PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Constin on November 21, 2005, 06:59:31 am
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I was wondering if there is going to be a wipe again in the near future. Like within the next year?
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the magic 8-ball says:
all signs point to... please insert appropriate change and try again.
even though the motd has stopped talking about he wipe, i\'m suspecting there will be a few more yet. i\'d lay even money on one wipe within the next year.
but, don\'t let the fear of a wipe stop you from playing. enjoy the game. and enjoy it even more knowing that the world after the wipe will be better then this one.
... *pauses*
*heads off to consider a forum religion*
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It make me sick to think all of what i have accomplished will be lost, and have to start from the begining. Wish there was a way avoid a wipe.
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So all you accomplished was only stats? I don\'t think anyone will mourn after you losing that..
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Originally posted by Constin
It make me sick to think all of what i have accomplished will be lost, and have to start from the begining. Wish there was a way avoid a wipe.
It makes me sick (not really, it\'s just a computer game) that people can\'t understand the meanings of \"pre-alpha tech demo\" and \"tester.\"
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Why not to wipe:
New features are best tested by players who have the resources to take advantage of them.
Why to wipe:
To test solutions to ballance issues.
In my opinion, anyway. They can do whatever they feel like with no promises to anyone. It\'s not like they\'re getting paid.
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Originally posted by Constin
I was wondering if there is going to be a wipe again in the near future. Like within the next year?
Within the next 365? Most definately. There were two full wipes in the last 12 months, there will likely be another 2 next year.
In the next 6weeks? Doubtful.
Constin, there is a simple way to avoid the wipe: Don\'t care about stats. Material possessions are fleeting afterall.
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Wipes are not done for the hell of it. If there is any way we can continue with development without wiping, we will. Future wipes are inevitable, however, especially when we begin balancing the game.
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By zanzibar
In my opinion, anyway. They can do whatever they feel like with no promises to anyone. It\'s not like they\'re getting paid.
I agree they can do what they like as its their project, but they do it for the good of the game, and at times to incorporate player suggestions.
As for getting paid: they do in kindness and thanks for a game that has taken them a lot of their free time to develop for us to enjoy. I for one thank them for all their hard efforts and at times I am sure personal sacrifices to ensure it is running as best as possible.
I for one look forward to the challenge after every wipe.
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I would guess that there will be at least one more wipe before version 1.0 :P
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Originally posted by r.guppy
By zanzibar
In my opinion, anyway. They can do whatever they feel like with no promises to anyone. It\'s not like they\'re getting paid.
I agree they can do what they like as its their project, but they do it for the good of the game, and at times to incorporate player suggestions.
As for getting paid: they do in kindness and thanks for a game that has taken them a lot of their free time to develop for us to enjoy. I for one thank them for all their hard efforts and at times I am sure personal sacrifices to ensure it is running as best as possible.
I for one look forward to the challenge after every wipe.
:D I agree with both Zanzibar and Janner. The wipe will come one day and were all just going to have to suck it up. Till then enjoy the game and after then enjoy the game, that is what it is there for! ;)
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Originally posted by Constin
It make me sick to think all of what i have accomplished will be lost, and have to start from the begining. Wish there was a way avoid a wipe.
You can also get into the role play of planeshift
Then even when there is a wipe you still are well know and have something to look forward too.
I know I would like to get a big group of friends together after the wipe and go hunting :D
Dont think of the wipe as really bad and how much you will lose but think of how much fun we will all have after ;) and the greatness of comming back
Dylia bows to Constin
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I\'m a little hazy about this wipe, because I get mixed messages from people about it. Will it wipe the entire character, everything and every skill the character has, high level weapons and all skills, or what? I\'m a little concerned about my mug. /me holds the mug close to his chest and makes a sad face.
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That is entirely dependant on what gets changed/balanced/tweaked in the future. Not all changes will require full character wipes, but there may be \'mini\' wipes such as item or skill wipes.
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All I say is, thank you for them. Gets rid of all the exploits. Im not an RPer or a power leveler. I simply like to mess with everything the game has to offer. I especially like to take in the awsome design work. But it does bother me that people are out there picking up crazy good random weapons and getting their sklills so some insane level in about a week.
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Originally posted by Gentar
All I say is, thank you for them. Gets rid of all the exploits. Im not an RPer or a power leveler. I simply like to mess with everything the game has to offer. I especially like to take in the awsome design work. But it does bother me that people are out there picking up crazy good random weapons and getting their sklills so some insane level in about a week.
Huh? What exploits are you talking about?
You\'ve just described an effect - you feel people are progressing too quickly. So what do you believe are the causes of it?
A sure one is the widespread availability of fire, frosty, and dark weapons. It seems that the devs have already made such weapons much rarer to loot, but the ones that are looted never leave the player base.
Once weapons begin to require repair after a period of use, I think that particular problem will disapear. People will be much less willing to just give weapons away; their value will increase.
But that isn\'t an exploit. Not in the slightest. That\'s a matter of ballance within the very mechanics of the game itself.
So what exploits are you refering to?
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Originally posted by Gentar
All I say is, thank you for them. Gets rid of all the exploits. Im not an RPer or a power leveler. I simply like to mess with everything the game has to offer. I especially like to take in the awsome design work. But it does bother me that people are out there picking up crazy good random weapons and getting their sklills so some insane level in about a week.
My dear Gentar:
I promise you, that maxing even a single skill takes over a hundred hours.
What has happened is not that people are at insane levels, but rather that the distance between the extremes of mundane weapon (slash 1.0) and the most powerful (slash 540 or more), has been expanded.
Remember that most of the unfamiliar names you see doing big damage, are Alts or have the weapons on loan. There are far fewer of them than it seems there are.
But if you think the new weapons have changed the world, you have seen nothing yet.
Wait until the only way to get a healing potion, is to buy one from a player who makes them.
Now, that will be insane.
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Originally posted by Verrliit
Originally posted by Gentar
All I say is, thank you for them. Gets rid of all the exploits. Im not an RPer or a power leveler. I simply like to mess with everything the game has to offer. I especially like to take in the awsome design work. But it does bother me that people are out there picking up crazy good random weapons and getting their sklills so some insane level in about a week.
My dear Gentar:
I promise you, that maxing even a single skill takes over a hundred hours.
What has happened is not that people are at insane levels, but rather that the distance between the extremes of mundane weapon (slash 1.0) and the most powerful (slash 540 or more), has been expanded.
Remember that most of the unfamiliar names you see doing big damage, are Alts or have the weapons on loan. There are far fewer of them than it seems there are.
But if you think the new weapons have changed the world, you have seen nothing yet.
Wait until the only way to get a healing potion, is to buy one from a player who makes them.
Now, that will be insane.
I\'m sorry, but -- well, no. I\'m not sorry.
Weapons with 400+ slash are bogus. They only occur as freak accidents, and you have to be spending an insane amount of time in the arena before the odds say you get one. I do NOT believe that\'s what the devs intend to be the norm, and therefore such weapons do NOT count as an intentional expansion within the game.
I think that Gentar has a point somewhere, and I would like to hear his reasoning, but I\'m pretty sure he isn\'t thinking about freak incidents and players who as much time camping rogues as individuals such as yourself. The way he said it, he\'s thinking of a more general and basic issue more fundamental to the planeshift mechanics.
