PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Moogie on October 13, 2005, 06:39:04 am
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Vote Yay or Nay. Pip requests for you to PM her (not me, I\'m just creating the poll for her ;) ) if you have any questions or need to discuss something regarding the subject. Poll will remain open for 3 weeks after initial post. Have fun~
Rules For Duelling
1. No duelling in the plaza or tavern at all, or anywhere that is well populated. (Unless by a prearranged audience)
2. A verbal challenge is made giving a) reason for challenge b) weapons preferred (including fists) c) whether magic should/shouldn\'t be used d) place and time
3.The challengee may countermand b), c) and/or d) above. The challenge is then verbally accepted/declined.
4. When the conditions discussed in 2. and 3. have been met, the duel should begin - both the Challenger and the Challengee should place themselves at a convenient length facing each other.
5. For training purposes go to an empty room in the arena or away from areas which are busy, where parties can challenge each other as much as they wish. (This may suit those who like to fight each other for fun)
6. In the case of a guild war terms should be drawn up and agreed between the leaders of the warring guilds. Bearing in mind that rule 1. should always apply.
7. If you use the PvP system for your RP fights, then any form of exploitation is not allowed. Commodities like shortcuts may be used for convenience, but not for speed.
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This is spam... there\'s already a thread on it.
Some people will abide by it. Others will not, for RP reasons. Some of it is superfluous to the official rules as enforced by GMs.
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Ahem, little colorful birdie... \"him\"? Pip (in-game: Pipra) is Janner\'s wife - so, tell \"her\", please. ;)
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Apart from that, I am happy to realise that those rule proposals have been spread to other guilds\' discussion boards already.
:emerald: :tup: :emerald:
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heh, first \'nay\' vote... do i get a prize?
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No, Drey - for showing a lack of respect against the public order, you will be \"pebbled\" on the plaza (see \'Life of Brian\'). ;)
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I voted yes, but I personally would like to know the border at point 7:
Where do the commodities end and the speed begin?
So, are shortcuts for drinking potions allowed?
casting spells?
I know there is another thread discussing this issue, but I just want to get some information o this instead of distracting te main discussion again ...
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i have never seen any monty python films (before you ask someone told me it was a film of his).
and im not showing a lack of respect just believeing that you are lacking in authority.
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i have voted yes :))
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Yeah thumbs up here, rules have also been placed on TCF\'s forums and soon will be made official guild rules then placed on our site.
.::noX:.
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Originally posted by Rolf Blacksmith
So, are shortcuts for drinking potions allowed?
casting spells?
I know there is another thread discussing this issue, but I just want to get some information o this instead of distracting te main discussion again ...
that is for you and your opponent to decide, the rules have been edited slightly in the other thread, the ones here had to be left as is.
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The Rangers of Yliakum shall follow these rules... For the most part... Tell me if anyone doesn\'t and I will handle it, and if I break them, tell Kallis...
Edit: And, eh, let\'s keep to a rule of ex post facto, k?
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yay vote here.
good luck, well done, and good luck again...
Easton Ghent
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I say yes online few hours 10+ challenges for no reason found off button
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I really think that duels should be held in public...Now, I don\'t duel around people who are RPing, but if its one of those times where everyone is OOC, I feal free to do whatever I want...Therefore, adapting to your surroundings (RP/OOC) there should be a both option....
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No one is supposed to be OOC ;) Not publicly, and not without clearly marking OOC text as such. And you\'re certainly not meant to use game functions for OOC purposes, as this is an RPG.
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Like I said before, I only do what surrounding people are...Roleplay, or OOC
Also: Game Masters never RP, always OOC...So I find it hard to roleplay in the plaza period :|
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Game masters are not supposed to RP, if they want to do that they log out and play with their IC\'s
they do however try to minimise the disturbances while they work for your convenience in their spare time.
slapping mitaki aside.
cool beans! :tup: from me
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The Defenders also agree in principle to these rules. A \"Code Duello\" will soon be placed upon the Defender\'s forum and eventually the website similar to what was written here. All Defenders will abide by it whenever possible.
However variations in the rule will undoubtedly occur which will result in different interpretations of the rules. Therefore I suggest that in a formal duel, the rules are gone over immidiately before the duel begins so that both parties fully understand them and agree.
It should be recognized that compliance is voluntary and not all citizens or all guilds will share the quest for civilized combat in matters of honor. Thus it may not always be possible to fully comply with the established rule.
SensoTaka Kishu : Defenders Banneret
\"I would rather die with honor than live with shame...\"
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Nay.
I have previously stated my reasons in the other thread and thus You can read them there.
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I think there should be different variations. It would allow to see better what are opinions of others. With yay and nay options only, one won\'t agree with only part of one point and..
voted nay.
Besides i don\'t think it is going to work if there is no real way to enforce it. But maybe good start.
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we are in agreement to Pip\'s rules...
Lolitra \'I so hate it when people just challenge me for a fight without reason... \'
Celorrim \'Just pure thuggery..\'
Lolitra \'they are so rude and really spoil my day\'
Celorrim, whilst playing with her tail... \'it\'s probably because they have no grasp of lingual skill, or common curtisy...\'
Lolitra \'and its not pretty...\'
both nod and say... \'here here to the code of confrontations... \'
Celorrim \'so much more civil...\'
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Originally posted by Sensotaka
It should be recognized that compliance is voluntary and not all citizens or all guilds will share the quest for civilized combat in matters of honor. Thus it may not always be possible to fully comply with the established rule.
Different people have different definitions of what is civil and what is honourable. What\'s the point of voting on it? Are we talking about building it into the mechanics of the game? That\'s silly, and it violates RP. Are we talking about making it a law of Hydlaa? Now ~that\'s~ more interesting, but is it within RP? How will people find out about the law? Will we have local laws for all cities and townships?
And it further raises this point:
Originally posted by Nikodemus
Besides i don\'t think it is going to work if there is no real way to enforce it. But maybe good start.
Who will enforce it? GMs? That would interfere with RP, wouldn\'t it? Will other players enforce it? Without open PVP, how would they do it?
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If I didn\'t exist, I couldn\'t put in this post. If I am \"ignoring\" certain persons it is for good reason.
And I have no control over the voting results it is all done by the computer, perhaps a moderator will explain how it works.
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Originally posted by Pip
If I didn\'t exist, I couldn\'t put in this post. If I am \"ignoring\" certain persons it is for good reason.
And I have no control over the voting results it is all done by the computer, perhaps a moderator will explain how it works.
lol, I thought the poll was locked and we were sending you our votes. A noob moment / brain fart. I\'ve just already voted, no worries.
But yeah, I tried sending you a PM and it wouldn\'t go through.
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Voted no. My character would never follow such rules.
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I voted no.
Not to the thought that there was a right and wrong way to duel, but to making more rules.
This is a matter of what is considered to be polite. But it cannot be allowed to become more than that. The endless rush in the forums, to make everything subject to rigid rules, stifles creativity.
1. There is RP that will require being impolite.
2. \"Hide and go Kill\" is too much fun, cannot be stopped, and the small disruption that a chase scene will bring, is attractive to Noobs, it shows them there is action to be had.
3. Similarly, a duel, loudly announced, and fought out of earshot but not out of view of the usual plaza gathering, perhaps on the other side of the fountain from Harnquist, would be a public spectacle, attractive to the newcomer and beneficial to PS.
I vote that this etiquette, \"A Duelling Code of Honor\" be published, as a book in the Library, to be specifically labeled as a guideline for those who are noble, and seek to follow the traditions of polite and honorable duelling.
It could then be taught to Noobs, by simply referring them to the Library. (Which needs a master catalog of titles, by the way.)
But do not ever call it a rule. Rules will be broken by all too many who have made breaking anything that is called a rule their sole mission.
