PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Ethan on September 13, 2005, 04:37:28 pm
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Hi,
It is only a wish and I think it would never happen, but :
What about magic whitout mana ?
why ?
-Because mana is nonsense.
-Because in order to make a good game, you don\'t necessarily have to
copy, what other have done so far. It is good to innovate.
One of the best explanation of what is mana could be : it is used to represent \"mental stamina\". Now, \"mental stamina\" and \"body stamina\" are not splited but together in \"stamina\". I think there is no need to split them : if you can\'t move your arm because your body is too tired or because you are too tired (mental) to wish it, it is about the same thing. The cost of spell could be paid with stamina or hit-points.
But that doesn\'t mean magic is easier, to learn how to use glyph, to purify them, to combine them in order to have a spell, to cast a spell, you should have knowledge.
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Hm, well I was thinking something like this: No matter how much or little mana/stamina a character has, he can always cast most of his spells, just with much less power. Mana could be discarded and combined with general stamina, or it could simply be called \"mental stamina\" or \"fatique\". Point being, you will always be able to use magic, but for the big spells you will need to focus. There is already a seamless slider for controlling spell power (although I guess its not working like it should). Now, simply make it so that more powerful spells require and drain more fatique to cast, but you can also cast weak variants of the spells even with 0 mana/stamina.
Just an idea.
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Hmm... I suppose Xordan is against mana-based magic system so there\'s always the possibility that mana will be removed.
Although myself I think spell casting shouldn\'t have any limitations. No mana, no mental stamina and most of all no spells/day system...
I\'d like to see spell casting having the only draw back that whenever you try casting a spell, you may encounter some random backfiring. Keeping in mind that basic spells have minimal chance of that happening, whilst powerful spells quite high with the addition of results being pretty bad.
For example casting some simple fireball spell might cause slight fire damage to caster, while casting some powerful crystal way spell might cause caster to become blind for some time. Some over the top dark way spell might also cause instant death. This way people would think more of consequences, less of what should be mana/stamina \"points\" used on.
You wouldn\'t see mages casting out of boredom \"armageddon\" at a stupid rat, because it wouldn\'t be worth it...
It\'s much more realistic and fun, no matter how you look at it...
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I am agree about one point : you should be always able to cast spell/use magic abilities ..... but your dealing with your life (stamina/hp loses). About the cost of the spell, it should be relative to the difficulty of the spell and to the experience you have with it. But never really, with no cost. Whatever you do, there is always a price, life is life.
I would add one thing but I gess it has already been say. Magic (and also fighting, and all capacities in fact) should have malus due to the character\'s conscience and pain. (This can be represented, in order to initiate this system ,with the ratio of stamina and the ratio of hp, respectively.)
PS : This is also only my point of view.
PS : Didn\'t see your post, Draklar. Of course, draw back has to be implemented with magic. (This is in wishlist.) Someone using magic (in fact everybody should ever bother of the consequence. About no limitation, I would rather say : the stamina limitation is not a magic limitation but more a body/spirit limitation. And I thinks it is very needed.
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Mana represents mental stamina, and should therefore stay.
However, perhaps spells should cost a combination of mana, stamina, and health points. Some spells may cost only health points, others only mana, others a combination or perhaps all three.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Mana represents mental stamina, and should therefore stay.
Mana represents forces of ether floating throughout the world (just like eastern ki/chi energy). This and mental stamina are different things.
Also, mana can be used not only as an inner force, which gathers in mage\'s body. Mana can be also an outer force, which has to be entwined in order for spell to work... In such case there wouldn\'t be any mana points, because that doesn\'t change (asides from the fact that there might be more mana at some magical places, thus spellcasting would be easier or spells stronger).
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:-) Seems like GURPS definition, I like it.
When in my first post I explained mana, I was explained what mana was used in game for and so I called it mental stamina but the definition of Draklar explain what the concept mana really is.
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I still believe mana should stay
Edit: sorry i didnt give an explanation i was at school and it was lunch time
anyways... i just believe it should stay because, well what else could we use we must have something to use, this way someone couldnt use their 1000 attack fireblast over and over during a pk... maybe it would use stamina since if you drain your mental power you could become tired...
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Originally posted by Rage McCloud
I still believe mana should stay
I like this kind of post because it does really enrich the converstation.
Can you give any raison, explanation ?
I see one, but your may be more subtle : you are used to it and you don\'t see why it should be different.
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Your explanation makes as good as no sense to me.
Mana or mental stamina or whatever you want to call it has no direct relation to physical stamina. Physical stamina is the potency of your muscles while mana is magical energy.
However I do not really see why we need a mana bar, especially right now. Needing mana is yet another thing that currently unbalances whole the mages vs fighters equation. A fighter can keep hitting but a mage can\'t keep casting because he \'ll run out of mana.
The way I see it any spell needs mana/magical energy to be cast but I don\'t see why that energy has to come from the caster\'s own pool (mana bar). Instead it should come from your surroundings. A mage who starts to cast a spell gathers mana from his surroundings and when he has enough the spell is cast ... that is the idea behind the casting time being the main element and not the mana pool. The stronger the spell the longer it takes to cast. The better the mage the quicker he can cast/gather mana.
Building from this idea we can put a lot of diversity and strategy in the use of magics as well. We can create dark way spells that will directly feed off the energies of the caster. These spells will be cast immediately but they will drain the caster\'s health.
We can also have certain environments or weather conditions playing a role in casting times. For example blue way spells will be cast much faster underwater or when it rains than in the desert or on a dry sunny day. Red way spells will work immediately when there is enough fire around but won\'t work at all under water. Azure way spells work best in windy places while brown way spells can\'t be cast when the caster is flying high up in the air.
With this one could put a lot more variation in using magic because now the caster won\'t have to pay attention to their mana bar but instead will need to be careful what spells to cast in which environment. Mages will be getting environmental and meteorological bonuses or malluses on their casting time which can go from an immediate cast to a failed casting due to lacking energy.
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Your explanation makes as good as no sense to me.
Well... It\'s true that my English is not perfect.. But you are giving arguments, so that\'s fine.
Mana or mental stamina or whatever you want to call it has no direct relation to physical stamina. Physical stamina is the potency of your muscles while mana is magical energy.
Mana has no direct relation to physical stamina, I am agree. For what I called \"mental stamina\", it is true that is not really the same thing but when you are really \"low\" at one of them you can do nothing. Und the current state of developement of PS doesn\'t allow to distinguish each one from the other one. So as a beginning and in order to simplify the first implementation of it, I suggested to only use stamina.
However I do not really see why we need a mana bar, especially right now. Needing mana is yet another thing that currently unbalances whole the mages vs fighters equation. A fighter can keep hitting but a mage can\'t keep casting because he \'ll run out of mana.
That\'s the main point and we are agree.
Ceremony, which is composed by a amount of time, gestures, speech, symbols, objects, material and concentration is a help to the caster and help him to use surrounding mana.
The ceremony use stamina(body stamina can be a little for some movement, more if there is some kind of dance), \"mind stamina\" (concentration), may have blood like symbols, objects or material, and like I say before other symbols, objects or material.
The mage have to choose how he want to cast his spell but there will be bonus/according to the importance of the ceremony.
Experience allow to reduce the importance of the ceremony, and \"it is say that\" very skilled Mage can cast a spell without ceremony or with an impercetible one.
