PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pestilence on January 18, 2006, 12:00:04 pm
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There have been people who have been complaining about how leveling of stats is to much on the mind of people. Most want to combat this by making it harder.
But then your only making the problem worse. The people who want that have to spend even more tim e on it.
My solution would be to make it a lot easier. Make it so it\'s not that it takes months of slaying to reach the max.
In guildwars for example the max level is only 20 wich you reach if you want in 2/3 week the first time you play. There goald ofcourse isn\'t to get people to roleplay but to focus more on the skills and to build the perfect combo and focus more on PvP I guess.
Now this system could also work well with planeshift but instead of having people max and let them focus on skills they should be persuaded to focus more on Roleplaying.
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hmm the idea of getting maxed out really quickly isnt that great cos at the moment once ur maxed not much more to do but i dont get the progression points thing as i mentioned in my thread i think u should gain exp in the skill your training if your doin combat with swords u get sword exp that would make it a bit easier.
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I think the one thing that spoils training is the fact that we\'ve got to slay monsters whatever it is we want to train...
I just hope that in the future there can be better ways of earning gold and PPs.
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I believe they should either do it the way suggested above, or, which I like better, is that each time you use a non-combat skill you gain a small amount of exp. This can discouage people from having to fight to raise exp.
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Yup, that\'s what I had in mind.
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Originally posted by Sangwa
I just hope that in the future there can be better ways of earning gold and PPs.
Originally posted by Shadowcast
... or, which I like better, is that each time you use a non-combat skill you gain a small amount of exp.
I agree with both of you, but this already exists. Ever try mining? Mining does give experience (and of course the PP\'s that go along with it). In fact, mining is the only way to earn gold. And anything else besides gold that you mine can be sold for tria. So, it is already possible to advance without fighting and there will be even more ways of doing this in the future.
As far as I know, the future planned skills will also give experience when used. When that happens, fighting will be the only combat-related way to gain experience. All the others (crafting, cooking, musical instrument, etc.) will be non-combat related skills.
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Originally posted by Einnol
Mining does give experience (and of course the PP\'s that go along with it). In fact, mining is the only way to earn gold. And anything else besides gold that you mine can be sold for tria.
I was not aware of that. Of course I have never tried mining. But But how much is gained, I doubt it compare in any way to fighting right now.
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You are correct. Unfortunately, at this time, mining does not give nearly the experience of say killing a trepor and getting an instant 2000 exp. and 10 PP\'s. Seems like to me that right now every mining attempt gives you 1% exp on your experince bar and a successful attempt gives you about 10% instead. Yes, it would take a lot longer to get experience mining. The devs are aware of this, but it is a balancing issue that will probably be addressed after bugs and new features. Right now, hunting does give too much experience and mining too little, in my opinion. I was merely pointing out that it is possible. ;)
If you want to try mining and want a mining buddy, look me up in-game. :)
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ad it said in my thread progression points are probably gona go eventually and youll get exp for the skill ur usin.
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hmm the idea looks interesting there is only one problem. You can\'t use a skill that you haven\'t trained yet.
Like mining right now you would have to fight atleast enough to get the money and PP to train the first level and to buy a pickaxe and then ofcourse atm the exp given is a joke compared to PP gotten from combat.
Anyhow interesting as it is I don\'see how this would cause powerlevelers to no longer focus on powerleveling. The leveling would be different perhaps and the powerlevelers would perhaps spend less time only killing things (still a big if if swordfighting gives you the exp to raise swordfighting), but I still see them at it with leveling.
While my solution is garunteed to have levelers look elsewhere for their fun.
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BTW just to get it straight, guild wars designed it not only just to get the perfect combo, but to have tons of strategy in your build, group, and performance.
anyway, something should be done about it, but I dont think it is a very big problem. The system itself makes you rather RP than PL because it takes so much work IMO.
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What makes most people feel behind on people who do spend that time needed on leveling and makes it worth while as it\'s a challenge.
but to have tons of strategy in your build, group, and performance.
I do believe it forced the players to think of those things in term of the skills I mention but the thinking about it in itself isn\'t new to guildwars.