You will get vastly more result than any rule will give you, if you simply say that this way of duelling is considered a noble and polite tradition and are disdainful of those who are ill-mannered.
Courtesy cannot be imposed upon the unwilling. You must lead by conspicuous example, and show how attractive it is to be elegant, instead.
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
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What you say Lady Verrliit is of course true. But I think that the guilds that voted \"yes\" mean to make guild rules controling such events, not that they agree that such rules be forced on everyone. That would be a bad idea for exactly the reasons you articulate.
The idea\'s you speak of concerning a library book dealing with the Code Duello (duelling code) is in my opinion an excellent idea (yes dev\'s, if you are listening I am willing to write it for you). I hope it and other books to populate the library come about soon.
SensoTaka Kishu : Defenders Banneret
\" I would rather die with honor than live with shame...\"
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So now everyone is suposed to vote?
Anyway, I will certainly vote \"Yay\". These are, to me, first and foremost OOC, simply because the problem they are supposed to solve is completely OOC: the mindless, un-RP duelling everywhere that is cluttering up the chat window and looking and sounding just plain stupid. Thereby it removes all sense of realism and makes PS look like a duelling game.
I can\'t help but wonder why some think that reducing that is detrimental to RP. To be more specific, I fail to see how a challenge window, popping up randomly without any further notice, without you even knowing the sender except for the name that is stated in the chat window, could possibly be classified as RP.
As I have stated before, this is not RP, it is merely a sad try to phrase pure OOC PvP happiness as RP. RP is different, it requires a level of mutual, completely OOC, trust that is not attainable through any pop-up window.
Therefore, these points exist to govern the OOC conduct, with having the side-effect of increasing likelyhood to have actual RP, by simply requiring people to, in whatever form, talk.
There is no random duelling IC.
To be clear: characters may very well disregard these points. However, players won\'t. Or shouldn\'t, if they strive to be(come) good RPers. Therefore, even if a character disobeys the IC interpretation, the player of that character won\'t ignore the OOC convention. That\'s a major difference.
Like talking undesignated OOC vs. talking about something completely different yet IC in an IC discussion. Second is RP, first is not. But I disgress.
Whether or not they will or should become IC law is of no importance to my decision (though I think they should eventually become, in part, IC law, as it is really natural). They solve an OOC problem and they are OOC. And I vote for them, completely OOC. Yay.
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There is no random duelling IC.
What if your character likes randommly attacking people? Its conceivable, especially if you were Chaotic Evil. You\'re just making a generalisation because of the behavior of some people.
Or shouldn\'t, if they strive to be(come) good RPers.
Thats your opinion, that it is required that you must follow these rules to be in character.
Therefore, even if a character disobeys the IC interpretation, the player of that character won\'t ignore the OOC convention.
How are you to simultaneously obey these rules OOC but disobey them IC? Using the example of the theif or brigand again, are you to walk up to someone and OOC ask them what their skill level is, whether you want magic in a duel, etc, stand around for them to reply and then start a fight? To me, that breaks the realism more, and defeats the entire purpose.
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
There is no random duelling IC.
What if your character likes randommly attacking people? Its conceivable, especially if you were Chaotic Evil. You\'re just making a generalisation because of the behavior of some people.
Absolutely not, no. Please read on.
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Or shouldn\'t, if they strive to be(come) good RPers.
Thats your opinion, that it is required that you must follow these rules to be in character.
Also not, the distinct diffrence is IC and OOC, as I\'ll try to expres in the end.
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Therefore, even if a character disobeys the IC interpretation, the player of that character won\'t ignore the OOC convention.
How are you to simultaneously obey these rules OOC but disobey them IC? Using the example of the theif or brigand again, are you to walk up to someone and OOC ask them what their skill level is, whether you want magic in a duel, etc, stand around for them to reply and then start a fight? To me, that breaks the realism more, and defeats the entire purpose.
Yes, absolutely. When I receive a random duelling request, I am always going to ignore it. I know that a true RPer will never just send a duelling request. Instead, they will state that they have an IC reason to attack you. In almost all cases, you will know the reason or that there is one.
You won\'t necessarily need to be so really specific about things in that case, but the general idea remains, for the simple reason that while your char might be very high in level compared to mine (or vice-versa), this difference might be due to a whole lot of factors that are entirely OOC. It is this problem of the actual levels being 100% RL related and 0% RP related that makes the duelling system almost inherently unusable for IC fights. These are better RP\'d instead of fought, which has the added benefit of allowing a lot more interesting battles, though that also requires a high level of discipline on both sides.
If, however, you use the duelling system for RP, then you must make sure that the ensuing fight will actually have some realistic resemblance of the RP of both players.
The effort to make sure that your \"target\" knows that you are IC, and a trustworthy RPer (OOC, not IC, mind you!) will usually be what counts in whether or not a duel will be accepted or not.
Even when you\'re chaotic evil and mad, you will not simply send a challenge to someone OOC-ly. Instead, you will RP that, if your wish to fight is actually IC and not OOC jerkiness. Also, you would make sure t5hat you only attack people of whom you are sure they also are IC, _and_ you would also make sure that the situation they RP actually gives an opportunity for you to attack. In almost no way would you manage to randomly attack someone who just moments ago RP\'d \"/me looks around warily\".
The scene would then be something like this:
Madman: *giggles silently, looking at Victim*
Victim:
Madman: *draws the dagger and moves closer, stifling the giggles*
Victim: *is still not suspicious*
Madman: *suddenly jumps forward to stab Victim*
Victim: *is caught by surprise and barely manages to evade the first blow and assumes a defensive position*
Only now is the duelling request to be sent!
Also, since the plaza is IC-ly properly guarded, you would then have to RP beign arrested if you get caught, which you will also have to RP. In no way can you just duel and walk off. These are the problems that are most easily \"overlooked\" by those that \"RP chaotic / evil chars\". I am very much inclined that it is ignoring on purpose, but I might be wrong. If I were wrong, though, then all the trouble Monketh was having with trying to RP a guard division would never have arisen, so it is fair to assume that almost all of those \"RP\"ers are merely out to very OOC-ly do some PvP.
Edit: And even then, out of courtesy, you would likely relocate the actual fight to somewhere else. IC you wouldn\'t move locations, but OOC-ly you would, as convention to keep the plaza clean./Edit
I sincerely hope that this explains things. :)
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Seytra, the battle you described was colourful and it would work. HOWEVER, I strongly believe that such things as arrests, protection, revenge, and murder should be built into the very mechanics of Planeshift itself. But for now, the system you described is the best we can do.
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:P I\'ll have my guild follow the rules when appropriate... Heh, that is coming from the guy who uses a method of guerilla warfare in his guild wars, so it should be expected :P.
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Originally posted by Seytra
Also, since the plaza is IC-ly properly guarded, you would then have to RP beign arrested if you get caught, which you will also have to RP. In no way can you just duel and walk off. These are the problems that are most easily \"overlooked\" by those that \"RP chaotic / evil chars\". I am very much inclined that it is ignoring on purpose, but I might be wrong. If I were wrong, though, then all the trouble Monketh was having with trying to RP a guard division would never have arisen, so it is fair to assume that almost all of those \"RP\"ers are merely out to very OOC-ly do some PvP.
Edit: And even then, out of courtesy, you would likely relocate the actual fight to somewhere else. IC you wouldn\'t move locations, but OOC-ly you would, as convention to keep the plaza clean./Edit
I\'ve been through this discussion already, so I don\'t really want to get into it again. But your last paragraph here is something I would like to comment on.
Why doesn\'t everyone respond in this manner anyway? Why must we wait for RP Laws and RP Law Enforcement, etc, before we rush the assaulting character? I said it before: RP your opposition to the random duels, it is really rather simple. To me, if you are a true and good RPer then you should be able to do so.