The environnement should give also bonus/malus as you explainded it.
The last thing is that the Mage is able to use his own energy(stamina,hp,age ...) in order to help the casting of the spell. However if the spell is miss-casted, the draw back are worse. This kind of spell is usually called \"dark\" or \"forbidden\".
PS: Feelings and devotion to the god related are also factors.
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I still think that higher level dark way spells should involve some sort of sacrifice to HP.... characters should even be able to become Lichs if they choose to. Undead characters would be cool.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Undead characters would be cool.
If there would be a free pvp against them ;)
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In real life a person wouldn\'t have a bowl of mana sitting next to him, he would use mental concentation though this a fantasy game, Zanzibar\'s idea of having a mix of pool for casting is good, there should also be a concentration bar as well so if your character isn\'t fully concentrating he might get put off or not do as much damage, some skills really require your magic ability like to summon something from nowhere or to fire a meteor though telekinisis or controlling an animal\'s mind would not need to need to use mana you would need mental concentration (mind abilities), but the use for mana should only be used on certain spells , there could be a spell where you use your own blood causing 5 or 10 dmg to you and pouring over a animal which you control which bites the opponent to bite him to do damage and rabies (hehe).
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Mana is always needed to cast spells. The only question is whether it should be an outer or inner force.
Mana is the force of changes. As long as a spell involves changes, mana is the first thing needed for a spell to work.
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for a stronger wave of energy to fire at someone you would need a bit of mana but also you need to concentrate and stuff, but yeh mana still needs to be in the game
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About the \"need\", as Draklar said spell works using mana. So it is needed. But when we see it as an outer force, the cost is not mana it-self but \"something\" that allow the Mage to use an amount of mana.
\"something\" is what I said : ceremonie, inner energy, feelings and devotion to the good, and concentration.
Mana \"still need to be in the game\" but not necesserily in the character. With an outer force it will be \"in the map\". (the background of the map, and its weather defines the environement descibed above.)
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Well i like the idea of a concentration bar... like if you chat then it takes it down a little and stays around 75% then slowly goes back up... and you could train your concentration... if it wasnt high enough then maybe you could get distracted by someone talking directly to you... or if someone made a loud noise... but on the other hand if it was trained extremely well... you would still loose it if you talked but thats like the only way and if your concentration wasnt high enough and you summoned something, it would summon something of lower \"greatness\" or somehow the system would purposely \"glitch\" it and it would come out deformed...
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that would be seriously funny if a mage was doing a spell and someone whistles and puts him off
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Originally posted by darkw00t
that would be seriously funny if a mage was doing a spell and someone whistles and puts him off
Seriously XD I\'d die laughing.
If I may chuck my own two tria into the discussion:
In a world where \"mana\" permeates the air and the very sense of things, I still believe that there are (should be?) individuals who have a more or less \"natural talent\" to be greater than others. It\'s an art. And like art, there are those who can draw or paint without any training at all, those who become masters only after serious work, and those who put in serious work but still can only make stick figures. Granted, this should be left up to the player behind the character (and mine is the very last of the three choices), but creating a system were magic is as easily acceptable as another form of actual physical manipulation, in my mind would only create a greater number of I-can-do-anything\'s and My-power-knows-no-bound\'s. I don\'t know. Somehow, from somewhere in this thread I got the feeling that this would be a side-effect.
Unless! Ceremonies :D Ceremonies are good! Needing certain items to work with magic, perhaps items that have a concentrated amount of (specialized?) mana, and bringing them together in some way... Magical smelting of objects :D Woooo.
PlaneShift already has a mental stamina bar, doesn\'t it? It\'s that blue bar below the yellow-orange regular stamina. I\'m not sure, I\'ve never touched magic ;) So some system of mental stamina is either already in-place in a rudimentary way, or going to be put in. I don\'t quite like Rage\'s idea about a concentration bar that affects anything besides magic [ like chat - I mean come on, have you noticed how often are people talking without actually thinking about it? ;) ] - I think a mental stamina relating to magic just as physical stamina relates to fighting/mining/crafting would be just fine. At least, I cannot think of a way to implement anything else.
Originally posted by Ethan
But when we see it as an outer force, the cost is not mana it-self but \"something\" that allow the Mage to use an amount of mana.
Precisely. What about calling it simply the capacity a caster has for manipulating/moving mana through his or her body for specific ends? You train your mind and body to conduct greater and greater amounts of mana... but this is still another form of mana points, in the end.
And now I lost track of what I was writing, as I\'m late for class :) Gotta love spontaneous posting.
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Yes, i figured that that blue bar was for magical things... anyways yes objects would be cool... and once characters are fully customizable maybe there could even be VOODOO DOLLS! hah! but for real... Yes mana could be taken out... but there would have to be something in place of it... Concentration is a great one to put in...
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Concentration should be a new skill stat altogether
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Originally posted by darkw00t
Concentration should be a new skill stat altogether
The question is what would it affect, and how would it affect that?
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Your mind abilities really also it could affects choices you make (??)
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Mind abilities..? Isn\'t that what mental stamina is for, a little? Also, when making a suggestion, try to expand on it as much as you can. \"Choices you make\" is really too vague...
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i mean it shouldn\'t just be for magic abilities other suggestions to what else it could be are welcome
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I like the idea of reducing casting time for higher skills or level of spell. Really powerful mages should have some near instantanious spells.
As far as the externa mana goes, it seems like it would be hard to code. The server would have to keep tract of Mana as an object? Seems like it would be like having 10,000 invisible carrots on the map. It seems like it would mean the Mage would have to constantly keep moving around too. Did I miss something?
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No, mana isn\'t an object any more than air is. It\'s just energy flowing through the world that can be manipulated as much as air currents. It\'s nearly limitless.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
As far as the externa mana goes, it seems like it would be hard to code. The server would have to keep tract of Mana as an object? Seems like it would be like having 10,000 invisible carrots on the map. It seems like it would mean the Mage would have to constantly keep moving around too. Did I miss something?
I could be a way but arrounding mana\'s resources are huge, so it doesn\'t really matter but the map may be able to store a mana level.
And casting doesn\'t change that level or so few that you don\'t need to bother about.
Changing the mana resource are done with map-sized spell, and this kind of huge, enormous spell should not been given to players.
Ps : Why there is always people posting at the same time... grrrr... lol
About the concentration being disturbed by chatting, I like this idea. But let\'s go more generic. Concentration is needed for all actions (figthing is not an exception) and any actions not related to the main one will disturb. So in order to have a good implementation, devs have to considers all user\'s inpout. (Chat cannot be more disturbing than looting a corpse and devs should set what action you can do in parallele and what is the malus related to this one.)
There is some positiv points to loo at :
- it is more realistic and so the rpg will be more \"subtle\"
- this give a meaning to futur \"telepathy\" spell (If we say that using telepathy communication need less concentration that real one), so this kind of spell could be used for group/guild chat.
and negative points :
- players can use extern chat in order to avoid malus...
- this is hard to implement so it won\'t be the first thing to be implemented
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About the stamina limit for all actions, there is a way to resolve it. But it also give a lot of works (join the community !!!). Stamina could have no real minimum-limit ; above 0 it is like now. But under it give you malus in all actions, you will (or something else) is used to know how far the stamina can lower. If you fail a will test/ or if you break the limit, you fall unconscious.
