PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rilar on November 10, 2005, 04:17:26 am
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I tried now a few times to include religion in my RP but it never was pleasant due to many inconsistencies.
So I worked through the setting history and wrote down the questions which came in my mind while reading it.
Here are the cites and my thoughts.
\"Laanx and Talad were Gods before the races ever existed in Yliakum.\"
=> Why were there creatures in the big cave and the stone labyrinths unnoticed by them and who created them?
\"Laanx and Talad were beautiful and harmonious; they were inquisitive and always looking for new knowledge to enrich their eternal lives.\"
=> Who gave them \"birth\"? are they gods without ending but with a beginning? And if the latter, who was the first god?
=> Both are not omnipotent nor omniscient. => What about the other, ancient gods?
=> What is the definition of \"god\" here?
\"Laanx was a tall and perfectly shaped female with long, white hair as silky as the threads of a spider\'s web. Her lunar skin reflected the azure beams of the crystal and refracted the light into hypnotic patterns as alluring as her dancing, ruby-coloured eyes. A thin silver band clasped Laanx\'s left ankle. She was evanescent, cold and yet yielding, light and ethereal like the evening air.
Talad was like an ebony statue, with powerful muscles and long, proportioned bones. Thick black curls cascaded down over his broad shoulders and down his back, and a thick gold armlet clasped Talad\'s right bicep. Talad was solid, warm and determined, dense and impetuous as a river of molten lava.\"
=> They are not \"spiritual\" nor \"ethereal\" but physical. => Where did they live?
\"Guided by an ancient and powerful god, named Vod?l, god of the future events\"
=> Is this god omniscient? What are his attributes? his background?
Talad and Laanx realized the nature of the crystal and wanted to create a prosperous dominion with people to worship them.
=> Why? Because they are lonely? Because they want to control? What are their reasons? Just for fun?
\"Other gods, older and more powerful than they, told them about great tasks they would have to perform when their worshippers became ready to follow their directions.\"
=> Who are the other gods? If they are more powerful than Talad and Laanx, why don`t they reveal their existence to the people of Yliakum? Why not worship them?
\"[...]young gods Laanx and Talad didn\'t ask any other details, or pay much attention to the warnings.\"
=> They are not wise, not to say stupid.
=> They are young. => again, what is the definition of god here? how can a god be young?
\"[...] where other creatures were already lurking in the dark.\"
=> Where did they come from? Who created them?
\"Talad and Laanx prayed to Vod?l to lure some races from the other gods and to bring them to Yliakum. Vod?l agreed theirr requests, but in exchange wished for Talad to become one of his servants and Laanx to become one of his lovers. Laanx and Talad accepted the exchange, because Vod?l was a kind master and a pleasant consort.\"
=> Why would a god need a servant and a lover?
=> If those gods do have needs and wishes like normal mortals what are those wishes and needs? Are those gods mortal/killable?
\"[...] a tempest of chaos burst forth from the god\'s hands and hit Laanx on her face, penetrating deeply into her body, and she became forever disfigured.\"
=> She is a god, why can`t she heal herself or get healed by a more powerful god?
\"There must be a remedy. Come back and we will be One again.\"
=> When were they One? Nowhere in the history is mentioned something similar.
\"Many other times Laanx rejected Talad\'s entreaties to reconcile with him.\"
=> Laanx became a \"he\". I never thought about a god having a gender. => Why should a god need a gender if he (or better \"it\" ) can replicate with a word/ritual?
EDIT: And to give respect to the \"theodicy\" mentioned in the title:
Where did the evil come from in the world of Yliakum? Just because of this accident?
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*shuffles slightly away from amogorkon, and waits for the flash of lightning*
when analyzed too close religion rarely lines up too well.
but to answer one of your questions. the nature of gods is a bit odd. but, it kind of goes something like this. a god is not bound by the whims and powers of the mortal realms. but, gods are bound by the oaths and powers of the godly realms. what happens in those realms, is permanent.
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If there is a power higher than laanx and talad they have no business bossing us around. why should we put up with this?
*sesmi norkuru leaves to found the Vod?lian religion*
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but to answer one of your questions. the nature of gods is a bit odd. but, it kind of goes something like this. a god is not bound by the whims and powers of the mortal realms. but, gods are bound by the oaths and powers of the godly realms. what happens in those realms, is permanent.
Well, considering magic I think the boundries are fluent. The ones without any knowledge about magic are on the lowest level. That would explain then the status of the demi-gods (GMs).. but it also would question the status of Laanx and Talad. Who has the absolute power? Who created the world?
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The description of Vod?l is extremely vague. He obviously isn\'t all powerful or all knowing, unless he intended for Laanx and Talad to fall from grace as they did. \"God of future events\" might simply mean that he happened to cause certain things to get into motion, that he has the tendancy to set things in motion, or he has the responsible to set things in motion. It might simply mean that he knows the future, the near future, the distant future, possible futures, etc. It\'s extremely vague and open minded.
But yes, they\'re the only official Gods. Certain guilds have brought in references to outside Gods and beings (Dragons courtesy of the Dragon Council, Anubis courtesy of Deus ex Trucido, the Latin language thanks to various guilds and individuals). People keep trying to make references to gods of greek, egyptian, and norse mythology and they got shot down since the references are OOC and do not exist in the planeshift world.
People are thursting for a more complex and diverse theology.
I think the solution is in books. Release books of tales and short stories which reference numerous Gods and divine beings. Give them character, give them colour, give them substance. They don\'t have to be \"real\" like Talad and Laanx are, they would be part of the mythology of the locals.
The problem is that here on Earth, we have six to ten millenia to draw on for our civilization while the planeshift world only has around 750 years. Mythology would necessarily be drawn from the cultures outside of the immediate planeshift world and would be based in the cultures that the individual races emmigrated from and later passed down in a written and oral tradition.
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some of that has already been attempted zanzibar, for example a myth of gods and men (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=14652&boardid=15) and chain of souls (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=11668&boardid=15). if not new gods atleast a bit of fleshing out of the very few exsisting ones. there are probably others lurking the rp forum.