As far as whether you would move locations OOCly but not ICly, I believe your response in another post was that you should RP with your character. Therefore, you would not OOCly move to a different location but attempt to ICly RP the Plaza. If you are IC murdering, assaulting, duelling, challenging or whatever somone in the Plaza, that is where it should be done -- particularly if you are a good and true RPer.
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Originally posted by Askr
Why doesn\'t everyone respond in this manner anyway? Why must we wait for RP Laws and RP Law Enforcement, etc, before we rush the assaulting character? I said it before: RP your opposition to the random duels, it is really rather simple. To me, if you are a true and good RPer then you should be able to do so.
The main problem is, AFAICS, that a lot of this duelling is done by OOC people. They will simply ignore you when you try to stop them. I tried several times and got only laughed at. Likewise, I have asked people why they wanted to kill me (provided they didn\'t run off immediately after me declining the challenge): they just responded along the lines \"for fun\" and ran off to challenge the next player, i.e., completely OOC. IOW, it doesn\'t work.
Also, rushing the offender would be IC only for a few. Granted, in Yliakum, people are much more likely to risk death or injury than IRL so social courage would, in theory, increase. However, this would still require a lot of RPers, not just a few, to rush the offender, and it would also require the offender to be an RP themselves, which is, as I stated, unlikely, since we wouldn\'t have any such problems in that case anyway.
Originally posted by Askr
As far as whether you would move locations OOCly but not ICly, I believe your response in another post was that you should RP with your character. Therefore, you would not OOCly move to a different location but attempt to ICly RP the Plaza. If you are IC murdering, assaulting, duelling, challenging or whatever somone in the Plaza, that is where it should be done -- particularly if you are a good and true RPer.
Yes, I have said this, and I still stand by that. However, the major problem in this particular case is that OOC problems are pressing. An IC duel, conducted through the PvP system, is undistinguishable from an OOC duel. Therefore, it would seem like duelling is OK just like it seems to be now.
So it is really a deficiency of the game mechanics that should be worked around by moving away, like with certain races unable to enter the third room in the tavern.
However, I would be perfectly happy to drop that requirement should it become evident that the community is strong enough to restrict it to IC duels only and thereby explain it to all newbies who might mistake it for duelling for OOC fun. But I fear that this isn\'t possible, for the RP community is not that big compared to the amount of non RPers or newbies, and duels are over so fast that the offenders are likely long gone before you arrive at the scene.
Also, since this is only a minor issue for RP, and affects only a very few RPers (since duelling realistically and IC usually isn\'t common), the drawbacks aren\'t as severe as in the cases I commented on on the other thread. The duel would still be observable, just not jump into your face. I think that RP\'d duels (i.e., those not using the PvP system) can perfectly well continue to take place in the plaza. It\'s really just to get rid of the OOC-ness and OOC feel. :)
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Originally posted by Seytra
The main problem is, AFAICS, that a lot of this duelling is done by OOC people. They will simply ignore you when you try to stop them. I tried several times and got only laughed at. IOW, it doesn\'t work.
Also, rushing the offender would be IC only for a few. Granted, in Yliakum, people are much more likely to risk death or injury than IRL so social courage would, in theory, increase. However, this would still require a lot of RPers, not just a few, to rush the offender, and it would also require the offender to be an RP themselves, which is, as I stated, unlikely, since we wouldn\'t have any such problems in that case anyway.
I have mentioned this in another thread, but anytime I confront non-RPers with RP they either begin RPing or they tire of acting OOC when I am responding in an IC manner.
Yes rushing the offender would be IC for only a few, which is the point of the RP, is it not? We do not expect the RPers to act OOC just to rush some random duellists. That would invalidate the whole IC vs. OOC issue. Therefore the RP would be given that much more depth, because you would have those that would attempt to stop the duellists and those that IC would attempt to protect the unaware OOC characters and then those that would attempt to further the mayhem. :o) All in good RP afterall.
Yes, I have said this, and I still stand by that. However, the major problem in this particular case is that OOC problems are pressing. An IC duel, conducted through the PvP system, is undistinguishable from an OOC duel. Therefore, it would seem like duelling is OK just like it seems to be now.
So it is really a deficiency of the game mechanics that should be worked around by moving away, like with certain races unable to enter the third room in the tavern.
I just RP the deficiencies in the game myself. I mean after all who is to say that the gods did not intend for certain races to not be able to enter a certain room or building or leave a certain area (like when I can\'t make the transition to Akkaio ;) ). Perhaps that is just a degree to which you want to RP?
However, I would be perfectly happy to drop that requirement should it become evident that the community is strong enough to restrict it to IC duels only and thereby explain it to all newbies who might mistake it for duelling for OOC fun. But I fear that this isn\'t possible, for the RP community is not that big compared to the amount of non RPers or newbies, and duels are over so fast that the offenders are likely long gone before you arrive at the scene.
Also, since this is only a minor issue for RP, and affects only a very few RPers (since duelling realistically and IC usually isn\'t common), the drawbacks aren\'t as severe as in the cases I commented on on the other thread. The duel would still be observable, just not jump into your face. I think that RP\'d duels (i.e., those not using the PvP system) can perfectly well continue to take place in the plaza. It\'s really just to get rid of the OOC-ness and OOC feel. :)
I agree with you that the RP community is nearly nonexistent. Again, my wife and I nearly stopped playing PS early on because of the lack of serious RPers. I agree that RPed duels are by far the better \'format(?)\'.. But with so few RPers, RP duels vs PvP duels are going to be nonexistent just because of numbers.
As far as the offenders being long gone, well that is part of the reality of the situation. Just because you hear shots fired or a scream for help does not mean you are going to be able to assist, unless of course you are superman or something :). And again that is all part of the RP. Dissapointment, confrontation, and the inexplicable are all parts of life and should be part of your RP as well -- unless of course your characters bear no resemblence to actual living-breathing individuals. Which is what I thought the whole point of RP was.
I believe the entire issue is not so much with duelling, but with everyone\'s view of the environment. Those that are so avidly supporting and defending these rules/ideas are very much about predefined storylines with little to no interference from outsiders. Everything needs to be scripted and predetermined, and though it may be visible to outsiders, it should not interfere with them and they should not interfere with it except in a scripted and determined manner. Reality, life, and RP are not like that.
Perhaps my background in RP differs so much from others in this game that I can RP just about any situation believably and no one else even wants to, much less be able to.
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Originally posted by Askr
I just RP the deficiencies in the game myself. I mean after all who is to say that the gods did not intend for certain races to not be able to enter a certain room or building or leave a certain area (like when I can\'t make the transition to Akkaio ;) ). Perhaps that is just a degree to which you want to RP?
Absolutely, yes. I never RP anything that is obviously not meant to be ingame. Bugs. Crashes. Lack of content. OOC people. Typos. Movement flaws. Wipes. Invisible walls. End of the world. Graphical glitches.
All these things are completely obviously never ment to be ingame, so they are not to be RPd. When you \"RP\" them, then in reality you are completely OOC, and you might just as well talk undesignatedly OOC about the computer games you play besides PS.
The game world is completely finished, all parts exist, no glitches, no bugs are there. IOW, the PS world is exactly the way it is envisioned by the devs. From an IC (and thus RP) perspective.
RPing those deficiencies isn\'t possible. What is possible is to phrase things as if they were RP, but that is just a mockery, just like comedy movies. It also compleely destroys realism, and also takes away all credibility from your RP, invalidating it.
What you describe as \"responding ICly to OOC players\" is the same. It is what some call \"Uber RP\", and is just as bad as OOC-ness. I am surprised that you have seen it make the other RP. There is a very fine line on that, obviously. When they ask a question that could realistically be IC, then the answer may very well be IC. However, what can\'t really be IC can\'t be responded to IC. And most people don\'t notice the difference, even if you add a lot of /me-ing, like I do. It takes an explicit OOC explanation, and most won\'t even honour the request to talk in brackets.
