PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Sylk on November 18, 2002, 11:16:28 pm
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I want to see \'rogues\', \'scouts\', and \'thieves\' be able to do what they do.... Steal things.
Make a pick pockets skill that can be used against other players.
Allow them to steal from NPC shops.
Let them break into peoples houses and pilfer.
Okay, I admit that this sounds unfair to non thieves, but it dosn\'t have to be.
Thieves can be made elegible targets to those that caught them stealing and perhaps there guild mates or whatnot.
Guards will attack a known thief and NPC shopkeapers wont sell to them or buy from them.
In most of the games I have played and seen thieves are relagated to a scout role at best. They dont have the health or armour to stand up against a tank. They lack the magic to compare to a mage. They are underpowered when compared to other classes. because we cant do what thieves are s\'pose to do... Steal.
Im not saying that it wouldnt take some balancing, but I would like to see a \'rogue\' type capable of making a viable living doing what \'rogue\' types do.
Sylk
btw-- Im not saying I would actually ever play a thief, but it would be realistic to have them in game. And it would be fun to smack around the one with his hand in my pouch...
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I would like to see theives that can steal from monsters and NPCs. That way you can be a noble (I don\'t know why anyone would be, but it should be possible) theif.
Of course they should be able to steal from people too, but with some limits which I have not the creativity and intelligence to invent right now. Also justice will become important.
Perhaps you can only allow stealing against those who have stolen or PKed (Friendly NPCs) before?
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I have seen this discussed before and I would also like to see this ability well used.
I would also like trapsetting and disarming to be put to real use, as in you cannot pass through an area until a rogue breaks the trap for you.
Along with the discussions on \"karma\" like ratings for characters it would be neat to be able to build a reputation as a skilled thief or assassin. When I play a rogue I lean towards the thieving side of the \"profession\" and being able to accomplish Indiana Jones level feats would be my goal.
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Ok, and what about non-fighters, Blacksmiths, miners, cooks. They would just be left helpless?
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Thieving would be great for the thieves,
but for anyone who finally manages to get their hands on the uber sword of impaling then walks into a crowded room and finds it not there anymore , its not so great.
The key there would be to find a ballanced system,
in a world where pking isnt all that common its not that easy.
My solution to getting stolenn from is to kill the thief and loot the body, but in this case thats not going to work.
And if thieves are allowed to break into houses then that means that there are going to have to be better better lock some traps and other nasty suprises,
Well like a said a ballance has to be found
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Player made traps and lock cant be skill dependent because then uber-thieves would run rampant as they would disarm all locks and traps.
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maybe thieves should be easily killed if they are caught/fail like 1-2 hits
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Well definately balance is the key. As for stealing from characters it should probably be limited to money only. The person stolen from should have a chance of realizing it as it happens and therefore being able to seek retribution against the thief.
Perhaps if it was percentage based it would limit the trouble. For instance if the max amount you could steal would be ten percent of what they are actually carrying on their person at the time.
Honestly I\'m more intersted in being able to rob NPC\'s and NPC establishments as parts of tasks and quests. Perhaps you must rescue an NPC to complete a quest and you\'ve got to steal the keys from the guards first.
And Link, of course others wouldnt be left defenseless they would have special skills of their own but this thread was started concerning thieves.
Again these are just ideas not demands. Basically I am hoping that being a thief has a functional advantage to both the individual player and those who would group with them.
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Thanks Fiere and everyone else for joining in this thread. I am glad to see lively discussion, even from opposing views, such as links.
But ultimately lively and even wish-some and far fethced discussion of things we would like to see should be posted. Any opinions spark the imagination and fuel other opinions and ideas. Without unorthadox thinking we will end up with an orthadox game.
So, I guess what I am saying is I want any opinion or suggestion to be posted so that the Devs and community members have more fuel for thought. Balance issues, features we might want to see, post any of it.
But as Fiere pointed out, this is about thieves... But I wouldnt mind seeing topics related to thieves.
Sylk
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As others have pointed out, the core question is how do you enable thieves to \"thieve\" without making it \"suck\" for the other players (victims)? And how do we keep the game from being 90% thieves?
Everyone here wants to be evil, or at least mischievous, because I guess it is part of the \"escape\" experience from the real world of homework, tests and parents... Instead everyone can be gorgeous, magical, evil elvish female thieves!
:-)
-Venge
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Well I had posted some ideas as to how to make thieving now \"suck\" for other players. Truthfully I wouldn\'t mind if you couldnt steal from players at all as long as the other aspects I listed were somehow in play.
The way to keep \'everyone\" from playing a thief is simple. Every class has strengths and weaknesses, I\'m sure the team has it covered. Thieves are sneaky and devious, they can accomplish all kinds of feats of stealth while others can\'t. But you can only sneak aroung the dragon for so long, at some point you gotta deal with it.
In steps the mage to start blasting away, subtlty is not his skill and he doesn\'t need it. Someone must be on hand to heal the wounded, the thief can only bandaid so much. A thief is a skilled fighter but rarely have I heard of one taking the brunt of the damage. The fighter can dish and take damage.
/shrugs I really do think the team has already addressed it but this is basically how I imagine it would balance out.
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well being a big thiefe fan and having played every type of rogue in any game I have ever played there are a few things I would like to suggest.
the ability to scale a wall. I have never seen this used but is a cool rogue ability.
Pick Pocket is another one and is cool even if you can\'t steal from Pc\'s
making and applying poison is always a personal favorite.
And hiding in shadows.
After all waht is a Thieve who ain\'t sneaky.
Maybe even the ability to read low lvl scroll spells.
Back Stab is a main stay obviously. But how bout the ability to dual wield qu8cker and more efficiatenly with 2 smaller weapons.
Throwing is a big part of being a rogue but it always takes a back seat to bows and arrows I would Like to see it take a bigger part.
Basically a thiefe is not just someone who steals but is also a swift and efficate killer who does so in silence and discreetly. i would love to see that happen here as one way or another as badly as they might suck that is my char. of choice and is waht I am going to be playing
just my 2 cents
Velamos Swiftblade
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DAoC has wall climbing abilities for high level assassins. It is a truly cool feature of the game. One of its redeeming qualities in fact. Also, assassins get to use 2 small weapons efficiently and apply poison to them.
It is so handy to be able to scale the enemies castle walls and scout the defenders or backstab an archer. I REALLY liked the whole climb walls thing.
I would like to see some of those features in PS as well. But what DAoC lacks, is any kinda actuall thieving. No lock picking, no pocket picking, no traps... No Thieves.... just assassins.