Anyhow the point was it forced players to look elsewhere then leveling quite effectively and Guildwars has proven it works. While making it harder many games have proven it wont work. It only makes the elite more elite and thusly can\'t be ignored.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
hmm the idea looks interesting there is only one problem. You can\'t use a skill that you haven\'t trained yet.
Like mining right now you would have to fight at least enough to get the money and PP to train the first level and to buy a pick axe and then of course atm the exp given is a joke compared to PP gotten from combat.
I really do agree with this. It is silly to make a player fight/kill npc for pp. It is possible that they allow pp to be granted though a simple quest instead. There are many many ways to solve this. Also the pp that mining gives, if it is so terrible it should be changed and maybe even depending what you mine.
While my solution is guaranteed to have levelers look elsewhere for their fun.
I have yet to meet a power leveler that is not fun to talk with. Granted jerks do come in game and sometimes even stay but it doesn\'t narrow it down to just power levelers. I have maxed my character in many things and yes I did it very quickly but I still found time to meet the community here and its unlike any out there that I have seen. Plus I don\'t see why everyone thinks planeshift is where the power levelers want to be, there are better free games out there that have tons of npc to fight on instead of just a few. Also what would the community be with out the power levelers? IMO not any better off.
In any case I really do hope they change the mining :D and add more skills to do.
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Stratification of the playerbase is a good thing in many ways..... I don\'t understand why so many people are down on it.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
hmm the idea looks interesting there is only one problem. You can\'t use a skill that you haven\'t trained yet.
Like mining right now you would have to fight atleast enough to get the money and PP to train the first level and to buy a pickaxe and then ofcourse atm the exp given is a joke compared to PP gotten from combat.
Correct on the PP/training unless you start off with mining skill already. Due to the background choices I made during character creation, I started off with level 2 mining skill.
But, you are absolutely correct on getting the tria to buy a rock pick. Starting off being able (having the skill already) to mine does not help if you have no tria and no rock pick to do it with. Even the simple quests do not give you tria for free. You still would have to spend like 5 tria to make 20 tria or so. That does indeed leave you with the only option of killing enough rats (barehanded) to earn your very first couple tria to buy a rock pick. Only then could you start a mining career (if that is what you wanted to do). From that point you would not have to kill anything else and just mine instead. (As long as you do not mind the painfully slow experience progress). :D
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True but as I said. it doesn\'t make people RP. It might indeed be something you might implement but I really don\'t think it\'s a solution so it\'s really offtopiic as it only gives powerlevelers more choices what to level.
Do I mind powerlevelers? Not really mind them and don\'t see my way scaring them of, I think it\'s a very nice way for people to first level and have something to do while getting to know Planeshift and then have them look even deeper into the community
Also gives roleplayers the chance to be really good at things they say they are good at when roleplaying without having to spend days without roleplaying.
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In my opinion, no amount of balancing of skills or making it harder or easier to gain levels will make people role-play. The role-players (like myself) will do so because they enjoy it and they will incorporate it into everything they do. It certainly is possible to role-play while hunting or mining, as long as you are perfoming these skills or tasks in-character. You can carry on RP conversations and actions between NPC kills and mining attempts. As long as you do not break character with OOC references, etc., you are still \'role-playing\'.
I think the community and the guilds (particularly the guild leaders) should be the biggest motivators towards role-playing. It seems to me that it would be nearly impossible to encourage role-playing thru the game mechanics and features.
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hhmm I have to disagree to some extent. Ofcourse you can\'t force people to roleplay, but the devs seem to want to make roleplaying mandetory. Now in my opinion some mining and some tefusangslaying you can roleplay but the amount you need to be really good at something can\'t and that in my opinon is a huge flaw in the current system if you want to make roleplaying mandatory.
I also feel it\'s unfair to expect the guildleaders to demand roleplaying if the gamemechanics make it so that people are going to be running behind in skills and money. Guilds should be there to add something to the game to make making friends easier, to make people feel part of something. They should be there to add flavor to the roleplaying not to enforce it.
