PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: athelas on November 18, 2002, 02:30:47 pm
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What anti-d00d measures will be in Plane-Shift? Here is an essay that may give some ideas.
An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG
(C) Copyright 2000 - Arios Truthseeker - Retired guild leader of the Circle
of Truth
It\'s Friday night. You and a group of close friends have gathered to play in
your favorite MMORPG. After many deaths, false starts, and wrong turns, you
and your party have finally reached the lair of the evil drog beast. You
give the order to buff the group. The sound of protective spells being cast
is accompanied only by the fetid sounding breath of the creature behind the
door. It has taken your group 4 weeks of hard play, tons of cash outlay for
equipment, countless deaths, and hours of corpse recovery to get here.
Knowing this, you can barely contain the excitement you feel at reaching
this goal as your casters announce their readiness one by one. This is it.
This is the moment you\'ve been waiting for. It doesn\'t get any better than
this.
All of a sudden, from behind you, you hear the sound of running footsteps.
You turn to look at what can only be yet another surprise, prepared for
battle, and...
...some player character equipped in armor, you\'ve never seen wielding a
weapon you\'ve never seen, moving faster than you thought possible, rushes
through the door. This person engages the drog, kills it in 2 seconds, loots
a weapon none of you have ever seen before, exclaims \'This suxor!\', then
offers to sell it to your fighter for an outrageous amount of cash.
Congratulations. You\'ve just met a kewl d00d.
Current evolutionary theory suggests that we evolved from voracious life
forms who fed on anything that they could possibly kill, with no regard for
anything other than their own hunger. Nowhere does experimental evidence
support this theory more than observing the feral estrus of greed known as a
\'kewl d00d\' inside MMORPGS.
Aside from the emotional conclusion of the above story (i.e. finding the
human on the other end of the avatar and paddling it\'s behind until it can\'t
scream anymore due to lack of breath), there are many reactions to this type
of player. Some attempt to oppose these creatures wherever they can. Some
others try to get on it\'s good side. A few attempt to rationalize with it,
usually to no avail. Some attempt to harness them into a collection of
creatures known as an \'uberguild\'.
All these reactions are useless.
The main purpose of this essay is to explain the problems and suggest
solutions about kewl d00dism in MMORPGS. Specifically, the best advice is to
treat them just as you would indigenous and dangerous creatures in the
MMORPG you are playing, attempt to avoid them at all costs and if you must
engage do so with caution, skill, and wit.
In order to see why and how this works, we have to understand the background
behind the d00d, why he exists, and what he really wants.
Let\'s start out with some basic concepts.
Determinism
There are various levels of determinism in any human endeavors which can be
briefly categorized like so:
Self-Determinism - In this, the lowest of the deterministic states, the
person is little different than any random biological creature out to
survive. Anything that is even remotely desired by a creature in this state
is taken by force, cunning, or whatever means works. Any creature in this
state will refuse to understand anything that does not relate directly to
the perceived and/or actual needs of the self.
Other-Determinism - The next level up is determinism for self and others. At
this point, the \'creature\' becomes a \'person\'. In this state, basic caring
and consideration (along with politeness) is expressed. This person
determines what is best for themselves AND others, and actually attempts to
understand what others need in this process. Not all others are considered
in this state, merely the ones that the person knows and cares about (e.g.
family, friends, lovers).
Pan-Determinism - This is the highest level of determinism known. The scope
of determinism is everyone, there is no thought towards or of self. All
determinations are made for the \'greater good\'. All people are cared about
relatively equally. Acts taken by such a person are generally in the best
interests of the entire community.
It\'s not hard to see that kewl d00ds are purely self-determined. One is
tempted to consider the lower end of the \'other-determined\' spectrum as
inclusive of d00ds. Unfortunately some d00ds are good at appearing to care
about someone, when in reality this appearance only serves as a tool to
satisfy their immediate needs.
So why is the d00d self-determined and not other-determined?
The profile of the d00d
It\'s very easy to theorize a profile of the kewl d00d in real life. The
typical profile is a human being in the age range of 10 to 17 with upper
middle class to wealthy parents, mental intelligence from mid to extremely
high, and emotional maturity in the fairly low to abysmal range.
Lets face it, our culture has a dismal environment for raising children.
Most kids share a televised reality which distorts the nature of beauty
until it fits a narrow category most people do not fit in. This reality
presents materialism as good and rewarding, and threatens to cast you out of
\'cool\' if you do not wear the latest styles, listen to the trendy depthless
music, or talk with the latest confusing lingo.
Most bright kids are aware of this at some level. Some have the courage to
attempt independence, some are so much smarter than others that others have
a hard time dealing with them, still others simply don\'t watch TV at all.
For this, and other reasons, bright kids tend to be ostracized by the
average intelligence peer, and this ostracization prevents the normal
development of other-determinism.
In simpler terms, when everyone is calling you uncool and teasing you, it\'s
really really hard to care about anyone other than yourself.
The end result of these pressures are not good:
* Self-worth is taken from outside stimulus (forget d00ds, most humans
have this one)
* A desperate need to be accepted by others, so as to influence and
reinforce one\'s self-worth
* A desperate need to gratify the ego, i.e. be perceived as \'better
than\', in hopes that this will achieve the acceptance they need
MMORPGs are an alternate reality. They are literally another world, where
the mistakes and memories of the real world can be rendered a distant
memory. This alternate world has different rules, a different social
structure, and most importantly a method to determine rank (levels and/or
possession of rare items). This ranking system, regardless of whether
meaningless or inaccurate, serves to distinguish players from the others.
High level players wearing cool stuff stand out from the crowd, are looked
up to, are accepted, and are considered \'better-than\' others.
The d00d is overjoyed upon seeing this alternate world. At last he has a
clear method to achieve this acceptance and ego-gratification. If only he
can get some levels and phat l3wt...
In this way, levels and/or equipment are seen as \'needs\' for the avatar.
It\'s something to prove, respect to be earned, and acceptance to be gained.
This is what the d00d perceives as real, never mind that this is not really
how things work. Remember that self-determined creatures will refuse to
understand anything that does not relate directly to the perceived needs of
the self.
Thus the d00d logs into the MMORPG, and the battle to regain his lost
self-worth begins.
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D00d handling 102: For Game Designers
Ok game designers. Lets get real.
Eventually, no matter how well intentioned you are, or how good a designer
you are, your game will have bugs. These can and will be exploited by a
d00d, possibly ruining the game for others.
There is not a damn thing you can do about this. If you can\'t understand
that now, you are doomed.
Long beta test phases work to get rid of more and more, but remember that
you have to incentivize the discovery of bugs so that it is worth more than
the gain you will see in-game from the exploitation of the bug. About the
only thing that works for a d00d in this regard is cash, although creativity
will possibly find other things.
The real problem that occurs when game designers forget that they are
essentially powerless to stop the onslaught of d00dism from finding these
problems is the inevitable war that occurs. Game designers, frustrated at
the d00ds \'ruining the game for others\' (and not about to be out-done in
that endeavor....EQ was a classic example of this) consider themselves at
war with the d00d. They begin nerfing the game or putting draconian rules
into the game and banning people, and this is all done in the name of the
non-d00d. In reality, this hurts the non-d00d even worse. The d00d does not
care, he will simply adapt. The non-d00d who has learned to use what is now
nerfed, experiences the most frustration, and eventually leaves...beset by
d00ds on one side and game designers on the other. No one wins here.
Getting rid of d00ds is not possible either. Given any cool game, and you
want your game to be cool, you can expect d00ds to be there. It\'s a fact of
life, like when you spill sugar on the ground and don\'t clean it up, ants
will appear to clean it for you.
So what to do? You can\'t get rid of them, they are going to find and exploit
all your bugs, and they aren\'t going to tell you what they are. These d00ds
drive away certain types of players who you\'d dearly like to see play, and
all they do is finish the game in some small amount of time
Wake up Designers! What you need is a paradigm shift. You have a gold mine
on your hands and you don\'t even know it. Try considering d00ds as a genetic
algorithm with the express purpose of solving the problem of finding bugs.
Once loosed on your world, they will find all of them...of that you can be
sure. What a deal! Now you have literally thousands of d00ds debugging your
game for you, and they are paying you for the privilege. This kind of
economics is rarely a losing proposition.
So how do you find out that they\'ve found them? Simple. You log everything
that happens. Now I can hear you scream \'that\'s far too much data to keep\'.
I\'m sorry, if you have a large complex world, good software design
principles demand that you log everything that happens. You cannot
accurately debug the world without logging, even cooperative avatars are
likely to miss important details which could be valuable clues to the
problem. The only reliable way you are going to find problems is to log
events. A side benefit to this logging is solving the common problem of \'how
do you know someone died to a bug or died to a legitimate game event\'. A per
player log of where they go and what happens to them, with 48 hour retention
should be good enough.
