PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Silverblade on November 27, 2002, 04:36:44 am
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Hey, you know what would be quite cool...
This probably isnt the most original idea. In fact i woud even go so far as to say it\'s not even the second most original idea.
But anyway, If you could get loans from banks, and you have to pay them back with interest. And if you dont pay up, you get a few warnings, then some of your items may get reposessed.
For example, say I was an aspiring young money maker, I could go and get a loan from the bank. I could borrow enough money to purchase myself a Megara or Pteresaur, and make the money back by giving people rides and taking them to places they want to go (for a fee, of course). I would pay back the loan with the money I make, then when I break even, it\'s all profit from there.
The downside to this is that it may make valuble items, such as Pteresaurs or Megaras too easily accesable.
And something I just thought of, being a free game, people may start up a new character, borrow heaps of money, give it to another character (also owned by them) then leave the other character and his debt\'s to go to hell.
The solution to this may be that to get a loan, you need credibility. For example, you need to have played the game for a certain amount of time, or you need to be a certain level ( I know there are no levels, but something along that line... maybe a certain amount of experience... however that aspect of the game works.)
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Originally posted by Silverblade
The solution to this may be that to get a loan, you need credibility.
I was JUST about to post that until I read the end of your post, good thing I read through
Anyways, great idea, and although it might not be THAT original I certainly haven\'t seen it in a game yet ( that I have played at least )
Maybe for the credibility you need a combination of what you said and having been around for like a month or something and cannot borrow A LOT of money more than once
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cool idea.
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Here\'s an Idea, the longer you are around, the more money you can borrow. Or the more skilled you are.
Example,
If you\'ve played 2 hours, you can borrow 50 tria
4 hours = 100 tria
6 hours = 200 tria
8 hours = 400 tria
10 hours = 800 tria
something along those lines.
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Not a bad thought Silverblade, but the problem of free money is still there. If someone had like two or three computers, they could create three new charecters, leave them on for half the day, come back, get some decent loans, and transfer the cash off. Mule-ing is an issue in everygame, and i really am looking forward to seeing how it is resolved here. A solution, at least to the loan problem is, if you take out a loan, and you don\'t pay it, and have nothing to be reposessed, you can have that charecter banned or something. And then, if a certain ip has two or more of these banned charecters, their ip should just be banned from the game, so they can\'t play period. This is complicated, and there is still the room for a person to do it once, but it should help to cut that down a bit.
Hmm... another possibility, would be that just as in real life, you have to have collatoral(sp?). You can\'t take out a loan for more money than all your possessions are worth, so that way, if you don\'t pay up, they know they can come after you, and you\'ll be able to pay it. Unfortunately, even with that system loans could be exploited, so i don\'t see them ever acutally working in game, but i do really like the idea.
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Perhaps credibility could be based on time and on how reliable you are financially. If you return all your loans successfully then you will be able to borrow more money. Something must be thought of though, to weed out those who would borrow some money and then return it in the next 5 minutes.
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An idea has come to mind, about how to deal with this issue. Any kind of computer run loan system could be very easily exploitable. Because of this, maybe there could be a GM or someone in charge of loans. They look at each person on a case-by case basis, and make sure that everything is paid back. Unfortunately, there is still room for error with this system, and I doubt anyone would want to spend their time reading through a whole pile of requests.
An alternate solution, is to create facilitated loans between players. So if you need money, you can goto some other rich player, you both work out how much, and over what period of time, and interest, etc., and agree to it, basically putting your signatures on it. Then, if the person who borrowed the money doesn\'t pay back within the time agreed, the loaner can file a report or something against them, and have a GM investigate, and reposess or ban appropriately. I think this would take less GM time than the aforementioned proposition, and it creates possibilities for people to gain money as bankers, or loan-sharks. It would still require GM time, in the cases where someone tries to exploit the system, but at least the GM won\'t be instrumental in the creation of the loan, only the enforcing of it.
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The first idea about GM granting requests for loans on a case-by-case basis, although it sounds good, would not be feasible.
Although there may only be a couple of hundred people following the game right now, being a MMORPG, there will eventually be thousands and thousands of people playing. Individually granting loans will take up the time of many GM\'s that could be better spent elsewhere.
Loan\'s and deal\'s between player characters would be a very interesting aspect, and I think, should be explored further.
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I love the idea of PvP loans and borrowing, personally. I hope we can do those types of things.
- Venge
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Originally posted by Aduin
And then, if a certain ip has two or more of these banned charecters, their ip should just be banned from the game, so they can\'t play period. This is complicated, and there is still the room for a person to do it once, but it should help to cut that down a bit.
I have no trouble changing my ip; in fact it\'ll change on its own periodically. Doing it by ip would be silly. :P
Your idea of requiring collateral is much better. If in order for a player to borrow money they have to have made at least that much money, it would be silly to create a character just to give their money to another character, as it would probably be simpler to just make that amount of money with the primary character, particularly when the character is of relatively high level.