This idea is also generic : magic, figthing and all the others...
forum-related comment : This idea must allready have been posted and this is not really the subject of this thread.
and this one too:
Skill(s) (not exclusively magical) should reflect, your ability to
- use one type of glyph
- purify them
- create spell by combining glyph
- cast each specific spell$
- extract/manipulate mana
- know spell : if you see one to be able to identify it and
describe its action
- know/use ceremony
- concentrate
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Well about concentration, I say the way should be rotated. Intellegence should be a global mental stat, so if you get higher int all the spells would improve, that would make more sense. And then concentration shoud be red way! Or red way can be switched with blue cause telepathathy would be blue right?
On topic, the word \"mana\" is SO overused. Its like.. every single game with magic calls that bar \"mana\" and it\'s ALWAYS blue X(
What does it mean anyway? Its not the bread stuff that rained from heaven, that\'s manna soo..
I posted this in another post, there should be long-term stamina and short-term stamina, (Short term runs out quick, recharges quick, long-term runs out very slow, doesn\'t recharge unless you like sit down or drink potions or something. That is more life-like, you can only run for some time but you can recover and run some more, but you won\'t be able to walk/run from mississippi to new york without sleeping) and magic will use long-term along with every thing else. Fighting too. Pretty much anything. In real life you can\'t fight for 5 hours non-stop either. :rolleyes:
So everything should use the long-term stamina, mining, fighting, casting, reading, whatever, except sitting and sleeping etc
Anybody read the Wheel of Time books? I like that idea.. Mages are only like water wheels in the endless river of current that is the True Source, the Source never \"runs out\" but intense use leaves the caster fatigued. Based on experience, casters can handle variable amounts of the Source at once, if they draw on it too much at once they either die with a catalysmic explosion or they get burnt out and can\'t use the Source any more. To use more of it at once they need special items (angreal), and some are more powerful than others.
So basically you can handle bigger spells with more experince, but with special items your level acts as if it were n levels higher. Continuous use sucks up long-term stamina, bigger spells use it faster.
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But you would be put off if someone talked to you but things like people greeting you could put you off though everyone will just do it and you won\'t be able to do the spell or watever, but say if it is raining you might have a chance of getting put off or if there is a lightning flash or a sudden change of weather would put someone off, a higher lvl of concentration will help this from happening, there could be other forms of disturbing your concentration though chat should not be one due to facts that people will dilliberately put you off on purpose
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I like the short term and long term idea, as most of your skills (esp. Mining, fighting and etc.) will use stamina up and you will get tired, this combines with coffee thread in a way that coffee will bring up your stamina in short bursts (though there are side effects) but mana should be used though using a big sword slash should take up no mana at all it should use up just your stamina and telekenetics should use concentration though summoning a big fireball will need a mixture of skills, but these could well be divided into 2 stamina groups that you talked of, so yeh so far this thread has been a good idea in my opinion
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About the Wheel of Time books, it is an exemple of :
- mana as an outsource (mana being called by another way.. )
- draw back (explosion, burnt, no use..)
- ceremony (angreal..)
Originally posted by darkw00t
chat should not be one due to facts that people will dilliberately put you off on purpose
In fact malus/bonus with chat should be given according with what the mage wrote. The mage will always hear but his concentration may help him to not pay attention to it. But if he answer that would means the dialog get a part of concentration of him.
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Personally I don\'t like the idea of concentration at all ... to me it is implied in ones skill level. One of the very first things a mage learns is to concentrate without being distracted and as their skill grows their concentration grows.
I mean really if you can cast a spell while a Tefusang charges at you and perhaps even takes swings at you or when you are standing in the middle of a battlefield ... then don\'t you think it would be ridiculous if you got distracted by chatting?
Allowing a caster to be distracted makes them utterly useless because I can\'t honestly think anything that could disrupt concentration as well as standing face to face with your own death. So basically this idea makes it so that only the people with enormous concentrating abilities can fight with magic.
As far as the externa mana goes, it seems like it would be hard to code. The server would have to keep tract of Mana as an object? Seems like it would be like having 10,000 invisible carrots on the map. It seems like it would mean the Mage would have to constantly keep moving around too. Did I miss something?
Actually it wouldn\'t be that hard, the way I see it mana would be represented with just another variable, basically like the gamma/lighting of an area. One area has a normal mana variable which means all spells take the normal ammount of time to be cast. Another area has a normal mana variable plus a 1.5x Crystal Way variable. This means in this area Crystal Way spells will be cast 1.5 times as fast, say for example because the area is saturated with pieces of crystal which have fallen off the Sun.
So you see mana wouldn\'t act as an item but as a variable depending on the area. You have a constant which means every spell acts normally and on top of that you can either have a positive or negative value for each or all magic ways. I don\'t think it would require that much programming, of course still a bit but it \'ll be worth it if you ask me.
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Originally posted by Ethan
Mana \"still need to be in the game\" but not necesserily in the character. With an outer force it will be \"in the map\". (the background of the map, and its weather defines the environement descibed above.)
That is where I got the idea that mana was an object. I was speaking in terms of programing not lore.
If you assume the area around the caster has an infinite amount of \"mana\" then you don\'t have to keep tract of it. In real terms this will just mean your mage will be limited by the casting time on each spell. If you add long cool down counters to spells then mages will not be able to chain cast indefinately.
This is unless your of the camp that wants your mages to be gattling guns that never run out of ammo.
[edit: @ Zan good point, I did not think of the gama codes already in the map. However I don\'t know if they are dynamic. I think they are client side. Mana should be server side data. that is if it is going to change over time]
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Well about chat disturbing I would say, it is not totaly useless : you can not fear a charge of some kind of beast, but being bothered by your friends who ask you how to inverse a matrice... (Try to cast a spell and at the same time to inverse matrice) Of course the chat malus will not be to high.
And as It need a lot of programming for only a small thing in the game, I gess it won\'t be. But it would be great... Maybe far later...
If you assume the area around the caster has an infinite amount of \"mana\" then you don\'t have to keep tract of it. In real terms this will just mean your mage will be limited by the casting time on each spell. If you add long cool down counters to spells then mages will not be able to chain cast indefinately.
Well, long cool down counters.... On of the point of this thread is to find a better way, the use of stamina (as all ingame actions) is a better one, I think.
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Sounds like you just want to use the stamina bar instead of the mana bar. That would mean a mage was out of stamina would be a useless lump, and be esily killed as they could not cast or run.
I like the way that your idea fits into the lore. Power is drwn from the crystal. But, It comes down to how you would like to mages used. Do you want to have them store up a big pile of mana then use it all at once for a quick kill, then have a long down time while they rest. Kinda like catapults. Or should then be more like archers with out the whole problem of needing arrows.
Buffs typically use less mana, but without a mana bar then buffs would be unlimited. Having short spell effects would compinsate for this , but would mean mages would do a lot of clicking.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Or should then be more like archers with out the whole problem of needing arrows.
And with chance of getting youself hurt (spell casting is more dangerous than archery).
Also, casting buff spells of same time five times at once shouldn\'t be any different than casting it just once.
