PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: goland on December 31, 2005, 08:46:58 pm
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Is there such a thing as sinning in the planeshift world? If so, do the gods judge you based on your sins?
I have an idea, which I couldn\'t find mentioned previously doing a quick search.
Say if you die fighting valiantly against a monster you are flagged a non-sinner and will spawn at the normal location in the death realm which normally takes 2 or 3 minutes to traverse.
If you die by committing suicide you should be marked as a sinner and spawn at a point in the death realm which takes longer or is more difficult to get through.
If you die by dueling another player then you could also be considered a sinner for the act of malice. You could spawn in the same place as suicide-ers or maybe a different place.
This all depends of course on the religion in the planeshift world and what roles the gods play. In most religions there is some sort of judgement upon death and bad people usually get punished while good people get rewarded. This idea would facilitate that.
It would also discourage people from acting OOC and suiciding for a shortcut to and from Ojadeva. If the \'sinner path\' takes longer to travel than oja road then people would be more likely to act more realistically and travel the living world path rather than willingly sacrificing their life.
What does everyone think?
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very good idea
(clap clap clap)
that would be so cool :)
maybe doing dark magic would also be sinning?
and also mabe if you r \'good\' (helping people giving 2 NPCs) you might end up in an even closer place.
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Well, there are quite a few religions in Yliakum ;) Laanx and Talad are different deities, with different judgments. The Death Realm will also be populated with dark gods in the future, I believe, so I think \"sinning\" works only in a monotheistic setting - otherwise there\'s no real way to determine such a thing, in my opinion. I think in the future having the /die command spawn people in a different location is a good idea :) Definitely prevent quicker travel - but not at this time, when many people use /die to get unstuck. It\'s too early to implement DR \"punishments,\" I think. Using dark magic isn\'t sinning - it\'s just another magic way available to anyone who prefers the shadows. We have no super-good deities.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Using dark magic isn\'t sinning - it\'s just another magic way available to anyone who prefers the shadows. We have no super-good deities.
It\'s bringing inhabitants of Death Realm back to \"life\"... I suppose someone keeping control over that place might be somewhat pissed off.
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Well, in the case of dieties with different ideals there could be a different spawn depending on which diety you appease. It would be a variation of sinning vs non-sinning.
Dieties who are appeased by war, violence, and pain would want to promote such things by making people suffer.
Peacemaking dieties would want people to live and enjoy life and get back to the life realm quickly.
I don\'t believe sinning works with only monotheism. In most any theistic religion, if you get on the bad side of certain gods then you will suffer in certain ways. It\'s the main mechanism for morals.
Is there an in depth explanation of the dieties of the planeshift world? A definition of some kind of what is considered pious to which superior beings?
I agree that it couldn\'t be done at this time.
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i mean dark magic like necromancy (animating dead), summoning demons, and such things, not doing somthing like casting weakness or casting some spell from the dark way.
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Originally posted by goland
Dieties who are appeased by war, violence, and pain would want to promote such things by making people suffer.
Or bring the befallen to the halls where they would be served mead... And where each day there would be a battle after which the dead would respawn and feast until late night? :P
Zra\'al: Summoning dead and demons belongs to the Dark Way.
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We unfortunately do not have enough material from the settings to determine what might appease deities and what may make them strike out. Laanx is a finicky thing alone ;) You can try reading through the history posted on the main site and try to determine such things, but the story and deities themselves are all fleshed out already to a much greater degree, behind the scenes. Thus making such a topic rather hard to discuss, heh.
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sorry then Draklar, time 4 a connfession i haven\'t actually played the game yet, but summoning demons to do your bidding is a really good high up there expensive spell isint it? and that would be kind of bad, i dunno i am just talking rubbish arent i.
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They\'re not in the game for now, you can find informations on it from the Ways descriptions on the website:
\"Some spells enables the control of horrific creatures, such as undead, demons, spirits.\"
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Hm, I read over the creation story completely. I see what you mean about Laanx. Talad sounds like a guy you could sit down and have a beer with though.
