PlaneShift
Development => Development Deliberation => Topic started by: Ethan on November 02, 2005, 11:58:41 pm
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Hi,
This come from a chat on #planeshift.
A part of the community would like to have the chat-commands in their local language. I think this translation will happen even if not officially supported by planeshift\'s devs but It would be better in order to not create a fork, to create a multilanguage-based commands project officialy supported.
We do not require planeshift\'s devs help, we will create a special team for this project.
The aim of this project is to change the languages of the commands but we are agree that all chat in PS should be in english (the official and unique language of PS). Sadly, it is true that this project may lead to creat sub-communities with differents language.
We would like your feedback on this project\'s idea.
Ethan
If this project is accepted, we would be pleased to have a special sub-forum for our project in order to not hugely expand this one. Why we would like to use this forum? Because this project should be like PS : international and open to all.
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i think actually there _are_ communities for languages other than english already.
as i mentioned in the irc-session i will try to help as much as i can.
the idea is *not* to split up the community, but there are quite many people in the game talking in their own language.
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I forgot to add this point :
This project will also try to better organize the commands system.
And to write a documentation.
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Support for loading the GUI and aliasing the commands into multiple languages has been planned for a while. Unfortunately, it\'s not a simple thing to add. Though I totally agree, one should be able to control their computer using whichever language they choose.
I would also have to agree that English needs to be mandatory for broadcasted (not tells) chatting in-game. If we want one coherent world, we need one language.
English is the most used (though, Mandarin is more common as a first language), especially on the Internet. At some point this dumb little planet is going to have to pick a freakin\' language, and start merging the good parts of the others into it. English seems to be good at absorbing parts of others in place of deficient parts of it self, so it seems to be a good choice. It\'s about the only one that allows change. Japanese allows a massive amount of change as well, but usually by adding English words, nowadays. (There\'s no coincidence that the 2 candidates are both from the top 2 technological powers...) Honestly, I don\'t care what language it is; whatever it becomes would not resemble its base much. A large amount of the problems on this little blue speck are the result of feeling indifferent to those who are different, and getting rid of the main arbitrary difference would be a nice start. (Arguments that language affects culture are valid, but if your culture is entirely dependent on the language it uses it\'s already screwed... All cultures change; deal with it.)
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the thing with making other language things is that, people will still have to speak english in the end unless they are never going to use public chat... im not sure if thats a written rule but ive been told to enforce it anyway so... changing the language of things seems like pointless effort to me. but hey... waste/spend your time how you see fit
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Originally posted by DaveG
(There\'s no coincidence that the 2 candidates are both from the top 2 technological powers...)
Yay England back where we belong on top! :D
But seriously I agree with DaveG\'s rant if we all want to get on the best way would be to speak the same language, however if the EU can\'t decide (and currently has 3 main languages) and spends a fortune translating legislative documents in to over 20 languages, then what chance has the rest of the world!
As a footnote if the chinese continue teaching English at there current rate it will be the most widely spoken within the next 10 years.
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I can already imagine a question on the help channel:
How can I open the help window?
And an answer from the advisor:
Try one of the following commands: /help, /hilfe, /aide, /aiuto, /ayuda, /apua, /hjelp
And then:
None is working. I get \"Pesaroso. Comando desconhecido (uso /ajuda)\"
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Don\'t want to dissapoint but english is only 3rd. 2nd is spanish :)
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So the command is /ajuda :D and I don\'t know this language. About the client behaviour, I haven\'t yet thought about i.e. should the chat manager be able to understand only one language, one language+english or all language at the same time?
the thing with making other language things is that, people will still have to speak english in the end unless they are never going to use public chat... im not sure if thats a written rule but ive been told to enforce it anyway so... changing the language of things seems like pointless effort to me. but hey... waste/spend your time how you see fit
That is a good a point but the project will also try to create a better implementation of the commands system and will have first to write documentations on how the current system is workindg, how we change to change, how will the new system work.... *
So this project will not be so useless even if the language used it-self would not matter a lot. It seems to be the first sub-project in PS and I hope this will lead to the fact that more people will contribute to PS developpement eg code, art, game\'s documentation ( http://www.ps-mc.com/ advisor heaven, whish list, quotes database...)...
