bush is causeing the price of gas to rise.
Alright then take this into consideration remember all those vinyards that were recently destroyed in Italy? Well guess what they whent and destroyed a very large source of cheap, cost effective, environmentaly frienly, fuel that works excedingly well in our curent internal combustion engiens.
They could have used the grapes from all those vines as an endless suply of ethanol with wich they could have flooded the markets droping the price of gas world wide.
Oops, been blameing the wrong people have we?
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Actually the middle east is not anywhere close to running out of oil and Alaska has very little compared to what many of the countries have. From what I understand, if we keep our consumtion at the same rate the entire world will be out of oil. What we need to do is some research about alternative fuels. That would be best.. not even mentioning what it will do for the enviroment. But opening up our protected land.. just for a little oil because Bush says it is what we need to do.. its crap.
Oh wait.. one more thing we shouldnt have done, elect him twice :(.
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We can always go back to using coal :)
I remember a few years back watching the news in Russia, and one of the topics was that some body (some body important i guess) asked the government why so much coal is being mined and yet hardly any is being used. And the responce the government gave was that Russia alone had a coal reserve to last a few hundred years, yet the way the way things are going, the world may run out of oil by the end of the century...
Well... Look on the bright side... Chimney sweeps will be back in business!
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The most obvious solution is for people to stop purchasing SUVs and turn off the lights at night, but I don\'t see that happening soon. Seriously, the raw amount of SUVs in my area is just frightening.
BTW: At 14,000 gallons of water to one gallon of ethanol, ethanol is decidely not the solution.
Edit: I\'m sure you\'re all aware that the media doesn\'t need a hurricane to distract it. Hurricanes, Tsunamis, and other acts of Earth are not secret ploys by the Bush Administration. After all, the war\'s been going on for a while now, and the media\'s getting bored with it.
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Gas prices suck big time and im in los angeles we\'ve got it the worst.
Everything is more expensive here.. gas, cars, houses (700,000 for a pathetic shack) *sigh* texas here i come! :P
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Ahh a good Bush bashin thread in the plaza! We have not had one of those in several months.
So now, Bush is not only the most evilist man on the planet who can control the price of oil by manipulating the very people that hate him the most, Now he is also able to control the weather!
Are you mental? Quit reading blogs and use the brain God gave you.
If you want to attack Bush hit him where he is truely wrong. His open border policy with Mexico has his own party screaming mad at him. The budget is way out of control and his lack of communication skills are horriable. He can not give a speach with out the nervous chuckling that drives me crazy (and I voted for him).
By the way my heart goes out to those back east that have been effected by the Hurricane (most likely you will not read this as you are in some kind of shelter without internet access).
FYI. I agree with Hatch on the drillin Alaska thing. I have not seen any evidence that the environment will be harmed at all. It is just an emotion issue brought up by people that have never been to Alaska.
[edit grammer]
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Actually the middle east is not anywhere close to running out of oil and Alaska has very little compared to what many of the countries have. From what I understand, if we keep our consumtion at the same rate the entire world will be out of oil. What we need to do is some research about alternative fuels. That would be best.. not even mentioning what it will do for the enviroment. But opening up our protected land.. just for a little oil because Bush says it is what we need to do.. its crap.
Oh wait.. one more thing we shouldnt have done, elect him twice :(.
Must I point out all the areas in the middle east that are now dry of oil? Oil is a non replenishable reasourse; the more you take the less there is; and Opek has been pumping oil at an incredably dangerous rate for years just to maintain their hold on the market.
Originaly posted by Monketh
BTW: At 14,000 gallons of water to one gallon of ethanol, ethanol is decidely not the solution.
[/QOUTE]
Umm monketh the need for water is determined by the type of alchohol used to make the ethanol. For example an alchohol such as wine or apple brandy which are made from fruit juices would actualy produce water as a byproduct. And with those such as wisky the most of the water would be reuseable.
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Actually Hatchnet OPEC (Oil Producing Exporting Countries) has kept production down so they can keep prices up and keep their oil as long as they can. Yes and I do know what countries pump out.. or atleast what they were 6 months or so ago and I know it hasnt changed much. And what countries have ran out of oil? Not Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Kuwait. Those are the big three there with Saudi at number one.
Are you mental? Quit reading blogs and use the brain God gave you.
For one, this is one Bush bashing thread.. though I think there should be one each week until he is out of office so I can vent. And sorry I have never read a blog in my life.. Most of what I have learned either comes strait from my schooling and my own research. But opening up our reserves are not going to make things better. If you did not know America only produces about half of the oil we use.. because we use so much. And if we wanted to fully support ourselves we could but then we would run out of our oil even quicker. And there are plenty of other reasons that we could yell at him.. but one of them is not the Open Door policy with Mexico.. One thing you didnt even mention was the war in Iraq which is atleast bogus. And that is one more reason prices are up a little... Iraq used to produce about 3 million barrels of oil a day.. but now with all the attacks... since the war begun very little has been harvested with the outbreak of attacks.
(and I voted for him)
looks like someone didnt use the brain god gave to them :P
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Originally posted by Efflixi Aduro and everyone else who moaned about gas prices :)
Gas prices suck big time
Be glad you aren\'t living in Europe gas prices in the Uk are close to hitting $6.00 a gallon :(
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The blog and mental comment was dirrected at Steuben and not you Valbrandr. He accused Bush of makeing the Hurricane.
I ment the \"mental\" and \"Brains\" comments as a tongue in cheek kind of thing. You seem a bit more serious. So I will not make comment your retort of the brains comment other than to say I will not make comment on it.
I believe you are correct about the effect of drilling in Alaska. It will not mean oil independance. But it will also not destroy the environment. Drilling for gas and oil will keep some of that money here in America. For the record I got my information from a Trade journal for the Oil and gas industry. You can draw your own conclutions from that. What \"research\" have you done? I hope it is not your public schooling! With all the shooting and sex with teachers going on, your lucky just to come out alive or with some STD.
I am gettin off topic, the tread was about the War and the Hurricane. The answer is NO, Our prez did not conjure up a hurricane using the \'dark way\'.
Again if your home was wiped out by the Hurricane but you still have some sort of internet access and you thought this thread was going to express some sympathy for your plight. You have mine. I will be donating to Red Cross I hope that helps.
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lol, the only thing I do not want is to take any arguement to a personal level. If you thought I was out of line I apologize. And my last comment was just a little joke nothing serious.. But No, I am a history and Political Science major. I have about a year and a half left. I have taken classes on Globalization (among other classes) in which The Economist was a required reading. It is very helpful.. all sorts of statistics from how much oil produced to trade deficits and whatnot. I am educated. Now obviously my opinion is biased. because it is an opinion. But I try to keep an open mind. I am still very angry about the last election so thats why I seem a bit agitated.
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Your response was inline with what I said, so I realy can not take offense.
As to your frustration from the election, maybe I can help. I am from a blue state, so my vote for him did not influence the election. No doubt your upset at the red states for not seeing through Bush\'s \'lies\'. Well the election did not depend on that. Bush had a clear message, Kerry did not. Kerry did a photo shoot in camo and holding a shotgun! If you where a real hunter you noticed Kerry holding the gun incorrectly. If you were pro gun control you voted for the Green party. Bush is what he is, and 50% of the population don\'t hate him. Just help your party elect someone less repulsive than Kerry.
Now maybe you can help me out. Why is it that the Democrats cater to the poor, and uneducated but not the rednecks? arn\'t us rednecks poor and uneducated? I would like free government stuff too, but in order to get it I have to vote Repulican.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
... I am a history and Political Science major. I have about a year and a half left...
is it just me or does it seem like political science majors always are the most incorrect about everything political? no offense valbrandr, you seem intelligent enough to me, i beleive your political science classes have just screwed up your actual sense in politics... :D not that i would actually know, since i never knew you before your political science classes anyway...
well, i have been trying to not get in any more political arguements on these boards because no good ever comes of them... one side never wins, no one ever convinces the other side they are wrong...
but, just for the fun of it, i\'m gonna argue some more!
[arguement]
i pretty much agree with everything derwoodly hatchnet said, so you know my side of the arguement now!
however, the last derwoodly\'s last post is completely against what i beleive. yes i am from redneckland, and my family is not wealthy (although we are not homeless either) and my parents aren\'t really \"educated\" as i define the word (college education), but i am 100% absolutely against the goverment giving free stuff to anyone except the disabled, otherwise it is a form of communism. think about it, taking money from the rich, giving it to the poor, yeah it sounds like robin hood and all that, but it is completely different. rich people have to work their ass of to be rich. either that or have an inheritacne or win the lottery, which are the exceptions, and are so unlikely that for the sake of arguement i will through them out the window. people who are poor are usually poor because of their own mistakes (my family for example, my father is a retard when it comes to spending money properly. he is up to his eyeballs in debt, and our family does not deserve to just get free money from the more well off families.) it infringes on the rights of wealthier people to take their money and give it to people who made mistakes. however, that is not the main problem with giving people free stuff, the main problem goes back to the fundamentals of communism, if people get the same amount of money (or less, but still enough to live on) as someone else, for doing less work, why in the world would the do the same amount of work? there is no incentive. that\'s why communism never works... no one ever has a reason to work hard (btw, i\'m not saying this is a communist system, i\'m saying it shares some similarites.)
i do agree with open border with mexico being a problem, and i agree drilling alaska won\'t do anything to the environment there... things don\'t live under the ground (that\'s where the oil is by the way) and really everything above ground or above the sea (sorry i\'m not familiar with exactly where the reserves are in alaska) is pretty unintrusive...
oh man, now i\'m all angry about how stupid environmentalist ideals are...
a few years back, there was a forest fire in california, and there were some hikers trapped in the middle, and there was no place for choppers to land to pick them up etc. etc. in other words, no one could rescue them except by putting the fire out... so the choppers were gonna bring water from a lake nearby to put out the fire, but then some moron environmentalists told them they couldn\'t get water from the lake because some stupid endangered species of fish lived there, and they were afraid the choppers would pick up the fish in with the water... so the choppers had to go to a further away lake to get water, and they didn\'t make it back in time and the people were killed. people died for some stupid fish. and even if environmentalists care for nature more than human life, a whole bunch of trees were burned down too, and the habitat of many animals destroyed... but since some stupid fish wasn\'t strong enough to survive as a species (i do somewhat beleive an natural selection to an extent) all that was destroyed and peole died...
[/arguement]
sorry, everyone has probably already heard of that, it\'s old news, but i got fired up and needed to vent :D
anyway, since this is about the hurricane, were any ps members affected by the hurricane?
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That was a bit of Sarcasm. I don\'t vote for Republicans because they give me free stuff. I vote for them because Democrats have ignored my segment of the population. I use to be a Democrat, but now that they are the party for the lets love everyone but the white male. I have to vote Repulican just so I can have some sense of diginity. The Democrats are now the pary of contradictions, as soon as they decide what they stand for and recognize that light skined males that were flannel are part of the rainbow, I might go back.
Did I miss anything Val?
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STOP USING THIS FORUM TO PRESENT YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS!
It\'s annoying and leads to useless flames and arguments, lets not start another peta racoon topic... *rolls eyes*
Edit: I congradulate you tauren, for having a head when others don\'t. Enviromentalists can say all they want, but when it comes down to it, humans>animals, I mean look at us, we have technology! they don\'t, we are able to form governments, etc... and they can\'t.
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Oh I love a good political arguement.
First, you think poor people are poor and it is all their own fault. You dont think circumstances.. like a person being born into poverty... how often do those people become rich? And ask yourself about the rich people.. was it because they were so good at whatever? What about all the rich people living off old money?
I would say it is more likely that people born into rich families become rich and people born into poor families may make strides but in many ways are still poor. I have always been poor. I am the first person in my family to attended college. Many years my family lived right above the poverty line.. and my parents worked their asses off. So if you are a redneck but not actually poor then please dont tell me about poor people.
Secondly, what exactly is wrong with Communism other than how it has been implemented? Do you actually know anything about Communism.. have you read any of Marx\'s writings or anything stating how it was supposed to be? And getting to the government helping people? Why shouldnt they? I feel since they tax us then they should filter the money back into the United States. Back to the people who need it most.. I guess if you were on that end of the stick.. you might understand. Not to mention what about the minorities in this country? They make quite a bit less on average then the majority ( white people).. is this fair? They have to pay the same bills.. if the system is not already fair then someone shoulld try to make it so. If government didnt loom over businesses in America think about how much money you would be making and what minimum wage would be at.