Sylk
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Now lets review,
We want thieves to be able to ,
pickpockets from pc\'s and npc\'s, steal from shops pc\'s and npc\'s, poison weapons/food/etc (thereby allowing pking), scale walls, weild dual weapons faster, hide in shadows,backstab, be able to use throwing weapons more proficiently, Set nasty little traps (thereby allowing pking),disarming traps, picking locks,breaking into houses
Hopefully I got everything.........
now seeing as PS isnt class based why would your run of the mill idiot neglect the skills with pk potential ?
IE Poisoning,food,setting traps.
And what is to keep him from abusing them ?
Now I understand most of the people on this thread are pro-thief and thats all fine well and good to each his/her own.
...But while we are making these suggestions for thieving advantages how about a few drawbacks ?
Fieres Karma is one example of that.
Kierns Death by failure is another example.
Whats this whole post about ?
The same thing my first post was about ballance people ballance....
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Pheonix,
Its a \'Wish List\'.
Aside from that however, I dont think any of the pro-thiefs on this thread expect to end up with the end all be all character class. I think balance is important. I expect, that all other characters will have their fair share of ways to defend themselves.
Limits are also expected. I dont really want any one to have the ability to steal the sword of uber l33tness from someone that worked their arse off to get it. But ANY ability to steal is much greater then the NO ability to steal that you get with most thief types in most MMORPGs today.
Again, its just a wish list. Feel free to post your ideas to help balance the situation. It is in fact the other side of the same thread and fits in well here.
Sylk
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My point was to suggest that while we are coming up with thief abilities , we should also be coming up with ways to ballance it.
I thought at first maybe my previous post wasnt clear on that matter but after reading and then re-reading it, it appears to get that point across. But hey maybe I\'m wrong.
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In one sense, even with all the \'perks\' that are mentioned in this thread, it is sorta self balancing.
As was already pointed out, this is a classless system. Characters are based on skill points. If you devote the points to picking pockets or poison, you will suck at combat and armour. Balance is somewhat easier to achieve with a skill point system.
Counter skills for non/anti-thieves could be included, like heightened awareness(detect sneaking people), sixth sense(chance to negate backstabs), fast reflexes(ability to dodge traps), strong metabolism (reduced poison effectivness).
Furthermore, I would limit pick pocket skills to either money, or small and reletively trivial objects. Certainly no quest items should be easily stolen.
Sylk
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On the same note of the point system being self-ballancing then wont players who spend their points on anti-thivery skills be comprimising their combat armor skills ?
Well the reality of the situation is just as in the real world not everyone can be protected,
outside of the thieves you have two classes of players.
1) Those who cut their losses with the thieves and train on combat and armor
2) Those who spend time countering thieves abillities, who loose time on what couldve been spent training combat and armor.
Something else thats been bothering me....If I want to play a thief and I become a master of it, why should I have to limit myself to spare change, and trivial items?
Its quite an iteresting situation....maybe the solution can be found in spending money.
IE protect your home with the great npc\'s spell of screwupathief.
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Another point that has been neglected here is the idea that this is NOT a single player game. It is meant for groups of players or guilds of players. Anti-thieves become more usefull to groups the more a threat thieves become. Sorta like monsters make healers handy.
I do agree with you though Phoenix. Something would certainly have to be done to balance the whole thing. Its just that this would be a truly unique feature as about the closest to thieves I have ever seen in an MMORPG is assassins. (which btw, is what I would be, an assasin, not a thief)
Sylk
--btw, I love the screwupathief spell idea.
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Well Im thinking that the further you progress the more cash youll have to spend on thief deterants, so maybe the ballance can be found there.
Or maybe theres someplace that you can put a select number of items to protect them from being stolen by a master thief.
A master thief should be able to steal from newbies all day long without being caught. But at that point the little money theyll make from newbies is pointless.
No big chances no big gains right......
So instead you break into an Uber Fighters house who happens to have the money to spend on traps/wards/etc
as a thief you dont know what your walking into unless your extremely dedicted and decide to case out a person and their dwelling.
So if your thieving skills arent good enough to detect what been left for you your screwed, if they are then you have a chance of disarming them , you fail your screwed.
Maybe a mini quest for newbies to make cash could be to catch a thief in the act of robbing a persons house....thief is spotted in the act thief is screwed....this adds the complexity of getting away as well.
Dunno how the \"town watch\" would work exactly I\'ll give it more thought later when I am rested
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In some games (wotmud) there is a justice clan for each major area/city. A thief who steals from NPCs there is attacked by said NPC, resulting in a yell and possibly a warrant, meaning that the justice clan/guard NPCs will attack the thief on sight.
However, this is more of a level game than a RP game (though greater RP elements would be great, IMHO) so I don\'t know if anyone would want to form a justice clan, given the restrictions to spending most of one\'s time in one area.
Here\'s an idea...high level players, who have more or less plateaued in levels, form the clans. Because they are strong, they only need a few members per city. There are auto-warrants (so the justices don\'t have to be online all of the time). The more thieves there are (and the more skilled said thieves are) the more fun for the justice clan. Positive feedback system.
Ideas?
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Sylk,
I recognize that these items are a \"wish list\", but Pheonix\'s point is basically correct that your proposals will have better chances of being accepted if you also propose the balancing mechanisms at the same time.
Based on that wishlist, I think thieves sound VERY fun to play, but we must offset that fun or we will have nothing but thieves and victims in the game.
If high-level thieves can steal easily from newbies, even small amounts, they will just for the fun of screwing with the newbies. (If you don\'t believe this, you haven\'t read our forums long enough to encounter the jerks.)
Maybe the first step to really designing this path is to figure out the game purpose of a job like this rather than their specific abilities. For example, maybe thieves exist in the game to provide an alternative to simple \"dragon killing\" quests in the high-end game. If a quest party has the choice of killing or sneaking, that might greatly enrich the tactics of the game.
Comments?
-Venge
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Originally posted by Vengeance
If high-level thieves can steal easily from newbies, even small amounts, they will just for the fun of screwing with the newbies. (If you don\'t believe this, you haven\'t read our forums long enough to encounter the jerks.)
thats why thieves should only be able to steal from people that have surpassed a set skilll level. i know this game wont be level based but perhaps there could be another way to tell how skillful one is. maybe all of your skill points could add up and that would be your overall \"skill level\". that way thieves couldnt pick on the newbies.
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hmm, that could work.