If you cast \"Giant\'s Strength\" then the spell should give you speciffic strength (like +40). Casting it again shouldn\'t change anything. The spell isn\'t supposed to give you numbers, but to morph your muscles to a form that would be present if you were somewhat bigger. It might at best prelong the spell duration.
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What I was getting at with the buff issue was that without mana to regulate a mage\'s casting one could just chain cast and quickly buff large groups of people. If the spells effects took 30 minutes to wear off then one mage could keep 100\'s of players buffed. If the length the effect was reduced then the mage would have to rebuff players frequently and the number of total players that one mage could keep buffed would be lower.
However, with a mana bar, You can adjust the amount of mana the buff uses to effectivly limit the number players a mage will buff.
The same thing can be done with a recast timer, if the spell can not be recast for 10 minutes and it lasts 30 minutes then a mage can only buff 3 people.
I am sure there are other ways to limit mages as well.
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Note: most of this post is to derwooly.
Right, well if the magic came from the \"True Source\", you wouldn\'t need to keep track of it at all, just slice the variable mana off the table and be done with it :P
And yes, but the long-term stamina would run out MUCH slower and it would be used by everything else. And yes, if the mage runs out of the long-term stamina he/she would be a useless lump. That is better; that is how it would be in real life (as in fantasy world real life) , the idiot would use the magic until he/she collapses and is trampled by the ulbernaut :P
That would add another strategic element to the game also; it is dangerous to use up the last drop of your long-term stamina and whoever does deserves to die anyway. You should always conserve a bit. If the long-term stamina goes to zero I guess the character would just collapse and go to sleep until the stamina reaches 5% or so, then regains conciousness.
And yes, there would be no restrictions in time except the casting time. There is no time restriction in sword fighting or archery; why should there be for magic?? :D Using one universal power source would effectively balance out the fighting completely. To make close combat more fair though, since it can\'t be used at range, I\'d say it drains just as much power as the basic-level spells and it\'s easy to train. It shouldn\'t really do much more damage; I don\'t thing a fireball would hurt less than a sword slice :P
Oh and about the casting time, yeah the higher your level the more of the True Source you can draw on and the faster you will get the power to throw a fireball. The power draw enhancing items would make this even faster. Higher level mages should be able to cast most common spells instaneously, but I guess there needs to be something to prevent someone from throwing 120 fireballs a minute.. Which contradicts my previous statement. I\'d say if you have used a certain number of l-t stamina points in 10 seconds you start taking damage (from drawing on too much power at once). :D
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So I swing a sword and do 100 points of damage and it costs me 5 stamina points.
I cast a spell it does a 100 points of damage and costs me 5 stamina points.
It looks like mages will be doing the same damage per second as fighters but at range. They will also need the same stamina as a fighter if they hope to do the same damage over time as a warrior.
This sounds like a diferent system than I am used to, I am not saying it could not work just saying high stamina mages is not the norm.
[Edit: off topic-- I read some of the web site in your sig this is funny and so true...
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Originally posted by derwoodly
What I was getting at with the buff issue was that without mana to regulate a mage\'s casting one could just chain cast and quickly buff large groups of people. If the spells effects took 30 minutes to wear off then one mage could keep 100\'s of players buffed. If the length the effect was reduced then the mage would have to rebuff players frequently and the number of total players that one mage could keep buffed would be lower.
I\'m playing a tabletop where there is no mana points or anything like that... And it\'s not an issue. One that spells require time to cast (and spell wears off at about 5 times longer time than casting), so you can support at best 4-6 people in such way (which would be normal for a group); Two that there\'s always danger of spell backfiring...
Of course, no one would set 30 minutes as the time for spell to wear off... That\'s ridiculous... Just look at the spells that we actually already have in PS.
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In the table top game, can you chain cast as well?
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Originally posted by derwoodly
In the table top game, can you chain cast as well?
What do you mean by \"chain cast\"? :|
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I use chain casting to mean casting the same spell in rapid fire succesion. Although I have heard it used to mean casting without pausing. Usually done by mad clicking on the spells hot button or mad hotkey pressing.
I believe in NWN it was a spell that let Wizzards cast faster than normal. Anyways, it means you would use up your mana bar fast if you had one.
I am making the assumption that spells will be more powerfull in the future. If they remain weaker than swords there really is nothing wrong with letting Mages types cast as fast as they can press the hot key. In my opinion, that does not make for a fun game. But that is just me, and I dont have to play a mage, I am happy with warriors, untill it becomes all about the equipment and not about tactics.
Its night night time now, and I have a busy weekend comming up. Enjoy!
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Well, if you are powerful enough you can even cast there up to four fireballs at once (one after another). It\'s all about how well you deal with magic (contact with ether) there.
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MAGIC WITH OUT MANA....
STUPID IDEA sorry.... mana is the source of magic.... your soul power... nots not like stamina...
if your soul is able to cast well or body is tired you should still be able to cast....
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Please read all the posts carefully before posting, Gravalden.
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you got the stupid idea, mana is a little blue bowl of water (what every game uses anyway) sitting in the corner that mysteriously goes down
Stamina should be used with \"mana\" because using \'mana\' drains down your energy which is your stamina causing you to become tired and lose concentration which in turn will defect your spells ability (make it less powerful).
Using a fireball for example will require somewhat magic to summon it up so while summoning it up you are heavily concentrating and this fireball will be sucking littles bit of magic force aka \'mana\' out of you causing you to lose stamina and lose concentration and so on. Using a mind spell like telekenetics will not require mana it will require your concentration because your using your mind to do it like summoning something will use up \'mana\' force to create it. If you did a twirling sword slash it would just use your stamina cause in real i could do a twirling sword slash and all it will do is make me a bit tired. That is the explanation on what stays and what goes
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Originally posted by darkw00t
Using a mind spell like telekenetics will not require mana it will require your concentration because your using your mind to do it like summoning something will use up \'mana\' force to create it.
Err... That wouldn\'t even be a spell... Moving objects by summoning wind is using a spell... this isn\'t. What you call mind spell is actually mindcrafting, which isn\'t spellcasting.
Spell is a pre-formulated action/event, using pure will to influence surroundings is something completely different.
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Well even if mana does go away there has to be something in its place... concentration and stamina are very logical answers if you think about it... you must concentrate to cast and it would ware out your bodily ability to cast it... i mean like chi/energy... it wouldware it down thus making you very unable to do much...
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Originally posted by Rage McCloud
Well even if mana does go away there has to be something in its place...
Why exactly? I\'ve seen system where there is nothing of that sort. It works like a charm. Better than any mana-based system I\'ve seen so far. Fighting is more fluent, more strategic and way more interesting.
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Mana has to be used for certain spells though there are some spells that just don\'t need mana and other games use it anyway so you should just get a list of spells and decide which uses lots of mana, a little bit of mana and ones that don\'t need mana at all
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If it doesn\'t use mana, it isn\'t magic. What you gave as an example is an eastern ki/chi technique, hardly something that could be considered \"magic\". The biggest difference is that mana is used to recreate the spells that you have memorized in your spell book. Mindcrafting deals with forces that aren\'t memorized in any way. It is a skill that could be used in various ways without writing anything in a spell book or collecting glyphs.
Like I already said, mindcrafting isn\'t something that could be called spellcasting, at all...
There used to be martial arts skills in Planeshift which dealt with such energies. Now that they are gone, you probably won\'t even see such manifestations anyway...