As for the scriptedness: where did you get that from? When did I say that RP should not be interruptible? All I said is that RP must not be interrupted by non RP of whatever form. And non RP is what almost all duelling is. If RP crosses RP of others, then bothe will merge, at least for a while. However, this mandates that both parties are actually RPing, and this is by far not common in case of duels. My RP is never scripted, and all RP that happens to mix will affect it. However, I do (at least IC-ly) ignore everything that isn\'t either good RP, not obviously OOC or coming from someone of whom I know or can be reasonbably sure that they want to learn to RP. Only that way believable, high quality RP can be done AFAICS.
Edit: However, this is straying severely off topic, so we shouldn\'t keep discussing this here.
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Originally posted by Seytra
The game world is completely finished, all parts exist, no glitches, no bugs are there. IOW, the PS world is exactly the way it is envisioned by the devs. From an IC (and thus RP) perspective.
RPing those deficiencies isn\'t possible. What is possible is to phrase things as if they were RP, but that is just a mockery, just like comedy movies. It also compleely destroys realism, and also takes away all credibility from your RP, invalidating it.
Ah, the joys of double-think.
I disagree with you, but if you operate that way and I operate another way then we have to find a common ground. There isn\'t a single right way of RPing -- we just have to have fun without preventing others from doing the same.
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i personaly whould like to vote on each rule individualy untill then i wont vote
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Originally posted by Tolgar
i personaly whould like to vote on each rule individualy untill then i wont vote
Then you are at risk of having rules imposed on you without your say in the matter. It is better that you cast your vote and watch for the revision. Look above the Yay vote is winning. Not that it means much unless it becomes official PS rules for GM to enforce.
O, I voted Nay. I agree with Lady Verrliit?s view on the matter.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
I disagree with you, but if you operate that way and I operate another way then we have to find a common ground. There isn\'t a single right way of RPing -- we just have to have fun without preventing others from doing the same.
There is: the way things are supposed to be. It\'s not really hard to deduce how things are meant to be for most parts. There is no common ground to be found, because your way to \"RP\" is diametrally opposed to mine. Therefore, if I were to RP with you at all, I would implicitely accept your \"RP\" as IC reality, which it isn\'t to me, which would in turn invalidate my RP. I don\'t \"RP\" a shallow comedy. Neither do I \"RP\" a mockery of the PS world. Both are completely pointless and a waste of time. So I won\'t be able to interact with you ICly, just as with any other OOC person, in order to protect my RP from degrading.
@ Tolgar: you could, however, post your opinion and reasoning on each point that you don\'t agree with, so that they can be seen and taken into account by everyone.
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I see this as another reason for yay vote.
Talad
Administrator
* Re-wrote invite spam-blocker:
- Now only triggered on declines, so as to not block legitimate invites.
- Penalties now increase with each decline:
1) 1 min lockout
2) 5 min + warning
3) 10 min + 10 advisor point fine + 10 duel point fine, if duel spam + death
4) 30 point fine(s) + death + kick from server
- Penalties expire with gameplay time, and can be lowered by getting an accept from a player with no penalties and a enough advisor points.
- Penalty level is saved to the player\'s account entry in the database, so repeat offenders can\'t escape it. (relog resets to 3rd level)
:]
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Janner, the updates in the new release do not influence anything but duel-spam. It does not address moving fights out of the plaza or any other RP location, nor does it address players needing to talk to each other before challenging. The updates only help combat repetitive abuse.
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(21:26:30) Tolgar says: are we allowed to duel in the plaza as long as its not in a populated area?
(21:27:05) Alden says: if nobody is around at all then i guess nobody is around to punnish you ;)
a great point from a great gm..Alden
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Did not say it did just think that it is a good reason to vote yay. and my reason being i think it will stop the idiots running round trying to fight anyone in sight.
And if they RP a duel it is not a problem. :))
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Originally posted by Seytra
Originally posted by zanzibar
I disagree with you, but if you operate that way and I operate another way then we have to find a common ground. There isn\'t a single right way of RPing -- we just have to have fun without preventing others from doing the same.
There is: the way things are supposed to be. It\'s not really hard to deduce how things are meant to be for most parts. There is no common ground to be found, because your way to \"RP\" is diametrally opposed to mine. Therefore, if I were to RP with you at all, I would implicitely accept your \"RP\" as IC reality, which it isn\'t to me, which would in turn invalidate my RP. I don\'t \"RP\" a shallow comedy. Neither do I \"RP\" a mockery of the PS world. Both are completely pointless and a waste of time. So I won\'t be able to interact with you ICly, just as with any other OOC person, in order to protect my RP from degrading.
@ Tolgar: you could, however, post your opinion and reasoning on each point that you don\'t agree with, so that they can be seen and taken into account by everyone.
You\'re still being way too narrow minded on this. Seytra, I don\'t RP \"Evil\". I don\'t RP \"Annoying\". I don\'t RP \"Comical\", or \"Pathetic\", or \"Friend\", or \"Wise\". I RP within a ~system~ of different personalities and people all working together to create something new and greater than the individual parts. You and me doing things differently in the same place and time is what creates the complexity which makes RP interesting and good. It\'s the same with everyone. We all RP with different values and beliefs surrounding friendship, loyalty, violence, knowledge, riches, life and death. Though you might prefer your combintation above all others, the others are no less valid by default. Instead, you need to learn how to get along with others in a more complex system of RP where being ok, being healthy, even being happy isn\'t the normal state at all times. In any RPG and in any story, people get frustrated. They get sick and die. They hurt one another, and they find revenge. But this is what makes the ~good~ parts of RP worthwhile and interesting and things to be treasured. I wish you could see things that way.
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Originally posted by r.guppy
Did not say it did just think that it is a good reason to vote yay. and my reason being i think it will stop the idiots running round trying to fight anyone in sight.
And if they RP a duel it is not a problem. :))
But what does that have to do with this Poll? The update is for what Karyuu said ? The updates only help combat repetitive abuse?. Not even a rule but a feature to control a form of spam.
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This poll is about duels and how to go about doing one Yes, So if i am say shopping at Harnequists and a Idiot challenges me (duel) in middle of shopping, how is that a duel ?. Yes i have the right to auto decline but why should i ?.
Daunt get me wrong i do like the odd duel, it is far better than telling my player to kill monster, it is more challenging to fight someone how is in control of a player.
But stop and think , do you not see the DEVs in my opinion are saying to us do it right or we will make it harder to duel.
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Janner, the development team\'s new rules only prevent players from sending out invite after invite after invite, or challenge after challenge. That is all. How you choose to roleplay around those challenges, or not roleplay, is up to the individual players.
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I would like to point out to you that since i started playing this game the penalty for duels has gone up not down.
So daunt you think it is time we as players started to help, by voluntary agreeing on way to go about duels, as now if all you want to do for what ever reason to PvP, you have to stand around till time is up and challenge again, and if it is still abused then i fell it will be harder next update again.
I would also like to point out this was intended for guilds, so that we agree at lest on a starting point as to how to go about duels in the hope that new players see and hear how a duel is done and learn that it is not common to randomly challenge someone to a duel.
I do not expect the rules we agree on to be followed to the letter, it was intended as a guide only.
:))
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Janner dear,
the Devs have been very clever with this.
You can no longer challenge player after player until you get a fight.
So now, if you want a fight, you will have to RP for it. :)
That is the Devs\' message.
Again, I say we should make a \"Code for Honorable Duelling\", that Noobs can read in the library.
To aid in this, I call for the historians among us, to let us know the details of duelling customs in days gone by. (Links would be good)
Verrliit
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I would be happy for a \"Code for Honorable Duelling\" to be placed in the library.