The skill level would have to vary depending on how skilled the thief is. Cause a set skill level at which thieves could rob from you wouldn\'t make sense. Just imagine you yourself, as a thief, still being a newbie. And the only ppl you could rob from are like ten skill levels (for lack of a better term) higher then you. That wouldn\'t be fair, and you would never be able to advance in that skill.
So if you would make the skill level vary, and you still don\'t want newbies to fall prey to thieves. Then you should make it so that newbie thieves could never steal from other newbies, thus making it very hard for a newbie thief to steal (atleast in the beginning) and advance. This could be a good or bad thing, depending on how you look at it. (less ppl would want to be a thief, since it\'s so hard. Thus making it more rewarding for those who do succeed.)
And if you follow this thru, a really advanced thief could never pickpocket someone who would be a real easy target for him, since the skill level at which he can rob from ppl has also moved up a notch. Thus making it always a challenge, and less annoying for the other ppl in the game.
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I know i am new and all but im my own opinion thieves shouldn\'t be able to steal from PC\'s. There should be plenty of NPC\'s for thieves to pillage and shops to plunder to make em happy
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If players can\'t respond when stolen from, (ie PVP combat, though maybe you just knock them out and drag them to the authorities), theives shouldn\'t be able to steal from players.
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I FULLY agree with you on that one David.
Sylk
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The problem with letting thieves steal from pc:s is that it is a PVP action and if you have that player versus player action in you must atleast add the ability to counter the thief pickpocketing, and a system where you can only counter a pickpocketing (and don\'t forget that the thief just can log out, directly after stealing, plus how long time till the player would not be able to retaliate, ? m, 1 m, 1 h, a year, never?) and then the system would not longer make sense, you can\'t waylay or rob someone but you can pickpocket, you can\'t strike someone down who has been standing for an half hour at your side cause your detect thief ability is not high enough and his pickpocket ability isn\'t high enough either, thus we are making way to pking and then when we have added this (for gameplay) we can just watch and wait for the pkingers to turn this game from a roleplaying game till a leveling game (remember it\'s not the gamemechanics that makes the game it\'s the player).
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I just play daoc and fell in lofe with the infiltrator class as I always loved the rogue-style....but a big problem in daoc is: what can a rogue do for the group ?
As I hope that PS will implement nice dungeons with badly trapped doors and nice chests the trapp/lockpick skill is a necessety.....but what can a rogue do in combat besides a onehit-backstab action...
he could sneak to a monster that wield weapons and steal this weapons and throw it away in the distance so zje monster will have to fight some rounds without a weapon and looses effectivity in combat ...
then I hope that quests will get a nice place in PS .....campaigns would be nice...with factions where a thief can steal the most importent key or scroll or whatever without angrying that faction...so that a rogue gives another chance of solving a quest so they are not only doable with kill und destroy tactics
problem with pvp-stealing : since the servers w?n?t be primary pvp servers, stealing PCs would cause disharmonie ( although I like the idea of stealing people) and won?t be good for a nice clima on a server
there should be other oppurtunities for a thieve to show his bad side ....... trickery in gambling.....
but if PC stealing should be implemented then handle it with the looting-system daoc has....grey mobs give no loot...so newbies should be safed from stealing.
and at least stealing PCs schould only give a chance of making fast money...not items
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I might be able to support PvP stealing if a thief presses a button and then the other player has a certain amount of time (5 seconds or so) to \"catch\" him and press another key. Then if he is in fact \"caught\" then the victim can hold the thief and the guards come running! :-)
The 5 second time limit would vary depending on the skill level of the thief and the inventory slot he chooses to go after, pickpocket style.
What about that?
- Venge
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Sounds good to me. I think the items that are pickable by a thief should be limited to coin and mundane items. Otherwise it\'ll be a problem no matter what you do.
If the thief decides to pick someones pocket in the tunnels the guards won\'t be close by, will the player be able to drag the thief back to Yliakum?
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Originally posted by Vengeance
then the victim can hold the thief and the guards come running! :-)
So....what would the guards do then? send them to jail, kill them on the spot, poke their eyes, or just tickle them a lot?
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I think that thieves should be able to:
-Set traps: so it could protect or at least warn a resting party in a dungeon. In case of PvP steal included, and house robbering, they could set traps in houses to protect it; but it adds PK system
-Unset traps: for dungeon traps, and, in case of PvP, other thieves traps(guild war, house robbering,....)
-Steal: at least monsters. They could steal items we couldn\'t get another way. They could steal the mob weapon to handicap it, too. In case of PvP, only a certain amount of money or little items they couldn\'t choose. They should be able to be caught, and it would reduce their \'karma\'. They could only be able to steal from PCs with less or equal \'karma\'.
-As they have good agility, better archery, evasive and 2 light weapons handling skills
-Hide in shadows: To sneak into dungeons, come back safely and tell his party what awaits them. To escape combats he would lose. To reach places without having to fight. In case of PvP steal and house lockpicking, it should be a primordial skill, as not only the victim can see him doing so, but other players too
-Wall/tree climbing
-Poison making: to enhance their weapons\' damages for a short time or poison their victim with an arrow before fighting it. Poisons of different types should be able to be made, to damage or blind or put a mob strengthless or remove the spell capacity for a given time, and so on. In case of PvP, they should be able to poison food and water.
They should be able to heal poisons too.
-Backstab: If the player hit a mob before it has seen him, enhanced damages. If the player observe the creature a long time without being seen, more enhanced damages. Of course, hide in shadows is primordial to use with this skill. They could even do enhanced damages if they\'re doing a \'pincer attack\' with party members.
-They should be the only one able to use the finest daggers
-They could use some acrobatics manneer to avoid/escape combats
For the karma-PK system:
-your karma go down if you PK someone with better or equal karma than yours
-your karma go down if you\'ve been caught stealing, robbering,....
-your karma go down if you accomplish certain amounts of \"bad\" quests
-your karma go up if you PK someone with a lower karma than yours AND if you karma is negative
-your karma go up if you accomplish certain amounts of \"good\" quests AND if your karma is positive or null
-More you heal people, more your karma go up IF your karma is positive or null
-More you donate to \"newbie helping guilds\" and temple, more your karma go up IF your karma is positive or null
-With a negative karma: guards and PCs \"police\" attacks you at sight, shopkeepers don\'t sell/buy items, temples don\'t allow you to enter them. Allow you to access to the \"baddest\" quest, to enter secret guilds and \"bad\" places.
-With a positive karma: shopkeepers lower their sell prices and buy from you at higher prices. Temples allow you to use some type of services(higher is the service, higher karma you must have). Allow you to access the \"goodest\" quests.Get higher rank and fame in society.
