PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: zanzibar on December 28, 2005, 02:21:45 am
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\"Originality\" isn\'t a good enough reason to stay away from typical mythological creatures.
But it occurred to me today, that there\'s another good reason for it which I don\'t recall anyone putting forward before in this forum.
If you\'re fresh off the farm or have never been outside of Hydlaa before, chances are you\'ve never seen a dragon or troll or orc before, if they were hypothetically in the game. However, we\'ve all seen these creatures before countless times in movies, books, and games. We have a very strong sense of how they \'should\' be presented.
However, with clackers, grendols, ulbernaughts, trepors, and so on, new players don\'t have a clue!
Maybe your first encounter is sudden and unexpected. It has this wonderful sense of \'newness\' to it which you wouldn\'t have if it were something normal.
And there\'s talking to people in the plaza about all the creatures you haven\'t seen yet. You have only the words of others to go on. That leaves room for exaggeration and imagination.
And that\'s what I think the real benefit is. Colour, imagination, player interaction, newness, maybe even surprise and wonder. It\'s not just to be different - it\'s to create a better experience for people playing the game.
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I couldn\'t have said that better(or even that well)! Morrowind held much more fun for me when I could get lost between Balmora and Caldera. The total alieness of a world holds mystery. If these kinds of creatures were introduced, when you heard someone say Dragon or Fairy, you would have an idea what to expect.
The first time I heard the term \"Trepor\", I was intrigued. What kind of creature is that? How dangerous is it? So that, the first time I approached one, there was a sense of the unknown, suspense. Now that I am familiar with them, I am like, O yea, a trepor. Yeah, I can kill one.
I still have the desire to level and kill an ulbernaught. Even though I have met one(He decided to give me a free weekend pass to DR), they hold mystery for me because I am thinking: What will it take to fight one?
That is the single best point I have heard regarding the issue. Thanks for bringing it up.
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You basically just said you have a reason besides originality, and then gave a reason that defines originality.
And in any case the argument is defeated by the fact that here are humans, elves, and dwarves.
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Originally posted by Kiern
You basically just said you have a reason besides originality, and then gave a reason that defines originality.
And in any case the argument is defeated by the fact that here are humans, elves, and dwarves.
Sheesh, do you have to disagree with everything? :)
First, you can do something for the sake of originality, or you can do something to create a sense of imaginative wonder. Those are two very different things, two very different goals, even if they are connected sometimes.
As far as humans, elves, and dwarves, those are shown at character creation. People are aware of them from the get-go. Therefore, you don\'t exactly learn about them for the first time during your exploration of the Planeshift world. Even if that weren\'t the case, it doesn\'t really counter anything I said. It\'s pretty unrelated, actually. Thanks for the thoughts though!
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I had the impression that the Elves, Dwarves, and Humans are alien here. I haven\'t found the Planeshift History text, so I can\'t say that with certainty.
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Originally posted by Kythag
I had the impression that the Elves, Dwarves, and Humans are alien here. I haven\'t found the Planeshift History text, so I can\'t say that with certainty.
Yup, they\'re alien to the land where things take place, but they aren\'t alien to western literature. I think that\'s the point he was trying to make, on the surface anyway. ;)
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Kythang, you have to click \"story\" button next to other similiar buttons located just below the tavern image at top. Then at the left you will see additional links.
On topic
All the races are integrated and live long enough in Yliakum that none of them may be called allien, i think. And if you wan\'t to know which races came to Yliakum from other planes. All the races besides Krans and Lemurs. Krans are Talads creations and Lemurs are Laanxs. I gues also Ynnwn count because they are crossing beatwen elf and diaboli and they crossed after both races came to Yliakum.
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kiern he goes a little further.
also, xordan is a fairie.
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Originally posted by Drey
kiern he goes a little further.
also, xordan is a fairie.
I vote that someone models a fairie, just for Xordan to use in-game. :-D
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by Drey
kiern he goes a little further.
also, xordan is a fairie.
I vote that someone models a fairie, just for Xordan to use in-game. :-D
They already did that, and called it \"Dermorian\".
Now this whole argument can just as well be taken as a disadvantage. Realistically the creatures should be known one way or another. Otherwise folklore stories would never exist. I mean, do you think any of the people living in the past ever met a troll? No, and yet they were known enough to survive in various stories to this very day. And we are talking about world where such creatures actually exist. One would assume they would be even more known than the ones in real life. But instead, as you say, they are hardly known.
I\'m sure there would be an old man telling his grandchildren about what he had seen during his ventures all over the Yliakum or what he heard about. The tales would be probably pretty common. Told by bards and experienced warriors.
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Nikodemnus:
Thanks for the directions. My habit of scrolling right to read text has finally bit me...
Very entertaining and informative text. No wonder Kythag started off with 140 Str and 110 End!
The text backs me up Elves, Dwawrves, and Humans are NOT indigenous to Yliakum. They can be, at best, labelled \"naturalized\" citizens of Yliakum.
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naturalized? LOl we are talking centuries here if I\'m not mistaken. If you think of it that way we are all foreigners then as everyone has ancestors that moved at one point in time.
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Centuries? I think I need to reread the history. I had the impression that it hadn\'t been very long since this all happened. I did read it last night while running on Mt. Dew caffeination though(I still am :D ).
The original point, however, addresses someone saying that Elves, Dwarves, and Humans were indigenous to this world.
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the races may not be, but the species (if that is the word) such as dermorian, stonebreaker and what else are.
also, when speaking English you use s\'s not z\'s
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Actually, I just used a spellchecker. \"Naturalized\" is spelled right. Is this another UK/America spelling difference? Like Grey/Gray? This occurred in another thread somewhere here.
Also, I just read the history, and I distinctly remember the text saying that only Krans and Lemurs are indigenous to Yliakum. The others were sent by Vodul. It might be more accurate to say that Krans and Lemurs were created in Yliakum by Laanx and Talad.
