PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: fken on November 03, 2005, 10:34:28 pm
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for french speaking people, the french thread is the following : http://www.zelphira.com/planeshift/frphpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1384
To sum up:
Some newbies came to ps and play near harnquist trying to speak english... Then they realized they were french and start to speak french (in say chan).
Then people said french was forbidden in the game (at least in the say chan... and it\'s absolutly wrong as long as it\'s not in a general chan like auction or shout ones...).
The oldest french player (but still new in our fantastic world) answered (politely of course) that they were newbies and didnt known this rules...
Then people insult France and frenchi people saying a nuke attack against France would be a great idea, and to sum up: trying to create troubles...
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I am a moderator on the french planeshift community forum and I am wondering what I should do in this case... What should i answer to this player, how should i feel when i learn that there is already racism in a pre alpha game...
I finally choose to report that fact hoping our international community will accuse that kind of behaviours and will react against every form of racism and nationalism !
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another report from this thread : a gm (i have no name to quote) said say channel is for english only... I am sure there is a good reason this gm could gimme to explain why he re-invents the rules WITHOUT reading them or without reading the forum... This subject has been related a lot of time and GM still dunno the rules... it\'s a shame.
@Gholmyrr: your presence could be very useful on the french forum.
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if you dont want to open the subject another time, you could close the thread Moogie: I am not looking for non official answers.
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It goes without saying that we don\'t condone any of these sorts of statments. While it\'s true our NPC\'s only understand English how players talk to each other should be of no concern. If any of the GM\'s see this behaviour please do not tolerate it and make sure people know that it will not be tolerated.
The fact that we are free and anybody can download it we can attract some pretty imature people. I am hoping that those type of people will be invovled with things like guilds/groups and eventually move on to other games when they realize their antics arn\'t gaining the attention they so desire...
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So non-english is allowed in /say now? That is pretty bad. Obviously the statements referred to aren\'t acceptable, but still there is nothing \"wrong\" about having not only /auction and /shout in english only but also /say.
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I would like to propose:
There is a \"Group\" function. When I know that all the players I usually talk to, speak the same non-english language, we agree to create a group where we freely can speak our language, to make sure that other players are not confused by our talk they don\'t understand.
But in a public place, where many people meet, and you cannot know which native language each player has, you should at least try to speak english because this is the most often used language in computer topics.
No one needs to be ashamed of low knowledge, most players I know try to help from vocabulary (and meaning) over grammar to spelling.
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Probably loosely related: There has been a thread about creating a brazilian-only guild... A bit beyond the \"Group\" idea, obviously not that useful.
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P.S.: Speaking about \"nuking a country\" only because you don\'t understand foreign talk is not tolerable - I can only agree. I just hope that newcomers are able to be tolerant and cooperative, as we will try to be. But specific members are stubborn, we can\'t avoid that completely. We could only ignore them before we get mad about it.
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Planeshift is coded for english, but I see no rational reason why other languages should be disallowed in the public chat. There have been occasions where I\'ve helped out francophone players and I didn\'t think twice about it. Maybe I\'m so open minded because I\'m Canadian, but I\'m to agree with acraig that the people who were rude were completely out of line.
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Yes, multiple languages is just fine. Because it is so much role-play friendly to see four different characters, of different races, of different cultures, of different parts of Yliakum to meet in one place and talk in same uncommon language without any problems. While the same won\'t work for some other two characters that were raised up together. Basically we were gifted by the gods with some random languages in the moment we were born.
Sarcasm is fun.
Oh, and people shouldn\'t use words \"racism\" and \"nationalism\" when they don\'t know what those mean. That\'s helluva annoying.
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I myself don\'t mind people speaking other langauages in /say channel, but Planeshift is coded for english, and the majority of the community is english, so it at least is a sign of courtesy to speak english in public channels.
You can do whatever you want in group/guild channel or via tell anyways.
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So non-english is allowed in /say now? That is pretty bad. Obviously the statements referred to aren\'t acceptable, but still there is nothing \"wrong\" about having not only /auction and /shout in english only but also /say.
I think people just be free to /say in whatever language they want if Its a group of people standing around. The reason is they are\'nt forcing people to come up to them and start talking to them, are they. Plus, /tell and /guild are a bit OOC, since they are global. Then again, perhaps thats the point?
I myself don\'t mind people speaking other langauages in /say channel, but Planeshift is coded for english, and the majority of the community is english, so it at least is a sign of courtesy to speak english in public channels.
Yes, it is made for english, and the majority of the community are english, but these are things that work against them. The fact that everythings english Is a problem for them, not us, So im of the opinion if they still want to do it, well go ahead. Perhaps I draw the line at /shout and /auction, but If they\'re standing around in a group of people who all know french.... meh.
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I think you are mistaking terms \"role-playing game\" with \"chat program\", Ram.
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To make my previous statement clearer:
If you are in a crowd and want to be understood, try english first.
If you are a group near a crowd and try not to distract/disturb others, try english.
But if you are unlikely to confuse too many passengers, be free to speak as you like.
Just crowded places (like the front of the forge, or the full tavern), may be places where you should consider that many different languages may not help to understand each others. Part of the role-playing fun is that others may invade into your talk, suddenly take part of the ongoing plot. Talking in a rather uncommon language is like keeping others out of your own game.
I caught myself considering those people selfish when they talk e.g. in french or other languages while running through a circle being in a roleplay discussion - I won\'t speak for others, but that does spoil my fun. I wouldn\'t like it if people make their own \"subculture\" just by refusing to talk in a way that everyone might understand them, this reminds me painfully on \"islamism vs. islam\". -- Sure, I can see the potential: What a structured population! But IMHO, disadvantages seem to prevail for my PoV.
And running through a circle of people, or breaking in with \"already answered in the Player Guide\" kind of questions, is another point of \"unexperienced behaviour\"... :rolleyes:
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I personally would prefer it if english was the only publically spoken language in PS. Even though I understand Dutch, French, German and English very decently and can express myself well enough in those languages as well I find that a multilingual gaming environment works disruptive.
Here it is just talks about French but when people start speaking French publically other languages will follow. There will be groups speaking German, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, ... People with the same native tongue are going to start grouping together, you\'ll get more incidents like the one that started this ... ethnic groups going up against eachother. People can easily exclude others by simply refusing to talk a language the others can understand. I\'ve seen this and many more things take place on, mostly European, servers in several other games. Personally I always run to the American servers even though I am European simply because of the unified language front.
English as one main language doesn\'t exclude anyone that wouldn\'t be excluded from obtaining the game in the first place. It gives everyone a certain anonymity towards their cultural backgrounds and thus prevents incidents to a degree. It doesn\'t require people needing to switch back and forth between languages and is just easier for everyone.
In short one language creates one big community and it makes roleplaying much easier and more fun in my opinion.
This is all about forms of public chat, where any person can listen in on the conversation. Of course in private chat forms you could talk any language you want as long as the select few you\'re talking with agree.
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i would normally be asking people to use english for public chat (ive just always thought it was a rule or at least a standard sort of agreement) and asking them to to either use /tell or form a group for other languages, though if its a french or spanish speaking person i will normally try to help them using public (in their language) so...
also many of the older players who dont speak english as theri native use private chat for their own languages unless there are any others around.
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I personaly have no problem with people using other languages in PS i think it actually strengthens the rp enviroment, In the real world people use many languages so why not in PS, it is unrealistic to think all across yliakum would speak but one language.
If you where to stand in a bar in rl and a couple next to you where speaking in french you would not complain to them that you cannot understand, in rl everybody is free to speak there native language and enjoy there own culture so why should PS be any diffrent.
What im saying is in rl you will encounter people of varied languages that is the way life is people of diffrent cultures living together if you where to move to another country you would not expect otheres to treat you with disrespect for using your native toungue so PS sould be no diffrent.
Im all for multiple languges but thats just my opinion.
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Originally posted by colonel_vanderbal
If you where to stand in a bar in rl and a couple next to you where speaking in french you would not complain to them that you cannot understand
seeing as its in a bar you would prolly have been drinking, its quite likely that i would start trying to speak french at people...
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When i m in England i speak french in public place, and when speaking to a policeman or a merchant i do it in english ... and i would never shout something in french in public place
I do the same in PS
/say is as you wish but i\' d rather in english
The only thing that choc me is about the nuclear bomb ...
A well known iranien said the same thing about a country, remember ? All the world points his finger on him now
If you were Joking about this, i don t take a nuclear bomb as a joke, how mature are you to joke about that ?
I hope the concerned person will read this and know that /say wasn\'t the problem
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Originally posted by colonel_vanderbal
I personaly have no problem with people using other languages in PS i think it actually strengthens the rp enviroment, In the real world people use many languages so why not in PS, it is unrealistic to think all across yliakum would speak but one language.
If you where to stand in a bar in rl and a couple next to you where speaking in french you would not complain to them that you cannot understand, in rl everybody is free to speak there native language and enjoy there own culture so why should PS be any diffrent.
What im saying is in rl you will encounter people of varied languages that is the way life is people of diffrent cultures living together if you where to move to another country you would not expect otheres to treat you with disrespect for using your native toungue so PS sould be no diffrent.
Im all for multiple languges but thats just my opinion.
I\'ll consider this as valid argument if you tell me how this situation is possible:
A kran, ynnwn and lemur who come from different part of Yliakum talk in a tavern in a non-english language (how is that possible?). Suddenly role-played very close brother of the lemur comes into the tavern and doesn\'t understand what his brother is saying (how is that possible?).
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We could say that english is the common language in Yialkum ^^ and that some Kran, Lemur ect ... didn\'t learn it
We can considere it in Rp that they didn\'t learn the common language
it could be happen no?
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Originally posted by Bebel
We could say that english is the common language in Yialkum ^^ and that some Kran, Lemur ect ... didn\'t learn it
We can considere it in Rp that they didn\'t learn the common language
it could be happen no?
No because that would be inconvenient for all the people who want everyone to speak their language. It would also make evesdropping so much more difficult. It would also not give these people something to whine about.
We have 13 races (14 if separate the dwarfen clans) and yet we can only have 1 language. Each of these races are expected to have different RP origins, but they all manage to speak the exact same language.
The fact that there is any arguing/debating over this is a bit childish. The world is populated by different people, do you feel distracted/hurt/inable to continue with your normal life every time you hear someone speak in a foreign language? Probably not, but for some reason you cannot continue in a game the same way.
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Originally posted by Bebel
We could say that english is the common language in Yialkum ^^ and that some Kran, Lemur ect ... didn\'t learn it
We can considere it in Rp that they didn\'t learn the common language
it could be happen no?
So a kran and a lemur wouldn\'t be able to speak common language, but they would be able to communicate in different one, because lemurs and krans have same origins, right?
No.
Originally posted by Askr
We have 13 races (14 if separate the dwarfen clans) and yet we can only have 1 language. Each of these races are expected to have different RP origins, but they all manage to speak the exact same language.
So one lemur can speak english, another german, another french, and yet another spanish. And it\'s all within their racial origins? And funny coincidence that other races would have the exact same languages in their origins too...
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Precisely, not to mention the fact that the races of Yliakum have at least 750 full years of living together, mixed and even half of them are married to a member of another race. So how would it be possible that just out of the blue someone pops up without knowing the common tongue? How is it possible that the native tongues would even have survived in any but rare niece / historical use?
Originally posted by Askr
No because that would be inconvenient for all the people who want everyone to speak their language. It would also make evesdropping so much more difficult. It would also not give these people something to whine about.
No, it would be inconvenient for those who can\'t be bothered to at least try to speak in the language of the community. Those who can\'t be bothered to integrate themselves. Yes, it\'s just like IRL: given a sufficiently large population of different cultural background, what happens is not that they will integrate, thereby enriching the society by mixing their culture with the local one, but instead form a subculture, completely separate from the local one, which will at best create an enclave, and most commonly create hostility.
So no, it isn\'t the community that has to adapt to your laziness, it is you who have to adapt to the community standards. The language requirement is there for a very good reason: to allow maximum interaction between the maximum number of players. That is why english was chosen. Did you know that PS originates from Italy? Do you also know that the italians happen to speak italian, not english? So it is quite obvious that they didn\'t chose english for their convenience.
Originally posted by Askr
We have 13 races (14 if separate the dwarfen clans) and yet we can only have 1 language. Each of these races are expected to have different RP origins, but they all manage to speak the exact same language.
Care to elaborate on the thirteenth and fourteenth race, please? I must have missed them in the setting and the race page...
Anyway, the reasons for the races speaking a common tongue have been explained above.
Originally posted by Askr
The fact that there is any arguing/debating over this is a bit childish. The world is populated by different people, do you feel distracted/hurt/inable to continue with your normal life every time you hear someone speak in a foreign language? Probably not, but for some reason you cannot continue in a game the same way.
Yes, yes, and you would be just as happy if you were to negotiate something, or learn from someone refusing to speak the language of the place you are in, hmm? IRL, when people don\'t talk your language, it doesn\'t matter because
1) you have not only one small chat window that is cluttered up by the spam (yes, it is spam, because there is no way you can ever get any useful info from it)
2) you are not there for the sole purpose of interacting with them. PS is solely about the interaction of the players by means of their chars in a roleplay way. It\'s really obvious that the first and foremost requirement is a common language that the maximum of players speak. It is, in fact, childish to insist on not adhering to the common sense agreement. :tdown:
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Originally posted by fken
This subject has been related a lot of time
if you dont want to open the subject another time, you could close the thread Moogie: I am not looking for non official answers.
finally the subject has been opened once again :)
@acraig: thanks for your answer. but i hope you wont send your trouble makers to oncemmorpg...
