PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: KillNnikk on August 31, 2005, 02:31:16 pm
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Whilst trying to give a new sword to a new player.. asking the new player to return the sword if he could use it.
I tried 3 or 4 NICE new players who unfortunately could not use the weapon but returned it promptly and were very polite, they were in the spirit of the good gesture being offered.
I offered the new player ELKANTAR this sword (does about 44 damage which is a good newbie tool) and although the player could not use it.. he tried to run away with it.
Enter my team mate....
Who take a pervers pleasure in doing things just a bit more ascerbicly than I do with players. He made a very very quick dash, challenged the player.. and would have his head on a pike if the game allowed it. One hit kill.
The player ELKANTAR rather speedily logged off at this point.. he might be a tad upset. please feel free to make him more upset by continuing him on his \"being killed mercilessly\" streak.
Cheers
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please feel free to make him more upset by continuing him on his \"being killed mercilessly\" streak.
Don\'t.
EDIT: I suppose you\'re smart enough to figure out why not.
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These situations happen, because no methods has been coded which would stop people from doing so. I thank this or other way to devs for this what i have till now.
Currently, unlike in real life, property of someone is this what he have in his inventory. If somethink is on the ground, it can be taken by anyone. Thats sad, but even if we disagree with that, there is nothing what we can do about it, as we can\'t do any harm to the thief. And even if we could, this what is in one\'s inventory can\'t be taken from it if owner dont give it.
Hope this will ever change.
Isn\'t it funny that the rules which are supposed to give us fun, are in fact double bladed sword which hit back those, which it is supposed to protect?
Good topic name.
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I think that once PS advanced enough to have some more shady and criminal acts it might become possible to steal your objects back.
In this scenario a thief would definitely have saved the day ... beating the guy up really doesn\'t help much. *wonders why he accepted the challenge anyway*
Personally I think implementing a simple type of fame system would work best in these cases. All players have a fame rating, starting out at 0 of course and others can change this fame by either adding or detracting. In this case you would obviously have lowered the unfair player\'s fame ... which would have its impact on his communication. I would even go as far as NPC\'s not liking characters with really bad fame. Most decent merchants and the like wouldn\'t talk to these people, let alone sell them items or give them quests. So \'bad\' people could only do business with other shady individuals and are therefor limited in their progress and communication.
Of course there will have to be limits to the fame changing unless we want the system to be abused.
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Originally posted by Zan
Of course there will have to be limits to the fame changing unless we want the system to be abused.
Even with limits one malicious person could very easily do serious harm the reputations of a large number of people before he could be caught.
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dont bother a gm with htis and dont harass the player, you too kthe risk of handing the person a weapon so you take responsibility.
none the less you shouldnt harass the player in such a way, it will just cause more aggravation
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Originally posted by KillNnikk
Whilst trying to give a new sword to a new player.. asking the new player to return the sword if he could use it.
I tried 3 or 4 NICE new players who unfortunately could not use the weapon but returned it promptly and were very polite, they were in the spirit of the good gesture being offered.
I offered the new player ELKANTAR this sword (does about 44 damage which is a good newbie tool) and although the player could not use it.. he tried to run away with it.
Enter my team mate....
Who take a pervers pleasure in doing things just a bit more ascerbicly than I do with players. He made a very very quick dash, challenged the player.. and would have his head on a pike if the game allowed it. One hit kill.
The player ELKANTAR rather speedily logged off at this point.. he might be a tad upset. please feel free to make him more upset by continuing him on his \"being killed mercilessly\" streak.
Cheers
You gave him the sword. It\'s his now.
You can\'t stop people from being mean, unless it\'s a form of harrassment or cheating. Since he isn\'t cheating nor is he harrassing you, and in fact you seem to be harrassing him, you have no grounds for complaint.
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just adding my thoughts because im bored, this elkantar prolly should not have ran off with the sword if he a greed to giving it back, if there was no agreement then he is totaly in the right.
but still, you gave him the sword... if you dont want people to keep it dont give them it. and the whole askimg people to kill him thing is just stupid.
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Zanzibar, you are a child of MMORPGs, you don\'t know what is reality. Unless you were sarcastic.
Lets say a marriage are on vacations, on top of some peak and they want to make a photo of them. So they give their camara to a stranger and ask him/her to make them a photo.
The stranger walk away for 10m and looks like he is going to make the photo. But suddently succesfully he/she runs away.
Now with zanzibar\'s logic, the camara was the stranger property. Was it really?
Good example? Did some people started to think that PS is a world, not a game where we play?
