PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: zanzibar on October 18, 2005, 09:35:58 pm
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Right now, a character can potentially max out every skill in the game. Instead, make it so that a character can only have X number of skills at level Y or above. That way, it won\'t be a community of supermen who are masters of all trades.
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...And that will prevent power-leveling, because?
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Originally posted by Draklar
...And that will prevent power-leveling, because?
Because then it won\'t be a community of supermen who are masters of all trades.
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Currently there aren\'t that many trades to master at all, and there is still \"powerleveling.\" It\'s not that powerleveling means getting everything done as fast and as efficiently as possible. It\'s that it is done completely OOC.
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they would still be supermen, but restricted, and who the hell wants to play a fnatasy game where they can only be one thing or another. theres no way to stop powerlevelling efficiently, doubt there ever will be.
if its such an annoyance how about you just ignore it :)
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Oook, let\'s take little steps then:
Power-leveler is a guy that goes around bashing monsters with no thought of the actual role-playing. You aren\'t going to fix that by making specializations. Simply someone will specialize in swords, or daggers, or axes, or magic, or...
Edit: There is a way to stop power-leveling though... It just needs completely different system (much like the online non-graphical strategy games, where you use fixed ammount of points per day).
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thats just restricting again, it dpesnt stop PL just slows it down, someone will always still grind
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A solution : no experience && no items => no power-level
(ok, this was obvious spam)
But that is true that due to the fact that your character will be with time greatly improved, there is chance of powerleveling.
In fact the idea of zanzibar is not bad but the limit should not be implemented : the implementation should create the limits. I mean the point is you won\'t master all because you would not have the time to pratice enough all at the same ratio. One idea could be skill which slow down wit the time but whit a bad implementation this will discourage chatting and rp...
All what I am saying is not new of course... In fact nothing in this thread is really new..
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Nope, because you\'ll have same progress no matter whether you spend 1 hour or 10 hours training ingame...
If someone plays 10 hours, that\'s not power-leveling then, because he already alocated his points in the past hours, and now solely fights for the sake of fighting.
Edit: Examples:
Given 50 point to alocate on various skills.
1st hour
sword: 200exp
shield: 300 exp
mining: 500 exp
In the end: sword (10), shield (15), mining (25)
1st hour + 2nd hour
sword: 500 exp
shield: 500 exp
mining: 1500 exp
In the end: sword (10), shield (10), mining (30)
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that wont stop someone grinding until they max it out, of which is powerlevelling, so it\'ll still be there.
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Not by definition:
Powerleveling - Playing the game with focus on finding the fastest and most efficient way to raise in level.
That doesn\'t exist if your progress is same no matter what you do.
You solely would decide what this progress will be aimed for.
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Originally posted by Draklar
Not by definition:
Powerleveling - Playing the game with focus on finding the fastest and most efficient way to raise in level.
That doesn\'t exist if your progress is same no matter what you do.
You solely would decide what this progress will be aimed for.
Ok, but people here mean something else when they use the P word.
Originally posted by Keyaz
they would still be supermen, but restricted, and who the hell wants to play a fnatasy game where they can only be one thing or another. theres no way to stop powerlevelling efficiently, doubt there ever will be.
if its such an annoyance how about you just ignore it :)
When did I say it was an annoyance?
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Seems to me the answer (at least a partial one) lies in time managment. What I mean is simply this, in RL (shudder) a person who masters a skill and does not use it atrophies, in other words begins to lose proficiency.
For instance, a pro football player decides he wants to play baseball. So he neglects his maintenence of his football skills to devote the time to baseball. As his skills in baseball increase, his skills in football atrophy and the amount and daily percentage of that atrophy increase the longer that those skills remain unused. If the player should choose to return to football, he would find his skills reduced by the amount of daily atrophy (+1 pct per ?) multiplied by the number of days since he used that skill. Skills common to both sports would of course remain unaffected by atrophy since they are being used.
If skill levels in game atrophied in the same manner, power levelers would be unable to max out on all skills as their time would be consumed in maintenence of those skills they already posess. They would be faced with a choice, to be good at several skills or be great at only a few related ones.