Oh, I think I have it. When I said Dwarves, Elves, and Humans, I was referring to Dermorians, Ylians, etc. coming through portals to get to Yliakum. These species are indigenous to the overall world, but I am referring to their arrival on the stalactite they currently reside on.
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Originally posted by Kythag
Actually, I just used a spellchecker. \"Naturalized\" is spelled right. Is this another UK/America spelling difference? Like Grey/Gray? This occurred in another thread somewhere here.
The language you claim to be typing in is called English, no?
...Thought so, therefore the word is Naturalised.
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Originally posted by Drey
Originally posted by Kythag
Actually, I just used a spellchecker. \"Naturalized\" is spelled right. Is this another UK/America spelling difference? Like Grey/Gray? This occurred in another thread somewhere here.
The language you claim to be typing in is called English, no?
...Thought so, therefore the word is Naturalised.
Now if only there was only one form of English >.>
Kythag: I believe so. Americans spell things with \'z\', while brits with \'s\'. o/ou is another example (armor/armour).
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You know, you are a GM. The word of the day here is \"professionalism\"! Since you speak the English language, why don\'t you look that word up. You need to learn what it means and apply it to what you are doing here!
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easy tiger, don\'t start throwing things at my baby Drey! <3
it can be spelt either way, which way you want whenever you want, depends where you\'re born how you were brought up spelling it.
but it doesn\'t matter, its stil lthe same bloomin word, loosen off your knickers and breathe before you bust a blood vessel... or nut... whatever.. :]
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On the down side of having everything with weird names. Everyone enters the world as a full grown person with the knowlege of a new born baby.
Ooh look hey whats that! Ooh and that! lol.
Frankly I couldn\'t even tell you what race my character is. It was just the only model I could really stand looking at for long.
No offense I know over half the races are not completed, but I don\'t like the look of most of them. Personnal preference/opinion I know. So don\'t try to crucify me over it.
Except for the ROUS\'s I knew what they were right off the bat when I entered the sewers. lol. Rodents of Unusual Size for those who haven\'t seen the Princess Bride. Funny movie.
Basically with all the weird names it\'s kind of like learning to speak a foreign language. Because if I see something that looks like a dragon I\'m gonna call it a dragon.
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I believe that the purpose of the lack of knowledge is to create suspense. Should I attack the clacker? How powerful is he?
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If someone can\'t guess the power of a clacker just by the look of it, then something\'s wrong with the game. I mean, it\'s not like it\'s some magic-wielding mystical creature to surprise anyone.
Giant spider would give you as much suspense as a clacker. Seriously.
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Surprisingly enough, Draklar, there are times when giant spiders are devastating. It\'s particularly hard to judge power of insectoids - since there is almost always something hidden, and some defense mechanisms are a real treat.
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Compared to a dryad, which although fragile looking, can have enormous power, I don\'t think they can be all that surprising...
And I never said giant spiders are harmless puppies :P
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I don\'t think changing the name of something has any effect on combat or suspense.
Suspense is anytime you haven\'t fought something before and don\'t know how dangerous it is.
Whether it\'s called a Clacker or a Giant Spider if you\'ve never fought it before it doesn\'t matter.
A lack of knowledge being lets not display the level of the targetted person or creature.
Doesn\'t matter what it looks like or what it\'s called. If you haven\'t fought it before it\'s the same.
Changing the names is neat but beyond that it\'s not exactly a game altering mechanic.
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Well if Clacker\'s would act as they are supposed to be, they could fell every warrior, considering that they *usually* attack in swarms of hundrets or thousands... \"kill one and two come..\"
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So you\'re saying you had fought a Clacker before this game? I\'m sorry, I just hadn\'t fought one before. I agree that suspense comes from something you\'ve never fought before. I had never fought a Clacker before. Should I have used a Trepor for my example?
I also have gotten the impression that someone thinks that a Clacker is a creature that has existed before with a different name. Not to me. And I don\'t know about anybody else, but judging a creatures power by its size can get you into some real trouble. If I\'m playing D&D, pull a cloak out of a closet, and yellow dust starts flying, I am going to be concerned. What if they had decided to make the Clacker highly poisonous? Would you be more afraid of a Clacker or a cow? Cows are larger , you know.
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Originally posted by Kythag
So you\'re saying you had fought a Clacker before this game? I\'m sorry, I just hadn\'t fought one before. I agree that suspense comes from something you\'ve never fought before. I had never fought a Clacker before. Should I have used a Trepor for my example?
Have you fought a troll before in this game?
What makes you think that if you fought creature with same name but different stats and different skills system, then you\'d know its strength in all possible games?
Or do you mean knowing approximate strength of creatures? Would you expect a clacker to have strength of a dragon? Or Ulbernaut strength of a bunny rabbit? :P
I repeat, if you can\'t guess an approximate strength of a non-magical creature just by its apparence, then there\'s something wrong with the game.
Not only something like that means your character has a child\'s mind and doesn\'t know anything about the outside world, but also has problems with making basic conclusions.
And by coclusions I mean... Clackers have sharp cutting thingies and behave agressive... Cows are slow and don\'t move much, let alone being agressive. Clackers are more dangerous.
You know, I never fought wolf or cow before... But I\'m pretty sure despise the former being smaller, it is more dangerous.
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Exactly lets say WoW had \"Clackers\" in fact oops they do. lol.
Ok given they look completely different from each other. Yet if I have no reason to assume having playing multiple MMORPG\'s that Clacker in PS is the same as a Clacker is WoW.
Actually they may be called \"Crackers\" in WoW but it\'s like \"Makura Clacker, or Makura Cracker\" I think Clacker though. Doesn\'t matter it\'s a crab vs a spider thingy.
Or if it was Giant spiders from different games, etc.