@Drakklar: i surely know well whats nationalism is... Especially because even 60years after the WW2 and 90 years after the WW1, you still can see WW consequences in my country... And moreover because i was lucky enough to speak with some nationalists people... It was a soooo useful experience... hmmm no in fact they were awfully close minded... I may teach you what\'s racism is too... especially because of my origins and because when i was 7 i learnt my origins violently...
@all: I dunno if planeshift has been coded for english... In my developper point of view, I program for everyone. it\'s international and then, as i admit that english is the most common language, I recognize that I would like everyone speak english.
Personnaly if i still play ps and mmorpg on international servers its only because i would like this experience help me to learn: to learn how to speak english, german, maybe other languages and to learn the others culture... Or... it could be a very boring experience...
There is no way to force people to speak english:
1) because newbies are totally lost and are allowed to be welcome not insulted. For the one who everytime spoke english and who don\'t understand just imagine you come on a french server (I must precize that it\'s not unrealistic because 1 or 2 centuries ago, french was the common language) and imagine that french people come and say that your language is forbiden... I am sure at least americans would feel outraged...
2) because communities must be able to be created. It\'s not because you think there must be a melting pot that everyone must do what you want. (BTW I know a l2 server where people are everytime waging wars between russians and europeans/americans... it\'s really stupid)...
3) For some people speaking english is not as easy as some people are believing.
4) you must respect others languages
Moreover, look at LOTR: there are a lot of languages and A common one: people are free to speak the language they want
Some of you said there is a problem when people speak in a non english language while you are rping... I think these ones forget one thing... it\'s not because it\'s french or foreigner language that it\'s annoying: it\'s annoying because there is a group of persons who are speaking and rping while some others open other subjects. The fact it\'s another language really doesnt matter...
And that\'s why, when a newbie speak with me while I am rping with an international group, I go away to not annoy my neighbourghood. It\'s, in my mind, the only rule of the /say channel (and moreover it\'s already included in the rules thanks to the phrase \"respect each others\"...).
I wanna add someone said most of us are english... I dont agree! The most of the ps players speak english for sure, but they arent english... I think it was what you meant when you wrote that but i wanted to precize.
BTW, I have a lot of work and I surely wont be able to visit the planeshift forum like i did before so do not worry if i dont answer...
NB: I wasnt only speaking about french... I was speaking about every languages.
Be pacifist and your relationship will be sweeter! And moreover, dont allow racism, nationalism, or any other things like that in your neighbourghood: you are all responsible of the ps kingdom, if you want a good atmosphere dont let people destroy it.
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Fken, no you don\'t. Check a dictionary (http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=nationalism) or something, because not every form of nationalism is a bad thing. You\'re talking about the extreme kinds of it.
Moreover, look at LOTR: there are a lot of languages and A common one: people are free to speak the language they want
Did you even read my and Seytra\'s posts?
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Originally posted by Draklar
So one lemur can speak english, another german, another french, and yet another spanish. And it\'s all within their racial origins? And funny coincidence that other races would have the exact same languages in their origins too...
Yep that is a funny coincidence.
There is absolutely no useful history given to determine what languages belong to what races. There are no rules set that state that English is the only language to be used in open chat. The only complaints here are because people don\'t want their RP/chat interfered with because of foreign languages being used. Boohoo....let me shed a tear.
I think the issue is pretty much summed up with the following:
Originally posted by acraig
While it\'s true our NPC\'s only understand English how players talk to each other should be of no concern.
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\"So a kran and a lemur wouldn\'t be able to speak common language, but they would be able to communicate in different one, because lemurs and krans have same origins, right? \" Draklar
Something fun but real :
My mother is cambodian ( lemur? ), my father is italian (diabolo?), and i dont speak cambodian nether italian but i speak french ( dermorian?) and english (the common language )
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Originally posted by Askr
I think the issue is pretty much summed up with the following:
Originally posted by acraig
While it\'s true our NPC\'s only understand English how players talk to each other should be of no concern.
Think again.
For a statement to sum up anything, it has to come as a result of a discussion. So far the argumentation here showed many reasons against using of multiple languages, whilst argumentation for it is not much better than, let me quote: \"Boohoo....let me shed a tear.\". Very clever, by the way.
Bebel: Then I don\'t know how your family works if you don\'t speak same language. Also, shall I assume that other cambodians (lemurs) don\'t understand your mother, whilst other italians (diabolis) don\'t understand your father?
Because that\'s basically how it is when one lemur speaks french, while other german.
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Originally posted by Seytra
Precisely, not to mention the fact that the races of Yliakum have at least 750 full years of living together, mixed and even half of them are married to a member of another race. So how would it be possible that just out of the blue someone pops up without knowing the common tongue? How is it possible that the native tongues would even have survived in any but rare niece / historical use?
I take it you know little about linguistics. And since you don\'t I would gather it would probably not be wise to try and base an argument upon linguistics when you know little about it. 750 years is not sufficient, even in a closed environment, for languages to disappear. Not to mention that 750 years means squat when we have no lifespans for the races.
No, it would be inconvenient for those who can\'t be bothered to at least try to speak in the language of the community. Those who can\'t be bothered to integrate themselves. Yes, it\'s just like IRL: given a sufficiently large population of different cultural background, what happens is not that they will integrate, thereby enriching the society by mixing their culture with the local one, but instead form a subculture, completely separate from the local one, which will at best create an enclave, and most commonly create hostility.
So no, it isn\'t the community that has to adapt to your laziness, it is you who have to adapt to the community standards. The language requirement is there for a very good reason: to allow maximum interaction between the maximum number of players. That is why english was chosen. Did you know that PS originates from Italy? Do you also know that the italians happen to speak italian, not english? So it is quite obvious that they didn\'t chose english for their convenience.
My laziness? Your arguments are both inane and unfounded. The community doesn\'t have to adapt to anything. I don\'t believe I stated that it did. Another baseless statement on your part.
You are not expected to enter into their conversation if you don\'t understand the language. If you are incapable of managing your emotions so as not to become hostile to those who speak a foreign tongue, well then that speaks more about you than it does any actual problems.
Did you know that your final questions are again absolutely useless. I gathered it originated, or at least had current home in Italy because of the web address. What that has to do with this conversation, I don\'t know.
I think you just like to see yourself post on these boards.
Care to elaborate on the thirteenth and fourteenth race, please? I must have missed them in the setting and the race page...
Anyway, the reasons for the races speaking a common tongue have been explained above.
1. Xacha
2. Ylians
3. Nolthrir
4. Dermorians
5. Dwarves
6. Lemurs
7. Kran
8. Diaboli
9. Enkidukai
10. Klyros
11. Ynnwns
Okay so I miss counted. I hope your entire point didn\'t rest upon that...
No they haven\'t been explained above. There actually have been no explanations that carry any weight, other than the one given by ACraig. Just because you make comments and give poorly thought reasons, does not make an explanation.
Yes, yes, and you would be just as happy if you were to negotiate something, or learn from someone refusing to speak the language of the place you are in, hmm?
The language of the place you are in?
What language would that be? Just out of curiosity? I guess you mean the place I am in -- were I there say several hundred years ago before the world became such a global community. Another baseless example.
IRL, when people don\'t talk your language, it doesn\'t matter because
1) you have not only one small chat window that is cluttered up by the spam (yes, it is spam, because there is no way you can ever get any useful info from it)
Here come those tears again. You can\'t RP it because you don\'t speak the language. Its in your window but doesn\'t pertain directly to you, so its spam. Get used to it...if you don\'t like that you might have to interact with others perhaps you should be playing a single player game. Then you won\'t have to worry about the fact that not everyone in the game is there for you.
2) you are not there for the sole purpose of interacting with them. PS is solely about the interaction of the players by means of their chars in a roleplay way. It\'s really obvious that the first and foremost requirement is a common language that the maximum of players speak. It is, in fact, childish to insist on not adhering to the common sense agreement. :tdown:
They are not there for the sole purpose of interacting with you. They are here to interact with other players in the PS game environment. Not you alone. If you can\'t meet them halfway, then they sure as hell don\'t have to meet you all the way.
I don\'t remember having to agree to speaking English when I signed up to play PS. Therefore it is not actually an agreement on my part, and therefore not on anyone else\'s part. It is simply a wish on your part. And the fact that you feel everyone must assist in making your wish come true is really the only childishness I see so far.
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to Draklar :
Its because my parents met in Cambodia and the comon language was french (french colonie)
That s why i dont speak my parents language
they learn me french and not their\'s
And now i live in france ^^
And after i learn english at shcool
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Alright, I didn\'t read most of this...But I think that there should be a server for each language
That way, it will still \"seem\" real, without people speaking two languages, at least until we are only allowed to speak...Yliakiam language (I wouldn\'t know the name of it) for roleplaying...
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Although I am very new to the game and forum, I will venture to give an opinion here.
No one language is better than another, and I certainly don\'t advocate DISALLOWING all but one language, but I play MMORPG\'s not for the gear or money or the competition, I play the games to meet and do things with other people. I do not care if you are French, German, Turkish, or Chinese. I would in fact be more likely to spend time with you if you were, so I could get to know you.
What I fear about the use of multiple languages is that people will naturally segragate themselves by language. I WANT to converse and RP with people of other cultures and countrys, so I can learn, and grow, both as a character in the game, and as a person.
I will not be able to do that if someone is speaking a language I cannot understand.
I admire those of you whose native language is not English, as it is a difficult language. It IS however the most commonly used COMMON language today, and so the best for use in public forums.
Conversations in /say or /group are a non-issue, its the public conversations that I am talking about, and the distance that will grow between people based on LANGUAGE that I worry about.
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I just thought of something...How about in PS setup (or when you first download Planeshift) it will ask you what you want the language translated into, that way we can all understand eachother better
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You want PS to have a translator? You know how such things work? They don\'t work at all x.x
Would be funny to see english being translated to itself though... Since some languages have same words as english, only with different meaning.
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Thats why we have different language translating choices, something like this
English: Nothing, Spanish, French, etc. (scroll bar for language choices)
French: Nothing, English, Spanish, etc. (scroll bar for language choices)
Maybe not the word \"nothing\" but maybe \"same\" something like that anyway
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Originally posted by Draklar
For a statement to sum up anything, it has to come as a result of a discussion. So far the argumentation here showed many reasons against using of multiple languages, whilst argumentation for it is not much better than, let me quote: \"Boohoo....let me shed a tear.\". Very clever, by the way.
Actually it does not have to be a result of any discussion, but that is cute. Argumentation against using multiple languages does not really matter. Those are the personal preferences of a few who have little to no bearing upon anything anyone else does or says.
Argument for the use of multiple languages has been sufficient. There are speakers of multiple languages here and if they choose to speak to each other in their native tongue, then so be it. As long as there are no rules to state otherwise, and no contractual agreements, your complaints mean next to nothing.
If you don\'t agree, get rules instituted. Then you won\'t have to complain anymore, you can just have the people removed from game. In all likelihood they probably wouldn\'t play the game in the first place, knowing that it was for English speaking people only.
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I don\'t think you understand...
If there is same word in english and some other language, how would the translator know which language is being used?
And like I said, translators don\'t work too well. Try using one...
Askr: Find a single post from me where I complain about people using different language. I simply understand that some people may be annoyed by it and state my opinion about it. You know, thinking about others instead of going \"Boohoo....let me shed a tear.\"?
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Askr: Find a single post from me where I complain about people using different language. I simply understand that some people may be annoyed by it and state my opinion about it. You know, thinking about others instead of going \"Boohoo....let me shed a tear.\"?
So you choose to think about those \'others\' that are worried about someone speaking a different language than them.
I have chosen to think about those people who speak a different language and who are being asked to not speak their native tongue because it might make someone hostile or create some gulf between the players or somehow interfere with the RP of a world that has absolutely no provision for language (either RP or OOC).
Perhaps what you are implying is that the only people who are worth thinking about are those that speak English, since you seem to think that I am not thinking of others.
You know what annoys me? People who think that their opinions and ideas are the only ones of value. People who think that their time is somehow more worthy than the next persons. People who think that everyone in this game world should conform to how they think the world should be RPed, believed, interacted with, and so on and so forth. I\'m sure you get the idea.
Out of everything that I have said in my posts, the only thing you retained was \"boohoo...let me shed a tear\".
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Askr, english isn\'t my native language, I\'m not from an english speaking country. But even though when I joined Planeshift, my english skills weren\'t all that good and I had many problems with expressing myself in a correct manner, by now I learned to use it with much bigger fluence. So for one I don\'t even see why there is such a must to use a different language.
But let me move on to reason why I stand for the people who are against multiple languages. Besides the reasoning that I stated in my earlier posts, here\'s a moral one. If there\'s a \"higher spheres\" party, with fancy clothes and classical music being played in the background... I won\'t go there dressed in my usual clothes and turn on some metal or other type of alike music. Hell yeah, I like it, but being disruptive to the global community by doing something of my liking, when I don\'t really have to do it, is being rude to say the least. When joining a community, I believe one should do his best to avoid doing such things and try to make himself seen for the good sides, for bringing the state of community a bit further. Making yourself look like \"the guy who speaks french\" won\'t do that, it can at best cause some struggles, like the ones we can see now. The fault doesn\'t lie on the side of people who complain. It was just fine before, it would be fine if others didn\'t use other languages. And they don\'t have to. If they came in here, I assume they can speak english. Otherwise I don\'t see a point in joining a english-based community where the main point is to role-play. Role-playing is much harder when you can\'t communicate. Thus the only reason I see for joining such thing, is the game. But that goes under hack&slash. Since mmorpg\'s without social side are basically that.