However, that is not the only thing you log. You also need to log
experience/loot/etc. rates per unit time. Why? Well, you take the fastest 5%
of those and review their logs. Just who is leveling that fast? How? Oh
look, a bug! See?
The same principle applies for anti-social behavior. Logging everything that
was said and done exposes you to the problem from an objective perspective.
Why hire GMs to hide and play thought police? You have logs. Someone is
training mobs to newbies? You can see from where, and this may suggest how
to fix it without banning the d00d. Remember, ban one d00d and another will
figure out the same thing.
This suggests a general principle for d00d handling. Never ever put a
behavioral rule in place when you can fix the real problem in your game. If
you have to put such a rule in place, people are going to violate it. If you
instead make it difficult or impossible for the behavior to cause problems,
people are not going to behave in the way you don\'t like. Again, a paradigm
shift, but one that works.
D00d handling 102: Advanced anti-d00d design strategies
There are many other good design principles which serve to mitigate the
effect d00dism has on your world.
-- NEVER ever design with any naive idea that \'it will take them no less X
amount of time to get to Y level\'. D00ds are genetic algorithms. They will
find any flaws in your implementation of this, and in any complex system
there are going to be flaws. Once they find these flaws, everyone else will
find out and want to level this fast too. Then you will fix this bug and be
the \'evil nerfing game designer\'. Nip this in the bud and don\'t adopt this
mindset. If you are trying to keep people playing, slowing their leveling is
by far the worst implementation of this goal. Keep this mindset out of your
head when you are designing your game.
-- Refrain from designing closed ended games. It\'s not hard to design a
system where people can climb to any level of power they choose, Asheron\'s
Call did it fairly well if you want an example. Let the d00ds far outstrip
the average players, it will keep them out of the mid-range levels so the
real role-players can have fun there. Set it up so mob power scales with
player level. This will give the d00ds something to fight.
-- Unless it is a bug or you are in beta, NEVER nerf abilities. Buffing
monsters is just as balancing, and prevents common player objections. If a
player has been used to an ability, nothing causes them to want to leave
your game more then losing an ability they previously had. The time to nerf
is in beta. Once beta is over, nerfing must be done with extreme discretion.
Avoiding the nerf is not always possible, but 99% of the time it is really
unnecessary.
-- Do not force people to camp to get necessary items. Bilbo did not have to
camp for the One Ring, and neither should our heros.
First off, the mindset that \'not everyone will have this item\' does not
really work if the item is essential to efficient fighting. You may question
\'essential\', but if the item gives significant advantage enough to power the
wielder through several levels or allow them to kill certain previously high
risk mobs easier, it will be considered as \'essential\' by the d00ds. Camping
for something considered \'necessary\' is just like those ants, if something
is good enough d00ds will sit there until the monster drops it.
If you must have rare uber drops, one solution is to make loot drops
entirely random, i.e. do not make the same mob at the same spawn drop
something rarely or even each time. If it can be farmed, it will be. Another
solution works if you are going to put a rare drop on a class of monster:
scatter the spawn points of this monster around the world and make many of
them but not close together. This will at least spread the camping around.
In the opinion of this writer, rare uber items are bad news. While many game
designers see rare uber items as fun, they are the death of any game with
d00ds in it. A rare item that someone has means that most of the other d00ds
do not, and that makes them envious. Envy drives d00ds to camp, kill steal,
and generally be anti-social until they get what they desire. Don\'t do it!
The only time you can get away with that is if there is one and exactly one
of that item in your game universe. Rare items are status and allows the ego
of the d00d gratification when everyone sees them with it. If you are
putting this kind of status in the game, expect the worst infighting to be
over this item.
You might ask what is a substitute for rare uber items? You don\'t need them!
Base 90% of your effectiveness on character skill development, or good
gameplay, and you have a different form of status.
- If you are going to force people to group, make ye no level or skill
restrictions on the grouping, so that all people of all levels and/or skills
can group without penalty (or bonus). This is tough to do but worth it.
Forced groups tends to work against the d00d, but you can\'t achieve the kind
of peer pressure necessary if friends cannot group because their playtimes
are different.
This is also good business too. Friends like to group together, but if one
has been playing for a month and the others haven\'t, it\'s likely that the
first friend will be much higher level than the others. They have all got to
be able to group and make progress commensurate with their level.
In conclusion
D00ds are a fact of MMORPG life. They aren\'t going away, you can\'t spank
them when they need it, and they can make game life hell for you and/or your
game unless you learn to handle them. It is hoped that the topics touched
upon in this essay will assist the intrepid adventurer and the overworked
game designer in handling this genetic phenomenon.
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I didn\'t read it all, because I am not in a reading mood. But, It should be whoever gets to whatever the monster is, should be the one to kill it and get the loot.
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You know. I have to agree with you. Kewl D00ds suck. A lot of games have a manual sign up system where you have to write something roleplayish to get accepted. But heat isn\'t much of a solution. I see the only Way to get rid of the Kewl D00d is to debug the game completely and ban anybody that looks like being a Kewl d00d.
I\'d also like to poin out that the Kewl D00d has a cousin called the PK. These guys often roleplay and stick to therules making them very hard to catch. I once played on an Ultima shard when they were accepted and it sucked. You couldn\'t keep anything safe with them around. They concentrated mainly on mines which made blacksmithy almost impossible. You couldn\'t leave Britain (the other towns were empty, the shard didn\'t promote roleplaying) without being scared of being killed. I eventually quit playing because I was sick of these guys.
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Don\'t forget their very close relative, the Uber(or Power)gamer. Not really as much of a nuiscance (sp?) but can still be annoying :). Also, you get those seemingly massive amounts of people thats can\'t go two words without swearing, and the ones that constantly diss NooBs. And in games with no safe-trade system, the thieves.
I could go on for a while - I\'ve played alot of MMORPGs :D.
hmm... *thinks about making an Encyclopedia or something with information about all the different types of (Idea for title:) People You Don\'t Want To Meet In MMORPGs*
Edit: that last bit
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I started to read it, but fell asleep
...sorry?
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Bravo, to the guy who wrote that. Although it becomes a bit unnecessary to use \"d00d\" so many times, I am sure he got his point across after the 10th \"d00d\"
And the sad thing is, after my travels through the lands of MMORPGs, I have met most of them. The worst I have seen was in Endless Ages. There was this bridge, connecting the blob Island to the rest of the land, and it was long. Every TIME i tried to cross it, or anyone else for that matter, there would be this one guy atanding there, always there, Pking everyone, and just being a real A-hole. And the thing is, he killed so many people, his name was ALWAYS red. And no one could kick his butt. I mean, i tried wacking at him, the best I would do was 10. Plus he lead the most powerfull guild in the game, so yeah, people were upset with him, and yet few could do anything.
The MOST horrible thing, is when those 3 combine into one. The ubber-Pking-d00d! ;(
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Wow, long. But good.
Why not squash the d00ds? As long as the decisions are wise and well thought-out, I don\'t see how it could do any harm to ban a few people. Or perhaps you could, say, take X gold each time d00ds act like d00ds. Or a valuable item of theirs. After a few warnings, of course.
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I didn\'t read that whole damn thing, but the parts I read didn\'t seem to have specific ideas and the conclusion seemed to be that \"d00ds\" were unavoidable. Can someone summarize what it said please?
- Venge
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Ok, this is going to be REALLY short, so here we go:
-d00d, a by product of society, and can not really be blammed for his/her stupidity, your average scenario.
-best be left alone, and ignored, since other solutions like banning have little effect on the dude infestation.
-provides for some \"other\" solutions as to how d00ds can be used for the good of the gamers (somewhere mid point of the second \"section\")
-read the indented parts of the second part (midpoint), if you are a developer, and don\'t want to read the entire thing, since they provide for some ideas as to how the d00d thing can be solved.
And more if you wish, or if you see that I missed something important.
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Yep, that about sums it up.
Re:Veretta Hayes
I would suggest you look at an essay by Richard Bartle (founder of MUDs) called \"HEARTS, CLUBS, DIAMONDS, SPADES: PLAYERS WHO SUIT MUDS.\". http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
Don\'t know if anyone else played Runescape before, but that game is one of the most disturbing memories that I still have in my tiny head. It evolved (AACK! the E-word!) from a close-knit community of mutal respect and all sorts of warm-and-fuzziness to a cold, competitive, and very much rude atmosphere.
Here is my analysis of this process.
-ALmost all games start with a very nice group of people, because through the beta-testing process many d00ds are eliminated, for they cannot survive in a situtation which is as unstable (Oh no! my unfairly earned 46345376436 gold is gone! IMMS!)
-Immortal influence is essential to preserve this state as long of possible. For coding concerns see essay. However, in RS, this state was quickly lost as the immortals refused to listen to complaints, even after a player was bragging on its boards about some cheating program or another. In fact, the imms removed the boards because they could not take the criticism or reports.