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Originally posted by Hatchnet
Originally posted by Zan
Of course there will have to be limits to the fame changing unless we want the system to be abused.
Even with limits one malicious person could very easily do serious harm the reputations of a large number of people before he could be caught.
Not really if you were only allowed to change someone\'s fame once a day, real life day that is, and never the same person twice in a week or even month. Course yeah if two people piss you off in a day you can only punish one ... but seriously it doesn\'t happen so often. And in case one person pisses off lots of people say by defaming someone random every day. Those many people together will hurt his fame back far far worse. If the system is balanced out and everyone has the same limits it does represent reality. Annoying and dishonorable people will lose fame over time while nice and honorable people will gain it.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
Zanzibar, you are a child of MMORPGs, you don\'t know what is reality. Unless you were sarcastic.
Lets say a marriage are on vacations, on top of some peak and they want to make a photo of them. So they give their camara to a stranger and ask him/her to make them a photo.
The stranger walk away for 10m and looks like he is going to make the photo. But suddently succesfully he/she runs away.
Now with zanzibar\'s logic, the camara was the stranger property. Was it really?
Good example? Did some people started to think that PS is a world, not a game where we play?
That\'s an unintelligent comparison.
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you both have points.. but in RL you can go kick the camera guys face in(/me remembers a holiday incident with his uncle..), in PS ther eis not way to stop it
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Originally posted by zanzibar
That\'s an unintelligent comparison.
Are you going to explain your point of viev?
And i want to do exactly this what Drey has described. If someone steal my property i want have the possiblity to smash his face or cut in two if needed and take my property back. The thief can run.... there are many possiblities and i would like to have them in PS.
I hate saying that we cant kill another player because it is to protect us and give us fun from playing.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
Originally posted by zanzibar
That\'s an unintelligent comparison.
Are you going to explain your point of viev?
And i want to do exactly this what Drey has described. If someone steal my property i want have the possiblity to smash his face or cut in two if needed and take my property back. The thief can run.... there are many possiblities and i would like to have them in PS.
I hate saying that we cant kill another player because it is to protect us and give us fun from playing.
I already did explain my point of view. If I were to explain it again, I\'d just be repeating myself. I don\'t think he stole property ; didn\'t he give the sword to him? If there was a condition saying \"I\'m not really giving you the sword, I am simply transfering it to you for a discrete amount of time so that you can test it out to see if you have 80 strength, and should your strength rating be less than that then I expect you to return the sword to me immediately as it never stopped being my property as much as anything can be property in a RPG world\" - if there was a condition like that attached to the trade, THEN it was stealing, but at the same time you have to in part blame the victim.
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I do actually agree with the post done by Taldor (commenting on my intelligence is rather pretentious but I understand where you are coming from).
What I said was in the heat of the moment as I had just been very dissapointed by another player when my intentions where pure. In heinsight I do regret what I said about this player (Elkantar).
Also at the time I did not know my team mate was behind me.. so his retribution was something unexpected and although at the time I applauded the action, now I do not. I found it funny that he was immediately killed and actually accepted the challenge to a duel with a big character who was acting as a friend.. The fact that I also asked others to do the same was wrong and inappropriate.
I do not wish anyone on this game discomfort in any way and for this hypocritical outburst I do apologise and ask that no one please attack this player.
On the idea of fame. Zan... this is a truly excellent idea and it would increase the effects of the a players actions through-out his/her gaming/role-play experience. Well done and good thinking
To Drey... sorry to see you bored.. but I agreee with what you said about asking people to kill Elkantar. As I said.. heat of the moment act.
With this said.. I did state quite clearly to the player that IF he could not use the item then he is to return it to me so I could give to another player who could use it, this was said before handing him the item and he agreed.
To Nikodemes... Great analogy, sums it up expertly.
Thank you everyone for your input and I apologise for writing my original statement in anger.
p.s Having a wonderful time on this game.
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Originally posted by Zan
Originally posted by Hatchnet
Even with limits one malicious person could very easily do serious harm the reputations of a large number of people before he could be caught.
Not really if you were only allowed to change someone\'s fame once a day, real life day that is, and never the same person twice in a week or even month.
I would make such a system so that each person could only change another person between +1, 0 or -1. Annoy one person, get a -1. Annoy someone else, and you\'re at -2. Now if you\'re nice to a third person, you might get back at -1, because he gave you a +1. If you annoy the first guy again, he can\'t do anything, because he already set you to -1, and can\'t put you lower. But if you apologize he might change it back to 0, which increases the total.