In the end I think people who use different languages are just deciding to speak in their native one, because it\'s easier. And at the moment when they decide to do so, they don\'t think about how it could influence the rest of community, if someone might get annoyed because his chatbox gets filled with words he can\'t understand. They think about themselves, because it is so much easier to just use their native language, than try to communicate in english. Just as if they didn\'t need to train it to be able to communicate well with others during further role-playing events.
Why it\'s fine for people to complain? They play this game for a while, they are a strong part of the community. They are doing just fine in it and enjoy their stay here. So why must they deal with every single annoyment that might be caused by people who are seemingly too lazy to try and use language, which would be understood by all the others? Like I said, they don\'t need to use their native language, as they surely know english (or not, but yeah...). All the other people don\'t have a choice. They are forced to hear things they won\'t understand in any way.
Originally posted by Askr
Out of everything that I have said in my posts, the only thing you retained was \"boohoo...let me shed a tear\".
Yes, and it\'ll probably be the thing I\'ll remember you for.
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Can\'t we all get along?
(1) There\'s a translator that will translate any language to any other language. http://www.dictionary.com
(2) If you don\'t like seeing the French talking in the chat box move away. (it really shouldn\'t bother anyone unless you want it to...which to me seems silly)
(3) There is a place on the forums that you can voice your concerns on the wish list. So make some wishes about it....
(4) How many more chat boxes do we need? If I spoke French and wanted to talk with someone in french I would group with them. Only out of respect for those who do not want the chat box filled with a language that they might not be able to understand.
(5)If I was a newbie however then I might want to speak my first language in the chat box to find others who might speak the same tongue. To this I say be friggin patient, really what harm does it do? Personally I think it adds a realism to the game.
(6) Lets not harbor prejudice and as a community show we can honour all nations and languages.
These are my thoughts and comments on the situation, but I really want it understood that to tell people they cannot speak their own language is like telling someone they cannot be themselves, which to me is VERY wrong.
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I think all this is ... sort of pointless. I assume that one comming as this stage agrees to speak english. I assume that when someone speak in an other language it\'s OOC.
but more than everything else, I assume that once PS will reach version final 1, they\'ll be a set of translations made, and other langages server, because it\'s all under GPL. who would do that ? I\'m french, and I\'m fine with translating PS client in french, even the server. at least it will avoid me to see my country insulted.
anyway, I\'ll keep playing on the english speaking server, and in english...
Edit: ok, I speak \"something I\'d like to be english\" rather than proper english, but you understood me so ...
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Originally posted by Askr
I take it you know little about linguistics. And since you don\'t I would gather it would probably not be wise to try and base an argument upon linguistics when you know little about it. 750 years is not sufficient, even in a closed environment, for languages to disappear. Not to mention that 750 years means squat when we have no lifespans for the races.
Hmm, quite interesting. How come then that in America everyone is capable of speaking english, given that
1) America is comparatively recent and
2) the settlers in America were from lots of different countries, with lots of different languages?
3) The mixing in America isn\'t nearly as thorough as in Yliakum?
Originally posted by Askr
My laziness? Your arguments are both inane and unfounded. The community doesn\'t have to adapt to anything. I don\'t believe I stated that it did. Another baseless statement on your part.
Well, your statement doesn\'t even have any claim besides \"I\'m right\" and \"You\'re stupid\". Which is a bit sad.
Originally posted by Askr
You are not expected to enter into their conversation if you don\'t understand the language. If you are incapable of managing your emotions so as not to become hostile to those who speak a foreign tongue, well then that speaks more about you than it does any actual problems.
Lol, I\'m perfectly able to control my emotions, unlike you, it seems, judging from your wording.
Seriously, yes, I am not supposed to enter their conversation, eh? Nice, given that yes, RP is about communication. So you think it is a good idea to simply ignore realism for the purpose of being lazy? Interestingly, your \"point\" of the different languages being RP has vanished, yet you still seem to believe that it is somehow tolerable nontheless.
Originally posted by Askr
Did you know that your final questions are again absolutely useless. I gathered it originated, or at least had current home in Italy because of the web address. What that has to do with this conversation, I don\'t know.
That doesn\'t surprise me, as you seem to be in general unwilling to actually think about the arguments and what people are trying to say with them.
You came accross as believing that PS uses english as official language because the ones who make it are natively english speaking, and therefore not having any reason besides their convenience. Your claim that other languages are OK in PS only makes sense if you don\'t see the true reasons for the choice, which I have explained: maximum number of people able to communicate in that language.
So it has a lot to do with this conversation, as it should have served to prove that there actually is a reason why it is not italian, which would be natural.
Therefore, quite obviously it follows that english has something over the other languages.
And this means that english should be the language of choice, just as it happens to be.
Originally posted by Askr
I think you just like to see yourself post on these boards.
I think you are lacking points, maturity and willingness to integrate. I\'d even go as far as to wonder if you might be a troll, just there to stir up trouble?
Originally posted by Askr
Okay so I miss counted. I hope your entire point didn\'t rest upon that...
Hmm, to find out, you might wish to read it some time, maybe? But in case you\'re lazy: no, it didn\'t. However, your miscounting emphasizes your seeming lack of knowledge of the PS background.
Originally posted by Askr
No they haven\'t been explained above. There actually have been no explanations that carry any weight, other than the one given by ACraig. Just because you make comments and give poorly thought reasons, does not make an explanation.
Well, the fact that you don\'t want them to carry weight doesn\'t mean they don\'t. If anything, the reasons you have presented were what should be called \"poorly thought out\", which can be seen by how easily they have been ripped to shreds by everyone.
Originally posted by Askr
Yes, yes, and you would be just as happy if you were to negotiate something, or learn from someone refusing to speak the language of the place you are in, hmm?
The language of the place you are in?
What language would that be? Just out of curiosity? I guess you mean the place I am in -- were I there say several hundred years ago before the world became such a global community. Another baseless example.
Hmm, the tactic of adding \"Another baseless example\" or variations of this seems to be a major fad... it\'s certainly easier than bringing up actual arguments, so I guess that\'s why you resort to using it.
Anyway, this quite obviously is not restricted to any particular place. The points to take are:
1) Place where your reason to be is communicating with the people there
2) several people there are unwilling of talking in the agreed upon official language
3) because of that you are unable to fulfill your goal -communicating-
4) the place is not in some medieval time, but here, today, in PS, where it just happens to be that
1) Your reason to be there is RolePlay, which equates to communicating with the people in PS
2) several people there are unwilling of talking in the agreed upon official language
3) because of that you are unable to fulfill your goal -communicating-, which is what RP is
4) this example is an almost perfect, and thus a highly relevant comparison to the situation we are discussing.
Therefore you dismissing it as baseless cannot be explained by logic.
Originally posted by Askr
Here come those tears again. You can\'t RP it because you don\'t speak the language. Its in your window but doesn\'t pertain directly to you, so its spam. Get used to it...
Here comes the immaturity again, paired with gross inability to read properly...
It\'s not spam because it doesn\'t directly pertain to me. It is spam because there is almost noone who can actually get anything out of it. It floods the screen, thereby reducing the amount of proper information conveyed. It\'s parasitic, unwanted and annoying: spam.
Originally posted by Askr
if you don\'t like that you might have to interact with others perhaps you should be playing a single player game. Then you won\'t have to worry about the fact that not everyone in the game is there for you.
You know that I find this highly amusing.
Wasn\'t it you who said the following?
Originally posted by Askr
You are not expected to enter into their conversation if you don\'t understand the language.
Now isn\'t the contradiction funny? Especially given that yes indeed my point was that I am here solely to communicate with others? So may I ask how it is 1) anything but rude to purposefully prevent me from fulfilling that goal, which is, by chance, the sole reason why PS was created: to facilitate roleplay?
You see, if you think that these unwilling to adopt the community\'s language are somehow right in not wanting me or others interacting with them by using their language as barrier, then wouldn\'t your \"go singleplayer\" argument be more well targeted at them instead of me?
Is it furthermore not funny how you accuse me of being unwilling to interact with them while it is them who are excluding me from interacting with them?
Oh, and before you go \"The other players aren\'t there for you!\" again: What are they there for, then? If you abstract the concept \"me\" to \"other players\", which is completely valid, given that I am merely one example player, and any other player would be in the exact same situation as I am, then you arrive at the necessary conclusion that in fact all players in PS are there to provide an option for others to interact with them. So therefore by entering PS, you are indeed promising to allow that interaction for others. Therefore everyone in PS is there for me, just as everyone, including me, is there for everyone else.
Originally posted by Askr
They are not there for the sole purpose of interacting with you. They are here to interact with other players in the PS game environment. Not you alone. If you can\'t meet them halfway, then they sure as hell don\'t have to meet you all the way.
As I elaborated above, \"me\" is merely a placeholder for \"anyone\". About meeting them halfway... how am I supposed to do that? Learn their language, mayhaps? So now it suddenly is the community who has to adapt to each oddball player who thinks there is no need to conform? You can\'t be serious.
I don\'t see them trying to meet the community even a tiny little bit on the way, BTW. You see, I have no problem helping them by phrasing things less complex and making shorter, simpler sentences. However, if they can\'t be bothered to even try to communicate in english, then I\'m sorry, it is not my obligation to meet them the full way, not even halfway. It\'s always the newcomer who needs to go the greatest part of the way. Why? Because a community isn\'t feasible otherwise.
Originally posted by Askr
I don\'t remember having to agree to speaking English when I signed up to play PS. Therefore it is not actually an agreement on my part, and therefore not on anyone else\'s part. It is simply a wish on your part. And the fact that you feel everyone must assist in making your wish come true is really the only childishness I see so far.
Ah, yes, you are obviously one of the people who insist on doing things unless a court rules against it. Rude, to say the least. You are ignorant of the concept of \"etiquette\", or unwilling / incapable of applying it.
Entering a place where english is the language of choice and refusing to speak english there is obviously bad. And it is the reason why people start getting hostile towards those who are rude, and in the long run towards foreigners in general, because they have had to learn that a lot of them are rude. Interestingly, some nationalities seem to produce more of the rude \"I speak my language no matter what\" sort than others, and therefore it\'s no wonder that these nationalities are more easy spotted and also regarded less highly than others.
No, I don\'t agree with \"nuke France\", nor any other country. However, I agree with \"Kick out, without mercy, those who just want to stir up trouble and / or aren\'t mature anough to integrate\".
Matter of point of view:
When you go somewhere and indulge yourself in blatantly disregarding the local customs, rubbing it into everyone\'s faces, you\'ll feel cool, superior, because you can just do it and they can\'t do anything about it, and on top of it you can show them how much better your ways are. After all, they are just retarded or at best have no idea. And they need you.
When someone goes somewhere and indulges in blatantly disregarding the local customs, rubbing it into everyone\'s faces, that someone is making a fool of themselves, looking ignorant, rude and superstitious. They don\'t know better for lack manners, decency and understanding, and on top of it display inability of seeing behind the superficial. After all, that someone is a sad case of misguided pride. But that someone just doesn\'t know better, so you just shake your head.
@ SeinTex: There will AFAICS never be a non-english PS world. The reasons have been elaborated on other threads, but the essence is that there is supposed to be one, any exactly one Yliakum. Not several clone Yliakums.
The entire PS community is supposed to be in this single world.
Reason: Realism is better because \"there are other clones of this world\" rubs the fact that it\'s a game into everyones face. Also, it splits up the community, thereby reducing the overall RP by reducing chances of RP intersecting and growing from that.
Also, the GPL applies only to the source code. The actual content, which includes the GUI and the text as well as models and everything else is not GPL. It is under a highly restrictive license, in fact.
Translations are allowed, and have been done before, and I don\'t disagree with them since very good reasons have been pointed out in the other threads why a translation of client, Pleayers Guide and website are helpful and not disruptive. However, this does not remove the english-ness of the community, for the reasons I stated above.
However, I can\'t help but wonder:
Originally posted by SeinTex
at least it will avoid me to see my country insulted.
AFAICS the petty and ignorant outbursts of a few immature kids are something that could cause nothing more than a \"/report \".
However, the fact that this is so easily triggered also is a warning sign that there is, at least in part, a reason for the prejudices, though.
I\'m definitely not attacking you, as you obviously are reasonable in this respect. However, I think there is a mindset issue with many more french players than other nations. I am perfectly sure that the great majority of french players is absolutely fine. However, the ones who aren\'t are either more in numbers compared to other countries or more vocal / more extreme than others. And it\'s a sad but true fact that it only takes a few bad apples to give the entire lot a bad reputation.
This isn\'t an insult to your country. No country is perfect (I have some issues with my own). However, one shouldn\'t ignore or dismiss problems just because they affect one\'s country, that only feeds the prejudices.
Maybe that\'s more easy for me because I regard my nationality as something entirely random, something I did nothing to acquire. Yet, the failures of others from my country reflect back on me, so I can not only not ignore them, but must take them very seriously, trying to make them not happen whenever possible.
Edit: corrected quote attribution
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Originally posted by SeinTex
but more than everything else, I assume that once PS will reach version final 1, they\'ll be a set of translations made, and other langages server, because it\'s all under GPL.
You assume wrong - there will never be separate servers that will divide the world into sections for different languages, time zones, countries, etc. This has been an official development position for a long time :)
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Originally posted by SeinTex
but more than everything else, I assume that once PS will reach version final 1, they\'ll be a set of translations made, and other langages server, because it\'s all under GPL.