Bowes to Verrliit
:))
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Originally posted by r.guppy
This poll is about duels and how to go about doing one Yes, So if i am say shopping at Harnequists and a Idiot challenges me (duel) in middle of shopping, how is that a duel ?. Yes i have the right to auto decline but why should i ?.
Daunt get me wrong i do like the odd duel, it is far better than telling my player to kill monster, it is more challenging to fight someone how is in control of a player.
But stop and think , do you not see the DEVs in my opinion are saying to us do it right or we will make it harder to duel.
Do you even know what autodecline is? Autodecline means that you never even see the duel confirmation dialogue box. It\'s as if you were never challenged.
Janner.... really....
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Yes just about the response i have got accustomed to so i say again why should i?
Daunt get me wrong i do like the odd duel, it is far better than telling my player to kill monster, it is more challenging to fight someone how is in control of a player.
and to Parret you zanzibar.... really....
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At Lady Verrliit\'s request and for those interested, I present the origional \"Code Duello\" (Dueling Code). It covered affairs of honor between gentlemen both in Europe and America (particularly in the south) and was used extensively until dueling was outlawed.
Most affairs of honor were settled at a place generally agreed on for such matters (like the \"Dueling Oaks\" in New Orleans) and perhaps it would be a good idea to have a place similar in the realm reserved for such matters of honor.
Should members of the realm choose to civilize dueling, I suggest that they adapt this code and use it as a model. Bear in mind though that the Code Duello was used only by men of honor. To those who have no honor it was worthless.
(see also: PIP\'s POLL)
SensoTaka Kishu : Leader of the Defenders
The Code Duello, covering the practice of dueling and points of honor, was drawn up and settled at Clonmel Summer Assizes, 1777, by gentlemen-delegates of Tipperary, Galway, Sligo, Mayo and Roscommon, and prescribed for general adoption throughout Ireland. The Code was generally also followed in England and on the Continent with some slight variations. In America, the principal rules were followed, although occasionally there were some glaring deviations.
Rule 1. The first offense requires the first apology, though the retort may have been more offensive than the insult. Example: A tells B he is impertinent, etc. B retorts that he lies; yet A must make the first apology because he gave the first offense, and then (after one fire) B may explain away the retort by a subsequent apology.
Rule 2. But if the parties would rather fight on, then after two shots each (but in no case before), B may explain first, and A apologize afterward.
N.B. The above rules apply to all cases of offenses in retort not of stronger class than the example.
Rule 3. If a doubt exist who gave the first offense, the decision rests with the seconds; if they won\'t decide, or can\'t agree, the matter must proceed to two shots, or to a hit, if the challenger require it.
Rule 4. When the lie direct is the first offense, the aggressor must either beg pardon in express terms; exchange two shots previous to apology; or three shots followed up by explanation; or fire on till a severe hit be received by one party or the other.
Rule 5. As a blow is strictly prohibited under any circumstances among gentlemen, no verbal apology can be received for such an insult. The alternatives, therefore -- the offender handing a cane to the injured party, to be used on his own back, at the same time begging pardon; firing on until one or both are disabled; or exchanging three shots, and then asking pardon without proffer of the cane.
If swords are used, the parties engage until one is well blooded, disabled, or disarmed; or until, after receiving a wound, and blood being drawn, the aggressor begs pardon.
N.B. A disarm is considered the same as a disable. The disarmer may (strictly) break his adversary\'s sword; but if it be the challenger who is disarmed, it is considered as ungenerous to do so.
In the case the challenged be disarmed and refuses to ask pardon or atone, he must not be killed, as formerly; but the challenger may lay his own sword on the aggressor\'s shoulder, then break the aggressor\'s sword and say, \"I spare your life!\" The challenged can never revive the quarrel -- the challenger may.
Rule 6. If A gives B the lie, and B retorts by a blow (being the two greatest offenses), no reconciliation can take place till after two discharges each, or a severe hit; after which B may beg A\'s pardon humbly for the blow and then A may explain simply for the lie; because a blow is never allowable, and the offense of the lie, therefore, merges in it. (See preceding rules.)
N.B. Challenges for undivulged causes may be reconciled on the ground, after one shot. An explanation or the slightest hit should be sufficient in such cases, because no personal offense transpired.
Rule 7. But no apology can be received, in any case, after the parties have actually taken ground, without exchange of fires.
Rule 8. In the above case, no challenger is obliged to divulge his cause of challenge (if private) unless required by the challenged so to do before their meeting.
Rule 9. All imputations of cheating at play, races, etc., to be considered equivalent to a blow; but may be reconciled after one shot, on admitting their falsehood and begging pardon publicly.
Rule 10. Any insult to a lady under a gentleman\'s care or protection to be considered as, by one degree, a greater offense than if given to the gentleman personally, and to be regulated accordingly.
Rule 11. Offenses originating or accruing from the support of ladies\' reputations, to be considered as less unjustifiable than any others of the same class, and as admitting of slighter apologies by the aggressor: this to be determined by the circumstances of the case, but always favorable to the lady.
Rule 12. In simple, unpremeditated recontres with the smallsword, or couteau de chasse, the rule is -- first draw, first sheath, unless blood is drawn; then both sheath, and proceed to investigation.
Rule 13. No dumb shooting or firing in the air is admissible in any case. The challenger ought not to have challenged without receiving offense; and the challenged ought, if he gave offense, to have made an apology before he came on the ground; therefore, children\'s play must be dishonorable on one side or the other, and is accordingly prohibited.
Rule 14. Seconds to be of equal rank in society with the principals they attend, inasmuch as a second may either choose or chance to become a principal, and equality is indispensible.
Rule 15. Challenges are never to be delivered at night, unless the party to be challenged intend leaving the place of offense before morning; for it is desirable to avoid all hot-headed proceedings.
Rule 16. The challenged has the right to choose his own weapon, unless the challenger gives his honor he is no swordsman; after which, however, he can decline any second species of weapon proposed by the challenged.
Rule 17. The challenged chooses his ground; the challenger chooses his distance; the seconds fix the time and terms of firing.
Rule 18. The seconds load in presence of each other, unless they give their mutual honors they have charged smooth and single, which should be held sufficient.
Rule 19. Firing may be regulated -- first by signal; secondly, by word of command; or thirdly, at pleasure -- as may be agreeable to the parties. In the latter case, the parties may fire at their reasonable leisure, but second presents and rests are strictly prohibited.
Rule 20. In all cases a miss-fire is equivalent to a shot, and a snap or non-cock is to be considered as a miss-fire.
Rule 21. Seconds are bound to attempt a reconciliation before the meeting takes place, or after sufficient firing or hits, as specified.
Rule 22. Any wound sufficient to agitate the nerves and necessarily make the hand shake, must end the business for that day.
Rule 23. If the cause of the meeting be of such a nature that no apology or explanation can or will be received, the challenged takes his ground, and calls on the challenger to proceed as he chooses; in such cases, firing at pleasure is the usual practice, but may be varied by agreement.
Rule 24. In slight cases, the second hands his principal but one pistol; but in gross cases, two, holding another case ready charged in reserve.
Rule 25. Where seconds disagree, and resolve to exchange shots themselves, it must be at the same time and at right angles with their principals, thus:
If with swords, side by side, with five paces interval.
N.B. All matters and doubts not herein mentioned will be explained and cleared up by application to the committee, who meet alternately at Clonmel and Galway, at the quarter sessions, for that purpose.
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Originally posted by r.guppy
Yes just about the response i have got accustomed to so i say again why should i?
Daunt get me wrong i do like the odd duel, it is far better than telling my player to kill monster, it is more challenging to fight someone how is in control of a player.
and to Parret you zanzibar.... really....