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Sure, you can change your ip, or it changes automatically, but the first and most of the time, second set of numbers don\'t change, Unless you change ISPs or use Proxies (very bad for games) then you can easily ban someone from a game by banning those first two sets of numbers if your ip was 68.256.45.245 and you can get it changed it would most likely change to something like 68.256.45.279 the first two sets would stay the same so they could just ban 68.256.* and most likely take care of you, Or they can call your ISP and get your personal info and call Mom and tell her what your doing and also notify your ISP of what you are doing. Works when you have script kiddies attacking your IRC network with DoS clones anyways. I don\'t know if evading bans is against any laws but if they complain to the ISP enough they will suspend your service.
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The idea of loaning money is also used in Daggerfall (the one before Morrowind). Ofcourse this is a singleplayer game so you don\'t have to worry about the kind of problems mentioned here.
In Daggerfall you could get a note of credit (i think it was called that), which you could use to buy items.
But loaning money is a good idea, and implementing this idea in an mmorpg can be a good idea if done right.
Hey, maybe if you\'re really rich you could start your own bank!
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if the karma system is implemented, we could use it as \'reliability\', as you should have played a certain amount of time in the \"good path\".You should access loans starting a certain \'level\' of positive karma. And loans shouldn\'t be money but, as Keldorn said above, a credit note that only the character named on it could use(like a credit card) and the cost of the things payed with it would be deduct directly in bank\'s money. And players with enough money should be able to build banks.
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if you could make the money to pay back the loan in the first place then why make a loan??
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I prefer the pvp approach.
a simple and effective way to determine credibility is to loan some one a modest some of money.
My previous experience with guilds was they are very effective in loaning/ giving items and money, and very effective in dealing with any who abuse the prviliages of a guild bank.. etc.
jmo
xam
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Ok, a few things to mention:
a) Link, nice Mag in your picture. =)
b) The idea of a credit note, while it does eliminate some problems, it also causes others. If someone wanted to but an item from another player, a credit note wouldn\'t be useful, unless that chaecter was then able to trade the credit note in for gold. Which completely kills the whole reason for doing the credit note, which is so that others don\'t end up with the money.
c) Tornado, That\'s the way loans work in real life. You take out some money, use it to start a business, or something, then pay the money back over time, generaly with interest added on. You take the loan to give yourself the boost you need to get going, and then once you\'re on your way you can pay it back.
d) The karma idea isn\'t a bad one. The only issue(this was raised in the thieves post as well,) is how do we define/determine karma? In UO it was based solely on what you killed, but clearly there are other things that you can do to gain karma besides killing things. Let\'s say someone wants to start an alchemist shop. If they were an alchemist, they probably wouldn\'t be out killing things very often. Then they\'d probably have to take a loan out to start a shop up, but how could they get that loan without killing things first for karma? A karma system will be valuable, but it will be tough to implement well.
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I think we should leave the deciding of the karma system to all those other threads invovling karma.
Perhaps while you are borrowing your karma gradually deteriorates as you take longer and longer to return it. Maybe when you lose a pre-specified amount of karma, the gaurds come to reclaim the money, and if you can\'t pay you will either end up in jail or you will die.
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My previous experience with guilds was they are very effective in loaning/ giving items and money, and very effective in dealing with any who abuse the prviliages of a guild bank.. etc.
but in a game where PK is only able in arena with the 2 players\' accord, how do you deal with abusers?
About the credit note, only the player you loaned money should have it; when he pays something with it, it\'s discounted from his note, money is given to the seller, that would come directly from the bank\'s money. Ans the player should pay back with interests later.
Being late in loan payback should get down your \'karma\' as Aruneko said.
Karma will be implemented but in the form of alignement. Thus i don\'t know how it will work, but i think it\'ll be the same type of idea.
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So you\'re saying that the credit note is basically a credit card.
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like i said first......
a credit note that only the character named on it could use(like a credit card)
......yes
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well,
1. i seldom if ever loan/give, etc to beggers
2. i will not loan unless i condsider it
a gift. ( a principle in real life as well.)
at first a small amount and if not repaid, then
no more.
3. in guilds and with guild banks dealing with abuse
is easy. No repayment, no guild membership.
peace
xam
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I\'m still iffy on the idea, but I like the personal favorite card the best here.
Thanks,
- Venge
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My argument still stands though, that a credit note is effectively useless. You proposed the idea to keep people from abusing the loan system, yet anyone that takes out a loan in this case won\'t be able to buy something from another player, killing(at least in part) trade between players. If you were to allow people to trade the credit note to other players, and they get the money off of it, it doesn\'t solve the issue of exloit. The real good way to avoid this abuse, is the idea to implement some kind of time restriction, so your charecter has to have been arround for 2-3 or more weeks before you can take out a loan. This is really, the only way to keep people from making a mule charecter, taking out a loan, giving the cash to their main charecter, and then forgetting about the mule charecter. I think it is actually impossible to avoid exploit without the previously mentioned possibility of banning. It\'s extreme, but it\'ll work.