Hmm I wonder what you would think about many of the European countries about how they run things? Many countries have figured a few things out. It is about the people.. not how much money you can make... it is every family who calls themselves Americans (or whatever). People get so rapped up in politics and being politically correct they forget what is most important. The same thing has happened here.. and yes I mean PS. The Community itself in a way is crumbling it seems.
yes I am an idealist.. you can fault me for that if you want to... but I will never forget what is most important in life.. and that is not money. It is the people.. and their families. You tell me why they dont deserve help if they need it? I personally hate the idea of a hierarchy. Most things could be made fair.. but you will always have those who think you get what deserve.
And btw... just cause you live in the south.. you can still disagree with the president once in a while. He is just one person whos views are as skewed as everyone elses.
Edit: and I am not a democrat.. Im a Socialist. But it is not that the democratic party has forgot about white males.. they just remembered that everyone else is just as important and we should attempt to make everyone equal.. because as it stands. we are not equal. yes white males are the next group deciminated against.. this is true... but I assume your education was just fine and it will be your own fault if you dont make it. Talk to someone who lived in the inner city school who was passed through the system. But I guess, either way it will be their fault for not moving out of that area and not making it as well as the average white person.
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Originally posted by JellyWerker
STOP USING THIS FORUM TO PRESENT YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS!
It\'s annoying and leads to useless flames and arguments, lets not start another peta racoon topic... *rolls eyes*
No
If you dont like it dont read the thread. Some people enjoy talking about politics and though their opinions may conflict they are still just talking, they cant really hit eachother.
The forum is a place to talk and if people want to talk about politics they are more than welcome to as long as they keep a mature conversation going, not a flamefest.
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communism doesn\'t work, that\'s what\'s wrong with it, it depends on having perfect humans, and there are no perfect humans, someone will always get greedy and it will ruin the whole thing.
I\'ll write more against your stupidity later, got to go dogsit.
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Haha my stupidity? Who said that Communism is going to work today. It is a process, in which you pass through a Capitalist nation (America), to a Socialist nation (pick on of the countries in Europe but not so much Britain or Eastern Europe) and then it eventually moves into Communism. One requirement is for people to be more inteligent then they are today. Yes.. people like you would mess it up for all of us, if it happened today because people will abuse any system in the current state of things. But this is another conversation for later.. we are already preoccupied. :)
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so bush made a tornado to hide oil and iraq?
lol why didn\'t he just pretend to choke and die then people would think he was almost assassassinated.
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Ok ok ok...stop think about what you all have just said...think about the hurricane and the possible thousands of people that died and hundreds of thousands or possible millions who lost their homes...their city...everything...now read over what you guys have wrote one more time...slowly edit it and replace it with \"I am an idiot for writing suspicions and stupid thoughts instead of mourning for a significant loss of life and achievement.\"
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Hmm didnt know you cared about anything the way you treat people Depth. Everyone mourns for them but should we have a hundred posts of people saying how sorry they are and whatnot? That would become so cliche.. yes we care but I myself am talking about what has been happening for the last what 3 years where gas prices have gone up and up. In another day or so they will be triple what they were 8 years ago where I live. That is outragous. Which is completely a different issue then \"Hey, I dont care about what happened to the thousands of people down south.. I just want gas to be affordable.\"
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Hmm didnt know you cared about anything the way you treat people Depth. Everyone mourns for them but should we have a hundred posts of people saying how sorry they are and whatnot? That would become so cliche.. yes we care but I myself am talking about what has been happening for the last what 3 years where gas prices have gone up and up. In another day or so they will be triple what they were 8 years ago where I live. That is outragous. Which is completely a different issue then \"Hey, I dont care about what happened to the thousands of people down south.. I just want gas to be affordable.\"
Valbrandr I have a question for you; How much petrolium product do you consume in your day to day life?
Now take that number and multiply it by a few billion and you will have one of the main reasons why prices for petrolium products are on the rise.
Rember petrolium is a nonreplenishable reasourse the more that is used up the more it\'s value will rise.
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valbrandr, if you saw 10 million dollars that you could have simplyy by taking it, even if it would hurt other people, would you take it? don\'t say no, that would be a lie, there is no one who wouldn\'t, communism doesn\'t need people to be more intelligent, it needs people to be perfect, and that will never happen
/me realises why he left the ps community in the first place... and starts packing... elysiun is so much more intelligent on average ;)
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Realizing you have a problem is the first step Jerry. If you dont know what your problem is, is that you, for some odd reason, think everyone else is like you. Im sorry I dont believe in a defined Human Nature. There are more people than myself who would not take the money. And your way of thinking is exactly what I have been talking about this entire time. There are things more important than money. I dont love money.. infact I hate it because it basicially makes people act stupid/in a way that they would not normally. Hopefully you understand what I mean... because you seem to be one of them.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Realizing you have a problem is the first step Jerry. If you dont know what your problem is, is that you, for some odd reason, think everyone else is like you. Im sorry I dont believe in a defined Human Nature. There are more people than myself who would not take the money. And your way of thinking is exactly what I have been talking about this entire time. There are things more important than money. I dont love money.. infact I hate it because it basicially makes people act stupid/in a way that they would not normally. Hopefully you understand what I mean... because you seem to be one of them.
Valbradr there are other things than money that elicite greed.
Power, sex, pleasure, anger, revenge, the list goes on and on. And I am more than willing to bet that you have fallen prey to more than one of these greeds. After all there is no perfect man and there never will be.
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Yes I see what you are saying. But the problem here is that you dont know me. So dont make assumptions about who I am. I am obviously not like either of you. you can take that however you want.. but it seems as though we prize very different things.
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Val,
I hope you don\'t feel picked on. Usually there more liberal thinkers here. I really thought I was the one who was going to get flamed.
I have to be carefull with the white male race card lest you think me a bigot. That is not really the case. You speak of giving to those who need help. I am all for this. The problem I have with the government is that they tend to give to those who they think will vote for them. I have worked for 6 bucks an hour to put myself through colledge (you would never know it by the way I spell, but I did go) that is 12,000 a year, is that poor enough for you (shared a studio for a place to live).
I was hoping to pick your brain about what you thought about the Democrats, but you stated your not one. This makes me wonder what you thought was going to happen at the last election. What was it that made you so mad you thing there should be a Bush bashin thread every month?
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Nah Im okay. And I hope everyone else understands that I dont mean anything personal. This is just a debate.. that no one will win. Ill try not to get too worked up. But what I meant about being so angry and not being a democrat, since I have been in college (which I go to a private Catholic College so not your average liberal institution, and Im not catholic btw) I have been pushed further and further left. I have studied President Bush too much that I have become bitter. And I dont even want to get into him losing the first election. Now I would consider myself a Socialist which is even further left on the political spectrum then democrats. So on nearly every issue I side with Democrats and truely it would be very tough for me to ever vote for a republican.. of course I like Mccain.
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The first election? With your education surly you have heard of the electoral college?
Did any of your teachers have anything nice to say about Bush? Did they all vote for Kerry? I am more confused than ever by that last post of yours.
I could not vote for Kerry. He was just too rich, and I did not want his wife as the first lady. I also got the impresion Kerry would have had to ask his wife before he made any important decissions.
Gore was another joke. Surly you must have studied him. He invented the internet! Yea, yea, I have heard the spin on that one... what he really said was... blah blah blah I was apart of making the laws that created the internet. Ha! I was there! I heard the speach the first time with my own ears. When you go over to your relatives this weekend ask them how they remember it. Never mind what scholars say. They did not think Bush could win. Well they were wrong. Not everyone thinks like a college professor. Some of us work for a living.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Hmm didnt know you cared about anything the way you treat people Depth. Everyone mourns for them but should we have a hundred posts of people saying how sorry they are and whatnot? That would become so cliche.. yes we care but I myself am talking about what has been happening for the last what 3 years where gas prices have gone up and up. In another day or so they will be triple what they were 8 years ago where I live. That is outragous. Which is completely a different issue then \"Hey, I dont care about what happened to the thousands of people down south.. I just want gas to be affordable.\"
The way I treat people lol? I treat the idiots like idiots, the talented with respect and the nice people get treated nicely. To come on and start talking about how a hurricane was sole ly a plot by a government and talking like that over this kind of event in time. That is disrespectful in so many ways. No I don\'t expect everyone to express their sadness, perhaps to expect nothing at all on the issue would be best sometimes.
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Let me start by saying I have missed you all since I have been without internet for almost a week now.
But with that said I have to say a few things about the comments made in this thread.
1: (Oil)
The natural resources within the earth will run out. That is a fact. Bones can not biodegrate at the rate we are useing these minerals. Increaseing the drilling and pumping capacity in and around alaska I believe is a short lived fix to an ever growing problem. We as a country really need to stop crying about the price and start doing something. Hybred cars to this point are the best temporary solution I have seen to this delima. Hybreds can be bought for as little as 12k and most get 60+ miles per gallon. This is only the begining. We need to dresticly increase the funding for hydrogen based engine research. I beleave this combined with solar cell enegry cells that can save the enery in themselves for use when the sun is not out, these are the only solutions we truely have in the near future.
2: (war on terror)
Bush I beleave truely was mis-informed. That said there was much that could have been done much differantly. We did a honorable thing or at least it will be seen that way in the end. We freed an entire country from terrony. That in my opinion should have been outlined as the primary reason for going to war with Iraq. Not WMD\'s (which we know he had...I mean we did give them to him). At the end of the day as I sit back with my bottle of LTD and attempt to type this correctly, all I can say is now Bush knows he planed this war wrong but he also knows he can not back down because of the long term impact that would put on America\'s sacurity.
3: (Border Policy in America)
I completly understand the reason why so many people wish to leave Mexico and South America. I feel for them. They want to live where they have a chance for there kids to be successful. On that same note though CLOSE THE FREAKING BORDERS. As it stands now it takes roughly 12 months. I would openly agree to shortning that proccess. I say if you wish to come to this country take 1 month to check there background and then once your here please learn our language. It is just a matter of respect. There is no good reason why there should be a need for public school to teach in any language other than english. I would not exspect Mexican\'s to learn english just because I ran to there country and I dont feel we should be forced to do the same.
These are just a few thoughts from a conservitive mind. I myself plan to run for public office in my lifetime. Hopefully I am better able to think out the ending to things I do. Forgive my errors in this post as I am a little tipped right now.
Aranis
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For the most part that was a very good post trying to stay away from plain personal bias. The only part I dont agree with is the closing the border. My problem with it is America has always been accused of a \"Brain Drain\" . Basicaly we try to take the most inteligent and educated people. And we only allow something like 500,000 immigrants to migrate here in a year and a very small percentage of that is the basic average people. Now, sure if people can make it here there could be a good chance of them getting to stay. And if we do this than lets close the border with Canada as well. Just because they are white people who speak english for the most part and are not poor doesnt mean they should get a free ride here. But I know. Im an Idealist and I do believe things should be more perfect then they currently are.
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Oh no I totaly agree with you. Close canadas border also. Truth of the matter is though that 90 percent of illegals do come across the mexico border. Problem is, There leaders. If they can be called that. Ok I am too slammed to continue this post but on a last note. I am an American. I beleave in helping anyone who helps themselves as well. I have no problem with Mexican\'s, Latino\'s, Cubans, Muslims, African\'s or anyone else who wishes to call America home as I do. I just wish more of them would respect the sovernty that a true nation should have. I feel many of them nations I mentionend are way overdue for an upriseing, a civil war if you will. The people need to take charge of there own countrys if they ever wish to not have to leave the place they call home just to find the better life.
Aranis
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Wow you guys come on here talking up USA like everyone wants to be there. When the fact is your country is on a spiral down at this point in time and the only real ones that want to come to your poverty stricten, celebrity centered, egotistic nation are the ones that want to destroy you, the ones that believe the dream of going there and getting rich fast and last but not least those poor innocent souls who have not ever had the luxuries as most do outside their nations.
Close the borders? Yes please I would love to see you close your borders to Canada, really I would love to see it happen. As a Canadian nothing would make me happier then seeing less Americans come hunt, fish, and roam our great nation. While your at it close the trade to all those nations around you and soon you will find out how fast your country relies on others for resources. Not only resources but the tourisim from other nations to your big resorts, vacation hot spots.
I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about. If you ever were elected to your nations government you would just help that spiral to become a cliff. Perhaps that is for the better though.