You assume wrong - there will never be separate servers that will divide the world into sections for different languages, time zones, countries, etc. This has been an official development position for a long time :)
I do not think it is the only mistake in that quote: can you tell me SeinTex who told you ps was all under GPL ? Arts are not! In fact only developping codes are under GPL...
EDIT : It is odd to seethat each time i post here i am creating another page...
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The fault doesn\'t lie on the side of people who complain. It was just fine before, it would be fine if others didn\'t use other languages. And they don\'t have to. If they came in here, I assume they can speak english. Otherwise I don\'t see a point in joining a english-based community where the main point is to role-play. Role-playing is much harder when you can\'t communicate. Thus the only reason I see for joining such thing, is the game. But that goes under hack&slash. Since mmorpg\'s without social side are basically that.
There is no fault. No one has done wrong, that is until there are rules instituted. Which if you are so concerned would probably be the best path to take.
In the end I think people who use different languages are just deciding to speak in their native one, because it\'s easier. And at the moment when they decide to do so, they don\'t think about how it could influence the rest of community, if someone might get annoyed because his chatbox gets filled with words he can\'t understand. They think about themselves, because it is so much easier to just use their native language, than try to communicate in english.
Again every player in this world is not here to please every other player. People are going to get annoyed regardless. That is part of life. And barring the few 11 year olds who come in here, I would expect that everyone here is mature enough to realize that the world does not exist solely for their satisfaction.
Why it\'s fine for people to complain? They play this game for a while, they are a strong part of the community. They are doing just fine in it and enjoy their stay here. So why must they deal with every single annoyment that might be caused by people who are seemingly too lazy to try and use language, which would be understood by all the others?
Why must they deal with it? Because they are not the sole possessers of this world. If they think they are, then they should be playing single player games. Laziness is not taking the annoyances in stride and expecting everyone else to make the effort to change, when they are not willing to do so themselves.
Like I said, they don\'t need to use their native language, as they surely know english (or not, but yeah...). All the other people don\'t have a choice. They are forced to hear things they won\'t understand in any way.
They don\'t need to use English either to enjoy the game. You might not be able to enjoy their company, but they don\'t need you either. As long as we are talking about \'need\'.
Other people do have a choice....ignore those people who aren\'t speaking English.
[/QUOTE]Yes, and it\'ll probably be the thing I\'ll remember you for.
[/QUOTE]
Impressive.
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Originally posted by Seytra
Hmm, quite interesting. How come then that in America everyone is capable of speaking english, given that
Have you been to America? Do you live there? Have you actually set foot outside?
1. Not everyone in America is capable of speaking English.
2. There are still lots of different languages spoken in America.
3. Mixing has little influence on this discussion since we have no information regarding generation gaps, life spans, or statistical information concerning racial dispersion over the history of Yliakum.
Well, your statement doesn\'t even have any claim besides \"I\'m right\" and \"You\'re stupid\". Which is a bit sad.
But your statement concerning my laziness and community adaptation is somehow meaningful? Again, did I state anywhere that you were \'stupid\'?
Lol, I\'m perfectly able to control my emotions, unlike you, it seems, judging from your wording.
What wording was that? Where you said I called you stupid? Hmmm... Was it where I brought up hostility? So far you are the only one bringing up emotions.
Seriously, yes, I am not supposed to enter their conversation, eh?....
RP is about communication. But RP with you is not a requirement. Ignore realism? It is a fantasy world, how far are you going to push realism? Realism is not everyone speaks the same language. Realism is not everyone gives a care if you want them to speak your language. Realism is not everyone wants you to be a part of their experiences. Realism is not \" go out of your way to make Seytra happy\". When you want to be realistic, let me know.
That doesn\'t surprise me, as you seem to be in general unwilling to actually think about the arguments and what people are trying to say with them.
Unwilling to think about the arguments? Hmmm.... I have thought about it from both sides. Its really a very simple argument actually.
You came accross as believing that PS ...
Not my belief at all. I know the reason why English is used.
Your claim that other languages are OK in PS only makes sense if ...
You are talking statistics now. Your reasoning has completely changed in two posts. And since you based these arguments on a false assumption, they are again baseless and useless in your defense.
So it has a lot to do with this conversation, as it should have served to prove that there actually is....
No really it doesn\'t support your stance at all. Even considering the sudden switch in reasoning behind your stance.
I think you are lacking points, maturity and willingness to integrate...
Willingness to integrate? I am speaking English. English is my native tongue. What are you talking about, willingness to integrate? Maturity? You mean like the maturity involved in becoming hostile because someone is not speaking English? Or the maturity involved in segregating myself from other players because they are not speaking English? What maturity are you referring to precisely? The maturity based upon the reasoning that \"because everyone else is doing it so should you\"....
Hmm, to find out, you might wish to read it some time, maybe? ...
Read what? Your stance? I\'ve read it. It went from emotional breakdowns (hostility towards non-English speaking people) and segregation (subcultures) to being one about statistical values of English speaking people. Somewhere in there you attempted to throw in the fact that the Devs have chosen English over their (one\'s, someone\'s) native Italian and are trying to use that as a basis to necessitate speaking English in-game. Regardless of the fact that no provision for such a necessity has been made. I have read it and I am fully aware of your stance.
I am also aware of the PS background. On the otherhand you seem to enjoy making assumptions based upon non-existent information and attribute those false assumptions to the PS world.
Well, the fact that you don\'t want them to carry weight doesn\'t mean they don\'t...
Everyone? Everyone consists of many more people than 3. I am sure you are aware of that little fact. It doesn\'t matter if I want them to carry weight or not. Until a rule is made, everything else is just wishful thinking.
Hmm, the tactic of adding \"Another baseless example\" ...
It is not a tactic. It is simply pointing out your poor examples. Actual arguments? \'The language of the place you are in\' is not an argument when there is no single language of the place I am in. It makes no sense and has no validity as an example in this discussion. Which is what makes it baseless.
Anyway, this quite obviously is not restricted to any particular place. The points to take are:
Your goal was to communicate with only one single person? If so, you are not contributing to the RP environment and might be considered to be stalking. Or is your goal to communicate with every person there? Because we both know the latter is not true. If I need to dig up quotes to prove so, I will.
4) this example is an almost perfect, and thus a highly relevant comparison to the situation we are discussing.
It is nowhere near perfect because:
a. Your goal is not to communicate with every single person but to RP in the PS environment. Communication is only allowable in an RP manner and therefore any normal daily communication with non-English speaking people would not take place anyway.
b. The language is not official until it is stated to be so in TOS, User Agreement or in the game information itself. Which no such statement exists.
c. This game has not been created for the sole purpose of you fulfilling your goal. It is created for the enjoyment of many people, of which you are but one.
Therefore you dismissing it as baseless cannot be explained by logic.
This statement is illogical.
Here comes the immaturity again, paired with gross inability to read properly...
That is humorous.
It\'s not spam because it doesn\'t directly pertain to me...
Almost noone....
It floods the screen...
The same could be said for you. Regardless, if you don\'t like it... use the ignore filter. Or does that fall under the issue of laziness?
Now isn\'t the contradiction funny?
That is not a contradiction.
Especially given that yes indeed my point was that I am here solely to communicate with others?...
Because they are not here for the sole purpose of assisting you in fulfilling your goal. This game is not about you. The fact that you think it is somehow centered around you is in reality a bit rude. I believe the name is PlaneShift, not Seytra\'s Goals.
You see, if you think that these unwilling to adopt the community\'s language ...
No because they are not saying that you must help them fulfill their goals. You are saying they must help you fulfill yours. That then makes you the center of the issue, because you want them to conform to your desires, and not the other way around. They are content to not have you involved in their experience, whereas you feel they should somehow strive to better your experience.
Is it furthermore not funny how you accuse me ...
And apparently they have no issue with that. On the other hand you seem to take issue in the fact that they can and will play the game without you.
Oh, and before you go \"The other players aren\'t there for you!\" again: What are they there for, then?
To play the game.
If you abstract the concept \"me\" to \"other players\", which is completely valid...
They are not there to provide an option. They are there to RP for their own benefit. They didn\'t join this game to please others. They joined the game to enjoy the pleasure themselves. You are not necessary for that.
So therefore by entering PS, you are indeed promising to allow that interaction for others...
No such promises were made. Nor were they asked of any players joining PS. I am not there for you. Don\'t think so highly of yourself to think that I have any interest in assisting you in your goals, RP or otherwise.
As I elaborated above, \"me\" is merely a placeholder for \"anyone\". About meeting them halfway...
Entirely serious. The exact same way you would interact with people IRL that don\'t speak your language. Meet them halfway.
I don\'t see them trying to meet the community even a tiny little bit on the way, BTW.
They weren\'t communicating with you. Therefore they were in no need to meet you even a little bit of the way.
It\'s always the newcomer who needs to go the greatest part of the way...
Never. It is always the elders who should be doing the most to set the best examples. The newcomers should always have the leaway needed to find their niche and become accustomed to the new environment.
Ah, yes, you are obviously one of the people who insist on doing things unless a court rules against it...
Etiquette differs from place to place. I don\'t consider trying to force feed newcomers my personal goals to be proper etiquette.
Entering a place where english is the language of choice ...
Again there are no provisions made for language. So it is the language of your choice. Obviously the majority\'s as well, but it is not the only option. That is just your misguided belief.
And it is the reason why people start getting hostile towards those who are rude
You are the only rude individual so far. Your manners are atrocious. Your choice of wording is very nearly insulting and your arguments are demonstrative of one who thinks more of himself than the community he is so savagely trying to defend.
, and in the long run towards foreigners in general,
This is an internet RP World. There are no foreigners. I am quite amused that you did mention this though. It serves well to demonstrate why you are taking such an interest in these matters.
because they have had to learn that a lot of them are rude...
So now you are at issue with nationalities other than yourself. Has this game become your personal playground so that you can spread your potentially hateful (or was that hostile?) beliefs?
No, I don\'t agree with \"nuke France\", nor any other country...
So they should give up who they are to be just like you because you don\'t approve of their difference?
When you go somewhere and indulge yourself in blatantly disregarding the local customs...
That is your point of view simply reversed. I would gather that is not the point of view for the vast majority of people.
When someone goes somewhere and indulges in blatantly disregarding the local customs...
Again that is how you view the world. Your customs do not apply, because this is a fantasy world. There are no provisions made for language. Until then, there are no \"customs\" concerning languages, there just assumptions.
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we personnally see no wrong in others speaking in their own tongue, but to belittle anyone for it, and cite hatred due to country of origin, religion of their REAL LIFE is just unacceptable and infact illegal in United Kingdom as we think it is also the case in all EU countries under the European Commission of Human Rights.. and could lead to prosecution, should someone feel fit to complain and go to the lengths of gathering the evidence via logs on the server... [so think very hard prior to doing so before us if you live in UK - we may just take you to court and this free game will suddenly become very exspensive for you alone for your lack of judgement]
So it is best for all to just enjoy what is free, and be curtious to those who join in, and not ruin it for the rest by being so blatently stupid.
If people speak their language and not others they are the ones who may lose out on some RP opportunities, but by speaking in a common English tongue it helps only with others listening in on their RP and allows others to try and join in.
Those who are persistantly abusive and racist and like should be banned without comeback via their IP for the sake of the other players, and this game which I am sure would not want to be shut down under the Misuse telecommunications act for unsolicited or malicious electronic transmitions whilst investigations take place!\'
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*sighs* Again I say can\'t we all get along and Lets not harbor prejudice and as a community show we can honour all nations and languages.
[edit] Lolitra, Celorrim if that is true then let us hope some people hold there tongues.
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Originally posted by Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins
Those who are abusive and racist and like should be banned without comeback via their IP for the sake of the other players, and this game which I am sure would not want to be shut down under the Misuse telecommunications act for unsolicited or malicious electronic transmitions whilst investigations take place!\'
I am against ip banning because each time you ll have a dynamic ip you could be sure that the banned guy will come back and that another innocent people could be banned with no reasons.
Moreover, i have been banned from an irc chan for personnal reasons that the op would have to explain to me because it was hard for me to understand (at 5am the op ask me to play a little game when i ask him something about php, i refused he banned me... if i were the creator of the chan, the op would be fired). Imagine that the day after when i came back to speak with him on the chan, the op banned all my domain (which was a kind of cloak which concern at least some million frenches and in my mind some millions europeans). I ll be honnest and tell you one thing: if one day a ps gm do that in front of me, ill advice the developpers and the high leveled gm to fire him very quickly because it\'s not a responsible way of behaving... But anyway, the fact of banning people would not be useful because i am sure gm would forget to unban...
If the problem is too big, then take the ip address and the date and then report it. One day i report abusing to an isp... I dunno if it was useful but the abuser finally excuse itself and promise to not annoy me and my forum users anymore... he respected his promise.
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Originally posted by Askr
The fault doesn\'t lie on the side of people who complain. It was just fine before, it would be fine if others didn\'t use other languages. And they don\'t have to. If they came in here, I assume they can speak english. Otherwise I don\'t see a point in joining a english-based community where the main point is to role-play. Role-playing is much harder when you can\'t communicate. Thus the only reason I see for joining such thing, is the game. But that goes under hack&slash. Since mmorpg\'s without social side are basically that.
There is no fault. No one has done wrong, that is until there are rules instituted. Which if you are so concerned would probably be the best path to take.
Please, try to reason before posting. If there is no fault, there is no negative reaction. What is this thread? That\'s right - negative reaction.
Originally posted by Askr
In the end I think people who use different languages are just deciding to speak in their native one, because it\'s easier. And at the moment when they decide to do so, they don\'t think about how it could influence the rest of community, if someone might get annoyed because his chatbox gets filled with words he can\'t understand. They think about themselves, because it is so much easier to just use their native language, than try to communicate in english.