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Why do we need mana all the time though, i agree that about 80% or more of those spells will require mana but not every spell needs mana, i will look at the spells and see which ones require mana and not in my opinion
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Well... i have said it before and it apparently hasnt been read by someone... mana is needed mainly so that you cant just cast a spell over and over again... even if there is a wait time between castings... there must be a limit to how many times... like in a PvP duel... cast run cast run cast run cast run cast run over and over until someone is dead... i mean it could be some mage with 10 health vs a fighter with 1000 health... and the fighter would eventually die... because fighters use non-ranged and mages use ranged... unless the fighter is an archer... It just makes sense to use concentration or that blue stamina bar... because if you think about meditation and all that stuff... you will tire from spell casting... i know you all say just because someone else uses that, doesnt mean we have to... but i cant really say an explenation of this IRL... some shows if the person uses too much whatever it is at one time then their energy is drained...
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Here is the list of spells i\'ve seen (just basics) and i this what could happens with them:
1.Crystal Way- Healing Spell- (what you can use) You can convert the map\'s mana into life force to use on target to heal them, use CONCENTRATION for a better result in healing OR you could sacrifice a bit of your health to heal them, for ressurecting only the mana way works
2.Crystal Way-Summon Missile Spell- You use mana as you create the spell.
3.Red Way-Flame Burst- Mana though you CAN use concentration for better results
4.Azure Way-Defensive Wind-You can use you mind or mana to use it as you could just control the wind or summon the winds.
5.Blue Way-Cold Spell-Mainly mana with a bit of mind ability used
6.Dark Way-Weakness Spell-Mana
7.Brown Way-Protection and Summoning spells-The protection could be used by mind though summoning has to be used by mana.
That is just 7 spells so there could be a lot more spells though not every single uses plain mana so that is my point
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Originally posted by Rage McCloud
Well... i have said it before and it apparently hasnt been read by someone... mana is needed mainly so that you cant just cast a spell over and over again... even if there is a wait time between castings... there must be a limit to how many times... like in a PvP duel... cast run cast run cast run cast run cast run over and over until someone is dead... i mean it could be some mage with 10 health vs a fighter with 1000 health... and the fighter would eventually die... because fighters use non-ranged and mages use ranged...
All right, this is sooo going to backfire...
Read the third post of this very thread..
Or no, I better quote it...
Originally posted by Draklar
For example casting some simple fireball spell might cause slight fire damage to caster, while casting some powerful crystal way spell might cause caster to become blind for some time. Some over the top dark way spell might also cause instant death. This way people would think more of consequences, less of what should be mana/stamina \"points\" used on.
Also, did you actually try to cast spells while running? Somehow I always had it failing for me whenever I tried... Not to mention you could simply wait for mana to regenerate while running... That has been done back when you could run&cast.
@darkw00t: Huh? How did you come across such coclusions? For example,
7.Brown Way-Protection and Summoning spells-The protection could be used by mind though summoning has to be used by mana.
Did you actually see description of the protection spell currently available in-game?
Either way, I have absolutely no idea why you think those spells should use mind force (no reasons given in your post)...
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The brown way was a bit mixed up as i didn\'t know much about it, though the consequences you said i didn\'t read and they could work though in my spell post it is stating how a mage could cast those spells, he doesn\'t have to do it that way i\'m just saying it is possible to do it that way instead of following every other game and using mana for everything
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Rage McCloud
Well even if mana does go away there has to be something in its place...
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Why exactly?
well the reason i put that someone didnt read my post was because i had already explained why and didnt see any reason to explain again...
anyways... yes the backfiring would be good too... there could be a casting skill... and the description could be like \"Casting, This skill deals with how well you chant or recite things... blah blah blah\"
and if it isnt high enough it says \"You casted the spell wrong and thus is backfired\"
Blah did Blah to Blah...
and it would be funny to see healing... if it backfired... it healed the nearest NPC/Enemy...
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The backfire thing works well with concentration, if you\'ve been put off (eg. lightning flash) you might backfire cast or you could lower the spells effectiveness
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I hope I do not add Draklars pain on this.
I think the point was that... All the other games use mana as a way of controling the amount of damage that a mage/caster class can do.
What is proposed here is to do away with the idea that a mage/caster would ever be caught powerless. Yes this is like McCloud\'s Full Metal Alchemist. The damage per second is controled by spell damage and casting time.
In McClouds example of the warrior and the wizzard battle where the warrior has 1000 points of damage and the wizzard has 10 but kills the warrior by cast, run away, cast, run away technique, balancing could be done by giving warriors speed bonuses, or magic resistance, or stunning abilities.
Personally, I don\'t care if the wizzard can beat the warrior as long as the warrior has some sort of role in the game I would be happy. If the mages can tank, and damage, then some balancing would be needed.
BTW I realize PS does not have classes, and it is possible to make a sword wielding mage. Therefore balancing all the skills so there is a reason to train them is a seperate from the mana issue. Actually it helps the wizzard warrior battle. If the warrior with 1000 hps learns a skill level 1 spell that does 10 points of damage along with his sword skill of 200. Then the battle is his.
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there should be a huge limit to a skill, say 500 so that if that person non stop trains that skill he will get better, so it will take years for a person to train 2 skills to lvl 500, it could be less but what i mean is that it will be really hard to get a good warrior/mage or a tanked up mage
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Dark,
I am a bit confused by what kind of mana system you are invisioning. You have mentioned that some spells would use mana some would not.
If I understand correctly, then the Mana bar would stay and some spells would still drain the bar and others would not. For example a \"rock skin\" spell would not use mana, as it would draw all its power from the users mind. But the summoning spell would lower the mana bar.
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Originally posted by Rage McCloud
well the reason i put that someone didnt read my post was because i had already explained why and didnt see any reason to explain again...
And all your points could be countered with my first post in this thread... Thus none of them were in any way valid when it came to this discussion. I was asking for something that could bring the discussion forward, not put it into some loop.
You still didn\'t explain why it has to be (implicating that it indeed is a must; That the system cannot work without it) replaced. Merely pointed out why you think it would be better.
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rock skin will require mana, most spells will though some spells will be benifeted from concentration eg. healing, both ways will drain a bit of stamina/fatigue, wind spell for example may be used with concentration on a windy day though if it is isn\'t a windy day you will need to use mana to summon the up the wind. What i am saying is most spells will need mana though there should be some times where you don\'t have to use mana, alot of games have a fast lunge and big slash or something that uses mana, that is not what i want as they should just be using stamina, if you fire 3 arrows at once, it should only use the same amount of stamina as it would with a normal fire you just lose 2 more arrows, if you a lighter for eg. and you light an arrow on fire it still uses the same amount of stamina as a normal arrow though if you don\'t have a lighter etc. you would need to summon a fire bolt or whatever, this would require mana force. You should be getting what i mean now, but say if you concentrate for a wind spell and there is no wind then it\'ll just say \"not enough wind\" or \"you cannot do that\"
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How can I say this without sounding mean... Maybe a few smilies will help :) :)) :P
What MMORPGS have you played before? I have never played a game with a spell system like you describe.
[Edit: your post would easier to read with a few gaps between paragraphs. like the ones I have above]
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So your saying every MMORPG needs to copy each other.