I consider myself more a roleplayer then a powerleveler at this time in Planeshift, but I started out the other way around and I know how it felt to roleplay more and see others max things while you weren\'t even halfway becuase you spend your time on roleplaying.
Ofcourse I made that choice and the roleplaying was satisfying but I still don\'t feel that you should have to make a real choice like that in a game where they make roleplaying mandatory.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
I consider myself more a roleplayer then a powerleveler at this time in Planeshift, but I started out the other way around
I think the vast majority start out this way simply because they \'do not know any better\'. I did not completely understand role-playing when I first started. I had only a general idea based on what I had read in the various guides and FAQ\'s on the website and forum. Now I think of RP as sort of like an artform. At first, you have to concentrate on \'trying\' to RP and \'learning\' to RP, but over time it becomes more natural and subconcious (and enjoyable). :D
In my mind, I define a role-player as someone who does their best to stay IC no matter where they are or what they are doing. I look at role-playing as sort of a life-style choice or a game-playing style if you will. Not so much what you do in-game, but how you do it. So, I don\'t think role-playing and increasing your character\'s experience, tria, skills, etc. are mutually exclusive. I tend to think of possible things to do while I am in-game not as role-playing, hunting, or mining, but rather as RP\'ing while I am hunting, RP\'ing while I am mining, or RP\'ing while I am just standing around relaxing. Role-playing can happen anywhere, not just the tavern or plaza.
Power levelers, on the other hand, are completely focused on obtaining the next better item so they can can kill the next higher creature so they can get the next bigger reward. They usually give no thought to giving their character any more personality than that of a tin can. Whether it takes them 6 months or 3 days to max every skill they possibly can may not make a big difference to them. At that point they will probably stop playing thinking that they \'beat the game\' without ever realizing what they are missing out on, which is unfortunate. Then, they will just be replaced by the next new PL\'er to come along.
Maybe this is an ultra-extreme example of how a power-leveler might act. But, is there maybe a gray area? What if someone wishes to role-play an ambitious, mighty warrior. What if while swinging his sword he recounts detailed stories about his past. Suppose he tells you that when he was a child his sister was murdered by a powerful, mighty rouge and now he is driven to become strong enough to seek revenge on that evil person. Is he a power-leveler or a role-player? Maybe it depends on how you define these terms. Just food for thought. :D
Just like you, I made the choice to RP and I have no regrets whatsoever. Also, like you, my skills and stats could be much higher if I spent all my time IG working towards that goal. But, by choice, I do not. There have been times that I had planned on a little hunting or mining, but on my way ran into a friend who was perhaps on his wayt to the tavern to \'get a drink\'. Perhaps he had something to celebrate and asked if I would like to join him, which I do. This could mean that a couple hours later, I still have not hunted or mined anything. Do I regret it? No. Was it worth it? Yes. Did I still have a good time? Yes. There will always be another time to hone my skills or earn a couple extra tria. If that means that somebody else has a higher level skill or stat, then good for him. It does not bother me. As long as he is not standing in the plaza and shouting the fact that he has a 60 slash sword and a level 25 sword skill from the plaza (OOC\'ly) and impacting my RP experience, then I am happy for him.
I think you might agree that we both wish for the same thing, to see RP not only survive, but thrive as well. How to go about this is a very complex and complicated issue. Perhaps there is not one \'ultimate\' solution, but a combination of them. Maybe there is no solution at all. Maybe all we can do is try to show others how much fun it can be and hope that they enjoy it as well. Without any new role-players, the existing ones will become a dying breed. And that, in my opinion, would be a tragedy.
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Oh waaaa Power levelers ruin my game....
SO now I my childish attitude has you attention :P
Let the levelers Level! I think of most of them as the orcs or brutes who don\'t speak much. I have gotten to know a few who are the strong and silent type. Their character is just that, not worried aobout the politics and interaction with others.
One of them I met in the arena slowly opened up to me, granted I think that most of it was ooc when they started but they were still friendly and willing to talk a little. It created more depth to their character, but still allowed them to level.
So let them...
