PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Efflixi Aduro on September 30, 2005, 08:11:46 am
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Hi my fellow planeshift players. I\'m posting this thread asking for all of you guys who live in the U.S. to please complete this form. But before you do let me give you a little background on what this is and why I\'m posting this.
From about 1900ish-1915ish the Turkish Ottoman empire commited genocide on the Armenian race. They killed over 1,500,000 Armenian men, woman, and children. They also made sure to specificly target our intellectuals and such. Armenia then seeked help from the USSR who did end up protecting them from the Ottomans. But still, In result the Armenian people were almost anialated as well as the home country Armenia got reduced to about 10% of its original size. This is because the Ottomans originally took about 130,000sqkm of the 200,000 Armenia originally had. But since armenia had fallen under the control of the USSR because of they favor the USSR did they now had full control of the armenian land and reduced the size of the country to about 20,000 sqkm (about 10% of what it was and it now stands like this). After world war 1 armenia was supposed to get most of its land back because of the paris peace conference but as ww2 broke out it got pushed aside and was never brought up again. Now today armenia is locked in by Turkey and Azerbajan which both countries are keeping all trade out of Armenia.
On sept 27 the well known group lead a protest in mighagan asking for Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert to allow a vote in the house to recognize the Armenian genocide. If this happens Turkey (and most probably Azerbajan) will have to pay reparations. If this happens Armenia will most probably have access to the black sea again which will make their economy skyrocket. But more importantly they will have much of the land that the Armenians lived in before recorded history.
Now, why do I care about this? Well one if it isnt clear yet, I\'m Armenian. All the members of System of a down are also aremenian and as far as I know (there may be more) 2 more of your fellow psers (robinmagus and karyuu) and also Armenian. So please simply write down your name and whatever it requires and press the button. Reparations for the Aremenian genocide are almost in reach with this. Europe is now also talking about this. My dad told me the other day that most of Europe was ready to force Turkey to admit genocide. (yes they still deny it...-_-)
I could probably write a book on the genocide but I think you guys have read enough to know what\'s going on.
So here\'s the link:
http://capwiz.com/anca/mail/oneclick_compose/?alertid=8041966
Thanks for your time,
-Efflixi Aduro
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Well Im not american, So unfortunatly I cant sign the form and support this effort. I certaintly had heard a bit about this previously. Im a little sceptical because just because America Recognises the genocide, it doesnt mean Turkey Is obliged to pay reparation- The only body who could try and make such a demand would be the UN. Plus, America has very good relations with Turkey, and has been trying to improve its relations with them due to their strategic positioning, by doing them favors like pressuring the E.U to allow Turkey to join. So Im not sure what real chance there is of success... But I wish you luck all the same. Hopefully they will have to pay for the atrocities they committed.
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I\'m Azerbajanian.
Lol. Although I actually live in England.
I don\'t actually want my country to pay anything, seeing as its got a pretty small economy already.
Can you at least explain to me why Armenia is on Azerbajanian land? By Naxchivan? Was that originally Armenian land or ours?
I\'m no historian, and I never bothered learning the truth.
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I filled one out and sent it. One of my college professors is Armenian, from Armenia. She attempted to explain what happened to Armenia and their problems with Azerbajan and how she along with other Armenian professors and Azerbajan professor are trying to help the situation (because I guess the people on each side basically hate eachother from what she said though I have no idea) by bringing together students from each country and letting them sit and talk with eachother. I sure hope this can get done but with American ally Turkey on the one side.... Its going to be a helluva fight to get this done. Ill email a few of my friends to see if they can help im sure Induane will get on it. Best of Luck.
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Well, I don\'t think they hate each other.
There are MANY Armenians living in Azerbaijan. And I\'m sure the same is true vice-versa.
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Originally posted by ajdaha
I\'m Azerbajanian.
Lol. Although I actually live in England.
I don\'t actually want my country to pay anything, seeing as its got a pretty small economy already.
Can you at least explain to me why Armenia is on Azerbajanian land? By Naxchivan? Was that originally Armenian land or ours?