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Originally posted by DepthBlade
Wow you guys come on here talking up USA like everyone wants to be there. When the fact is your country is on a spiral down at this point in time and the only real ones that want to come to your poverty stricten, celebrity centered, egotistic nation are the ones that want to destroy you, the ones that believe the dream of going there and getting rich fast and last but not least those poor innocent souls who have not ever had the luxuries as most do outside their nations.
Close the borders? Yes please I would love to see you close your borders to Canada, really I would love to see it happen. As a Canadian nothing would make me happier then seeing less Americans come hunt, fish, and roam our great nation. While your at it close the trade to all those nations around you and soon you will find out how fast your country relies on others for resources. Not only resources but the tourisim from other nations to your big resorts, vacation hot spots.
I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about. If you ever were elected to your nations government you would just help that spiral to become a cliff. Perhaps that is for the better though.
Haha you are not even American nor, I assume, have you ever been to America. Where do you get your information from? Our economy is, if I am not mistaken is over 5 times the size as Britains. And we are growing at still a very good rate... more than nearly every country in Europe. Yes many Americans tend to believe that our country is better then every other country on earth. Which is obviously not true. But if you really want to get into this conversation.. Im game
I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about.
*cough cough and you are talking about yourself?
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I don\'t know if you guys have read this letter written by Michal Moor yet but here it is: I found it amusing to say the least :).)
Dear Mr. Bush:
Any idea where all our helicopters are? It\'s Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.
Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren\'t there to begin with?
Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today,
there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn\'t want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don\'t like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!
I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don\'t let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?
And don\'t listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers\' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn\'t cut the money to fix those levees, there weren\'t going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!
On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn\'t stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.
There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.
No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It\'s not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C\'mon, they\'re black! I mean, it\'s not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don\'t make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!
You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.
P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st
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Wow that is awesome. Yeah Michael Moore is a nut but nicely said. And many of the questions are valid.
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Valbrandr I have a question for you; How much petrolium product do you consume in your day to day life?
Now take that number and multiply it by a few billion and you will have one of the main reasons why prices for petrolium products are on the rise.
Rember petrolium is a nonreplenishable reasourse the more that is used up the more it\'s value will rise.
I personally drive quite a ways every day to work, but I drive a small Kia Sephia to cut down on fuel consumption. I despise the people cruising around in H2\'s or Giant SUV\'s, but they are not the real problem - the real problem is OPEC and the Oil Refineries. Here\'s the facts jack. Oil supply has NOTHING to do with gas prices. If you beleive that then you are misinformed, stubborn or just plain stupid.
It costs OPEC $4.21 US dollars to drill for, market and ship one barrel of oil. They sell that same barrel of oil for approximately $70.01 currently. Considering the $4.21 average cost per barrel includes all expenses, that means that the majority of that is PURE profit. The oil industry doesn\'t follow the standard economic format of supply and demand, instead they market on demand only, - a monopoply because the workd is dependant on oil.
The next reason is patnents. In the late 50\'s and clear until the 70\'s, car manufactures invented carburators that acheived nearly 50-60 mpg, which is better than a hybrid car gets today. The patents for these were bought out by Sinclair, BP, and Exon, where the plans were destroyed. Better gas milage meant less profit for them too, so while its a smart business move it really hurt us.
And finally the gas prices are gouged by refinery companies. Intentionally. The reason gas prices in the US are so high is partiall because we lack the refining capicity. This is intentional. If we could refine tons of gas easily, then the price would go down, as would profits. If we had build plenty of refineries, then losing 8 refineries to the hurricane wouldn\'t have hurt us as much.
Ok wake up people we have been needing to open up Alaska for drilling for a long time.
Bush announced that he would open the US Alaskan Oil reserves to help gas prices. This is purly a PR move, as anyone knows that the oil supply here isn\'t what is making the gas prices go up after the hurricane. ITS THE LACK OF REFINERIES! More oil doesn\'t mean that more gas will be produced. In fact it doesn\'t change that ammount at all. The only positive spin from this is Wall Street, where investors stand to lose alot of money unless consumer confidence doesn\'t drop drastically as a result of the gas scare.
valbrandr, if you saw 10 million dollars that you could have simplyy by taking it, even if it would hurt other people, would you take it? don\'t say no, that would be a lie, there is no one who wouldn\'t, communism doesn\'t need people to be more intelligent, it needs people to be perfect, and that will never happen
Hmmm whats wrong with people these days? I have denied many better job offers because my current job allows me flexible scheduling so I can be with my family when necessary. Why do people care so much about money? Is that the American dream? I say screw that - my American dream is comming home and having a family filled with love. Yes providing is important - but a modest income is enough for me so long as I can watch my kid grow up.
Power, sex, pleasure, anger, revenge, the list goes on and on. And I am more than willing to bet that you have fallen prey to more than one of these greeds. After all there is no perfect man and there never will be.
Agreed no one is perfect and I am far far from perfect. There is one level though I can\' go to and that is hurting someone else to better myself. Self defense is an exception - someone is pointing a gun at my wife, they are either going to have to kill me or they will be killed. You kill my wife, I will hunt you down - so revenge maybe, but revenge isn\'t without provocation. I\'m not tough enough to just let someone who killed my wife or baby just go, and I\'m not going to try to \"capture them\" for the cops. Screw that, either they are going down or me. :) I\'m sounding like a really pleasant fellow right now... the point I\'m trying to make is that we all have our weaknesses, but I do believe that with the support of the pople around you in a good society, real communism could work, as long as the necessary paradigm shift occurred. I think communism doesn\'t rely on people being perfect, just people believing in the sytem is enough.
I was hoping to pick your brain about what you thought about the Democrats, but you stated your not one. This makes me wonder what you thought was going to happen at the last election. What was it that made you so mad you thing there should be a Bush bashin thread every month?
Well, I\'ll admit personally I was an anybody but Bush person. I liked Kerry only slightly more actually as he seemed just a fake. Bush had a stupid smirk all the time and Kerry always seemed to be acting grandly. Bullshit I say. Personally I say screw both major parties. Both are corrupt organizations who are NOT looking out for the common person - neither one is. Some might promote different values - republicans TEND (not always) think things are completely black and white - i.e. abortion, gay marriage, etc, while democrats see more grey shades. Probabily neither are right. I\'d like to see someone truely progressive and different in office - not just President, but across the board. How many poor people ar e sitting in congress, or in the Oval Office? To me thats descrimination based on income - I don\'t believe that the average rich politican represents me very well. I love America but something has to change - the voice of the people has been lost. Each president is a face to a Party, a puppet of sorts. All blurting out what they think YOU want to hear. I\'d rather someone not like that at all.
Be glad you aren\'t living in Europe gas prices in the Uk are close to hitting $6.00 a gallon
That doesn\'t affect people as badly in the UK because of geographical distances. The average commute for an American vs a European is way longer for an American. Also being so big physically there isn\'t much of a nationwide mass transit system.
I am an American. I beleave in helping anyone who helps themselves as well.
Thats good and I\'m not arguing with waht you said in your post it just sparked a thought for me. I have some republican friends who hate social programs. They do not believe that the government should be able to tax them to give money to poor people. They believe anyone who is homeless (or at least most of them) are just lazy - and not that they shouldn\'t be helped but that the gov shouldn\'t tell them what to do with their money - wealth redistributation = bad to them. Its an arguable point. But for one alot of people who are homeless are mentally ill:
Approximately 22% of the single adult homeless population suffers from some form of severe and persistent mental illness (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 2001). Despite the disproportionate number of severely mentally ill people among the homeless population, increases in homelessness are not attributable to the release of severely mentally ill people from institutions.
and another factor:
For families and individuals struggling to pay the rent, a serious illness or disability can start a downward spiral into homelessness, beginning with a lost job, depletion of savings to pay for care, and eventual eviction. In 2000, approximately 38.7 million Americans had no health care insurance (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1998b). Nearly a third of persons living in poverty had no health insurance of any kind. The coverage held by many others would not carry them through a catastrophic illness.
Homelessness results from a complex set of circumstances which require people to choose between food, shelter, and other basic needs. Only a concerted effort to ensure jobs that pay a living wage, adequate support for those who cannot work, affordable housing, and access to health care will bring an end to homelessness.
The problem is also hypocracy. Alot of people wouldn\'t choose to do charitable things with their money, so the Gov has to use taxes for it or the amount of homelessness and poverty would be even worse.
Just my $70.01 worth
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Originally posted by DepthBlade
Wow you guys come on here talking up USA like everyone wants to be there. When the fact is your country is on a spiral down at this point in time and the only real ones that want to come to your poverty stricten, celebrity centered, egotistic nation are the ones that want to destroy you, the ones that believe the dream of going there and getting rich fast and last but not least those poor innocent souls who have not ever had the luxuries as most do outside their nations.
Close the borders? Yes please I would love to see you close your borders to Canada, really I would love to see it happen. As a Canadian nothing would make me happier then seeing less Americans come hunt, fish, and roam our great nation. While your at it close the trade to all those nations around you and soon you will find out how fast your country relies on others for resources. Not only resources but the tourisim from other nations to your big resorts, vacation hot spots.
I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about. If you ever were elected to your nations government you would just help that spiral to become a cliff. Perhaps that is for the better though.
Haha you are not even American nor, I assume, have you ever been to America. Where do you get your information from? Our economy is, if I am not mistaken is over 5 times the size as Britains. And we are growing at still a very good rate... more than nearly every country in Europe. Yes many Americans tend to believe that our country is better then every other country on earth. Which is obviously not true. But if you really want to get into this conversation.. Im game
I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about.
*cough cough and you are talking about yourself?
Yes I am sure you are all knowledgable about your nations economy, you honestly think your that self sufficent? I know that my country supplies your lumber, majority of your \"Beef\", over 1/4 of your northern states power supply (I work at one of the power plants). There is probally more I am not naming off, and its common sense that every nation is dependant off the rest. So to say your economy which might be rather large is so great to withstand on its own and wouldn\'t need anyone elses would be bull. Your economy isn\'t getting better with this hurricane you have just lost a good percent of your oil, when those oil platforms went bye bye. So whats this mean invade another country and blame it on terrorism?
*Cough cough no I was talking about you in particular.
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Yes Efflixe I find it amuseing to say the least. This thing (I loath to call him a person) is one of those that twist facts to make them sound different or even worse than what they are Just like the looting and gunfire in New Orleans Michal moore is yet another sighn og what is wrong with people today.
And one more thing. If those mothers so intent on dishonering the memorys of their dead children who died fighting for freadom are so much better than him; why pray tell aren\'t they in New Orleans helping out instead of still traveling across country trying to defame others?
Edit: Depthblad I don\'t know where you got that but Canada does not supply the magority of our beef. In fact the magority of beef raised in the world is in the remaining great cattle ranges here in the US (you know the ones where everything is still free range) some of these areas cover nearly entire states. On the other hand care to guess where Canada and most other nations get all their corn, wheat ect: thats right the bread baskett.
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Yes I am sure you are all knowledgable about your nations economy, you honestly think your that self sufficent? I know that my country supplies your lumber, majority of your \"Beef\", over 1/4 of your northern states power supply (I work at one of the power plants). There is probally more I am not naming off, and its common sense that every nation is dependant off the rest. So to say your economy which might be rather large is so great to withstand on its own and wouldn\'t need anyone elses would be bull. Your economy isn\'t getting better with this hurricane you have just lost a good percent of your oil, when those oil platforms went bye bye. So whats this mean invade another country and blame it on terrorism?
Who said anything about the United States being self sufficient? I said nothing of it. Every country in this world to an extent is not self sufficient. We have integrated economies. However the US is one of the better off countries in this catagory. And why do you throw statistics out there that you have no proof of? And stop being stupid Depth.. I am not even on Americas side. I thought the war in Iraq was absolutely wrong. The US government trumped up charges and yes they got their war. But I assume you dont know anything about that either so lets just stop here.. unless you can come up with something a little less biased and a little more truthful.
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No you guys said that you would be fine and wanted to see your nations borders closed to the surrounding countries. So if you close the borders, trade will close as well. Its funny I state a few things and suddenly statistics are required, yet you guys been talking shit for 3 pages with no proof what so ever. Though I don\'t mind proving things only makes you look dumber.