I think it should balance the PK. The bad way is possible and give some advantages, but more you\'re bad, more you risk your life. A way of redemption is possible. And the good way gives advantages too. The neutral way give neither risks nor advantages, i think that\'s the big problem of this system.
edit: as someone tells a word about it in this thread, i\'d like that anyone could become a merchant and pass all his life without having to fight but only keep his shop, tavern,....... Same for crafters(in fact i think crafters will become merchants in a logical state of things). But about craft, i\'d like that we could personnalize items by look and power. We should be able to craft or make craft the exact weapon, armor, shoes,.... that would best suit our character and our way to play. Stealer could have an important place here, as they could steal primary materials to monsters without having to fight them, and then sell it to crafters. And we should have to nourrish ourselves, too(don\'t know if it was already mentionned)
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i think to make theiving fair and wouldnt require to much of a balance system is that theives can only steal money! nothing else! only money!
if someone has no money than the theft attemp will not work,
but if someone has alot of money a sufficient amount will be stolen depending on the thieves lvl ,skill, so on.
i think only money should be stolen, its a good idea, and fair to, so u won\'t loose your uber sword of impaling lol so dont fret.
what u guys think, good eh?
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Gotta say I do like the karma system ideas (as anyone who visited my old forum will testify to ;))
I like the fact that the really low down and dirty quests would only be open to those really striving to be completly evil and have worked hard on getting their karma to rock bottom and vica versa with the truly angelic quests ;)
Nice idea, but whatever happens I hope that what we do in the game world will affect some kind of reputation rating - it could form the basis of many in game interactions with NPCs, quests and the like.
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As has been said before, balance is the core issue here. I think that Pc stealing should be allowed, but on the same token, retaliation should also be allowed. As has been said, no one really wants this to turn into a PK or a PVP game, but i agree with comments that thieves should be able to steal. Perhaps, a percentile type system, based on the Thiefs stealling skill, and the target\'s observance, or anti-thief skill. A certain percentage is success not caught, another is success and caught, failure not caught, and failure caught. If the thief is caught, the target should be able to retaliate. Because of this, even a skilled thief would think twice before trying to steal from a high level warrior, or an archmage. This is again where the balance comes in. Maybe killing won\'t be the end of it, because i do like the idea mentioned about guards. If someone captures a thief, and brings them to the guards, the theif should probably spend some time in jail. Maybe only a few hours for first offenses, but progressivly more time for each successive offense(this is where the karma idea fits in.) Making someone spend a day or two in jail will make them seriously reconsider stealing.
As for what should be stealable, I dislike the idea that it should be coin only. Thieves should have a maximum that they can steal, and that depends on their skill level. Then, assign all items with monetary values. So your newly aquired sword of deamon-slaying or whatever, would be worth like 1000 circles, making it virtually impossible to steal, by all but the most skilled thiefs. Probably make what is stolen random too, because realistically, a thief doesn\'t open someones pack, look arround for a bit, pick what they want, and leave. Its more of an open, grab something, book-it routine. Also, equiped items shouldn\'t be stealable, namely a sword, shield, or armor. I don\'t think there\'s a thief in the world who could get a suit of plate armor off of someone, or get a sword out of someones hand, without being noticed. Jewlery should be fair game, but the difficulty on it should probably be harder.
To keep everyone from being thieves, the pickpocket skill should be fairly expensive in terms of points. The counter skills should be relatively in-expensive, at least for the first couple levels in it. That way a Newbie can afford to spare a few points to protect themselves a little. Also, by making the counter skills cheap, it allows fighters and mages and such to keep the focus on their primary ability, while being able to protect themselves a bit.
Breaking and entering should be equally limited. Traps, alarms, and whatnot should definately be in. I think it would be amazing to be a thief casing out a house, and then slowly working your way through it, carefully disarming traps and alarms. If ya screw up, as before, the penalty would probably be jail time and or a fine of some kind.
As for other rogue skills, like hide in shadows, poisoning, and disarm traps and such, these should be cheaper, because these are, in most cases, very helpful for teams. I think poisoning weapons is good, but poisoning food should be out, because that definately would yield a good amount of pvp.
All These things together make thieving very difficult, but if successful you can make good gains off of it. Just like real life.
Anyways, that\'s my two cents expressed in an epic post. Keep posting the ideas people.
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I think guys, about stealing, that you always forget something: steal someone in a city couldn\'t be notice only by the victim, but by other people around too. That\'s why having a good steal skill shouldn\'t be enough. The stealer should have other skills at a good level, like hiding. Of course, a thief could only steal little random items and/or money. But what i think is the most important is to allow to steal monsters, so you can be a thief without \"harming\" people.
I\'d like to note that, with the karma system, \"Baddest\" guys would have access to items/guilds/quests others don\'t, like best poisons, best leeching weapons, best assassin weapons,assassin guilds and quests,..... as the \"Goodest\" would have access to best sacred weapons, best healing spells/potions,........
I think it would be great to balance good and evil and not simply punish the bad ones. Evil should be as risky in good cities as Good should be in evil places. Each side should have advantage/disavantage. And the most important should be that you could follow a path and then, go another.
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I agree with everything in your post, Aduin.
But about the karma idea, what about those who wish to remain nuetral? They must have something extra also. Or those who wish to be between good and nuetral? Or between nuetral and evil?
I don\'t really like how you can only execute PvP acts upon those with less karma than you. If that were to be done, Thieves would only prey on other thieves, which is not at all realistic, and is just as much unbalanced. Theives will be good at noticing theivery, since they are agile and with sharp eyesight. Also, thieves always try to pick on the lowest level possible. If a skill limit is made, then players will start dreading that 50th skill point where they will be a target for theft.
Noble, lawful people will never be victims of thievery if the karma system previously mentioned is implemented. Once again, it is unrealistic.
Something besides karma must be used to limit thievery, unless anyone can think of a better way.
And about deeds done for karma, something must be able to distinguish between morally good and lawful and vice versa with evil. If an official is bending the law to punish someone and you intervene, what will happen to your karma?
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I agree, Aruneko, that karma shouldn\'t be the basis for thieving. Karma should still be in the game, because it does add a lot, but to use it for restrictions on items, and Pk abilities and such, just doesn\'t make sense. Having separate quests for high and low karmas is cool though. I also disagree with the idea that people with negative karma should be Kill-on-sight by guards. That makes it very difficult for people that start down the path of wrong-doing to change their ways. Guards should only kill, or capture on sight, people that have recently done something unlawful. Just like with real life, a criminal is caught, they do the time, they\'re released. They still have that noteriety of being a criminal, but the police can\'t do anything to them at that point, unless they do something else wrong.
