PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: sesmi on October 16, 2005, 02:55:27 am
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http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_9880.shtml
Email: joseph_swank@yahoo.com
Reading it will explain its self.
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As if sending the guy emails would change his beliefs at all ;) Some people are just like that, but they seem to be much more numerous in older generations than in the new.
Sad, regardless.
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nah. they\'re just more vocal.
old, new they\'re all the same, and just as self contrictory.
\"i love religious freedom, but these cults have got to go.\"
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Listen, with this guy and all other fanatics, you can\'t change their mind by disagreeing with them. He\'ll only change his ways if he has some sort of life-changing event.
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If you read the religious texts of islam, you will see that that that is basically how it works. Islam is not a tolerant religion, true many Christians aren\'t tolerant, but Christianity itself does not preach to not be tolerant, like islam does. Islam present itself as the way, everyone else just needs to be destroyed to make the world a better place for muslims.
I\'ll definately be posting more in this topic as it turns into another political head bashing thread were no one sees anyone elses point of view, belisves in the ultimate rightiousness of their post, and flames everyone else :P
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Yes very sad... ignorant peopel bah :(... But yes it does matter which generation you are from. If you grew up in a generation that tended to be more racist (my grandfather) I would say these people tend to be more racist either way.. because people tend to do what is popular.. and if being racist is popular.. well you know the rest. Luckily for me we are moving a little more left and a little more left (liberal of course :) )... This guy is the reason why more and more people are turning away from organized religion... and oddly enough he doesnt see that either :P
Edit: haha Jellywerker beat me to the thread :).. finally we meet again :P
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Indeed :D we should jsut make a post and keep adding controversial topics to it, it will be good debate practice :D
10 years later: and today we have JellyWerker and Valbrandr facing off in the presidential debate... :P
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Originally posted by JellyWerker
If you read the religious texts of islam, you will see that that that is basically how it works. Islam is not a tolerant religion, true many Christians aren\'t tolerant, but Christianity itself does not preach to not be tolerant, like islam does. Islam present itself as the way, everyone else just needs to be destroyed to make the world a better place for muslims.
I\'ll definately be posting more in this topic as it turns into another political head bashing thread were no one sees anyone elses point of view, belisves in the ultimate rightiousness of their post, and flames everyone else :P
\"O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God\'s sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All Aware (49-13)\"
\"Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings. A marriage dowry is given by the groom to the bride for her own personal use, and she keeps her own family name rather than taking her husband\'s.\"
Examples of the Prophet`s sayings
The Prophet said:
\'God has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.\'
\'None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.\'
\'He who eats his fill while his neighbor goes without food is not a believer. \'
\'The truthful and trusty businessman is associated with the prophets the saints, and the martyrs.\'
\'Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger. \'
\'God does not judge according to your bodies and appearances but He scans your hearts and looks into your deeds.\'
\'A man walking along a path felt very thirsty. Reaching a well he descended into it, drank his fill and came up. Then he saw a dog with its tongue hanging out, trying to lick up mud to quench its thirst. The man saw that the dog was feeling the same thirst as he had felt so he went down into the well again and filled his shoe with water and gave the dog a drink. God forgave his sins for this action.\' The Prophet was asked: \'Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?\' He said, \'There is a reward for kindness to every living thing.\'
From the hadith collections of Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi and Bayhaqi
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We all know how religious debates end up on here, right? Nonexistant :)
Let\'s keep this in mind before you go all \"RAAGH!\" on each other.
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***Val chews on Karyuu
\"Raaaaaagh\"
No I can play nice. That sounds like a good idea Jellywerker... let me just get out my Koran and a few book on the Crusades and Ill be good to go :P.
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cool valbrandr :D
Sesmi: According to what you said there are so few true followers then. :/ like all seven of them, somewheres in remote india.
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It\'s good to see this didn\'t turn into a huge flame-fest.
Val: Wanna make set up a rule system for a debate thread? Organization is a good thing! :D
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A rules system would be neat - I hadn\'t thought about it - I\'m not Val but how about:
1.) No personal attacks
2.) Stay on topic - other topics are only permited as they pertain to your point.
3.) err somthing - I\'m no good at this.
Anyhoo,
If you read the religious texts of islam, you will see that that that is basically how it works. Islam is not a tolerant religion, true many Christians aren\'t tolerant, but Christianity itself does not preach to not be tolerant, like islam does. Islam present itself as the way, everyone else just needs to be destroyed to make the world a better place for muslims.
hmmm I don\'t know that much but every religion has parts that might be considered extreme now - Christianity is the same way.
\"And [Joshua\'s army] utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. [...] [Joshua] left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.\" (Joshua 6:21 and 10:40)
\"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword.\" (Jesus according to Matthew 10:34, KJV)
\"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.\" (Jesus according to Luke 19:27, KJV)
\"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.\" (Psalms 137:8-9, KJV)
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.\" (Numbers 31:7-18, KJV)
Wow this one is really nice - kill all those who have had sex with a man but save the virgins for yourself. Really pleasant.