As far as magic goes, I guess some day I will level some Char as far as I can with magic, this will make them a power leveler! Awsome, but my main Menki will always be Kandrek... and too darned helpful to ever gain too many levels :P
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Why is everyone trying to stop pling. Youre not going to and there is no way of it. This thread has become too much on how to stop plers. It should be on how to make lvling easier on rpers.
When I started off, I had a weak attack, High spped and endurance, no mining, you get the picture. Now I made my character to roleplay, as a ranger. Now if I want to raise my stats to become a better ranger, then I HAVE to go and hunt monsters, and of course people are going to call this powerleveling. Well IMO its not, and what most people call pling is not either.
But I want to make it easier for the people who love to rp to have an easier time to raise their stats. We need a system allows them to become a better ranger, mage, warrior, ect. easier and allows them to base their character creation on what they want to become, not on fighting. Right now, to become a good whatever, youre character needs to be a good fighter to start with, otherwise youll have a hard time becoming good in something.
Right here and right now, everyone stop trying to get rid of plers, you cant, you wont, and no system can do that. Lets just concentrait on making this more newbie-friendly, and more rp-friendly.
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Originally posted by Shadowcast
Why is everyone trying to stop pling. Youre not going to and there is no way of it. This thread has become too much on how to stop plers. It should be on how to make lvling easier on rpers.
When I started off, I had a weak attack, High spped and endurance, no mining, you get the picture. Now I made my character to roleplay, as a ranger. Now if I want to raise my stats to become a better ranger, then I HAVE to go and hunt monsters, and of course people are going to call this powerleveling. Well IMO its not, and what most people call pling is not either.
But I want to make it easier for the people who love to rp to have an easier time to raise their stats. We need a system allows them to become a better ranger, mage, warrior, ect. easier and allows them to base their character creation on what they want to become, not on fighting. Right now, to become a good whatever, youre character needs to be a good fighter to start with, otherwise youll have a hard time becoming good in something.
Right here and right now, everyone stop trying to get rid of plers, you cant, you wont, and no system can do that. Lets just concentrait on making this more newbie-friendly, and more rp-friendly.
Agreed, I am sorry if my post came off as anti PLing. Not inteded to. I don\'t like the fact that I have some chars I was to play with that cannot level due to their non-combantant styles.
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It wasnt youre post that is making me mad. In fact yours inspired me to post this. But most of this thread has been how to eliminate plers, and thats gone too far.
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How to elimenate Powerlevelers? I don\'t see my solution as a way to elimenate them but a way to integrate them faster and also to get rid of the ones not interested in integrating yes.
If you think this is unfair well I am sorry but have you read any of the official posts lately. The devs are going to ENFORCE roleplaying. They started with the RMs and I hear there is a rule forbidding OOC talk at the plaza and the tavern already.
Now if the game has to go that way I don\'t want to see the game made that hard that it\'s impossible to play while keeping to the rules the devs might think of next.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
How to elimenate Powerlevelers? I don\'t see my solution as a way to elimenate them but a way to integrate them faster and also to get rid of the ones not interested in integrating yes.
Simply they will get rid of themselves. Funny that they either become bored of the game then leave or become to abusive then banned from the game OR the make the choice to join the community in planeshift ^^ and have a wicked time getting to know everyone.
If you think this is unfair well I am sorry but have you read any of the official posts lately. The devs are going to ENFORCE role playing. They started with the RMs and I hear there is a rule forbidding OOC talk at the plaza and the tavern already.
Btw the RM\'s as they say on their post simply only enforced role play at their events not all throughout the game ;) and they are doing a great job and I hope that they keep up the good work \\o/
Oringinally posted by Shadowcast
It wasnt youre post that is making me mad. In fact yours inspired me to post this. But most of this thread has been how to eliminate plers, and thats gone too far.
I do agree go back to topic on how to make progression points better and easier to get at in different ways. Most was about mining and how progression points could be raised for this. Also they might want to make the picks for mining worth nothing (eg like the ruby crystals) and have the rats or npc in the sewers drop them. That way there ia a semi- more easy way to get these things ^^
Or from the players side we could start a noob fund XD where we the players could buy picks for newbies (which btw I have done yes)
Come on people I know you can think of better ideas ^^
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in the future progression points will probly be rplaced with something else anyways
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Originally posted by Pestilence
The devs are going to ENFORCE roleplaying. They started with the RMs and I hear there is a rule forbidding OOC talk at the plaza and the tavern already.