Both dieties seem to want their own followers to prosper which would indicate that they should all be following a standard set of morals if they wish to appease their god.
Being able to choose which diety to worship seems like something that will almost definately have to be built into the game eventually. If it\'s not planned then, personally, I think it should be.
Judgement would be complex and would depend upon what diety you are under the jurisdiction of when you die.
With that said, the current areas we can travel in the world are ruled by Talad, no? So if we are under his jurisdiction then his rules would be the law of the land. These rules are hardly touched upon in the creation story.
To add realism, I would assume that the races will know of folklore or mythology pertaining to their god, otherwise, how will they worship them? I can understand keeping plotlines secretive, but a basic mythology describing how Talad rules would allow for much stronger IC play.
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Yes, it needs to be added eventually. And the pantheon expanded in general. For now majority of characters behave as if they were atheists or something..
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It would be a horrible thing if the game started getting ethnocentric and nonrelativist. (Is that PC enough for everyone?)
Suicide a sin? It depends on who you ask, and it depends on why it happened. The Massada? The Alamo?
Besides, in Judiasm \"Sin\" simply means apartness from God. There are many religions that believe in universal salvation anyway.
I just really don\'t like the idea or sound of this. I think it would lead to bad things.
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\"I just really don\'t like the idea or sound of this. I think it would lead to bad things.\" Quote from Zanzibar
So sin would lead to \"sin\"?
:D
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Originally posted by Kythag
\"I just really don\'t like the idea or sound of this. I think it would lead to bad things.\" Quote from Zanzibar
So sin would lead to \"sin\"?
:D
No, it would lead to an ethnocentric and nonrelativist mentality expressed through the game\'s mechanics.
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The smiley meant I was joking. jeez
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Originally posted by Kythag
The smiley meant I was joking. jeez
Jokes should be funny. *smiley wink*
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For thoughs of you like me did not no whot they ment. :D
Ethnocentrism is a nearly universal syndrome of attitudes and behaviors.
Behaviors associated with ethnocentrism include cooperation with members of the
in-group, but not out-groups. We show that ethnocentric behavior can emerge from
a simple evolutionary model of local competition between individuals.
Nonrelativist ethical standards for goal setting in psychotherapy.
:D :)) 8) :) ;)
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...Let\'s try to put some sense into this discussion now.
If you want to implement the sin bit, don\'t think of it as sins, but rather rational consequences.
People should meet afterlife dependant on how they behaved during their stay in the realm of the alive.
For example a brave warrior should join some place where he could battle (and likewise, warrior who died as a coward would be punished by not reaching such place)
Crystal Way mages who didn\'t kill much would go to bright part of Death Realm (and those who killed a bit too much would be punished by not entering such place).
Murderers could reach a really dark part of the Death Realm, which would be another form of punishment.
And so on.
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Originally posted by r.guppy
For thoughs of you like me did not no whot they ment. :D
Ethnocentrism is a nearly universal syndrome of attitudes and behaviors.
Behaviors associated with ethnocentrism include cooperation with members of the
in-group, but not out-groups. We show that ethnocentric behavior can emerge from
a simple evolutionary model of local competition between individuals.
Nonrelativist ethical standards for goal setting in psychotherapy.
:D :)) 8) :) ;)
See? He didn\'t leave, just like I said. No worries. (?)
Ethnocentrism means seeing all things in terms of only yourself and your own culture; declaring your own experiences as universal; etc. If I said \"Music\" means only mozart, jazz, and the beatles, then I\'m taking a rather ethnocentric approach because I\'m only looking at one culture but I\'m thinking as if that culture necessarily reflects all cultures.
Ethnocentrism means ignoring other cultures while considering your own culture to be universal.
Nonrelativist means the opposite of relativist. Relativism means that different people have different moral codes and ethical systems, but no one is necessarily wrong.
Originally posted by Draklar
...Let\'s try to put some sense into this discussion now.
If you want to implement the sin bit, don\'t think of it as sins, but rather rational consequences.