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Originally posted by steuben
some of that has already been attempted zanzibar, for example a myth of gods and men (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=14652&boardid=15) and chain of souls (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=11668&boardid=15). if not new gods atleast a bit of fleshing out of the very few exsisting ones. there are probably others lurking the rp forum.
I don\'t consider community story writing to be cannon.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
The description of Vod?l is extremely vague. He obviously isn\'t all powerful or all knowing, unless he intended for Laanx and Talad to fall from grace as they did. \"God of future events\" might simply mean that he happened to cause certain things to get into motion, that he has the tendancy to set things in motion, or he has the responsible to set things in motion. It might simply mean that he knows the future, the near future, the distant future, possible futures, etc. It\'s extremely vague
Yes, Vod?l doesn\'t seem to ever have revealed himself to anyone in or outide Yliakum. To me it is like he is an ancient god who either has lots of other realms under his control, or has no need / desire for this anymore.
Originally posted by zanzibar
and open minded.
I seriously don\'t think this qualifier has any sort of place here. In fact, I think this is being used way too extensively recently, and almost never in a case that justifies it. Vagueness doesn\'t equal open mindedness, nor anything else that may be positive. Being vague is positive only in very few instances and this certainly isn\'t one of them.
Originally posted by zanzibar
But yes, they\'re the only official Gods. Certain guilds have brought in references to outside Gods and beings (Dragons courtesy of the Dragon Council, Anubis courtesy of Deus ex Trucido, the Latin language thanks to various guilds and individuals). People keep trying to make references to gods of greek, egyptian, and norse mythology and they got shot down since the references are OOC and do not exist in the planeshift world.
People are thursting for a more complex and diverse theology.
Most of all people need, as has been discussed on another thread already, details, facts and myths about the existing religions that actually appy to the people, things that can actually be used in everyday RP.
What is in the history is for the most part divine knowledge, i.e., knowledge not even the highest priests of both Talad or Laanx would possess. I was quite surprised to hear NPCs talking about specific events, like Laanx trying to force his will onto the first Klyros, which is something noone would know of.
However, this thing isn\'t that usable in RP either, and for the most part only some general aspects of the god\'s personalities could be assumed to be actually known by the Yliaki, which isn\'t nearly enough to base a religion and certainly not worshipping upon.
Originally posted by zanzibar
I think the solution is in books. Release books of tales and short stories which reference numerous Gods and divine beings. Give them character, give them colour, give them substance. They don\'t have to be \"real\" like Talad and Laanx are, they would be part of the mythology of the locals.
Yes, this would be one way. Eventually, the story section also needs some additions, but the books are more RP.
From what Talad posted on the results of the MB vs CB thread, though, I get it that these things are actually being worked on ATM, and some of the books in the library already contain things that were not taken from the website, which would be in line with that assumption.
Originally posted by zanzibar
The problem is that here on Earth, we have six to ten millenia to draw on for our civilization while the planeshift world only has around 750 years. Mythology would necessarily be drawn from the cultures outside of the immediate planeshift world and would be based in the cultures that the individual races emmigrated from and later passed down in a written and oral tradition.
Yes, the history does make one or two references to some races having had other religions before they came to Yliakum, and that they gave up on them in favor of Laanx or Talad.
The black Flame is out of the equation because it appeared outside Yliakum and only after Laanx and his followers (literally :) ) left that place, so it can\'t be known in Yliakum.
Vod?l doesn\'t seem to have even been known to any of the races even before they went to Yliakum, so he isn\'t available for RP use as well.
Then we have the reference to \"Other, older gods\", who aren\'t mentioned and may or may not be, in part, those previously worshipped by some races. No reference is given that any god besides Laanx or Talad ever had any sort of interest in Yliakum or it\'s inhabitants, meaning that religions devoted to them would have become mere traditions without actual function upon entering Yliakum, which would also explain the ease with which these were forgotten and abandoned, if we assume that the other gods had interacted with their followers like Laanx and Talad (making temples, smiting people, etc.).
As has also been established on the other thread, the gods of Yliakum are very different from the gods that are popular IRL ATM. In fact, they are very similar to the roman, greek or whatever gods in that they are highly human, have the same flaws and desires as humans, with the only difference being that they possess an immense, but infinite, amount of power and possibly knowledge.
None is omniscient, as their stupidity and lack of knowledge for what will come proves. None of them is omnipotent either, as their need to rely on the crystals power and that of other, mor powerful but still not all powerful gods proves. An all-powerful gow would not have one single domain, like Vod?l has, either. An all-powerful and all-knowing god could only exist on it\'s own, as more than one would not make any sort of sense and wouldn\'t be discernible in any way, which would mean they\'d appear as one anyway.
With that, all your questions are answerable:
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Laanx and Talad were Gods before the races ever existed in Yliakum.\"
=> Why were there creatures in the big cave and the stone labyrinths unnoticed by them and who created them?
There have been other gods before them, who created the other creatures. One can also assume that the other gods may or may not have tried to destroy each other\'s creations, creating hostile beings to do that. Gods are just as dumb as RL humans.
Adding to that, given that the crystal had a mutating effect on the Nolthrir, similar effects, albeit smaller, or plain common evolution may have occured without the gods intervention (or even knowledge), making for other creatures to come into existance.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Laanx and Talad were beautiful and harmonious; they were inquisitive and always looking for new knowledge to enrich their eternal lives.\"
=> Who gave them \"birth\"? are they gods without ending but with a beginning? And if the latter, who was the first god?
It isn\'t strictly necessary to be born in the conventional sense. It may be possible that gods just come into existance \"by accident\".
The theory that gods start to exist because people make them up and start believing in them doesn\'t fit Laanx and Talad well, but it might nontheless have spawned some of the other, older gods who in turn might have created Laanx and Talad.
Also, it is possible that common beings eventually became gods, whioch could also be how Laanx and Talad came into existance.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> Both are not omnipotent nor omniscient. => What about the other, ancient gods?
There is no indication of any of them to be either omniscient or omnipotent. They\'re like the ancients gods (greek, roman, etc.): fallible and quite human.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> What is the definition of \"god\" here?