All that being said, I think a karma system could be very difficult to implement, because you can gain reputation as a good or bad person through many, many different ways. Ultima Online had a decent fame/karma system, but that was based entirely on killing things. Good and bad, unfortunately, isn\'t as black and white as what you kill. I\'m really looking forward to see if/how this will be implemented in game.
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Did karma and fame actually do anything in UO besides giving you bragging rights?
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I don\'t know exactly what that system did in UO, because I only played on free Sphere based servers, not the actual servers. That system could have serious potential though, if done right. Unfortunately, fame and karma are often too qualitative to really be used, or measured. That\'s the problem with games that have large player bases. In small games, everyone knows everyone, and there\'s no need to put a number on how good or evil a player is. No one will argue that a small player base will be good for PS, so we need some way of quanitfying karma, and maybe even fame as well.
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yeah, true, sorry, my mistake
PvP steal shouldn\'t be limited to less karma people and guards should kill on sight only a certain amount of time after an \'evil\' act, depending on the act, and, perhaps, the victim\'s karma. \"Police players\" karma shouldn\'t be influenced by the people killed \"in duty\".
Like i said before, that\'s the big problem of this system: neutrals have no advantages in this system. And i don\'t have any little piece of what would be a clue of how we could balance it. There should be a neutral guild(with nature loving people like druids) that only them could access, but what else?
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Yes, finding some kind of advantage for neutrals will be difficult.
Going back to stealing though. The point is to make it a gamble. Just like when going to a casino, the odds are always against you. So if you keep up indefinately, you will always end up loosing.
One problem with putting fines, on a thief, is that if they can transfer the money to another charecter quickly, before they\'re caught, they could get away with the money. For that reason, a thief shouldn\'t get out of jail untill they return what has been stolen, as well as a fine to the community. Lets say then, that someone made this as a temporary charecter, and jailing them means nothing, they\'ll just go and make a new one, and transfer the stolen cash to their main charecter. Stealing must take time to get up, to prevent 1st day thiefs. People who play thiefs must actually care about doing it. For that reason, I think that pickpocketing, or stealing, shouldn\'t be something you can start with. Perhaps a quest or something to earn the skill later on, and then work on it. No one could easily ditch a charecter they put a few months into getting up, and no one would waste a few months for the relatively small gains made by that steal. Doing this will keep the number of thiefs relatively small, and it will keep them from randomly stealing. They need to be sure the gains are worth the risk, which will keep them from preying on newbies.
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Following Venge\'s idea (which is very good) maybe when the theif is caught, a gaurd comes running, and runs the thief through. The dropped items (such as stolen things) transfer to the gaurd and then to the character that was stolen from.
Only one flaw I can think of about Venge\'s idea is that some people may walk into a highly populated place and hit the button repeatedly, and wait for thieves so they can grab some dropped loot.
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I also like that idea, however, to prevent people from abusing it, maybe when a persons awareness, or anti-thief skill gets triggered, the guards are automatically called. So that way, a thief that isn\'t actually caught, wont get caught. And rather than killing the thief, i think they should be dragged off to jail, and items returned from there. Keeps people from abusing the guards.
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As a roleplaying aid, Thievery could be very usefull. Certain quests could only be done by groups with a thief in the party capable of stealing the key from a wondering guard without being caught (or whatever scenario u like to imagine).
The Karma system would be a great tool for overall game balance, not just for thieving. I think I am very fond of the karma concept. Kudos to who it was that brought the idea into the discussion (i missed ur name).
On a side note, WOW. I was gone for turkey vacation and come back to a lotta thought in this thread!
Sylk.
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Guyz, i think that steal should be a skill we could use \"safely\" on PCs and NPCs only at high level(i mean, at low level, you can\'t do it without being caught). Thieves should have to train on monsters before being able to do it on characters. I think that stealing monsters should give, sometimes, items you couldn\'t get another way. I think that not only the victim but also people around should be able to notice the thief stealing someone. If these 3 rules are applied, i think that thieves will mostly steal monsters than characters, if the punishement when you\'ve been caught is bad enough(like taking back what he has stolen plus a little more for the guards and sent to jail a certain online time, dependending of the number of times you\'ve already been caught before)
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Barette, I definately like the idea of leveling up on monsters/npcs. Items that can only be found through stealing, however, I dislike. Realistically, if someone has something you can steal, you can kill them and take it as well. Also, a prime concern is game balance. Giving the thief more power, like this, would be unfair to some other classess. If you put in steal only items, you would have to put in kill only items as well. But then the thief backstabs the monster after stealing from it, and gets both.
One concern I have about npc stealing, is if a thief goes through a part of a dungeon using stealth and such, and steals things off every monster there. Then a group comes through, kills a lot of stuff, and gets nothing for their effort. This could get very frustrating, especially if the monsters are difficult.
As for your idea about \"safely\" stealing when you\'re a high level. If thieves could steal in safety at high levels, then a high level thief would be unstoppable. There will always have to be at least a significant risk to stealing.
Another idea, asside from random odds based solely on skills, could be the ammount of time the thief has spent watching the target. If a thief follows someone arround for a long time, they\'ll have better odds of stealing, but they\'ll also be more likely to be seen by the target. And as your level goes up, you will have to spend less time watching your target. I think it could be a lot of fun trying to follow someone arround the city, while avoiding being seen. Or, for higher level thiefs, they can watch/follow the mark from a greater distance.
Just some thoughts. Keep it up!
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yeah you\'re right when you say that it\'s unfair and unrealistic to be able to steal items you couldn\'t get another way, my mistake
When i say \"safely\", i want to say \"with a chance of not being caught\". And i insist in the fact that people around a steal act should be able to see it too, and react as they wish. With this fact implemented, a stealer should have a good hiding skill to steal a character(that mean he has to level 2 skills).
Don\'t forget that the game isn\'t base on classes but on skills and that everybody can take this skill, so it shouldn\'t be \'more efficient\' than another. I think that stealing a monster should be as hard as killing it, so you shouldn\'t try to steal a creature you wouldn\'t fight. And you could only steal a %(something like 20-25) of its treasure, and stealing an already stolen monsters should already fail(what should warn the monster and attack the thief). I think that a \"move silently\" skill should be used, too, if we want to pass a monster without warning him, and not only \"hiding\". So you could do easy money, but before being able to do it, you have to grow 3 skills.
