PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Waylander on January 18, 2006, 01:40:26 am
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I think you should be able to level up senses...
I mean imagine having amazing hearing (/say hear cylinder expands)
Yeah, I\'m only really posting this because I could really use it at the moment, but still would be useful no?
More health from foods depending on your taste :P
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Then you have to write an in-depth explanation of how those senses would work :P I know that an Enkidukai tracking ability has been proposed/discussed before.
The more you could write in your beginning post, the better everyone else will feel.
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Heh, I writ it in frustration. Hence the lack of a fully developped idea.
I shall finish it up later.
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I dont see how it could be useful. If I remember correctly the five senses are touch, hearing, sight, speach, and smell. The only senses that would/could have any impact on something are hearing (depending on how you could use it in game), sight, and smell (also depending on how you could use it). So basically the only SURE thing it can be used to raise is sight. And the problem with that is that those with slower comps would need to have shorter vision. Now you could use it to pick out hard to see things near you, like someone hiding in the shadows. So unless you can come up with some good ideas then I dont see a reason to implement it.
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And how do you train in sight, anyway? You can train yourself in pattern-seeking, tracking, etc., but sight itself? Same with hearing - and most of these, if ever \"trained\" in real life, are trained from a very early age as far as I know.
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Hearing can be trained actualy...interesting stuff
Either way, it would be the same as training endurance and such...you can\'t really train intelligence in real life either...knowledge? yes intelligence not unless you are below...15 I think it is
Again, this was writ in frustration, feel free to make a discussion about it though
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Originally posted by Karyuu
And how do you train in sight, anyway? You can train yourself in pattern-seeking, tracking, etc., but sight itself? Same with hearing - and most of these, if ever \"trained\" in real life, are trained from a very early age as far as I know.
Thats true. Even though some prograims claim they can help you raise those senses (you know the ones that cost a lot of money and look EXTREMELY bogus) I know that they dont work, you know that they dont work, most people know that they dont work.
You better have a really good idea to change our minds.
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I will probably not post in this thread again...but all the same,
Hearing can be trained in a sense, you can learn to block out sounds a concentrate on one or two.
Sight can not be trained, it relies on the actual construction of your eyeballs
Smell, I highly doubt this can be training, but I am not sure
Touch, depends on the amount of nerve endings and so can not be trained (Atleast to my knowledge)
Taste, I have no idea, though I doubt it
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But, all the same..
Intelligence: can not be trained
Will: Can not be trained
Charisma: Can not be trained much; it depends a lot on your looks and you can\'t learn to be as good looking as Jessica Alba now can you?
Strength: Can be trained, but not through knowledge, it should take practice
Endurance: Same as strength
Agility: Just try training this, it is very hard especialy after the age of 15.
And so; it seems a lot of the training available isn\'t quite sensible either
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Originally posted by Waylander
Intelligence: can not be trained
Can too :> If you think of intelligence as \"the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.\"
Will: Can not be trained
Definitely can, speaking from personal experience :P
Charisma: Can not be trained much; it depends a lot on your looks and you can\'t learn to be as good looking as Jessica Alba now can you?
You can be taught to be magnetic and charming - it concentrates on a deep understanding of behavior and its manipulation.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Originally posted by Waylander
Intelligence: can not be trained
Can too :> If you think of intelligence as \"the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.\"
Intelligence, along with anything in the mind, can not be trained in any successful way once the person hits the age of 15...only change is how you use it (i.e.: organization, specialization)
Will: Can not be trained
Definitely can, speaking from personal experience :P
I disagree, it can be gained, but not trained, you can not be taught to be more willful, you must change it yourself.
Charisma: Can not be trained much; it depends a lot on your looks and you can\'t learn to be as good looking as Jessica Alba now can you?
You can be taught to be magnetic and charming - it concentrates on a deep understanding of behavior and its manipulation.
Aye, but it is also very dependent on looks, it can be trained to a certain degree but, past that, looks are your only chance and those can\'t be imporved overly
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I don\'t think Charisma should even be in the game. I think that a naturalistic approach should be taken to it; If the player is charismatic and a good leader, then the character will be charismatic and a good leader.