Again every player in this world is not here to please every other player. People are going to get annoyed regardless. That is part of life. And barring the few 11 year olds who come in here, I would expect that everyone here is mature enough to realize that the world does not exist solely for their satisfaction.
Please try to reason before posting. In same way you can say in real life \"People are going to get killed regardless. That is part of life.\" But do we allow murderers to do what they want? No, because we want a well working social structure. And to do that we need to enforce certain rules upon the community so that as many people as possible will enjoy their life. If that doesn\'t happen, there will be made petitions (just like we have threads here), anger, splitting within community, prejudices and fights between members of community. heck, I already started to dislike France (and what follows french guilds) because of how rude some of the people from there were in Planeshift. And how did I know they were French? Well take a wild guess!
Again, reason. This game is made solely for their satisfaction. What else would a game be made for?
Originally posted by Askr
Why it\'s fine for people to complain? They play this game for a while, they are a strong part of the community. They are doing just fine in it and enjoy their stay here. So why must they deal with every single annoyment that might be caused by people who are seemingly too lazy to try and use language, which would be understood by all the others?
Why must they deal with it? Because they are not the sole possessers of this world. If they think they are, then they should be playing single player games. Laziness is not taking the annoyances in stride and expecting everyone else to make the effort to change, when they are not willing to do so themselves.
Reason.
Specimen A: Doesn\'t have choice on what it can see.
Specimen B: Has a choice on what others will see. But decides to show them what they don\'t want to see, for personal comfort.
Everything would be fine if they just used english. Would anything go wrong this way? No. If those people are playing Planeshift then they must know english to play it in a correct manner (as in communicate with even random people). Everyone, and I repeat everyone would be fine otherwise. But no, they decide to do it their way, because.... Well, just because.
Originally posted by Askr
Like I said, they don\'t need to use their native language, as they surely know english (or not, but yeah...). All the other people don\'t have a choice. They are forced to hear things they won\'t understand in any way.
They don\'t need to use English either to enjoy the game. You might not be able to enjoy their company, but they don\'t need you either. As long as we are talking about \'need\'.
Reason, is it so hard to reason? This is a role-playing game. If they will only communicate with people with knowledge of the respective language, then the role-playing environment will get disrupted and small sub-communities will be created. I believe many people addressed this issue already, you might want to read their posts more carefully.
Originally posted by Askr
Other people do have a choice....ignore those people who aren\'t speaking English.
Just like with the so-called \"trolls\"? This is really awesome how you promote disruption of community, it really is.
Also, I believe USA is much bigger than Yliakum, people there still have connections with other countries (whereas Yliakum doesn\'t) and people still come there from other countries, whilst Yliakum had its mass migration hundreds of years ago and right now is rathe seperated from other worlds. Try to figure out how it would be in USA if it was smaller and completely seperated from the rest of the world. There would be no need for study of other languages, and knowledge passed on would eventually blur and wane away.
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Originally posted by fken
Originally posted by Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins
Those who are abusive and racist and like should be banned without comeback via their IP for the sake of the other players, and this game which I am sure would not want to be shut down under the Misuse telecommunications act for unsolicited or malicious electronic transmitions whilst investigations take place!\'
I am against ip banning because each time you ll have a dynamic ip you could be sure that the banned guy will come back and that another innocent people could be banned with no reasons.
Moreover, i have been banned from an irc chan for personnal reasons that the op would have to explain to me because it was hard for me to understand (at 5am the op ask me to play a little game when i ask him something about php, i refused he banned me... if i were the creator of the chan, the op would be fired). Imagine that the day after when i came back to speak with him on the chan, the op banned all my domain (which was a kind of cloak which concern at least some million frenches and in my mind some millions europeans). I ll be honnest and tell you one thing: if one day a ps gm do that in front of me, ill advice the developpers and the high leveled gm to fire him very quickly because it\'s not a responsible way of behaving... But anyway, the fact of banning people would not be useful because i am sure gm would forget to unban...
If the problem is too big, then take the ip address and the date and then report it. One day i report abusing to an isp... I dunno if it was useful but the abuser finally excuse itself and promise to not annoy me and my forum users anymore... he respected his promise.
Hmmm, The GM\'s would not make such a decision, it would be up to the DEV\'s to protect their interests in PS, and therefore they would have to submit their findings (as a result to a complaint) to the ISPs for PS who would no doubt be able to trace the offending computer and identify it...(and from there a user could be identified) and send it the ban or warning of an impending ban for such a crime.
But as said - it would have to be blatent that the person who is being so offensive is aware that their behaviour is unacceptable and refuses to stop it.
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I didn\'t read all of this because it started getting repetitive. I can tell you right now, there really is no argument here.
It\'s like this: Planeshift is dedicated to role-playing. People can not role-play if they do not speak the same language (I don\'t think they plan on implementing complex hand gestures). Therefore, everyone needs to speak the same language in public chat, even /say.
Here\'s a scenario for you who think using you own language in /say in private areas is fine: A rogue with an invisibility potion/cloak/spell goes to spy on a group. He/she arrives and goes up close to listen... and finds that they\'re all speaking French when he/she speaks English. \"Well, he could ask them to speak English OOC...\" And they wouldn\'t change their behavior at all, knowing someone was listening? Riiiiight.
No one can ever be truly IC: there\'s always a little OOC in there somewhere, and language differences only accentuate this. In addition, I\'d like to point out that (and I quote from the settings page, emphasis added), \"The land of Yliakum is a melting pot of races with different culture and origin, mixed and integrated by living together over the centuries.\" In other words, they probably do speak the same language and have similar cultures.
So, in summary, languages besides English:
-Inhibit role-play and cause exclusion: definitely not respecting others
-Are out of character (see Drak\'s and Seytra\'s earlier posts for more details)
-Can lead to racial tension (I didn\'t discuss this, see Drak\'s posts)
EDIT: Oh, and English needs to be used for a practical reason as well: GMs investigating claims against players invisibly need to be able to understand what they are saying. Using other languages makes the GMs\' job lot a harder.
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Originally posted by Askr
Have you been to America? Do you live there? Have you actually set foot outside?
Yes. No, not ATM. Yes.
Originally posted by Askr
1. Not everyone in America is capable of speaking English.
2. There are still lots of different languages spoken in America.
3. Mixing has little influence on this discussion since we have no information regarding generation gaps, life spans, or statistical information concerning racial dispersion over the history of Yliakum.
This reasoning has been ripped to shreds already. Unless you are going ti invent discrete languages for the races / species in Yliakum, you have no point at all, because, as has been stated, with your faulty logic, one dermorian would speak french, another german, a third gaelic, and so on, which is hardly in any way RP. If you go ahead and make race-specific languages, then your reasoning might actually go anywhere, to a point. Until that das... no.
Originally posted by Askr
Well, your statement doesn\'t even have any claim besides \"I\'m right\" and \"You\'re stupid\". Which is a bit sad.
But your statement concerning my laziness and community adaptation is somehow meaningful? Again, did I state anywhere that you were \'stupid\'?
It\'s perfectly meaningful, yes. The community adaptation is really nothing special, it\'s common in all communities, so it\'s more a natural law not an argument.
Originally posted by Askr
Lol, I\'m perfectly able to control my emotions, unlike you, it seems, judging from your wording.
What wording was that? Where you said I called you stupid? Hmmm... Was it where I brought up hostility? So far you are the only one bringing up emotions.
Oh? So your statements like \"Let me shed a tear\" and \"Here come these tears again\" are what exactly, if not designed to incite anger? Thought so.
Originally posted by Askr
RP is about communication. But RP with you is not a requirement. Ignore realism? It is a fantasy world, how far are you going to push realism? Realism is not everyone speaks the same language. Realism is not everyone gives a care if you want them to speak your language. Realism is not everyone wants you to be a part of their experiences. Realism is not \" go out of your way to make Seytra happy\". When you want to be realistic, let me know.
You are still not capable of graspin the difference between IC and OOC, it seems, whoich is why you keep talking such a nonsense.
Realism is that if at all, the people of the same race in PS are specking the same language. That would be IC, if you leave out the melting pot argument. Realism is not having people of the same race speak different languages for OOC reasons. What\'s so hard to grasp about that?
Also, I don\'t see anyone goint out of their way. In fact, I would have to go out of my way to keep a few moronic \"I don\'t give a crap about the community\" type people happy. Not gonna happen.
Originally posted by Askr
That doesn\'t surprise me, as you seem to be in general unwilling to actually think about the arguments and what people are trying to say with them.
Unwilling to think about the arguments? Hmmm.... I have thought about it from both sides. Its really a very simple argument actually.
Glad you agree, there\'s nothing complex and it\'s really common sense.
Originally posted by Askr
You came accross as believing that PS ...
Not my belief at all. I know the reason why English is used.
So why do you keep arguing against it?
Originally posted by Askr
Your claim that other languages are OK in PS only makes sense if ...
You are talking statistics now. Your reasoning has completely changed in two posts. And since you based these arguments on a false assumption, they are again baseless and useless in your defense.
Well, my reasoning didn\'t change at all, I merely didn\'t think it would in any way help to repeat the same arguments once more, and instead brought up new ones. Repeating myself isn\'t worthwhile.
But I would love you to explain how that assumption is false. Please try to prove it false maintaining the distinction between IC and OOC, and thereby applying the term \"realistic\" correctly for once.
Originally posted by Askr
I think you are lacking points, maturity and willingness to integrate...
Willingness to integrate? I am speaking English. English is my native tongue.
OK, sorry for mistaking you for one of the \"I speak my language only\" person, then.
Originally posted by Askr
What are you talking about, willingness to integrate? Maturity? You mean like the maturity involved in becoming hostile because someone is not speaking English?
Hmm, did I ever do that? Did I even say I condoned this hostility? Nope.
Originally posted by Askr
Or the maturity involved in segregating myself from other players because they are not speaking English?
Weren\'t you the one who said that this is exactly what one has to do? \"If they don\'t speak your language, then you aren\'t supposed to communicate with them\"? You might want to get your arguments to not contradict themselves next time...
Originally posted by Askr
What maturity are you referring to precisely? The maturity based upon the reasoning that \"because everyone else is doing it so should you\"....
Yes, the maturity of seeing that there is a very valid reason why the community has certain rules (even unwritten ones) and to accept them.
Originally posted by Askr
Hmm, to find out, you might wish to read it some time, maybe? ...
Read what? Your stance? I\'ve read it. It went from emotional breakdowns (hostility towards non-English speaking people)
Hmm, maybe you read the post of someone else, on some other thread on another board, then? Because mine certainly didn\'t contain any of what you claim. Odd thing. Emotional breakdowns? Seriously, whom are you trying to fool here?
Originally posted by Askr
and segregation (subcultures) to being one about statistical values of English speaking people.
No, that was your proposal, not mine.
Originally posted by Askr
Somewhere in there you attempted to throw in the fact that the Devs have chosen English over their (one\'s, someone\'s) native Italian and are trying to use that as a basis to necessitate speaking English in-game. Regardless of the fact that no provision for such a necessity has been made.
I wonder what additional \"provision for such necessity\" would be required besides the reasons I posted.
Originally posted by Askr
I have read it and I am fully aware of your stance.
Please forgive me when I say that it most certainly looks not like you actually did and are.
Originally posted by Askr
I am also aware of the PS background. On the otherhand you seem to enjoy making assumptions based upon non-existent information and attribute those false assumptions to the PS world.
Which are? If you are referring to me extrapolating from the given setting to the logical consequences, then I\'m only left to wonder how these are false. You, OTOH, didn\'t even bother to base anything on the settings besides saying that \"originally, the races came from different places\" and then following on in the completely unreasonable and baseless pseudo-logic saying \"That\'s why every race can have every RL language depending on player\", from which follows that it\'s perfectly natural and realistic for the same race with the same origin not being able to understand each other.
Originally posted by Askr
Well, the fact that you don\'t want them to carry weight doesn\'t mean they don\'t...
Everyone? Everyone consists of many more people than 3. I am sure you are aware of that little fact. It doesn\'t matter if I want them to carry weight or not. Until a rule is made, everything else is just wishful thinking.
Ah, OK, let me get this straight: three out of four who are posting are not in any way \"everyone except that one\"?
And we already know that you are one of the \"Unless there\'s a law, I won\'t exhibit anything besides rudeness and most certainly I\'ll enjoy doing things against etiquette just because.\" people.
Originally posted by Askr
Hmm, the tactic of adding \"Another baseless example\" ...
It is not a tactic. It is simply pointing out your poor examples. Actual arguments? \'The language of the place you are in\' is not an argument when there is no single language of the place I am in. It makes no sense and has no validity as an example in this discussion. Which is what makes it baseless.
Well, so there is no single language in the place called PS? What about english? What about the fact that it was chosen by the devs, which even you acknowledged? So how can this argument possibly be invalid?
Originally posted by Askr
Anyway, this quite obviously is not restricted to any particular place. The points to take are:
Your goal was to communicate with only one single person? If so, you are not contributing to the RP environment and might be considered to be stalking. Or is your goal to communicate with every person there? Because we both know the latter is not true. If I need to dig up quotes to prove so, I will.