The point I\'m trying to make is not that Christianity is evil - the point I\'m trying to make is that all religions have parts of their religions that aren\'t that nice. Remember that before anyone starts chastizing another religion you have to realize that your religion is probabily has undesirable parts as well. I mean it not as an insult but instead to put things in perspective.
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True, but how does that apply to today and what the average christian does in contrast with many muslims?
Btw, nice ruleset :D Valbrandr and I seem to have an unwritten ruleset between us :P
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Sure :)... we need to come up some rules for future fighting, scratching and biting.. and I still want to debate on this thread but I havent had the time to pull out texts from here and there. But we have to stress no personal attacks.. only attack ideas. If not they will close our thread again :(. But about this topid, I just dont see many differences in tolerance between Christians and Muslims... if you look at our bible, there is enough there to basically say someone who is not Christian will end up in hell. Though, 1200 years ago or so Islam was considered a Convert by the Sword religion, today It is the Christians constantly at my door :(.. Maybe how the Koran is written is more intolerant, but for one it depends on the people and how \"the word\" is interpreted. As evangelistical (if it is a word :P) Christians are they tend to be more of an annoyance to me.. and I have been one for 15 some odd years (a christian that is not an Evangelist). In truth I think all Organized religion has alot of problems.
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True, but how does that apply to today and what the average christian does in contrast with many muslims?
Btw, nice ruleset Valbrandr and I seem to have an unwritten ruleset between us
Thats an extremely interesting question actually, (thanks for complementing my lousy rules set btw), because I think something interesting is happening to both religions. They seem to be splitting a bit based on ideas. Most christians, like most muslems are nice, peaceful people. There are some from both sides that are becoming extremely fanatic. Its the fanatics of both religions that are the most dangerous. The real difference is the situation of the religions. Predominately Christian countries are protected by the U.S. generally, and as the dominate superpower in the world, that has trememndous influence. The fanatical Christians aren\'t feeling that their entire religion is threatened because it is currently essentially secure (could change of course). The fanatical Muslims are a different story as they are in a more desparate situation. They can\'t make much muslim headway worldwide with the US arround, and with the US as powerful as it is it cannot take us head to head in battle, and so the only way they can fight what they perceive to be an intrusian by the Christian US, is to use terrorist and guirella tactics against us. Our society perceives these things to be cowardly and evil. Thus, what they see as their only way to stop us, is perceived to be evil by the US. Which in many ways it is imo. I never support the killing of innocent people for any reason personally.
I guess the point I\'m trying to make is that neither one is really worse than the other, its just that one is in a more desperate situation than the other. Desparation breeds extremism and extreme action, so while as far as morals go they might all be about the same, one group gets driven to action while the other doesn\'t need to so one group (in this case the muslim faith) gets a name as a violent religion.
There are times I think that the world would be better without religion, but really, I think we\'d just find something else to fight over. Its a simple thing: People are drawn to and seem to crave conflict in one way or another - I think its that we crave some sort of at least illusion of control or empowerment.
Whether its going slow to annoy the person following your car to closely, flipping off the driver of a maniac car, beating up the guy who\'s banging your wife, arguing over religion or politics, joining protest groups, or becoming an issue activist, we all (gererality of course nothing is 100%) want seem to seek conflict in one way or another. Being left out of an arguement is irking, so one must take sides. Its a lesser phenomenon of Mob Mentality, only in a personal sense.
All in all I\'ve rambled far far far far far far far too long. I probabily have sidetracked this thread too - so umm to summarize - \"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.\" Basically - before you all start judging others and other religions realize that you are all guilty of things and that should warrent some understanding. No one can honestly say that they have never done anything wrong in their lives, so stop being judgemental - one must first recogonize ones own flaws before (if ever) pointing out others.
And thats my crappy sermon - thanks to all 0-2 of you who actually read all this. :D
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Originally posted by JellyWerker
True, but how does that apply to today and what the average Christian does in contrast with many Muslims?
So you think the ?average Muslim? is more aggressive / intolerant than the ?average Christian?? Why would you think so? Because of the shouting masses you see on TV now and then going ?down with the USA? and things along those lines?
If that?s the case I?d ask you to keep in mind that shouting masses easily could be a minority. Shouting people make it to the headlines, silent ones don?t. You barely can blame the press.
But even if you are right, and Muslims bear more hatred and anger towards the western countries than vice versa, I still have doubts about the reasons behind it. You state it is because the Islam itself is not tolerant. But the Koran quotes by Sesmi and the Bible quotes by Induane showed that the differences with Christianity on that matter are at least debatable.
I think that level of education plays an important role, because uneducated people are much more vulnerable for charismatic leaders who stir up the crowds with lies and half truths about the US and Israel. When people have a better education, they cool down.
It?s different when talking about radical Muslims living in western countries. Here it?s not the lack of education, but more the lack of acceptation and the distrust they encounter which make them turn away from the society and radicalize.