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But that doesn\'t help to diminish powerleveling, as stated previously. One could very well \"powerlevel\" one skill or two skills at most, continuously. The issue is the player\'s actions being OOC, for it is entirely possible for the character in front of the player to seek the quickest and most efficient ways to become greater, or be a jack-of-all-trades.
Bashing monsters all day long is perfectly acceptable as long as it has some RP basis. Usually, it doesn\'t. None of these suggestions will change this.
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Originally posted by Sensotaka
Seems to me the answer (at least a partial one) lies in time managment. What I mean is simply this, in RL (shudder) a person who masters a skill and does not use it atrophies, in other words begins to lose proficiency.
For instance, a pro football player decides he wants to play baseball. So he neglects his maintenence of his football skills to devote the time to baseball. As his skills in baseball increase, his skills in football atrophy and the amount and daily percentage of that atrophy increase the longer that those skills remain unused. If the player should choose to return to football, he would find his skills reduced by the amount of daily atrophy (+1 pct per ?) multiplied by the number of days since he used that skill. Skills common to both sports would of course remain unaffected by atrophy since they are being used.
If skill levels in game atrophied in the same manner, power levelers would be unable to max out on all skills as their time would be consumed in maintenence of those skills they already posess. They would be faced with a choice, to be good at several skills or be great at only a few related ones.
That\'s almost worse. Intead of having to put up with individuals who choose to max out their characters and who don\'t RP, now everyone would have to dedicate some time every day just to attending to their skill levels.
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I dunno, maybe it would be cool if the stats all followed sort of a proportional code thing, so that maybe 1, 2, or 3 stats were pretty high, then the rest were in the middle, then like 2 or 3 were bad. It would introduce a new strategic element, recognising a foe\'s strengths and weaknesses, and exploiting them. It would also open up new ideas for starting guilds, because people might form a guild based on their stats, and what they\'re good at in the game, rather than more what they enjoy. Of course, it wouldn\'t change anything that exists right now, it would just make the game more distinctive (I hope they don\'t use my idea, I was counting on it for a project of my own).
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Originally posted by Draklar
Not by definition:
Powerleveling - Playing the game with focus on finding the fastest and most efficient way to raise in level.
That doesn\'t exist if your progress is same no matter what you do.
You solely would decide what this progress will be aimed for.
People can abuse that too, i.e. staying logged in all night.
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OK, obviously there\'s a lot of ideas under all of this.
There\'s stratification, which means different people are at different levels of ability. This is a good thing, right?
And there\'s specialization, which is a term people understand, and the community also thinks it\'s a good thing.
If we limit the level of mastery all individuals can get in a particular skill, then we\'ve done nothing to encourage specialization and we\'ve done something to hurt stratification.
However, if we limit the number of skills all individuals can gain mastery in, we encourage specialization and we increase stratification. In a given skill, instead of having everyone at the top or bottom, most people will be in the middle with a few at the top or bottom.
This is of course everyone doesn\'t choose swords or daggers as their primary skill! So my idea can only work once crafting and magic is working.
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[hijack]
I told you: the way to stop power-leveling is making the fastest method of advancement role-playing. Sure, you can power-level, but only in-character. :)
And don\'t ask how here please, I detailed it in \"GM vs. DM\" and \"RPing Planeshift: How to Enforce It\" which I wrote... a while ago. I don\'t want to do any more hijacking, so...
[/hijack]
Anyway, if you look at it logically, the if there is no way to stop a player from doing the thing that makes him/her advance as fast as possible and the goal is to make this player act in-character instead of trying to advance out-of-character, then logically, make the method of advancement acting in-character. :)
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Originally posted by Cha0s
[hijack]
I told you: the way to stop power-leveling is making the fastest method of advancement role-playing. Sure, you can power-level, but only in-character. :)
And don\'t ask how here please, I detailed it in \"GM vs. DM\" and \"RPing Planeshift: How to Enforce It\" which I wrote... a while ago. I don\'t want to do any more hijacking, so...
[/hijack]
Anyway, if you look at it logically, the if there is no way to stop a player from doing the thing that makes him/her advance as fast as possible and the goal is to make this player act in-character instead of trying to advance out-of-character, then logically, make the method of advancement acting in-character. :)
i) Not realistic. One does not increase ability in swords by chatting in the tavern.
ii) Not accurate. GMs can\'t be in all places at once. Some people are quiet by nature. Some people RP through guild chat and tells rather than the public chat.
iii) Inorganic. Too open to favouritism. Advancement must be in the mechanics of the game, and not in the hands of GMs who are busy enough as it is.