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Originally posted by Xordan
I would guess that there will be at least one more wipe before version 1.0 :P
Good old British understatement ;)
Although I\'m not a dev, I can predict that there probably will be a dozen wipes or even more until version 1.0 is released.
Some might ask what wipes are good for: for testing new features, balancing the game (and it still needs a lot of balancing, especially magic vs. weapons), and (last but not least) to get rid of bugs and exploits.
Some people tend to overstress what they loose during a wipe: stats and the items in their inventory. But what do we get? More features, bugfixes, better game balance and much more.
I think this is more worthwile than stats and money. :)
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I do see the good/bad points of a wipe. I have never played a alpha/beta game and had to really worry about it. I do see a need to do a wipe when others have advanced to quickly or if any form a cheating was involved. If that would be the case I see no problem.
As for them being paid.... I would donate to a game like this if it would keep it free for others. Or even to speed up the prossess to fix bugs. (how I hate not being able to attack) But maybe Ill enjoy the game a bit more, sit back have a few mugs of my favorite brew. Talk with the community a bit. Ahh heck let the wipe commence. I would enjoy a new challenge. Well im off to the tavern who will join me?
(Bows)
Constin Sr.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Weapons with 400+ slash are bogus. They only occur as freak accidents
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I do NOT believe that\'s what the devs intend to be the norm, and therefore such weapons do NOT count as an intentional expansion within the game.
That\'s true, they were never intended. Whatever problems that haven\'t been fixed yet, will be fixed eventually.
Originally posted by zanzibar
Why not to wipe:
New features are best tested by players who have the resources to take advantage of them.
Why to wipe:
To test solutions to ballance issues.
Yep; hit the nail on the head. Sometimes wipes also have to be done because the new stuff that replaces the old creates incompatibilities. If there\'s a big change to the db schema, we can\'t worry about preserving old data; we just need to make the changes and move on. There\'s no need to preserve a \"score\" or anything. Some sort of fixed amount of money per 6 months of being with PS sounds good to me. (the preservation of MB crystals in spite of wiping everyone else annoys me...) The oldbies that have stuck with us can skip the stuff they\'ve done a million times already, and let the new guys go with it.
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Everyone has been speaking of skills and items. Does this mean that Guilds will never be wiped?
That would make the amount of money that it costs to start one into not so much of a barrier. Of course I would still need to find a few more friends to join.
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You were just begging for me to pounce on this, all teeth and claws and lashing tail, weren\'t you... :)
Originally posted by DaveG
That\'s true, they (400+ slash weapons) were never intended. Whatever problems that haven\'t been fixed yet, will be fixed eventually.
If they were not intended, then they were a happy accident. Never mind the loud complaints by the tiny few in the PS community, who are either jealous, or worshippers of dull and boring.
1. They are a wonderful grand prize in the Lottery of Looting.
2. Without such weapons, only large groups of mages will be able to do significant damage to the owners of enchanted armor and shields... and such owners will not even be able to damage each other.
3. Study of the existing enchantment system shows that such weapons are very much intended, although they would probably be named differently in a corrected system, than the ones that currently exist.
Originally posted by DaveG
There\'s no need to preserve a \"score\" or anything. Some sort of fixed amount of money per 6 months of being with PS sounds good to me. (the preservation of MB crystals in spite of wiping everyone else annoys me...)
LOL.
You are funny, DaveG. :)
You say there is no need, and then immediately propose a way to do it, and say that it is unfair to wipe CB players without migration. You may not want to admit it, but you see the need yourself.
If RP is the holy grail of PS, then PS is not really a game. It is a circus tent, a place to play, a stage upon which the players perform. The Devs only create the setting and the props. The players do the rest of the work.
There must be a reward for putting in time and effort, or you risk losing the heart and soul of PS.
It is the players who create the games and the fun. They tell the stories, teach Noobs how to RP, and entertain each other. Somehow they have managed the miracle of creating a fantasy world, in spite of the broken code, low-res graphics and lagging chat.
You are right that time is the factor that is crucial. But it is not six months, a week or a year, that should be the cut-off.
It is very clearly the number of hours logged, that should be rewarded. Once a player has played a character for 200-500 hours or so, they should be added to the migration database. To be fair to those who play multiple characters, this should be based upon the total time a player account has logged on the server. To automate that, should be trivial to code.
It is also obvious, that a CB player who has logged 500 or even 3000 hours this year, deserves greater reward than one who only played for 100 hours in MB, and did not return to the game at all until last week.
Originally posted by DaveG
The oldbies that have stuck with us can skip the stuff they\'ve done a million times already, and let the new guys go with it.
Well they certainly do deserve to have an easier time of it, at least.
And a permanent method to do that, is a basic function that will be needed as long as PS lives. There will continue to be wipes, migrations, and bugged characters that need to be deleted and rebuilt, because the code will continue to evolve. There is at least one elegant and simple way to do that, and I have thought of one which will also solve another problem simultaneously. (PM me for that.)
If there is a technical problem that requires a wipe, before the introduction of crafting, farming, potion-making, armor, shields, hammers or melee weapons, and a temporary fix is needed fast; I propose that the Rings of the Past be expanded, with enhancement automatically increasing for perhaps every 100 hours logged. This should also be trivial to code.
Yours Truly,
The Dark Lady
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Originally posted by Verrliit
It is very clearly the number of hours logged, that should be rewarded.
It is very clearly and easily exploitable, by logging in and then idling :) How do you propose guarding against this? Is it also a small coincidence that you are listed as one of the individuals with an impressively high amount of hours in-game? I would think that it be self-evident that such hours could be spent (by anyone) doing completely non-RP things. Rewards should be given for this why?
Oh, and:
If they were not intended, then they were a happy accident. Never mind the loud complaints by the tiny few in the PS community, who are either jealous, or worshippers of dull and boring.
Way to go, immediately stuffing those who disagree with you into dark little boxes of insignificance :)
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It is also obvious, that a CB player who has logged 500 or even 3000 hours this year, deserves greater reward than one who only played for 100 hours in MB, and did not return to the game at all until last week.
Would that not be elitism at it\'s worst? Personally, as a player I would expect no rewards for playing for over two years now. I only want for the game to keep going the way it has.
I\'ll say it once more, 400 slash weapons were a horrible mistake and are going to be removed. Weapon quality is never more important then skill, that is a rule.
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My view on rewords for players is don\'t wont it don\'t need it thanks my reword is playing game, to earn what one has is enough for me i start with nothing and i am happy to work my bleep off getting back to were i was before the wipe, alone the way helping others as best i can.
:))
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Originally posted by Verrliit
[ ENTIRE POST ]
Bleh, I can sum up this post in a few seconds. You don\'t want the 400+ slash weapons removed, because without those, you can\'t hit 1000+ damage. It makes things very unrealistic, and people always get 1-hit killed by them, which takes the fun out of dueling.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Originally posted by Verrliit
It is very clearly the number of hours logged, that should be rewarded.
It is very clearly and easily exploitable, by logging in and then idling :) How do you propose guarding against this?
Dropping a player from the server after long inactivity (no motion, no chat generated) is a pretty standard thing.
If a player goes to the trouble, just to add an hour to each login, they obviously care a lot about playing, want to continue for a very long time, and to keep something of their effort. That is a good thing, for PS.