Anyway, in Daggerfall, a big part of the game is hearing. Hearing if you\'re being followed, hearing what exactly is following you -- is it footsteps, the clashing of armour, the panting of a bear or were creature? -- and you could get a skill which increased the range and detail of the sound you heard.
This would be hard to do in planeshift, because the creatures are slow, it takes effort to make one chase you, and they always spawn in the same spot.
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I have always thought of Charasima as a combination of looks and Charm.
Anyways, My personal preference is to keep the five stats as they are. Magic and spells can be used to increase sight, hearing, smell or what not.
Training something like hearing is too general of an ability to just train. You could train your ears for tone, or to recognise certain sounds, but just training them to work better does not sound \"realistic\". Of cource it is a game and you just do it because it is fun.
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in my opinion, 3 sences can be trained..they use a guess and check type training.
SMELL: smell can be trained by smelling a certain thing, and guessing what it is. You would eventually get better at telling what smell goes with what thing.
TASTE: taste can be trained by tasting something without knowing what it is,guess what it is, and eventually you will know the same taste all the time.
HEARING: listen to natural sounds and focus on the sound of nature not civilization. eventually your sences will be more aware and you will hear better.
these examples are in a simple form, there are probably alot more detailed versions to write these but im a bit tired and cant think much right now.
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To summarize Waylander\'s post, he doubt a sense can be trained if it depends on actual construction of the organ. So some senses can be trained and others not. For attributes, intelligence and will cannot, but charisma and strength can, for example.
Karyuu is not agree for some things. Hellios details how several senses can be trained.
In a nutshell (in real life), all senses depend on your body constitution, as if you have eyeballs to see, you have also ears to hear, etc. You cannot raise your sense beyond what is allowed by your physical constitution: if you have destroyed a part of your ears hearing too loud music for example. If you are myopic, you can gain at most about +0.5 dioptre by excercising your eyes, but that is all, either you are at -1 dioptre or -7 dioptre.
But, even if you cannot improve your senses, you can train them to be more accurate, to use them better. The real truth about this is that an unused (or misused) sense becomes lazy.
So, you can train your hearing to recognize and isolate particular sounds (ex. a man who is an Oreille d\'Or in a submarine (sorry, I haven\'t found the english term)). At home, you can also do blind tests about smells and tastes (or sounds), with small pots containing spices, flowers, anything. Do it regularly with various scents and parfumes, and you will note that your smell has been trained.
For mental and physical attributes, it should be the same. After your body has finished to built itself (when you\'re about 15 years old perhaps), connexions in the brain, skeletton, etc. will not change. So you cannot improve them but you can trained them (body building, training to solve riddles and crosswords, learn to look nice and trustful, etc.)
Now, PS is an imaginary world, so limitations are the ones we (or more likely developpers) impose. If they want all senses to be trainable, they can implement it.
A realistic way to implement it (imho) would be to separate the attribute (your physical and mental constitutions, diminished by wounds and injuries) from the skills.
For example, an Oreille d\'Or has a quite good hearing, but has developped a lot \"recognize sea sounds\" and \"distinguish sounds\" skills.
Also, a swindler may have a quite good Charisma, but has a big score in \"smooth talk\" skill.
Then, the test would be done on (natural_talent + relevant_skill). Il would be much more subtle and full of nuances ...
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I don\'t know if I like the idea or not yet, but I can still join the discussion. Why do people insist on finding a good way to train them? Couldn\'t this be implemented as something you choose at character creation and then have to live with? In many other games, that\'s how it works with stats and that never seemed strange, did it?
As for how to use different sense. I know good smelling and tasting would both be a bonus for a cook. :)
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Originally posted by Father Sengus
I don\'t know if I like the idea or not yet, but I can still join the discussion. Why do people insist on finding a good way to train them? Couldn\'t this be implemented as something you choose at character creation and then have to live with? In many other games, that\'s how it works with stats and that never seemed strange, did it?
As for how to use different sense. I know good smelling and tasting would both be a bonus for a cook. :)
Personally, I don\'t think training should be in the game at all. If you use something, you become better at it. The PP/training system as it exists now is just unrealisitic.