People should meet afterlife dependant on how they behaved during their stay in the realm of the alive.
For example a brave warrior should join some place where he could battle (and likewise, warrior who died as a coward would be punished by not reaching such place)
Crystal Way mages who didn\'t kill much would go to bright part of Death Realm (and those who killed a bit too much would be punished by not entering such place).
Murderers could reach a really dark part of the Death Realm, which would be another form of punishment.
And so on.
I believe in rational consequences, but through RP. I think it would be hard to decide who is a brave warrior and who is a murderer. If I send someone else to do murders for me, am I not a murderer? But how would the game mechanis pick up on it?
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Originally posted by zanzibar
See? He didn\'t leave, just like I said. No worries. (?)
Ethnocentrism means seeing all things in terms of only yourself and your own culture; declaring your own experiences as universal; etc. If I said \"Music\" means only mozart, jazz, and the beatles, then I\'m taking a rather ethnocentric approach because I\'m only looking at one culture but I\'m thinking as if that culture necessarily reflects all cultures.
Ethnocentrism means ignoring other cultures while considering your own culture to be universal.
Both Jorden and Janner have been deleted in game, don\'t expect them to come back.
Your definition sounds like a combination of egocentric and ethnocentric.
And just to get back on topic............
Well, there are quite a few religions in Yliakum ;) Laanx and Talad are different deities, with different judgments. The Death Realm will also be populated with dark gods in the future, I believe, so I think \"sinning\" works only in a monotheistic setting - otherwise there\'s no real way to determine such a thing, in my opinion.
I agree; what would happen to the atheists???
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Originally posted by zanzibar
I believe in rational consequences, but through RP. I think it would be hard to decide who is a brave warrior and who is a murderer.
For a warrior killing in guildwars, fighting monsters, finished by dying during fight. For a murderer killing a lot of other characters outside of guildwars.
Originally posted by zanzibar
If I send someone else to do murders for me, am I not a murderer? But how would the game mechanis pick up on it?
You seem to miss the point Yliakum\'s gods aren\'t all-powerful and all-knowing. If someone dies that might be noticable event, if someone talks rather not.
I agree; what would happen to the atheists???
Atheists appeared because of the thought that there\'s no proof of god\'s existance. In Yliakum there were such proves, so why on Earth would there be any atheists? And besides, it\'s not the age of enlightenment that Planeshift takes place in.
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It\'s all up to DR god. When you die, he decide what to do with you. I don\'t think he would care what you was doing before, unless he have some kind of pact with other gods.
But then what if a person was atheist.
Request of this topic is very similiar to the alignment one. You never know what conider a sin and it\'s subiective.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
But then what if a person was atheist.
Why do I even bother? :|
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No idea. Maybe because you care.
I\'m just trying to point out that all cases should have answers. Nothing more.
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I made the answer in post just before yours.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
I\'m just trying to point out that all cases should have answers. Nothing more.
Originally posted by Draklar
Atheists appeared because of the thought that there\'s no proof of god\'s existance. In Yliakum there were such proves, so why on Earth would there be any atheists? And besides, it\'s not the age of enlightenment that Planeshift takes place in.
Just to point out the truth in the Draklars\'s post and I think it makes sense. In Yliakum we do know that gods exists, there is no proof needed. People have seen Talad on the Plaza and other places ;)
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By Pip
I agree; what would happen to the atheists???
But there is. look close to your creation option, there is a atheist option.
:D
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Sorry Draklar, i was writing my post way too long and haven\'t seen your yet.
Anyway, i mean\'t somethink else by atheist. I shouldn\'t have used that term..... I did probably because there is that option in char creation.
What if someone don\'t want to serve any of the gods? That person know of their existance, but refuse to share their law.
With this topic idea, what if that person die? By which god law it will be decided what was sin and what wasn\'t ?
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Well there wouldn\'t be such problem if as I said, life after death would resamble life before it. Brave warriors would automatically be rewarded by a warrior-related god and so on.