I have played NWN, Diablo 2, Dungeon Seige 2 and the list goes on, I have just quit playing MU (i got bored really quickly) and realised that high lvls had all the fun in that game and you had to be high lvl to use certain characters. The game should be really fun when you start as well, for example- special game events or guild games where you don\'t have to be lvl 100 in something to play it. Also the character thing in MU was not a bad idea but i would not want to watch numbers come up on a screen killing and killing the same monster for like a year until i reach lvl 220! just to do that process over again.
(back on topic)In MU there was a high lvl skill which was a twirling slash for a warrior which required a lot of mana, now really if you did a twirl with a pole you wouldn\'t need to be magic to do it though (remember these weapons are quite heavy) it would be tiring, i mean you could become stronger so the weapon feels lighter though it will still make you lose stamina, which comes to my point that not all skills (MOST MAGIC SKILLS WILL STILL NEED MANA) will require mana which leads to my above posts with the weather and so on (alot of my non-requiring mana skills are for warriors and rangers)
I hope you can understand about my point now.
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Well the entire reason I say this is good is because it would be GOOD, FUN, and REALISTIC. Unique is good, this game should be set apart.
I still say mana should come from an outside source, we should just slice the entire variable \"mana\" and have everything use stamina. Would require more strategy and care.
What exactly is \"Mana\"? Is it from diablo or something cause like every single fantasy game uses it X( I mean it doesn\'t make any sense is it inner strength or something?
It should make you tired anyway. Sword fighting, mining, all everything else should make you tired. Magic should make you tired too. It just makes sense to use the long-term mana.
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Originally posted by Neryam
I still say mana should come from an outside source, we should just slice the entire variable \"mana\" and have everything use stamina. Would require more strategy and care.
I am totally agree. * And for the cost it would be like all skills, using stamina. Of course this rule of \"stamina use\" could be also been enhanced in order to diffenrentiate \"mental skill use\" from \"body skill use\" and \"short-stamina\" from \"long-stamina\".
But there is laso a point to look at : player don\'t have to follow a \"real sleep cycle\" but it could been something near... Maybe, by using drogs (like coffe) and spells, characters should be able to stay awaken more than in our world, the real one. Some draw back could be added to such methods.
darkw00t : Well, spell (that is to say, magic) use mana, it is the definition... But maybe I understoond what your are saying. I will try :
#What you call magic with mana is magic.
( yes, lol)
#What you call magic without mana is mindcrafting or psionics kills. (Kind of abnormal physic skills using mind, is is quite a modern point of view, will be hard to put that in a medieval-fantasy rpg...)
Or is the consequence of high experience in a skill.
#What you call no-magic but using mana is in fact magic related to the skill. ( Like a fighter\'s fire-sword. )
So your point is character should use mindcrafting-psionic if this can perform the action they want to and if not they should use magic...
Magic and mindcrafting-psionic don\'t use the same explanation-background-awarness_of_the_process , it is quite strange to mix them. Personnaly, I don\'t like it.
Ps : I don\'t understand what you called \"long term mana\", Neryam.
* Even if I am more to move the mana-variable to the area in order to simulate a global mana level ; see pots above about the environnemnt. I am fully aware that such a thing is a detail, and that the first thing to do is remove mana variable from the character.
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I am not saying to use mind control in the game though, i am saying to use concentration at a certain level within the game, i\'d agree with what Neryam said about the stamina and so on.
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OK, lets all hold hands and acknowlege something that we have all known for years: D&D STYLE MAGIC IS GAY!!!!!
Spellbooks with disappearing ink is dumb... not \"remembering\" a certain spell once it is cast is dumb..
The whole point of MAGIC in any mythology is that it is a force which turns the commonplace necessities of resource management and causality on their heads.
There should be no MANA further, There should be no limit to casting..
What there should be is a price to be paid for weilding magic... Some long term toll it takes on the caster, aspecially when done in a way which compromises his guiding philosophy.
Heres how it works: Lets say Magic skills run 0-300 and spells (a combination of spell difficulty * intensity) run 1-250. The rule is : You can cast any spell at a value
A good wizard might be a guy who never seems to do much but conjure neat looking but useless effects to amust children or sit beggin for change in the town square while spectral violin music plays from no visible agency
A neutral Wizard might spend weeks at a time silently poring over ancient texts, not a metphysical flicker to be seen...
An evil Wizard might be a guy who always gets his way... Not by roasting you with a giant fireball, but by crooking his eyebrow at you in just such a way as to say \"I could quite easily roast you with a fireball, or any of a thousand worse things if you weren\'t nearly beneath my notice, now do as I say, worm!\"
Fighters are a dime a dozen, and should be, they are flexible, robust, they can afford to screw up badly, dust themselves off and try again, people like, respect, or fear them based on what they DO... But wizards are all about what they ARE... the abillity to summon enough occult force to light a friggin candle should make whole villages weak in the knees at the sight of it...
Having a wizard go adventuring with you should be oddly frustrating.. You know that he could easily teleport you right to your destination, level the enemy, and have you back by lunch, but instead, he spends most of his time reading or sitting by the campfire brewing tea while you do all the work... you call for his aid and he smiles knowingly, you ask his advice and he sighs distantly... But then, out of the blue, he applies just the right ammount of meaphysical influence at just the right place at just the right time, and rearranges all the courses of fate around him, making the impossible possible. Then he quietly goes back to the fire and starts water for tea....
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Well Draklar... lets not get into a fight... but loop?
HAHAHAHAH please count how many posts dont say anything of an idea that was stated before... i mean ones that they repeared or knowingly repeated from someone else just to further the conversation and get their point across...
now count the posts that do...
and yes i like the idea that was stated in the post above this one... and the same idea taht was stated many times before... but this one explains it more... i DONT think it should be an ungodly terribly wickedly evil punishment though... because then we wouldnt have as many mages... WAIT something just clicked... thats EXACTLY what we want... MAGES ARE RARE IN THE OLDEN DAYS OF RPG\'S TIMES!!! So they should be rare... thus making them seem a lot more powerful...
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Sorry if this is off-topic but a person could easily make a warrior-mage so they wear the best armour and not get hurt while they cast spells at a distance sooo.. having armour when casting (plated armour not robes) should highly decrease the spell\'s damage making it more fair, this should go a lot of ways eg. mage wears robes, rangers wear leather or light plate or they can\'t run and shoot, assassins wears there assassin clothes etc.
Rage McCloud is kinda right in the fact that mages were not much back in the medieval days and in real life a mage would be really bad at first though become very powerful once experienced, a person would stick to 1 or 2 classes as there main classes eg. i\'d be mainly a archer though i would also be a warrior if you came to close combat or if i lost the items and whatever, though a mage to be good would have to practise a lot reading books (there should be a bookreading skill) and so on.
I think using mana only when the time is right is the way to go. Also every skill should have a stamina system and the magic should have a concentration skill as well
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I think that getting magic should be really difficult to start off with... You shouldn\'t get any magic skill from chargen (at least in final version, we need lots of casters for debugging).
The things which now give you Mlvls in chargen should instead give you no skill, but higher magic-oriented stats.