So as I was saying no matter what you call something the first time someone comes across it in game there will be some suspense. Untill they have killed one or two and are sure they can take them in that area.
Of course WoW is a bad example since not much suspense with anything after awhile and you figure out what level ranges and how many at each level you can take. Of course there is still the oddball AI here and there with some special abilities that could throw off your well calculated assault.
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I kind of agree that the names are pointless, since when I\'m sneaking up on something new, I probably have no clue what it\'s called either way.
But I do think that the whole dragons and faeries and whatchamajiggers should stay out, since it is too resembling of a commonly known creature. It would be very difficult to maintain a RP \"What on earth is that?\" when i\'m staring at a winged 40-foot fire breathing lizard. Even if we named it something like \"Skibbleblasters\", it would just be too close, and EVERY newbie would be calling it a dragon, making our rule of keeping as much real life references to mystical things obsolete. Even adding them in as \"legends\" is too much, since some folk would get story-happy and say that they were attacked by a dragon on the road to Hydlaa. a flat out lie, since it\'s just not possible. plus it takes away from creativeness.
\'sides, instead of a dragon legend, i think there would most likely be a \"giant rat\" legend. It stalks naughty childrens in the night and eats your garbage in one bite! fear it! *runs*
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Originally posted by TheMinority
It would be very difficult to maintain a RP \"What on earth is that?\" when i\'m staring at a winged 40-foot fire breathing lizard.
I don\'t think something as powerful as a 40-foot fire breathing lizard would remain unknown to the common folk, so I don\'t see why someone would role-play \"What on earth is that?\" o.O
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Originally posted by Draklar
Originally posted by TheMinority
It would be very difficult to maintain a RP \"What on earth is that?\" when i\'m staring at a winged 40-foot fire breathing lizard.
I don\'t think something as powerful as a 40-foot fire breathing lizard would remain unknown to the common folk, so I don\'t see why someone would role-play \"What on earth is that?\" o.O
if i presume right, in roleplay common folk would scream like a child and run to the nearest house hoping it ignores them.
and at this point, using mentioned creature, the player behind character would sigh \"not another frickin dragon\"
hmm, giant winged lizard....originality.... hmm... ooh i know, has anyone tried using a giant winged fire breathing single cell amoeba?! ooh! how about a white blood cell?! pwnage! :D
ok ok, that was sarcasm and this has no point...
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Oh right, I recalled something. Many people seem to consider using mythology creatures as overdone and believe that one cannot come up with interesting and completely original creatures by using it. I\'ll be trying to oppose that belief in the book I hope to finish one day, and I shall ask here:
How many of you heard of such creatures as:
Drekavac, Likho (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1f/Likho.jpg), Kikimora (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Kikimora.jpg/180px-Kikimora.jpg), Nocnitsa, Ovinnik, Woodwose (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/23/ADurerWoodwoses1499.jpg/280px-ADurerWoodwoses1499.jpg), Gagana, Tikbalang, or Kelpie (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/gallery/folklore/folklore/kelpie.jpg)?
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Originally posted by Draklar
How many of you heard of such creatures as:
Drekavac, Likho (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1f/Likho.jpg), Kikimora (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Kikimora.jpg/180px-Kikimora.jpg), Nocnitsa, Ovinnik, Woodwose (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/23/ADurerWoodwoses1499.jpg/280px-ADurerWoodwoses1499.jpg), Gagana, Tikbalang, or Kelpie (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/gallery/folklore/folklore/kelpie.jpg)?
You have got one :).
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I have heard of Woodwoses as the naked barbarian Nords in Morrowind! :D
The large Bigfoot from the Bugs Bunny cartoons looks mean. He don\'t act it though! :D
What I was saying about creatures wasn\'t focused \"names only\". I am saying that with a similar looking creature with a different name, you never know if the designer added features to make a creature more or less dangerous, despite its size or looks. The Bull Netch from Morrowind is extremely large and aggressive(if attacked), but the much smaller Betty Netch is much more dangerous. The look similar except for size. There is no way to know that the Betty Netch is more dangerous until you have fought both creatures.
Now replace the images of Betty and Bull netches with Dragon images. Your first instinct would be Big Dragon, little dragon. Accepted mythos of the dragons is the larger they are, the meaner they are(usually). So judging solely by size or weapon implements(bulls have horns and, while normally docile, they can kill. If you don\'t know what a cow is, you might assume that the horns equate to non-docile.), might not be always accurate.
So what I originally said(apparently very poorly) is that something similar looking, renamed, might have different abilities, and they might not be as apparent as claws or horns(the Betty Netch has a very nasty magical attack). If you judged a Betty Netch by its looks, you might think it comes close, grabs you, and squeezes with tentacles. Instead you find you are ranged attacking a ranged attacker and die for your mistake.
So I am saying that prejudging a creature by similarities you have seen before or its implements or lack thereof might be inaccurate and have no or devastating consequences.
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Well I did say non-magical creatures, so not sure if that example works. Noteworthy if some creature is more dangerous than it looks, it would be very likely you\'d hear it from some travellers in your life before the adventuring phase.
Unless like in case of Morrowind, where you come from another land. Heh, that actually comes well with the fact that many of the creatures there are new concepts and unknown to the player.
And, erm... Thinking of observing a cow gnawing on some grass and a wolf exposing its teeth, I believe the cow wouldn\'t really seem too dangerous, no matter what.
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I was raised around cattle. A bull with horns seems not very dangerous, even when you are told they aren\'t. That is until you are in a field with one and have to jump a barbed wire fence(losing half your pants in the process) to keep from getting skewered by one.
You are right, you said non-magical. Can you really have this discussion about ingame animals and not include them though?
I do agree that if you have lived in a land, you would be aware of a creatures capablities. The only solution there would be to post a Creature Compendium of sorts. It would take away from the suspense factor, however.