Oh, I know which posts you will be digging up. It\'ll be those where I said that I will ignore some people. I think you will purposefully leave out the reasons why, or probably claim them invalid. :rolleyes:
But does that prove you correct in any way? No, not at all. The greatest number of people is still very well within that communication, and your point about stalking made me chuckle. :)
It obviously is an alien concept to you, but since RP is about communication, and since RP also can\'t usually be pre-planned because you don\'t even know if an RP opportunity will arise from the characters of two or more RPers, then the necessary conclusion is that in order to see if RP is possible, and to have it actually happen naturally, it is necessary to be able to overhear what other RPers say, even when they are not interacting with you or don\'t even know you. I have elaborated on that on another thread already, though.
Originally posted by Askr
4) this example is an almost perfect, and thus a highly relevant comparison to the situation we are discussing.
It is nowhere near perfect because:
a. Your goal is not to communicate with every single person but to RP in the PS environment.
Save the very few exceptions, it actually is.
Originally posted by Askr
Communication is only allowable in an RP manner and therefore any normal daily communication with non-English speaking people would not take place anyway.
And these people are going to speak english when they RP? Or are you saying that it is OK for them to be OOC all the time, whch would contradict the \"Communication only for RP\", though?
Originally posted by Askr
b. The language is not official until it is stated to be so in TOS, User Agreement or in the game information itself. Which no such statement exists.
The \"sue me\" argument again. Etiquette and such things must be completely alien to you. And several PS affiliated people have stated that english is the official language of PS. But you are going to insist on this despisable attitude, anyway.
Originally posted by Askr
c. This game has not been created for the sole purpose of you fulfilling your goal. It is created for the enjoyment of many people, of which you are but one.
Yes, and it\'s not just my enjoyment being reduced, so where is the point?
Originally posted by Askr
Therefore you dismissing it as baseless cannot be explained by logic.
This statement is illogical.
I think I expliained why it isn\'t.
Originally posted by Askr
Here comes the immaturity again, paired with gross inability to read properly...
That is humorous.
Yes, isn\'t it? I liked that a lot myself. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Askr
It\'s not spam because it doesn\'t directly pertain to me...
Almost noone....
It floods the screen...
The same could be said for you. Regardless, if you don\'t like it... use the ignore filter. Or does that fall under the issue of laziness?
OK, there is the \"go and separate\" argument again... which is interesting since you don\'t want me to... or do you... or not? Oh, whatever is convenient to your non-reasooning... now I got it...
Originally posted by Askr
Now isn\'t the contradiction funny?
That is not a contradiction.
Especially given that yes indeed my point was that I am here solely to communicate with others?...
Because they are not here for the sole purpose of assisting you in fulfilling your goal. This game is not about you. The fact that you think it is somehow centered around you is in reality a bit rude. I believe the name is PlaneShift, not Seytra\'s Goals.
I love it how you try to make it somehow look like I was saying that, even though I stated, several times, that I am a mere placeholder for \"everyone\".
But in a way you are even right:
PS is there for RP alone.
I am in PS for RP alone
Therefore, PS is there to fulfill my goal. Just like any other RPer. And RPers is what PS centers around.
Originally posted by Askr
You see, if you think that these unwilling to adopt the community\'s language ...
No because they are not saying that you must help them fulfill their goals. You are saying they must help you fulfill yours. That then makes you the center of the issue, because you want them to conform to your desires, and not the other way around. They are content to not have you involved in their experience, whereas you feel they should somehow strive to better your experience.
Yes. Unless their goals are to RP, then their goals are not aligned with PS, so they have no justification to be in PS. If their goals are RP, then I am there, as I have stated, to fullfill them just as they are there to fulfill mine, which are the same. If their goals aren\'t RP, then I\'m obviously not there, not even supposed to be there to fullfill them. But you obviously aren\'t going to understand why the separation and segregation is going to harm everyone by lessening the enjoyment of all through dramatically reducing opportunities to interact.
The fact that some selfish ignorant fools don\'t really hurt is simply due to the fact that the vast majority acts reasonable and in line with what is required to have an enjoyable experience. If everyone would think as you advocate or deem acceptable, then you\'d have a hard time talking to anyone in PS.
Originally posted by Askr
Is it furthermore not funny how you accuse me ...
And apparently they have no issue with that. On the other hand you seem to take issue in the fact that they can and will play the game without you.
Well, murderers generally tend not to have an issue with them murdering others. Likewise, rulebreakers, as odd as it might seem, generally don\'t have any problems with them breaking the rules. Rude people also generally don\'t think they are doing wrong. Does that make them right? No, it doesn\'t.
Originally posted by Askr
Oh, and before you go \"The other players aren\'t there for you!\" again: What are they there for, then?
To play the game.
Which is? Oh, right, RP, thus communication, thus interacting... and -tada- there I am...
But you are likely one Hack&Slasher who thinks the game is about stats, in which case you are right: they interact by numbers and stats and ranking tables. But PS isn\'t about that, so they aren\'t playing the game.
Originally posted by Askr
If you abstract the concept \"me\" to \"other players\", which is completely valid...
They are not there to provide an option. They are there to RP for their own benefit. They didn\'t join this game to please others. They joined the game to enjoy the pleasure themselves. You are not necessary for that.
Your view of RP is quite sad. RP is about others, not just about oneself. If you RP only for your own, then your RP isn\'t RP, and agai, if everyone ios going to act that way, noone will end up having any fun, but I think you aren\'t going to see why that would be.
Originally posted by Askr
So therefore by entering PS, you are indeed promising to allow that interaction for others...
No such promises were made. Nor were they asked of any players joining PS. I am not there for you. Don\'t think so highly of yourself to think that I have any interest in assisting you in your goals, RP or otherwise.
*yawn* Placeholder, etc. pp..
Originally posted by Askr
As I elaborated above, \"me\" is merely a placeholder for \"anyone\". About meeting them halfway...
Entirely serious. The exact same way you would interact with people IRL that don\'t speak your language. Meet them halfway.
Not gonna happen, because completely different situations and thus not comparable. Explained several times, understood by you not once.
Originally posted by Askr
I don\'t see them trying to meet the community even a tiny little bit on the way, BTW.
They weren\'t communicating with you. Therefore they were in no need to meet you even a little bit of the way.
See above.
Originally posted by Askr
It\'s always the newcomer who needs to go the greatest part of the way...
Never. It is always the elders who should be doing the most to set the best examples. The newcomers should always have the leaway needed to find their niche and become accustomed to the new environment.
Not at all. A community can\'t just completely reshape itself to accommodate some oddbal newcomer. One day a french guy thinks everyone needs to speak french, next day a german, next day a fin, next day... seriously, don\'t you see how that isn\'t going to work at all?
Originally posted by Askr
Ah, yes, you are obviously one of the people who insist on doing things unless a court rules against it...
Etiquette differs from place to place. I don\'t consider trying to force feed newcomers my personal goals to be proper etiquette.
The ting isn\'t about me (us) trying to get them to show a little courtesy and speak english, but them refusing to do the b#most basic thing to actually participate in the community. I won\'t accept sub-communities forming and segregating from everyone else, that would be so against the PS goal of having one single, consistent world it can\'t be more obvious.
Originally posted by Askr
Entering a place where english is the language of choice ...
Again there are no provisions made for language. So it is the language of your choice. Obviously the majority\'s as well, but it is not the only option. That is just your misguided belief.
Hmm, OK, then how about the consistent world? That\'s even on the mainsite. How do different separate subcommunities fit in there?
Originally posted by Askr
And it is the reason why people start getting hostile towards those who are rude
You are the only rude individual so far. Your manners are atrocious. Your choice of wording is very nearly insulting and your arguments are demonstrative of one who thinks more of himself than the community he is so savagely trying to defend.
Is that so? Maybe if you don\'t read what I stated. I\'m not rude, I\'m merely listing the reasons why english is really necessary to be used. My wording isn\'t in any way more insulting than yours, and I\'m inclined to say it\'s quite less insulting, even. Your attitude and that of these you defend is despisable, though.
Originally posted by Askr
, and in the long run towards foreigners in general,
This is an internet RP World. There are no foreigners. I am quite amused that you did mention this though. It serves well to demonstrate why you are taking such an interest in these matters.
Ah, call me nazi out loud if you dare. And even if you do, I don\'t care at all, I had that happen before, just like I\'ve been called comunist, socialist, and what have you. Doesn\'T make any more true then the other. :)
You are, once again, purposefully mixing things that are distinctly different.
Internet world... yes, there are no foreigners. Still, once people make themselves foreigners to the internet community (by alienating everyone who doesn\'t speak their language, thereby lessening the internet community to a RL community which then includes foreigners), they become not only foreigners there, but also everyone will know they are IRL.
If what you say was true, then
1) no hostility by these \"nuke france\" people would exist
2) noone would speak in something other than the community language
Therefore, once people insist on bringing their nationality into the community, they create foreignness and thus bring in all the things that, technically, don\'t exist in an internet community.
Hmm, to phrase things like you:
\"Another baseless claim of yours.\" :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Askr
because they have had to learn that a lot of them are rude...
So now you are at issue with nationalities other than yourself. Has this game become your personal playground so that you can spread your potentially hateful (or was that hostile?) beliefs?
Hmm, maybe my shift in what I am referring to has been too subtle for you?
I was quite obviously referring to the people who went \"nuke france\", which doesn\'t have anything to do with PS anymore.
And it is furthermore funny how you are now trying to phrase things as if I was somehow actually spreading racist propaganda, when in fact all I was trying to do is explain why being rude and highly nationalistic (which is what insisting on forcing one\'s local language into another community is) does create negative feelings and attitude.
But obviously that would put the blame to those who insist on \"being french in an internet community\", whom you are defending, and that can\'t ever happen, can it?
Originally posted by Askr
No, I don\'t agree with \"nuke France\", nor any other country...
So they should give up who they are to be just like you because you don\'t approve of their difference?
Ah? So now PS somehow isn\'t an internet community anymore? Now suddenly it matters where you are from and what you are? My, your contradictions are ridiculous.
Originally posted by Askr
When someone goes somewhere and indulges in blatantly disregarding the local customs...
Again that is how you view the world. Your customs do not apply, because this is a fantasy world. There are no provisions made for language. Until then, there are no \"customs\" concerning languages, there just assumptions.
Haha, I\'ve yet to see a more unfitting and more inappropriate use of the useless \"it\'s fantasy\" pseudo-argument! :))
And I\'ve yet to see someone else who contradicts himself in his arguments so continously as you do! :))
This is really funny, believe me! :D
So is this, or is this not, an internet community? Does, or does not, nationality matter? Are there, or are there not, customs that pertain to the PS community?
But then again, I think it\'s really without any value to try to discuss with someone like you who isn\'t even capable of building a consistent, coherent thought structure to frame his own arguments.
So, come back when you have grown up, OK?
Edit: Oh, BTW, you are now one of the ones on my ignore list (which makes four, including the ones who have left PS already). So you don\'t even have to search for another thread to quote from. :P
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I have had a lengthy conversation about this with sengus...
soo to make my point clearer; I personally wouldn\'t mind seeing one, or another speaking another language, but letting everyone speak the language he wants to would cause something I call \'Tower of Babylon effect\'. Over short or long the already fragile community would be shattered due to the fact that people who use to speak a certain language ingame would obviously begin to gather at certain places, slowly but surely creating German districts, French districts, whatever, and in the worst case english would just be a filler language to tell people to \'**** off\' if they dont speak the correspodenting language. Moreover (man it\'s the first time ever that I use this word on a Message Board ...) the pseudo-\"realism\" of haveing different languages ingame has been discussed thoroughly...
Edited for language.
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do you feel its a threat for you? ... I am french and i stay with the english community, especially when i rp. I have been happy the day i came to Yliakum because i saw a group of frenches who explained me how the game works... with the say chan.
Who is able to know how it would happen if it was an american for example who would have shown me the way to play ps? Just imagine than an OP from an important chan banned me (see previous post) because he never tried to imagine that i could have trouble to speak a good english at 5am (especially when the guy is speaking about programmation with english terms) and because he wasnt able to imagine that i didnt want to play a game at 5am. Just imagine that one day a guy insult me because I didnt want to read a complete wikipedia page (a very big one) to understand what foo means...
He said something like
type \"apt-get install foo\"
I answered there is no foo package on my debian distrib
He sent me to the wikipedia link
I saw a page where the subject was about a lot of various subject... but nothing about computer... I though it was another guy who think he is intelligent because of childish jokes so I asked that to another guy.
And finally : the miracle ! The guy said:
apt-get install foo = apt-get install , XXXXXX ! (replace XXXXXX with another word with mother inside...)
So even if after the atmosphere has been better and even if the guy was a good man... I could imagine that there could be some issues when a french would ask something to an american or anyone else who dont speak french...
And now you will say : PS is not for the one who dont speak english...
So the game would be for english only... and ps would not be international anymore! Say it to Talad...
I never saw trouble with MB... I am wondering if MB wasnt better finaly... I am at least speaking about mentality, behaviours, community... Just think about the number of people who played a lot of hours to find xtals... for us the game wasnt boring because there was the famous ps community, a friendly community... but now people wanna add rules to forbid foreigner languages, people insult each others, ... maybe people wanna forbid foreigner newbies access to ps?
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Originally posted by fken
do you feel its a threat for you?
Oh, please come on and be reasonable, OK? Noone said they felt threatened. :rolleyes: However, as has also been beaten to death, the segregation issue does exist, and that issue is a threat. Not to anyone in particular, but to the entire community, regardless of native language. Even if you are not prone to segregation, others are and will be, I don\'t see reason to deny that.
Originally posted by fken
... I am french and i stay with the english community, especially when i rp. I have been happy the day i came to Yliakum because i saw a group of frenches who explained me how the game works... with the say chan.
Would it have posed any particular problem to do that inside a /group? Seriously, that is all that is being asked for! Is that really too much to ask? I really don\'t think it is.