Correcting spelling while drunk is a pain in the you know what.
But from what people tell me, the whole system is going to be replaced within the next year anyway so it\'s a null point.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Personally, I don\'t think training should be in the game at all. If you use something, you become better at it. The PP/training system as it exists now is just unrealisitic.
Not completely unrealistic, I believe the idea behind it is that you need to be trained to get so good and then past that, you need to practice at it.
Not the best way to do it but, better than many.
But from what people tell me, the whole system is going to be replaced within the next year anyway so it\'s a null point.
Yeah, I heard that same, let\'s hope it\'s true
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\"Intelligence: can not be trained\"
You can acctaly trained intelligence. Such as becoming better in math or senices. You can train your listing skills by being able to learn how to lisnt.
You can become smater by reading a book to learn something new.
This is the what they mean by intelligence in this game. The aiblty to learn.
If they minte our IQ sroces is a deffent thing.
Intelligence can have many different maings. An IQ test is not relly a good way to masure intelligence.
Here a list of things that could mean Intelligence.
You could be intellient in math.
Music.
Reading
Writing
Since
Intelligence could mean many things.
You can improve your intelligence through your learning of new things.
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Until the age of 15 the brain is in tranformation, after this it stay pretty much the same.
You are born with a certain intelligence and as you grow to 15 the brain will adapt to the fields that you use, for example, grow up being hunted and your reaction time and such will be great.
You can become more knowledgable, but not intelligent.
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Originally posted by Waylander
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Until the age of 15 the brain is in tranformation, after this it stay pretty much the same.
From personal experience, I can tell you that\'s not right. Since I was 15, my various kinds of intelligence have gone up and down.
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Insignificantly;
This is a scientific fact.
Any change has come through you focusing on different aspects
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Intelligence can be trained. I see \"Intelligence\" as a synonym for Wisdom, which comes from a combination and application of knowledge and experience. Both are easily trained. Reading a book on philosophy, or just about anything can increase knowledge. Experience comes from making desicions, as we do on a day-do-day basis, and learning from the good ones and the bad ones. So:
Intelligence = Wisdom.
Wisdom = Experience + Knowledge.
Experience and Knowledge are both trainable.
Wisdom is based on Knowledge and Experience, and therefor also trainable.
Intelligence is the same thing as Wisdom, ans therfor since Wisdom is trainable, Intelligence is also trainable.
Therfore, I conclude that Intelligence is a fully trainable stat.
Also: Use of senses:
Sight: When you first enter the world, your vision is kind of blurry. Not THAT blurry mind you, but not crystal clear like it is now.
Hearing: Hearing people, sounds and such from farther away.
Smell: typing /smell into the chatbox and reading what you smell. You can smell things behind trees in the woods. Good for rangers. Note: do not use in sewers. It\'ll hurt you.
Taste: take a small nibble of food/ small sip of drink before comsuming it all. If the food is too raw and would hurt you, you\'d know, or if it has spoilt or gone stale, or the \'bad whiskey\' that once put my character in a coma...
Touch: Testing a weapon, if the center of balance is too far towards the blade end and will be clumsy, you\'ll know it. Or if something is of fine or poor craftsmanship, so you\'ll know the quality of goods before you buy them. Or if a weapon is too heavy at the hilt, and you won\'t do much damage with it, you\'ll know it. And it should also help healers.
Intuition (6th sense): Increase with wisdom. Knowing if an enemy is sneaking up behind you. Or if the cave is going to cave in. You\'ll know when and where to go before you get klobbered.
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This entertaining video is a report about how hearing skills can be trained, and why an Oreille d\'Or is very talented in a submarine, but cannot challenge his wife in kitchen:
http://www.em6.fr/video/446_oreillesOrTCH.zip
It lasts about 5 minutes.
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Originally posted by defender43
Intelligence can be trained. I see \"Intelligence\" as a synonym for Wisdom, which comes from a combination and application of knowledge and experience. Both are easily trained. Reading a book on philosophy, or just about anything can increase knowledge. Experience comes from making desicions, as we do on a day-do-day basis, and learning from the good ones and the bad ones. So:
Intelligence = Wisdom.