Hatchnet buddy if you would follow up on the BSE Crisis you would know that Canada does provide alot of Beef Export, if we weren\'t a big supplier there would be no problems like there is with the border being closed (Was closed) and the government whining like little girls on both sides. Yes I probally estimated to high but there still is a good percent for the size of your nation being sent over.
http://cahenews.wsu.edu/RELEASES/2005/05048.htm
http://www.infoexport.gc.ca/
http://www.exportcanada.com/
As for the corn thing, I am not saying who is the bigger economy and who is cool for exporting what to what countries. To get back to the original conversation they were talking about closing borders around USA to stop immigration and what not, but like I said you close borders you close trade. You close trade EVERYONE suffers and your big ole economy wouldn\'t save you from it.
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4% Thats laughable realy it is.... Besides any beef that comes over the border will be used there localy in the northern border states. Its not realy practical to transport perishables like beef over great distances once it\'s been butchered. As my family has a small cattle farm in Oklahoma I do actualy have a little knowledge in the matters of cattle and beef and Oklahoma alone provides well over 4% of the nations beef
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Out of curiosity where do you get the idea that a closed border means no trade? During WWII the US borders were closed and Japanese rounded up an stuck into internment camps. We were trying to keep out spies, (though that doesn\'t necessarily justify all the actions in my eyes). However surprisingly we were still trading with people. A closed border usually means that it is closed to immigration, and that more security is placed on the border to secure illegal immigration. A closed border doesn\'t necessarily mean that we put up a wall and nothing can go in or out. You have options when you close a border.
Interdependancies are a good thing, because they force cooperation between countries that otherwise might not even bother trying, however haveing a single country depend on another single country puts yourself at their mercy unless the dependancy is completely mutual.
Its funny I state a few things and suddenly statistics are required, yet you guys been talking shit for 3 pages with no proof what so ever.
The difference is that we start noticing facts that look like they were made up - I\'d rather everyone cited sources so we know its not complete bullshit, but I don\'t do it either always, so its kind of moot point and thus can\'t really cast the first stone.
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Originally posted by DepthBlade
No you guys said that you would be fine and wanted to see your nations borders closed to the surrounding countries. So if you close the borders, trade will close as well. Its funny I state a few things and suddenly statistics are required, yet you guys been talking shit for 3 pages with no proof what so ever. Though I don\'t mind proving things only makes you look dumber.
Hatchnet buddy if you would follow up on the BSE Crisis you would know that Canada does provide alot of Beef Export, if we weren\'t a big supplier there would be no problems like there is with the border being closed (Was closed) and the government whining like little girls on both sides. Yes I probally estimated to high but there still is a good percent for the size of your nation being sent over.
http://cahenews.wsu.edu/RELEASES/2005/05048.htm
http://www.infoexport.gc.ca/
http://www.exportcanada.com/
As for the corn thing, I am not saying who is the bigger economy and who is cool for exporting what to what countries. To get back to the original conversation they were talking about closing borders around USA to stop immigration and what not, but like I said you close borders you close trade. You close trade EVERYONE suffers and your big ole economy wouldn\'t save you from it.
Your post shows how little you know about the situation. America basically has closed borders with Mexico. Mexicans cannot move freely back and forth. NAFTA is set up that way. A free movement of goods and money but not people. You can have closed borders in such a way and trade does not suffer.. thats why it is set up like it is. And the reason you need info is because of the nature of your posts. If you are going to make wild claims then back them up. Not giving us links just about the beef supply or whatever. But getting back to the original arguement about how America cannot be self sufficient. If any nation could be it would be the US. We can supply nearly half of all oil consumption here. While most countries in Europe have no oil whatsoever. Luckily Britain and Norway found as much as they have in the North Sea.. but without that very little if any oil. That is why Iraq is important. Not because America neccessarily needs the oil... but our allies do: Europe, Japan, and China all need enough oil.
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I truly believe if you close borders to Canada your going to get trade cut right out. As it is once you guys had that temporary ban on beef that recently got dismissed, you pissed off enough of the politicians. They have things on our news an radio about cutting or increasing prices on the lumber and the medication we supply. Back in WW2 things were alot different we were all on the same side against a common enemy. Its become a whole new ballpark.
4 percent seems like a low number, but that is alot in terms of economy.
Valbrandr you can say all you want about your oil theorys but only God knows the truth on that topic.
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I had a sort of different expirence today. I was playing a good game of cube, and a new player joined. He was a hurricane victim from New Orleans, and was now staying with his aunt and uncle in Texas. He said that his father was a Cop but he killed himself, everyone else died. He was staying in the arena/stadium where alot of people were. He said people were just going to the top and jumping. I asked him how someone deals with something like that, and he said \"You don\'t., I just play games and listen to music.\" It occurred to me that I was extremely extremely lucky, I have a beautiful wife, a beautiful baby, a nice house, 2 nice cars, and wonderful friends and family. I have the luxury of arguing about the hurricane and oil. I realized that doing so right now is petty.
OK, what we need to do here in America is to help however we can. The time for debate and polics is not now, people are dying. People are still dying, and the best and worst of humanity is showing. Things there are bad, people shooting at rescue helecopters...Civilization is but a thin veneer.
Sorry - this arguement is stupid now - later perhaps we can go back and look at what went wrong and right and try to learn from it, but now the focus needs to be on the people. People are the most important thing here, and the recovery will not be quick . It reminds me how fragile life is and how we rarely see the big picture. Its time to roll up the sleeves and do what we can. Call red cross and donate, do something, but lets quit sitting on our asses arguing.
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Uggg, Efflixi Aduro, you quoted the hack-that-shal-not-get-named wack-o. I suspect you did that just to stir the pot of steaming goo that is this thread.
For that you desirve a pie in the face.
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Depth on the scale where talking about here 4% is a very low number. And as for that threat of raising prices; don\'t make me laugh because thats all that is is a threat thats been used every time Canada hasn\'t got it\'s way so by now its been used way to much to be believed. And if you think Canada would ever completly cut off trade with the US you are a fool; while it would hurt us we could easily servive without Canada while you on the other hand could not servive without the US. In fact that very threat has been used to keep Canada in line before.
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Survive without USA? No I would say living life without USA would be very achievable, it wouldn\'t be as exciting celebrity picnic would be but it would be more then achievable. Just think lower obecity, lower crime rate, lower idiots (President, Senate, every politician).
4% is alot like I said in economy, 4% is worth more then your life in most peoples views.
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Originally posted by DepthBlade
Survive without USA? No I would say living life without USA would be very achievable, it wouldn\'t be as exciting celebrity picnic would be but it would be more then achievable. Just think lower obecity, lower crime rate, lower idiots (President, Senate, every politician).
4% is alot like I said in economy, 4% is worth more then your life in most peoples views.
You truely know very little don\'t you? As I said on a global economic scale 4% of one nations specific produce (esspesialy when your talking about a nation like the US) is very small.
And as for Canada being able to survive without the US just go take a look at the makers mark on just about everything in your house. Despite the large number of Japans and Chinas most of it is going to say \"Made In The USA\"; esspesialy things like food, furniture, and paper goods.
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Nah I know alittle, but don\'t act like I know all.
Like I said the luxuries of life would limited without USA but its still all to easy to live without \"Yall\". Even so if the states wouldn\'t provide those luxuries plenty of other countries who would take the opportunity to jump on a sale.
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not many european people in this \'heated discussion\', so I\'ll take that side :)
Two points that holds almost all my hate for the average american people, and that I use to construct my thoughts about that country:
First point: US has the media system of a dictatorship, so try not to believe what you read or see on TV too easily. Most of your views are biaised, try to read news from other countries, I guess you could get some from canada or UK or australia...
Second point: US\'s economy is strong because US accumulated lots of money with slaves, then with World Wars, keeps a high rate of people (when I mean high rate, I mean a rate that would never be accepted in Europe) in poverty, have a big population managed by the same media corporation making a big market easy to control, and dont give a f*ck about environment.
Nowadays, Europe is in crisis, not because of oil, but because UK, France and Germany have national political problems to solve before being able to handle the new Europe, that also makes the US stronger, but that wont last for more than 5 years. I also read somewhere that Canada had some trade agreements with US that will end in a few years, making Canada a threat for the stability of US, so dont think you have the uber economy of doom, you just have the media to show you how strong you are.
As for the gas problem, dont worry, Europe, Canada and South America have big stocks of refined oil that is being shipped to US (it\'s called strategic ressources or something like that). Talking about oil, dont whine too much you seem to have the cheapest gas in the world :P
Someone said something about meat not being shipped far away because it\'s perishable (<- however you spell that), that\'s crap, a big part of french meat is from Argentina and Chili.
Now back on topic, about the people dying in Louisiane, that\'s really sad, but it was predicted, look at what happened in Japan, although the cyclon wasnt as strong as the US one, they were prepared, and they spend a lot of money, strenghtening the-things-that-hold-the-sea-back which wasnt the case in US. Sure you have money, but you use it to go to war instead of taking care of your people ... that\'s sad. And you know, many many more people die each day in Africa, and you dont make a thread for it. Ouganda gives $200k to US to help for the cyclon, it seems a ridiculous amount but it\'s enormous for them, and in the past, america helped them by lending them money at very high rates, which partly explains why they cant get out of poverty, they give two third of each dollar they produce to pay their debts... that\'s how you\'re rich, be proud of it.
As for sending people armed with M16 instead of shovels and food, that\'s exactly how I would have seen america behave in a Simpsons episod, you guys arent even originals :/
Good luck to people in need, I\'ve donated to the red cross, hope that helps
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Originally posted by Monketh
The most obvious solution is for people to stop purchasing SUVs and turn off the lights at night, but I don\'t see that happening soon. Seriously, the raw amount of SUVs in my area is just frightening.
BTW: At 14,000 gallons of water to one gallon of ethanol, ethanol is decidely not the solution.
Edit: I\'m sure you\'re all aware that the media doesn\'t need a hurricane to distract it. Hurricanes, Tsunamis, and other acts of Earth are not secret ploys by the Bush Administration. After all, the war\'s been going on for a while now, and the media\'s getting bored with it.
I blame the SUVs on clinton. Hear me out! He forced laws through congress that made it so that all vehicles except SUVs and minivans released had to get over 25 mpg... He shouldn\'t have made the exemption. :D
I think it was 25, anyway.
But I agree....the real key to conserving what we have is to do just that--conserve it. I know people who leave their televisions and lights on even if they aren\'t home. o.o Or who leave the water running as they brush their teeth. It\'s so freaking wasteful.
And once a solution becomes very evident due to the work of the few who are willing to fix the problem, the ones who are causing it will act like they were responsible for it and hog all the credit and things will get worse and the cycle will continue.
Such is humanity. :/
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It could also have been that the economy was doing extremely well under the Clinton administration. Gas prices were extremely low too, there were the fewest number of people on welfare since very recently after it bagan. It was a bit like the roaring 20\'s. People but big gas guzzling SUV\'s because they liked the space or thought they were cool and fun and why not because the gas was affordable! So I\'d say its clintons fault to, but more for running a really good economy HOW DARE HE! lol anyhoo.
Good luck to people in need, I\'ve donated to the red cross, hope that helps
Yes, thank goodness for generous people. I hope everyone who can contribute, does so. People are still in dire conditions.
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well a hurricane that size only happens once for you Americans and anyone else that has hurricanes that size like us Aussies :P. Karl Kruselnicky or however you spell it said on the \'Today Show\' on channel 7 here in Australia that storms that size only ever happen once :D
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I am sure your just kidding arround when you say it is all Clintons fault. I am not a big Clinton fan, but blaming our former president, or our current president for the price of gas or for bad laws, is misplaced. You should find out who your representative and senators are, and blame them, or if you need an easier target, blame our society in general
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My comments were mostly satire. I though the thread could use a little humor, it nice now and then. I do dislike blaming society though, although I realize that most people are extremely affected by it, myself included. If I had grown up a cannibal I would think that was normal, so our own ideas of these things are purely relative to upbrining, with a little independant thought of our own to work out the details of out thoughts and beliefs. Blaming society in general just isn\'t as productive as finding out who your reps are and contacting them as you said :)
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econd point: US\'s economy is strong because US accumulated lots of money with slaves, then with World Wars, keeps a high rate of people (when I mean high rate, I mean a rate that would never be accepted in Europe) in poverty, have a big population managed by the same media corporation making a big market easy to control, and dont give a f*ck about environment.