Passion is the whole point, Karyuu.
It does not matter if someone exploits this.
Someone who does that for a hundred logins might get a bit extra? Who cares? Remember that this is only for the case of a wipe, not for short-term ongoing play.
Originally posted by Karyuu
Is it also a small coincidence that you are listed as one of the individuals with an impressively high amount of hours in-game?
It is no more a coincidence, than the fact that you have a high post count in the forums, Karyuu. We are both passionately involved and spend a great amount of our time and effort caring about PS.
While I do not believe that I am the best Role-Player that PS has ever seen, I am very passionate about it, and work a lot harder at it, than thousands of other players.
Originally posted by Karyuu
I would think that it be self-evident that such hours could be spent (by anyone) doing completely non-RP things. Rewards should be given for this why?
Non-RP things are part of the game. Rewards should be given for playing, for the same reason that you deserve respect in the forums, Karyuu.
Time and effort has value, regardless of talent or style.
Originally posted by Karyuu
Oh, and:
Originally posted by Verrliit
If they were not intended, then they were a happy accident. Never mind the loud complaints by the tiny few in the PS community, who are either jealous, or worshippers of dull and boring.
Way to go, immediately stuffing those who disagree with you into dark little boxes of insignificance :)
I only put a name to the boxes. Those that inhabit them, did so, long before I said a word.
Verrliit
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Xordan says:
\"No rewards\"
People that like to play will carry on playing, without the need for rewards.
My view on rewords for players is don\'t wont it don\'t need it thanks my reword is playing game, to earn what one has is enough for me i start with nothing and i am happy to work my bleep off getting back to were i was before the wipe, alone the way helping others as best i can.
This is what I like to see. :)
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Originally posted by Verrliit
It does not matter if someone exploits this.
But you see, it does. It matters if anyone exploits anything - for PS is meant to be a cheat-free zone in any and all ways.
It is no more a coincidence, than the fact that you have a high post count in the forums, Karyuu. We are both passionately involved and spend a great amount of our time and effort caring about PS.
Ah, but I don\'t expect to get rewarded for it. I don\'t post saying \"Clearly people who spend a lot of time in the forums helping out others and furthering the growth of the community need to be given something in return for their time.\" Whatever I do here is purely volunteered, and frankly it doesn\'t matter whether I spend 100 hours a week contributing something or 5 - it\'s the content of my (and others\') contributions, something that you cannot measure with numbers, nor reward with numbers.
While I do not believe that I am the best Role-Player that PS has ever seen, I am very passionate about it, and work a lot harder at it, than thousands of other players.
And cheers to you for that :)
Non-RP things are part of the game. Rewards should be given for playing, for the same reason that you deserve respect in the forums, Karyuu.
Non-RP things shouldn\'t be part of the game, and this is what we are striving towards - that everything has an RP reason for being, for existing. It\'s all fine and dandy that you try to give RP reasons for things akin to bugs and tests (such as the insanely high weapons) but you cannot honestly expect them to stick around, being, again, only a test. I also don\'t quite follow the reasoning behind that last statement of yours.
Time and effort has value, regardless of talent or style.
Both matter. Someone could put in time and effort to skill grinding, but we both understand that a person could enrich the community a lot more by doing nothing more than talking to others.
I only put a name to the boxes. Those that inhabit them, did so, long before I said a word.
Tsk :) I never thought of myself as being part of the tiny few in the PS community, who are either jealous of your weapons, or worshippers of dull and boring. Try not to divide the community into \"us\" and \"them.\"
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*looks at Verliit\'s posts*
No, no, no.... NO. People should not be rewarded for play-time. You can spend hours passionately power-leveling; this does not deserve a reward. You can make a bot that moves you back and forth by simulating key-presses every 5 minutes while you\'re off doing something else (and don\'t tell me the devs could code for that; that would be quite challenging and would take up a lot of time better used for adding new features). These things don\'t deserve rewards.
What I want to see when the wipe comes is everyone starting from absolute 0. Everyone gets the same things (or things based on life-event choices, etc). If you expect your hard work to be carried over... well, sorry, I doubt it will be, and it shouldn\'t be. The only fair method of carrying things over would be to judge how much of a positive RP-influence you are, and that\'s impossible.
You say the fact that you are passionate about the game means you deserve a reward? Well, I\'m passionate about getting A\'s in school. I spend a lot of time working to get A\'s, studying and slaving away, but the truth is, I\'m just stupid. I fail everything (this isn\'t actually true, by the way :P ). But I deserve A\'s, right? No. If you don\'t do what\'s expected of you, don\'t deserve the rewards. What\'s expected of you when playing Planeshift is role-playing, and there\'s no way to measure that.
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What I want to see when the wipe comes is everyone starting from absolute 0. Everyone gets the same things (or things based on life-event choices, etc).
just a side note: i agree. i think we should get something for a profession choice (which of course will have to be implemented later). for example, if you have chosen mining as a profession, you should at least start off with a few exp in mining and MAYBE a cheap, breakable pickaxe to help you get the first few things you need.
after all, we\'re not starting our PS lives as babies, are we? (unless you want to take the game to a WHOLE new level... urk... >_< ) each character has a story behind his/her life (whether before they came to hydlaa or while they were growing up in it). so they have to have aquired some skill in their profession, and maybe even amassed some amount of money. even just 50 tria would be nice for starters (pocket change, y\'know? not enough to buya weapon right away, but enough to maybe buy some food or a potion if you get attacked). starting from scratch is slightly unrealistic (unless you were in fact mugged on your way into hydlaa or are totally dirt poor).
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One extreme way would be that when the warning for the wipes goes out, pre-set people form several guilds. They would last only until after the wipe, and then get disbanded.
For an example I\'ll use a magic user.
Say you are a mage and have spells, skills, and blah, blah and don\'t want to lose them. A person deemed responsible by the PS guys starts a Mage guild right before the wipe. In order to get into this temporary guild, you have to have certain stats, like 20 in a way and some spells.
The wipe is then preformed.
After the wipe all members in the temporary mage guild have their stats changed to have a certain amount in the ways (Say 5). They also receive enough money to buy enough runes for one spell. After this is done, the guild is disbanded until next wipe. This way, you can\'t cheat your status, and you don\'t lose everything. You get enough for a nice start back up the path.
I personally think it\'d be too much work, but when I thought of it, it seemed to be a interesting solution to those who wish to keep stats, so I lay it here before you guys^_^.
Regardless I think it would be nice to give all members after the wipe a pick and the ability to mine. Those few no0bs who get boosted probably wouldn\'t care and we\'d all avoid the rat slaying part again.
Cash lump sums are nice too. Kinda like a PS trust fund eh?;)
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My only requirement for any start-up stuff is that no one gets anything based on stats, play-time, items, wealth, etc. These things are not role-play and people should not be rewarded for them.
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the only possible concievable way to award good role playing would be to have \"underground\" GM type things... anonymous players who watch other players, observing their RPness and such. kind of like a secret group of players watching other players to award good RPmanship.
but that would be difficult, i believe. the secret of who is watching would have to be well guarded, to avoid players brown-nosing to get rewards.