-A number of uber-gamers is the first sign of degradation. They find the methods for people to exploit systems, farm exp areas, practice skills ridiculously high, etc.
-Then you have the arrogant people who base their self-worth on 1s and 0s. They completely take over the economy.
Fade to black...
-athelas
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To summarise, for the ones who don\'t have time to read it or simply do not feel like it:
- d00ds are unavoidable, yes, but they can be exploited. Use them to find bugs (they are very good at this) and fix them. Do not implement rules that will prevent people from taking advantage from the bug, as this will encourage them to break them.
Now, to find bugs, athelas recommends logging EVERY EVENT in the game. I quote: \"A per player log of where they go and what happens to them, with 48 hour retention should be good enough. However, that is not the only thing you log. You also need to log experience/loot/etc. rates per unit time. Why? Well, you take the fastest 5% of those and review their logs. Just who is leveling that fast? How? Oh look, a bug! See? \"
This method may seem very effective, but it would be very hard to implement and take time away from game developing.
- banning is unnecessary and essentially does not help to reduce the amount of d00ds (I personally do not agree with this, banning may be a solution, but only if it is extremely necessary)
- rare items encourages d00ds to kill, steal, camp, etc until he can get it. Thus, a solution is not having powerful items with strong effects, but letting skills have a more important role in gameplay.
If you need to create a rare item, make it so that it is dropped randomly by an NPC whose respawn points are very varied. This would scatter the camping.
- No party should have bonus/penalties depending on the skills the characters in it have.
Perhaps I missed some suggestions and comments, but I think this is much shorter and easier to read.
Good posts, athelas. Very interesting.
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So basically in this guy\'s lingo, d00ds are power gamers? Cheaters? Non-roleplayers? I still don\'t get it.
We are certainly going to be interested in exploits as they are found. I think our biggest risk is of macros and bots, not really hacking and cheating. We have some diabolical plans though...
As far as static spawns go, there obviously won\'t be any, so camping should be minimized.
As far as nerfing goes, we can and will change whatever has to be changed to make the fun maximally fun for all involved, and I don\'t see any reason not to nerf abilities if those abilities are shown to be out of whack with others. How to protect yourself from being nerfed? Don\'t play characters with obvious huge advantages over another, or ejoy it while it lasts.
- Venge
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Heh. Just so you know, I did NOT write that essay. Someone else did; read the first post ;)
as a matter of fact, I don\'t even know what nerfing is :rolleyes:
Definition of d00d: (note: this is my definition, not that of the essay) They have qualities of power gamers, yes. However, they also base their self-worth on the game statistics. They generally dominate the system (because of their power-gamer-ness) and are usually arrogant and downright annoying, at least when no imms are around.
After playing RS, and seeing the havoc that the d00ds wreaked there, I\'d hate to see PS go the same way.
Note: def of d00d is my own opinion. MINE, you hear? MINE!
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Ok, I have some counter args
#1: We are already randomizing
#2: We make easy avenues available knowledge to all to exploit
D00dez will compete with newbs
Ie: Its easy to go adventuring of you want
But the HOW is variable by current player dynamic
Thus making d00dism almost vanish as only those folk who talk to folk and interact get ahead
Those that repetively do same thing hurt themselves whilst they do it
But it was a good post
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I thought i posted on this topic earlier?
eh,
I think my post went like this (don\'t be alarmed, it may not sound too intelligent now) :
I didn\'t read the whole thing also, but based on what i did read, and the last post, I think its about looting and experience points. If i\'m correct then:
just let everybody get experience points from shooting an animal, let shots that hit animal while its alive count for exp. and not who kills it and if you get to the body first, you get the loot, problems solved!
if my guess what wrong: Man, you suck! stop posting long ass f*cking essays that only a rocket scientist could decode!
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lol, i crack myself up
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Your copyright is outdated. Doesn\'t really matter with current copyright laws, just have to change a few words.
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Its actually pretty simple :p. and \"nerfing\" is basically getting rid of a skill e.g. If the game started with a \"pickpocket\" skill and found that it was being exploited to get too much stuff off other players, and the devs got rid of it, that would be \"nerfing\" the skill.
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Well if the pickpocketing gets out of hand, we just hire a few extra guards with REALLY big swords!
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I\'ve always interpreted \"nerfing\" to mean either taking it away or just drastically reducing its effectiveness.
For example with pickpocketing, you could eliminate the skill, but more likely it would be nerfed by reducing the probability of its success or making the guards detect it more (making it more dangerous).
- Vengeance
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The essay is interesting, but a bit flawed. In his haste to condemn the varieties of online miscreants he places under the banner of \'d00d\' he oversimplifies things quite a bit, and I think a number of his suggestions would be ineffectual or even counterproductive! He more or less understands the nature of these folks, but misses the subtleties of their behavior and how it affects gameplay in an MMORPG.
A quick definition of terms would be a good start.
His #1 category of \'d00d\' appears to be an asocial power gamer, someone who engages in asocial or even antisocial behavior in his singleminded quest for advancement. A better term, borrowed from the pen and paper RPG world, would be \'munchkin.\' For them, the game is an elaborate power fantasy, a chance to be the strongest and most admired, and the essayist has a good grasp of this. (When the GM says \'This campaign will center on politics and intrigue in the courts of 17th century Italy\' a munchkin says \'OOH! OOH! I wanna be a NINJA!\')
This is different from the grief player, who is either bored or angry and decides to vent his frustration by ruining other people\'s good time. I once encountered a pair of kids on a UO server who were upset -- someone nice had given them a dog in the game, but they hadn\'t fed it properly and it went feral. Of course, a grief player heard the plight of these kids, and promptly killed their dog. >:(
These types are fortunately rarer than the others, especially in games that have PK-capable player guards, or free PvP. Banning is best used only on the habitual grief player.
Then we have the twinker - generally a munchkin who has achieved his desired state of power and wealth, he promptly unbalances the game by generously giving valuable items to newbies. A player whose hard-built character gets passed by a first-day player wielding a +37 Sword of Maiming can blame a twinker. Newbies killed by hardcore PvP munchkins also have the twinker to blame - without him, newbies don\'t carry anything worth taking. (Grief players may PK a newbie, but that\'s a symptom of a different problem)
Twinkers are difficult to smack, since sharing is, um, nice. In a way, they aren\'t a social problem, but an economic one. They appear mostly after a breakdown of the economy - which happens because you have gold and items continually pouring into it with no drain. All this wealth flows downhill, into the pockets of the hoarder, who suddenly can\'t think of anything to do with it but give it away. I\'m short on ideas for this one, except build a viable economy somehow. :D
Back to the essay! He\'s right that attempting to curb antisocial behavior with strict rules and \'thought police\' is ineffective and damaging to the overall game. It\'s a lot like writing a constitution for a government - governments that force people to behave according to ideology are almost universally unpopular. The only way to make a government work is to build it with an eye to natural law. I.E., you /know/ there will be bad people who will try to abuse power, so you have to /plan/ for that in your system. An MMORPG is not too different, except that you can control the physics, economics, and other stuff ending in ics. It\'s when you get to thinking you can actively dictate human nature that you get into real trouble!
Essentially, the more rules you apply, the worse things get - grief players thrive in no-pvp games because the rules designed to stop naughty PKs also prevent good players from lynching the jerk who arrives at the wedding, strips naked and tells the bridesmaid \'1 H4V3 PH47 L3W7 N MY L01NCL0TH! W4N7 2 F33L?\'
Instead of trying to ban antisocial behavior after the fact, good game design can discourage it in an unobtrusive manner, removing much of the reward, and leaving the good players\' freedom intact. (Hopefully including their freedom to deal with antisocial jerks without waiting for an overtaxed staff to get around to it.)
The basic problem for MMORPGs lies in one of the common mechanisms of most computer-based RPGs -- the advancement system itself. Most CRPGS, and nearly all MMORPGS use a system whereby skills are improved through use. This differs from most pen & paper RPGS, but works out fairly well in CRPGS. It\'s a highly addictive stimulus+response=gain loop for one - both casinos and Space Invaders use this. The problem in using it for an MMORPG is that it rewards people, not for contributing anything useful to the gaming environment, but for their capacity to tolerate tedious and repetitive behavior. (!)
What this boils down to is that the optimal player under this system is the person with the most idle time on his hands. Usually someone around 13-17 years old who\'s been given his own computer, has no job and who doesn\'t get invited to parties or social gatherings. (LOL) An adult player who works hard and doesn\'t get a nice long summer vacation will never match the young unpopular kid for raw free time, and thus will find himself outpaced at every turn, which discourages him. This means the obnoxious kid will thrive, and everyone else will be left behind.