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I would think that the one bank should exist as a mint and currency exchange, and not as a loan franchise, for several reasons:
1) a karma, time based, or \"level\" based credit rating would be difficult to implement and possible to circumvent.
2) Having a PC being the moneylender adds more of an RP element to the game, for both the loaner, and the loanee.
3) if both parties were to use a digital contract that would be \"signed\" by both their characters, as well as similar reciepts, any disputes would be fairly easy to resolve, minimizing the time Immortals would be occupied settling finacial disputes.
4) such a system could also be implemented for buying an item fram a PC in payments.
5) I can make more of a profit if I can lend money and be assured of it\'s repayment.
Jessyn
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Um... If I were to change my MAC address, there\'s no way you could tell that I\'m still the same person...
Banning, in my case, 169.233.*.* would cut all of the dorms at UCSC off the game. I certainly don\'t want to be denied access because some idiot at my school tried to mule....
Originally posted by Link
Sure, you can change your ip, or it changes automatically, but the first and most of the time, second set of numbers don\'t change, Unless you change ISPs or use Proxies (very bad for games) then you can easily ban someone from a game by banning those first two sets of numbers if your ip was 68.256.45.245 and you can get it changed it would most likely change to something like 68.256.45.279 the first two sets would stay the same so they could just ban 68.256.* and most likely take care of you, Or they can call your ISP and get your personal info and call Mom and tell her what your doing and also notify your ISP of what you are doing. Works when you have script kiddies attacking your IRC network with DoS clones anyways. I don\'t know if evading bans is against any laws but if they complain to the ISP enough they will suspend your service.
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Originally posted by Aduin
The real good way to avoid this abuse, is the idea to implement some kind of time restriction, so your charecter has to have been arround for 2-3 or more weeks before you can take out a loan.
I agree, to a point. If the only criteria is time, then it would be possible to create a character on a second computer and just have it sit around for that amount of time. The only solutions are either having the player invest work in bettering the character before they can get a loan by setting a minimum level, or doing it on a player-player basis. Both of these have their drawbacks, but neither is really easily circumventable.
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what ARE the drawbacks of PvP lending?
Jessyn
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Originally posted by Jessyn
what ARE the drawbacks of PvP lending?
Jessyn
Well, to begin with, there can\'t be much of it until the game has been around a little while...
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of course, you\'d get that too, with the system you\'re proposing, verifying a char by having them wait 2-3 weeks. after 2-3 weeks, i plan to be rich anyways, through grunt work, so...
Let the first few make their way up the financial ladder the hard way, because once they do, they will be rewarded with a temporary monopoly on money lending, besides, i\'d rather borrow money from another player than a computer, and i think most of you would agree with me on that.
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Maybe set limits on how much money you can borrow based on your level, as opposed to just all or nothing? Like starting out you could borrow enough for a little bit better sword or something, which may prove useful to you, but would be pretty much worthless to anyone who has been around a while. Only after the player has invested enough effort in the character could they borrow sizeable sums of money, and perhaps only if they have a good credit rating?
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but how would you do that, as there are no level\'s in PS? The only major problems i have with bank loans are that they would take away from PvP loans, and they would be difficult to secure. You can take advantage of a computer time and time again, but you can only fool a human so many times before they get cautious(or run out of money)
Jessyn
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Originally posted by Jessyn
but you can only fool a human so many times before they get cautious(or run out of money)
exactly
peace
xam
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Even with the pvp lending, someone could take a loan out on a fake charecter. The only time you\'d lend someone money, would be if you knew and trusted them already, in which case, why have a lending system? There really is no way to avoid exploitation. It\'s a great idea, and would be very nice to see in game, but only if they could figure out how to cut out the exploits.
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Originally posted by David_HD
Um... If I were to change my MAC address, there\'s no way you could tell that I\'m still the same person...
Banning, in my case, 169.233.*.* would cut all of the dorms at UCSC off the game. I certainly don\'t want to be denied access because some idiot at my school tried to mule....
Banning entire ISPs, even on occasions entire countries, happens all the times in games, if you have people from a ISP or Country that alot are doing bad things, then you have no other choice.
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Surely that\'s not the solution though. It would be ridiculous to ban a hundred people just because 10 people that share their internet service cannot behave.
I am sure they wouldnt do that.
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And something I just thought of, being a free game, people may start up a new character, borrow heaps of money, give it to another character (also owned by them) then leave the other character and his debt\'s to go to hell.
The solution to this may be that to get a loan, you need credibility. For example, you need to have played the game for a certain amount of time, or you need to be a certain level ( I know there are no levels, but something along that line... maybe a certain amount of experience... however that aspect of the game works.)
Solution? One IP address? ONE CHARACTER! Free online game = Too expensive to run for arse-openings to take advantage of the system.
your account should be your character -- you can delete him and start over as a different kind, but you cant make money mules like that.