Ok, now back to the original subject....
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Originally posted by zanzibar
i) Not realistic. One does not increase ability in swords by chatting in the tavern.
First, did I say that role-playing didn\'t involve killing things? That was rhetorical: I didn\'t. Second, are you saying that it makes sense that you increase your cartography skill by killing things? Or your Azure magic skill by mining?
ii) Not accurate. GMs can\'t be in all places at once. Some people are quiet by nature. Some people RP through guild chat and tells rather than the public chat.
That\'s why I advocate for the creation of a new bigger team in addition to the current GMs. As for role-playing in guild chat and tells, that\'s not acceptable role-play. Unless there is a reason no one can hear what you are saying, say what you\'re saying in public chat. In addition, these new GMs should be able to hear both guild and group chat. As for quiet people, they can role-play without words. Emotes can be an excellent form or role-play. If you mean people who are naturally quiet in-real-life, then, I understand that they may be shy or simply quiet, but if they can\'t talk, they can\'t role-play, and Planeshift is centered on role-play.
iii) Inorganic. Too open to favouritism. Advancement must be in the mechanics of the game, and not in the hands of GMs who are busy enough as it is.
Yes, there may be favoritism, but no one will advance without role-play, and, in the end, I don\'t think that favoritism will play that big a role. The new team would be well-trained and everyone would receive rewards for participating in role-play events. Some people might get extra rewards for extraordinarily good role-play--this is where the favoritism might come in--but these wouldn\'t make that much of a difference.
Ok, now back to the original subject....
If you attack my idea, you can\'t expect me not to respond. ;)
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There are 2 things wrong with this system currently, you get \"exp\" for just killing anything and the exp/learning is visible
If the Exp/learning was invisible people would have to actually see from results if they were becoming better in what they were doing, and they couldn\'t just spam all their points in whatever. They\'d have to actually practice it, and be \"better than they were\" for it to increase.
Secondly the Exp should not come from something you already know how to do, it should come from something new, or an improvement. Or Killing something Faster than you ever did before, or a Tougher monster than ever before.
::Edit:: As for grinding to powerlvl, you make monsters Harder/lifethreatening and make so you must actually struggle to kill something to get experience. Also putting them spread out in a field wouldn\'t hurt, and having dynamic spawn locations is good too.
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From all of the ideas Chaos seems best, although not perfect.
All the other ideas are unnatural
\"System message: Your brain has ran out of space, please insert new one to save skill progress data.\" :) (too bad brain isn\'t like harddrive :P )
Or
\"Your ability to learn has been stopped for the duration of this day. Do you want to spent your exp on skills?\" A Character has been fighting all the day and he increases his alchemy, crafting and mining skills.
At finish the ideas not only decrease PL, but also decrease our abilities and RP which use game mechamics at most. It hurts realism and in effect the tales of different content have almost nothing to do with this what has really happened (even these writtings which are supposed to tell whole truth). You simply can\'t describe ooc mess with ic words.
If implement this, why not implement features like:
Feature: You can\'t go upstairs with equiped sword.
Reason: To decrease people running around in towns with equiped weapons.
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How long can a powerleveler really stay interested in a game like this - or any rpg really? What - a few months - obsessive ones will PL for a long time before getting bored with nothing else to do. The fun in these games is the interaction between players, not npc\'s so there isn\'t much to hold them in. I\'d say, let them do their thing - some will exploit - but they won\'t be around much to use them after a while. They are a natural occurance in games, so just let them run their course. Don\'t punish them or make it harder for them, just keep the game RP oriented and the game will always be fun.
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Originally posted by Induane
How long can a powerleveler really stay interested in a game like this - or any rpg really? What - a few months - obsessive ones will PL for a long time before getting bored with nothing else to do. The fun in these games is the interaction between players, not npc\'s so there isn\'t much to hold them in. I\'d say, let them do their thing - some will exploit - but they won\'t be around much to use them after a while. They are a natural occurance in games, so just let them run their course. Don\'t punish them or make it harder for them, just keep the game RP oriented and the game will always be fun.