I\'m no historian, and I never bothered learning the truth.
Your country didn\'t even exist before ww1. That was all armenian soil but after the genocide most of the turkish soldiers just stayed there and called the new place azerbejan. You\'re basicly turkish, there\'s really no difference. Azerbejan and turkey have armenia locked down. If you go near the border, you\'ll get shot, which means no trade can reach armenia from land.
Map of historic armenia the orange is what we had before the genocide, as you can see, no azerbejan. (http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/org/armenian/pictures/divisions-map.gif)
Heres another map (http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/org/armenian/pictures/divisions-map.gif)
Pictures of some victims of the genocide (http://unixware.mscc.huji.ac.il/~armenia/ASO/genocide_photos.htm)
Also, there are armenian living in azerbejan because it WAS armenia until the soldiers took over andgave that area a name and stuff. But, there are few if any azerbejanian people living in armenia, why? Because their economy sucks. ajdaha I know that you obviously arn\'t that educated about what actually did go on during the genocide but the country azerbejan stands as a mockery to the armenians who are almost completely surrounded by turkish people.
Oh and thanks a lot Val. Oh ya Armenians basicly hate Azerbejanians and Turks, but wouldn\'t you hate a country that killer 1500000 of your people then denied it?
Edit again: adjaha I dont hate you in any way btw. I do hate your government and I wouldnt mind seeing every single one of them burn in hell, but im sure you wouldnt support the crimes commited
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I think this is stupid, this is like the \"my great grandfather was a slave so give me millions of dollar things\" Sure, the ottomans presecuted them, but there is no ottoman empire anymore, and it wasn\'t anyone elses responsibilty except armenia to protect armenians. I think what happened was horrible, but it is in the past, they are not being perscuted now, and those that did so no longer exist, nor do any that where persecuted.
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Jellyworker be more respectful. 1,500,000 of my own people died and you\'re calling it stupid. Could somone please deleat his post, it seriously offended me. I just lost any respect I had for you...
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he has a valid point, although the wording oculd be better.
the past is the past, can\'t be changed, no matter how much you want it to, learn form mistakes, and plan a better future, its all you can do. this isn\'t doing so, its kinda holding a grudge from generations ago and whining about who owns what, its bickering on a global scale and we dont need it.
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When youve had that land for 4000+ years and a country comes and takes it from you you tend to want it back. You could never understand how I feel because you arn\'t armenian. Most of our churches are now burned, the old capitals recide in turkey with all traces of armenians previously being there removed. The mountain named in like 1/2 of all our storys and has SO much to do with our history is now in Turkey.
As far as I\'m concerned its NOT a valid point and not a SINGLE Armenian will let this be \"part of the past\" until reparations are payed.
Edit: And jellyworker if there is no longer an ootoman empire then shouldnt we get the land the fallen empire took from us back? You don\'t know 1/2 the story man so find out what Turkey and Azerbejan are STILL doing to Armenia then talk. Tukey has been cought bribing collages and universitys to teach their students that the armenians did this to themselvs. Why would they do that if the ottomans were the ones who commited genocide? Simple, its the same people in control, just a different name for the government.
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Regardless of whether or not reparations should be payed for moral reasons, for political reasons, it\'s a bad idea. Anyone else thinking of WWI, the new German government, forced to accept blame for a war fought before its existence and in which it took no part? That led to bad things... i.e. WWII.
Yes, the Genocide was bad and yes it needs to be remembered, regretted, and learned from. But forcing a government--especially one that is barely, if at all related to the government that committed the genocide--to pay for the genocide will not lead to good things.
EDIT: clarified
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Chaos its not \"barly related\" it IS the government that did it. If you read the posts above you\'ll see one of the many way turkey is trying to cover this up. The Jewish people got Isreal as reparations to their genocide and the armenians havn\'t recived anything. All were asking that we get the reparations we where SUPPOSED to get after ww1 but the french and us never came through on getting us the reparations. I cant actually belive you guys are taking turkeys side on this, I feel sick.
Edit: Paying for the genocide and giving some of the land back which is ours will lead to better relations with turkey. Heck once they reparations I wont have anything against the country anymore.
