PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Gentar on September 10, 2005, 07:05:12 am
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Well after expirementing with crystal blue for some time now I\'ve noticed that the skill system really makes no sense what so ever and i beleive it needs to be revamped. here is my case.
1. How does fighting monsters give you the skill to rank up mining, or any other skill for that matter? this makes absolutely no sense.
2. You would think, that practicing in a skill would increase your ability to perform it, even without training. Im aware that after visiting a trainer you are required to practice that skill, but this only takes a matter of minutes to level up and after that you gain no experience no matter how much you use it until you go back to a trainer.
3. The system almost makes you not want to use a skill unless youve gone to a trainer, because you know you;re wasteing your time in terms of gaining levels
I realize all of the role players would argue saying that you should perform a skill for its use and not to level it up, however the roleplayers should also have a problem with the unviability of the system. Since when in real life did cooking help you play soccer, and since when did practiceing something, even not when taking classes in the subject, not increase your skill with it.
I realize that planeshift wanted a unique system for leveling, but it is an illogical system.
Perhaps you could better it by:
1. making different types of progression points: Crafting points, Combat points, Social points, Magic points. You could then use these points to train in certain areas within those boundaries.
2. As for trainers, maybe they could just speed up the process to gaining a new level. For instance, If you visit a trainer you gain twice as much practice when doing the skill for one level. Then when you advance to that level you gain practice at a slower rate until you go back to a trainer. Training could be required onlyat certain levels, and otherwise could be optional to make leveling easier.
I seriosly doubt that they will change the sytem but it was just an observation I made.
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I like your different types of pp idea. Fighting to gain mining skills doesn\'t make much sense. :P
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There is no fighting to gain mining! There is only mining to gain mining! Unless I\'ve missed something horribly obvious!
To number two, the idea is that practical experience relies on theoretical experience. I think that training should go faster with a trainer, but you should be able to advance based purely on practical experience as well. Training should just make things go faster.
Number three is silly. Skills exist to be used because they\'re usefull. They aren\'t there simply to level up.
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HE means you fight to earn pp and then you use the pp for somthing else.
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I agree, it makes no sense at all. Hopefully by the time Steel Blue rolls around, we\'ll have overwhelmed Talad with enough concrete evidence that he can no longer argue against changing it. :)
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I agree. The current system doesnt really make a whole lot of sense. I think having progression points for different areas would be a good idea; either that or just a complete overhaul of the system.
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i agree with what zanzibar said, and shouldnt stats be harder to train than skills like it used to be?
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Yea, perhaps PP in the following area\'s:
Combat (weapons, armor use)
Casting
Crafting
Also I agree with Theoretical knowledge not being necessary compared to practical. Perhaps you can use trainers to increase skill to a certain point (albiet low) but after that only practical knowledge works. That might make it seem that theoretical knowledge only helps low level people. But then again, we could use theoretical knowledge as a way to also use special manuvers, or how to mine new ores or crafter different types of items. After that all practical. Hope this makes sense, might be too condensed.
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Well not everything is implimented yet, but still, I don\'t like it either and would rework it from scratch. It\'s not my decision though. :)
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I never saw the point of progress points or experience points. If you train a skill, you get practical experience in that skill, there\'s no need to also get some general exp./pp. \"Spending pps\" is just a strange system to transfer experience in one skill to an other. If we don\'t want that, we don\'t need pps at all.
I\'d rather see a system where you just have to pay a trainer (tria) to get the theoretical knowledge, without having to spend unnecessary pps.
What I do like in the current system is that you can\'t develop a skill without trainers. It\'s a matter of taste, but I like the fact that you have to search for the right trainer. Training all on your own is not realistic too. Autodidiacts are rare, and the few there are always use books and therefor knowledge of others.
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I definitly agree that the system of training is not really logical.
Maybe there could be two ways to up skills...
1. You could use raw pp points just to up the skills (this is of course after the pp points have been divided into proper sections).
2. Well just like you can learn how to play the guitar by yourself, say your rich, you can also hire someone to get a better understanding of it faster. However many people are still great at guitar even without a instructor, but it does take them alot more practice on their own.
Just a thought.
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It is so nice to see people agree in at least one thing :)
This matter is bugging me since months and so comes my proposition:
It is exactly this what Hitancrias has wrote. We don\'t need PP at all. We don\'t have to worry that eighter we have not enough money or not enough PP which is advantage. There is also no way we will train some skill doing somethink completly different.