* Sadly, PS\'code is not very well documented, this project could be also the beginning of a documentation project... (anyone interested?) A documentation is really needed but I know this is hard to have people who know coding and documentating and who are willing to do this...
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Well, if someone asks for what the help command is, and they\'re told \"/help\", it\'d work. If they also want to type it in their native language, that would work too. The idea is to give choices.
Ethan:
PlaneShift Documentation (http://planeshift.sourceforge.net/pubapi/html/index.html)
:)
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What Dave said is my opinion, too, but I don\'t think that the other things are something to worry about yet, because we haven\'t even tried.
No doubt that english still is, and will be the only language in the chat.
And I can\'t see, that there are sub-comminities, who don\'t interact with others, because there are none. I don\'t think you can foresee what happens exactly, it hasn\'t been done yet, so why don\'t you just give it a try, there are many people who would work on it, and all of them know what Planeshift is about.
I think the community benefits from users, who like the game and would help, but if there are not very good in english they surly get better by the time, because you learn it best, when you are using it.
But for those people it would be easier to get an entry to the game, if they have the chance to use it in their native language, just to see how the game works in the beginning.
I hope everybody sees my point, my english isn\'t the best, too.
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I don\'t think it\'d be possible or plausible to have multiple language choices at the same time, you\'d have to not only maintain the translations, but since it\'s all xml, the whole dataset (unless the translation is shorter or equal to the original, when you don\'t have to resize the widgets).
And rather than trying to translate it, just improve the usability. If a game isn\'t intuitive, it isn\'t much fun, now is it? There should be no need to know any commands at all (reminds me of linux: console vs gui debates).
OT:
I\'ve linked all the docs I know of:
PlaneShift Documentation (http://www.ps-mc.com/docs/index.php/Main_Page)
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Originally posted by lynx_lupo
... If a game isn\'t intuitive, it isn\'t much fun, now is it?...
So it is for people, who are not native english? I don\'t think so.
I think it is possible to try, and the difficulty is to find a way to make the game localized, but intuitive. And there are many who would just start working on it, if the community would accept it.
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lynx_lupo: you are right, it is of course not so easy to translate the game into multiple languages. but i think it is a blocker for some users to play the game if it is not in their native language. at least the interface and the commands. it surely depends on the language and how people are used to translated games, but i think this is a problem ps has to face in the nearer or farer future.
(reminds me of linux: console vs gui debates).
right, but in the meantime i have the impression that usability is something which becomes more and more important. and localization is one part of usability in my opinion. i wonder if kde or gnome would be accepted here in germany without a german translation.
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Let me repeat:
There should be no need to know any commands at all
and since anything but tells in ps are english, there is no need for translations. The usability is high enough that you don\'t have to type anything with a slash infront of it (the interface has most of what you need), so I don\'t see the point. Ok, this was about commands, but the other widget text faces the same problems as described in my previous post (albeit one can play even without any labels at all); this isn\'t as easy as gettextizing ps and then translating it all in a week. It\'d be very ugly, unless someone would extensively work on paws\'s scalability.
That\'s why the kde comparison is bad, ps is so simple you can effectively use it without any non-chatwindow text, while kde is this monster of text (100k+ strings iirc).
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There should be no need to know any commands at all
I think we will agree on that.
The fact is that text-command is easier to implemented that a graphical interface, and to have such interface as quick as a graphical is not always obvious (perf\'s pov and user\'s pov)
My aim is mainly to make a nolanguage command system (internaly). I mean the server doesn\'t have to care if commands are in english, in german or in something else.
The aim is a code with a minimum of string used for I/O, all these strings could be strored in extern files like xml\'s ones.
Even if my aim is not to translate the commands, this will help a lot to translate them. You will only to change one file, not a code file, so you won\'t have to compile again, else you would have to create different program for different language...
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You make no sense. :P
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I think he\'s just describing how various languages are implemented. You have the program in whatever language you want, and you pull the alternate language verions of stuff out of another file.