About our poverty rates.. yes they are too high because they should be zero. However in this regard you cannot compare the US to any European country. Because no country in Europe is going to have as strong of an influx of immigrants that the US has. In which quite a few comes from quite a poor country (Mexico).. or course when these people get here they will be living in poverty which is going to make the statistics a bit messed up. And whoever believes that America is controlled by a center cell media corporation then you would be very wrong. Here there are a million different sides taken you just have to find it. From Fox news to CNN to BBC whcih are quite different from eachother. Yes our problem is the media.. for the most part it is controlled by a small group of elites. In which their views guide the direction of the news if you understand what I am saying.
In addition it is not like America is against the environment oer se. Capitalism trumps the environment is the problem. Every country on the planet has done something to the enviroement in order to \"Help\" themselves.
Survive without USA? No I would say living life without USA would be very achievable, it wouldn\'t be as exciting celebrity picnic would be but it would be more then achievable. Just think lower obecity, lower crime rate, lower idiots (President, Senate, every politician).
Why do you keep bringing up the celebrity factor? Where do you live.. Britain correct? You have a Queen.. which is the biggest celebrity in the world.. So as Americans love their celebrities.. you love your Queen, Princes, Princesses and whatever else you may have not even mentioning your celebrity stars and Knights.
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You know its time to stop posting when you tell someone they are from Britian when they clearly said in a earlier post they are Canadian, maybe you just read parts of it that you find easier to flame :P Why do I keep saying stuff about celebrities because once again this hits on Media, they are basicly the unofficial leaders of your country. They influence so much and your country more then others is eyes open to everything and anything stupid a celebrity icon does.
/me views Leji and cheers \"Reinforcements have Arrived\" :D
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Damn why does everything turn into a flame usa contest.
Fepth I hate celebtiyies and if I had the oppertunity I would kick every one of their asses. Im not influenced by them in any way.
Iv seriously grown tired of all these useless flame america comments people post here.
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Efflixi: cause US has many reasons to be flamed I guess :P
Valbrandr: EU has a very high immigration rate too, what do you think ? that all the people from Africa who cross the sea to get to Italy or Spain just come to visit ? And what about people from Asia coming in full cargo ships ? Each and every rich country has a high immigration rate, I\'ll have to check the rates later to compare, or maybe you could do it ? :)
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UK rocks you all..... especially the French. (:P)
Half of us hate the queen and all her relatives.
Communism really sucks.
The US government didn\'t spawn this storm out of nowhere to try and cover up Iraq a bit.
Bush was the best guy to vote at the time. Everyone else seemed false. Bush is a bit lacking in skills, but not false. :) (I mean, who the hell wins _3_ purple hearts without any horrible scars... most people don\'t earn 1 and live to show it.)
A perfect social system should reward people who are very clever, and/or work hard and contribute their maximum to society. The harder your job, the more you earn on top of a good minimum standard given to the people who work hard. Society should look after those incapable of contributing. Everyone else can die.
Communism with those additions works perfectly... I call it Xordanism. :D
Oil prices rose because there\'s no longer much oil coming out of the southern states, as well as a decrease coming out of the middle east... none of which is due to shortages.
Michael Moore is a liberal moonbat.
And that\'s my contribution :P
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I am doing that as we speak.. having trouble finding all the info I want but here is some info about the United States :
n 1994, the United States granted legal residency, asylum or refugee status to 804,416 foreigners. While illegal immigration numbers can\'t be pinpointed with accuracy, at least 300,000 people are believed to enter unlawfully each year.
-Washinton Assiociated Press : 1996
I understand this is from 96 but it was the top article at CNN.com... Google had nothing but crap and I am very tired right now. Just checked our government site and they only go up to 1996 as well.. so I will assume that this data is very close to accurate give or take a hundred thousand.
Let me get some more info then I will update
Edit: My grandfather has 3 purple hearts and atleast one bronze star.. but yeah he has plenty of scars
And Depth.. I saw where you worked. but for some reason I thought you were from the UK. Oh well I guess we all make mistakes :P
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Well, when it comes to clebrities, most of the time I am very cynical. When a actor or actress gets on the TV and says we end poverty, cure cancer, stop terror, or declair themself scientologist\'s, I not only ignore them, but I try to avoid movies that they make.
On the other hand, when one of them says that they are greatfull for America giving them everything they have, and that if it was not for the fans, they would still be washing dishes at Denny\'s then I think they are credible.
FYI, I did notice that Depth was from Canada, and worked in the power generation industry. Hopefully Val will notice sometime soon.
Edit [ Nice post Xordan ]
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Translations from France government figures:
Immigration in France: 0.3% of the population each year
which is approximately the same figure as US (I\'m not sure about US pop so I can be accurate)
Europe is the first destination for migrants in the world. The top three countries being, Spain, Italy and UK
Bleh they dont like France :P
Xordan: Bush is the biggest liar I\'ve ever seen on TV, you think he\'s fine as a president ? fine for me ... As for communism, the idea is just perfect, everyone gets a minimum + something proportionnal to the work performed... the only problem is that it cant be realized with human beings, we just all have to transform to ants, and we will live happy :)
As for Michael Moore, you cant blame him for showing how stupid some things are in US, especially the president... There are stupid things in every countries, he just chose to show the ones in US.
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Oh sure, mother nature decided to go easy with Bush and secure is political
career, come on, if Americans wouldn\'t like his politics they wouldn\'t elect him
another time. Stronger countries gets more, now they has Iraq oil in their fist,
good for them, one of strongers human instincts is craving for power and for
possession, there was Egypt, Persia, Babylon, China, Greeks, Romans, Polish,
Russians, now there is USA\'s turn, so blubbering they did wrong invading a
country full of fanatics and psychopates to get oil is something completly
natural. Surely that they did it for word peace is silly excuse, everyone knows
what it is about and Americans seems to like it. Everyone would. Surely that
what American soldiers are doing with Iraqis is below humanity and no soberly
thinking persons will accept it. Anyway, human is an animal, we are artists,
scientists, heroes, engineers, but first of all we are just the animals, and that
hurricane only shows what happens with the people in extreme situations.
When you want to survive, you are not an artist, scientist or engineer, you are
just one of many animals who everyday fight to stay alive and there is nothing
unusual here, so I don\'t blame Americans from New Orlean who behaved like
a bunch of cased beasts and I can asure you, you all would behave in the
same way in such situation, especially that Bush doesn\'t care.
Regards.
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Originally posted by Platyna
When you want to survive, you are not an artist, scientist or engineer, you are
just one of many animals who everyday fight to stay alive and there is nothing
unusual here, so I don\'t blame Americans from New Orlean who behaved like
a bunch of cased beasts and I can asure you, you all would behave in the
same way in such situation, especially that Bush doesn\'t care.
Yup, it\'s every man for himself when it comes down to survival for most people. The more intellegent ones stick together and work in groups, but the concept is still the same. Those who think that humans are above that level usually die.
leji: Jacque Chirac is the biggest jackass I\'ve ever seen on TV (Yes, even more than Michael Moore), and you think he\'s fine for president? I don\'t think that Bush is that bad. At least he does what he truely believes is good for his country... even if what he believes isn\'t that smart. :P
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At least he does what he truely believes is good for his country... even if what he believes isn\'t that smart.
Well Im not sure about you, but I\'d rather have a leader that has evil intentions but ends up doing intelligent, good things, then a leader with good intentions that ends up doing stupid and dangerous things. Bush\'s good intentions dont really mean anything- It\'s his actions and desicions that count. Having good intentions doesnt really cut it when you\'re the leader of a country of 260 million people.
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Well Im not sure about you, but I\'d rather have a leader that has evil intentions but ends up doing intelligent, good things, then a leader with good intentions that ends up doing stupid and dangerous things. Bush\'s good intentions dont really mean anything- It\'s his actions and desicions that count. Having good intentions doesnt really cut it when you\'re the leader of a country of 260 million people.
Sure, but you don\'t get leaders that have evil intentions but end up doing intelligent, good things. :) I don\'t think Bush is a great president, but he was better than anyone else running. I just hope that there\'s better candidates next elections.
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Originally posted by Platyna
Surely that
what American soldiers are doing with Iraqis is below humanity and no soberly
thinking persons will accept it.
Care to elaborate on this?
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Sure, but you don\'t get leaders that have evil intentions but end up doing intelligent, good things. I don\'t think Bush is a great president, but he was better than anyone else running. I just hope that there\'s better candidates next elections.
Yes, well I was just saying that to point out that intentions mean nothing. I would have voted for Gore or Kerry any day over Bush, because I think they would have easily made a better president. But thats conjecture and opinion, so Im not really going to argue about it. If Bush was the best america could come up with, then I honestly feel sorry for them.
Care to elaborate on this?
(From Amnesty International)
Hundreds of detainees continued to be held without charge or trial at the US naval base in Guant?namo Bay, Cuba. Thousands of people were detained during US military and security operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and routinely denied access to their families and lawyers.
Military investigations were initiated or conducted into allegations of torture and ill-treatment of detainees by US personnel in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and into reports of deaths in custody and ill-treatment by US forces elsewhere in Iraq, and in Afghanistan and Guant?namo. Evidence came to light that the US administration had sanctioned interrogation techniques that violated the UN Convention against Torture. Pre-trial military commission hearings opened in Guant?namo but were suspended pending a US court ruling.
In August, the Independent Panel to Review Department of Defense Detention Operations, appointed by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld following the publication of photographs of torture and ill-treatment committed by US personnel in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (see below), reported that since the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, about 50,000 people had been detained during US military and security operations.
US forces operated some 25 detention facilities in Afghanistan and 17 in Iraq (see below). Detainees were routinely denied access to lawyers and families. In Afghanistan, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) had access only to some detainees in Bagram and Kandahar air bases.
Detentions in undisclosed locations
A number of detainees, reported to be those considered by the US authorities to have high intelligence value, were alleged to remain in secret detention in undisclosed locations. In some cases, their situation amounted to ?disappearance?. Some individuals were believed to have been held in secret locations for as long as three years. The refusal or failure of the US authorities to clarify the whereabouts or status of the detainees, leaving them outside the protection of the law for a prolonged period, clearly violated the standards of the UN Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance.
Allegations that the US authorities were involved in the secret transfer of detainees between countries, exposing detainees to the risk of torture and ill-treatment, continued.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Originally posted by Platyna
Surely that
what American soldiers are doing with Iraqis is below humanity and no soberly
thinking persons will accept it.
Care to elaborate on this?
Sure, CNN and NBC published kinda not nice photos...posting direct links here
is not a good idea though, considering there are underages reading it so
I suggest Google.
Regards.
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
If Bush was the best america could come up with, then I honestly feel sorry for them.
Agreed.. and I feel sorry for them.
Remember than _some_ of the soldiers were doing those things. I don\'t think you can look at what the few were doing and put a bad stamp on them all.
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Originally posted by steuben
i was thinking about this earlier today.
that hurricane was a little bit convient. it is exactly what the bush government needed to distracted the populace from the quagemire that is iraq. the us military spawned that storm. the then directed it to a plausible, but rarely hit, location.
presto, instant distraction. americans are no longer thinking about iraq. they now see bush and the republicans as rescuers that helped to rebuild new orleans and the area.
*removes tin foil hat*
If it was an election year, Katrina would have cost Bush the White House. This is one disaster they can\'t blame on Clinton or CNN.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
If it was an election year, Katrina would have cost Bush the White House. This is one disaster they can\'t blame on Clinton or CNN.
Um, I don\'t think you can blame a hurricane on anybody...
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Shush Xordan don\'t you know anything? You can blame anyone for anything, without proof or regard on the internet.
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Originally posted by Platyna
Originally posted by derwoodly
Originally posted by Platyna
Surely that
what American soldiers are doing with Iraqis is below humanity and no soberly
thinking persons will accept it.
Care to elaborate on this?
Sure, CNN and NBC published kinda not nice photos...posting direct links here
is not a good idea though, considering there are underages reading it so
I suggest Google.
Regards.
You say American Soldiers are \"below humanity\", and what do I get as proof, \"kinda not nice photo\'s\" and some other random posts about Abu Ghraib.
What kind of interigation should we use on combatants? Of all the horrors that humans have done to each other, why are the ones that the US does, more criminal than what every one else does.
What country *has* complied with UN rules? None, so why should we be any different.
I am not suggesting that We get a free pass on human rights. What I would like to see is an end to the wild overstated acusations flung at the USA like monkey poo from wild caged monkeys.
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You say American Soldiers are \"below humanity\", and what do I get as proof, \"kinda not nice photo\'s\" and some other random posts about Abu Ghraib.