You didn\'t even respond to the content of my post.....
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I see no point in debating same thing in two threads so will stop in this one.
:))
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Originally posted by zanzibar
You\'re still being way too narrow minded on this. Seytra, I don\'t RP \"Evil\". I don\'t RP \"Annoying\". I don\'t RP \"Comical\", or \"Pathetic\", or \"Friend\", or \"Wise\".
It is of absolutely no importance what you RP. Your character has no relevance here. This is not a discussion about your character, it is a discussion about what the settings are, and what the quality of your RP is, as measured by it\'s adherence to the settings. And these most definitely don\'t contain the glitches that the current implementation contains (nor any other). And as in any RPG the setting, not the game mechanics, are what defines RP; things that are not in the setting must not be RPd, for else it won\'t be RP anymore.
Likewise, if the settings obviously intend something to be a certain way, then this is what is to be RPd, and nothing else.
Example: If in any PnP RPG there is a typo calling a Troll a Trll, do you in your RP call them \"Trlls\", or \"Trolls\"? The intent is clearly to have it say \"Troll\", but if you choose to ignore that, then you are violating the setting, and aren\'t RPing anymore.
Originally posted by zanzibar
I RP within a ~system~ of different personalities and people all working together to create something new and greater than the individual parts. You and me doing things differently in the same place and time is what creates the complexity which makes RP interesting and good. It\'s the same with everyone. We all RP with different values and beliefs surrounding friendship, loyalty, violence, knowledge, riches, life and death. Though you might prefer your combintation above all others, the others are no less valid by default. Instead, you need to learn how to get along with others in a more complex system of RP where being ok, being healthy, even being happy isn\'t the normal state at all times. In any RPG and in any story, people get frustrated. They get sick and die. They hurt one another, and they find revenge. But this is what makes the ~good~ parts of RP worthwhile and interesting and things to be treasured. I wish you could see things that way.
Seriously, are you trying to mock me? Did I really post so incredibly unclear that I still failed to clarify the distinction?
This is not about RPing a good world, or a bad one, or whatever! This is solely about RPing within the settings and not outside it!
Yes, quite obviously RP thrives in conflict. However this conflict must be entirely IC, entirely within the settings and entirely agreed upon by the players (not the chars).
Thus, a bug that kills you most definitely is not RP. Conversely, if you are able to RP very well, and you agree with another RPer that the outcome of a fight is the very same death, then this is RP. However, spamming someone by dueling invites without having OOC-ly agreed upon the fight, then this is not RP: the victim cannot be sure that you are 1) 100% IC and thus have legitimate reason to, and 2) that you are a trustworthy and reliable RPer, i.e., that you will not abuse your part in the RP.
Also, what you are saying is valid only for exceptionally good RPers: building stealing, killing, etc. entirely into the game mechanics. This will not work out with basic or intermediate RPers (and these are what makes up the majority of all RPers). It will also not work out when the exceptional RPer isn\'t 100% sure that you are also an exceptional RPer. I have tried to explain this to you countless times already, and believe me, it is frustrating to have to try yet another time.
The other playerbase for which this works out well are OOC PvPers. However, this is just as much RP as is you sitting at your computer and controlling a virtual avatar in a virtual world: not at all.
Therefore, every player must have the option to \"live in the happy buble\" when and for as long as they wish. Every other system will lead to a lot of grief with
- basic and intermediate RPers (most simply aren\'t capable of taking serious damage to their chars)
- exceptional RPers who feel that the action was not conducted by another exceptional RPer, but by an OOC PKer or otherwise inferior RP.
And let me tell you two things:
1) I certainly am not an exceptional RPer. I can deal with some damage to my char, but by far not everything and most definitely not by just about anyone.
2) You most definitely don\'t come accross as an even basic RPer. Your \"RP\" looks like a sad attempt to justify your completely OOC PKing moods as IC. You also see yourself on the side of the person committing the crime (accepting the consequences of being on this side is ridiculously easy), and never on the side of the victim (accepting the consequences of being on this side is a lot harder). You make sure that you never will be by PLing. If you would somehow become mutilated so as, for example, having all stats permanently set to 10 by someone randomly poisoning you, I have reason to assume that you would not RP that, but instead delete and re-create your \"char\", or start using another char. How is that RP? So unless you can prove that you are actually capable of RPing every random negative consequences, don\'t try to force such a system on others. Your lack of distinction between IC and OOC is further proof that your RP isn\'t real RP.
So I view your talk about \"RP containing all that negative stuff\" as highly bigoted: you want to inflict, without restriction, these negative things upon others. Never did you even intend to take and deal with these things being inflicted upon yourself.
Sorry to be so blunt, but seriously I am getting sick of your continous rehashing of this same argument while you still fail to grasp even the most basic concepts of proper RP and why RP is not a free-for-all. Your additional unwillingness to distinguish between the settings and the highly preliminary implementation of PS is further hurting your points. All in all you come accross as having no clue of what you are talking about, while trying to hide your being a pure OOC PKer at best.
And seriously, the new anti duelling spam mechanics are weakening your points as well. They are proof that the devs also consider the unagreed, impersonal challenges as undesirable and not meant to exist. The new rules allow equally for OOC agreements as well as for IC ones (which imply OOC agreement), so they don\'t strictly enforce RP. However, they enforce proper OOC etiquette. This etiquette is the opposite of what you propose: being able to harm just about anyone as you please without their consent. You want to be able to tell any player who is unhappy about you harming them \"It\'s just how the system works, so deal with it, the world isn\'t fair, shut up!\". This is selfish and ignorant to say the very least. The system must be absolutely fair, because if you seek OOC unfairness, don\'t play games, there is plenty of unfairness to be had IRL. IC unfairness has to be RPd within the OOC-ly fair system. This is what you want to avoid, but the devs are trying to achieve just that. So clearly your way of doing PvP is what the devs don\'t want in PS.
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Good god. Right, this isn\'t about my character. This is about the system that we RP within. I don\'t RP evil, I don\'t RP Shalmaneser, I RP \"Planeshift\" same as you do. But no, the issue here is not duel spamming because everyone is in agreement on it.
I merely skipped through your attempt at flaming because it was both so off target and off topic. Take that time and energy and put it into trying to get at the meaning behind the posts of others before you so hastily respond to them. If there was any real content in there, feel free to repost it without the spam for consideration.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Good god. Right, this isn\'t about my character. This is about the system that we RP within. I don\'t RP evil, I don\'t RP Shalmaneser, I RP \"Planeshift\" same as you do.
I RP my character. I don\'t RP a game. Also, please don\'t try to imply that your \"RP\" is even remotely similar to mine.
Originally posted by zanzibar
But no, the issue here is not duel spamming because everyone is in agreement on it.
Is everyone really? This is by far not clear, in particular not from your post. Maybe you should add a bit more text to make sure it is clear?
Originally posted by zanzibar
I merely skipped through your attempt at flaming because it was both so off target and off topic.
In fact, the recent discussion has been about duelling spam WRT the new mechanics. So it\'s perfectly on topic.
Originally posted by zanzibar
Take that time and energy and put it into trying to get at the meaning behind the posts of others before you so hastily respond to them. If there was any real content in there, feel free to repost it without the spam for consideration.
I don\'t see you putting any effort or time or energy into getting meaning into your posts and / or trying to make clear what you are trying to say. So seriously, the best I can do is to guess what you want to say, and if that isn\'t what you wanted to say, then this is your fault because you didn\'t bother to make it clear, not my fault.
So how about you in the future clarify your poses a little so others will have a realistic chance of getting the meaning of them?
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Um.
Now that the obligatory, \"I am better than you are. I play and RP properly, and you don\'t.\" posts by Seytra are out of the way...
Back to topic.
In this thread, we are creating a Code of Honorable Duelling.