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Oh, I definately agree there should be a chance of not getting caught, I\'m just saying that the odds should be stacked against the thief.
I hadn\'t really though about the fact that they had to level up several skills. That is a considerable balance in itself looking at it.
I do like the idea of others being able to spot the crime. I don\'t know how it would be implemented exactly, but it does make a thief consider keeping to side streets and not busy marketplace. But then again... in a seriously crowded marketplace, it is far harder to spot a thief. So how exactly would that work?
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dunno, i\'m just giving the idea ^^6
Let\'s think about it together....
perhaps stealing should make an animation of the thief(like his hand going under his victim\'s clothes) that should only be seen by other characters that had enough skill to see the thief doing so.....Like this, the \"spectators\" must not only have the skill to spot steals but must pay attention truely, too.
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Now that idea I like. I don\'t know what the spotter would have to do to call the gaurds, or flag the thief, but it is definately a good idea.
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The spotter can tell, if he wants, the act he have seen(autoscreenshot when you spot a law breking act) to the guards. It should automatically raise the spotted player\'s bounty as it\'s talked about at: http://www.planeshift3d.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=1984&boardid=11&styleid=2
Yeah, great ideas here too, but i wonder if they serve to something....I think that PS designers have other things to do than read players\' hopes of the utopic MMORPG they\'d like to see/play
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Originally posted by BaretteDeBeurre
Yeah, great ideas here too, but i wonder if they serve to something....I think that PS designers have other things to do than read players\' hopes of the utopic MMORPG they\'d like to see/play
I completely disagree. The designers definately read the posts and while the posts may not be exactly what goes into the game, they definately at least consider them. They\'re designing the game for the players, and to do so I\'d think they would have to listen. They can\'t possibly be designing the game for themselves, since it\'s going to be free!
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I think thieving would add an unique and exciting element to the game but like said it should be balanced too.
I think that stealing from PC\'s should be possible but hard. Obviously you cant steal equipped items one would definatly notice that. But the things in your inventory should also become harder to steal based on:
a) Weight, someone would notice it if his backpack gets 10 kilos lighter for sure.
b) Size, try pulling a piano out of someones backpack/pockets for the heck of it some time.
c)Value, if i had just found something incredible valuable he would watch it 24/7 and feel to see if it\'s still there.
So your uber impaler sword which is prolly rather big and heavy and veeeerry valuable would be impossible to jack (if you weren\'t already wearing it equipped)
And i like the justice team thing suggested as well they would hunt them downand bring them to justice.
Also in morrowind when you get arrested all stolen gear is removed from your inventory (this would involve a pretty tricky owner-system tho :/ ) So if you go around thieving for all ur supergear and get arrested you lose everything with you that was ever stolen which for a hardcore thief (like i was in morrowind) that would suck pretty bad losing all of your good gear. PLus maybe a bonus fine on top of that
And as for breaking in to people\'s houses this should be even harder. But if you make like a bank where people can store their most valuable items (limited storage place and a fee every time you access it) and they would just keep decent gear in their homes that wouldnt be too bad and they can always get better locks when they grow richer/better. Maybe even pking ability inside your house (trespassers will be shot) and gaurds patrolling and arresting people who are breaking in.
Further people who steal should lose align/karma even if they aren\'t caught. Because if you brag about it in taverns and such or are seen but not reported/caught you get a certain reputation too.
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The problem with all these balancing systems is that if you make it hard enough/punished enough to really deter people, then what\'s the point of having the feature in the first place? If you don\'t, then it will be overused.
There is no way to win...
- Venge
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Its true, no matter how hard the devs tried to balance PvP pickpocketing,there would be a lot of discontent on both sides of players:thieves and non-thieves.
I really think it would be more interesting to implement thieving skills Indiana Jones style, as a method for breaking and entering in dungeons. They could pick the NPC pockets for keys, passwords and floorplans. They could pick the dungeon gate locks and undo the traps waiting for them .
All these things would make a thieves skills worthwhile AND make the thief themself appealing as a party/groupmember to other players instead of a potential menace.
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Vengeance, the balance is hard to find, but it exists. In gambling, the odds are stacked against you, yet people still flood casinos for the chance of winning. Stealing should be the same way. Make it so you could get a lot, but if you keep it up you\'re guarenteed to loose in the long run. I agree with Fiere, that the majority of stealing should be geared towards dungeon raids, and npc stealing, but i think it should be possible for a thief to try their luck on a pc. Maybe get something, more likely loose something. It\'s a risk, but if the odds aren\'t too grossly disproportional, there will still be a number of people willing to try.
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I agree with you there, Fiere, but I would call those Rogue skills as opposed to Thief skills...
But then, I\'m just a humble coder and not a Rules or RPG expert. :-)
- V
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Potatoe,patahtoe :P I guess I often say thief because I prefer the skills of stealing and trapsetting/breaking to the assasin role rogues get lumped into.
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hummm i think that thieves should be allowed to steal from players but also i think that there should be limits.
A good idea would to be that players sign up to be allowed to steal/be stolen from and become player killers, at the same time you can only steal from other player killers and kill other player killers :).
I also think that thieves should only be allowed to steal a certain amount a week/day whatever or that they get taxed on what they steal (although im not sure who would taz them etc or who the money would go to for that matter :rolleyes: ) what you guys think anyway? ?( :]
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I definetely think that thiefs should have alot of abilitites and beable to pickpocket pc\'s and poison food and everything. That being because i am alwaysa theif in any game i can BUT.......
If thiefs can do everything and get away easily it will totally ruin the game plus it wont be as much fun for us theifs. I enjoy running away. So we could limit thiefs to only being able to pickpocket items of a certain weight as it is unrealistic to steal a halberd or double handed broad sword. However a thief could steal daggers and valuable Gem stones and coins ofcourse. also maybe you could have anti-thief shops (think of a better name some other time) which sell maybe small traps for putting in pockets this could reduce pickpocketing. Also i think the town gaurd idea would be good having npc\'s and things come after you. You could also have wanted posters for known thiefs and a price for there capture this would be a good way to earn money for thief killers. i think these ideas would balance out the advantages and disadvantages well.
Also thiefs dont neccesarily work together you could hire thefs or assaisns to kill or steal valuble objects of other pc\'s making the game much more exciting.