Not every game takes this system, mind you -- for example, an MMORPG called Underlight defeats this problem by replacing the standard click-for-skill system with a medieval-styled apprenticeship system. To build your skills, you train with a master, which means you must rely on the other players. If you\'ve been a jerk, you get nowhere. In addition, new skills are given by the staff to players who have done the most for the game, which encourages players to interact, roleplay, and cooperate. It works well and makes Underlight popular with the hardcore rp crowd, especially those with pen and paper backgrounds.
(Incidentally, this renders macros and bots useless for all but innocuous tasks. :) )
Similarly, bugs/exploits may be reduced in their severity with a good design. The Orwellian \'log everything everywhere\' route need not be taken, though it sounds helpful for things like resolving disputes.
One design principle that applies easily is that if you have a source of some commodity that you don\'t want people to use, placing a simple rule sanction on it is not as good as eliminating the value of that resource in the first place. In other words, poison the well and noone will drink from it.
An example: take the fairy-tale staple of \'changeling\' or \'faery gold\' and apply it to those exploiting munchkins. You deliberately add a \'bug\' whereby if Darkblood Blackmage the n00bk1LL4h puts 10 gold under a rock and his partner Bloodmage Blackshadow the Ub3r-1337 picks it up while Darkblood hits the tree with a herring, there will be 20 gold under the rock. Bloodmage says \'w00t!\' and they begin multiplying their money. HOWEVER, two or three days later they go to check their ph3t bank account and find that all their gold has turned into a big pile of dung. They say \'WTF\' and another player says \'Did you not read the words of the elders when you entered the world? They said that there are many paths to power and wealth, but only the fool chooses the short and easy road, heedless of its perils.\'
Of course, this particular example would require a lot of planning to close its loopholes, like passing the changeling gold to someone else, using it to buy expensive items from NPCS or other PCs, etc. (Though the possible solutions that come to mind open up some interesting side effects) The underlying concept can be implemented in a myriad of ways, though, and \'Cursed cheats\' are a good way to discourage people from using any bugs they might find, for fear that it might be a trick by the cruel and capricious gods. :)
The essayist\'s advocation of unlimited level/skill advancement is not a good idea, IMO. It\'s unnecessary and unrealistic, a leftover from D&D that causes nearly all the difficulties related to PvP combat and the like. To illustrate, i\'ll use the classic example of a D&D Dungeon Master and an Anti-D&D Dungeon Master:
Player d00d: \'I tell the peasants that I am the Dark Knight, Bloodshadow Deathdark the Oh-So-Menacing, and that they will give me all their gold and daughters or I will slay them with my +45 Vorpal Sword of Really Nasty Things.\'
First, the D&D DM\'s response: \'They refuse. *various rolls* You kill 63 of the level 1 peasants, the remainder flee into the hills never to be seen again.\'
Just replace the peasants with the essayist\'s \'mid-range average players\' and swap the Dark Knight for The General\'s little portrait entitled \'D00d Standing on Bridge\', and you see why unlimited advancement totally sVx0r5. You should never pin your game on the hope that players *won\'t* be mean to one another. Encouraging them to be nice is a good idea. Expecting them to be nice is a recipe for disaster.
Now in contrast, an anti-D&D DM: \'They refuse. Pressing you back by sheer force of numbers, they pin you down and begin loosening your armor. One of them produces a dagger and slips it under your breastplate and into your black heart. You are DEAD.\' (Insert evil grin)
It might be possible to separate combat with monsters from combat with PCs (though probably it would be too complex to be worthwhile) so that unlimited advancement would be possible in monster combat, but most of the advantages would be negligible in PvP, so that one skilled and well-equipped player would hesitate before fighting more than two unskilled poorly-equipped ones, and one-hit slaughters would be next to impossible.
Under such a system, the grief player at the wedding would be lynched, the guy on the bridge would be taken out, bands of (hopefully rp) highwaymen could operate successfully only in the wilderness, and paladins could gather together to track and eliminate said bands.
It wouldn\'t be Happy Care-Bear Land where nobody ever fought, tra-la!, but with PC and NPC guards, the towns and roads could be fairly safe. Bad players could do bad things, and more importantly, evil players could do evil things, but it would be reined in by the game design and by the fact that other players wouldn\'t have to put up with it.
The tone of the game then depends on the community as a whole, and if the game doesn\'t reward people for antisocial behavior and for simply having more free time than others, the quality of the community should remain relatively high. Most MMORPGS start out with a good community, as athelas noted, but the design of the game pushes the wrong way, and encourages the bad players, which leads to the cycle of rule sanctions & complaints which leads to players leaving in disgust, decimating the original community.
.. Um. Just a thought. LOL.
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Damn! Wish i could say things like that.
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I only read half
but based on what i did read, I don\'t think your breakdown of the dood essay wasn\'t much different except that you didn\'t hastily add your dislike of the different types of misguided players. basicly you just were saying the same stuff, but then again i only read half
god damn my low attention span! :)
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Hands down one of the best posts ever on this board, Mantar. Have you ever considered joining our Rules team? *beg*beg* :-)
Very insightful, well written, and thought through from a designer\'s rather than player\'s point of view, which is rare.
Thanks.
- Vengeance
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Ahh, I loved your awesome post! It was so very insightful, and well put. If only I had your skills in writing, I might get a better grade in English...
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Wow, I\'ll second Vengence\'s request Mantar. Very nicely done.
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i read all the essay, and i say \'bravo\'
it contains all good advices for designers to minimize \"bad players effect\"
I think that Planeshift\'s designers should read it. It would make it one of best MMORPGs ever.
EDIT: I didn\'t read mantar\'s post. I think that planeshift\'s designers should read it after the essay, then the paper adviced earlier( http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm ). I think all these texts contain all the elements to make the best MMORPG ever, which would finally gather all style of MMORPGs players in a game they all like. That would be fun that the best MMORPG is the only one totally free ^^6
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well, i\'ll try and be less theoretic now... i\'ll just be hypothesysing now, since i haven\'t played any MMORPG as of yet (lack of money). but what might help:
- reduce the power of guilds. a very negative experience i had from Tibia (a german sorta MMORPG; 2D and free :)) is that the first interaction with another player i had was a lowbie/midbie/highbie (no matter, anyone was better than me at that point) cornering me and putting through the message \'give me all you got or you\'re kill-on-sight\' for my guild. reducing guilds to interest organisations, and/or having them declare a purpose which would be made public; the membership of a guild should be easily determined in-game, and it should be possible to issue complaints against a guild-member who violates it\'s mentality. also, the founding of guild should be limited and allowed only to players who have displayed that they are responsible and possibly good roleplayers (e.g. not-d00ds). it would be a Care Bear (very nice term, hope the one who used it before - i have an abysmal memory - will forgive me this display of plagioatorism) inducing factor, but it would prevent a d00d-or-die society, where people not in a uberman controlled guild would be at a risk of being opressed. maybe not realistic, but relieves quite some tension from the game\'s atmosphere.
- nclude politics in the game. creating higher-level player structures, to a certain measure moderated by \'authorities\' - approved supervisors or someone of that sort, that stand even above guilds, would allow some control over the player\'s interests. making let\'s say a member of the city council have more real power than the d00d with the vorpal sword would significantly reduce the games attractiveness to them and consequently drive them away. i imagine these organisations as for example city levels with an somewhat independent administration, or the job-groups (permanently sacking an asocial player from the job is quite a logical consequence for unruly actions).
- a decent law system should be in place (this might be redundant, since it is possible the developers already have something similar in mind; in that case, ignore this point on the list). this might be connected to the previous point. make a city guard that alhough not immortal and one shot slayers, would be ultimately impossible to defeat. this would require scaling the guards to the offenders level, should he be more powerful than they are, but with a minimal power level set quite high to prevent weaker players from trying anything funny; the scaling should be to such a measure that the player would be available to kill one, two or even several of the guards, but it only as many as necessary to flee the city. this would require careful planning of the placing of the guards, but the system could be very functional. this could be connected with a player-run jurisdiction, with characters being judges and so on for those laws, the violation of which that would be too complicated to be adressed by the game system itself. they would have the competences to administer punishment such as fines, temporary banning, or banishment from a city (to this issue: it should be in that case absolutely impossible to penetrate the city gates violently - spawning of guardsmen would be a viable solution). also, a system should be implemented which would prevent the offender from escaping when arrested (handucuffing and the like - no speculations should be allowed as to the possibility of breaking them - noone can do that IRL, and if we admit that the avatars can be superhumanly strong, so can the material used to make the cuffs). so, to summarize things: the system should work in a way as to bang one simple rule through the thickest of skulls - you do something bad, and you WILL face consequences, period.