Read my post then. There is your proof. Or go to Amnesty International and read their Yearly report on the U.S. (Its avaliable from their website).
What kind of interigation should we use on combatants? Of all the horrors that humans have done to each other, why are the ones that the US does, more criminal than what every one else does.
What the U.S does to its prisioners is no worse then what Sadaam Hussien did, granted. But Sadaam Hussien is being held for war crimes and will most probablly be sentenced to death for what he did.
What country *has* complied with UN rules? None, so why should we be any different.
This is an ignorant, stupid view. You are saying that because everyone breaks some rule, then you should be allowed to do what you want? True, nearly all countries have broken some rules at some point- but they are all subseqently critisied for it, and in some cases, the Governments are deposed and the leaders sentenced. Furthermore, there are very few countries that are accused of such serious crimes as contravening the Geneva Convention, UN Convention against Torture and the UN Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance, to name a few. The U.S invaded Iraq on the pretext of disposing of a regime that had committed crimes against humanity against the people of Iraq (since the WMD charge was false), and so to say \"Well they did It so we can\" is just ridiculous.
I am not suggesting that We get a free pass on human rights.
On the contrary, you are saying that you should get a free pass on human rights. Your previous paragraph said \"What country *has* complied with UN rules? None, so why should we be any different. \" You just said that your country should be \"no different\" in not having to comply with UN rules. UN rules cover human rights. You are, effectivly suggesting with that statement, that the Human rights abuses of the U.S be overlooked. I do not think the Human Rights abuses of any country should be overlooked, regardless of wether \"everybody else is doing it\" (which they aren\'t).
What I would like to see is an end to the wild overstated acusations flung at the USA like monkey poo from wild caged monkeys.
And i\'d like to see an end to the ridiculous attempts at justifying the wrongdoings of some people in the american administration and army. But it obviously isnt going to happen.
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Originally posted by DepthBlade
Shush Xordan don\'t you know anything? You can blame anyone for anything, without proof or regard on the internet.
Oh yeah
<.<
>.>
:P
And when nobody can stop a country doing what it wants to do, then that country can technically do what it wants to do. :) We can\'t have all these laws and stuff when there\'s no penalty for breaking them. There\'s no country in the world that can stop the US from doing what it wants, same goes for the UK.
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Your idea of below humanity is different than mine. Perhaps that is because my opinions are ignorant and stupid as you say.
\"What country *has* complied with UN rules? None,
so why should we be any different.\"
Since you quoted this twice, I seem to have hit on some sort of nerve, I apologize. It was a rather flipent remark.
My question to you then is. How do you propose we capture and question Terroists? From my point of view it looks like were are the only ones who are even trying to uphold the Geneva conventions. When our humanity was called into question we changed our procedures, we have allowed Guant?namo to be inspected. That is certainly more than anyone else has done.
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the good old take the piss outa everyones country.
remeber guys. do not let people, the government or other crap speek for the people in the country. *dont quote me on this one, im defending general views, even if its not evident here*
remeber cyclones are random natural events.
i feel sorry for the people there and im amazed the water leves are still high.
whats done is done, and on a positive note the world can learn from it.
on a random note, what is with alot of american talk about bush ?, im not an american so i wouldent know.
anways, good luck to you america.
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Here is a recap:
New Orleans is below sea level, protected by 100 year old levys
Cat 4/5 Huricane ran right over the top of the city
Levy broke the next day, flooding the city.
1000\'s of poor, mosty black, citizens were stuck in the city for days.
Many people are now pointing fingures at who is to blame for the levy\'s failure, and the slow response from the government in evacuating the remaining citizens.
Most of those fingures are aimed at the President, Mr. Bush.
The orginal poster thought that this disaster some how took the presure off Bush and that he somehow had something to do with it.
The thread is now about how Bush is evil, and the USA is full of morons, not excluding the author of this post.
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Evacuating an area larger than the whole UK... yeah that\'s a easy 2 day job.... :D
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I am sure Bush will not escape without mud on him. I read an artical by Kathleen Parker about what mistakes Bush made, and I would have to agree with her. His \"folksy\" speaches do more harm than good.
I am only defending Bush against wacky, he caused the huricane arguements.
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wow, that theory is so great that i laughed my arse off at the utter stupidity of the idea...
although i am against the government and i do know it covers things up, i dont think we have the capasity to control the weather, personally i haven\'t payed crap for attention to that place.. im sorry but im fed up with the drama of this country, but the thing is, i feel for the human and animal life, but the not the material loss. and further more if we wanted a distraction we would have nuked the city and blamed it on korea
[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Your idea of below humanity is different than mine. Perhaps that is because my opinions are ignorant and stupid as you say.
\"What country *has* complied with UN rules? None,
so why should we be any different.\"
Since you quoted this twice, I seem to have hit on some sort of nerve, I apologize. It was a rather flipent remark.
My question to you then is. How do you propose we capture and question Terroists? From my point of view it looks like were are the only ones who are even trying to uphold the Geneva conventions. When our humanity was called into question we changed our procedures, we have allowed Guant?namo to be inspected. That is certainly more than anyone else has done.
The reason the US needs to comply with UN regulations is because we are the US. If we dont follow then no one else will. We are the country with the power of persuasion to get others onboard. And in my opinion the US is stupid for not doing so. Well and about your \"America is the only one doing something about terrorism\" a big part of why there is terrorism/ acts of terrror is because of the US.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
We are the country with the power of persuasion to get others onboard.
No, you are the country with the biggest amount of guns and largest economy. You have no persuasive power other than the fact that you can invade almost any country you like, or cut off trade with that country toally screwing it over. 8)
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everything Xordan just said:
=
Power of persuasion :P
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And when nobody can stop a country doing what it wants to do, then that country can technically do what it wants to do. :) We can\'t have all these laws and stuff when there\'s no penalty for breaking them. There\'s no country in the world that can stop the US from doing what it wants, same goes for the UK.
Dont say that to loudly ...
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
.... a big part of why there is terrorism/ acts of terror is because of the US.
I hope you don\'t mean that we deserved to have our citizens kidnapped and blown up.
Help educate me on this one. I thought we were relative latecomers in the whole Jews and Muslims struggle. When did this mess become our entire fault? Is it because we use all the oil? When China uses more Oil than the USA will the problem be all their fault then?
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It doesnt have anything to do with oil per se. And truthfully not one of us here is inteligent enough to explain what is happening. It is what we have done in the past for one. For example the US helping Afghanistan defend itself against the Soviet Union... and what did we do to Afghanistan after the USSR was defeated? We left their country in shambles.. and did nothing to help them rebuild.. now guess who took over the country. It does have something to do with the way we side with Israel on nearly every matter in the Middle East... and please dont say anything like \"what are we supposed to do because terrorists keep attacking them.\" Do you understand what they do to get terrorists? Basically they do whatever they want and even attacking refugee camps. Did you know we give them 2 -3 billion a year so they will stay peaceful? Did you also know we sell them experimental weapons?
These are just two examples.. and there are so many more reason to \"Why they hate us.\"
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What I asked is, if you thought we deserved to be attacked. Well actually, I told you not to tell me that. This whole line of questioning was brought about by the remark you made about terrorism being the fault of the USA.
I thought you were going to enlighten me, not back out with a comment on both of our intelligence. Here is a summery of what I know.
The area has been at war nearly since the dawn of civilization. But for the last 1400 years until about 60 years ago it has been under Muslim control. Now the Muslims want it back, all of it, with interest. The USA has been in the middle of it ever since the 70?s. So, like it or not we are at war. We can surrender, and let the chips fall where they may, but that is not going to happen with the current administration.
And by the way, the UN is neck deep and covered in blood on this issue.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/MiddleEast.htm
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The UN is a waste of space. Everyone ignores it and France veto\'s everything that doesn\'t benefit France.
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The state of Israel was recreated in 1948 Derwoody.. after the atrocities the Jews endured. Since then that area has constantly been at war. By the way, if you did not know, the Jews that moved back to Israel were the ones who first started using terrorism not any arab or persian. British troops used to be settled in the area only allowing a certain number of people flowing back into Israel. Barracks were bombed, and many other things happened until Britain wiped their hands clean. Since then the area has been very volitile. And America has not helped the situation one bit other than helping the Israeli army become a very efficient fighting force with exceptional military technology. So Israel can definatly take care of themselves... which in some ways leads to people using terror tactics...
\"The strong do what they will, the weak do what they must\"
I cant remember who this quote is by... but it is very fitting in this situation.
The UN is a waste of space. Everyone ignores it and France veto\'s everything that doesn\'t benefit France.
Actually I am going to partially agree. If we do not give the UN the power to function then there should be no UN. However I want the UN to be greater than the parts, instead of the US doing whatever it wants and so on. And to the second part Xordan... truthfully I hate politics
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derwoodly I think Valbrandr didnt mean that americans deserved the terror, just that some actions taken by the government invite terrorists to attack it, give them a reason to do so.
It is the governments fault not the american people\'s, but terrorists choose targets they can reach, even if the top ten thousands dont mind that much in their bullet proof cars and houses with private army ...
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Originally posted by Cyl
It is the governments fault not the american people\'s
In a \'demoracy\' it\'s always the people\'s fault. The Government is voted in by the people to represent the people\'s views. But then, I don\'t see the US as a democracy. It\'s more like a capitalist republic.
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derwoodly I think Valbrandr didnt mean that americans deserved the terror, just that some actions taken by the government invite terrorists to attack it, give them a reason to do so.
Exactly Cyl. Sorry for not clearing that up. I guess that is one reason why I I dont like the current regime.. along with many of the others.. they make decisions and we pay for them.
In a \'demoracy\' it\'s always the people\'s fault. The Government is voted in by the people to represent the people\'s views. But then, I don\'t see the US as a democracy. It\'s more like a capitalist republic.
There you go. I wish America was the democracy that we promote. But I think Capitalist Republic is a very fair assumption.
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[EDIT: you can read poorly written gibberish or just go here http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg120402.asp Goldberg says it oh so much better than I ever could. ]
Originally posted by Valbrandr
The state of Israel was recreated in 1948 Derwoody.. after the atrocities the Jews endured. Since then that area has constantly been at war. By the way, if you did not know, the Jews that moved back to Israel were the ones who first started using terrorism not any arab or persian. British troops used to be settled in the area only allowing a certain number of people flowing back into Israel. Barracks were bombed, and many other things happened until Britain wiped their hands clean. Since then the area has been very volitile.
Yes, I did here of that, and it is on the web site of the link I provided.
From what I read, Israel was recreated, voted on and argued over. The consensis is tha it is here to stay. Now hard line Muslims do not like this. Well that is tough. You don\'t always get what you want. I don\'t want stem cell research, but I am not going to bomb the lab. I am going to live with it. That is what is expected of everyone requardless if they are week or strong. Bombing embasys, kidnapping civilians, blowing up buildings should never be tolerated. The Jews that did that in the 1940\'s and 1950\'s should have been treated with the same contempt. It is quite possible that Israel may never have been recreated if the UN did not give into Jewish terrorist back then, but that is the past. Destroying Israel now is not an option as far as I know. If after 50 years of peacefull protests by Muslims go by, then the UN might reconsider, I don\'t know. I do know that 50 more years of random terroist bombings will not make Israel disapear.
What really bugs me, is that anyone who defends America is ment with statements like we invited the Terrorist attacks. I am sure, you did not mean it that way, but that is what I read when I read the last few posts.
I would never say that we invited terroist attacks, I would say that we should have expected terrorist attacks. Maybe samantics to you, but to me it sounds like the arguemet that is use to defend rapist-- \"wear\'n that, she was just askin fur it\". If anyone has invited anything it has been Sadam. When asked to step down he said \"Not untill the last drop of ...\". Well you know the rest.
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What really bugs me, is that anyone who defends America is ment [sic] with statements like we invited the Terrorist attacks.
http://www.uwec.edu/grossmzc/interventions.html
I think its safe to say America has aggressivly pursued its interests in alot of countries.
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Thanks Ram for link. To prove I read it, here is a quote...
...
The attacks of September 11 were not only a test for U.S. citizens attitudes\' toward minority ethnic/racial groups in their own country, but a test for our relationship with the rest of the world. We must begin not by lashing out at civilians in Muslim countries, but by taking responsibility for our own history and our own actions, and how they have fed the cycle of violence.
...