This way, one person cannot affect anothers reputation a lot. But if you annoy everyone, you\'ll probably be at -300 in no time.
The disadvantage is that this requires a lot of DB space to maintain, up to the number of players squared.
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That sounds very good actually .. didn\'t think of that. Hmm maybe we should move this idea to the wish list though.
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im like it too, though leeloo said its hard to make...
would it be annonymous what people said about you though?
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I\'m not sure if this sytem is going to work in the way as you think. I think it could destroy reputation of people who don\'t deserve on this. The points won\'t be give only when someone will commit crime, but only when somebody won\'t like somebody else action. So it will be happening quite often that player won\'t be able to trade with NPC\'s because he have that bad opionion, where only 1/10 of this opinion are really crimes and rest 9/10 is points for not being nice to others.
The points will be factor of how someone is liked or disliked by other players. Someone can be honest, but have huge amount of negatives.
It would be another invisible barrier which we have in MMORPGs and which aren\'t in real life. In real people don\'t know that much about each other, and good they don\'t!
I wan\'t to have some privacy in PS too.
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Well it would be as annonymous as you \'d like I guess. The act itself would be technically annonymous ... no names show up on any message or something, but of course given the situation it will often be pretty obvious who just did that. If you piss someone off and suddenly get a drop in your fame you \'ll know where it came from.
We \'ve only talked about the negative things here though, this system can reward just as well. People with a positive fame rating could get certain priviledges .. perhaps a discount at some stores or something.
Nikodemus, I understand your concerns. The system does allow for abuse but with enough restrictions and regulations it would be minimal. I also know that the present planeshift community is mostly made up out of good people so I am not really worried about something like this backfiring.
The example I gave with NPC\'s not willing to trade or talk might have been a bit harsh though ... it would probably be better that they just don\'t respond very friendly, but still respond and perhaps charge you a bit more. This would only be with a very low reputation though. Say something like -50 or the effects would be so minimal they only become significant at very high or low ratings. Also keep in mind that even for those with low fame there are still going to be more shady traders who don\'t care. A sort of black market where they only care about the color of your trias.
I can also see your want for privacy so I figured what if we only made the fame ratings that significantly differ from 0 visible? Say that it \'d only start to show from +/-25. This would of course be exceptional so your average player would never show a fame rating. I think a system like that is actually pretty realistic. Most people don\'t have a large enough reputation so others can\'t see it ... but there are those who have become famous or infamous and about everyone has heard some rumours about them. This even adds to roleplaying as you can now become a famous hero or a well known criminal. I can see that for some people *coughAm-hehifhewasstillherecough* it would be their intention to get a negative rating to go along with their character.
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Originally posted by Zan
I can also see your want for privacy so I figured what if we only made the fame ratings that significantly differ from 0 visible? Say that it \'d only start to show from +/-25. This would of course be exceptional so your average player would never show a fame rating. I think a system like that is actually pretty realistic. Most people don\'t have a large enough reputation so others can\'t see it ... but there are those who have become famous or infamous and about everyone has heard some rumours about them. This even adds to roleplaying as you can now become a famous hero or a well known criminal. I can see that for some people *coughAm-hehifhewasstillherecough* it would be their intention to get a negative rating to go along with their character.
But i think informations if someone is famous or not, should travel in tradiional way, it is from people to people. If we will have points, then one will know reputation of someone who he never seen or heard about. You will talk very different with him and be warned about possible consequences of deal with him and such. If in real some stranger will come to you, you know nothing about him.
In my eyes it is not a solution. It will be really good to honest characters, this will protect them, and they will have nothing to care about. But it will hit not so honest characters which purpose is often to trick those honest.
Really, when I first see someone and you can\'t hear everythink about every person, I know nothing about him and about his reputation.
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Originally posted by Leeloo
Originally posted by Zan
Originally posted by Hatchnet
Even with limits one malicious person could very easily do serious harm the reputations of a large number of people before he could be caught.
Not really if you were only allowed to change someone\'s fame once a day, real life day that is, and never the same person twice in a week or even month.
I would make such a system so that each person could only change another person between +1, 0 or -1. Annoy one person, get a -1. Annoy someone else, and you\'re at -2. Now if you\'re nice to a third person, you might get back at -1, because he gave you a +1. If you annoy the first guy again, he can\'t do anything, because he already set you to -1, and can\'t put you lower. But if you apologize he might change it back to 0, which increases the total.