AFAICS, it can be only \"A being that is immortal and highly powerful and that can be harmed only by other similar beings.\". In fact, by this definition, it qould be quite possible (though still extremely improbable) for an Yliaki to become a god itself.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Laanx was a tall and perfectly shaped female with long, white hair as silky as the threads of a spider\'s web. Her lunar skin reflected the azure beams of the crystal and refracted the light into hypnotic patterns as alluring as her dancing, ruby-coloured eyes. A thin silver band clasped Laanx\'s left ankle. She was evanescent, cold and yet yielding, light and ethereal like the evening air.
Talad was like an ebony statue, with powerful muscles and long, proportioned bones. Thick black curls cascaded down over his broad shoulders and down his back, and a thick gold armlet clasped Talad\'s right bicep. Talad was solid, warm and determined, dense and impetuous as a river of molten lava.\"
=> They are not \"spiritual\" nor \"ethereal\" but physical. => Where did they live?
Given that this description may still not refer to physical existance, it is possibel that they existed and lived anywhere. Likely they travelled the universe until stumbling onto the planet containing what became Yliakum. The history seems to hint at this:
Originally posted on the history section
Guided by an ancient and powerful god, named Vod?l, god of the future events, they discovered one quiet planet with a crystal column full of energy and mystery.
This means that 1) Vod?l showed them the place (which makes it possible that he, being the god of future events, either foresaw or intended to happen what eventually happened, proving that he is fallible and prone to selfishness just like any other being and 2) they did not originate at the planet Yliakum is in.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Guided by an ancient and powerful god, named Vod?l, god of the future events\"
=> Is this god omniscient? What are his attributes? his background?
Not necessarily. He merely is more powerful, with powers that specialise in \"divination\" (nice pun :) ), but he doesn\'t have to be omniscient for that. It wouldnot even be possible, because otherwise he would not only be god of future events, but of everything, since he quite obviously has selfish desires and knowing / being able to shape what will happen would render efforts and powers of all other gods useless and ineffective.
Originally posted by amogorkon
Talad and Laanx realized the nature of the crystal and wanted to create a prosperous dominion with people to worship them.
=> Why? Because they are lonely? Because they want to control? What are their reasons? Just for fun?
The remainder of the history hints that they indeed desired to be worshipped. Fame and glory. Lust for control likely as well.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Other gods, older and more powerful than they, told them about great tasks they would have to perform when their worshippers became ready to follow their directions.\"
=> Who are the other gods? If they are more powerful than Talad and Laanx, why don`t they reveal their existence to the people of Yliakum? Why not worship them?
Likely they already have their followers elsewhere and don\'t bother. Maybe they even have some sort of territorial agreement.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"[...]young gods Laanx and Talad didn\'t ask any other details, or pay much attention to the warnings.\"
=> They are not wise, not to say stupid.
Nowhere the history says they were wise. In fact I fully agree that they are stupid and should be demoted from divine-ness. ;)
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> They are young. => again, what is the definition of god here? how can a god be young?
Given that a god can come into existance at any point in time, one can easily be \"young\" compared to other gods. The roman and other religions provide more similarity.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"[...] where other creatures were already lurking in the dark.\"
=> Where did they come from? Who created them?
Other gods and evolution, likely, as stated above.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Talad and Laanx prayed to Vod?l to lure some races from the other gods and to bring them to Yliakum. Vod?l agreed theirr requests, but in exchange wished for Talad to become one of his servants and Laanx to become one of his lovers. Laanx and Talad accepted the exchange, because Vod?l was a kind master and a pleasant consort.\"
=> Why would a god need a servant and a lover?
Because they\'re as imperfect and human as the greek and other gods. The concept of perfection and omnipotence / omniscience is only comparatively recent.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> If those gods do have needs and wishes like normal mortals what are those wishes and needs? Are those gods mortal/killable?
Likely they are not killable by means other than divine powers, but I assume that they are, at least in theory, killable. Given that they existed before they were worshipped, lack of worshipping wouldn\'t likely make them cease to exist, though.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"[...] a tempest of chaos burst forth from the god\'s hands and hit Laanx on her face, penetrating deeply into her body, and she became forever disfigured.\"
=> She is a god, why can`t she heal herself or get healed by a more powerful god?
Because god does not equal being all powerful. She would likely be killed by extreme force and divine powers.
The distinction \"divine power\" and \"extremely powerful\" is quite blurry, which is completely in-line with mortals in theory becoming gods and gods coming into existance by other means. The crystal\'s power that Talad used can obviously not classify as \"divine\", therefore it must be concluded that extreme power is not just in it\'s effect indistinguishable from divine power, and likely is the exact same thing. It is no coincidence that both the gods and the Yliakii use the very same power: the crystal\'s magic.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"There must be a remedy. Come back and we will be One again.\"
=> When were they One? Nowhere in the history is mentioned something similar.
Being one refers to them being tight friends and likely lovers. Unity in spirit, so to speak. This was the case in the beginning of the history.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Many other times Laanx rejected Talad\'s entreaties to reconcile with him.\"
=> Laanx became a \"he\". I never thought about a god having a gender. => Why should a god need a gender if he (or better \"it\" ) can replicate with a word/ritual?
They can\'t replicate. Even if, it is still possible that, given the other similarity to humans, they actually would draw pleasure from physical love even if it doesn\'t serve reproductive purposes. This is, again, highly similar to roman, greek, etc. mythology.
Also, the issue whether Laanx became male isn\'t as clear as it seems, and in fact I am inclined (even without the tipsy bug ;) ) to believe that she didn\'t actually change gender.
Originally posted by amogorkon
EDIT: And to give respect to the \"theodicy\" mentioned in the title:
Where did the evil come from in the world of Yliakum? Just because of this accident?
No, the evil in Yliakum comes from the races that were created or brought to Yliakum. Since the gods are obviously flawed, they are just as likely to create flawed creatures. Also, the creatures they did not create obviously can be evil as well.
Diaboli can be seen as comparatively evil, and since there is no notion of any race being not evil, but there is the notion of differences in the history, one must conclude that every race and individual bears within it both good and evil.
Originally posted by zanzibar
I don\'t consider community story writing to be cannon.