- limiting PvP combat is viable, although probably unacceptable for the sake of the desired facsimile realism of a MMORPG. limiting it to arenas or a level span rule would be too much. but berserking should be highly frowned upon, and players should be encouraged to for example create groups to kill a berserking d00d; a kill/loot/city banish punishment is hopefully severe enough to discourage anyone from killing on sight. the functionality of this system would be significantly reinforced by the \'skills, not uber-items\' and \'limited advancement\' policies.
- civilisation should be in all ways important. all of the more important parts of the game world, e.g. those with an increased player concentration, shuld be controlled by a legal system and equipped with guards. a player who is a persona non grata in any and all cities in the game, after being finally hunted down, should have little else to do than run around naked, without equipment around the wilderness areas, killing monsters which wouldn\'t drop anything of interest to someone who doesn\'t have access to a shop od a place where to process the given material (this time, i am absolutely certain that the developers are implementing this system, but nontheless, i shall post this: most crafts and jobs should be impossible to perform in the wilderness, e.g. outside of the aforementioned cities/villages/etc. the monsters in wilderness areas should in any but the most rare cases drop finished items, or even money, for that purpose, raw processable materials would be quite enough as the material reward - useless, nonetheless of value to a player with the resources of a city at his disposal; i think this adds a very functional piece of realism)
- to expand on the previous issue: there should be monster with hoards of rare items (although not quite as powerful to be considered uber-artifacts), but they should be impossible to be deferated individually. that would prevent non-social people from getting any excitement from the game after reaching a certain level of power (a very high one, needless to say; penetrating into social structures does take some time, until then, it should be perfectly possible to go more-or-less solo)
- make magical items very rare, even with the conditions of the skill-focus system. skills should provide the player with at least equal power. it should be possible to kill a twinked-to-oblivion newbie when you know the right way to use the skills they\'ve got. this might be possible to implement because a drastic modification of the combat system would be needed. two \'classes\' of magical items could be included: simple ones, quite common, with a very limited bonus for the player, to the extent of providing the decisive edge in equal battles, or compensating for a minor weakness the player in error commited during advancement. these could be sommonly available or even manufacturable, but the advantages a player equipped fully with such items would get shouldn\'t surpass the ones he would get by gaining a few levels (or maybe even one, depending on how much a \'level\' would mean in powrer terms). widely available should in no way mean widely affordable, and even the manufacture would require going to certain ends to get the necessary components. the higher level items (of artifact class) should give a more significant amount of power, but there should be a different limitation, like possibly the limit of one artifact per player, a few of one in the game altogether, and the impossibility to sell them or give them away
- ad skills more powerful than items. the gain of skills should be done in a different way that \'kill enough and you get skill points\', or \'click long enough and you\'ll advance\'. these two systems shouldn\'t be eliminated completely, but severely downgraded. skill points are a very functional system, but spending them in some advancement screen isn\'t exactly realistic, or helpful. it should either be limited to a certainsm level in a skill, after which the player would have to join an organisation (i can\'t personally imagine someone who kills puppies and such would be taught crystal magic for example) or find a mentor NPC; or even both, with players mentoring other organisation members (but this might on the other hand turn out to be very frustrating). or as a compromise, being mentored would make skill advancement easier (in terms of skill-point cost) than teaching yourself. performing a skill to advance it shouldn\'t be eliminated, but should be a secondary way of advancing a skill. it also shouldn\'t work like \'use the skill x times and you advance\'. a certain level of randomness should be included: the use of a skill would instead increase the probability of the skill advancing, with a certain maximum probability (10% or even less). the probability would be checked against after each such use of the skill (D&D d% style), adn reset back to zero after gaining a skill point in this fashion. the probability increase would be very small, and inversely proportionate to the current skill level and skill difficulty (normal advancemenmt cost). this would make the skill advancement by using seem like a sort of a christmas present - e.g. it would make a player happy (\'Wee, I got a free level in swords!\'), but it would in no case be a way of gainig significant power per se
also, a few reactions to the previous posts: making the character advance primarily thanks to socializing would limit the game\'s audience, which would be quite undesirable due to the current state of the game (e.g. quite impossible to advertise seriously; no offense, i admire the developers for undergoing such a challenge). everyone enjoys a bit of good\'ole hack\'n\'slash fun once in a while, and i wouldn\'t want to see the project end up limited for a few \'Planeshift geeks\' who find unlimited amusement in chopping lumber, and figuring what to say to an NPC to get a quest clue over and over. the game has the best chance of success if it will provide entertainment for almost anybody (\'cept d00ds, grief players and power-gamers)
Oof, kudos to the one who reads the whole of this, and i hope i didn\'t insult anyone\'s intelligence for advising things which are obvious to someone with at last minimum experience in MMORPGs, which i lack. Most of what i have put in this post comes form experience in MUDs, where to the contrary i have encountered almost none of the problems that have benn described in previous posts in this thread; i merely modified them with consideration of the way i think MMORPGs work
Irago, the eternal newbie
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I think, that the best counter measure for \"d00ds\" is to have a very strong party/guild base. Namely, the uber monster mentioned in the essay shouldn\'t be killable by the d00d. If there are big monsters in PS, then they should be designed to have varying abilities. Give it some spell resistance, some armor, etc. This will make it difficult for an uber-fighter, or an uber-mage to come along and single handedly kill it. You\'ll probably need a little of everything to kill it. I belive it was in a separate thread, but someone mentioned that you\'ll need a rogue to scout ahead, and then plan your tactics, have the mage buff, the healer gets ready, and the fighter tanks. Unfortunately this sounds a lot like the repetative party-camp-kill-loot experience I disliked about EQ, but it has to be done to curb the ammount of power gaming d00ds.
As for guilds, I think they would be very valuable to keeping d00ds down. Clearly, a d00d wont pick a fight with someone if they know they\'re a member of a decent guild. The guild will come after them. Also, trade guilds are essential. Lets say a d00d is irritating to some weapon dealer that is involved in a smithy guild. Word goes out about this, and the d00d is blacklisted from all the merchants in this guild, and probably others as well.
Basically, by making the game more community based, the anti-social d00ds will eliminate themselves.
P.S. wow, nice long posts. Very insightful though Athelas and Mantar. Keep up the good work!
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Still dont get it....Explain in simple language
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irago, I completely dissagree with the \"lower\" the guild power part of your post. First of all, what about the already established guilds, that have a good amount of members. If guild establishment were to get limited, some of the current guilds would \"dissapear\" just due to lack of members, not to say that they are bad guilds. I think the part about easy identification will be implemented. And since PK is not available, well, there needs to be no worries about \"kill you on site if no money is given\" Also, the main purpose of a guild right now, as I understand this, is to provide for a sense of a mini community within the game, to make for a small economy, a feudal system if you will, where the guild is large enough to nake it\'s own armor, potions, and weapons. Also, you can get a cool castle, and a bunch of other guild options, like quests, and wars.
As for the rest of your post, I have no real opinion, since it was fairly long, please forgive me if I missed something. :O
*rubs his hands in excitement* Can\'t wait till the \"possay\" is all together....we can go to war...against those.....ah...well, someone is bound to do something.....eventually.
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Very nice-- and long-- essay!
I gotta learn to write like that. (or rather, type)
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okay, i admit the guild power downgrape was a bit too much, the system is too well started to be changed, drop that idea. but i wish to elaborate a bit on the second part of that: a stable, developer created system of \"uber-guilds\" should be put in place to avoid confusion for new players as of where to belong. these \"uber-guilds\" (stressing the quotes, i can\'t come up with a better name\" should be either preset trader associations, where for example anyone who would want to blacksmith wouls have to join to learn the craft and peruse the smithies (at least in one city, although some contact could be established between the blacksmiths of each community to make blacklisting possible). anyone on a blacklist would have little to no way of getting any weapons or armor, or repairing those he already has (item deterioration should be a must to drain money from the system, and would suit this well; once again, i doubt the developers are planning to make everything of hyperindentable steel, so i\'m prolly reiterating). that, and of course geographical communities (cities, and nearby villages). these associations should be rather easy to join, the acceptation being more-or-less a formality, although charge should be given to players and they should be encouraged to come up with whatever fancy rituals, oaths, or (simple!) tests to let new people in. of course the downside could be the above-average hand-to-hand combat system (nice touch with the three schools and all, my respect to the developers), but then again, i could very well imagine let\'s say monastic orders of Argan, Esteria, and wosshisnameagain, who would keep their arts a secret form non-members (each teaching melee and their appropriate school). also the whole point of the system would be that the players could take absolutely nothing for granted (skill advancement, shopping or anything); a lot of things would be sort of privileges, although easy to gain, when lost, very tough to regain. i imagine blacklisting/banishing being a more usual, easy to administer (without intervention of the game administrators), and far more annoying punishment than the traditional banning.
the system that was described from everquest might be annoying, but it is (to the matter this can be said about fantasy themed games) realistic. no matter how hard you train or how well-made (i want to point back to the idea of not particularly strong enchantments on most - 95% or more - items) your armor is, a dragon\'s flame breath that could crisp-fry an elephant WILL hurt you without magical assistance. and as for spell casters, they will be a little frailer, and the dragon has several centuries of life experience, tons of muscle weight, and severals tens of kilograms of brain matter, hrak innate magical power to be defeated by spells one humanoid can muster alone. the eventual scaling of monster power should be based on the average level or power rating in the group attacking him, or should rise with each additional member (not the full amount as if a single enemy of the power of the group together of course), so a monster will still be a challenge, even should a LOT of people group to defeat him.
also, i\'ve come up with an ingenious (and prolly revolutionary, i never seen it anywhere before, excuse and correct me if i\'m wrong) idea: let\'s divide skill advancement in two independent parts - theory and practice. theory would be gained by being mentored (the usual skill point payment at a mentor, or (gads!) at level advancement), but would per se be useless, and then the traditional clickalot-to-advance (although of course, only those uses of the skill that would make actual sense - that deal/heal damage, or have any tangible effect would count) would increase the practice component, which would actually make the skill better, give access to new abilities and the usual. the theory component would determine the cap to which the skill can be practiced. of course, the practicing should be sensibly faster than in the system i described before, of course.