This is a discussion of what is considered polite and appropriate.
I think that all will agree, on what would be first and foremost, the most appropriate, polite and honorable thing.
That anyone who wants to have a fight with someone else, wait until we are finished writing our Code, and then use it to go duelling.
Verrliit
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Verrliit, I agree with everything you just said, including the bit on Seytra (unfortunately). Yes, this is about establishing an honourable way of duelling by the dominant / most popular definition of honour.
But it seems to me that a few people also feel that this is the correct way to duel.... the right way, the only way. So strongly, that such rules should even be built into the mechanics of Planeshift -- that violations of this IC code should have OOC consequences. Am I wrong? Is this attitude not actually there, and I\'m chasing shadows? Or do we all agree that this is merely a set of rules that many characters will agree upon, but everyone will have the opportunity to break them if and when they choose to, with only IC consequences?
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Look forward to the finished \'Code of Conduct for Duelists\' and will happily give comments on it when it is here...
In the mean time... one really shouldn\'t just challenge without first RP the build up to the Challenge... or at least /tell if if is an assassination attempt ... as some players do take offence when it is done to them with out provokation.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Verrliit, I agree with everything you just said, including the bit on Seytra (unfortunately).
Obviously, I never doubted you would.
Originally posted by zanzibar
But it seems to me that a few people also feel that this is the correct way to duel.... the right way, the only way. So strongly, that such rules should even be built into the mechanics of Planeshift -- that violations of this IC code should have OOC consequences. Am I wrong? Is this attitude not actually there, and I\'m chasing shadows? Or do we all agree that this is merely a set of rules that many characters will agree upon, but everyone will have the opportunity to break them if and when they choose to, with only IC consequences?
We do agree that this is merely a set of guidelines. With valid IC reason, and with the proper OOC clarification and the proper way to RP this, then characters will obviously break these rules. And they need to also fully accept the IC consequences should they get caught realistically.
On the other hand, this is by far no free for all for rulebreaking through pseudo-RP (i.e., OOC PvP disguised as RP). Those cases need to have OOC consequences, just as any other disruption of RP.
The only exception is that IMO players should still try to move duels off populated places, but I already explained that and the reasons for it.
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That\'s all nice Seytra, and I appreciate that you held back the flaming and ad hominems. Sometimes that\'s not an easy thing to do. But I also know that your definition of what constitutes out-of-character behaviour is sometimes radically different than the views held by other players, so I think we should try to be as clear and objective about what we\'re saying as possible.
Personally, I have no intention of interupting RP with OOC notification that I\'m about to RP an evil, or misguided, or true neutral, or chaotic, or roguish, or misleading character or action. I think that such \"OOC notification\" is disruptive, and that people should assume a reasonable element of risk when engaging in an RPG, but perhaps I misunderstood you?
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Originally posted by zanzibar
That\'s all nice Seytra, and I appreciate that you held back the flaming and ad hominems. Sometimes that\'s not an easy thing to do.
This is hard only when there is no noticable good will coming from the other side. You will (or should) have noticed that I try to abstain from overly harsh comments for quite a while before stating my opinions more bluntly. Apart from that, it wasn\'t true flaming anyway.
Originally posted by zanzibar
But I also know that your definition of what constitutes out-of-character behaviour is sometimes radically different than the views held by other players, so I think we should try to be as clear and objective about what we\'re saying as possible.
Personally, I have no intention of interupting RP with OOC notification that I\'m about to RP an evil, or misguided, or true neutral, or chaotic, or roguish, or misleading character or action. I think that such \"OOC notification\" is disruptive, and that people should assume a reasonable element of risk when engaging in an RPG, but perhaps I misunderstood you?
No, you understood me perfectly well. Due to the vast amount of bad, or non-RPers, the common trends to abuse the internet\'s anonymity to be shielded from retaliation, and the experiences from other MMORPGs with how the majority of players (ab) use the PvP system, I have come to the conclusion that one can not only not assume that other players are good RPers, in character or even not trying to gain OOC benefits from the use of any such system, but that one must assume that everything that doesn\'t clearly stem from RP with that person is OOC. If that person is either not known to one, or if that person never RPd with one, then they must be assumed to be OOC.
And even if not, RP storylines can vastly differ, sadly, due to OOC constraints. So one person may be farther down the timeline than another, and thus the assassination attempt wouldn\'t be due in the one RPers reality yet until they manage to get to the point in time.
All these mean that an OOC agreement must be reached beforehand. They are most definitely not disruptive to RP. On the contrary, they clear up how the RP is meant to be received and thus exclude misinterpretation. Not having such an OOC agreement beforehand is a lot more disruptive to RP, because the RPer has no way to assess if it is OOC or IC and if IC matches.
People must not assume any risk when engaging in RP. At any one time, people must be able to choose if they wish to take a risk or not, as I explained in one of the previous posts.
But without any notification, how are they even going to know whether or not you are actually RPing at all? So even if they are willing to assume \"risks\" by engaging in RP, if they see a random duelling request popping up, how will they know that it is from another RPer, not from an OOC PvP er or griefer?
IMNSHO, the one who wishes to truly RP a malicious deed, will have the burden to make sure that it is clear to everyone that the deed is IC, and also to ensure that it is acceptable to everyone einvolved. I think you are making it a lot too easy for malicious people, and you are placing the burden of figuring out if it\'s IC or not and all the other implications onto the victim, who has more than enough o do with dealing with the results.
Fact: most people in PS are not exceptional RPers.
Fact: only exceptional RPers can deal with being the victim side almost universally
Fact: there are by far less RPers, even less good ones, than there are abusers, griefers, jerks and OOC PvPers in any online game.
Conclusion: malicious deeds must be previously agreed upon OOCly to avoid any grief.
And since I am unable to further explain it, and because I think that this is so obvious and clear that I can\'t see why anyone would not agree with that (except for OOC maliciousness), I will stop with this post on this subject. If you really think so radically different than I do, then no amount of clarifying will ever make sense to you. Everyone else can read my other posts. I can\'t make it any clearer, so I won\'t try.
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Ha! Well that certainly didn\'t last very long.
Anyway, Planeshift is an RP game. So, unlike you, I assume that what people do is IC first and foremost. Also, I don\'t assume that everyone around me stinks at RP relative to my own leet role-playing skills or is behaving OOC without apology. Some people call it benefit of the doubt, other people call it RP. Also, we aren\'t talking about random duels popping up. That\'s a different issue, and everyone pretty much agrees that duel spamming is bad.
Then again, if you go around assuming that everyone around you is either acting OOC or stinks at RP, then you will see what you want to see. You admitted in your post that you\'re incapabable of seeing the other side of this discussion, which I think is fairly alarming:
I think that this is so obvious and clear that I can\'t see why anyone would not agree with that (except for OOC maliciousness)
It\'s nice. Anyone that disagrees with you is practicing \"out of character maliciousness\". You do realize that this forum id strictly out of character, yes? Anyway, you should still work at seeing issues from all sides. It helps in moving discussions forward. And I\'m not sure if you answered my concern about consent to malicious deeds being intrinsic to simply playing a RPG. Perhaps I missed it in your post?
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I am slowly parsing the language of the Code Duello, that Sensotaka was so gracious to gift to us.
Since no one else has had time or seen fit, to post on-topic as yet, I will make a beginning, myself.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . - THE CODE OF HONORABLE DUELLING -
PREAMBLE:
Those who have Honor, take heed of this code.
A Duel of Honor is a fight for Honor. It is not sparring. It is not fought to gauge one\'s strength or skills. It is fought to gain by force, an apology or redress, for an insult or wrong.
You who challenge for a matter of honor, take care that you do not dishonor yourself whilst you punish one deserving. Search your heart well, for one who but pretends to duel for Honor, is a scoundrel, to whom no respect is due.