The RM and GM teams are being merged, by the way :>
As for a rule forbidding OOC conversation, that\'s quite unlikely. PlaneShift encourages roleplay, not enforces it.
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Originally posted by Dylia
Or from the players side we could start a noob fund XD where we the players could buy picks for newbies (which btw I have done yes)
And Thats probably the best, most sesible Idea weve had yet.
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Hrmm... You seem a bit misinformed. There will be no enforcing of roleplay. However, event-running GMs will reward players for roleplay.
The key to solving this problem is the philosophy of it. The power-levelers don\'t want to kill stuff to be the most powerful they can be as fast possible, they just want to be the most powerful they can be as fast as possible, by any means necessary. If leveling through combat takes two times, three times, even four times longer than roleplaying to max stats, the power-levelers will roleplay to advance. And then they cease to be power-levelers, since they\'re roleplaying. :) I have seen this system applied, and let me tell you, it works. Those that don\'t have the patience to roleplay leave by their own choice, which works out just fine for those that are actually committed to roleplaying. Those power-levelers willing to roleplay become roleplayers. In short, pretty much everyone ends up happy. :)
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Originally posted by Cha0s
Hrmm... You seem a bit misinformed. There will be no enforcing of roleplay. However, event-running GMs will reward players for roleplay.
slightly off topic but does that mean that in one has to take part in events in order to advance?
Because up till now I have had no wish to join in any of the events prefering to create and join in with player lead rp
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Not at all, it just means that players who do participate in GM-run events will be rewarded with items, experience, etc. Just like NPC quests, but more dynamic, unique, and fun :)
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Dylia brain storms
One good idea that I dont know if they would be interested in the GM holding an event for the newbies?
Like get down to the mines and get something like a pick, a few trias and some pp. This would and could be another way to avoid killing the rats in the sewers to start off with OR for now they could make pp able to be traded. There are some \"Powerlevelers\" that could and may help if asked, after all they have all this pp built up and dont really need it right?
Anyone else with some ideas?
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Dylia: That is an excellent thought that gets right to the heart of the fact that if, right from the start, someone wanted to RP a more \'pacifist\' type of character such as a miner they would not be able to actually perform these activities and gain any experience or increase any skills or stats at all (at least as things are right now). So, if they intend to actually use any of the features provided in-game, they have to \'break character\' right from the start. Of course, this only applies to the here and now since there is so much more that is coming, but not here yet. Nobody knows what the future will bring.
ChaOs: I could not agree more. GM (RM) run events are the single best way to reward players for role-playing. RP is very subjective and can only be measured in this way. With all due respect to all the work that the programers do (which is amazing), current technology just does not provide a means of measuring RP thru program code. Although these rewards are very appreciated, I enjoy them because they are so immersive and dynamic. There is a level of interaction and enjoyment that also can not be duplicated with programming.
This may be an unpopular thought with some people, but I am only offering it as food for thought. When talking about role-players vs. power-levelers, I can not help but wonder if we are comparing apples and oranges. Are these mutually exclusive terms? Wouldn\'t the opposite of an RP\'er actually be an OOC\'er? Wouldn\'t the opposite of a PL\'er actually be a \'slow and steady leveler\' (tourtoise and hare comparison, perhaps)? If a \"PL\'er\" participates in a GM event as ChaOs described because the reward was greater than can be gained thru fighting, does he really (paraphrasing ChaOs) \'cease to be a power-leveler\' or is he just PL\'ing in a different way? Is he a PL\'er, RP\'er, or both at the same time? If we challenge our own perceptions of these basic ideas, does it make any difference in how we look at this topic? Or, (finally) am I just too tired (or too drunk) to be making any sense at this point? :D
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Originally posted by Karyuu
The RM and GM teams are being merged, by the way :>
As for a rule forbidding OOC conversation, that\'s quite unlikely. PlaneShift encourages roleplay, not enforces it.