Originally posted by fken
Who is able to know how it would happen if it was an american for example who would have shown me the way to play ps? Just imagine than an OP from an important chan banned me (see previous post) because he never tried to imagine that i could have trouble to speak a good english at 5am (especially when the guy is speaking about programmation with english terms) and because he wasnt able to imagine that i didnt want to play a game at 5am. Just imagine that one day a guy insult me because I didnt want to read a complete wikipedia page (a very big one) to understand what foo means...
I think these are very different issues. The problems you are referring to lie with the person that you spoke to, not with the language. I can imagine that \"foo\" isn\'t necessarily known to have that meaning to all americans as well. After all, it\'s origins are certainly different from the meaning it has acquired now.
Originally posted by fken
He said something like
type \"apt-get install foo\"
If that person would have been me, you\'d have received:
\"apt-get install \"
I answered there is no foo package on my debian distrib
He sent me to the wikipedia link
[/quote]
If that person would have been me, you\'d have received:
\"Foo= whatever package you require, sorry for the confusion :( \" or something along these lines.
Originally posted by fken
I saw a page where the subject was about a lot of various subject... but nothing about computer... I though it was another guy who think he is intelligent because of childish jokes so I asked that to another guy.
In a way he was, because the work of digging up the link was certainly more than the sentence above, and if he has that link handy, he was obviously out to get people by it on purpose.
Originally posted by fken
And finally : the miracle ! The guy said:
apt-get install foo = apt-get install , XXXXXX ! (replace XXXXXX with another word with mother inside...)
So even if after the atmosphere has been better and even if the guy was a good man... I could imagine that there could be some issues when a french would ask something to an american or anyone else who dont speak french...
Well, but this isn\'t in any way specific to french <-> english. In fact, I\'m perfectly sure that it could happen in any two languages.
Originally posted by fken
And now you will say : PS is not for the one who dont speak english...
So the game would be for english only... and ps would not be international anymore! Say it to Talad...
No. The only thing that is being said is that PS is for those who can communicate in english, even if only marginally. However, if you define this as \"english only\", then yes, PS is english only. And this is, as has been stated, not because people who don\'t speak english are somehow inherently bad, but simply because of the undeniable fact that once you allow native language groups, these will absorb a great lot of those who could as well speak english but prefer to stay with their language group because it\'s easier. And this then means that the community of PS won\'t be one anymore, it won\'t be international, not global anymore, but national groups that simply happen to run in parallel. If that would be the case, then I know that several RP opportunities I did have would highly likely never have arisen. And from the feedback I received I deduce that I wasn\'t the only one enjoying them.
Originally posted by fken
I never saw trouble with MB... I am wondering if MB wasnt better finaly... I am at least speaking about mentality, behaviours, community... Just think about the number of people who played a lot of hours to find xtals...
The merit of running after crystal spawn is highly debatable all by itself.
Originally posted by fken
for us the game wasnt boring because there was the famous ps community, a friendly community... but now people wanna add rules to forbid foreigner languages,
In public only.
Originally posted by fken
people insult each others,
Which has in no single post been condoned.
Originally posted by fken
... maybe people wanna forbid foreigner newbies access to ps?
Which has also never been said, thought or intended.
There is a fine line between integrating but retaining some traditions and forming a parallel society without any sort of integration. The first is good and does enrich the overall society, the latter is bad and does lead to aggression as history tells over and over again.
Edit:
If we spin this further, we would soon see nation-specific guilds, and in the further course we would see guild wars between these guilds, none of which would have any basis in RP, being completely OOC. It could easily transform PS into a battleground of nationalistic people. Brazil vs. France. UK vs. Ireland. Germany vs. Poland. Turkey vs. America. This is a worst case scenario, but the OP was AFAICS a clear indication that these things are a very real possibility, if we like it or not.
/Edit
I sincerely hope that I have made myself clear and comprehensible this time, because otherwise I really see no chance of me ever getting my thoughts accross.
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Originally posted by fken
a friendly community... but now people wanna add rules to forbid foreigner languages,
Are you sure you speak of the same game? As far as I remember there were quite a few cases in MB where shout channel was cluttered with french words and any attempt to make people who used this language to stop had a response of them only making it worse.
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Is this still going on!!! :O
/me throws in the towel and walks off well rolling her eyes
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This issue is in Planeshift for so long that you shouldn\'t expect discussion about it to die out within few days ;)
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Originally posted by Draklar
This issue is in Planeshift for so long that you shouldn\'t expect discussion about it to die out within few days ;)
I never expected this issue to die out at all to be honest. With the way this thread is going I do not believe there will ever be closer on this issue at all. It seems to me that the issue is not complicated at all, just the people who debate it. *Sigh* Plus I am a \"can\'t we all get along type of gal.\" In short I hope it ends well but will not hold my breath... :)
[Edit] I just wanted to add to all who participate in this thread there is such a thing called \"I agree to disagree\" basically saying ok you have your opinion and I have mine. After all of the debating I have not changed your mind and you have not changed mine. So let us agree to disagree because our opinions have been posted. ;) That way it stays friendly and no one feels attacked. Just a suggestion........
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Originally posted by Draklar
Please, try to reason before posting. If there is no fault, there is no negative reaction. What is this thread? That\'s right - negative reaction.
Try to reason? I cannot believe you actually said that. Proper reasoning would be that the people who are attempting to keep others from speaking their own language during their enjoyment of a game to be at fault.
Please try to reason before posting. In same way you can say in real life \"People are going to get killed regardless. That is part of life.\" But do we allow murderers to do what they want? No, because we want a well working social structure. And to do that we need to enforce certain rules upon the community so that as many people as possible will enjoy their life. If that doesn\'t happen, there will be made petitions (just like we have threads here), anger, splitting within community, prejudices and fights between members of community. heck, I already started to dislike France (and what follows french guilds) because of how rude some of the people from there were in Planeshift. And how did I know they were French? Well take a wild guess!
Again, reason. This game is made solely for their satisfaction. What else would a game be made for?
Are you saying that you are trying to reason before posting? Because your posts and telling me to reason makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Murder cannot in any intelligent way be equated with speaking one\'s native tongue. That is ridiculous.
Prejudice, anger spitting, and other nonsense are only a result of those people who feel the need to force others to conform to their wishes. Who feel that they are somehow more in the right. Who feel that they are somehow superior and more valuable. It is not a result of equality and common decency or even respect for others.
So you are attempting to validate your dislike for French people by making PS an English speaking only game? Hmmm.... what reasoning did you have for that? Inability to control your emotions? Personal vendettas?
Please feel free to use intelligent debating techniques. Stating \"reason\" and then being unreasonable doesn\'t equate.
Reason.
Again, your posts about \"reason\" are not demonstrating any ability to reason.
Specimen A: Doesn\'t have choice on what it can see.
Who is \"it\"? You are aware of the ability to filter right? Absolutely no reasoning involved in this statement.
Specimen B: Has a choice on what others will see. But decides to show them what they don\'t want to see, for personal comfort.
Again no reason involved at all. Use the filter. That is reasonable. It is a win-win situation. You, because of your barbaric ethnic-dislikes, won\'t have to see the French speakers. They don\'t have to stop speaking French. Of course that would require you to realize the reasonable nature of not being lazy.
Everything would be fine if they just used english.
Everything would be fine if they just used French and you weren\'t a bigot. But, hey, being a bigot is so much more reasonable than using the ignore filter. Right?
Would anything go wrong this way?
Morally? Technically? How are you asking? Morally, yes. You are of absolutely no more value than they are. Therefore your language is inherently no more valuable than theirs. You are digging yourself a hole, it is wise to stop before you never see the light of day again.
No. If those people are playing Planeshift then they must know english to play it in a correct manner (as in communicate with even random people). Everyone, and I repeat everyone would be fine otherwise. But no, they decide to do it their way, because.... Well, just because.
Everyone? Everyone except the person who is being forced[/i] to speak another language. Just because you find it suitable, does not mean everyone will agree with you. As has been made blatantly obvious by this entire discussion. Of course, that all goes with out saying, considering the original post. \"Just because\" is not sufficient. Leave PS, never come back, just because I told you to.
Reason, try to use it, if you\'re going to talk about it.
Reason, is it so hard to reason?
Apparently, it is very difficult for you. Either that or you do not understand what it means \"to reason\".
This is a role-playing game.
Wow. Glad you finally figured that out.
If they will only communicate with people with knowledge of the respective language, then the role-playing environment will get disrupted and small sub-communities will be created.
Filter. Sub-communities should be created if one wants this role-playing game to be realistic. Sub-communities should be created for a great many reasons: 1. alignment 2. craft 3. occupation 4. language 5. race 6. religion... and so on. That is what happens in cultures, if you want realism this is the perfect way to do it.
I believe many people addressed this issue already, you might want to read their posts more carefully.
2 people are not many people. I have read the posts. I am fully aware of the inanity of your arguments. \"Just because\" is not a good reason for anything.
Just like with the so-called \"trolls\"? This is really awesome how you promote disruption of community, it really is.
Promote disruption of the community? If they are ignored they can no longer disrupt you. Your deductive powers are amazingly infantile.
Also, I believe USA is much bigger than Yliakum, people there still have connections with other countries (whereas Yliakum doesn\'t) and people still come there from other countries, whilst Yliakum had its mass migration hundreds of years ago and right now is rathe seperated from other worlds.
Not according to Seytra. All aspects of PS are already implemented for RP purposes. Also there is no reason to believe (according to the information presented) that the portals are closed off entirely. And regardless of how many years ago the mass exodus was without knowledge of lifespans, racial dispersion, population (not to mention all of these statistics as relevent between levels) etc there is no reason to believe that any languages would have died out or been replaced by a single Common Tongue. Likewise, if lifespans are sufficiently long enough the languages themselves would have actually changed very little in that amount of time.
Try to figure out how it would be in USA if it was smaller and completely seperated from the rest of the world. There would be no need for study of other languages, and knowledge passed on would eventually blur and wane away.
I\'m sure you think this makes sense. In reality it doesn\'t. There are many factors, not governed or even having provision for in PS, that affect the change and replacement of language. This aspect of the argument is moot.
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I think this is becoming a little ridiculous now. Everyone is taking things way too personally, misinterpreting, putting things into the mouths of others, and trying to sneak in personal attacks. Is it so impossible to have a debate that does not fall into these pot-holes? This is addressed to both parties of the argument.
I also don\'t think there is anything else to debate about, really. English is the official language of PlaneShift, and other languages should be used via private channels (such as /group, /tell, /guild, etc.). This isn\'t a hard thing to do, nor is this a hard thing to adjust to. Insulting -anyone- for -any- OOC reason such as language, religion, culture, etc., isn\'t going to be tolerated. But it doesn\'t change the fact that English should be the primary language used in crowded public places.
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Askr: You\'ll have to excuse me, but I\'m not going to bother answering to your post. It would be pointless. If you\'d follow disagreeing with me with any reasons why, maybe. But right now - no.
And geez, I\'m not comparing speaking different language to murdering. I\'m showing it as a different form of disruption that actually has been dealt with for the goodwill of general community.
Edit:
Although I find this funny:
Everything would be fine if they just used english.
Everything would be fine if they just used French and you weren\'t a bigot. But, hey, being a bigot is so much more reasonable than using the ignore filter. Right?
I didn\'t create this thread. So apparently even without me being a biggot, not everything is fine.
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Thank you Karyuu. :) I have one point to make, and then I\'m done.
Askr: I\'d like to point out a flaw in your \"the different languages of the players correspond to the different languages of races in Yliakum.\" The issue is that you can\'t have all of the races randomly speaking different languages. Yes, it is true that someone with a French parent and a German parent can grow up speaking only Italian.
But this case is rare and unlikely. Most people of direct French descent speak French. Most people of direct Italian descent speak Italian. Most of the educated world also speaks English (this is not a rap on those that do not. I\'m sure there are some quite intelligent people who speak not a word of English). English represents the common \"interracial\" language for communication in Planeshift as it does in the real-world (I think we can agree on this?).
The problem arises when you look at the number of people of each race speaking each language. Thirteen races do not all have the same set of languages. I\'d guess that you\'d find a roughly even distribution of German-speaking players (example) over all of the races. Yes, it is possible for people of one race to learn the language of another. However, this is the exception not the rule. Unless you can make almost every Italian player play a dwarf, and every German player play a Klyros, etc. (note this is an example, of course, these specifics match-ups don\'t matter), then your role-play justification for languages doesn\'t work:
If languages are not realistic, they are not in-character (this is supposed to be a realistic world, fantasy elements aside).
Therefore, if they are not in-character, they do not belong in public chat.
I hope I\'ve reasoned this through thoroughly enough for your standards. ;)
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Originally posted by Cha0s
Askr: I\'d like to point out a flaw in your \"the different languages of the players correspond to the different languages of races in Yliakum.\" The issue is that you can\'t have all of the races randomly speaking different languages. Yes, it is true that someone with a French parent and a German parent can grow up speaking only Italian.
That is not my point. That was something someone else brought in response to my point.
But this case is rare and unlikely. Most people of direct French descent speak French. Most people of direct Italian descent speak Italian. Most of the educated world also speaks English (this is not a rap on those that do not. I\'m sure there are some quite intelligent people who speak not a word of English). English represents the common \"interracial\" language for communication in Planeshift as it does in the real-world (I think we can agree on this?).
I do not deny this. Matter of fact, several times I have been forced to point out the fact that I am entirely aware of this. And it appears, that yet again, I am forced to do so.