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Oh yeh and another thing we could have special doorways and storeroooms or safes if you want to call them that available to build in houses. You could have the owner of the house out a password on the door or something this would make it fun for spies they could listen into the password and get all the loot in the room but this would give a place for people to keep valuble things away from burgalers and thiefs
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hmmm dont know if this has already been said but...... If say u get stolen from and u can report it to the guards with a description of what the thief looks like, and the guards then go on to catch the thief. U should be allowed a little \'marking\' (using that word loosely) above the players head or something like that to show u that u reconginse thethief and u can administer some payback. Of course this would be illegal inside a town (would it?) so u can wait till he leaves and reclaim ur stolen possesions. And anything else he may be carrying ;)
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I have an easy solution! I doubt that anyone will like being stolen from. How about stealing from monsters? Stealing would merely generate a new object from a monster. This way, the thief will not need to kill the monster for its loot.
Players will complain if they kill monsters but get no loot, so stealing should generate a NEW loot... not exactly taking it. Understand?
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A topic near and dear to my heart.
A few things should be noted though.
Anything that implies another innocent player will fall victim to seems to me at this moment to not be viable. In essence thieves don?t get to steal from players?but from a players house perhaps :-)
Now, what does this leave thieves to do if they can?t steal?well there are a number of possibilities. One such is a thief Vs. thief type mini game. where thieves belong to a world that others just don?t quite see?in essence TvT as opposed to PvP. Another is to make the skills most attributed with a thief an integral part of the game. unique drops necessary for quest or such to be only attainable through a thief skill.
As an example: Trog Keys.
Dead trogs don?t drop keys, in fact when the trog who had the key dies the key goes away. To enter the trog dungeon someone in the group needs to lift a trog key off a trog?the keys are magical constructs and only last 5 minutes and for one use.
While this is really simplistic this suddenly makes thieves viable to a group?well at least to get in the front door.
Traps and other fun things require a lot of thought and effort on the side of developers. Not so much as to have them, but in a way to implement them that makes them viable. To date no MMORPGs that I am aware of has really done the ?thief? class of characters in a way I deem correct.
This is not because they don?t see the potential or are just stupid, but because it is difficult to do in a well balanced way. My hope is at some point we are able to do so.
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I think there has to be pvp pickpocketing because if there isnt the game isnt realistic enough
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Temrus, I?m going to bash on you a bit?nothing personal but you struck an issue I have.
Realism is not an argument for anything, related to a game, realism is an argument for a simulation.
Now for engrossing 3D worlds and such, a level of realism is somewhat necessary, but using it as a ?reason? for anything is not even a decent argument?it is an extremely weak one.
Realistic game world. You have one life, thieves or people suspected of being thieves are caught while they sleep and their heads find themselves posted on a pole somewhere. Lets not even mention murderers. How these people would be found?well magical scrying can be used to find the objects that are missing.
Anyway, what is realistic enough for certain people and what is not is way too subjective. So in general I ask people to not use realism as an argument. Will the laws of physics be well represented in the game?NO, they will be simulated in a very rudimentary way. Will anyone have the off random ability to kill the ultimate warrior in a single blow?.NO. will a small fall of a 2 meter ledge have a chance to kill a player?NO.
All these things are real and will not be in the game. PvP pickpockets are not common. Pickpockets are usually about teaming up and distracting someone enough to lift what you want, and there is always a chance that the target will notice. And there is also mugging and hold ups. Leaving people without anything of any value. The ability of 20 people to take on the best fighter in the world with little chance of being defeated?one good hit and it is over.
We don?t want realism in our game, at best we want action movie realism?that leads to the question of what movies?
So this rant is all just to say, make a better argument then ?cause it would be realistic? if that was the case imprisonment would be the most common penalty for breaking laws (since death is short term) and then torture and other fun penalties such as maiming. The length of time?years and years since the characters don?t age. In short we would make the penalties so extreme that 99% of players would not do it. And that is where it brings to the table if we would really bother to implement.
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To my mind there can\'t be any pickpocket as long as you can\'t kill outside a guild context. Cause when noticing a thief is stealing in your backpack, ow could you react then ?
Although thiefs are a marvellous way to build plots, and a delicate \"class\" of player (even though there are hundreds of differents thieves, from the the strong primal warrior who would rob your money to the tiny 12 year old girl that emptys your backpack while her friend faint to talk to you) they can not and must not be implemented at this early stage of the year.
paxx (Developer ? Member)
so perhaps ask again in 14 months.
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I just think that player v player pickpocketing would be great because you never get it but i get what you mean about the realistic thing guess i didnt think. But Like a said i wouldnt want you o be able to pickpocket huge swords and stuff just gems and money and things and if you dont want thing to be pickpocketed you can always put them in a bank or something
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i think that there should be some random neutral npcs in game which you will be able to steal from them of course they will be able to attack you if they will see that you have stolen it.
Same as for example with some random neutral moster like sleeping dragon so thiefts will be able to steal from him, but ofcourse dragon will attack low level thiefs or non thiefs because he will notice them
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what do you think about this idea?
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I think Thieves should be the only players that can steal from monsters. Only monsters not other people.
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I have a sudden idea. Why not monsters steal from people? I mean, it\'s not fair for the NPCs to be stolen from and not steal back. It would be interesting yet annoying if that happened, but having an item stolen by a NPC or player is basically the same thing. You still lose the item.
Like others said before me, there should be a limit as to what you can steal. Not only weight, though. Size of an item can affect whether it can be stolen or not, or how hard it is to steal. Where the items are can also affect how hard or easy it is to steal that item.
One more thing: I personally believe that anyone can steal from a monster. And anyway, how can you say who is a thief and who isn\'t? The game will not, after all, have any classes. And anything is possible, from old men dragging a horde of gold from a dragon den to walking and talking pie.
Some of my confused thoughts on the topic of thieving.
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wait is Thievery a job, skill, or trade, or class?
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Well, classes are not going to be in the game, so it can\'t be a class. I believe that it is a category for skills relating to thievery. It could be a job, although I believe that some people will have another job and be a thief. Overall, I think thievery is a category of skills for things like lockpicking, backstabbing, and the like. I\'m not too sure. I did check the main website though, and based my opinion on that information, though.
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Life is live
The game itself should in my opinion give the players all possibilities, therefore no limition to stealing-only-certain-objects-or-money. If a thief steals the sword of uber 133tness from McHero - that\'s life. McHero should see this as part of his quest. He could go to the local thives guild and askfor his sword, the thief or give them the job to return it. He could also ask the police ...
On the other hand, think of movies, why does no thief steal Indiana Jones\' whip or Lukes light saber? Because the hero would see the thief and beat the **** out of him. Implemented in Planeshift, this would mean a anti-thievery skill.