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While I\'ve been sceptical about this in the somewhat distant past, I do see a point. The problem of this suggesting that it\'s acceptable to speak non-english inside PS remains. However, on the upside, it is true that the more technical aspects, including these that are referring to how things are to be used (including pop-ups and tooltips) require deeper klnowledge of english than the common chatting does and, to make matters worse, are far less tolerant to makeshift / litera translations that another user would still be able to decipher, and unlike the GUI, can ask for clarification. Likewise, native comands may be more easy to recall than english ones if you\'re not good at english (though the only command in active, frequent use is /tell, anyway, the rest is way more conveniently accessed via macros or the GUI itself), though YMMV, obviously.
However, when my distro decided to localise the compiler messages, I went like \"WTH is that gibberish supposed mean?\" because the translation was, while pleasant to read, highly different and to me less clear than the english original. In fact, I usually prefer english text everywhere so it\'s consistent, and enabled the localisation only due to special characters that would otherwise break occasionally. In fact, games gave me a lot of exposure to english, and, while annoying at first, in retrospect that was a great thing. But seeing that there are (and there are) non-english sub-cultures in PS already (at least I\'ve rarely seen Zelphiriens members speak in public), w/o english GUI, I suppose the added harm won\'t be that great, though I may be wrong.
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Yes, there is a serious question that comes up: If the client is translated, would that make people who simply don\'t know any English play more? Which, unfortunately, is not a good thing. While these are perfectly decent people, most other people in the game would not be able to effectively interact with them. We\'d end up with separate overlapping games, which no one wants. (not to mention they\'d not be able to do quests, or anything else involving the non-translated parts of the game) So, translating the commands is entirely debatable. There are good sides and bad; there\'s no getting around that.
I guess the best option is to make the GUI more intuitive, without the need for as much text.
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Yes, people who aren\'t capable of speaking english at all would indeed be reduced to meaningless levelling. I was just pointing out that people with limited knowledge of english would be able to use PS better, and they\'d still be able to meaningfully interact with the game world.
A more intuitive GUI would serve the same purpose, though, and will be a better investment of time in the long run.
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At least someone agrees. :)
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That the client will be translated has already been discussed, and it\'s already underway.
This topic is only about the commands (those things starting with \"/\").
And I don\'t think that localized commands will attract more people who are not able to speak english.
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Yep, that pretty much sums it up. ;)
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Hello there,
I would be excited about this project. Not only because it would help people from all over the globe to enjoy PS but also because it would allow people not so fluent in english to understand the interface correctly.
I would like to help in this project as a translator. I have nearly no knowledge in coding however there will be huge volumes of text to be translated and that is where I can help.
I always wanted to contribute to the game and that would be a great way. I currently speak and write 5 languages which could be helpful:
-English
-French
-German
-Dutch
-Spanish
However I don\'t think that only the commands should be translated, but also the help content and other background info implemented in the client.
However people should be notified that they have to speak english in the broadcasted chats.
And maybe in time when there will be thousands of people from around the world playing planeshift and many people have donated servers we would be able to have localized servers.
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Actually, it\'s been stated before that even if we have multiple servers, we\'ll have them all connected and still have only one world. We don\'t want to divide up the community.
At the moment, the engine really isn\'t set up for translations. In fact, pretty much all the system messages are hardcoded. :/ So, it\'ll be a while before we can start translating everything, unfortunately.
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Originally posted by Aznakh
... I always wanted to contribute to the game and that would be a great way. I currently speak and write 5 languages which could be helpful ...
There are already some projects which are contributed to partial translations of the game. Take a look at:
http://www.planeshift.it/community_languages.html
I\'m sure you could help them.
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I think a good start would be translating the Player Guide (http://www.planeshift.it/guide/en/index.html).
The next step could be translating the help file, which is located in the data directory (data/help.xml). It is easy to download a localized help file and drop it into the data directory.
I\'m not that sure about the rest of the user interface and I do not like the idea about localized commands due to the reasons that I pointed out here (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=20256&boardid=23&page=1#7).
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The players guide has long since been translated into German. http://www.planeshift.it/guide/de/index.html Though, I\'m not sure how up-to-date it is. This is definitely the thing that would benefit the most from translations.