Also, I stated that looking at a Bull or Betty Netch, you might conclude that they are melee creatures. We could take the magical attack away and make it a spitting attack so that we can take the magical aspect away from the example.
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Originally posted by Kythag
I was raised around cattle. A bull with horns seems not very dangerous, even when you are told they aren\'t. That is until you are in a field with one and have to jump a barbed wire fence(losing half your pants in the process) to keep from getting skewered by one.
Ah well, can\'t argue with that. I stand corrected then :]
But I assume when you didn\'t listen to warnings, you were a child? That might be the case as well.
You\'re also right in your further point. Certain special creatures like the ones which have spitting attack would go outside of the rule.
Then again in the end it doesn\'t cover all possibilities. I suppose there\'s no real best solution for this :P
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Creature names have nothing to do with a player sizing them up.
You size things up by fighting them. I mean if you called a dragon a Fluffy Bunny people wouldn\'t see it and look at the name and go...Oh it\'s just a Fluffy Bunny thats no problem.
Likewise dragons and their powers are depicted differently in just about every movie/game out there. Aside from your typical fire breathing dragon. Which is only one type of dragon. Kind of like how a Black Widow is only one kind of spider.
So as I said suspense is created the first time a creature is fought. Not it\'s name or how it looks.
Thus you get suspense when playing either Pokemon or Neverwinter Nights.
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Actually in pokemon it was all about the levels and power types, whereas first was displayed and second easy to guess by appearance... So there was not much suspense. But, umm >_>
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Well do with it what they will. It\'s their game not mine.
However saying \"We\'re not gonna have dragons because they\'re overdone in mythical fantasy games.\" is really silly when you have Dwarves, and such in game.
Even if the Dwarves aren\'t native to the world. Well there\'s your excuse to suck content from any mythos or fantasy you want.
Dwarves can get there but not dragons?
Not that I care if Dragons are in game or not. Just making a point.
As well I haven\'t seen many mobs in PS yet other than whats in the sewers under the starting city.
However creating a creature similar to a typical mythological fantasy creature and calling it by a weird name does not = original content.
If it did I could buy a copy of Realm Crafter rename it MMORPG Maker Deluxe and not get sue\'d for selling it.
Now the opposite is completely different. You can call a elf an elf but have him look and act differently than typical fantasy elves do. Because then you\'ve created an all new kind of elf. Not just renamed a typical type of elf.
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When they say \"overdone\", I believe they are actually saying that they are ovedone as a creature that redefines the game. Dwarves, elves, humans, who cares, right? But say that you have a Dragon or you have a creature that looks like a dragon and the selling point becomes, \"They have Dragons!\"
I can guarantee that no one(or very few, if I\'m wrong) are going around saying,\"Let\'s play PlaneShift, they have dwarves!\" What they are saying is,\"Hey, this game wants players to actually roleplay, let\'s check it out.\" Add a dragon, some of those same people will be,\"Hey they have dragons\" or they will say \"Oh, another game with dragons.\" That is why the PS staff is against it. At least that is what I think from what I have heard them say.
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Originally posted by Kythag
I can guarantee that no one(or very few, if I\'m wrong) are going around saying,\"Let\'s play PlaneShift, they have dwarves!\"
Wow, that sounds like something I would do :P
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Ah, proof that it doesn\'t take my direct involvement for one of my threads to derail and go off topic. :) I\'m vindicated at last!
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Ah right, Kythag: It might be just my personal belief, but I think elves are much more overdone than the dragons. I think elves and dwarves are representing the fantasy more than the dragons.
Originally posted by zanzibar
Ah, proof that it doesn\'t take my direct involvement for one of my threads to derail and go off topic. :) I\'m vindicated at last!
Ironically that\'s the first off-topic post ^^
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First off, you will never be vindicated, zanzibar!
:D
I have to agree about the elves thing, dammit.
:\\
I do have to say that there are no D&D series called ElfLance, however. Still, the overdone dragon argument is flawed. Wow, all this to prove that the PS staff is human.
:D
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When I got Guild Wars I did not think \"oh another game with dragons.\"
When I got WoW I did not say \"Oh another game with dragons.\"
Or the countless other D&D computer RPG games I played with what? Dragons.
Besides the only thing cooler than slaying a dragon is slaying a Balrog in my book.
People do not put games back on shelves or not play them based on the presence or lack of one creature.
Unless maybe it had elves, dwarves, humans, orks, etc. But only let you play humans. Then I would be like WTF? I wanna play a ork!
Nor have I ever specifically looked for a game containing a specific creature.
Especially MMO\'s the only thing I look for is variety. Give me 100 classes, 200 professions, and 50 races. I would drown in the bliss.
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Originally posted by Draklar
Ironically that\'s the first off-topic post ^^
You\'re wrong. Instead of talking about reasons to be original besides originality, people are talking about which is worse to have - dragons or elves, about what parts of the game are original and which aren\'t, etcetera. That\'s all off topic.
One of the things about Daggerfall was that it did take advantage of more obscure creatures in the vein of the ones you\'ve suggested time to time. The thing is, it did have conventional dragons -- however dragons were extremely rare to meet! You could meet dragon whelps every so often, but the only way to meet an actual dragon was through ONE daedra related quest which would only maybe appear at random only maybe if you had a certain reputation. That made the meeting a highly prized event, worthy of entire webpages with screenshots and all.
Still, even if you have \"dragons\" or \"elves\" in the game, but very rare and/or very different from conventional ideas about them, you\'re still starting with the preconceptions people have. Instead of it being new, it\'s something which is to a large part evolving out of something else.
\"What\'s in that cave?\"
\"A dragon.\"
\"Oh, that sounds hard.\"
\"Dragons here are different from what you might have heard of.\"
\"Oh?\"
Do you see the problem? The sense of newness and experimentation is diminished. Anyway, staying on topic is hard since there seems to be a lot to ramble about.