Wisdom = Experience + Knowledge.
Not bad an idea, but I must disagree with that. Wisdom is more like willpower, judgement, (The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight), while intelligence is knowledge.
Knowing something cannot be used properly unless you know how to apply it or use it correctly, in which things like common sense come into play.
Wisdom can be thought of as knowledge gathered through the ages, but in this context I don\'t think it applies. Common sense and good judgement is only partially gained through knowledge, but mostly through experience, ie, using it solely.
Originally posted by defender43
Experience and Knowledge are both trainable.
Wisdom is based on Knowledge and Experience, and therefor also trainable.
Intelligence is the same thing as Wisdom, ans therfor since Wisdom is trainable, Intelligence is also trainable.
Therfore, I conclude that Intelligence is a fully trainable stat.
Yes, intelligence is trainable. I agree with you on that. However, I disagree on the reasons. Wisdom, in my opinion, is not the same as intelligence.
My reasons for being able to train intelligence:
Intelligence represents knowledged gained through experience and learning. Since people are always learning something new, intelligence grows. If you could not \'train\' intelligence, we\'d probably be stuck knowing how to read or not when we\'re born (As in, we have no control over it.)
Originally posted by defender43
Also: Use of senses:
Sight: When you first enter the world, your vision is kind of blurry. Not THAT blurry mind you, but not crystal clear like it is now.
Hearing: Hearing people, sounds and such from farther away.
Smell: typing /smell into the chatbox and reading what you smell. You can smell things behind trees in the woods. Good for rangers. Note: do not use in sewers. It\'ll hurt you.
Taste: take a small nibble of food/ small sip of drink before comsuming it all. If the food is too raw and would hurt you, you\'d know, or if it has spoilt or gone stale, or the \'bad whiskey\' that once put my character in a coma...
Touch: Testing a weapon, if the center of balance is too far towards the blade end and will be clumsy, you\'ll know it. Or if something is of fine or poor craftsmanship, so you\'ll know the quality of goods before you buy them. Or if a weapon is too heavy at the hilt, and you won\'t do much damage with it, you\'ll know it. And it should also help healers.
Intuition (6th sense): Increase with wisdom. Knowing if an enemy is sneaking up behind you. Or if the cave is going to cave in. You\'ll know when and where to go before you get klobbered.
You\'ve got some very descriptive things there, let me take it apart to handle with ease.
Sight: It is not really trainable that easily. There are conditions where a person may or may not be able to see easily at birth. Some people have really bad eyesight, while others have perfect.
The only thing I can think that you can train is improving your general awareness, how observant you are, not how well you see.
Hearing: This is simple. I\'ve known people to become accustomed to listening to extremely soft sounds, or from far off.
So, improving your hearing would consist mostly of you paying more attention to what you actually hear.
Smell: Eh... This is the only sense where I know of no possibility to improve it. You certainly can remember smells, but for sensing things that are hiding... Unless you\'re one of the few races in Planeshift that use their noses exclusively, I\'d have to say no.
And for smelling in the sewers, that\'s a bit extreme, don\'t you think? The only time where it\'d be horrible enough to gag you would be a horrendous smell. I don\'t think the sewers are that bad.
Touch: There\'s not much in how you can improve what you feel from touching... When you try to gauge the balance of a blade, you\'re not learning that from touching it, but from lifting it, experimenting with it, weighing it, balancing it.
Basically what I\'m trying to say is that it\'s a far stretch of the imagination, to label something like that as \'touching\'.
You certainly can run your thumb or the like along the blade to gauge the sharpness of the blade, but I don\'t think you can really train that..
Intuition sounds like a badly tortured version of being psychic. At least, the way you\'re describing it. You\'d have to \'sense\' a person was sneaking up on you, and that would basically be a combination of a few senses, not intuition.
I\'m much more sketchy on intuition... I\'m not saying that I don\'t believe in it, it does exist, but I really, really doubt you can train something as elusive as that.