The problem is that 1) there will always be a fresh supply of PLs to replace those who leave and 2) while they are there, they will flood the economy, playerbased or not, with the PL\'d items and money generated by it. Thus, they do directly hurt everyone by essentially driving inflation.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Right now, a character can potentially max out every skill in the game. Instead, make it so that a character can only have X number of skills at level Y or above. That way, it won\'t be a community of supermen who are masters of all trades.
This will only change the manner of powerleveling, not stop it. Instead of maxing out skills alone people are going to increase their levels so they can max out skills.
Don\'t try to remove powerlevelling, it can\'t be done. Try to improve RPing by making it fun, entertaining and maybe even rewarding.
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what about setting the max on the sum of levels in a group of several skills rather than on a skill ?
I\'m being unclear. let\'s say that instead of having a max for crystal way and a max for dark way (or in adition of that) there would be a max for crystal+dark magic ways. the more you develop one, the less you can develop the other... that would stop people to become super heros.
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I think there need to be people who are exceptional at something or other. How boring would it be to have everyone with approximately the same proficiency in something? ;) I don\'t think such limits are a good idea.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
I think there need to be people who are exceptional at something or other. How boring would it be to have everyone with approximately the same proficiency in something? ;) I don\'t think such limits are a good idea.
Not limits really..... let\'s say you\'re training ten skills. They all get to a certain level.... then 5 of them get past level 20, and all of a sudden the other 5 can\'t get past level 20..... then 3 of them get past level 35, and all of a sudden the other 2 can\'t get past level 35.... then 1 or 2 of them get past level 50, and so on.
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What prevents players from powerleveling to level 20 or 35 or 50? As has been stated before, even if players have -one- skill to \"level\" in, none of these ideas would stop them from enjoying leveling it in a grinding, OOC manner.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
What prevents players from powerleveling to level 20 or 35 or 50? As has been stated before, even if players have -one- skill to \"level\" in, none of these ideas would stop them from enjoying leveling it in a grinding, OOC manner.
... Grinding is not OOC. If someone spends all their time training instead of chatting, that\'s easily justified as in-character.
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I said grinding OOC manner.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
I said grinding OOC manner.
And how is grinding \"OOC manner\" different to grinding \"IC manner\"?
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
All the other ideas are unnatural
\"System message: Your brain has ran out of space, please insert new one to save skill progress data.\" :) (too bad brain isn\'t like harddrive :P )
Or
\"Your ability to learn has been stopped for the duration of this day. Do you want to spent your exp on skills?\" A Character has been fighting all the day and he increases his alchemy, crafting and mining skills.
My idea states that points would be distributed among the skills at the end of the day, depending on what skills you used during it. This way all characters would progress at same speed, only in different things. That\'s much more natural than one character living for 20 hours a day, while some other 2 hours a day. Realism in that? None.
But if you want a system in which progression is dependant on how much time you spend playing, here (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=15599&boardid=11).
Originally posted by tefusang
Originally posted by Draklar
Not by definition:
Powerleveling - Playing the game with focus on finding the fastest and most efficient way to raise in level.
That doesn\'t exist if your progress is same no matter what you do.
You solely would decide what this progress will be aimed for.
People can abuse that too, i.e. staying logged in all night.
You didn\'t read... Points would have same number no matter how long you play.
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Draklar, I\'ve read that, and I don\'t think it solves the problem. People would still \"powerlevel\" as that word is used in this forum, however as well as grinding training exercises, they would also grind to \"relax\". Your whole idea doesn\'t sit well for another reason too... basically, I just don\'t like it. :) I can\'t exactly put my finger on it, but it\'s weird. I\'d rather the mechanics encouraged activity other than training by limmiting training activities. That is to say, you can only do so much training (levelling) per period of time. That\'s a much more tidy way of doing it.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
People would still \"powerlevel\" as that word is used in this forum,
And that is? I don\'t see how power-leveling can be called anything other than looking for holes in system to progreess as fast as possible or to keep bashing monsters.
First isn\'t possible, second would be done as a role-play matter or as a sheer stupidity (note: still not power-leveling). But your idea doesn\'t change the last one in any way. Only makes it less stupid (aka worse).