Indeed. If it was, then we\'d have to accept every single made-up god (and in fact, everything any random player comes up with, like vampires and such), which would clearly destroy PS. Therefore, the only things that can be reliably used are what are stated on the website, and maybe the books in the library. The char creation doesn\'t fit in nearly well enough to be considered official AFAICS.
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The black Flame is out of the equation because it appeared outside Yliakum and only after Laanx and his followers (literally ) left that place, so it can\'t be known in Yliakum.
That`s only one point I have forgotten to mention. Why is the Black Flame mentioned in the char creation if it (after the official history) it is not known to the normal ylian? It is mereley a sidenote, now. I guess that this has to be clearified in the coming books.
Another point I forgot:
Laanx and Talad are bound to Vodul. Are divine pacts brakeable? Who would punish if it was broken? And if it is not been broken it is highly unlikely that Vodul is not intervening at all. At least both, Laanx and Talad has to fulfill their side of the pact by serving.. how is this expressed?
An all-powerful and all-knowing god could only exist on it\'s own, as more than one would not make any sort of sense and wouldn\'t be discernible in any way, which would mean they\'d appear as one anyway.
That`s not true. An omniscient being could exist indeed on its own. And foreseeing the future doesnt bring the power to change it. In fact this is one way to explain the evil in the theodicy. Maybe I should have explained a bit about the theodicy.
The theodicy is the question why there is evil in the world. There are several possibilities to answer:
Either god is not all-good, means he brings evil (catastrophes, criminalism and everything else which \"punishes\" people who didnt \"deserve\" it from our point of view). Another possibity is to restrict the gods power by other beings with the same level of power. This is the case in many religions. Two or more concurrenting powers struggle in an neverending fight.
Another possibility is that god is omnipotent but not all-knowing. He created everything and lost control over the ongoings in detail. But still he has those powers..
It would have been more interesting to have an omnipotent god against an omniscient one ;-)
In fact I see the analogies to the greek and roman theology, too. But before I assume things which will be revised after having rped it already I take the official history by word.
Likely they already have their followers elsewhere and don\'t bother. Maybe they even have some sort of territorial agreement.
One could think that. But if they still exist it wouldnt be far for Laanx to make an intrigue against Talad involving the other gods.
Given that this description may still not refer to physical existance, it is possibel that they existed and lived anywhere.
How do you explain the \"thick red cloak\" then? It doesnt seem to me much metaphorical in this context.
Given that they existed before they were worshipped, lack of worshipping wouldn\'t likely make them cease to exist, though.
*snicker* As long as they don`t commit suicide... *imagines Laanx whining \"nobody worships me...\"*
Given that a god can come into existance at any point in time, one can easily be \"young\" compared to other gods. The roman and other religions provide more similarity.
In those religions gods doesn`t \"come into existance\". They get created and born like other beings. And in fact in each of those religions there is one god who \"came into existance\" at first and which is the \"unmoved mover\". Who is it in PS? I doubt it is Vogul because he already seems pretty omniscient to me.
BTW, where do those crystals come from?
They can\'t replicate.
In all those religions they can by sex, \"merging their spirits\", by rituals. Why shouldn`t they be able to in PS?
[...] like vampires and such
*sighs* I don`t share this opinion but this isn`t the thread to discuss this matter.
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Thing is, I read the history as if it\'s my character who\'s reading it. Perhaps it\'s true, perhaps it\'s lore, perhaps somewhere inbetween. After all, how would the characters in the game know exactly what happened?
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Thing is, I read the history as if it\'s my character who\'s reading it.
Thing is that your character can`t know the history how it was written on the homepage. This is ooc knowledge because it is written from an omniscient perspective.
For example: how could Talad (and he has a little bigger chance to get the information than a normal IG-char, hasn`t he?) know about the things Laanx did while he (or she) was hidden?
Those are the settings, the things how they \"really\" happened. Everything else is derived from that.
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you\'re still thinking too hard about this.
don\'t forget this one thing. what is known about religion is the \"words of a god\" run through the mind of a yliak. and then through the mouth to the ear to the hand to the paper. and then the paper is copied by hand through several generations.
it\'s like trying to read a fax of a photocopy of a fax.... which given today\'s technology doesn\'t mean as much as it once did.
religon should never be interpreted literally first. it leads to oddness.
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Originally posted by Seytra
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> What is the definition of \"god\" here?
AFAICS, it can be only \"A being that is immortal and highly powerful and that can be harmed only by other similar beings.\". In fact, by this definition, it qould be quite possible (though still extremely improbable) for an Yliaki to become a god itself.
Immortality isn\'t a must to consider something a god... Look at norse pantheon.
God is simply being that greatly surpasses us in all sorts of things.
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You should know better there are no gods! :D
Originally posted by AendarCallenlasse
\"Any truly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.\"
Arthur C Clarke
and surely to a truly primative culture a magician is one step away from godhood.
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religon should never be interpreted literally first. it leads to oddness.
I think we might have a bigger problem here than I expected. As I stated before IMO those settings are OOC knowledge.
This history was written to serve at least one purpose: to connect the things which they want to implement in the game, to give them a purpose and a logical background. IMHO this history is the objective reality of PS. Objective reality is a central term in scienctific and ontological philosophy. It means the \"real reality\" we cannot grasp on our own because the reality we experience is always subjective.
It would help if someone, best Talad himself, would state at whom this history is directed. Is the history as it is written on the homepage common knowledge amongst all ylians? Or is it background knowledge for the players?
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Obviously you are right. All the info found in history page is ooc thing made for the purpose letting players to know more about the world they\'re playing.
There\'s no point in discussing this. Just take that as a fact. As it should be taken.
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As I stated before IMO those settings are OOC knowledge.
why? what would the priests of the temples preach about the coming of yliaki to yliakium.
but i want to clarify one thing. what you are saying is that since it is not in a physical book in a library somewhere in yliakium or the death realm it is not known?
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what you are saying is that since it is not in a physical book in a library somewhere in yliakium or the death realm it is not known?
Well, it doesnt have to be in a book.. but as far as I understand that matter it priests of Talad and priests of Laanx will only know parts of this story.
The priests of Laanx will say Laanx is the only creator, Taladpriests will praise Talad for his deeds.