Let\'s look at PP definition from players guide:
Progression Points can be used by the player to purchase training, special maneuvers, stat increases and so on. It\'s nothing more than a reflection of the experience you have gained.
We can same as good say character gets \"reflection of the experience\" in the process of practicing in the previous rank, just before the next rank training.
This will cause training of mages a lot more balanced comparing to fighters. As mage won\'t have to gather that much \"reflection of the experience\" as before. But still mages will ned a lot of money.
The stats would need to be developed in dfferent way as now, as i don\'t imagine someone just buying strenght agility or charisma just for money. It is wrong already so need to be changed anyway.
Last matter is, what about experience reward for quests? what will we get if not PP? I would propose some stats and skills increase, but how would that be done... People finish quests using different skills, so that would have to be dependent wich seem to be hard for me.
But still i don\'t like idea of gaining any kind of PP for doing quests, because in most causes we have more not spent PP than money, so it is like i earned somethink what will never help me anyway.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
Last matter is, what about experience reward for quests? what will we get if not PP?
Things like money, special items or access to new areas come into mind.
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Originally posted by hitancrias
Originally posted by Nikodemus
Last matter is, what about experience reward for quests? what will we get if not PP?
Things like money, special items or access to new areas come into mind.
Money, maby speacial items if they are more just for fun items and not crucial or important for game play.
One of the things I didn\'t like about RS was that you had to complete quests to get access to some rather large areas and important weapons and equipment.
While I will admit that this was not a problem for the majority; those roleplayers who would have gone against character do the quests where left out and givin a magor disadvantage.
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How about this:
- eliminate the PP system
- instead, skills are advanced by using the skill
- training causes skills to advance faster
- however, advancement is not dependant on training
Yay or nay?
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About skills I agree with zanzibar, but about Strenght, Agility...etc. There are 2 ways:
1) PP-s can be used only for stats, but this isn\'t very realistic, becouse of the same problem as with skills, you fight and than raise Int. for example...
2) Stats can be trained by activities, running around with heavy backpack increases endurance and strenght.
Fighting increases Strenght and Agility.
Using magic increases mental stats: every way increases the stat that it\'s dependant on...
But when stats rise by doing something the increase should be small enough...
And faster training could be done with trainers: in Gym\'s, nightschools :P, with jogging, etc...
And also there could be skill decreases, for exaple, if you only fight night and day, your mental skills would start to decrease(but at very slow rate) and the other way around (this could cut down the PL-ing, but there are always those who don\'t care...),
so you would have to do different things to keep your char balanced.
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Originally posted by Mortac
And also there could be skill decreases, for exaple, if you only fight night and day, your mental skills would start to decrease(but at very slow rate) and the other way around (this could cut down the PL-ing, but there are always those who don\'t care...),
so you would have to do different things to keep your char balanced.
That\'s unintelligent. Why does every fighter have to also be an uncultured idiot with no social skills? How narrow-minded.
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Fighting takes a lot more intelligence that people first imagine. There is a strategy to things, especially as you progress further into a skill - you\'re not going to be bashing things wildly with no direction, you\'re going to seek an opponent\'s weakness, try to sneak in a strike without receiving one, plan plan plan. A lot of it is just physical chess.
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Eliminte the ability to increase stats beyond character creation. To compinsate, make starting game decisions add and subtract from stats more dramatically.
Eliminate progress points completely.
Keep the training system requirement. You need to purchase skill till you fill a level, then return to practice said skill.
Add quests that increase a skill or ability. Quest of great strength as an example. Or Quest of sword mastery. Or for non-combatants, Quest of the Sacred Hot Wings.
My 2 cents
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In real life if you keep killing something (eg.monsters) you will get used to it and it will become natural though a trainer can teach you how to do that too but you will still need to train anyway, a book could tell you how to do a certain swing which could lead to a weakness in a monster also a trainer/book could teach a different grip for the sword, also after a lot of killing/ training you might be able to wield a sword 1 handed but say a race like a kran who is strong should be able to wield most weapons 1 handed depending on the weight of the weapon. Training on your muscle development well enable the factor to wield weapons as well, though weight should play a part as well, a heavy person won\'t be agile, fast or sneaky though he would be able to hold heavy items and armours and could swing faster so he might not be able to train skills up faster like agility or assassins/ninja skills, though a light person would be sneaky, quick and be (maybe) fire arrows while running (just a thought) so a light person would be suited to a ranger/ninja type class and they might not be able to train up skills faster like they won\'t be as good as chopping trees (for the wood for there bows and arrows) though they would be good at skills like crafting.