This way, one person cannot affect anothers reputation a lot. But if you annoy everyone, you\'ll probably be at -300 in no time.
The disadvantage is that this requires a lot of DB space to maintain, up to the number of players squared.
- It isn\'t realistic.
- It interferes with RP.
- People have more insentive to give negative ratings than to give positive ratings.
- New people, who often get the most help, won\'t know how to give positive ratins.
All in all, it\'s a pretty dismal system. It doesn\'t reflect at all how people actually relate to eachother and think about one another. I think just word of mouth and a naturalistic approach to reputation is good enough.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
Zanzibar, you are a child of MMORPGs, you don\'t know what is reality. Unless you were sarcastic.
Lets say a marriage are on vacations, on top of some peak and they want to make a photo of them. So they give their camara to a stranger and ask him/her to make them a photo.
The stranger walk away for 10m and looks like he is going to make the photo. But suddently succesfully he/she runs away.
Now with zanzibar\'s logic, the camara was the stranger property. Was it really?
Good example? Did some people started to think that PS is a world, not a game where we play?
Originally posted by KillNnikk
Great analogy, sums it up expertly.
It does not sum it up expertly. If he gave the sword to him, then he had to realize the risks involved. It was a foolish thing for him to give him the sword and expect it back, given that it was a stranger.
Was it right? No. Misfortunate? Yes. Ignorant? Yes.
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i agree with shalmaneser. though i would like to draw his attention to the edit button.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
It does not sum it up expertly. If he gave the sword to him, then he had to realize the risks involved. It was a foolish thing for him to give him the sword and expect it back, given that it was a stranger.
Was it right? No. Misfortunate? Yes. Ignorant? Yes.
I just wanted to point out that in MMORPG like PS in its current state you would be right. But in real world no. Don\'t we want in PS to be ruled by the same rules? Otherwise what will we have? I can\'t see how it may be good, as i hate prohibition.
Giving a stranger a thing in real you risk that you lost it, but you can always run after him and try to take it back. In PS, giving an item to a stranger means you almost for sure lost it and you can do nothing after that. It is wrong and should be changed because:
Originally posted by zanzibar
- It isn\'t realistic.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
Originally posted by zanzibar
It does not sum it up expertly. If he gave the sword to him, then he had to realize the risks involved. It was a foolish thing for him to give him the sword and expect it back, given that it was a stranger.
Was it right? No. Misfortunate? Yes. Ignorant? Yes.
I just wanted to point out that in MMORPG like PS in its current state you would be right. But in real world no. Don\'t we want in PS to be ruled by the same rules? Otherwise what will we have? I can\'t see how it may be good, as i hate prohibition.
Giving a stranger a thing in real you risk that you lost it, but you can always run after him and try to take it back. In PS, giving an item to a stranger means you almost for sure lost it and you can do nothing after that. It is wrong and should be changed because:
Originally posted by zanzibar
- It isn\'t realistic.
It isn\'t realistic to have to ask for confirmation before every duel either. And it isn\'t realistic to murder someone infront of a large crowd and not have law enforcement come after you. And it isn\'t realistic to walk the streets at night without worrying about muggers.
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All true :)
It would be some challange.
inspired by Zanzibar point \"3. I am a nice guy who helps others.\" from his sig:
A nice guy who helps others die faster challanging them? yay! What are you going to prove?
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well if indeed this fame system comes into play... you should have to be able to present a plausible reason... so like it detects insults directed to YOU the player and then automatically lowers it... or if they compliment you then it raises it... so like if you say
\"Billy you are horrible at this game\" it would get horrible and Billy and then see it as an isult and lower that persons rating however,
\"Billy you are an extremely good fighter\"
it sees billy and extremely good and then raises it...
but this could malfunction and see a compliment as an insult if it is worded wrong... so pretty much it would FORCE people to think before they speak... which is my favorite thing to say...
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I think that last would be overcomplicating the system a bit.
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In principle, I think the Fame System is intriguing, but I don\'t see how it would fit in without adversley affecting the RP aspect of the game. Of sourse, PS is not \"real life\", but it seems to me that the system would either be intrusive (having to interrupt what you are doing to \"rank\" other players), or impossibly difficult to program (the game needing to interpret actions on your behalf).
The current system, in which a character\'s reputation is spread by word of mouth, *is* realistic, and I think works just fine. Those who hang around the game, and the forums, long enough get a pretty good sense of the reputations of some of the more well known characters (Drey, Shalmaneser/Zanzibar, and Karyuu spring immediately to mind).