Originally posted by zanzibar
however as well as grinding training exercises, they would also grind to \"relax\".
...Your idea doesn\'t change that.
Originally posted by zanzibar
Your whole idea doesn\'t sit well for another reason too... basically, I just don\'t like it. :) I can\'t exactly put my finger on it, but it\'s weird. I\'d rather the mechanics encouraged activity other than training by limmiting training activities.
It isn\'t weird, I\'ve seen something similar used in tabletops. There you could see people simply play the quest (not caring about how much they\'ll level), rather than bash monsters to gain experience.
To sum it up:
Not thinking about experience = good.
Same possibilities for people who have a lot of time and those who don\'t = good.
Encouraging to do something besides fighting (like talking or solving quests) = good.
Removing number of people camping spawn points = good.
Removing possibility of power-leveling = good.
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People camp spawn sites for loot more than training.....
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Then remove insanely powerful loot and increase income from crafting..?
What\'s the problem?
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While true hard core Power Leveler will be hard to stop..i agree that specialization can work....
For example a simple way to stop people learning too many skills to really high levels is..
First skill you increase is a base cost...
Each subsequent skill you try to learn will cost more..
Just work out a formula that exponentially increases the cost of learning new skills.
Work out what limit you want.. and from that a simple formula can be derived for skill cost progression.
THis will reflect the REAL LIFE situation as HUMANS can only master sooooo many skills.. (einstein was a briliant physicist, decent musitian, but pretty much inept as a sportsman). tho much better at spelling than i am.
my bro and i play the game... we both have backgroung in math / physics... is the DEV team would like us to propose a simple system to try to reduce PL... we would be happy to try to work it out.
CHeers..
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Originally posted by Draklar
Then remove insanely powerful loot and increase income from crafting..?
What\'s the problem?
That\'s a different issue.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by Draklar
Then remove insanely powerful loot and increase income from crafting..?
What\'s the problem?
That\'s a different issue.
That\'s something that obviously will happen. You\'re just dodging arguments.
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as long as items have so much more effekt in the game than your skills/stats, it won\'t be possible, to stop powergaming.
exp.: Fighting with swords:
a young (sword =3) char got lets say a 54 slash sword from a friend.
he will do more damage than on char (sword=10) with less good weapon ( slash in mid 20th)...
so for the older hcar (without friends) the solution is clear:
he must kill as long monsters, until he finds a 54 slash-sword....this player won\'t care, if it take him 1 oder 15 hours to find that weapon. he\'ll fight until he got it....
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maybe if weapons would resquest a certain level, this could be prevented....
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yeah... weapons....
if a basic weapon like a sword does 2 dmg.... i dont think you should be able to find swd that does more than double it...
even D&D.. +5 long swd... is not even nearly close to being as overpowered as a 400 slash swd...
i mean...
i dont think anything more needs to be said...
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i agree on james.
maybe a standard sword should be around 10 damage...
so there is some room, to sacale for daggers(below) and mace and stuff (above).
the speed of a weapon does not have any effekt at all in my eyes at the moment... this should be more remarkable...
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You could make it that to kill someone you\'d need just 1-3 hits (or if someone\'s lucky, more) and use quality of swords to improve chance of hitting someone. That is of course if he isn\'t wearing plate, or something.
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Originally posted by Draklar
Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by Draklar
Then remove insanely powerful loot and increase income from crafting..?
What\'s the problem?
That\'s a different issue.
That\'s something that obviously will happen. You\'re just dodging arguments.
*sigh* No, it\'s a different issue. Personally, I don\'t think that rogues and gladiators should drop anything except basic or damaged goods unless they\'re dangerous enough to warrant better loot.
Originally posted by Cha0s
Originally posted by zanzibar
i) Not realistic. One does not increase ability in swords by chatting in the tavern.
First, did I say that role-playing didn\'t involve killing things? That was rhetorical: I didn\'t. Second, are you saying that it makes sense that you increase your cartography skill by killing things? Or your Azure magic skill by mining?
Huh? Wha? Cartography skill should advance by practicing cartography.... azure way should advance by practicing azure way.... not by chatting in the tavern or RPing though. These things happen in and around and as a part of RP, but RP is more complex than that and I don\'t think it\'s something so easily measured. Anyway, please don\'t put words in my mouth. It means I have to spend more time correcting you.