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Well, yes, that\'s why I suggested that the devs just skip it and start everyone off on the same level... ;)
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[ Eep! I apologize so much for this... Quote and Edit were a bit too close :/ Unfortunately most of the post ended up being removed by accident. If you could edit it back, Verrliit, to include as much of it as it was before... Again, really sorry for my mistake. I\'ll watch myself better next time. --Karyuu ]
[Edit-- You are instantly forgiven, Karyuu. To have won such respect from you, that you would apologize, pleases me greatly. That you consider one of my posts valuable enough to ask me to reconstitute it, pleases me even more. Especially since what I say here might be taken as critical of you. That far outweighs any upset that others might not read what I wrote. :) --Verrliit ]
[Edit-- some was saved, a little was added -- Verrliit]
Originally posted by Karyuu
Originally posted by Verrliit
I only put a name to the boxes. Those that inhabit them, did so, long before I said a word.
Tsk :) I never thought of myself as being part of the tiny few in the PS community, who are either jealous of your weapons, or worshippers of dull and boring. Try not to divide the community into \"us\" and \"them.\"
I am pleased to have provoked introspective thought, Karyuu. :) And I never said you were either of those things.
My weapons? Those who live in those dark little boxes of insignificance as you call them, are jealous of all things exceptional, unusual, rare or extreme, no matter who achieves them. I only argue that extremes should exist, and are good for roleplay and mechanics alike, not that I must personally keep the weapons I currently have.
I agree completely, that doing things to divide the community is wrong. That is why I have extensively debunked such ridiculous and devisive notions as: \"Powerleveler, Arch Enemy of Roleplay\", \"Abusing /tell\", \"Abusing the DR\", and \"Roleplaying Incorrectly\".
They do not exist.
These insults were invented so that a few could call others names, win arguments, and feel superior. They have been used extensively to seriously divide the community, for a very long time.
You are quite right, Karyuu. Those who divide the community, should very properly be ashamed of themselves.
I have spent many hours reading in the forums and engaged in discussion here and elsewhere about PS, and I can no longer resist posting this:
The Blind Men and the Elephant -- John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
?God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!?
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, ?Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ?tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!?
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
?I see,? quoth he, ?the Elephant
Is very like a snake!?
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
?What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,? quoth he;
? ?Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!?
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: ?E?en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!?
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
?I see,? quoth he, ?the Elephant
Is very like a rope!?
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
Moral:
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
I hear passionate argument from each of you, and others, telling me what PS is supposed to be, what is right, and what is wrong.
Each of you says things that are \"true, but\":
Yes, this is officially called a \"Technical Demo\" of the game. But PS has gone public, and has thousands of players who have each put in hundreds of hours of work into the game.
Yes, someone could exploit my proposal for dealing with a wipe. But not enough that the rest of the players should be shortchanged, just to prevent the exploit.
Yes, the weapons with a slash in the hundreds may have been an accident. But that does not make them a bad thing. They have many positive effects, and they do not harm RP in the slightest.
Yes, players do things that are not part of a dialog, or a character interaction. But not all of life or the RP story of one, involves interactions between people.
Yes, the players do not play the way that you expect. But what the players do is what makes most sense to them.
Yes, everyone in PS should RP as best they can. But non-RP play is not wrong. After all, the official treasure hunts and quests are really not RP either. (But I know a player who can make simply having a cold, a fascinating and compelling RP experience. I hope someday to get that good, myself.)
Yes, RP is the point, and the reason PS exists. But the players come to PS, first and foremost to have fun, and short of disrupting the play of others, there is no wrong way to play.
Yes, the players play on the stage that the Devs have built. But...
PS is what the players do, not what the Devs do.
The players will always play to have as much fun as possible, with whatever they are given to play with.
If they did not do what you expect of them, they did not make a mistake. They did not do something wrong, and they did not play incorrectly.
What you expect of them, is unimportant. Your design goals and theories and preferences are irrelevant.
The players do not play with those things.
The players play with what the Devs have built so far.
If they do not do what you expected, you did not build what you thought you did, and you are the one who failed to understand.
Not the players.
PS is what the players do.
Verrliit
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No. If the devs make a rule, the players need to follow it.
If the government sets a speed limit on a road and people speed, is the government in the wrong because the people didn\'t do what the government expected? No.
If you are told to role-play, you role-play. Any activities that are not related to role-play are, as you put it so nicely, \"the enemy.\" If a person does not role-play, that person does not belong in Planeshift, plain and simple. For now, there is no way to ensure that the game is role-play centric. Hopefully, this should be changing soon. Until then, however, the players need to play by the rules the devs set, not say, \"Well, since I can do this, even though they say not to, I will.\"
I will leave you with one final example. Every man has the capability to kill his fellow man. It is illegal, and it is wrong. Everyone tells you it is wrong; you know that is wrong in the community you are in. You can do it, but you shouldn\'t.
While the situation in Planeshift is not quite as extreme, it is, in essence, the same. You don\'t think the devs don\'t mind non-RP activities? Read this (http://www.planeshift.it/roleplay.htm), posted by Talad a while ago. As a player in Planeshift, your responsibility is to role-play. If you don\'t (or at least try to), you shouldn\'t play.
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Fascinating and well typed. Shame that it\'s not easy to find, the world would be so much more alive if everyone followed this thought. It should be right there, the first thing you see when you go to the site. And it should be labeled \"Our Vision\".
But is the game really set up for that? Be honest, the first thing you set the players doing is killing rats to get enough points/gold to mine. This is a singular activity that involves lots of time all by yourself. If you truly want us to become characters and interact, then you need a start that involves deep interaction, not just asking for help and then running off all alone.
Perhaps you could start with a job start quest, like, I wanna be a mage (Yes I like mages), the first quest revolves around this, finding other mages, getting info from them, learning what it is that needs to be done to be a mage. Maybe even adding the ability to become apprentices with special bonuses like exp. sharing.
Even if you pick this as your start, you can still change at any time, this is only an option you pick at the beginning to submerge you into the world, to become a character with a purpose other then, \'start first quest, kill rats, get iron.\'
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But that\'s the thing.. :) This is such a just-a-beginning that the suggestions made (while excellent suggestions, truly) ask for a more complete game. It\'s being worked on - features, quests, jobs, items, balance - it just can\'t happen all at once, and not so soon. Somehow we must all get by, roleplaying while dealing with the OOC things that happen, such as bugs, \"sudden appearances\" of new areas, wipes, etc.
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I understand, really I do. I\'m a writer and have made several small (I mean really small)RPGs. Time moves too fast for those trying to make something:P.
I\'m just suggesting that the beginning should be made top priority. Once someone is into the game and has been worked into an RP position and mentality from the start, then he won\'t care if the other aspects aren\'t done yet.
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Originally posted by Cha0s
No. If the devs make a rule, the players need to follow it.
If the government sets a speed limit on a road and people speed, is the government in the wrong because the people didn\'t do what the government expected? No.
If you are told to role-play, you role-play. Any activities that are not related to role-play are, as you put it so nicely, \"the enemy.\" If a person does not role-play, that person does not belong in Planeshift, plain and simple. For now, there is no way to ensure that the game is role-play centric. Hopefully, this should be changing soon. Until then, however, the players need to play by the rules the devs set, not say, \"Well, since I can do this, even though they say not to, I will.\"
I will leave you with one final example. Every man has the capability to kill his fellow man. It is illegal, and it is wrong. Everyone tells you it is wrong; you know that is wrong in the community you are in. You can do it, but you shouldn\'t.