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The Zanzibar post was the first post that was totally off topic, in my humble opinion...
PS is not the first fantacy MMORPG out there. No one will log on and be completely surprized about any of the PS world no mater what the creatures look like.
I completely agree with Trinx on this one: \"However creating a creature similar to a typical mythological fantasy creature and calling it by a weird name does not = original content.\"
My gripe with the whole originallity issue is that if you use the stereotypical characters then it is much easier to roleplay your character. I do not think you have a completly original world and have good role play at the same time. These two goals do not mesh well with each other. The PS lore is only 5 or 10 pages of typed text. Draklar could rewrite the lore in a weekend and poof, PS is now a world with Dragons and Orcs and most PS players would call it a step up in development. The whole world in a cave thing could just be one of the things oldbies can talk about... I remember when...
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No what people are talking about is why is there a hlaf cocked approach to originality. As well as a half-cocked approach to the reasons for originality.
I find the subject is on topic.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
The Zanzibar post was the first post that was totally off topic, in my humble opinion...
PS is not the first fantacy MMORPG out there. No one will log on and be completely surprized about any of the PS world no mater what the creatures look like.
I completely agree with Trinx on this one: \"However creating a creature similar to a typical mythological fantasy creature and calling it by a weird name does not = original content.\"
My gripe with the whole originallity issue is that if you use the stereotypical characters then it is much easier to roleplay your character. I do not think you have a completly original world and have good role play at the same time. These two goals do not mesh well with each other. The PS lore is only 5 or 10 pages of typed text. Draklar could rewrite the lore in a weekend and poof, PS is now a world with Dragons and Orcs and most PS players would call it a step up in development. The whole world in a cave thing could just be one of the things oldbies can talk about... I remember when...
Psst.... I started this thread bro, I think I\'m in a good position to know when it\'s gone off topic.
Giving old concepts new names is good in a way. It means that people have to rediscover what it is they\'re dealing with. Instead of knowing you\'re dealing with a hydra, you\'re dealing with a multiheaded carkaras or whatever. What\'s a multiheaded carkaaras? Be damned if I know! But once I see one, I\'ll think \"oh, it looks like my preconception of a hydra\". Or some such.
So there is a real difference created by simply changing the names of old ideas. It\'s subtle, but there.
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In keeping with the unusual civility of this thread, I will withdraw my off topic comment.
Changing names is not a bad idea and I agree with you that it adds mystery. However, PS is saposed to be a role play game. If everything is new and strange then you will get a lot of out of character questions about the lore of the game. Even if PS had developed an engaging an interesting history that was published prior to the games development, players would still borrow from D&D and LotR. But PS does not have what I would call a well developed history, so most players will find it hard to be in character 100% of the time.
In short you need something for players in character to talk about. Currently that is Ubers, and beer mugs.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
In keeping with the unusual civility of this thread, I will withdraw my off topic comment.
Changing names is not a bad idea and I agree with you that it adds mystery. However, PS is saposed to be a role play game. If everything is new and strange then you will get a lot of out of character questions about the lore of the game. Even if PS had developed an engaging an interesting history that was published prior to the games development, players would still borrow from D&D and LotR. But PS does not have what I would call a well developed history, so most players will find it hard to be in character 100% of the time.
In short you need something for players in character to talk about. Currently that is Ubers, and beer mugs.
I\'ve never played WoW, but my understanding is that the people who play it are already very familiar with its world before they play. It is also my understanding that the game is almost entirely \"out of character\".
I\'m sure there are other examples.
I think we can easily conclude that things being new and strange does not encourage \"OOC\" behaviour more than things which are familiar and cliche.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
I think we can easily conclude that things being new and strange does not encourage \"OOC\" behaviour more than things which are familiar and cliche.
If by \"we\" you mean *you* then I can agree to disagree with you on this point.
I think that OOC vs IC behavior is a complex issue and not linked to one specific item that can be dismissed or proven with a thought experiment.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Originally posted by zanzibar
I think we can easily conclude that things being new and strange does not encourage \"OOC\" behaviour more than things which are familiar and cliche.
If by \"we\" you mean *you* then I can agree to disagree with you on this point.
I think that OOC vs IC behavior is a complex issue and not linked to one specific item that can be dismissed or proven with a thought experiment.
Yeah yeah yeah, but someone said that too many new things would encourage OOC behaviour. I adressed that with a convincing (IMO) counter example. I will not agree to disagree unless you explain your position intelligently.
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I have not played WoW either so I will draw from my EQ days as to why I think the standard issue fantasy world is better than the Dr. Suese one.
When playing a wood elf my character would run from a player who was usually playing a Troll character. When talking to him I refered to him as simply the \"monster\" This activity actually disrupted game play but it was in character and added to my fun.
I was not alone in this kind of light role play. In a strict role play environment I would not associate with a troll at all and he would have crushes my bones to make soup. Or was that the Ogers, no matter. The point is for me this was easy to do and every one arround me unstood what I was doing.
When I tried something similar in PS, I had different results. My fledgling warrior who refered to all mage characters as \"evil\" and dishonoralbe in plane shift I got more ooc explanations about the lore of the game than people playing allong with me.
I had similar experiences in Shadowbane on their role play server. If stuck to bland and colorless conversation I was fine. If I tried to get confrontation based on saposed in game rivalries things got ugly. Well, in SB things were ugly most of the time.
So from my point of view, standard lore is better than unusual lore for a MMORPG.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
I have not played WoW either so I will draw from my EQ days as to why I think the standard issue fantasy world is better than the Dr. Suese one.
When playing a wood elf my character would run from a player who was usually playing a Troll character. When talking to him I refered to him as simply the \"monster\" This activity actually disrupted game play but it was in character and added to my fun.
I was not alone in this kind of light role play. In a strict role play environment I would not associate with a troll at all and he would have crushes my bones to make soup. Or was that the Ogers, no matter. The point is for me this was easy to do and every one arround me unstood what I was doing.