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Originally posted by Makratok
he has a valid point, although the wording oculd be better.
the past is the past, can\'t be changed, no matter how much you want it to, learn form mistakes, and plan a better future, its all you can do. this isn\'t doing so, its kinda holding a grudge from generations ago and whining about who owns what, its bickering on a global scale and we dont need it.
He was wrong. Yes, it happened in the past. But there are current, real consequences that affect people who are living today. If we keep it in strictly economic terms, the familes of victims are poorer today because of the actions of the Turkish government. We can\'t deny that. Therefore, the argument that \"the past is the past... just forget about it\" is bunk.
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I agree that something needs to be done (should have been done a long tima ago but the USSR probably didn\'t want to take on the Ottomans in full). However I don\'t know enough about the situation to know if reerations are currently warrented all I can say is that the Armenians Do need help. Perhaps a donated airfleet and an enforced right of way through Turkish air space would be the better solution; again I don\'t know enough about the situation to know if that is the truth though.
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Oh and thanks a lot Val. Oh ya Armenians basicly hate Azerbejanians and Turks, but wouldn\'t you hate a country that killer 1500000 of your people then denied it?
Efflixi reread my post. You misunderstood everything I said. I was talking about what my Armenian professor along with Azerbijian professors were trying to do about a bad situation. Because if I am not mistaken not that long ago the two countries went to war against one another? I understand this situation effects you more than me.. but read with your eyes not with your heart.. Im on your side.
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Efflixi: What I am saying is that history is cyclic, to a point, and it is not humanities duty to right the wrongs of history, but to learn from them, prepare, and see to it that they don\'t happen again. Edit: as previously stated.
That\'s not to say I don\'t sympathise with the armenians, but if you gave the armenians their land back, you\'d have to give turkey it\'s land from russia, greece has claims over in that area too, india wants part of china, and vice versa, and all sorts of places are in the same situation of having an old claim to land that they no longer posess. But for the US to pressure one country to give it back would start a chain reaction, we\'d have india clamoring at us to pressure china, etc... Plus I think that our government doesn\'t need to be in other governments business except when it comes to nukes or terrorism.
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... and finally the USA would have to return their land back to the Indians .... ;-)
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that too :D I like my land, I\'ll keep it :P
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Are any of you aware that the entire country of Jordan used to be part of Israel? How about all the Palestinians in Israel? That land has changed hands so many times that you can\'t really say it belong to this group or that group. Currently, there\'s a semblance of balance in the region so it stays the way it is. Now imagine if Jordan were forced to give a large chunk of its land to Israel? There\'d be wars over it.
While the Armenians do deserve some repayment, there\'s no easy way to do it without causing other conflicts.
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> Are any of you aware that the entire country
> of Jordan used to be part of Israel?
When ? I don\'t really think so.
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Europe and north africa used to be the Roman Empire... Lets give it all back. :P
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but wait, it belonged to carthage to at one point, until the romans conquured them, so who do we give it to? :P
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Seriously, nations often took land of other nations or commited genocides in the history but this Armenian tragedy is still relatively \"fresh\" (90 years ago) and huge. Frankly I don\'t think that they can do much more about it than getting some kind of apologize ... nobody will give up stolen land unless the issue is really fresh and they have a reason like Israel.
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90 years is fresh? I think we should take action if it was 10 years to present, but 90 years?
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For God damn millionth time, THE ARMENIANS WHERE SUPPOSED TO GET THIER LAND BACK IRGHT AFTER THE WAR BUT WW2 INTERFERED AND THEY COULDN\'T. Also, please don\'t joke around in this thread it\'s a serious topic to me and I\'d appreciate some respect.
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Oh and thanks a lot Val. Oh ya Armenians basicly hate Azerbejanians and Turks, but wouldn\'t you hate a country that killer 1500000 of your people then denied it?
Efflixi reread my post. You misunderstood everything I said. I was talking about what my Armenian professor along with Azerbijian professors were trying to do about a bad situation. Because if I am not mistaken not that long ago the two countries went to war against one another? I understand this situation effects you more than me.. but read with your eyes not with your heart.. Im on your side.