Irago, god how i hate people using numbers, weird characters, or only sensible dangerously sounding english words in their in-game names, not to mention multiple capitals in one...
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a great way we\'ve found out to crush k00l d00wds on avlis (http://www.avlis.org) is to have DMs stomp them flat.
k00l d00wd going out of character (OOC)? DM using the NWN dungeon master client gives \'em a -100 XP cookie. k00l d00wd complains about it? -1 lvl them. They keep bitching? Strip \'em of of all their l33t items. Eventually they get the picture and go find some other game/server to bust up.
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Ugh! I want to maim and kill said kewl d00ds.. and their PK cousin.. They were the reason every piece of my equipment went missing when I played conquer online, and thus I couldn\'t play anymore. :|
Anyways, I play dungeons and Dragons occasionally. Getting ready to DM a campaign online, and people who play under my games know I hate idiots. They try to pull the munchkin act and they die for no reason; just because I can be a grouchy little woman when an idiot is ruining it for other people. :)
Dont ask me what I would do to botters, pk nuts and kewl d00ds if I ran a game.. The only answer is \"It isn\'t pretty.\"
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My view on \"dewds\" \"greifers\" and the BAD \"pk cousin\" (PK can be a very good and exciting thing... however the \"bi*** code\" is the worst idea since the invention of arsonic.. also \"OMG joo gots PWNDED! lolol\" isn\'t gaming at all) is hate.. i don\'t mean hate like \"aww the dewds are here this sucks :(\" i mean H A T E.. like they cannot undergo enough misery in my opinion.. hell if it exsisted would be getting off easy >:( for them..
now guilds are ok.. but it has been proposed that guilds \"own\" cities and decide what happens in them and who can use what.. NO no no.. that is just the lazy way of avoiding putting a political system in games even in medieval times guilds wheren\'t much more then small fraternities of tradesmen sharing ideas and resources, therefore they couldn\'t \"rule\" anything (in my opinion combat types can\'t start guilds as \"Guild: Noun
1. An association of persons of the same trade or pursuits, formed to protect mutual interests and maintain standards.
2. A similar association, as of merchants or artisans, in medieval times.\" But then again combats start groups that where \"Clans\" so why create something of a different name.. just complicates things)
Therefore A Government system is the Ultimant Anti-\"D00d\" Panacea (absolute cure) as even a \"lowly\" citizen if sociable popular and propses good ideas can be elected mayor (or one of the town council) and is BAM ten times as powerful as a \"dewd\" or \"griefer\" who spent weeks building his \"OMG l33t swod sk1llz\" as he can decree \"Sir PWNS-ALOT has hereby been banned from Hydlaa.. he loses all use of shops, Saftey, Banking and Creatures in this town.. should he return he will be openly killable and exacuted on site\"
A sector \"govanor\" or \"senate member\" could outcast over all the area they control.. if a griefer/dewd gets enough complaints the Senate (we don\'t want just ONE head ruler thats asking for trouble) gets involved.. the \"dewd\" can still play naturaly.. just can use anything.. and is openly killable EVERYWHERE by EVERYBODY.. can\'t buy anything, store anything and can\'t do anything worth anything.. guess it \"sux0rs t0 b hem!\".
Naturally there could be failsafes like impeachment or rebellion if a mayor or official gets eleceted then goes \"AWOL\" ostrisizing anybody who talks anything he doesn\'t like or just because he feels like it (no matter how powerful one might be.. One hundred are stronger then he!),
Also Guilds Should Give Exp to all the members within.. \"You Have REcieved # exp from your guild\" But not RAW exp.. if you are a warrior in a guild of miners then \"You Have Recieved 20 Mining Exp From Your Guild\" and so on... or a generic trade guild will have like \"You Recieved 10 Alchemy Exp 15 Lumberjack Exp 40 Masonry Exp\" as thats what the members are leveling so you get some of the exp through shared ideas of the guild (you would only get Theoretical Exp.. though) so if you where in a mismatched guild you wouldn\'t learn much of what you want to learn.. but if you wanted to take up smithing but you where a warrior then that would work well.. the primise is \"If i am a potter.. but am around a lumberjack long enough.. i will learn a good deal about lumberjacking\"
It also needs to be tradesmen are \"Equal But Different\" then warriors, this game looks like it will pull it off nicely.. but most games do not: As in the warriors get all those IMPOSSIBLE drops (come on a does a water demon really have \"OMG fire +300 Sword of one hit kill\"? or does a wright really have 300 gold coins to drop? the answer to both is no)
once a harmony in Government, Tradesmen, Warrior, Mage And Healer is struck The \"dewd\"-ism will basicaly kill itself.. the more it resists the ingrown changes the more it hurts itself.. (like trying to wiggle out of a thorn bush.. the more you struggle the worse you make it for yourself) also with government.. admins will need to involed INFINANTLY less.. as thats what the government is for ;)
EDIT: However after thought.. a goverment couldn\'t stand as if it was assurpable by admins (I.E. not that admins wouldn\'t have a say.. as their says does matter A LOT (to the average player).. but the government would be the chosen leaders (and above the law as its trusted officials would be the law. if they break laws they get impeached)of the people.. and without people.. admins are just people who own a server with a big sandbox to play in by themselves ;).) As such situaltions can arise \"Mayor has Banished from town! Admin has unbanished from town!\" \"\" Also think how much ever changing gameplay would be added that way :D election over time would add excitment and get rid of the ahem \"problem\" difined in this thread (killing two birds.. got a helpful idea in and gave a solution for making this one of the last bastions of true RP :D)
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While i agree with some points i believe most of it is flawed. I will not be writing my dissertation tonight so it will be short and generalized. A healthy gaming community needs a variety of playing style playing the game. A game needs hardcore RPers for it to feel real. Why does you feel like you are immersed into the game? Thank the Hardcore RPers. A game need Powergamers to advance the game. Do you think you would get a \'Sword of Slaying +30\' from discussing the political system of your guild? No, you get it from a player playing to be the best and advancing the content. A game also need a cheater/exploiter. These are most helpful when they are either caught or report the cheat/exploit. Without these and possibly a few more playing styles i am sure the community and the game would become stagnant.
I will agree no community needs griefers but should be prepared for such threats. I doubt a committee would be needed because it will not work. Do you really believe a person will stay around while someone holds senate? sorry but they won\'t. Their main objective is to ruin your fun. Once they accomplish that they leave. I believe a /kick or /ban from a GM would work just fine and be more effective.
I also dislike people who talk in \'l337 sp34k\'. However i allow no one to ruin my time online so i just ignore it. I recommend people to do the same. (/ignore is your friend)
I also play to so I have fun. I don\'t play so other people can have fun.
anyways..that is my opinion and thoughts on a gaming community.
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what.. is everyone posting essays so the devs might pay attention to them? lol as far i can think of, basically we\'ll always have gm\'s and they\'ll be on as much as poss, so , they can monitor the situ and if its decided that someone is drastically spoiling the game for others, they take action further... simple eh
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well the \"power leveler\" is needed kind of like we need death... if we didn\'t have it the world would be packed.. the power leveler does in a way progress the game.. but if anybody wants to compete.. they have to play the game at the \"finish quest! level up! finish quest! level up!\" track mind that kind of robs some of the fun of quests during the \"fresh and new\" phase of your gameply experience...
also i have found that always and forever a gamer with well intentions that hits the \"high levels\" can act more \"d00d and l33t\" then the lower levels.. I.E.