While the situation in Planeshift is not quite as extreme, it is, in essence, the same. You don\'t think the devs don\'t mind non-RP activities? Read this (http://www.planeshift.it/roleplay.htm), posted by Talad a while ago. As a player in Planeshift, your responsibility is to role-play. If you don\'t (or at least try to), you shouldn\'t play.
Wow.
Boy, you sure told me.
Obey me in the name of Talad, you said. Playing with the mechanics of the game is like speeding or murder, you said. If I do not play the way you like, I should not play, you said.
Oh, yeah. That\'s attractive.
Since you put it that way, every player who reads your words will want to do that, right away.
Yeah, that\'ll work.
Aye, aye, Mister Chaos, Sir!
I will obey orders, salute, and fulfill my responsibilites as a player, rather than try to have the most fun that I can figure out how to have, Sir!
Your grip on the travelling elephant that is PS, is not in the front, I think...
And I thank you for helping me to illustrate my points so well.
(By the way, I have done RP since the 60\'s, I RP with a LOT of people in PS, and even made two crash-interrupted attempts at one of your own little treasure hunts, not too long ago.)
Verrliit
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Originally posted by Karyuu
But that\'s the thing.. :) This is such a just-a-beginning that the suggestions made (while excellent suggestions, truly) ask for a more complete game. It\'s being worked on - features, quests, jobs, items, balance - it just can\'t happen all at once, and not so soon. Somehow we must all get by, roleplaying while dealing with the OOC things that happen, such as bugs, \"sudden appearances\" of new areas, wipes, etc.
Ahh.
Now THAT is dead on.
:)
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Verliit: you do not have to play \"my way.\" All you need to do is role-play. That\'s all I\'m asking. That\'s all Talad is asking. Do you really need to go out of character to have fun? Can you not have fun within the bounds Talad has set? I think you can.
...rather than try to have the most fun that I can figure out how to have...
With that logic, I have fun by cheating, so I should cheat right? No... I believe my previous analogies, while obviously not very inspiring are correct. You should not break rules just because you have more fun that way.
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Role play is highly valued and desired, but who can say that putting a lot of time into hunting down vermin and trying to increase the abilities of your character are not role play? Even though there might not be much \"drama\" involved, progression is a vital part of any game that calls itself an RPG. Dungeon crawls, quests for hidden sages - they can all involve role playing, but the *goal* is a material benefit to the character. Therefore, spending time mining, hunting, or duelling isn\'t RP or anti-RP - it\'s your attitude and interaction with other people during these things that makes or breaks it. If you, for the most part, ignore people, then clearly you\'re playing an individualist, a man (or woman) with a mission. When you *do* interact with people, it should be as much in-character as possible.
A character wipe does indeed destroy progression, but unfortunately them\'s the breaks- progression/loot is greatly screwed up, and must be fixed. I don\'t think there is any particularly good metric for measuring either honest progress or social commitment. Starting everyone off at ground zero, though seems to be a bit of a downer for everyone that HAS spent a lot of time in the game - hopefully they had some fun doing it, but part of that fun I think is the expectation of future reward and the feeling of progress.
It is also natural that when the bulk of the game mechanic centers around slaying monsters and getting loot, then that is what many people will entertain themselves by doing, whether we want more \"roleplay\" or not. This is unavoidable, but not really a contravention of any rule. In fact, it will be entirely necessary to keep the economy afloat :P
People who find a million trias or a Flaming Ice Axe of Dhoom aren\'t \"cheating\", however they\'re recieving benefits as a result of our own error. The wipe is not a \"punishment\" so much as it is an acknowledgement that the world of Planeshift is really in flux and will be for some time.
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Exactly dfryer. As long as the killing/looting of monsters is in-character, I have no problem with it. However, there\'s no way to judge this, and therefore, it\'s best to start everyone off level.
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Lack of imagination, and unnecessary rules are the greatest enemies of RP.
What some call Non-RP play is what RP characters do to pass the time, or for work, or to further progress on a goal, or to gain desired resources.
In real life, what percentage of your day do you spend, actually talking to, and interacting with other people? And some of that time, wouldn\'t you rather just do something mindless, like, umm... slaying?
It is not reasonable, or remotely realistic, to expect that an RP character is any different, or to demand that all or even most of what they do, is to interact with others.
If there is someone, bless their heart, who actually has more fun with the incredibly slow, mind-numbingly painful process of maxing levels, than they do playing with others, let them have their fun. They do not have a significant effect on the game, and if they do not RP, hardly anyone will know that they even exist.
The more RP conversation there is in /say, the better, of course... :)
The Devs work hard on building this place to play, and toys we play with, for which we all are thankful.
But it is the work done by the players, the RP, the stories that they create, that is the thing of value, the whole point of being here, and the stated reason that the Devs created PS in the first place.
The players use what they have been given (including levelling), to play in the most entertaining way they can think of.
As more of the mechanics are enabled, they are increasingly and quite appropriately used in RP and OOC as well, to define social positions.
It is much more critical now, than it was when MB was wiped for CB, to carry at least some symbolic progress through the next wipe.
And all of the long-term players (in hours) deserve respect, not just the ones from MB.
The world of PS is created by the players in it.
From an empty stage, the players miraculously conjure an astonishing world of adventure, romance, humor and mystery.
No one who has put hundreds or thousands of hours into being citizens of Yliakum should have to start entirely from scratch, just because a change in code is needed.
To say that RP is the point of PS, but that the players who create it are unimportant, deserving no reward for their effort, is pure hypocrisy.
(I have proposed a very simple, trivial to code, reasonable and fair method of doing this, based not upon wealth, or luck, or leveling, but upon participation in the game. I offer a better method for the asking, if a Dev will PM me.)
Originally posted by Cha0s
Verliit: you do not have to play \"my way.\" All you need to do is role-play. That\'s all I\'m asking. That\'s all Talad is asking. Do you really need to go out of character to have fun? Can you not have fun within the bounds Talad has set? I think you can.
...rather than try to have the most fun that I can figure out how to have...
With that logic, I have fun by cheating, so I should cheat right? No... I believe my previous analogies, while obviously not very inspiring are correct. You should not break rules just because you have more fun that way.
Re-read your previous post.
You told me in no uncertain terms that I should play your way, or leave.
And you were not asking.
You continue to insinuate that I support some sort of cheating, or do not Role-play, or break rules of some kind.
An apology would have been a very much better thing to choose for your response, Chaos.
But I thank you for the continued inspiration to speak clearly, when I point out what is obviously true.
I hold up a mirror to you, Chaos.
See yourself, and be changed.
Verrliit.
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Verliit, I ask you to read my post again. Did I say that you have to play my way? No. I said \"you\" (read: everyone) need to role-play (and truly role-play, as described in Talad\'s role-play page) or leave, which is the truth; this game is for role-players only. I was not speaking to you directly, and I do not see why you take this so personally. My examples of speeding, murdering, and cheating, are examples only, and were not meant to insinuate anything at all. I do not consider you to be a cheater; in fact, I know you to be a role-player. I am arguing against your arguments, not you.