The whole history as it is written down on the homepage is not known to one single individuum IC (as long as it is not omniscient).
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Originally posted by amogorkon
=> Why were there creatures in the big cave and the stone labyrinths unnoticed by them and who created them?
Perhaps they came with the races that came to PS. Through the portals that is. Or perhaps they are other attempts of Talad before finally succeeding with the Krans.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> Who gave them \"birth\"? are they gods without ending but with a beginning? And if the latter, who was the first god?
=> Both are not omnipotent nor omniscient. => What about the other, ancient gods?
=> What is the definition of \"god\" here?
These things aren\'t told to us mere mortals. Perhaps they are mortals that transended. Perhaps it\'s a freak natural occurance. There should be a creation story though I think. Every religion has one.
I asume if Talad and Laanx aren\'t omnipotent neither are the others.
Obviously these are gods like the greek gods. Powerfull to the point we can\'t comprehend but with their own flaws and personalities.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> They are not \"spiritual\" nor \"ethereal\" but physical. => Where did they live?
Although they have physical appearances this doesn\'t mean they have physical needs like us. If I read the story correctly I guess they were traveling the universe. Looking for something interesting or perhaps they\'re own place or simply exploring.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Guided by an ancient and powerful god, named Vod?l, god of the future events\"
=> Is this god omniscient? What are his attributes? his background?
We don\'t know much about him, but I don\'t really like him much in the story. He has no real purpose and if the story would be rewritten I would recommend or tell more or scrap him as he isn\'t needed for Talad to experiment and fail were Laanx succeeded.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> Why? Because they are lonely? Because they want to control? What are their reasons? Just for fun?
Why do people take pets? Could be so many reasons. Perhaps like some people they just had the urge to create something and perhaps creating a civilization gives them something to be proud of.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> Who are the other gods? If they are more powerful than Talad and Laanx, why don`t they reveal their existence to the people of Yliakum? Why not worship them?
As these are greek gods I asume they have their own terrotories. Laanx and Talad claimed Yliakum for themselves and apparently there is enough room for the gods to have their needs filled elsewhere.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> They are not wise, not to say stupid.
=> They are young. => again, what is the definition of god here? how can a god be young?
old is relative ofcourse. old for a human would be nothing to a god. Aparently the gods are born and talad and laanx are born after many other gods.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> Why would a god need a servant and a lover?
=> If those gods do have needs and wishes like normal mortals what are those wishes and needs? Are those gods mortal/killable?
Greek styled gods have flaws needs and feelings just like humans and so thats why he could need a lover and a servant
wishes we can not know. It\'s already hard to know what someone else wants. Sow we can\'t know for sure what a god would want as their experiences are so different from ours.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> She is a god, why can`t she heal herself or get healed by a more powerful god?
god, but not omnipetent. For example Talad and Laanx couldn\'t make creatures themselves they needed the power of the crystal to do so. Why a more powerfull god didn\'t help? They had nothing to offer perhaps or perhaps noone knew how to heal a god as this had never happened before.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> When were they One? Nowhere in the history is mentioned something similar.
one pair perhaps. Hard to know how connections between gods are.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> Laanx became a \"he\". I never thought about a god having a gender. => Why should a god need a gender if he (or better \"it\" ) can replicate with a word/ritual?
Who says he can replicate with a word? As I said Talad and Laanx couldn\'t even make mortals without the crystals power. Would think it would then not be easy to make other gods just like that.
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I am perfectly sure that the entire history can only be OOC. The way it is written, the detail that is provided allows for this conclusion only, including one point:
If you talk to the Laanx priests, they will deny Talads existance, which is perfectly in line with what Laanx would want them to believe (after all, he doesn\'t want anyone to believe in Talad). This makes it impossible for anything like the history page\'s story to actually emerge. What would happen is that two distinctly different stories emerge, one for Laanx, one for Talad, and none of these stories would therefore try to give an explanation for what happened before Laanx and Talad split. In fact, both would claim that there was no split because there was never another god. IOW, they would extrapolate backwards from the current state, and in doing so there can never be a merger.
It is possible to say that the NPC talk isn\'t matched with the settings well, so that the priests may very well recognise the other god\'s existance. This would then allow saying that the roman and greek gods and stories were made up by their priests. However, an important difference is that both Talad and Laanx actually do exist, and thus did actually, provably, interact with their followers. Just think of the temple Talad built for himself.
This means that freedom of the priests and population to create and make up gods and stories for them is severely reduced, making anything like the history page highly unlikely to be devised and even less possible to spread to more than a few crazy individuals. By no means can such a thing become common knowledge, even less be generally accepted, given the obvious lack of support by the priests.
Originally posted by amogorkon
The black Flame is out of the equation because it appeared outside Yliakum and only after Laanx and his followers (literally ) left that place, so it can\'t be known in Yliakum.
That`s only one point I have forgotten to mention. Why is the Black Flame mentioned in the char creation if it (after the official history) it is not known to the normal ylian? It is mereley a sidenote, now. I guess that this has to be clearified in the coming books.
Indeed I have wondered about that as well, but I have reached the conclusion that it is either because eventually it\'ll be possible to be born outside Yliakum, like in Pradesha (with limitations: only Xacha, and if BF is selected, you will have no chance of getting put into Yliakum on creation), or because the char creation is mostly temporary filler (it does look like that because nothing in it has any reference to the website, neither does the website give any hint at anything in the CC. They\'re disjoint and independant. Worse, none needs the other.).
Originally posted by amogorkon
Another point I forgot:
Laanx and Talad are bound to Vodul. Are divine pacts brakeable? Who would punish if it was broken? And if it is not been broken it is highly unlikely that Vodul is not intervening at all. At least both, Laanx and Talad has to fulfill their side of the pact by serving.. how is this expressed?
I think they can be broken, and it is likely that it was broken. Laanx and Talad wanted to be shown how to make people. Laanx spied on Vod?l and achieved that goal, so subsequently the pact would have no benefit to her anymore. Also, assuming that Vod?l is just as similar to humans as Laanx and Talad, his use of Laanx as lover wouldn\'t be platonic, and thus it\'d be unlikely that he\'d be interested in what remains of Laanx.