When I tried something similar in PS, I had different results. My fledgling warrior who refered to all mage characters as \"evil\" and dishonoralbe in plane shift I got more ooc explanations about the lore of the game than people playing allong with me.
I had similar experiences in Shadowbane on their role play server. If stuck to bland and colorless conversation I was fine. If I tried to get confrontation based on saposed in game rivalries things got ugly. Well, in SB things were ugly most of the time.
So from my point of view, standard lore is better than unusual lore for a MMORPG.
Your conclusion doesn\'t make any sense. You\'re talking about what seem to be very different communities, and then you\'re making a huge jump to blame those differences on the existence of trolls.
No. It doesn\'t work. You can\'t make this conclusion based on what you\'ve put forward, and you\'re ignoring what others have said previously in this thread and others.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
My gripe with the whole originallity issue is that if you use the stereotypical characters then it is much easier to roleplay your character. I do not think you have a completly original world and have good role play at the same time. These two goals do not mesh well with each other. The PS lore is only 5 or 10 pages of typed text. Draklar could rewrite the lore in a weekend and poof, PS is now a world with Dragons and Orcs and most PS players would call it a step up in development. The whole world in a cave thing could just be one of the things oldbies can talk about... I remember when...
Actually, the PS docs are very long. The books ingame are just a small part of what has been written atleast a year ago now. As elements are added to the game, more of those documents will be unvieled, but it is hard to make sure we can live up to our promises.
There is famaliarity in the \"common\" fanatasy. That is why everquest took what DnD took from what LoTR took from .... But we do not need to limit ourselves to what has been done before.
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I am not sugesting PS be limited to a D&D world. You can add all you want, but from my point of view, PS does not have one 10th of what D&D started with. This of course is my point of view, as a developer you are priviliged to more information. If I am alone in this then I am wrong. If the majority of PS newbies are as lost as I, then I think your role play idea will never really come about.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
I am not sugesting PS be limited to a D&D world. You can add all you want, but from my point of view, PS does not have one 10th of what D&D started with. This of course is my point of view, as a developer you are priviliged to more information. If I am alone in this then I am wrong. If the majority of PS newbies are as lost as I, then I think your role play idea will never really come about.
With D&D, you need to make up the stats, a background, and some art for each creature.
In Planeshift, it\'s a process which is way above my head but includes coding, modelling, and 3D artwork, all of which is complex and requires some pretty nifty education.
And besides, there is a thread where people submit their ideas for new creatures. It\'s HUGE. Ginormous.
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Originally posted by stfrn
There is famaliarity in the \"common\" fanatasy. That is why everquest took what DnD took from what LoTR took from .... But we do not need to limit ourselves to what has been done before.
You believe you are the first ones to create completely new creatures..?
And I agree with derwoodly. Familiarity helps in role-playing, while creatures which build \"it\'s a game\" atmosphere won\'t do well for that.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Your conclusion doesn\'t make any sense. You\'re talking about what seem to be very different communities, and then you\'re making a huge jump to blame those differences on the existence of trolls.
Trolls are just the creatures I used in my example. I have lots of others in my head, but I picked that one mostly because of the title of the thread. And yes SB EQ and PS are very different games in very different parts of development, But they are all fantasy mmorpgs. My point was when I was playing a game with a familiar setting that I was sure all of the others in my group were familiar with it was easy to role play. I personally have found it hard to role play in PS. I am forced to keep to very simple conversation while in character. As you have pointed out in the PS world we are all babies new to the world. Well, that is how my conversation comes out.
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You still aren\'t making much sense. I\'ve gotten into countless conversations which were in character and also very interesting and colourful. Maybe you\'re trying to talk too much about fighting monsters and not enough about matters of philosophy and life?
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In the past my in game hours was a lot higher than it is now. Because my PS game time is a lot lower than most PS players, my impresion of the game could be atypical. It certainly seems atypical of yours, Zanzibar. I find it dificult to just catagorically say that there is absolutly no link between famaliarity and quality of role play as you have done.
Now, if that did not make sense, let me provide another example. In other games I could use an insult like, \"your mother was knoll and your father smelt of elvin wine!\" and everyone would get the meaning. I don\'t even have to know the games backstory. In PS I find it hard to come up with the same level of colorful insult without going outside the bounds of what is saposed to be in the world. I could say \"your mother Uber and your father smelt of the ol\' fallin down, but it is not quite the same, at least I don\'t think it is.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
In the past my in game hours was a lot higher than it is now. Because my PS game time is a lot lower than most PS players, my impresion of the game could be atypical. It certainly seems atypical of yours, Zanzibar. I find it dificult to just catagorically say that there is absolutly no link between famaliarity and quality of role play as you have done.
Now, if that did not make sense, let me provide another example. In other games I could use an insult like, \"your mother was knoll and your father smelt of elvin wine!\" and everyone would get the meaning. I don\'t even have to know the games backstory. In PS I find it hard to come up with the same level of colorful insult without going outside the bounds of what is saposed to be in the world. I could say \"your mother Uber and your father smelt of the ol\' fallin down, but it is not quite the same, at least I don\'t think it is.
\"May your blade chip and shatter!\"
That\'s an insult from another source. Does it not work in PS?
Or how about this one...
\"Anyone smell \'burnt cat\'?\" I said this after a fenki returned from the death realm, having recently been killed by a fire spell. I actually got into a lot of trouble with this one. There\'s \"Rocks for brains!\", or \"Your mother was a kran/dwarf!\". To a dwarf, you could acuse him of having an ulbernaught\'s baby on his chin, or you comment on the quality of his wares.
And why does it have to be elven wine? And why am I still awake? Can anyone tell me what guild I supposedly infiltrated? If I\'m apparently doing things in game without knowing it, there could be a problem.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
\"May your blade chip and shatter!\"
That\'s an insult from another source. Does it not work in PS?