I think you took my comments a bit too personally and thus do not need an apology for anything but the confusion I caused, an apology which I readily give. Now, moving on to the main post body...
You made a very well-thought out post, but you missed my point. OOC activities do not contribute to Planeshift. Mindless slaying, while probably in-character for some people, is not in-character for everyone. Those who slay out-of-character or those who slay in-character but do not spend time developing their character are not contributing to Planeshift. Those who are idling are also not contributing. My point is that because of these exceptions, you can not award players anything based on play-time, as there is no way to measure the quality of this play-time. Every hour played does not indicate an hour of good role-play. You can slay monsters in-character all you want, but do it with an underdeveloped character. You can also slay monsters for hours and play a quite well-developed character.
Furthermore, time does not play a direct role in the quality of character development. A person who plays for hours each day does not necessarily have a better developed character than one who plays one hour each day. Again, hours played does indicate contribution to the community. Just because you, Verrliit, spend your many hours role-playing does not mean everyone else does. How do the devs judge who\'s role-playing and who\'s power-leveling? I\'ll give you an example of two characters, both of which justify their mob-slaying, but only one of which is truly role-playing (these characters are made up):
1. Underdeveloped Character/Power-leveler
Ferud Bargwulf joins the game and tells all who are interested that he\'s a fighter who kills any monster that moves because he likes blood. He then proceeds to go kill things and level up, happily killing any monster that moves.
2. Well-developed character/True Role-player
Sarak Targosh joins the game as a young hardy Ylian, whose mother and father were slaughtered by an ulbernaut when he was young. Ever since, he has been training to kill that ulbernaut and to exterminate all ulbernauts. He was never raised properly due to his parents\' death and so he is quite rude and uncouth. When others talk to him, they are surprised by his barbarity. He spends most of his time in the sewers and the arena killing things to hone his combat skills; he rarely talks to anyone. His only goal is to become as strong as he can and exact his revenge on the entire race of ulbernauts.
Do you see the difference? One character has background and purpose for his actions. The other has little background and little reason for his actions. There is no way the devs can tell which is which. Rewarding players based on play-time could easily shaft character #2 who might only play an hour a day, and could easily reward character #1 who basically power-levels for hours.
EDIT: for clarity and minor changes
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ya id agree with the guys that say its the ps teams chose their doing this for free and out of the good of their heartts so be greatfull and i cant wait till the demo is discontinued and the real ps is released.
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Rather odd phrasing - the demo won\'t be \"discontinued,\" rather it will -become- the next and better version, and so on and so forth until 1.0 and beyond is reached - and thus PlaneShift will lose the tech-demo title and will be considered an actual game ;) Though that is quite a ways away.
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My dear Chaos.
Though you do not have the grace to apologize, and pretend instead, a misunderstanding of semantics, I see that you have at least started to think sincerely about what would be fair to the players, when you say:
Originally posted by Chaos
Rewarding players based on play-time could easily shaft character #2 who might only play an hour a day, and could easily reward character #1 who basically power-levels for hours.
This is progress, and more important to me than any apology.
You now agree that a player who has an investment in PS should not have to start from scratch, after a wipe.
You have moved on from whether or not it should be done, to the subject of how to do it fairly.
1. I said the proposed expansion to the ring of the past, is offered as a quick solution in case a wipe is required very soon. It is lightyears more fair, than making thousands of players start from scratch again.
2. Yes, a very talented RP artist that does not play very much, would get little reward. He has also invested little time and effort in PS, and what he has already done, has little bearing on continued play. Maybe this change would encourage him to play more, if there is a return for it.
But. Talented RP players already enjoy a huge advantage. Patrons. The best and brightest RP players, get presents from those that value them. Your player #2 does not get shafted at all.
3. Yes someone who spent insane hours grinding the levels, would and should get more of an offset. He has an investment of time and effort that the previous player does not have. His effort gives him more reason to value PS, and to continue to play.
When he reaches the point where leveling is more effort than it is worth, he will either turn to RP for fun or become a GM, as two such players did, in the past few months.
4. Whether a player is a 65 year-old, talented RP artist with a crowd of fans, or an 8 year-old who does not speak english, they should be treated with equal respect for their time, and the effort they put into the game. There is no such thing as play that is not of value to PS.
5. So under my proposal, is there a player that gets shafted? Well... Yes. And I am one of them. There is no compensation for being rich or lucky, or wiping a collection of rare weapons, whatsoever.
Remember that this is a quick solution that can be put together in an hour or two. If we have months to play with, I have one that is much more comprehensive, and adds other functionalities besides transitioning a wipe.
Verrliit
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Originally posted by Verrliit
When he reaches the point where leveling is more effort than it is worth, he will either turn to RP for fun or become a GM, as two such players did, in the past few months.
You do realise this works against your agrument, right? Two players in past few months..? That means such phenomenon is extremely rare. It\'s like saying there\'s no need for AA organisations, because some alcoholics get out of their addiction on their own.
And about beginning of your post: If you want to use big and fancy words, write a book. In discussion it\'s called logical fallacy. I like using such words as well, but it doesn\'t mean I should use them on any occassion. And art of conversation clearly states it shouldn\'t be used in a varied community like the PS one.
Sorry for the rant.
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Verrliit, I tried to explain what I meant, but since you choose to take my words personally, there is nothing further I can do. Continuing on with the main discussion...
I always agreed that a player who contributes to the community should be rewarded. I just said I thought it would be impossible to judge who actually contributes. This point is actually what we differ on, actually: investing time vs. contributing to the community.
You wish to reward players for investing time; your reasoning is that if you invest time, you should get something out of it. I agree, you should get something, and you do: you get the fun of playing the game. I will use another example: I can spend hours doing community service and at the end get nothing but the joy of the work I do and maybe thanks from those I help. In Planeshift, it is the same thing; all you deserve from the game for playing is the joy you get in playing. You knew this was a tech demo before you started playing, so don\'t tell me that because Planeshift is a RPG, you can something for your advancement. A tech demo means that there will be bugs and wipes, which means that you may not get anything when the \"real game\" comes around. The same thing happened to me at the end of the World of Warcraft Beta.
Now, investing time and contributing to the in-game community are quite different. Players who contribute to the in-game community should be rewarded in my opinion, though not because of any inherent obligation of the devs. I have already defined a player who contributes to the community in my post above. I have also mentioned that it is impossible to figure out which players fall into this category and which do not. I hope you\'ll understand now why I say that any type of reward given would be unfair and biased.
Finally, a nitpick on #2. A very talented role-player may play for a short time because that is all the time he/she has on the computer. He/she may put a much greater effort into the game than someone who power-levels (be honest; how hard is to to mob? Everyone has done it and knows that it is easy, even when you get to the harder monsters it isn\'t that challenging). In addition, a role-player might spend hours out-of-game planning how his/her character will develop and what he/she will do in response to changes in the game. Given just this, though, I would not reward this player just as I would not reward a power-leveler. Until I saw the contribution to the community through role-play, no reward would be deserved. However, since I can\'t be everywhere at once and neither can the devs, it is impossible to see who is really contributing in this way and therefore impossible to distribute fair rewards.
There is no such thing as play that is not of value to PS.