Originally posted by amogorkon
An all-powerful and all-knowing god could only exist on it\'s own, as more than one would not make any sort of sense and wouldn\'t be discernible in any way, which would mean they\'d appear as one anyway.
That`s not true. An omniscient being could exist indeed on its own. And foreseeing the future doesnt bring the power to change it.
I was trying to say that a being that is both omnipotent and omniscient could only exist once, since, were they more, they would either be doing the same things, share the job, or stall each other.
Whether knowing the future brings power to change it depends on how well you know it. If you know it very well, and also retain knowledge of what the future would have been before you changed things, then you can obviously modify the present to yield the desired future.
Example: had Vodĺ known the future, he would have known that Laanx was spying on him and that she would eventually succeed in mimicking him. He would then also ave known when and how Laanx was spying and could perfectly easily prevented her from ever succeeding.
Vod?ls intentions aren\'t clear, but he seems very selfish, so he wouldn\'t likely give up his hold on Laanx and Talad so easily.
Granted, there are some caveats like \"he wanted them to have that fate and be able to blame it solely on them so he tricked them.\". Wouldn\'t make him better, though, but it would still show that knowing the future does allow changing it.
Originally posted by amogorkon
In fact this is one way to explain the evil in the theodicy. Maybe I should have explained a bit about the theodicy.
The theodicy is the question why there is evil in the world. There are several possibilities to answer:
Either god is not all-good, means he brings evil (catastrophes, criminalism and everything else which \"punishes\" people who didnt \"deserve\" it from our point of view). Another possibity is to restrict the gods power by other beings with the same level of power. This is the case in many religions. Two or more concurrenting powers struggle in an neverending fight.
Another possibility is that god is omnipotent but not all-knowing. He created everything and lost control over the ongoings in detail. But still he has those powers.
Depends on how \"being omnipotent\" is defined. If you define it as \"in theory being able to do anything\", then yes. If you define it as \"be able make your wishes come true\", then not.
Originally posted by amogorkon
It would have been more interesting to have an omnipotent god against an omniscient one ;-)
In fact I see the analogies to the greek and roman theology, too. But before I assume things which will be revised after having rped it already I take the official history by word.
This is assuming that they\'re like the mainstream RL gods just as much as assuming it\'s like the roman gods.
Originally posted by amogorkon
Likely they already have their followers elsewhere and don\'t bother. Maybe they even have some sort of territorial agreement.
One could think that. But if they still exist it wouldnt be far for Laanx to make an intrigue against Talad involving the other gods.
To me it looks like the other gods are a lot more powerful and whatnot than Laanx and Talad so that none of them could actually be bothered to take sides in their petty disputes except thinking \"Grow up, kids!\". :)
Originally posted by amogorkon
Given that this description may still not refer to physical existance, it is possibel that they existed and lived anywhere.
How do you explain the \"thick red cloak\" then? It doesnt seem to me much metaphorical in this context.
Obviously gods interact with each other in something that is like a physical representation. Therefore, the cloak doesn\'t need to be metaphorical. It, however, isn\'t physical in the common sense, either (though it could be since Laanx did travel the stone labyrinths, which means he didn\'t necessarily use any divine power, especially since the Xacha were able to follow).
Originally posted by amogorkon
Given that they existed before they were worshipped, lack of worshipping wouldn\'t likely make them cease to exist, though.
*snicker* As long as they don`t commit suicide... *imagines Laanx whining \"nobody worships me...\"*
ROFL! :))
Originally posted by amogorkon
Given that a god can come into existance at any point in time, one can easily be \"young\" compared to other gods. The roman and other religions provide more similarity.
In those religions gods doesn`t \"come into existance\". They get created and born like other beings. And in fact in each of those religions there is one god who \"came into existance\" at first and which is the \"unmoved mover\". Who is it in PS? I doubt it is Vogul because he already seems pretty omniscient to me.
I also don\'t think that that would be Vod?l, as he doesn\'t strike me as powerful nor wise enough.
As for coming into existance: being born is one option, transcending, as has been said, another, and if one god can come into existance, there is no real reason why others couldn\'t, though I, too, don\'t know of one example for that in RL mythology, if we don\'t count the incorporation of foreign gods into other religions.
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Well I personally know that Talad is real, I saw Him in the form of a blue kran in the death realm!
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Through the portals that is. Or perhaps they are other attempts of Talad before finally succeeding with the Krans.
Hm..
\"They were unaware of a huge maze of tunnels present in the crust of the world, later called the Stone Labyrinths, where other creatures were already lurking in the dark.\"
Before the portals were established and Vodul was praisen to lure more races to Yliakum.
There should be a creation story though I think. Every religion has one.
Thats what I`m waiting for :)
I asume if Talad and Laanx aren\'t omnipotent neither are the others.
Well there are other \"more powerful\" gods.. why shouldn`t there be one that has reached the highest level of power?
Depends on how \"being omnipotent\" is defined. If you define it as \"in theory being able to do anything\", then yes. If you define it as \"be able make your wishes come true\", then not.
Even in the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence) there are several different definitions. Omnipotence in its basic meaning is \"power with no limits or inexhaustible\". No limits mean also not bound to physical or metaphysical rules.
The greek gods weren`t omnipotent. And as Steuben already said there is the realm of the mortals and the realm of gods. IMHO it would be much easier to have one unified realm.
In the greek philosophy there was the unmoved mover, which didn`t has to be a god but could also has been a natural force.
In PS it is not clear (yet) what created the world. If it was a natural event (nothing \"divine\" and therefore \"mindless\" ) which created the world and all the magical things, it would mean that also the gods are limited to the means they were given. They wouldnt be omnipotent.
I imagine a \"unified\" world as following:
A natural event created the universe... filled it with matter and energy. Both is bound to the physical rules. But there is also a \"fractal\" energy. Fractal means that it is not limited to space dimensions, that there can be unlimited energy in one spot and it can be everywhere at the same time. This energy surrounds matter and fills space like a web. But the weirdest attribute is that it (because of its fractal nature) is allured by special patterns in matter and energy. The big crystal forms such a pattern which forces this energy to flow steadily to the crystal (like a hole in the beach from which you pump water away but it will flow back). Another pattern are special thoughts (forming neural patterns) and movements (for example with the hands). It depends on the pattern matter and energy forms what effect this energy has on physical nature.