\"Hello! Hey... Um could you not block the path to the mine please? No, Why? Because i can i block it and i am teh high lvl you can\'t stop me lolololol\" and other similar scenarios... not saying this happens all the time.. just happens.. however a well implemented government could \"Miner: Oh Senator i was being blocked out by the mines.. think you could do anything about that? Senator: Sure.. thats what i ran my campain on remember!\" \"Senator: Sir Commence to unblock the mine at once! No i am high lvl you can\'t stop m..... OMG my l33t l3wt!! Next time play a little more civilized\"
again not that its just a high lvl combat problem (high level trademen do the same thing but differently using their \"l3t trad3s\") and it doesn\'t happen often either.. but it only takes one like that to make a large area around them not very fun..
That is why forced PK in games is good and evil.. it causes a \"l33t mentality\" to spread (combats feel full of themselves as they can kill and destroy... lots of \"i will own joo!\" \"no i will own joo! noob lololol\" talk. i once heard a person call it \"hairy knuckle syndrome\" :P) But good in that it lets to good players who respect others \"Lynch\" The bad people as well.. but then again as i stated the forced pk can make more bads to kill XD...
Which leads to an interesting combat tweak.. Have an EXTREME mob defence penalty (maybe even an attack penalty.. you can\'t swing that 7 foot \"l33t sword of +12 doom if you don\'t have 7 feet to swing).. becuase come on you could have \"Sir Mighty Paladin Guy\" in all the best armour and weapons.. but just get 5 (or less) tradesmen with daggers and leather shirts.. and yes he may kill one or two maybe even three if hes very good.. but while he is doing that the other two or three have slipped around him and hit his spine, heart, brain etc. (as stated in an earlier post) multi combat has for to long been treated like one-on-one just with more people.. when it isn\'t
As for too long if you don\'t like somebody terrorising an area you had to go to an admin who would place \"thought police\" and \"nerfs\" in place.. when really why not handle it like the time period would? Get a riot and lynch the fool (riots have killed kings and armies before {French Revolution anybody?} so don\'t says its \"un-fair to the combat guy\")
EDIT: admins don\'t have to get involed in every squabble(and shouldn\'t have to).. this frees them up to do other more productive things (i have been an GM and would have loved it if i didn\'t have to basicaly \"babysit\" the whole game) now of corse admins are VERY much needed.. even these ideas can only go so far.. i was just suggesting adding the gratification of letting you and some friend dish out the justice yourselfs on the spot.. not having the only way be to \"tattle\" to an admin.. people feel better and admins feel better (as they are not having to handle every minor squabble)
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This would in some wat describe the way i play the game. but i will never irritate other players with my \"powers\" if i was powerful in the game.
i am a leveler, i like to level up alot and one of my main goals when playing a game like this is to become one of the most powerful players in the world. its fun for me to try, its fun to be powerful, becouse you are kind of elite then.
I know of many people that play the game that way.
they don\'t go stealing items, or killing other players. they just enjoy the game in my own way.
I will sometimes do a quest with a group of friends and will always join a guild. but most of the time i enjoy questing and leveling solo.
An mmorpg that forces group playing is not one i would like to play, becouse i kind of like the loner style.
also players like me add to the realism of the game, in mythical universes there are always strong loners, like the bear shapeshifter in tolkiens \"the hobbit\", named Beorn.
so the problem to me does not lie with power gamers with high levels, but those that use their high levels to annoy other players.
So levelers are not the same as d00ds
and a leveler does not get his power by cheating or exploiting, but trough hard work training and leveling his character.
be sure that when restricing noobs in the game you don\'t hurt the levelers to.
greets,
Dimitri
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which is a very good thing.. and i am also against forced group play in combat.. but then again SOME enemies will have to be defeated by a group (but isn\'t that even more cool? \"I was in the first battle of dragons lance when the great dragon Malador ShadowWing fell!\")
Also i realize power levelers are not evil... just all that \"power\" sometimes taints.. i salute the high level who goes around helping instead of abusing the level they have gained (which in the end, people surely helped a person get to where they are.. either through answering questions or giving items or gold to get one started... so you are quite literaly scorning the path you took to get where you are and %100 negating your own exsistence in the game if you are \"griefing\" or \"d00ding\" after you have pretended to be a true gamer just to get things..
also as government systems and better Admins/rules are working their way into MMORPG.. your time is slowing coming \"d00d/griefer\" you feel that cold feeling? that the fealing of all those you made life hell for getting their hands around your neck ;)
Also there is a great need for more like yoyodim (if he speaks the truth about himself.. no reason he wouldn\'t be though :D) those who play for the sheer gratification of playing; not of killing others or depriving others...
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Great post athelas, whoever originally wrote that should be a psychologist (sp?).
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wow... I want to be the kewlest kewl d00d ever when i grow up (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/images/icons/smilie.gif)
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Originally posted by Foresteer
also as government systems and better Admins/rules are working their way into MMORPG..
I do not believe that a game should have a rigid government system. why you ask? well.....
Originally posted by Foresteer
just all that \"power\" sometimes taints..
couldn\'t have said it better myself. :) After reading some post here i doubt if some of you can handle the power. Which in all fairness, power combined with rudeness is the real reason people hate \'d00ds\'. Rudeness is in every playing style. I know i could pull some rude remarks from this forum made by some hardcore RPers. Rudeness plus power is definately a bad combination. I am sure you will agree.
I am sure if the d00d from the first post would have partied up the group things would have turned out differently. Also someone would not have something to complain about. KeWl d00d would have killed the monster in two hits and the party would have shared the loot. What is bad about that? (eventhough i think it is more fun to have a longer battle)
I am sure if your government system is implimented you will have many people complaining. Whether it is from abuse of power or getting targeted because of their playing style. It will be compounded if most if not all the \'senators\' are friends. Who is going to go against a friend? Also who is going to stop these group of friends or senators from abusing thier power if the GM and senators are friends? That is why i think a fair, patient, and understanding GM is more valuable than a bunch of friends wielding power. That is where they step into the realm of d00dism (according to some who have posted here).
I am not writing this post to defend \'d00ds\' but to say that all playing styles belong in the game. I also believe people regardless of their playing style should be helpful to other players. If that means going OOC then so be it. I have to go OOC everytime i \'try\' to complete one of the quest on PS so going OOC to help someone is not out of the question.
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A Valid Point... But Aren\'t Admins almost always friends?
Originally posted by Foresteer
Naturally there could be failsafes like impeachment or rebellion if a mayor or official gets eleceted then goes \"AWOL\" ostrisizing anybody who talks anything he doesn\'t like or just because he feels like it (no matter how powerful one might be.. One hundred are stronger then he!),
In other words those who the people elect can just as soon \"un-elect\" (no matter what even if the whole senate was a group of people if the same room holding hands and singing the \"friends forever\" song.. if the people hate them.. they are gone, goner and gonest :P)
Originally posted by Sulatorc I am sure if the d00d from the first post would have partied up the group things would have turned out differently. Also someone would not have something to complain about. KeWl d00d would have killed the monster in two hits and the party would have shared the loot. What is bad about that?
Well its kind of the same thing as \"twinking\" somebody got something for nothing and didn\'t get any satisfaction from it... the whole game could become \"ahh let the power-leveler fight we\'ll just sit here... yawwwwnn\" (case in point \"knight online\" still in beta testing but wayyyy boring as only 2 people out of a party fight.. the rest sit and watch)
EDIT: Originally posted by Sulatorc That is why i think a fair, patient, and understanding GM is more valuable than a bunch of friends wielding power.
Well until you have a \"You have entred PK are! By entering this are you are agreeing you can and will be killed!!\" \"Admin_Randomname Has Killed You!!\"
\"You Have Respawned In Pk Area! You Can And Will Be Killed!\"
\"You Have Killed Admin_Randomname!!\"
\"Error.. Connection Closed! You have been perma-banned for abusing an administrator!!\"
Abuse Forum \"Admin_Randomname Posts: Well i was in the Pk area doing buisness and was stopping me by killing me over and over.. i had to ban him\"
\"AnotherRandom_Admin Posts: Awwww thats horrible :( you did the right thing :D!! Go You!! :D\"
\"HighLevelAdminSlave Posts: Yeah n00bs are always getting in the way... way to go Admin_Randomname!! (if i was admin *hint* i would have done that too ;) lol)\"
\" Posts: What?! he killed me and i killed him back to get my things back!!\"
Situation then yesh it would seem like that would work
I drew all that from an ACTUAL event(s) in game(s) i have played.. so forgive me (seriosly) for being a little cynical of admins and gm\'s holding all the power all the time
(not that the original admins or gms are that way.. but eventualy the people need a say in how things work too... In Real Life consumers of products have the BBB to say when buisness are being unfair.. When Admins are unfair we get a quarter.. to call somebody who cares XD )
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Originally posted by Foresteer
I drew all that from an ACTUAL event(s) in game(s) i have played.. so forgive me (seriosly) for being a little cynical of admins and gm\'s holding all the power all the time
(not that the original admins or gms are that way.. but eventualy the people need a say in how things work too... In Real Life consumers of products have the BBB to say when buisness are being unfair.. When Admins are unfair we get a quarter.. to call somebody who cares XD )
This is why when a game gets sufficiently big it needs a good system of making complaints. It tends not to be a problem in smaller games, because the admins are often the people who built the game from the ground up, and so they have a good idea of what the game should look like. But when the game gets big enough that the admins have to start picking GMs from within the player base problems start cropping up. Obviously the admins are only going to pick GMs that they trust, but nobody\'s perfect, and so occasionally there\'s going to be a rogue GM who tries abuse their power. If there is a strong and well advertised method by which players can make complaints (against other players of against GMs) then, combined with keeping logs, this can reduce problems. Of course in games where the GMs are going to just back each other up, and ignore the problem, as in the example you provided, then the game isn\'t worth playing.