I\'m sure I\'m not alone when I disagree. I think Talad\'s detailed role-play page I linked to previously indicates the devs\' feelings on role-play quite well. People who power level are not adding anything to Planeshift. The game will eventually become less fun for them so that they start role-playing or leave, but until it does, I want to make clear that they are not contributing and do not deserve rewards. I will also not respect you simply for having put in a lot of time. I will respect you, Verrliit, because I know that you put in a lot that time role-playing. But simply putting in time does not deserve respect. It has to be quality time.
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Originally posted by Cha0s
Verrliit, I tried to explain what I meant, but since you choose to take my words personally, there is nothing further I can do.
A gentleman would be horrified to have given insult by accident, and apologized profusely. Instead, you made further disparaging comments, and pretended it was I who misunderstood. Do I take it personally? I certainly do, and quite properly. Does anyone who reads the words that you and I have written agree with you, more than they do with me?
Only a few of your friends, I suspect, and only out of loyalty.
Originally posted by Cha0s
I always agreed that a player who contributes to the community should be rewarded. I just said I thought it would be impossible to judge who actually contributes. This point is actually what we differ on, actually: investing time vs. contributing to the community.
You explain this to the 8 year-old boy who does not speak english, (a real person, that I play with) that although he ihas been passionately playing his heart out, to the best of his ability, for hundreds of hours, all of his efforts are meaningless and worthless.
He has touched me, and affected me though I speak no French.
He has contributed to the game, to the best of his ability.
What is carried through a wipe, must represent effort, not talent, or it is wildly unfair.
The talented storytellers need nothing extra for having talent. They have fans, they are popular, they get presents from other players. They get to create art, and they get applause.
And that there is not a perfect way to do it, or that the popularity contest you would prefer cannot be done, is no excuse for shortchanging everyone.
Originally posted by Cha0s
all you deserve from the game for playing is the joy you get in playing. You knew this was a tech demo before you started playing, so don\'t tell me that because Planeshift is a RPG, you can something for your advancement. A tech demo means that there will be bugs and wipes, which means that you may not get anything when the \"real game\" comes around. The same thing happened to me at the end of the World of Warcraft Beta.
So, just because the Devs of WoW did not care about you, and appreciate your efforts, you think it is Ok for the Devs of PS not to care about their players, or reward their dedication either.
Amazing...
Originally posted by Cha0s
Until I saw the contribution to the community through role-play, no reward would be deserved. However, since I can\'t be everywhere at once and neither can the devs, it is impossible to see who is really contributing in this way and therefore impossible to distribute fair rewards.
So, only rewarding the players you approve of, would be fair, but since you can\'t see them all, no one should get anything.
Amazing, again.
Originally posted by Cha0s
Originally posted by Verrliit
There is no such thing as play that is not of value to PS.
I\'m sure I\'m not alone when I disagree. I think Talad\'s detailed role-play page I linked to previously indicates the devs\' feelings on role-play quite well. People who power level are not adding anything to Planeshift. The game will eventually become less fun for them so that they start role-playing or leave, but until it does, I want to make clear that they are not contributing and do not deserve rewards.
There you go, trying to borrow authority again.
You will be alone, very soon.
Originally posted by Cha0s
I will also not respect you simply for having put in a lot of time. I will respect you, Verrliit, because I know that you put in a lot that time role-playing. But simply putting in time does not deserve respect. It has to be quality time.
Yes, RP is the purpose of PS. Yes we try to create Art. But a lack of talent is not a lack of value.
Every player plays to the best of their ability, in the way that makes most sense to them. It does not matter if you or I think it is Art or not. It is all quality time. Every bit of it.
Verrliit.
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this thread was about database wipes not rewards for style of gameplay.
feel the Irony of me telling you to sort it all out eh?
cha0s although I agree with your points, just stop replying.
verrliit, i know you\'ll have another long winded piece of crap to spew after this post about all things wise and wonderful, how you used to tlak to me and other completely pointless subjects, just stop replying.
it\'s amusing to see, every heavily posted topic has some common member of the community stating true facts, and verrliit, with her ideals, sure some are right, some are wrong.
I like how Draklar has done the smart and not bothered much with this subject
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You explain this to the 8 year-old boy who does not speak english, (a real person, that I play with) that although he ihas been passionately playing his heart out, to the best of his ability, for hundreds of hours, all of his efforts are meaningless and worthless.
Firstly this boy (if he does exist) if he only plays to level then he is missing the point on the game, your stats don?t matter its your characters history and their experiences that will perceiver any wipe.
He has touched me, and affected me though I speak no French.
(a real person, that I play with)
So how do you know he is eight? Also how do you play with him if you can?t understand him. Its not a pointing and grunting game, you can?t point to food and go ?GRUNT GRUNT? and have someone understand that you want food. But even then pointing isn?t implemented yet and grunting in chat is not very productive. Another point is that if this boy does not exist then you are trying to use guilt to get people to take your side, unfortunately your statements seem to contradict each other so I can reasonably assume that you are trying to use this fictitious boy as a tool to further your arguments.
So, just because the Devs of WoW did not care about you, and appreciate your efforts, you think it is Ok for the Devs of PS not to care about their players, or reward their dedication either.
Prove the ?Devs of Wow did not care about you? they need to care about pepole or else they get no money = no job = no game.
There you go, trying to borrow authority again.
Borrow authority, what is he taking Talad?s cool god powers?
It is all quality time. Every bit of it.
Then enjoy what you have and don?t complain about it, or if you do complain make it constructive.
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Originally posted by Keyaz
this thread was about database wipes not rewards for style of gameplay.
Yes it is, and although I do sometimes reply as I do here, to provide clarity to those who did not actually read my posts, and may sometimes show disdain for those who are ill-mannered, my subject has never wavered.
But since you demonstrate there is a need:
Summary for those who can\'t be bothered to read what has gone before:
I oppose players being wiped completely, and having to start from scratch without compensation.
I have proposed an expansion to the Ring of the Past, as a means of doing so, indexed to time logged, so that the CB players can join the MB players, fairly.
There has been discussion surrounding that idea, to which opposition has been rather unconvincing.
And speaking of opposition, and inappropriate personal attacks:
Originally posted by Watcher
So how do you know he is eight? Also how do you play with him if you can?t understand him. Its not a pointing and grunting game, you can?t point to food and go ?GRUNT GRUNT? and have someone understand that you want food. But even then pointing isn?t implemented yet and grunting in chat is not very productive. Another point is that if this boy does not exist then you are trying to use guilt to get people to take your side, unfortunately your statements seem to contradict each other so I can reasonably assume that you are trying to use this fictitious boy as a tool to further your arguments.
There are some who have been my opponents, and a very few, who try very hard to pretend I am their enemy, but you are the very first, who has ever tried to accuse me of lying. Congratulations.
The boy exists. His parents are officers in a guild, and so he plays here too. That you could not conceive of it, only shows your lack of imagination, and that you lack empathy for children.
Verrliit
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This will be last my post in this thread unless something drastic happens. Please excuse me if I am slightly less restrained than in other posts, but I feel the need to address some issues Verrllit has raised and the matter of Verrliit herself. And yes Verrliit, I may insult you a bit, though I say only what I perceive to be true.
Does anyone who reads the words that you and I have written agree with you, more than they do with me?