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Instead of squabbling about the trainability of existing skills in the game (which seems sort of pointless as far as this thread\'s topic goes), has anyone considered this:
Skills for the senses that have values from character creation, but that... wait for it, CAN\'T be trained.
Personally, this seems to make the most sense to me. Perhaps there are exceptions, like hearing, that can be trained. And all of the skills can probably be permanently enhanced through certain advanced potions or magic. But just because you have a skill doesn\'t mean it needs to be trained in the conventional manner.
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Quote from me
I don\'t know if I like the idea or not yet, but I can still join the discussion. Why do people insist on finding a good way to train them? Couldn\'t this be implemented as something you choose at character creation and then have to live with? In many other games, that\'s how it works with stats and that never seemed strange, did it? .
I completely agree!!! :D
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Originally posted by Cha0s
Skills for the senses that have values from character creation, but that... wait for it, CAN\'T be trained. [...]
The most realistic and simple way to deal with this problem is to separate the attribute and the skills. The attribute exists from the character creation and cannot change, whereas the skills can be learned, trained, etc.
A global Perception attribute wouldn\'t match because the balance of senses is different among the races: a Kran could have a good sight but a bad touch, when a Nolthrir could have a good Touch but a bad smell.
IMHO, the best way is to have five (or more if some races have other senses (density?, magnetic?, magic?)) attributes for senses. Then, for each, several skills can be linked:
- Attr. Sight, skills: nightvision (cannot be trained beyond the race limitation), see far, global vision, metsuke enzan no (sighting faraway mountain), recognize animals, recognize plants, ...
- Attr. Smell, skills: smell far, olfactive focus, separate smells, cooking, follow olfactive trail, detect poisons, recognize plants, ...
- Attr. Taste, skills: cooking, detect poisons, recognize plants, ...
- Attr. Touch, skills: feel the wind, feel the temperature, feel electricity, feel the pain, play music, ...
- Attr. Hearing, skills: hear far, hearing focus, separate sounds, recognize forest sounds, recognize aquatic sounds, recognize animal cry, play music, singing, ...
For sewers, there is a very strong smell that should hinder (and even deconcentrate) Enkis. This could be avoided by a successful \'olfactive focus\' and skill test (with a big malus). To chase someone there, a successful \'separate smells\' test should be realized.
Any critics or improvement suggestions?
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Originally posted by Waylander
I will probably not post in this thread again...but all the same,
Hearing can be trained in a sense, you can learn to block out sounds a concentrate on one or two.
Sight can not be trained, it relies on the actual construction of your eyeballs
Smell, I highly doubt this can be training, but I am not sure
Touch, depends on the amount of nerve endings and so can not be trained (Atleast to my knowledge)
Taste, I have no idea, though I doubt it
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But, all the same..
Intelligence: can not be trained
Will: Can not be trained
Charisma: Can not be trained much; it depends a lot on your looks and you can\'t learn to be as good looking as Jessica Alba now can you?
Strength: Can be trained, but not through knowledge, it should take practice
Endurance: Same as strength
Agility: Just try training this, it is very hard especialy after the age of 15.
And so; it seems a lot of the training available isn\'t quite sensible either
Intelligence: Might be trained. Just make intelligence level ups pop up in every skill where you use your head(example: Swordfighting(not that much but still) Magic(quite alot of popups here) Smithing, Mining(if you find the right resources, then Yes). As intelligence is the knowledge to use your mind in several tasks, intelligence bonuses will boost skill-level up speed as the more you know, the better you work and learn.
Taste: Might be trained. For example: You have a mushroom but you don\'t know if you want to taste it. In real life you nip of a piece of the mushroom/any object and taste it. If your taste is developed and the mushroom is indeed poisonous then a message will pop up saying ithere\'s something fishy with this mushie.
Charisma: Can be trained by socializing with people(NPC\'s) If you have good relations with the npc\'s(hoping there will be a certain reputation system) the charisma level will increase faster. Though. If you\'re not at all social and no npc\'s like you, then you will stick to that level, or even decrease in charisma as you forget on how to socialize! A lower charisma level also increases the NPC\'s suspicousness against you and they will be more wary to lend out quests.
I guess i\'ll leave you now and let your eyes rest ;)