You should have to start your magic training young, so be sure to start a magic-seeking path before you get 100pp (If pp are still in use). First, you should have to find a master of one of the magic orders every npc should have a clue to find at least one master, so you ask around... Every clue that you collect may be counted as a mini-quest, and the first time you talk to the master you should get small rewards for having gathered them (to discourage outright ooc influence where you walk right to the secret master of all darkway and say \"please train\"))
Lets say you find the master (if the master is evil, maybe he will only reveal himself to you when you show that you have evidence who he is. If he is good, perhapse he will not entrust the power of his knowlege on one who hasn\'t proven themselves by doing favors for his friends.) Now the master should have a few quests before he will innitiate you: herbs to gather for the innitiation rite, five books in libraries, taverns, and temples throughout the realm you must study, etc.
Finally, you are innitiated and earn your first lvl in that school. Then, there should be three (or five or twelve, or pick-your-occultly-powerful-number) other trainers who you will be sent to seek out for knowlege of the 3, 5, 7, 12, etc cardinal teachings of the school, each of whom bestows 1 or two Mlvls.
Only when you have finnished these \"accolyte\" levels will you be able train that way like any other skill. A person who has innitiated in one way can follow this process at any time to gain other ways, regardless of how far he has advanced. Other ways can never be more than 70% (rounded up) of the level of your \"home\" school, and you can never be innitiated in your home school\'s opposition school.
So, all that is required is that if you want to learn magic, you do so first. then you are free to be a plate-mailed axe weilding warrior on top of that with little penalty. Some people will do it, and the game will be richer for their presence. But most people who choose to do magic will spend several rl weeks running around to get a moderate Mlvl in one way and innitiate level in one or two others, and will be used to roleplaying a magic guy enough to not go the road of the Fighter/Wizard/Miner/Thief....
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about the PP thing, there Adeventure Quest or something that i tried, it was really bad and i mean bad (worse than runescape) and it used a pp system, i didn\'t like the pp system in that game and this pp system will probably turn into that (you have to use trainers in this game as well i think)and i don\'t want this game to fall down that path, that is a bit of the reason why there shuoldn\'t be pp
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Ethan: yeh I mentioned it on page two:
Short term runs out quick, recharges quick, long-term runs out very slow, doesn\'t recharge unless you like sit down or drink potions or something. That is more life-like, you can only run for some time but you can recover and run some more, but you won\'t be able to walk/run from mississippi to new york without sleeping.
I don\'t like the PP system either it doesn\'t make sense. I\'ll make a post about it.
Heretical: I don\'t know, I\'m not too fond of your posts.. Thet means it would take ages to become even remotely useful, who would want to light a friggin candle?! :P
It should be a little hard to get started in a mage, perhaps almost impossible to start as one from the beginning. After a while as a fighter/farmer/etc you would have the resources and money to begin a mage. Training strength shouldn\'t weaken your magic abilities later in any way. All mages shouldn\'t be 60-pound weaklings neither warriors apes with not a grain of intelligence in their heads.
Look at Gandalf; not only is he immensely powerful in arcane arts but he is a skilled swordsman and still has a great deal of physical strength.
Of course, we should lessen the unlimited number of the mages.. Perhaps you must become very powerful in other things before getting to touch magic.. And magic doesn\'t have to be fighting related either.
For instance, a blacksmith, when becoming extremely skilled, could start learning some magic and forge blades with the one power, blades that never dull and can do all sorts of horrible things on contact (Instantly rot flesh, Set aflame, Cut much deeper than where the blade goes etc). Mabye he could make weapons that amplify your magic power, or are more effective magic conductors when using \"infuse magic\" (read on).
But I\'d say any kind of armour, the more protecting it is, the more it lessens magic ability. You can still cast the spells, but at a severely weakened rate. IC, the True Source would have trouble pouring into you through heavy armour. I\'d say wearing heavy plated armour while casting would lower the damage to as much as a thousanth of the normal damage. Perhaps it would be slower too.
Weapons could actually amplify damage, there could be a special stance called \"Infuse Magic\" or something that makes the sword firey, frosty, very fast, cut the air, or even explode on contact; whatever way, it infuses your weapon with the power.
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I am all for occult teachings in other fields, like your enhanter/blacksmith, or special buffs for fighters from meditation, channelling chi or whatever...
But no, Wizards should be WIZARDS if you want destructive/summoning/transmuting/teleportation type abillities which are not just a mystical extention of normal technologies, then you need to be a wizard first and fore most. Those of you who read my \"Illarion Fallacy\" post will know that I think
\"Perhaps you must become very powerful in other things before getting to touch magic.. \"
Is a terrible Idea. Stop trying to hold back cool features for established players!!!
Far too many people who \"become powerful\" are powergamers who should be the last people to be included in Magic.
As I said, A wizard can learn to fight, but a established fighter cannot learn magic. Magic has to be the central lifes work of any magic using charachter of this sort.
And as for Gandalf, remember that he wasn\'t human, was older than most of creation, and had had quite a long time to practice....
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The point of a new magic system is not to make uber character nor to create a gap between new player and old one.
I am gonna to make a resummary of this thread and if it is short, I will edit my first post to put it there, else I will give a link...
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umm.. i gonna stick to Neryam\'s as it is very similiar to my opinion though really were thinking of all these ideas to make a mage better and we are having arguements though we are all propoing in a way to make this mage stronger (some might be more than others) and forgetting that a mage attacks from a distance and because of his robes we is faster than a warrior, making the mage have a huge advantage over a warrior, so a warrior should be allowed to have a long ranged skill or weapon etc. to even it up a bit because at the moment a mage could easily beat a warrior
An idea has come to mind, in real life if a mage would be running while casting a spell, he could probably cast it though he would definetly not be at full concentration causing maybe his spell to backfire, so he might have to stand still giving the warrior a bit of time (depending on how fast the mage could release the spell)
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Well I hate the fact that 3/4 of the people in mmorpgs are mages, and more so if mages are very powerful. And they should be, with thrilling graphics and power.
What I want to do is make it so not every little starter can become a mage. any other ideas?
\"Becoming Powerful\" doesn\'t mean powerlevel, it means becoming distinguised NOT IN FIGHTING but in other professions. ALthough mabye fighting too I don\'t know.
Oh and having to devote life to magic from the very start is only with most MMORPGs these days. We are not most MMORPGs. I\'m saying you can be a warrior and a mage at the same time and being just a mage won\'t make you any stronger in magic. Like the system is now, that\'s good. Progress in certain areas doesn\'t make it harder to progress in other areas.
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I don\'t know how this could be done, though some mages might have a gifted ability while others don\'t, but i don\'t want this to be chosen at character creation, this will be very hard to do so i might as well not bother, but if you had a big medieval army, the mages would mainly be generals or leaders because they are intelligent and there is very few of them, there would be mainly warrior and alot of archers as well, although mages can be kept to a minimum, they won\'t be stopped by a lot of people for the mage, these mages need to have strong disadvantages apart from low health, low armor because they are really powerful the way we are putting them and also a warrior basically won\'t be able to hit the mage unless the mage has run out of stamina so a mage is almost certain to kill a warrior in a way, rangers won\'t have much trouble with mages though we ust remember most of the Planeshift population will be warriors (like in any MMORPG) so the warriors should have advantages against the mage and disadvantages to the mage and any class
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maybe a random dice roll once your character is created that puts in a database what your character is \"naturally\" talented with... like IRL if someone is a natural cooker or skateboarder of rollerblader of mathematician... but this would be semi difficult to do... well it sounds hard...
i guess it could be a list and a dice roll picks like 5 of them and it ups those and slightly downs the rest and makes the ones it picked easy to learn and the others sort of hard/not as easy...