Gods could be \"lifeforms\" formed by this energy. They could come to existence as \"natural events\", by chance or by transcending of physical lifeforms, means transforming the material body to energy.
This also could explain the different powers of over this energy at all. The less an object or lifeform contains of those patterns the less energy it contains... and of course there is the knowledge about how to manipulate the energy. This could bring a mortal into the position to get the knowledge (even by chance) how to destroy gods. IF this knowledge is usable without being a god oneself (to have enough mana/energy) is another question.
Lets go to the limits of this model.
Fractal energy (magic) as I imagine it can be, as I said, at each point in the universe at the same time. With enough knowledge about how to manipulate this energy it could be possible to get to know everything, to become omniscient. The problem is now a sort of timetravel.
State A: Everything develops normally, the omniscient being (G like god) just observes, doesn`t interact. G will know all future and past.
State B: G foresees that an enemy E plans to destroy G and G wants to prevent that. G calculates everything beforehand and wants to realise his plan. Now G has to foresee what happens when he changes something and again has to foresee what he will foresee.
*tries to imagine to be omniscient but fails horribly*
OK.. The problem here is G itself. The question is: Knows G everything _except_ itself or everything_ including_ itself?
If he knows everything except itself he can`t foresee what he will foresee thus he won`t be able to foresee the (\"far\" ) future if he manipulates the near future.
If he knows everything including itself he will be able to absolutely control the future.
State C: G has company. Another being B got the ability to know everything. What will happen if they try to change something contrary (G wants to kill B and wants to prevent B to kill G at the same time). Well, I think it is easy to answer: they will neutralize themselves so noone gets killed => about the same as state A.
erm.. how did I get there? Ah. I tried to put the two realms together and relatively simple to explain in this model about omniscience and omnipotence..
If I read the story correctly I guess they were traveling the universe.
How? If they where physical as it is described it is unlikely that they just flew around. If I stick with my just described system they could have a physical form besides their energetical form but only if they wish to. And I doubt that this physical form is more \"comfortable\" than the energetical one for a being which can choose...
If they have to stick with the physical form they are unlikely to just fligh about in the cold universe..
old is relative ofcourse. old for a human would be nothing to a god. Aparently the gods are born and talad and laanx are born after many other gods.
Either they are transcended \"human\" lifeforms or they got created by chance.. or by other gods.
=> She is a god, why can`t she heal herself or get healed by a more powerful god?
god, but not omnipetent. For example Talad and Laanx couldn\'t make creatures themselves they needed the power of the crystal to do so. Why a more powerfull god didn\'t help? They had nothing to offer perhaps or perhaps noone knew how to heal a god as this had never happened before.
Well here is a problem. Either those gods _do_ have to stick with \"real\" bodies like in those films \"Xena\", \"Herkules\" or whatever.. which would again question the travelling in the universe (don`t forget that the ancient greeks didnt think about other stars and possible races!) or they only _can_ get a body but most of the time they are in \"ethereal\" form (which would fit IMO much better to the story). But then.. how could \"[...] a tempest of chaos burst forth from the god\'s hands and hit Laanx on her face, penetrating deeply into her body, and she became forever disfigured\"?
In the \"energetic version\" this only could be metaphorical. It could have damaged her self, her divine patterns whatever.. but not directly \"misfigure\" her body, at least not visible for mortals.. but eventually for gods. But this would also make more sense since a body is easier to heal than the divine essence.
Well.. one could think about \"love\" in a more abstract way between two energetic lifeforms.. which then could explain the pact to Vodul.
I think they can be broken, and it is likely that it was broken. Laanx and Talad wanted to be shown how to make people. Laanx spied on Vod?l and achieved that goal, so subsequently the pact would have no benefit to her anymore. Also, assuming that Vod?l is just as similar to humans as Laanx and Talad, his use of Laanx as lover wouldn\'t be platonic, and thus it\'d be unlikely that he\'d be interested in what remains of Laanx.
Greek gods are highly jealous and vengeful. Why should Vogul just let them get away with this after having stolen his knowledge, misused and hurt another god and after that not given his prize? If even mortals like us (and mortals in Yliakum too) do have rules to restrict abuse of power, why shouldnt gods have rules and means to enforce those rules?
his use of Laanx as lover wouldn\'t be platonic, and thus it\'d be unlikely that he\'d be interested in what remains of Laanx.
Not in Laanx.. but what about Talad?
And why the ... does Vodul lure those races to Yliakum even if the pact was broken?
Obviously gods interact with each other in something that is like a physical representation. Therefore, the cloak doesn\'t need to be metaphorical. It, however, isn\'t physical in the common sense, either (though it could be since Laanx did travel the stone labyrinths, which means he didn\'t necessarily use any divine power, especially since the Xacha were able to follow).
Well, considering my model it would be possible to hide the energetical presence behind a material cloak created by the god himself. But then this cloak must be more than a \"normal\" cloak...
Well.. now goodnight... enough headache :))
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You asume to much Rilar ;)
If they are \"greek styled gods\" it doesn\'t mean they have to act like greek gods. \"greek styled\" reflects in this case only on their powers and the fact they have feelings not their behavior as ofcourse that can still be different. ;)
As for their physical form and traveling through space. Who knows how uncomfortable it is for them to travel? We don\'t know what powers they used to travel. They could have travelded as energy beings but as far as we know they simply blinked their eyes to go to the next planet.
Why did they travel? Well as the other gods are more powerfull perhaps they weren\'t allowed to settle in a place already being influenced by other gods as some apparently have also created races and sure others have their own projects they don\'t want the \"kids\" to spoil.
Why other gods are probably not omnipetant. All powerfull is hard to be. Ofcourse there will be one that is probably the most powerfull but that doesn\'t mean omnipetant. I don\'t see it as very likely one can become omnipetant with the obvious flaws these \"greek styled\" gods have ;)
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Originally posted by amogorkon
Through the portals that is. Or perhaps they are other attempts of Talad before finally succeeding with the Krans.