What might be helpful is a couterpart to the \"buddy\" list for those people you don\'t like. You could add people to this list to remind you when you meet them in-game that you have a rather poor opinion of them. I\'m not the best with names; I remember faces much more easily. In PS, this can be a problem since everybody looks alike. An \"adversaries\" list would help to keep things straight, at least until we get a little more variety in the character models.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
All true :)
It would be some challange.
inspired by Zanzibar point \"3. I am a nice guy who helps others.\" from his sig:
A nice guy who helps others die faster challanging them? yay! What are you going to prove?
Stop being so closed minded.
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Originally posted by Rage McCloud
well if indeed this fame system comes into play... you should have to be able to present a plausible reason... so like it detects insults directed to YOU the player and then automatically lowers it... or if they compliment you then it raises it... so like if you say
\"Billy you are horrible at this game\" it would get horrible and Billy and then see it as an isult and lower that persons rating however,
\"Billy you are an extremely good fighter\"
it sees billy and extremely good and then raises it...
but this could malfunction and see a compliment as an insult if it is worded wrong... so pretty much it would FORCE people to think before they speak... which is my favorite thing to say...
Ah, I can see it now..... Planeshift: Myspace Blue! Where mobbing is systemic!
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Originally posted by Zan
I think that once PS advanced enough to have some more shady and criminal acts it might become possible to steal your objects back.
In this scenario a thief would definitely have saved the day ... beating the guy up really doesn\'t help much. *wonders why he accepted the challenge anyway*
Personally I think implementing a simple type of fame system would work best in these cases. All players have a fame rating, starting out at 0 of course and others can change this fame by either adding or detracting. In this case you would obviously have lowered the unfair player\'s fame ... which would have its impact on his communication. I would even go as far as NPC\'s not liking characters with really bad fame. Most decent merchants and the like wouldn\'t talk to these people, let alone sell them items or give them quests. So \'bad\' people could only do business with other shady individuals and are therefor limited in their progress and communication.
Of course there will have to be limits to the fame changing unless we want the system to be abused.
Perhaps it could start out with just 50 or so trusted people able to adjust fame...Once someone gets 10 points they can change one person\'s fame by 1 per day and so on...? **Shrugs** It\'d be difficult to implement, but it done effectively, could have MAJOR benefits.
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Originally posted by Typhorean
Perhaps it could start out with just 50 or so trusted people able to adjust fame...Once someone gets 10 points they can change one person\'s fame by 1 per day and so on...? **Shrugs** It\'d be difficult to implement, but it done effectively, could have MAJOR benefits.
And fatal drawbacks.
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Well, I did stipulate that *if* it could be done effectively, it could have major benefits, and I agree...too many drawbacks, it would just be another non-RPish double-edged sword. The planeshift community has, in the past, managed to weed out the idiots and the bad apples, and will continue to do so in the future. A few incidents like this and word will get around about him, usually. Maybe a shunning list is in order, but nothing more than that. Kind of like a voting thing. You just type /shun or /unshun . Even that would be a bit much, really. I think that for now, until someone has a brilliant idea, though, it\'s best not to waste time programming such a system that could so easily be abused.
EDIT: As an example...has anyone played AlienAA? Does the phrase \'Selling Karma +/- 5000 credits!\' sound at all familiar?
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Originally posted by Typhorean
Well, I did stipulate that *if* it could be done effectively, it could have major benefits, and I agree...too many drawbacks, it would just be another non-RPish double-edged sword. The planeshift community has, in the past, managed to weed out the idiots and the bad apples, and will continue to do so in the future. A few incidents like this and word will get around about him, usually. Maybe a shunning list is in order, but nothing more than that. Kind of like a voting thing. You just type /shun or /unshun . Even that would be a bit much, really. I think that for now, until someone has a brilliant idea, though, it\'s best not to waste time programming such a system that could so easily be abused.
EDIT: As an example...has anyone played AlienAA? Does the phrase \'Selling Karma +/- 5000 credits!\' sound at all familiar?
Listen, as soon as you start doing a shun system or any other variation, this game will turn into a livejournal voting community. People will avoid RPing because they won\'t want to draw attention to themselves from the regulars and suddenly find themselves at a disadvantage.
Let reuptation go by word of mouth. If your reputation preceeds you, it will be by what people know about you and by what guild you are in. If planeshift changes such that it becomes possible to break the law, then perhaps in rare events we could have trials. If found guilty, the offender might be tatooed or branded, and people will know what he or she did.
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I see what you\'re saying, point taken and recieved. No more argument from me.