That\'s not an insult but a bad-wishing. Just like \"May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown\" isn\'t a compliment.
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All very nice insults.
My point is that for ME it is harder to come up with this kind of role play without the Lord of the Ring style world to fall back on. It just takes me more time. Even your \"cat\" comment is questionable as in caracter if PS does not have \"cats\" you would be safer with a burnt hair comment. Maybe...
\"The only thing that smells worse than a wet Fenki is a burnt one!\"
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Originally posted by Draklar
Originally posted by zanzibar
\"May your blade chip and shatter!\"
That\'s an insult from another source. Does it not work in PS?
That\'s not an insult but a bad-wishing. Just like \"May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown\" isn\'t a compliment.
No, it\'s an insult.
Originally posted by derwoodly
All very nice insults.
My point is that for ME it is harder to come up with this kind of role play without the Lord of the Ring style world to fall back on. It just takes me more time. Even your \"cat\" comment is questionable as in caracter if PS does not have \"cats\" you would be safer with a burnt hair comment. Maybe...
\"The only thing that smells worse than a wet Fenki is a burnt one!\"
Planeshift has bears, so I don\'t feel guilty about mentioning cats. As far as your difficulty with being creative, I think its your own creativity which is the problem. Expand your horizons. Force yourself to work with new ideas and situations.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Planeshift has bears, so I don\'t feel guilty about mentioning cats. As far as your difficulty with being creative, I think its your own creativity which is the problem. Expand your horizons. Force yourself to work with new ideas and situations.
Either you confuse a long-tailed rodent with a large omnivorous mammal, or apparently I am missing something...
And some may actually consider cats to be non-existant in the Yliakum. the differences in opinion prove derwoodly\'s point, zanzibar.
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Originally posted by Draklar
Originally posted by zanzibar
Planeshift has bears, so I don\'t feel guilty about mentioning cats. As far as your difficulty with being creative, I think its your own creativity which is the problem. Expand your horizons. Force yourself to work with new ideas and situations.
Either you confuse a long-tailed rodent with a large omnivorous mammal, or apparently I am missing something...
And some may actually consider cats to be non-existant in the Yliakum. the differences in opinion prove derwoodly\'s point, zanzibar.
There are bears in Planeshift. They might be nothing like real life bears, and they may merely be a folk tale, but they\'re there.
At the library, you can read the books on the shelves. One of those books mentions bears.
spelling corrected
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Bah, my character can\'t read so I don\'t frequent that place... But as a hunter he should know that :P
...Which would be another argument against the originality.
Either way, that\'s a dodgy reason. Because if you believe cats exist just because of the bears, then why not every single of the other animals living on Earth?
And we know it isn\'t so, as there are no horses.
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*Philosophy moment!*
Plato\'s philosophy of \"The Cave\".
Imagine you\'re in a cave, facing a huge wall. You are unable to turn left or right or turn around, and so must stare at that wall alone. Behind you is a fire, as bright as can be. Between you and the fire is a tree. The fire\'s light causes the tree to cast a shadow on the wall before you. You call the shadow a \"tree\" because it is all you know, even though the true tree exists just behind you.
Now, take our cave... We have Enkidukai, who resemble cats. Yet we do not know that the ears, fur, and tails even do resemble a cat, since we do not know what a true cat is. Therefore, the cats we think of may be entirely different from the Upper Realm cats. Perhaps what we call a cat is, to the Upper Realm, a goat. Or perhaps we have it right. How can we tell? We can\'t.
And so, in theory, we can add anything to Planeshift and call it anything we\'d like, since we are our own seperate world, uninfluenced by any Upper Realm or outer source.
I have no idea what I just said, but I felt like I needed to say it. Perhaps someone out there needs it... like, maybe they forgot to study for a Philosophy test or something and it will help in some obscure way.
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hmmm it\'s the language issue.
As we don\'t know things like cats and cows and what not in Yliakum names must have evolved differently. Ofcourse in reality I don\'t see them speaking english so depends how far you want to go I guess, but think you can\'t have everyone learn \"Yliakums\" before one can play ;)
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I was going to add more of my rantings but then I found this
http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=19017&boardid=13&styleid=3
The thread deterates rather quickly, but the fist part is on topic with this one.
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:O That\'s a nice thread over there, and nice conclusions in it.
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This is just pure speculation on my part, but I think Plane Shift needs more players like Bnm85. His las post was in october so it would seem he has lost interest. His first post was very impresive list of gripes.
http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=17693&boardid=13
As you may have noticed, I would be perfectly happy if PS was a EQ clone with the free price tag. The old version, not the new one. I guess I am just too much of a traditionalist to see how cool living hollow cone is.
By the looks of it there are only a dozzen or so people on the board that feel as I do, so I am in the minority. However, I don\'t know who is really a big fan of the whole cone world thing. Talad is one for sure, but who else really likes it?
[Edit: in the past I think I have denied that I would want PS to be an EQ clone, so let me elaborate, I think PS should be set in an EQ like world, the game mechanics can and should be much different]
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Can the characters in the game know about Dragons, Trolls, Fairies, etc... without them having to actually exist in the game though? I mean, in real life we know about these things, yet they don\'t exist in real life. And since the game already has elves and dwarves, why not legends about mythical dragons and such?
Besides, Dragon Council is a fairly prominent guild... so characters must know about dragons.
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Originally posted by ylikone
Can the characters in the game know about Dragons, Trolls, Fairies, etc... without them having to actually exist in the game though? I mean, in real life we know about these things, yet they don\'t exist in real life. And since the game already has elves and dwarves, why not legends about mythical dragons and such?
Besides, Dragon Council is a fairly prominent guild... so characters must know about dragons.