I also think there should be a skill which you can have respect for mother nature and can pick apples from a tree or get seeds and plant your own tree (lol) but yeh maybe it can do something with animals as well maybe
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Crap I\'ve been preaching for months:
- PP = die
- Stats advance with use (no manual training)
- Apprentice period for new skills, with training at NPCs for a fee
- Intermediate/advanced skill training at some NPCs for a fee, or on completion of a special quest (not necessarily required)
- Skills advance with use (ease of which is defined be pre-existing knowledge)
- Slight skill advancement from watching others
- Stats/skills regress somewhat without use (method TBD)
Threads:
Stats system need to be changed (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=16465&boardid=11)
A question to the devs (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=16902&boardid=11)
Combat idea 32-A18 (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=18687&boardid=11)
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My proposal (combination of ideas from various people):
* Do away with PP.
* Base stats work differently than other skills. They gain practice points and level just by using abilities that take advantage of them, or by doing quests/jobs, or sped up by purchasing books at the library, or time with a training dummy or something of that sort.
* Rather than have practical/theoretical knowledge per level, have separate practical and theoretical skill levels. Your practical level can be increased on its own just by using that skill. The theoretical level can be increased by buying training at a skill trainer. A higher theoretical level will allow you to train your practical level faster. Your practical level is limited by your theoretical level, but not by a hard \"your theoretical level must be a minimum of 40% of your practical level\" but a system where, when your practical level approaches 150%, it takes too long to increase your practical level that you basically have to level up your theoretical level. Now here\'s the justification:
You can practice swords on your own without training, and you will get better on your own, but after a point you will start to need guidance from someone with more experience in order to use more advanced sword techniques you can\'t think of on your own.
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I really like what Miya had going there, it is a good way of handleing it and is quite logical as well. I also like the idea of DaveG that watching people has a slight skill increase - but it shoul be from watching people with more skill than yourself. The only issue I have with you getting \"rusty\" from not using skills, is that you can\'t have it be based on a real time, as someone might be unable to play for a week. this shouldn\'t cost them anything, though perhaps you can combine Miya\'s ideas here. Make your theoretical knowledge disappear slowly at first, and then quickly each day (ingame day - time not logged in should not count) thereafter. The upshot of this is that you can\'t go do all sorts of theoretical training and then not do any practical training for a week because you\'d not have the same benefit(realisically). That way you would also not be losing your current skills, but you would provide an incentive to actually go use your theoretical knowledge sooner, and it would be worth more then as well. I also don\'t think we necessarily need different types of progression points, or to do away with PP\'s either. I just think there needs to be more ways of obtaining PP\'s than killing monsters or doing quests. Picking alot of mushrooms should gain you PP\'s, as should doing any mining or crafting. You should gain PP\'s by reading books, and from watching others duel.
A different type of PP system would be annoyingly complex I think, although I agree it would make a little more sense.
On a weird note here what about having PP\'s = a sign of respect. Trainers shouldn\'t charge you PP\'s for training - it should be trias only, but trainers with advanced skills, or high level skills, might not want to talk to someone with no community respect. The more PP\'s you have then the more and better NPC Trainers become opened up to you. With this, you could keep one type of PP only, and if used in combination with the idea of multiple ways of gaining PP\'s then you are doing quite well I think. Anyone here think I\'m a moron? lol
Any other ideas? Critique? Should I cut off my tongue to avoid more babble like this?
:D
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at the moment it takes only 6 or so rats to grow a lvl, the spending PP to grow a lvl in training is not the right way to go, Miya has a good way going i reckon
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Induane:
The \"experience by witnessing\" (#6) idea belongs to Kixie, and Cha0s came up with the first part of #4. The rest is mine. (Sorry, I should have cited them; quick post. The threads listed contain their origional posts.)
Miya:
Wonderful idea! :) Seperate exp for theory/practice would really make things more realistic/immersive, and it gets rid of the absolute requirement to pay for training.