Originally posted by SeinTex
what about setting the max on the sum of levels in a group of several skills rather than on a skill ?
I\'m being unclear. let\'s say that instead of having a max for crystal way and a max for dark way (or in adition of that) there would be a max for crystal+dark magic ways. the more you develop one, the less you can develop the other... that would stop people to become super heros.
Ehhh.... I\'d rather people were encouraged to specialize in magic. It would be better if you couldn\'t be a great magician and a great blacksmith or fighter, but to limmit magic skills relative to one another would be counter productive IMO.
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Originally posted by Draklar
You could make it that to kill someone you\'d need just 1-3 hits (or if someone\'s lucky, more) and use quality of swords to improve chance of hitting someone. That is of course if he isn\'t wearing plate, or something.
That\'s interesting. Make better swords deal damage closer to basic weapons, but make them more accurate to make up for it. Also, make them last longer before needing repair. And so on. I like that idea.
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Yes.. it is well known that main difference between high and low quality weapons is their durability. Good quality steel will stay sharper longer.
I think bonuses to hit n dmg from weapons should be fairly negligible.
and ... a person should be able to take a few hits b4 going down, specially if they wearing armour.
NOT every hit is a clean hit ..... some are just a nick, and some loop heads.
Perhaps instead of fixed dmg. your skill/stat/weapon quality should increase the dmg potential.
EG. a person does 1-30 dmg instead of 30 each hit...
and bonuses increase the upper dmg limit...
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yes james brown that would make more sense and is probably already obvious to devs, but also after a point it should start going from x-30 to (x+1)-31 or something so that really strong players get a bonus of hitting for a minimum of like 5 instead of 1.
yes and it would be cool to see messages like \"you strike at somemonster, but miss completely\" or \"and slighlty hit it\" or \"and land a devestating blow\", and that could be related also to where you hit, like now you can hit on hands and torso and head. and of course maybe different weapon types could have different messages like \"sliced a main artery\" or \"crushed them good\" or \"shot through the heart\".
for the twinking thing where a new player can be given a sword of ultimate chaos +1000 dmg, you could have level requirements for weapons and armour, again obvious to devs, so that to use longswords you need lvl 10 sword or something, so then the only thing that could make a lesser skilled player stronger is who can gain the stroner weapon for their level, so whoever can pay for a really nice sword for their level or whoever does the right quest has a chance to be better than the other, but a higher level weapon will always be better than its corresponding lower level weapon.
for example rusty sword (sword lvl any) < sword (sword lvl > 5) < sword of the storm (sword lvl > 10).
this would be like having spells requiring certain levels of skills such as lvl 5 azure and lvl 3 brown for the spell \'summon flatbread\', where you need azure because bread is kinda related to healing and brown because bread is food and food is related to earth. maybe like that 3 pronged sword used for parrying could require both sword and dagger skills.
and also, an example from a highly addictive RPG game series, in Diablo, certain items also needed certain stats, like bows would need agility and strength, and other stuff would need other stats. This could be used for something in Planeshift maybe. or maybe not...
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I say that to prevent powerleveling just make all the monsters impervious to attack to frustrate all PLers to the point of leaving :P.. oh wait.. thats already happening :D.
Sorry had to do it :]
Im sure there is a good reason and I dont mind.. I dont fight much at my old age anyway :).
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Originally posted by Ikarsik
and also, an example from a highly addictive RPG game series, in Diablo, certain items also needed certain stats, like bows would need agility and strength, and other stuff would need other stats. This could be used for something in Planeshift maybe. or maybe not...
I don\'t see how low agility could disallow you to use a bow. All you need is strength, really. Things like agility can only influence your accuracy. Likewise for other items, with exception of some complicated ones, which might need endurance or agility too.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
I say that to prevent powerleveling just make all the monsters impervious to attack to frustrate all PLers to the point of leaving :P.. oh wait.. thats already happening :D.
Sorry had to do it :]
Im sure there is a good reason and I dont mind.. I dont fight much at my old age anyway :).
I just like getting interesting loot. I have 200k, and I only have dagger in the low 30\'s. That\'s plenty high enough for me. And I still spend time in the arena. Not all of us are doing it to max out our characters.