Hm..
\"They were unaware of a huge maze of tunnels present in the crust of the world, later called the Stone Labyrinths, where other creatures were already lurking in the dark.\"
Before the portals were established and Vodul was praisen to lure more races to Yliakum.
It is also unlikely, given the history, that either Laanx or Talad practised before, as that would have highly likely changed the outcome.
Originally posted by amogorkon
There should be a creation story though I think. Every religion has one.
Thats what I`m waiting for :)
I asume if Talad and Laanx aren\'t omnipotent neither are the others.
Well there are other \"more powerful\" gods.. why shouldn`t there be one that has reached the highest level of power?
It is possible, but it is more likely that that didn\'t happen.
Originally posted by amogorkon
I imagine a \"unified\" world as following:
(...)
Fractal energy (magic) as I imagine it can be, as I said, at each point in the universe at the same time.
That\'s about the way I see the PS world as well.
Originally posted by amogorkon
State B: G foresees that an enemy E plans to destroy G and G wants to prevent that. G calculates everything beforehand and wants to realise his plan. Now G has to foresee what happens when he changes something and again has to foresee what he will foresee.
If one is omniscient, then it seems logical that one is able to
Originally posted by amogorkon
*tries to imagine to be omniscient but fails horribly*
OK.. The problem here is G itself. The question is: Knows G everything _except_ itself or everything_ including_ itself?
If he knows everything except itself he can`t foresee what he will foresee thus he won`t be able to foresee the (\"far\" ) future if he manipulates the near future.
If he knows everything including itself he will be able to absolutely control the future.
State C: G has company. Another being B got the ability to know everything. What will happen if they try to change something contrary (G wants to kill B and wants to prevent B to kill G at the same time). Well, I think it is easy to answer: they will neutralize themselves so noone gets killed => about the same as state A.
erm.. how did I get there? Ah. I tried to put the two realms together and relatively simple to explain in this model about omniscience and omnipotence..
If I read the story correctly I guess they were traveling the universe.
How? If they where physical as it is described it is unlikely that they just flew around. If I stick with my just described system they could have a physical form besides their energetical form but only if they wish to. And I doubt that this physical form is more \"comfortable\" than the energetical one for a being which can choose...
If they have to stick with the physical form they are unlikely to just fligh about in the cold universe..
What if it\'s the other way around: they can become fully energetic so they can travel anywhere, but that isn\'t easy? That way they would likely stick to their more physical form unless travelling.
Originally posted by amogorkon
or they only _can_ get a body but most of the time they are in \"ethereal\" form (which would fit IMO much better to the story). But then.. how could \"[...] a tempest of chaos burst forth from the god\'s hands and hit Laanx on her face, penetrating deeply into her body, and she became forever disfigured\"?
In the \"energetic version\" this only could be metaphorical. It could have damaged her self, her divine patterns whatever.. but not directly \"misfigure\" her body, at least not visible for mortals.. but eventually for gods. But this would also make more sense since a body is easier to heal than the divine essence.
I think that the essence of a god directly and automatically shapes the physical features. By that definition, an effect to either physical or ethereal form would be the same thing. This would also work with the story, because Talad didn\'t hit Laanx in the face with an anvil, but with a high energy beam. :)
Originally posted by amogorkon
Greek gods are highly jealous and vengeful. Why should Vogul just let them get away with this after having stolen his knowledge, misused and hurt another god and after that not given his prize?
He was given his prize, at least partially. As I said, it is likely that Laanx and Talad served him for some eons before that happened. Additionally, the description of the pact doesn\'t list any details. It could be that the bond wasn\'t eternal but only to last until Vod?l had done his part. Given that the other races arrived comparatively shortly after the incident, I came to assume that Vod?l started events that he knew would eventually lead to races coming to Yliakum, which included the earthquake, the nomadic knights and the creation of the two portals. He would have known that the deal was about to close anyway and could just have thought \"Oh, well, let the morons duke it out by themselves\".
Even if the bond was supposed to be eternal, he might, at least temporarily, have refrained from enforcing it, seeing that there isn\'t a lot of benefit to be gained from it right now. Maybe he also grew tired of them anyway.
Originally posted by amogorkon
And why the ... does Vodul lure those races to Yliakum even if the pact was broken?
Because everything had already been set in morion and only needed time to develop itself. Of course he could have stopped it, but maybe he already forgot about it or didn\'t care, etc..
Originally posted by amogorkon
Well, considering my model it would be possible to hide the energetical presence behind a material cloak created by the god himself. But then this cloak must be more than a \"normal\" cloak...
Yes, I am even inclined to believe that the cloak and the mask have become part of Laanx\'s essence, and that gave them their physical manifestation.
It is furthermore possible that this change only affects part of the essence, a part that Laanx created herself, as it is the exact same as the gender.
From the story section
Laanx spoke, showing completely his true essence. - I\'m Laanx - she said - and I\'m your god.-
That being would have seen at, into and behind the cloak and mask, at the true and, more importantly, complete Laanx (i.e., including the parts that she is normally hiding). Before it was smitten, that is. :)
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The whole mythology seems fundamentally flawed, and in my opinion, needs a good makeover.
I quite like the idea of have two religions, one for laanx and then for Talad.
But then, I am wondering why we don\'t have more gods? Why only two? What about developing more abilities for priest, devotes etc?
With only two gods, we could include maybe some sort of Servants, like Spirits, that form another pantheon, which would enable us to create a whole world of the divine. The Spirits would be known to all, but every of the two religions would argue who it is that reign them all :)
i am studying religions in my freetime, and I would love such a concept.
Cu,
Feredir
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Well we have religions here that are unlike anything we have had here on earth in that the gods existance can not be denied.
The gods have made actions that effected the world and the priest of one religion can hardly say the other god doesn\'t exist. I mean they can but who would believe them?
I think in a case like this most people would have one main god they prefer but pray to the other god when the thing they are prayig for seems to be more that gods area.
But even with only two gods there are still being between us and the gods that may be incorperated in the religon. Things like saints and such might be a good idea as angelic subordinates don\'t seem to fit with gods so close to their people already.