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Originally posted by Rage McCloud
maybe a random dice roll once your character is created that puts in a database what your character is \"naturally\" talented with... like IRL if someone is a natural cooker or skateboarder of rollerblader of mathematician... but this would be semi difficult to do... well it sounds hard...
i guess it could be a list and a dice roll picks like 5 of them and it ups those and slightly downs the rest and makes the ones it picked easy to learn and the others sort of hard/not as easy...
There already is a way to randomly generate a character. At each step of the way, just.... randomly generate your stats.
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Thats not what i meant... i mean after it is created the server does it and like... it will say if your better at magic or strength or whatever...
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You should do something to become gifted say, maybe your character has a random event that he is slightly too old to become the *perfect* mage or as a child he might have accidently drank a potion that makes him live longer giving him more time to understand and perfect the mage ability, i dunno how it would work though in a class you should have a random (high odds like 1 in 75) chance of being gifted at a certain skill (if you chose to be a street thug you would be gifted in melee, etc) though it would make the game more interesting, though the character that is gifted at that skill will have difficulty learning the opposite of that skill (eg. gifted mage won\'t learn warrior the same rate as others though will learn magic alot faster) so it will make it more fair
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Thats pretty much exactly what i was saying... only yours was in simpler terms i guess...
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Originally posted by Rage McCloud
Thats not what i meant... i mean after it is created the server does it and like... it will say if your better at magic or strength or whatever...
Well... I am not sure to have understand the difference with the background setting already implemented; I have understand that it would be a hidden random but then you will know by a message...
But :
- I am not for a random character (this random roll is important afterall)
- If I want to make a mage, I will just create x character in order to have a mage...
- In fact what you say is already implemented with the \"background setting\", your \"story\" make you clever, stronger... (yes, it is more subtle.) So your story drive you already in a way
darkw00t : PS should not be like any mmorpg, and character should not belong to a \"class\", there is not fighter vs mage, and \"mage\" are slow and dangerous for themselves, a \"mage\" could wear heavy armor and a \"fighter\" use magic but there is some natural balance.
As \"mage\" use a kind of ceremony, all heavy thing will disturb the caster off course..
And there is not I am a \"mage\" so I can\'t be a \"fighter\", what you learn is only related to the time you spend in it, this is a natural balance...
PS : Seems like this thread is going to looping forever lol
PPS : May I ask you to read my signature ? lol
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well... i agree you cant say mage or fighter or theif... there isnt any one class BUT what was being said was plans to cut down on mages as they SHOULD be rare...
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well if mana is removed it would probably have to be replaced with stamina as magic is supposedly exhuasting on the user. channeling that kind oif power along your body is going to have major draw backs and your not going to be running anytime soon after casting hell at something. the only think about this is that there is a chance that this could become another game where mages get far to over powered and so nobody botheres with any other class. but thats the thing with stamina. casting takes alot of energy and such to use thertefore would sap your stamina mightily. each time you cast your spells your stamina would decrease. realy mana is like a substitute for stamina.
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You know what... Draklar is right... not surprising... but anywho... this thread is going in a loop... the mana replaced by stamina was posted like a page back... For those of you who are just joining us... read the other posts... yes BEFORE you post... it will reduce the flaming and keep the thread on topic...
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Ethan, what i mean by the mage wearing armor, thing is that mages can still wear that armor though they don\'t do as much damage as they would in robes, same with warriors, they won\'t have have as much armor in robes as they would if they were wearing there plate armor
Alot of people are repeating what has been said 1 or 2 pages ago, like Rage said, actually read before you post
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Yeah.. and in my post
But I\'d say any kind of armour, the more protecting it is, the more it lessens magic ability. You can still cast the spells, but at a severely weakened rate.
IC, the True Source would have trouble pouring into you through heavy armour. I\'d say wearing heavy plated armour while casting would lower the damage to as much as a thousanth of the normal damage. Perhaps it would be slower too.
And yes, if you boil it down all the way you could say long-term stamina replaces mana.
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For the sake of not repeating... does anyone have any new ideas? lol i cant really think of much more... a list of thigns so far...
No mana
Mana=Stamina
Mana+Stamina+Concentration
Mage hard to learn
Backfiring
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I reckon these idea should be in the game for mana-
1.Mana is used on most circumstances though stamina and concentration should be used on most spells.
2.Stamina could replace mana, Mental stamina would fit under long-term stamina, so long-term stamina could be used as a replacement of mana
3.Concentration works with backfire, if you aren\'t concentratiing enough the spell has a chance of backfiring
4.Magic is a hard skill to learn and it is required to be a high lvl in certain skills to fully understand what it is to become a powerful mage, some of these skills are:-
Magic (nuh der)
Stamina
Concentration
Ways
Bookreading and etc.
5.Mages won\'t as much damage wearing heavy plate armor as they would if they were wearing robes
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How about:
No mana
Long term stamina - for all actions
Mental stamina (short term) - for magic
Physical stamina (short term) - for physical activities
However, if we consider drawing magical energy WHEN we cast the spell, then the power-up bar that is in existence now would need to be replaced by two: one for faster casting and one for stronger casting of spells (as either would be possible).
Let me explain my idea: Both bars are at 100% by default and they go from 0% to 200%. They are now called spell speed and spell power - I think they should be part of the spellbook window instead of stats. Now, you may toggle these two at will, but the percentage total of the two must be equal to or less than 200, or else you can expect something bad to happen. If you are lucky (and haven\'t pushed the bars to high), then perhaps you might only experience spell failure or a minor backlash from time to time, but beware if you get to greedy, though...
IMO, if you give it a thought, that would be as realistic as this system could get.
Now on concentration - there could be a bar like this: pull it above 0 (default level) and experience benefits, whatever you may be doing. The bar keeps going down by itself all the time and burns a lot of mental stamina while above 0.
On the other hand, I would dismiss the idea myself as being able to concentrate on each skill in particular should be a part of your skill level (education in that skill). Except perhaps if it would count as \"trying hard\" or something along these lines.
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Your stupid your just saying different bars of concentration, if you concentrated the spell would get stronger and faster and if you don\'t you can backfire the spell, both bars are contentratioon not just the one
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Sorry I even mentioned concentration. Scrap that part... it isn\'t a good idea anyway and most of all totally unnecessary.
However I still support the idea of speel speed and spell power bars- if mana goes away, that is. It would for instance allow you to cast a spell under maximum power - we can\'t do that now. I don\'t care if nobody would do it, it would be realistic to be able to.
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i didn\'t say it was a bad idea just that the first one is the exact same as a concentration bar
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Why is it totally unnessecary? it sounds actually pretty good... because if there where mages irl they would have to concentrate they couldnt be driving a car talking on a cell phone whistling the national anthem and casting a fire ball all at once... unless of course they are REALLY good multitaskers which would go along with the training of concentration...
I have been flamed for it before... please place a reason of WHY it isnt neccessary or WHY it isnt good idea... dont just say it isnt...
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i have listed my opinions in a above post
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everyone has... then everyone else comes along and repeates it...