The Dragon Council named themselves under protest of Game Masters. They\'ve had their name changed before, but for some reason they got their old one back.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by ylikone
Besides, Dragon Council is a fairly prominent guild... so characters must know about dragons.
The Dragon Council named themselves under protest of Game Masters. They\'ve had their name changed before, but for some reason they got their old one back.
Hmmm... I gues the Dragon Council must have some very power influences within their ranks? Do GM\'s not have the power to just rename them again?
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I don\'t think it\'s worth the argument all over again. More over, the Dragon Council doesn\'t claim to have seen dragons in Yliakum, but in planes outside - so there isn\'t really an issue big enough to bother anyone.
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Originally posted by ylikone
I gues the Dragon Council must have some very power influences within their ranks?
No.
Originally posted by ylikone
Do GM\'s not have the power to just rename them again?
They have the power.
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I goota put in a \"for\" argument;
The village eldar always told stories of far off lands, and strage beasts. Of huge flying lizards, and serpants that could turn you to stone with a glance, and men, tall as trees, and built like rocks!
Through these stories, players would learn what a dragon or an ogre or a bassilisk lookks like...
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Originally posted by Falzaek
I goota put in a \"for\" argument;
The village eldar always told stories of far off lands, and strage beasts. Of huge flying lizards, and serpants that could turn you to stone with a glance, and men, tall as trees, and built like rocks!
Through these stories, players would learn what a dragon or an ogre or a bassilisk lookks like...
I agree. I think it\'s fine and dandy to have myths about typical mythological creatures.
But for creatures which you actually encounter in game, I think that typical creatures should be used sparingly.
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Hey if you wanted to add trolls you can give them a funny accent like Warcraft did...Lol Jamaican trolls....That was priceless.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
\"Originality\" isn\'t a good enough reason to stay away from typical mythological creatures.
[...]
And that\'s what I think the real benefit is. Colour, imagination, player interaction, newness, maybe even surprise and wonder. It\'s not just to be different - it\'s to create a better experience for people playing the game.
I think the latter are consequences to the previous :P
Anyway, if someone would pronounce the word \"dragon\" in Yliakum, the common denizen would simply blink its eyes in ignorance.
\"Dragon\"\'s an abstract word in this world. Speaking about it in Yliakum is like speaking about clackers to an orc.
Here\'s an example: Sangwa knows a bit about the Dragon\'s Council story, but he simply thinks the dragon part is imagined, symbolic, or an illusion of a crazed mind. He had never heard about dragons before, since he was born in Yliakum.
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Originally posted by Sangwa
Anyway, if someone would pronounce the word \"dragon\" in Yliakum, the common denizen would simply blink its eyes in ignorance.
\"Dragon\"\'s an abstract word in this world. Speaking about it in Yliakum is like speaking about clackers to an orc.
Here\'s an example: Sangwa knows a bit about the Dragon\'s Council story, but he simply thinks the dragon part is imagined, symbolic, or an illusion of a crazed mind. He had never heard about dragons before, since he was born in Yliakum.
\"Mwahahahaaa! I\'ll show you all the true meaning of the word dragon!\"
/me starts building a cow-sized dragon on hydlaa plaza out of cookie dough and carrots
\"Yeshhh, this is coming along nicely. Fear teh power of my creation!\"
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/me starts to scrape part of the cookie dough with a fork and mutters:
\"This means something... this is important...\"
XD
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Originally posted by Sangwa
Originally posted by zanzibar
\"Originality\" isn\'t a good enough reason to stay away from typical mythological creatures.
[...]
And that\'s what I think the real benefit is. Colour, imagination, player interaction, newness, maybe even surprise and wonder. It\'s not just to be different - it\'s to create a better experience for people playing the game.
I think the latter are consequences to the previous :P
No. Not at all. You are wrong.
You can be original, but still suck.
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That means they were original and didn\'t suck.
I\'m just saying that the stuff you said was good was actually a result of their well applied originality...
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Originally posted by Sangwa
That means they were original and didn\'t suck.
I\'m just saying that the stuff you said was good was actually a result of their well applied originality...
You don\'t get it. The language people use suggests that planeshift tries to be different for the sake of being original. The \"stuff that was actually good\" is not merely a result of originality, but (as you put it) \"well applied originality\" which is not the same thing. What you are saying now is not the message of what you were saying before, intent aside.
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Ah! It was a consequence of originality anyway (even if the \"well applied\" part wasn\'t there)! So I wasn\'t too far off in the first place.
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Originally posted by Sangwa
Ah! It was a consequence of originality anyway (even if the \"well applied\" part wasn\'t there)! So I wasn\'t too far off in the first place.
You said in no uncertain terms, \"the latter are consequences [of originality]\". This is not true. It is entirely possibly to be original and boring at the same time. My point is that originality for its own sake isn\'t good enough.
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*blinks*
Ok... Then let me rephrase it:
\"Originality\" isn\'t a good enough reason to stay away from typical mythological creatures.
[...]
And that\'s what I think the real benefit is. Colour, imagination, player interaction, newness, maybe even surprise and wonder. It\'s not just to be different - it\'s to create a better experience for people playing the game.
I think the latter are consequences of a successful previous.
It might have been a good reason as well, if those who created the game actually had that in mind when choosing to be original :P Or... successfully original. :P (though I doubt people would choose to have sucky originality)
PS:
You said in no uncertain terms
I said \"I think...\" That means I did think it was that way, but that I wasn\'t as certain as to actually say \"I\'m sure...\" xD
I guess I was right not to be completly certain, since my thought actually needed development. At least from your perspective.
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Well, alright then! now I understand.
When ever I am in a bind and can not remember if a certain item does or does not exist in the world of PS then all I have to do is put the word \'mythilogical\' in front of the item.
Barkeep: \" How ya like today\'s brew of the \'ol fallin down\'!
Me: \"dis gret, last time I felt this way, I ust got kicked in da head by a me mythicological mule\"!