The problem arises when you look at the number of people of each race speaking each language. Thirteen races do not all have the same set of languages. I\'d guess that you\'d find a roughly even distribution of German-speaking players (example) over all of the races. Yes, it is possible for people of one race to learn the language of another. However, this is the exception not the rule. Unless you can make almost every Italian player play a dwarf, and every German player play a Klyros, etc. (note this is an example, of course, these specifics match-ups don\'t matter), then your role-play justification for languages doesn\'t work:
If languages are not realistic, they are not in-character (this is supposed to be a realistic world, fantasy elements aside).
Therefore, if they are not in-character, they do not belong in public chat.
And again, given what he have, the above statements do not lead to this conclusion. We have races that arrive in Yliakum from different locations...those locations are not specified.. the languages those races speak are not specified. The timeframe is not specified. The only fact is that English is a Common Tongue. We have no lifespans for said races. We have no geographical statistics -- what language is more predominant on what level. No cultural statistics. Etc. All of these things -- and more -- are necessary for a realistic examination of language.
Realism of language at this point is a matter of speculation, opinion, preference and assumption. Until there is provision made for determining language dispersion and transformation realistically, we cannot make the claims that have been made so far. IOW there is no valid reason why a language would have disappeared, changed, or intermixed with the language of any other race.
Create the necessary information and in a short period of time we can determine the number of languages still in existence, the dispersion of such languages, who is more likely to speak these languages (is it based upon social structure, occupation, level of education, location, etc). Then and only then will it be realistic.
Likewise, not every individual of a race needs speak the same language. There has been provision made in the game for a character of one race to have been raised in the village/city/realm of another race. Language should easily enough follow.
I hope I\'ve reasoned this through thoroughly enough for your standards. ;)
While I admit you were a bit more cordial about it, you are still basing everything upon the same assumptions. Logically you would come to the same conclusions. Therefore, your reasoning is really not much different than anyone elses.
To illustrate my point. If I follow your logic and considering the lack of information available at the moment, in addition to language we can safely assume that:
1. There is no retention of previous culture in any of the races (except perhaps Lemurs and Kran). This of course cannot be true because it would invalidate much of what has been written about each race so far.
2. There is no retention or continuation of previous racial strengths and weaknesses (except for perhaps Lemur and Kran). This of course cannot be true because it would invalidate much of what is going to be implemented in the future and what is known currently.
3. There is no differentiation between communities on different levels, much less on the same level. As has been pointed out many times, everything is already implemented in the RP world. :)
Why is that, you might say? Well because, as anyone who knows will tell you, language is the bearer of culture and a culture\'s customs. If the languages cease to exist then it follows that the culture has also, because the culture defines the language. Understand? If the language is gone, the culture that goes with it is gone. Example: to define something such as \"god and faith\" you do so by your culture\'s customs. Now let us say \"dyeus and bhedh\". You have something entirely different, though you have essentially stated the same thing. What you understand the words to mean depends upon your culture.
Therefore what we have is a single mass of different looking people, coming from different places, living on different levels and interacting/existing by different means but who, for some unknownable reason, are all just a like mentally and linguistically. This is both illogical and unrealistic. An example:
If these races have been interbreeding by necessity for say 750 years (which would be necessary according to the opposition), then there should be less differentiation between the races. No appearence will continue indefinitely, it will eventually be replaced by the appearence of new (shared) racial characteristics. Same goes with language, if the interbreeding was by necessity and the races have relatively short life-spans, then there would be fewer numbers retaining anything from the past and predominant use of a single language would result. This would also mean that the original cultures are now relatively nonexistant, except in foktales and distant memory (elders remembering the days when their grandfathers used to dance under the lunar light).
This is all very practical and realistic according to the information at hand. It is also really rather logical, again according to the information available. The only two races that thrived on their own were Lemurs and Kran. All other races came through portals and were in all likelihood very few. Therefore in order for the race to survive they would have had to interbreed. Inbreeding with too few couples causes the death of a species as everyone knows. With the necessary inter-breeding of the limited couples the languages, culture, and past identity would all die out in a few generations. The common tongue spoken would have in all likelihood been the speech of the Lemurs and Kran as they were created in Yliakum and were already established. Therefore it would have been their language that was picked up and then dispersed throughout the levels as the new \'tribes\', \'clans\', \'races\' (all in a rather limited sense) dispersed and spread through the realm. Then you must question why the dwarfs have such a pride of their race and the Xacha are proud of their origins and traditions, and so on and so forth.
I won\'t get into the possibilities if the races didn\'t arrive at a reasonably close interval.
I like my realism and logic to be a bit more realistic and logical. If we aren\'t going to conform to realism, then any language can be spoken by any person. Realism, reality, fact, are all objective they don\'t partially apply in certain but not all situations -- even in a game world -- or else they are in fact not realistic, reality, or fact. Basically, if you want realism be realistic. Don\'t just claim realism because you can.
In all of this I find it humorous that there has been suggested ways to make the different races speak different languages and not be understandable by the other races. That would of course be acceptable and not disruptive. But speaking French is disruptive, a sign of laziness, poor etiquette, grounds for hostility and segregation -- all because it is spam and will cram the chat window. What choice words will we call those who don\'t speak our language if that feature is implemented? Perhaps by then we can be more creative.
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Originally posted by Seytra
Originally posted by fken
do you feel its a threat for you?
Oh, please come on and be reasonable, OK? Noone said they felt threatened. :rolleyes: However, as has also been beaten to death, the segregation issue does exist, and that issue is a threat. Not to anyone in particular, but to the entire community, regardless of native language. Even if you are not prone to segregation, others are and will be, I don\'t see reason to deny that.
Then you are right. To prevent segregation we should accept everything the racists want (the problem is that i dunno how to say the one who make segregation in english so i call them racists... if you wanna teach me the good word by pm you would be welcome)!
To prevent any anti german feelings (for example and its still a good example because some dumb people still think they are allowed to say \"hi hitler\" in front of some germans...) we should forbid german, we should hide it at all cost!
I speak about german because each time i used the term french a guy answered me that its not specific to french and i totally agree (but i never wanted to speak about a french / english issue but i wanted to speak about an every non english language / english issue).
In fact, I find it strange... To prevent from segregation you forbid foreigner languages and force foreigners to hide their languages (to sum up, to prevent from abusing you do exactly what abusers want). It\'s strange because it\'s not the main policy i saw in our occidental countries... but maybe it\'s something that you like : i mean that I think that even if you are against the way the racists (cf : previous explanation), you follow their ideas than you agree with them. I am sure english is your primary language... I dunno why...
@karyuu: you said you dunno what is annoying with forbiding english in say chan? But the question I wanna ask you is : what s the problem in accepting that people speak foreigner languages? Dont forget that, if a guy speak in portuguese, the message would NOT be destined to you...
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Originally posted by fken
Then you are right. To prevent segregation we should accept everything the racists want (the problem is that i dunno how to say the one who make segregation in english so i call them racists... if you wanna teach me the good word by pm you would be welcome)!
Interesting how I am a racist now, seeing as I don\'t consider Brits to be a superiour race...
I can give you a better word right here:
Rationalist
For better understanding: Reliance on reason as the best guide for belief and action.
You might want to re-read this thread as the question you asked Karyuu has been answered many times so far.
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Originally posted by Cha0s
If languages are not realistic, they are not in-character (this is supposed to be a realistic world, fantasy elements aside).
Therefore, if they are not in-character, they do not belong in public chat.
Heh, nice workaround :D
Do you study law or anything? ;)
I must say though, I agree with you.
/me tapes Seytra\'s and Askr\'s mouths.
If the forum should ever explode, I will blame you two personally. Seriously, how many people do you think still read a posting after having scrolled down like 2385 times, especially since the thread, in essence, is a \"yes/no, because...\" matter
;)
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Originally posted by fken
Then you are right. To prevent segregation we should accept everything the want!
There is a very distinct difference, and the reasons have been stated multiple times already, including by me.
Originally posted by fken
To prevent any anti german feelings (for example and its still a good example because some dumb people still think they are allowed to say \"hi hitler\" in front of some germans...) we should forbid german, we should hide it at all cost!
No, definitely not. It is perfectly acceptable to say: \"(Hi, I\'m , can someone please help me with the GUI)\". It is, however, not acceptable to say the same thing in . The difference is that with the first, you don\'t purposefully exclude others, whle in the second one you do. This isn\'t so bad in OOC chat as it is in IC chat, but that has been elaborated on before so no use in repeating it.
Originally posted by fken
I speak about german because each time i used the term french a guy answered me that its not specific to french and i totally agree (but i never wanted to speak about a french / english issue but i wanted to speak about an every non english language / english issue).
That person probably was me, because I want to make sure that there won\'t be any misunderstanding. It\'s the same for all languages. Even old english classifies, because non native speakers (and even native ones) will likely have severe trouble understanding that as well. Likewise, \"dumbed down talk\" (Like pseudo-phonetic speak to indicate that the character is extremely low on INT) can\'t be used. I have personally witnessed someone using a translator being completely unable to understand the person who used such talk.
Originally posted by fken
In fact, I find it strange... To prevent from segregation you forbid foreigner languages and force foreigners to hide their languages (to sum up, to prevent from abusing you do exactly what abusers want).
Seriously, if you don\'t see how allowing non-english does lead to segregation, despite it having been explained several times by now, I cannot blame you for seeing it this way. But at the same time I see myself unable to ever make my reasoning understandable to you.
Originally posted by fken
It\'s strange because it\'s not the main policy i saw in our occidental countries... but maybe it\'s something that you like : i mean that I think that even if you are against the way the (cf : previous explanation), you follow their ideas than you agree with them.
No, my ideas may occasionally result in advocating measures that superficially seem similar to those employed by the , but they nontheless are completely different. My ideas (in general) are that individual nations are unnecessary and that the world would be better off without the nationalistic ideals of \"my country\" and \"patriotism\". Likewise, the world would be better off using one single language instead of a gazillion ones.
I do not want to segregate, I want to unify. The two ideas couldn\'t be opposed more. By having one single, common language, every newcomer actually enriches the community by naturally adding to it, whereas by not having one single language newcomers would end up banding together not for reasons of friendship, guilds, char alignment or char religion, but by language.
Noone would advocate to form, say, a guild for christians (or any other religion) only, yet the idea is the exact same as with languages.
I do see that the language issue is more prone to feelings and misunderstood pride because ignoring it is harder than with religious differences (though RL occurances as well as history obviously prove that those can just as well be misinterpreted and abused). After all you need to learn a new language. However, we are talking about people who are already capable of speaking english, so it\'s merely less convenient for a while.
Different languages are a result of physical separation of communities in the past, and as such are a thing of the past. They don\'t serve any purpose, and never did (they simply didn\'t really hurt in the distant past). It has been argued that languages are what bears culture, even defines it. However, this is not at all true: english is spoken in the UK, Ireland and America. Yet their cultures and views differ just as much as, for example, the UK\'s, Germany\'s and Poland\'s. IOW, there cannot be any dependance on language because if there was, the differences would be infinitely larger than they actually are. Saying that a language defines a culture degrades the actually interesting thing \"culture\" to a mere side effect and is similar to saying that skin color defines, well, anything except how much light you reflect.
Originally posted by fken
I am sure english is your primary language... I dunno why...
Thanks for the compliment, but it isn\'t.
Originally posted by fken
@karyuu: you said you dunno what is annoying with forbiding english in say chan? But the question I wanna ask you is : what s the problem in accepting that people speak foreigner languages? Dont forget that, if a guy speak in portuguese, the message would NOT be destined to you...
That has been answered too many times to count, quote or reply to.
@Pogopuschel: *counts* could be 7 *calculates* maybe 4. I do agree, though.
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Originally posted by Pogopuschel
/me tapes Seytra\'s and Askr\'s mouths.
If the forum should ever explode, I will blame you two personally. Seriously, how many people do you think still read a posting after having scrolled down like 2385 times, especially since the thread, in essence, is a \"yes/no, because...\" matter
;)
;) I tried to explain the Agree to disagree theory .... ehm.. it seems to have been over looked. I tried Pogopuschel, I am hoping your words are read and taken seriously. :D I stopped reading this thread like a page ago, I just look for the positive in it now ...... it is indeed irritating to have to scoll down like 2385 times.......
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pffffffffffff
Ok I am too busy to keep on speaking about that useless subject... On the french forum, a guy who played much more time than me posted that devs already spoke about that subject in favour of \"the foreigner languages in the /say chan\" subject. Moreover, I had the feeling that I am the only one who used his time to speak about that with you... I know some people who think its becoming very very boring to speak about that subject another time (and are quite angry against this idea)... and finally i must recognize I would better had to follow their experienced advices instead of debating about that... especially if this subject is opened each 2 or 3 monthes...
Really all the time i spend to try to share my opinion with you has been wasted by speaking with some people who are saying now that I said they are racists or anything else... I though these kind of guys would be able to imagine that english isnt my primary language, isnt my secondary language But my third language and would try to understand what i mean but in fact all they are able to do is to misunderstand my opinion because their only goal is to be right and to prove the others are wrong. There is no good exit in speaking like that and experience will show that fact to you... Really, I would rather have finished my once registration script instead of thinking debating on a mmorpg forum would be useful... I have a lot of work to do for my studies, I have a lot of work to do for Once, I have a few free time and finally i waste it like that... there is an adjective to describe that: masochism...
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Cut the drama, fken.
Low knowledge of english isn\'t an excuse to offend people, the more that dictionaries are rather common over the internet.
Not to mention your posts show that you have a hold of the language and what you address by saying \'racist\'.
And about masochism, check a dictionary.