Val there never was a war. There is one instance in which Azerbejan came and tried taking a peice of land that the armenians owned and the armenian people who lived on that land fought back until th UN told Azerbejan to stop invading Armenia.
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tell me efflixi: how did the ottoman persecution affect you? I am sorry but I just can\'t see your point of view on this, I think you need to reread your thread and reconsider your stance on this issue, and not be bull headed.
/me makes a new warcry: Remember the racoon thread!
Edit: Misspellings.
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Obviously this topic means something to him Jerry. So why be a damn idiot about it? he can have whatever feelings he wants and doesnt have to explain them to you. And maybe in some ways it doesnt affect him as much.. but what about his parents/ entire family, his heritage.. and I understand I dont have to argue his side. But instead him coming back and completely going off on you. So just stop being a damn idiot as usuall and let him keep the thread clean and open.. there doesnt need to be a debate here he is just looking for a few people who cna help in a simple way as just email your congressmen.
Europe and north africa used to be the Roman Empire... Lets give it all back.
Yes if the Roman Empire was promised to get it back and it existed.. then sure.
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oh great, you had to join the thread...
btw, it\'s jelly, or jellywerker, not jerry
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So why be a damn idiot about it?
Exactly Jerry.
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Originally posted by JellyWerker
tell me efflixi: how did the ottoman persecution affect you? I am sorry but I just can\'t see your point of view on this, I think you need to reread your thread and reconsider your stance on this issue, and not be bull headed.
/me makes a new warcry: Remember the racoon thread!
Edit: Misspellings.
No you know what guys, jellywOrker is right. They killed 1,500,000. My great grandparants had to flee to Iran. Their homes are now part of Turkey, I cant even see where my family grew up. But its the past. I should \"let go\" of the land my family and race has lived on since before recorded history. Heck, go you basterds at turkey kill all of us and take every last bit of land we have, who cares soon enough it will be \"a problem of the past\". For God\'s sake my Turkish friend even thinks of taking the turkish the armenians should be payed reparations. Jellyfish I\'m going to go kill 1,500,000 of your people and lets let it go for 50 years, because then it won\'t matter anymore. What are you a turkish politition or somthing. Get a life and get a more tolerant view on the subject intead of taking the turkish side for whatever stupid reasons you have. My people were killed and you come and give this bull. Ive met people as intolerant and disrespectful as you before, I\'ve beaten the crap out of two of them for making fun of the armenian genocide. Just because this didnt happen to you to you have such a stupid view on this. Just stop posting on this thread I posted this expecting some tolerant and respectful replies on the bull you\'re posting. Could somone lock this thread until the community becomes more respectful and tolerant, thankyou.
[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]
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hmm, perhaps my opinion would have been different at first if you had originally posted this. After this additional data, I can see why you are upset over this, and what exactly it means to you, my only opposition now it the political engine you would have to put in place to run this through without starting a war or something with turkey would be a monstrous and monumental task. countries don\'t just go \"here, take this land\"...
I never made fun of the genoicide, only of how it seems you had expected turkey to just give the land right up.
also, if you killed 1.5 mil americans, it would be a crime of now, and things probably wouldn\'t go so well with you...
[offtopic]I\'d like to see you beat me up, we should arrange a match, not in relation to this though :D everyone always says they can beat me up, i get tired of it :D[/offtopic]
and... ...it\'s jelly or jellywerker...
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cant you guys just play nice?
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I don\'t play nice when I\'m insulted about the genocide of my people.
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theres a certain extent as to whats tolerated on these forums, any of the mods will tell you that, this isn\'t armenian.com it\'s planeshift, i know hydlaa plaza is off topic, but its only to that certain point, after that it gets out of hand, of which your doing now. so please, take a breather and calm down for your own sake
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As always, another \'political\' thread degrades into petty namecalling, swearing and insults. Shame on the first person here to call someone else a \"damn idiot\", but shame even more to those who responded to it like children. (So basically, Valbrandr and Efflixi.)