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Yer, but then who can be considered brave warrior and who don\'t. Its same thing as with aligments, it all depends from a point of viev. I really don\'t know how you can build proper system for 100% of people.
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Originally posted by Draklar
For a warrior killing in guildwars, fighting monsters, finished by dying during fight.
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Ok, then you will have to define really great amount of differet profesions: architects, miners, priests, politics, crafters and so with no end. Everybody will be put in different places of DR, maybe also treated different in it.
More, sometimes the differences beatwen one profesion and another is so weak, that one person will say warrior and another will say barbarian. At very close examination (and you will need it if you want this idea to see in game) you will realize it is so complex that it will take years to complete and another few to implement. Do we really need it?
Unless you are trying to create some crappy system, a group of false dogmas which will rule of someones fate. Dogmas like the one that earth is flat.
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The discussion of what would be punishable and what isn\'t would all depend on what the gods think should be. This should be chosen by the creators of the game. There is no reason the game needs to be PC. The game has a group of gods that can be defined and these gods can feel certain ways about certain things. It\'s all up to the designers of the game.
It\'s not ethnocentric for a defined set of gods that are known to exist to act and react to things in a certain way. I was giving examples in my original posts, but like I said previously, it all depends on how the gods are defined by the devs.
As Karyuu said, this stuff has been chosen to be kept a secret. Until more information about the planeshift gods is released, this discussion will be, for the most part, speculation. I wasn\'t aware of the secrecy of the mythology behind the gods when I started this thread.
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Originally posted by Pip
Originally posted by zanzibar
See? He didn\'t leave, just like I said. No worries. (?)
Ethnocentrism means seeing all things in terms of only yourself and your own culture; declaring your own experiences as universal; etc. If I said \"Music\" means only mozart, jazz, and the beatles, then I\'m taking a rather ethnocentric approach because I\'m only looking at one culture but I\'m thinking as if that culture necessarily reflects all cultures.
Ethnocentrism means ignoring other cultures while considering your own culture to be universal.
Both Jorden and Janner have been deleted in game, don\'t expect them to come back.
Your definition sounds like a combination of egocentric and ethnocentric.
To generalize:
Ethnocentric = Culture
Egocentric = Personal gain
People keep saying they\'re leaving, and they keep coming back. I don\'t know what the big deal is, it doesn\'t seem like a big deal to me.
Originally posted by Draklar
Originally posted by zanzibar
I believe in rational consequences, but through RP. I think it would be hard to decide who is a brave warrior and who is a murderer.
For a warrior killing in guildwars, fighting monsters, finished by dying during fight. For a murderer killing a lot of other characters outside of guildwars.
Again, there\'s more to it than that. Guildwars are hardly a good measure of the intentions behind an instance of PVP.
Originally posted by zanzibar
If I send someone else to do murders for me, am I not a murderer? But how would the game mechanis pick up on it?
You seem to miss the point Yliakum\'s gods aren\'t all-powerful and all-knowing. If someone dies that might be noticable event, if someone talks rather not.
You can\'t have it both ways.
On Atheism in Planeshift:
There\'s still a variety with regards to how people view \"the gods\" of planeshift. Are the Gods moral? Do they define morality? Do they interfere in mortal affairs? Should interfere in mortal awares? Are they worthy of worship? Are they worthy of disdain? There are many attitudes people can take to the established dieties. So while atheism might not be an option as it exists in real life society, there are still different ways to think of the same Gods, whatever the arbitrary truth of the matter happens to be.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
Ok, then you will have to define really great amount of differet profesions: architects, miners, priests, politics, crafters and so with no end. Everybody will be put in different places of DR, maybe also treated different in it.
I don\'t see why most of those professions shouldn\'t be put into \"normal\" part of Death Realm.
Originally posted by zanzibar
Again, there\'s more to it than that. Guildwars are hardly a good measure of the intentions behind an instance of PVP.
Not all-powerful and not all-knowing. I don\'t think it\'s that hard to understand, is it? How many gods in politheistic religions had the power of knowing man\'s intentions?