As to the problem of spawn camping to get good items, one thing that I thought might at least alleviate the problem is this. Rather than making it so that items only spawn once every so often, why not limit the total number of them available. That way the items won\'t drop at all, until an already existing one gets destroyed, or lost, or something. And since players won\'t know when the limit has been reached, or when an item has become available it isn\'t worth their while to always spawn camp. Combine this with making item drops not always from the same mobs/in the same place, and it might work. Of course this raises the problem of people maybe hoarding items, so maybe it\'s not so great after all. I dunno.
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Uh um the goverment stystem is already worked out
Eight dignitaries called \"Octarchs\" rule the city; each of them supervises and is responsible for one level of Yliakum. Together they form the \"Circle of the Octarchs\" or \"Internal Circle\", that takes decisions regarding all the people living in the city.
Immediately under an Octarch there are twenty \"Vigesimi\", high civil servants that deal with law and order. There are 160 \"Vigesimi\" in total and they form the \"External Circle\". At the beginning of every year there is a meeting of all Octarchs and Vigesimi that lasts for several months. In this event they evaluate all expenses and revenue of the previous year, all complaining, problems, etc... Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary. Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.
At the beginning of every season takes place the meeting of all Vigesimi of a level, generally (but not always) directed by the Octarch. During these short meetings the members of the External Circle can elect a new Octarch if the previous is dead or too old. An Octarch can\'t be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc... One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal.
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Ahh maybe.. maybe not... just because there is government \"lore/backstory\" doesn\'t mean WE can do government.. (wow what a short post i have made :D)
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It isnt just backstory, let me quote a specific part for you
Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.
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I read it all and again that is in the \"lore\" section.. so maybe.. maybe not (i realise it what it says but that is on the rather large assumption that \"some high citizens\" are players and not some ficticious parts of the story written you it makes since that your \"father\" can be in government)
I am just going to aire on that side of caution and not assume anything ;).. but by all means i hope you are right
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THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS MATTER....
We already have mining bots, and I dont think we can stop them easy :(((((((((
Im sory I have to revive this old post again but now that planeshift has made another milestone with cb I think we need to consider this subject a bit more and very very carefully.
I didint read all of the posts but I did read the original essay and mantars reply, also skiped the other great ideas.
So my point is:
Venge praised mantars essay alot but I think the original essay fits reality alot more. I say this because since 2002 Iv played several rpgs and quit most of them... hell Im just quiting one right now (knight-online) because of doodism.
The first essay makes a very good point, if you cant log everything make shure your game can log at least those characteristics that make doods screw other ppl lives and our beloved game.
doodism is a VERY SERIOUS problem, so I dont make this post too long Ill just tell about how knight online is going down (pathern is same in all other games) :
- doods exploit bugs and dont report them the result is they get insane laves due to xp bugs (dont realy care about it I play to enjoy myself) and start getting every nice item in the game (In knight online theyv had 4 dupe bugs kept secret for a long time).
- they flood the game with this uber items (they want more and more gold to become totaly invencible). whole economy goes down the drain.
- the brag sindrome comes in.... ksing... luring monsters to town... making ppl life a living hell to get aknowlagment of how strong they are.
- game gets unberable as dudes share theyr secrets with few selected ones and the problems above start increasing to an insane lvl.
FIXING :
- baning does nothing, they find new ways, start over chars, the purpose of the game for them is to be incencible and they shure adapt fast (every single rpg I played this last 3 years).
- dont tell yourself gms will work either, there are alot of this guys and if paid games cant have gms roaming the maps and hunting this guys fast enough dont think we will (who wants to spend day after day looking for the same ppl and asking everyone if he is playing fair and not macroing/duping/abusing some sort of bug)
- so the very first essay seems the only solution to me, USE THEM, theyr are the top bug searchers in games, log top players, log top rich people, log as much as you can. if you can log it you can then see what they are exploiting and fixed FAST (not expecting a bug report).
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Boy howdee... in the future \"knight online player\" is gonna be the new insult about a \"dewd\" instead of a \"battle.net player\"
Thats all i have to say about that really :/ (i got bored of it after ONE WEEK of play.. that game is gonna fail so miserably.. it was crap for a free game.. as a P2P games its REALLY crap)
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Want to know how to stop what happened?
Kill that d00d before he even enters that room. One problem with that tho, games now-a-days have mechanical restrictions, that d00ds can take advantage of, and grief you.
Yes, combat restrictions, pvp switches, trammels allow griefers to go almost untouched, and if they are smart enough, go un-banned. From the small things of \"sorry your to low level/wrong class/I dont like you because your hair is gray\" to big things, as in stealing epic items, there is no way to stop this in modern mmorpg\'s.
Player justice does not exist. I would rather kill you NOW than argue with customer support, which, in turn makes the game COST MORE. Look at Dark Age of Camalot and there extensive customer support, and because of newer games taking away there players, they have to RAISE there monthly bills. While other games, with less than a 1/3 of the DAoC playerbase (ie: shadowbane) still exist, and keep going. Why? Players run the game, and the develpoers/support overlook it, and interfear as little as possable. Tho Shadowbanes base code is weak and buggy, its release almost MATCHED WoW\'s 200k in a few days... They sold nearly 150,000 copys when it was released, just like WoW, in the first few days. Doesnt that say ANYTHING at all? People KNEW it was open combat. It was the major bugs and glitches that turned people off.
There are no solid pvp, player justice games in the market. None that require skill, its all \"levels over skills\". A monkey can play a charactor in some of these games.
Hopefully someday, with the open source community, a REAL mmorpg will be created. Full of quests, monsters, fun, conflict, and player justice, and possably be based on players reactions, charactors skills gained thru the reactions, and NO LEVELS. UO in 3d, before trammel, when true roleplayers built real towns (paxlair on ches, for example).
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Originally posted by TooL
There are no solid pvp, player justice games in the market. None that require skill, its all \"levels over skills\". A monkey can play a charactor in some of these games.
Hopefully someday, with the open source community, a REAL mmorpg will be created. Full of quests, monsters, fun, conflict, and player justice, and possably be based on players reactions, charactors skills gained thru the reactions, and NO LEVELS. UO in 3d, before trammel, when true roleplayers built real towns (paxlair on ches, for example).
Brother... I am still in waiting for the game of which you speak :/ hopefuly one day before i die (in about 50-80+ years depending on science) my wait will be over
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I played knight online for 3 weeks and am about to quit too but its just an example, I have started to play tantra and I see macroing all over already, and wont be suprised if I found duping is possible pretty soon.
they adapt so its useless to ban the, there are entire forums dedicated to cracking mmorpgs they have cracks for about EVERY mmorpg around, and keep doing new stuff, and thats for the beginer d00ds, expert d00ds that found theyr exploits keep them.
Why wouldnt a log system work instead of baning (thats the point of my post :) )
Something like :
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1 - Query database and start loging top 20 players (20 just an example)
2 - Wen end of the week comes compare the actual char and its possesions with what he had had the begining of the week (auto script, could be about differen?e in \"levels\", diferen?e in money, number of unique items)
3 - Have php do a nice table with difren?es split it and send it to gms (say moogie gets 10 players and gronomist nother 10)
4- Now both of them play the game, and they will realise that it is impossible for a player to gather 400000000000 gold or xp or great items in a week.
5- Go over the logs (I guess the tricky part is what to log) check what they have been doing. Maybe traded items/ monsters killed/hours playing. Or even at low lvl like packets sent to the server.
5- Fix whatever the problem was, take away things not gained in a fair way to other players from the d00d.
6- repeat process
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I know there are many other threads about dealing with d00ds, the reasons I chose to reply here was:
- Some truly intresting points. From the first essay with the log system. To the poisoning well (mantars essay is a pearl). To gm enforced world, and other nice ideas.
- The log system seems to help solve bugs, and keep the game fair.
Edited for language.