I think your Assistant Professor of Geography missed the part where we asked the Taliban to turn over Bin Ladin and they refused. We prety much had the blessing of the western world on that one, maybe with out Dr. Zoltan Grossman, or you, but most of the country was for taking out the Taliban, not talking to them.
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I think your Assistant Professor of Geography missed the part where we asked the Taliban to turn over Bin Ladin and they refused. We prety much had the blessing of the western world on that one, maybe with out Dr. Zoltan Grossman, or you, but most of the country was for taking out the Taliban, not talking to them.
And why were we for it? I would really say we were brainwashed in a way... we were reeling from 9/11 and George Bush was completely misleading us (especially the next step). And if so many other countries were for it... how many troops were sent to afghanistan by all the other countries besides the US.. just about the same ratio that we have in Iraq.. America 90% everyone else 10%. Because these were OUR wars.. it wasnt about liberating anyone.. but luckily it could be a byproduct of one of the actions (Iraq) if America doesnt mind spending 10+ years in Iraq.
And the reason the Taliban wouldnt/couldnt deliver Osama to us.. is because they would not have been able to find him either. A country with as much military technology in the world has not been able to find him in over 4 years now starting from Sept 11, 2001. How would warlords have a chance of finding him ever?
Edit: Ramlambmoo: Very good link there.. a great .edu site. I have seen that list before of interventions... its quite mind boggling,
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A professor in Geography publishes what is public knowledge (look at the sighted sources) and you think it is some great discovery? Heck most of that stuff is on the news every night and in the paper. The only mind boggling thing about it is the conclusions he draws at the end.
When a plain old citizen blows up a government building or shoots doctors that person is labeled a monster is hunted down, given a speedy trial, and killed. And everyone is happy. When that person is a Muslim terrorist you think they should get the Nobel peace prize. Your logic is hypocritical, and I grow tiered of the debate.
If you have something intelligent that you think will honestly convince me that we deserve to have our children blown up. Then post it. Otherwise I am done with this thread.
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A professor in Geography publishes what is public knowledge (look at the sighted sources) and you think it is some great discovery? Heck most of that stuff is on the news every night and in the paper. The only mind boggling thing about it is the conclusions he draws at the end.
You asked for reasons why people say you invited the terrorist attacks. That is why I gave you the link. 138 military interventions in 114 years. One hundred and Thirty Eight seperate instances of the U.S using its miltary to coerce people to its own will, on a large scale. It is not a great discovery, because educated people have known this all along. That the US has aggresivly pursued its agenda by militaristic means is not a revelation to alot of us. You didnt even mention the main part. You can say what you want about the conclusions, but the facts remains. What do you have to say about the facts here? Do you think even a half, or a quarter of those interventions were just and qualified? Do you think the innocent people that died because of them justified the ends they did (or, in alot of cases, ultimatly didnt) acheive?
When a plain old citizen blows up a government building or shoots doctors that person is labeled a monster is hunted down, given a speedy trial, and killed. And everyone is happy. When that person is a Muslim terrorist you think they should get the Nobel peace prize.
Where has anybody said that? You bring subjective, inncorrect assumptions into the discussion to divert the attention from the facts we present.
Your logic is hypocritical, and I grow tiered of the debate.
Your logic is non existant, and you grow tired because we do not stoop to your level of mud slinging. Someone who only has subjective and emotional arguements tires quickly against a logical arguement.
If you have something intelligent that you think will honestly convince me that we deserve to have our children blown up. Then post it. Otherwise I am done with this thread.
If you were really looking for reasons why the rest of the world, in particular muslims, might not be pleasant towards the U.S, you would have seen them by now. Alas, as Caeser once said, Men will readily believe whatever they want to believe. If you do not want to discuss the topic and learn something, but only argue it and try to \"win\" for your side, then no amount of facts or logic will sway your persuasion. Go back to the list I provided to you and read every single military intervention. Imagine the men and women killed in each. Look at what was acheived for each of them. Look at the war in iraq, look at the people killed, look at what was achieved. If you can do all that with an impartial and unbiased mind, and still not comprehend while some people dislike the U.S, well then its pointless discussing any further.
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Believing that terrorists attack us because we attacked them first and committed all kinds of crimes against them just makes you seem gullible. If a terrorist blew himself up killing a bunch of people, and then a statment was released on TV saying that it\'s because of the crimes we commit towards the flying spaghetti monster then would you believe that?
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Xordan: Of course I would !
Btw, when will we see Pseudocode lesson 2 ?
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Originally posted by steuben
i was thinking about this earlier today.
that hurricane was a little bit convient. it is exactly what the bush government needed to distracted the populace from the quagemire that is iraq. the us military spawned that storm. the then directed it to a plausible, but rarely hit, location.
presto, instant distraction. americans are no longer thinking about iraq. they now see bush and the republicans as rescuers that helped to rebuild new orleans and the area.
*removes tin foil hat*
Wou... really ? What I heard here in France is that B Clinton ask to Bush government to explain why it reacts so slowly... I saw a letter of M Moore who was very aggressive throught Bush and his government... I heard british news (by a \"the guardian\" reporter) which said that the reaction of Bush government was a shame and that USA react like a third world country...
Steuben, are you confirming that USA citizens are thinking Bush government reacted correctly? (I am not saying you are wrong or not ; i just wanna have your point of view and other americans one)
By the way, I hope people from new orleans and others states will not suffer anymore from Katrina effects...
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Xordan: Pfffttt lol hahahahhahha
Derwoodly: I understand your perspective a bit, but I\'m an unsure as to from where you draw your assumptions on things however. There is a difference between understanding why the US is viewed as it is by other countries and saying we diserved what we got. I don\'t believe in the killing of any innocents anywhere, which is why I hate war in general. Not because I\'m a pacifist, but because war has changed into an entity that is without real honor. (this isn\'t to say no one in any army is honorable or noble). Guns caused this, and is amplified by larger war machines, Planes, Ships, Tanks, etc. killing with these allows a person to detach themselves from the killing more than in a simple sword fight, or other hand to hand combat (again this isn\'t always true, just that it makes it possible). We enter into wars with countries, and the innocents are the ones who suffer. We now operate with an \"End justifies the means\" attitude, which in the long run may actually be better, but I can\'t use that to justify the suffering of the innocent of the present. One can\'t always live for the future, as they\'ll stumble over their own feet. The US has done many terrible things to people over its short life span, but this is not abnormal for any country. No one thing is perfect, or even close, but it is amplified by the fact that we are the dominate superpower, as well as by the fact that we exercise our military as we do on a much more regular basis.
I think its important to understand the reason we are being attacked instead of automatically assuming that they are worse people than we are. They are probabily only just as bad as internally they are beliving that what they are doing is for the greater good. Its a perspective thing, and its their perspective that we dislike.
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the true problem is that people speaks about USA. USA is a country. A country cant wage a war...
Speaking about USA as an entity means that every usa inhabitants have the same opinion. They havent.
But when a bomb explodes, the victims are inhabitants. Some are b*stards some are kind. So anyway terrorism is a bad choice as long as its fighting against randomized people. Look whats happen in Palestinia : in one side you have suffering people who become terrorists to fight for their freedom and their territory and in other side you have people who lives there since a lot of time but are suffering because of terrorist attack. Angers increase in each sides
BUT :
each time a bomb explose, a lot of peaceful innocents are killed and each time the other side strike back, you could be sure that their military operations will annoy/kill people that have nothing to deals with terrorism.
AND :
who is winning ?
The spiritual masters of the intergrists arent touched by the israelian attacks
The israelian leaders arent touched by the terrorism
Who has something to earn here ?
Its like a videogame : you are a leader and you have the power to send people to the death, to create a war or kill people just because you felt aggressed...
Personally, when I have trouble with a guy, I fight for my ideas or my convictions or i shut up and go away. The leaders cant because they are allowed to use their fabulous military strike or terrorism...
And you think its a shame! you think Palestinians must contradict their leaders.
but if you think that, you must think that israelians must contradicts their leaders too.
Its the same issue for every countries : USA for example. People think that Muslims must fight against terrorism but they cant think about fighting against their own government choice.
Induane, you are like me and almost everyone else : you are for the peace, you dislike war... but you shut up because you think your ideas arent important relatively to the government.
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in an effort to correct a common misconception during the time which seems to be flourshing.. e.g.
derwoody quote/
\"..we asked the Taliban to turn over Bin Ladin and they refused..\"
/endquote
actually.. in sept of 2002..
\"The Taliban offers to turn over bin Laden if presented with evidence of his guilt. They also suggest that they will allow him to be tried by Muslim clerics.\"
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban-time.html
so really, the usOFa declined to tun over any evidence, and attacked in an act of agression instead.
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I remember the BBC reporting that we asked for them to hand him over and they refused, and the BBC are usually pretty accurate in what they report.
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Originally posted by pwxyzg
actually.. in sept of 2002..
\"The Taliban offers to turn over bin Laden if presented with evidence of his guilt. They also suggest that they will allow him to be tried by Muslim clerics.\"
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban-time.html
so really, the usOFa declined to tun over any evidence, and attacked in an act of agression instead.
Please do not rewrite history. This was only 4 years ago, we all know what happened. You should check your date. It was 2001.
Most of my posts were dirrected at Val so he could have some understanding as to why 51% of the USA voted for Bush in the last election. What I was trying to show was that there is so much misinformation out there it is hard to see what the truth is. Maybe I was fooled, but when compare what both sides are saying and then apply my own memory as to what happened 4, 5, 10, 20 years ago, I find myself siding more with the Pro Bush side than the Anti-bush side.
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Most of my posts were dirrected at Val so he could have some understanding as to why 51% of the USA voted for Bush in the last election.
I have no idea. People are idiots.
Maybe I was fooled, but when compare what both sides are saying and then apply my own memory as to what happened 4, 5, 10, 20 years ago, I find myself siding more with the Pro Bush side than the Anti-bush side.
Well, he must have brainwashed you as well.. but you likely dont remember that :P.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
I have no idea. People are idiots.
The most of the time I had to realize that people think each others are idiots... but i think the real idiot is the one who ignore his own ignorance (and then the one who everytime think he is more intelligent than the others).
so the big question now is \"are you thinking you are more intelligent than the others :D :D :D
Seriously, dont think people are idiots... you could be surprised. A lot of very intelligent people are totally conditionned and manipulated. A lot of other people may seems to be dumb and at the same time they are able to react more logically than the others (only because they arent endoctrinated or manipulated).
Moreover the one who looks dumb has a big advantage : he could surprise you. Its like a card game : if you have good cards, dont show them to everyone before beeing sure the others havent better cards.
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so the big question now is \"are you thinking you are more intelligent than the others
yes I would say the 49 million that voted for Kerry were definately not as big of idiots.. while the others who allowed themselves to be manipulated were 100% idiots (that includes anyone who voted for Nader btw). But no need to get into why certain groups voted for certain people.
I have a friend who voted for Bush... she is a Democrat and very liberal. But her brother just joined the army. And when Kerry made the statement \"wrong place, wrong war, wrong time\" she said there was no way that she could vote for him. Yeah she is educated but still an idiot.
I know other idiots that would not vote for Kerry because of certain people coming out trying to tarnish his military career. Let me just remind you that during Vietnam Bush never left the state of Texas though he was in the Airforce. He valiantly defended Texas from the Vietcong.. that is almost as brave as actually being there fighting in a war. Hmm plenty of other idiots and so little time.. Ill get some sleep for now and finish this later.
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Is a good president forced to kill someone to be considerated like a good president in USA?
If you wanna know who has his place at the White house you just have to think about who could lead at best. For example, Marilyn Manson voted for Bush... and he said its only for an economical reason: as long as the president let him earn the most money he can earn, he is enjoying. He dont care about USA image in the world or other way of life. No ideologies. No good act. No ... . only because he has more to win by voting for bush. And i think a lot of people thought like that.
Moreover, who said you voting is so important? Do you really think its important? What would change in your life if Kerry is president? Surely nothing. And the guy who voted for the first he was able to remember because he believes that voting isnt really important... maybe this guy is more intelligent than what you think. I think voting is important but in fact, today, I believe one president or another one would not change my life: there will still have nuclear testing in Mururoa the day the militaries will think its important to test our nuke, there will still have lost money which will arrived (thanks to god will) in the pocket of our ministers, Ill keep on beeing against the educational system and the environmental policy and the economical system will continue to increase slavery in foreigner countries. So maybe the guy who vote something randomly is more intelligent than me because he doesnt waste his time for nothing...