Both challenger and challenged, must search their hearts; for honor is best served by apology and forgiveness, negotiation and redress.
THE PROTOCOLS:
1. The challenger accuses the one to be challenged, preferably in public, proclaiming that insult or injury is his cause. (Specifics need not be public, but the matter at issue, must be clear to both parties.)
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It is a beginning.
I could use some help.
Anyone?
Verrliit
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an Honour duel should be public, fun duels shouldn\'t have to public, but everyone will be going \"But that was an Honour duel!\" so it could be hard to do this
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Originally posted by darkw00t
an Honour duel should be public, fun duels shouldn\'t have to public, but everyone will be going \"But that was an Honour duel!\" so it could be hard to do this
In case you were worried:
Hide-and-go-Kill is quite safe, as is sparring. These are both outside of the RP of duelling, and both will continue.
We have simply recognized that outside of those two things, the Devs have cleverly forced RP upon those who wish to be duellists, because they cannot obtain an opponent otherwise.
Since that is so, we are creatiing RP guidelines for honorable duelling.
These are not Rules for players. These are definitions of terms, and of courtesy.
Following the code or not, depends entirely on whether or not one is playing an honorable character.
These are only a starting point for RP, a common language to discuss duelling, and a reference to measure the quality of our duelling RP against.
I am not about to give up Hide-and-go-Kill, either.
Having fun is why I\'m here.
Verrliit
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why not look up dueling throught the ages... and see what gentlemanly rules there used to be and start from there...?
http://renaissance.dm.net/compendium/26.html
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Verrliit, may I offer the following:
2. The accused may counter with further accusations against the challenger, but if apology is forthcoming and accepted the duel is concluded.
3. If the parties prefer to continue, they may fight on until one is wounded, disabled or first blood is drawn.
Perhaps someone else can continue....................
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Originally posted by Verrliit
Um.
Now that the obligatory, \"I am better than you are. I play and RP properly, and you don\'t.\" posts by Seytra are out of the way...
Its true and good RP...:)
Back to topic.
In this thread, we are creating a Code of Honorable Duelling.
Since links were asked for I would like to present a link on Norse dueling in Old Iceland. I admit that I had made a comment about limited rules for dueling in Iceland, and apologize for the mistake. I had confused the actual formal duel with informal single combat. This link provides some interesting information and is not quite as restrictive-detailed as the other Code presented. Perhaps an amalgamation of the two?
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/drengur.htm
from the Hurstwic website:
Many of the descriptions of duels in the sagas begin with a recitation of the dueling law (h?lmg?ngul?g). The law seems to vary from one saga to the next, but there are similarities.
For the duel, a cloak was laid on the ground, about three meters square. If either man stepped off the cloak, he lost the duel and was deemed to be n??ingr.
Weapons used were swords, spears, and axes. Each man was allowed three shields, in the likely possibility of breakage. If either man\'s blood fell on the cloak, he was permitted to withdraw from the duel. The man with the worse wound could buy himself off. However, if a man died, all his property went to the winner, so most fights were to the death.
Chapter 9 of Svarfd?la saga provides slightly different details:
Then they proceeded to where they were to fight, and Moldi said he would state the duelling rules, \"for I have challenged you. Each of us will place his cloak under his feet, and each of us must stand on his cloak, not moving the thickness of a finger, and the one that moves will bear a coward\'s name, while the man that wins will be called a valiant man wherever he goes. Whoever is wounded or defeated can release himself from the duel by paying three marks.\"
Additional links on the subject:
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/holmgang.htm
Wikipedia on duels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel
General Info:
http://faculty.smu.edu/bwheeler/Ency/duels.html
Interesting for its possible context in-game: :)
http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/history.html
Is this what you had in mind?
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In support of a code of honorable conduct, I offer the Defenders Code Duello as it is currently written. It is a product of several guild leader\'s attempts to civilize dueling (see: an invitation to all guild leaders). Perhaps it will spark a bit of interest in the specifics of such a code.
Note: it assumes the agrieved is intent on dueling to restore his or her honor and therefore does not cover the use of preduel formalities or other methods (such as the use of an apology) to settle disputes. Such things are thought to be normal courtesy.
SensoTaka Kishu : Defenders Banneret
\" I would rather die with honor than live with shame...\"
Note: in this context, \"defender\" refers to the being that is on the defense, not to a specific guild.
The Defenders Code Duello
Rules For Honorable Duelling
1. All communications concerning the duel are to be made in person and using the \"/say\" communication window so that others in the area may hear the conduct of the potential duelists.
2. In a formal duel, the rules should be gone over immidiately before the duel begins so that both parties fully understand them and agree to any variations.
3. No duelling in the plaza or any tavern at all, or anywhere that is well populated. (Unless by a prearranged audience)
4. A verbal challenge is made by the challanger or agrieved party giving (a) reason for challenge, (b) weapons preferred (including fists), (c) whether magic should or should not be used, (d) the prefered time and place of the event.
5.The defender may countermand the challanger\'s choice of weapons, the challangers choice concerning the use of magic and / or choice of time and date without damage to his honor. The challenge is then verbally accepted or declined by the defender.
6. When the conditions discussed in (b), (c) and (d) have been met, the duel should begin (assuming that the challange is accepted immidiately). Both the challenger and the defender should place themselves at a convenient length facing each other.
7. At an agreed signal, from a 3rd party if possible, the duel will begin.
8. If you use the PvP system for your RP fights, then any form of exploitation is not allowed. Commodities like shortcuts may be used for convenience, but not for speed.
9. For training purposes duelists should go to an empty room in the arena or away from areas which are busy, where parties can challenge each other as much as they wish. (This may suit those who like to fight each other for fun). In the case of multiple continuous practice sessions, a verbal challange is necessary only at the beginning of each session.
Note: it has ben suggested that the pit in the DR be used as a training area.
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With the new update the pit in death realm is not posable so suggested areas are:
To right of temple on grass near podium/ empty rooms in arena/ as you enter main city up steps to left grassy area/ Ojavada there is a empty room to left of first ramp in the warehouse districted/ open for more places.
:))
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An appendium to the Code Duello posts...
It should be noted that neither the origional Code Duello nor the Defenders Code Duello previously posted necessarilly required the death of a participant. Honor is satisfied if one or the other yeilds at any time durring the course of a duel and at such time the duel was formally ended with the shaking of hands.
If the attack was continued after this point or one participant attacked another after the duel was over, it was considered dishonorable (and usually resulted in termination of the offending participant by BOTH seconds).
Note: seconds (generally close and trusted friends) were often employed to ensure proper conduct by dueling participants, prevent interference by outsiders and to act as witnesses.
SensoTaka Kishu : Defenders Banneret
\"I would rather die with honor than live with shame...\"
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hi every one^^ here\'s a message from herugorth, he can\'t post the following himself, his computer is bugging or something :P
Can we add this rule in the \'Code of Conduct for Duelists\' :
The duelist must use equivalent weapons not only Sword vs Sword or Axe vs Axe.I mean that duelist must use Basic weapons not incredible weapons with XXX slash XXX blunt etc.
If they use \"normal\" weapons the duel will be a real duel not a Joke .
Because i think if 2 player have like 300hp and hit 200 or 30000 ^^ Where is the interest of dueling ??
A Gm can play the arbiter to prevent cheat or a player i dont know.
Herugorth
--> i\'m totaly agree with him
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it should all be up to whoever is having the duel... as long as they are both agreed to dueling nothing else should matter.
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I agree with Dray it is up too the pair involved how they fight and what with. :))
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Originally posted by Drey
it should all be up to whoever is having the duel... as long as they are both agreed to dueling nothing else should matter.
:) I too agree with Drey.
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Time is up. I for one will post in my guild to follow the guide rules. :))