Verrliit: You are deluded. I will tell you now that I could name at least five prominent community members here who not only agree with the gist of what I have been saying, but also strongly disagree with what you are saying (I will not extend that agreement to this post, however, as it is a bit more radical than my usual). I will not name them here now, for doing so without their permission would be disloyal and unkind. However, I assure you that they are people that you claim to respect because they have put a lot of time into Planeshift (FYI, they have a high post-count, since you seem to think this is important).
Your attitude on these forums bothers me more than the attitude of anyone else I have ever met here, mainly because you seem to be an intelligent person, at least one well-accomplished in writing. What bothers me is that you refuse to consider anything that anyone else says. I am not talking just about this thread, but on any thread that you have a strong opinion on, you refuse to give an inch, regardless of anyone else\'s arguments; you may agree with something that\'s similar to what you think, but on further queries it is revealed that you were only agreeing with the parts you liked. You further imply (don\'t ask me to point to where, this is an impression only) that the arguments of others are substandard, in fact, beneath you. And you quite blatantly attack people for using dishonest tactics that you yourself use. Regardless of whether or not you agree with people, deprecating their arguments and libeling their persons like this is not acceptable and I assure you I am not alone when I say this.
You also have the habit of twisting peoples\' words to mean what you want them to mean, or to mean something that is intended to insult you. Believe it or not, most people try to be civil most of the time. After putting up with your twisted logic for so long, however, I feel I will be unable to do this much longer; you can tell that I\'m already slipping a bit. That is why this will probably be my last response to you in this thread.
Finally, the greatest reason that I am bothered by your posts is not their content, but their intent and the methods you use in writing them. You manipulate people and manipulate their words so that you win, so that you get what you want, which is rarely what is best for the community. I have nothing to gain from this argument. You have quite a lot to gain and you are doing your best to make sure you succeed. Again, you have never said these things; these are only the impressions that I get from reading your posts. I am quite disappointed in general, as my initial impression of you was a progressive and intelligent woman, if a bit stubborn. I now find myself to have erred greatly in this assumption.
Having addressed these issues, I will move on to replying to your main post body.
You provided a wonderful example of a little boy who puts in hours of play-time and who would be heartbroken if all this time came to nothing. It\'s quite touching (there is no sarcasm here), but I don\'t think it matters. He may be trying to contribute, but failing miserably. Does this mean he should be punished? No, but it does not mean he deserves a reward either.
I could try to put an 8-year old boy to work as a professional programmer. He would fail miserably and get fired in seconds. However, once he grew up a bit, he might learn some programming, come back, and do just fine. The same goes for role-playing. If he can role-play when he\'s young, then great, I\'d love to see him in-game. But if he can\'t, the same rules apply to him as to everyone else. As for his time being meaningless, I\'d like to note that the point of the game is to have fun. If he wasn\'t having fun during those hours, then, yes, his time was meaningless and it\'s his own fault for playing a game that didn\'t make him happy. The stats and wealth are just a method through which fun is promoted. If you need them to have fun, you\'re missing the point of the game.
On a side-note, I am very disappointed with you for trying to use this image of a little foreign boy as your main example in that post. You and I both know that regardless of its authenticity, you chose that example purely for its value as propaganda; or perhaps you don\'t know: it may have been subconcious; it seems quite clear to me, however. This web forum does not need propaganda and I\'d request that you stop trying to influence people by appealing to emotions that are not an issue in the discussion (i.e. \"empathy for children\" is not being discussed).
So, just because the Devs of WoW did not care about you, and appreciate your efforts, you think it is Ok for the Devs of PS not to care about their players, or reward their dedication either.
My statement about WoW was merely an example; you can not expect the devs to reward you for playing the game. This is a tech demo; the devs say all the time, You are a tester; when you play, you acknowledge that there will be bugs and that you may lose everything.
So, only rewarding the players you approve of, would be fair, but since you can\'t see them all, no one should get anything.
I was using myself as a scaled down example of what the devs would have to deal with. I did not mean it literally. I\'m pretty sure you are aware of this, or you\'re a lot less intelligent than I pegged you to be (please don\'t go and take this as an insult; I\'ve already discussed how you twist peoples\' words. I don\'t need more examples).
You say that what is carried through from the wipe must represent effort. I\'ve already said I disagree. What I want is for what is carried through to be a representation of role-playing \"talent\" as you call it (which is in large part effort). However, as I have said, this is impossible to judge.
The talented storytellers need nothing extra for having talent. They have fans, they are popular, they get presents from other players. They get to create art, and they get applause.
This statement alone shows how you misunderstand role-playing. The role-players do not tell stories, they are the story. Everyone in the world should be a part of this story (Talad discussed this: read his article, all of it). Those who are a part of the story deserve to be rewarded for playing the game as it should be played. As for the \"fans,\" \"popular,\" and \"presents\" comments, I will only shake my head. Role-players are normal people who you see in-game all the time. They are nothing special. Maybe there are a few shining stars, but they\'re not the only ones who deserve to be rewarded. Again, though, you can\'t really judge.
I have argued everything out to the best of my ability, but I doubt that you will change your opinions or your posting methods the least bit. This saddens me, but I felt that I needed to say this. Now, I\'m done. Respond to this how you will; you will receive no more responses from me.
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Originally posted by Cha0s
yes Verrliit, I may insult you a bit
Certainly. You have been insulting me, in any way you thought you could get away with, all along. Why stop now?
Oh, do lets complete the quote you made from me:
Does anyone who reads the words that you and I have written agree with you, more than they do with me?
Only a few of your friends, I suspect, and only out of loyalty.
Originally posted by Cha0s
Verrliit: You are deluded. I will tell you now that I could name at least five prominent community members here who not only agree with the gist of what I have been saying, but also strongly disagree with what you are saying.
Well Chaos, no matter how insulting you are, or how loudly and long you try to discredit me:
The fact remains, that the players are the most important people in PS.
They are who PS is being built for.
The Devs compensated the MB players for wiping their characters, so they would not have to start CB entirely from scratch.
It only makes sense, that the CB players should have something of the sort, as well.
You disagree?
You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
But you are not entitled to abuse and insult me, belittle me, give me orders, or tell me what to think, the way you have been doing.
And I don\'t twist words.
I make sense.
Verrliit.
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This thread has gone on for a bit too long ? I feel that everything that really needed to be said has been said, and the time for a lock approaches when posters lean away from discussing the topic and begin to discuss each other, no matter how right or wrong they may be. Both parties of the argument have stated their opinions, and both have stated facts supporting them. However, it is the developers that have the final say in the matter, and several of them have already contributed to this thread with their own opinions and plans. If anyone would like to raise arguments, I suggest that you do it on a more private and personal medium with the people that have control of wipes and balancing issues in general ? although, again, several of them have made themselves clear here.
In the end, remember that wipes are done never out of laziness, but out of necessity, and if there would be any way to avoid them, the PlaneShift team would. As the game system begins to balance itself out, through several stages and wipes, no doubt players will begin to keep more for their time and effort in-game, though again it is all purely volunteered ? and to expect something back for time you willingly and freely gave of yourself is an odd concept.
That said, the wipe will come and go as planned, and many more will follow ? and to argue about it here is futile. If there are any changes or if anyone truly has something significant and new to add, PM me, as always, and I will possibly reopen the thread.