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Originally posted by pwxyzg
actually.. in sept of 2002..
\"The Taliban offers to turn over bin Laden if presented with evidence of his guilt. They also suggest that they will allow him to be tried by Muslim clerics.\"
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban-time.html
so really, the usOFa declined to tun over any evidence, and attacked in an act of agression instead.
Please do not rewrite history.
sorry.. .. um, i meant 2001 (see the llink, its a typo) .. my appologies. i am actually not the one rewriting history here.
and
Originally posted by Xordan
I remember..
for everyone\'s enjoyment..another link, another time (1 month later).. alludes to the previous offer but this also talks about the one after aerial attacks started ..when they said basically, ok, ok..just take him, forget evidence.. geeesh:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,575593,00.html
have a look.
yes, i think there is much disinformation; it seems much of the media have misinformed or rewritten history by under/over reporting to follow a popular belief while the drum of war beat on. (/me points in flight attendent style to WMD\'s or lack thereof :D ). Albeit they have a difficult problem in that it is a bit like the duality of light.. the more/less they report, the more they change the reality (a bit of what i am doing here in fact by putting out this information :P )
it seems to me that most people honestly don\'t care much about the facts, they are only posturing a political ideology, in the effort to root for a team - the world is much simpler and easier that way; imho this siding is one of the worst things for journalism and democracy.
Anyhow, as to what derwoodly said w/r/t memory and the side you feel you are on: seems you are implying a belief and an ideology and well, i would wager that the side you side with are probably telling you what you want to hear and have always heard. Open your mind for possibilities, and make up your own mind based on your world view; not for the rest of your life, but for now, with the facts at hand. *shrugs* (stir well, repeat to infinity). :D
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The article in the Gardian was much much better than your first link. It actually had real facts in it. Reading the first one left me with the impresion that there was zero negotiation and the USA attacked for almost no reason.
Your second article shows the process of negotiation that took place. It also refutes your own claim that one month earlier The Taliban agreeded to turn him over.
.......................................................
But until now the Taliban regime has consistently said it has not seen any convincing evidence to implicate the Saudi dissident in any crime.
\"Now they have agreed to hand him over to a third country without the evidence being presented in advance,\" the source close to the military said.
............................................................
Acording to the article that you posted the Taliban only offered to turn Bin Ladin over to another country not dirrectly to the USA after Northern alliance troops were in the country.
You said you wanted to clear up some misconceptions, so you posted....
Originally posted by pwxyzg
so really, the usOFa declined to tun over any evidence, and attacked in an act of agression instead.
I don\'t think this clears anything up. It makes me wonder about your own bias. Reread the article in the link that you posted and tell me where I am wrong. If some american terrorist blew up London, how fast do you think we would cooperate. It would be done within 24 hours, that is unless Bush is on vacation again. The USA has made plenty of mistakes without people twisting the truth.
@ Val Kerry was the worst possible candidate, I am sure with your background you can see where he could have picked up the 2% of the Ohio vote he needed.
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Do yo know anything about voting irregularities in Ohio? Maybe a machine that counted 25,000 extra votes then people who were in that specific county... Hmm historically Democratic voting counties voting republican... calls going out to poorer/uneducated people telling them that Democrates voted on a different day then Republicans.. Please do not try and act like Bush wins fair and square.. look back at the first election that he lost... Gore got so close in Florida when they started to recount some of the votes.. but quickly the Supreme Court shut him down.. Think how diffferent things coould have been without Bush...
And Kerry was the worst possible candidate because he is linked to over 2000 American deaths, because of his war over 100,000 Iraqi civilians are currently dead and the few allies we had are now being attacked. If you are trying to tell me he could not do as good of a job as Bush.. then you really need to look at your own biases.. you keep talking about them.. hmm maybe you dont notice that you are brainwashed. 51% didnt know it until it was too late as well.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Please do not try and act like Bush wins fair and square.. look back at the first election that he lost...
If Kerry had won then we\'d be like: \"Please do not try and act like Kerry wins fair and square.. \"
It\'s quite common for there to be voting irregularities in polls. :)
Originally posted by fken
Moreover, who said you voting is so important? Do you really think its important? What would change in your life if Kerry is president? Surely nothing.
It makes a huge difference....
Hitler is a good example. If the Nazi party hadn\'t have been voted in with him as leader, I doubt that WW2 would have occurred, or, occured at that time, under the same circumstances.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
And Kerry was the worst possible candidate because he is linked to over 2000 American deaths, because of his war over 100,000 Iraqi civilians are currently dead and the few allies we had are now being attacked.
Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. So you agree Kerry was the worst. :P
I continue to post here, so that you might get a feeling as to why 51% voted the way they did. Bush must have done something right, he picked up votes on the second try.
You blame bush for every death in Iraq, why don\'t you blame him for every death in America? Surely, the president is responsible for the high crime rate. When a gang-banger kills I am sure it is out of frustration at the 2004 elections. You can not just count bodies that does not make sense to me. I can not make that logical leap.
[edit: from Iraq body count . org -- 28,000 deaths NOT 100,000 :
Who did the killing?
* US-led forces killed 37% of civilian victims.
* Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims.
* Post-invasion criminal violence accounted for 36% of all deaths.
* Killings by anti-occupation forces, crime and unknown agents have shown a steady rise over the entire period.
]
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Originally posted by Xordan
It makes a huge difference....
Hitler is a good example. If the Nazi party hadn\'t have been voted in with him as leader, I doubt that WW2 would have occurred, or, occured at that time, under the same circumstances.
There was a time when i everytime took example with WW2 and Hitler... Hitler the big evil. Hitler THE responsble of the WW2.
OMG!
Guy! If you react toward me like frenches (for example) reacts toward Germans before the WW2... I really dunno how i would react toward you.
I am not saying Nazis and Hitler were angels but i am saying they really werent the only responsible of the WW2.
Do you know that thanks to the Vichy governments collaboration, the Frenches had almost as food ratio as the Germans themselves ? Today and even just after the war people spit on Vichy Government but believe in me, Petain had ever shown his extremist ideas before the WW2. You just needed to to inform yourself a little... People would say they werent aware of it but if they really wanted they would be able to know that truth. In fact, Frenches didnt want to fight against Germany because they were scared (its perfectly understandable when you know whats happened during the WW1). When the time of the WW2 was about to be ended, everyone in France became \"resistants\", the protectors of the French freedom against german invasion... So they fight like they could the poor people, they mowed the head of the m*therf*cker female that loved a german soldier and even the one that have been raped by germans... No! really. I like to speak about this part of the history. Because it\'s in my mind the best example of the humanity way of life : We did but we arent responsible ! The shame is on someone else!
Dont forget that the WW2 is the consequence of the WW1. Dont forget that it would never happened if Frenches, Britishs or any allies really cared about Germany destiny.
Dont forget neither that France had its \"affaire Dreyfus\". People in France had no problems to say this Dreyfus must be sent in jail just because he was jewish. Dont forget that in the USA there were some issues like this one. Dont forget that GB had the same problems with India or even ireland... People thought that there was superior races and surely still think like that today...
For Kerry I dunno really what he would have done. The war was already waged and won... He would have kept on doing what Bush has already done but he would have said \"I am rebuilding what Bsh destructed!\". But really I cant see whats a Kerry or whats a Bush... For me these guys are kind of puppets and the puppetmasters are behind them saying what they have to do like in every part of the world.
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my point is and has been that the taliban did not \"decline\"... just above what you quoted was
..................
The Taliban have offered to hand over Bin Laden before but only if sufficient evidence was presented
.................
You could try to say the counter offer for evidence (and for a \'neutral\' site) was a \'decline\', but if you are familiar with common due processes, you would find that this is normal and in fact expected.
Again, you come to your own conculsions as to the reasons we did not accept this offer; in otherwords, why we declined.
As to the hypothetical what would happen if there was an american terrorist action in london? *sigh* I would guess we would ask for evidence and if we had trouble with the evidence we would ask for a neutral site like canada. I think you are not understanding the american/international extradition process and what it takes, particularly if there are questions as to the evidence (see here to learn more about extradition http://Http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Extradition).
Also, you are also talking apples and oranges.. i feel a better hypothetical comparison is this: what if the Venezuelan president IS killed and Venezuela says we want Pat Robertson for his international threat and support of an assaination? I don\'t see us giving him up. But, maybe you do.. now we are talking beliefs and it is like a relgious discussion, which I for one, am not interested in.
my bias? i have many biases that are mostly focused on my superhero ideals of truth, justice and the american way.. applied worldwide and always. :D
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Originally posted by fken
I am not saying Nazis and Hitler were angels but i am saying they really werent the only responsible of the WW2.
Hitler was the guy who built up the German army in secret. Nobody else caused that. The other parties involved in the elections wouldn\'t have done that. Therefore, if Hitler had never got to power, then Germany would ever have had a army to fight with, and so WW2 would not have happened in that way. Sure, he wasn\'t solely responsible for kicking the war off, but I would say that if Germany hadn\'t have had an army, it wouldn\'t have happened. So he was the root cause.
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So you are saying that the war would happened 10 years after ? or maybe are you thinking that the situation in Palestinia is better ? no war but a perpetual conflict? I was saying that if there werent a Hitler or a Himmler or a Goeble, the hate would still have been here. Nobody know how the situation would have happened if there werent Hitler. Look for example at the game redalert (I know its a game its not serious but...), the story was the following : Allies fund a way to kill Hitler in 1933 by teleporting themselves in the past. Once they come back they are scared to understand that the situation is worse because the soviets were the one who created the WW2 ... but after, once they were totally prepared.
If the Soviets wanted to wage a war dont forget the germans\' hate toward the french and the allies. Allies would still reject Italia like the way they have done that during the WW2. It would not change anything with Japan... So whats the result ? Allies - URSS VS URSS + Germany + Austria + Italia + Japan... then if you imagine that URSS would have created bombs secretly ... You surely could be able to understand that the WW2 would happened even without Hitler. Moreover, were would the front line be? During the WW2, there were URSS Japan USA So the front line was in the Japan/pacific. Same things with germany and italia : England(/France dont forget the french forces) Germany URSS and the last one : French colony Italia France... now if you realize that if there werent the URSS the direct battle field would have been all around GB and all around USA ... For the first time since the secession war (I am not sure of the way i spell it), USA would be THE battlefield attacked by foreigner countries. Who would win ?
Why this example is so obvious ? simply because of four facts :
1) during the cold war, URSS was about to wage a war against USA. I heard that Kremlin gave his cold war files and that a lot of people were shocked by realizing that the real war was closer than what they imagined.
2)Hitler manipulated Staline by forcing him to kill his greatest generals. Staline was so scared about treason and he simply killed his most important allies :)) (What a poor guy!)
->URSS army organization has been shattered
3)URSS lost a lot of people during the WW2 and no one wanted to fight anymore after the WW2 because of all the horror that they saw during the WW2 (at least what they saw in the allies side was already enough to make you runaway)
4)There was a real opposition between the 2 ways of life. Everyone thought they were superior, everyone thought they were in the good side, there was endoctrinment, ...
But without considering science fiction : the consequences of the WW1 were a very bad feeling, a big desire of revenge and still a stupid feeling of superiority. No one abandon their nationalism which was the real fact which drove us to the 2 WW... Everything was designed to create a big delayed-bomb. It simply exploded because it had to explode.
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I think you\'re missing my point. I\'m just trying to say that the leader of a country _does_ make a big difference on how things turn out. The war might have happened 10 years later if Hitler hadn\'t got power, but that just reinforces my point even more. Leaders do make a big impact on history. Another leader you might look at is Julius Caesar, who did some big things in his time.
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Sorry I dont believe in the man making the times.. I think the times make the man. If you take away any specific person there is always another tight behind them that would in one way or another pick up that slack. maybe the timetable would be changed a bit.. but the same events to an extent would have happened either way.. But im talking about on a very broad scale.. not specific issues like going into Iraq.. would it have been different if Gore would have been president.. sure the specifics would have changed.. and I guess in special circumstances certain men to make the times but that is very rare I would say.
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hmmm... maybe maybe not... Clinton ask US forces to drop bombs on Iraq too... He didnt wage any war but he did \"his job\". I dont think the war would have been waged if Gore was elected. And really who cares today ? I dont need to know what would happen if the things were different : nothing is different. Things have been done an d today we all must concentrate to behave correctly now.