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Originally posted by Induane
The fanatical Christians aren\'t feeling that their entire religion is threatened because it is currently essentially secure (could change of course). The fanatical Muslims are a different story as they are in a more desperate situation. They can\'t make much muslim headway worldwide with the US around
I?m not sure about the situation in the US, but where I live there are people (not only fanatical Christians but also atheists or moderate Christians) who are afraid of the Muslims ?taking over?. They are a minority though. Also, I don?t think the USA blocks the Islamic headway worldwide, as the Islam is the fastest-growing of the mayor religions.
Originally posted by Induane
There are some from both sides that are becoming extremely fanatic. Its the fanatics of both religions that are the most dangerous. The real difference is the situation of the religions. Predominately Christian countries are protected by the U.S. generally, and as the dominate superpower in the world, that has trememndous influence.
I don?t think the US protects Christian counties. I think the US protects trade partners and befriended nations. That would also explain the liberation of the Islamic Kuwait and the lack of action when several dictators terrorized a lot of Christian countries in South-America. Same goes for lack of interest in the African countries with Christian majorities today.
I totally agree on the rest of your ?ramblings? though, and enjoyed reading it.
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Also, I don?t think the USA blocks the Islamic headway worldwide, as the Islam is the fastest-growing of the mayor religions.
You\'re right there - its a fact I knew and had forgotten so thanks for bringing that up. My mind is quite sluggish these days :D I actually don\'t know if the US isn\'t actually blocking Islam, or if they just aren\'t successful at it, either way, point taken.
If that?s the case I?d ask you to keep in mind that shouting masses easily could be a minority. Shouting people make it to the headlines, silent ones don?t. You barely can blame the press.
Yes, its what gets attention. No one can blame the press for reporting on it either, like you said. No one wants to hear a 5 minute report every day on how all the planes landed in the country without any problems, they want to hear about the one that explodes or at least has an engine fire or something else \"exciting\". News is a business venu, and it must put on TV what attracts viewers so they can make advertisement money.
It?s different when talking about radical Muslims living in western countries. Here it?s not the lack of education, but more the lack of acceptation and the distrust they encounter which make them turn away from the society and radicalize.
I think you are right for the most part, but remember, somtimes its a perceived lack of accpetance, or even imagined. I see that in the US with some minoritys believing that what goes against them is automatically a race issue, when chances are it isn\'t at all. Still, one must recogonize that when they turn away from someone, are rude, mean, or other means of chastization, that they can affect that person perception of your country based on you whether its justified or not, this is why I think every American (or anyone in their own country) should always approach strangers with the state of mind that they are setting an example for the country. We expect this of our leaders, and we should expect it of ourselves as well.
I don?t think the US protects Christian counties. I think the US protects trade partners and befriended nations. That would also explain the liberation of the Islamic Kuwait and the lack of action when several dictators terrorized a lot of Christian countries in South-America. Same goes for lack of interest in the African countries with Christian majorities today.
I was overgeneralizing here as well - its what happens during 5 am posts ;) Nah ... I probabily would have done it anyways. We usually protect nations for 2 reasons - the first being how it pretains to our own interests. We don\'t go to Africa on the premise that we went into iraq on because we don\'t really have any interests there. We could easily go on other reasons (same as stated for Iraq)
Crimes against humanity.
Failed states breed terrorism.
Brutal dictators.
As for protecting Christian Nations, well.. Israel is a good example. They aren\'t really that friendly towards us, but they know they only have to be semi-reasonable with us and we\'ll keep supplying them with weapons. Israel contains the holy land.
origionally said By George Bush, ?Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
\"There\'s nothing more deep than recognizing Israel\'s right to exist. That\'s the most deep thought of all. ... I can\'t think of anything more deep than that right.\"
I think that about sums up how he feels about it. As for other christian nations, well, perhaps I was jumpingthe gun. But I do think at the very least, we are protecting our \"holy land\".
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Has anyone here heard of the article \'Jihad vs. McWorld\'? Its about Globalization in many ways somewhat like the \'Lexus and the Olive Tree\'... but it makes the point that countries that have McDonalds dont make war on one another. Kind of like the Democratic Peace theory... it enforces that yes America does protect its trade partners. So, I would have to agree with Hitancrias as well. I tend to believe that America protects countries for atleast a base three reasons:
1) Trade partner
2) Protection of a Democracy
3) Christian - roots of - Jewish
All are debatable of course, and no we dont protect all Christians like those in Africa... sadly we wont go protect many if any of those countries because many of them have nothing of value to us.
Edit: I am a bit pressed for time, so ill stop there :)
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Hmm Valbrandr, that\'s a bit like how no matter how much arguing we do with Canada or Mexico or China, we probably will never have another war with them, for economic reasons (we haven\'t finished exporting all our jobs to India :P) We can\'t attack them because they are our national suppliers, and Canada is our fancy hat, so we couldn\'t attack them :P It\'s also true that the U.S. does prettymuch nothing for \"poor\" Christian countries, while others that might have something of value to us get all the aid they need, with a repayment plan of course...
I\'ll talk more later, need to shower.