Another point:
Why is our world not overflooded with thieves (or is it?), because most of us tried it once as child and burn their fingers, so we let it. Most thieves don\'t pass the beginner stage and therefore quit business or get caught and punished until they quit. So it would be the task of the (player!-)police to fight against crime in the cities. The world administrators could give prizes for the best police some times to encourage the building of police departments/guilds.
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I think the police idea is a good idea but i still think you should be restricted to certain waited items because its not very likely that you would be able to steal a huge claymore out of some1\'s hand or backpack without them noticing. Plus if thiefs can steal stuff like that all they\'ll have to do is wait until some1 gets the best sword in the game and then steal it of them. This would be unfair but i think the police thing would add a certain zest to the life of a thief =)
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Thieving?from PCs is the same as Pking?in fact you can?t have Player thieving PT??? without PKing?so No!!!
As for player controlling the thief community. Players can not go to the thief?s players home and kick him in the balls. Thus you tell me what it a punishment that would add a moral code to a games society.
In real life it is the fact that you can die, be imprisoned for a long long time, and when someone hurts you?it might be permanent.
In the game you can have many characters, nothing is permanent and your character can improve as much as possible?and stats matter.
I have not seen a game that can have the moral freedom of real life, that does not degrade into chaos.
Now for adding ?thief? oriented content?as in stealth and fleetness over brawn?I feel is a necessity. But it is hampered by our lack of ability/want at the moment.
I am pretty sure that in the future this will change, since some of the forthcoming titles will have the features that will make this possible.
But as for the player community controlling things and it not becoming a loss of all morality?I have seen very little of this anywhere and it is up to the game to set the moral code.
If we made everyone killable by everyone ala FPS, then I predict all we would have is mass murder every day?but it might be that I think little of the online community and that I am wrong.
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look theiving could be fun, but if us pkers cant have way and kill you theifs before you steal cause we want your stuff then i say no. the game has to have some ballance i mean one group of players cant be uber and another be nothing but victims. i mean im all for pvp and theiving but tehre has to be some limits all these punishments for everything takes away from the game aspect of it all. i dont agree with brining npcs into players buisness.
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There must be NPC thieves in the final game
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what if I am a really strong warrior but I have one skill point in stealing. Then I can go up to anyone, steal from them and if I am caught then I could fight my way out. that way I could commit murder in non PvP zones.
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Limits could be nice if thieves could steal from players (limited, low amount of money and some lesser, unvaluable items) and maybe lowered chanse of success... and if the thief don\'t succeed stealing, the wictim will notice it. If the wictim finds out sevral time about the same thief trying to steal from him, he could tell a guard or someting and the thief could go to jail.
Maybe a guard could patrol the home-areas a maybe notice thiefs trying to break in to an house or escape from the house (and of some unknown reason know the thief isn\'t welcome) and put him in jail.
If the thief really wants goodstuff to steal, he should steal from strong monsters...
The thief should maybe have a possibility to break out of jail by lockpicking locks and sneaking out... maybe the guards can have some help from monsters to stop thieves to escape too... if the guard finds a thief escaping, the thief should get back to jail for a longer time...
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Rather than guards sending you to jail which i think is rather pointless and wont really discourage someone from stealing, they should be able to hit the thieves where it hurts. I think guards should issue large fines and remove all stolen goods from the thief, by stolen goods i mean anything theyve stolen EVER and maybe the items returned to the players stolen from. Also players should have to chose wheter they want to go player killer (enabling them to play pvp) before they do they will be warned of all the risks and told they can be stolen from and killed by other players etc so as to stop people whining about not knowing. This way people who want to go round stabbing monster can, and people who want to kill and steal from other players (and vice versa) can. What you think?
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Your guys Ideas are great and all make sense. But the key word is ( and always will be) is balance. maybe if you fail at pickpocketing the gods strike you with thunder....wait never mind.....thats just embaresing. Maybe Theres the big risk of jail for your character where you spend actuall game time in it with other players and while your there you lose some of your skills or something. Or maybe the victim and stealer have to play a mini game to win the item or keep it. But that would be annoying. Hmm, this is harder than I thought. Wouldnt it be kinda easy to see the stealer with that 3rd person view. ARRGGH Darn you balance. Ill have to get back to you guys on this. Maybe players can hire guards for their homes...
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i think some sort of falling percentage for stealing would be nice on targets, like 10% for the first attempt, 5% on the second, 2.5 on the third.
Each attempt makes the person twice as aware, and so if you succeed, then you take less.
Also give the theives a number of attempts before their concious breaks in and says \"this is bad, stop stealing\" so first time thieves will only have 3 attempts per 24 hours, or something like that. Experienced theives will get more attempts, but set up a max, and make the max so that it needs to be trained heavily to get to there. Forcing players who want to UBERtheif on others have to sacarafice a lot.
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As archaic as this thread may be... there\'s still seems to be a lack of balance. I wish I\'d read through this threads first.
Yes... the PvP attack this limits all sorts of things in the game.
I suggested in another thread that there should be safe areas. Towns are safe areas. Wilderness areas are not.
You should be able to PK, thief, anything goes style outside of a city. This solves a number of problems.
There\'s no need for local police. People are not as likely to run into each other outside of towns, and when they do, they\'ll likely be riding horses, or running. Since all characters seem to run at the same speed. You\'d have to wait for someone to tire or slack, get involved in combat, or something.
This negates the need for police, for jail... and I still don\'t see the problem with PKing.
DEATH DOESN\'T DO ANYTHING. so you goto the death realm... so what... I\'ve suggested other ideas on ways, and I think the karma idea brought up in here, and other posts is good. I\'ve yet to see a successful game that hasn\'t implemented some sort of alignment checking.
If players don\'t drop their goods when they die, or can\'t be looted, as they\'re transported the death realm. I think you focus on what happens when a character dies. Like a punishment after death... as mentioned in other threads, a harder set of levels in the realm of death... such as having to escape something like Dante\'s inferno. The death realm I think has the potential to create the balance that seems to missing.
There\'s no punishment for death. Or any reason to be worried about dying. I know there\'s going to be some serious changes, but this whole PvP totally negates many pen and paper RPG rules, it\'s not so much that sucks, it just imposes so many limitations. Altering the rules on PvP combat would be far more worth it, to extend Thief skills outside of safe areas. But how do you define a safe area. This is a good thread, one I\'ve been pondering for a long time, and also deserves to be resurrected. And this seems to be closest thing to a balance.