Originally posted by Cha0s
There will be no enforcing of roleplay.
Bull. There have been plenty of times when a GM has muted me or threatened to ban me simply out of suspecting me of some sort of out of character activity.
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Then you\'ll be glad to know that the GM team, in its new form, is being thoroughly inspected and will be ruled with an iron fist :P
Mistakes do happen, Zanzibar. You, of all people, should understand this.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Then you\'ll be glad to know that the GM team, in its new form, is being thoroughly inspected and will be ruled with an iron fist :P
Mistakes do happen, Zanzibar. You, of all people, should understand this.
Of course I understand that people make mistakes. I see other people making them all the time.
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Originally posted by Einnol
Dylia: That is an excellent thought that gets right to the heart of the fact that if, right from the start, someone wanted to RP a more \'pacifist\' type of character such as a miner they would not be able to actually perform these activities and gain any experience or increase any skills or stats at all (at least as things are right now). So, if they intend to actually use any of the features provided in-game, they have to \'break character\' right from the start. Of course, this only applies to the here and now since there is so much more that is coming, but not here yet. Nobody knows what the future will bring.
First off not a thought... its an idea ... that I was hoping could be tried. Yes I do realize the game is limited right now and there will be more in the future and I look forward to it :D but for now there are things that can be done and used to help the new people to start to get involved in not only the fighting but also the role play. And my idea is simply trying to make it easier for people who want to start or as a miner a little easier.
Another idea is that ( and maybe I should have started a new thread for it but meh ^^ ) there could be a short of teacher and student relationship made in planeshift. In a way that people can help newbies as always. There could be benefits to taking on a student. And this also may help people with mining. Meaning the experienced miners could help the new ones out. :D
*pokes Pestilence* What do you think? *giggles*
[EDIT]
*this is my 150 th post and I have a red star now yays ^^
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Sorry Dylia. I guess that will teach me to post so late at night. :D
It is an excellent idea. The teacher idea is also very good. I am sure you will be an excellent teacher. If you every need a mining professor for a student, let me know. ;)
And congratulations on the red star.
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Originally posted by Einnol
Sorry Dylia. I guess that will teach me to post so late at night. :D
It is an excellent idea. The teacher idea is also very good. I am sure you will be an excellent teacher. If you every need a mining professor for a student, let me know. ;)
And congratulations on the red star.
No problems I am guilty of doing that too >.> I just wanted to make sure I was clear about my ideas which reading your post I thought maybe my ideas are not clear :| I do that often ^^ and I will do one better on the mining >.> if they want to learn I will send them to you :D
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Originally posted by Cha0s
Hrmm... You seem a bit misinformed. There will be no enforcing of roleplay. However, event-running GMs will reward players for roleplay.
The key to solving this problem is the philosophy of it. The power-levelers don\'t want to kill stuff to be the most powerful they can be as fast possible, they just want to be the most powerful they can be as fast as possible, by any means necessary. If leveling through combat takes two times, three times, even four times longer than roleplaying to max stats, the power-levelers will roleplay to advance. And then they cease to be power-levelers, since they\'re roleplaying. :) I have seen this system applied, and let me tell you, it works. Those that don\'t have the patience to roleplay leave by their own choice, which works out just fine for those that are actually committed to roleplaying. Those power-levelers willing to roleplay become roleplayers. In short, pretty much everyone ends up happy. :)
Mis informed? Well sorry but if you are saying it never happened then I\'m not the one who is being misinformed. If these rules were ever official or not I don\'t know (hence my wish for a simple rulepage to have things like that made simple and clear.) but I have seen it been enforced about 1-2 months ago a few times in a row.
Granted I haven\'t seen it recently so this may have been recalled but can hardly say there isn\'t a trend that seems to be forming with such incidents.
As to karyuu sorry to hear the RMs are being integrated with the GMs. Thought they might have been a good addition if done right.
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if u really wana stop power leveling you should just put maximine exp every hour worked in a game called eternal lands i dont see why it wouldnt here once u have ur limit in fighting that hour u should just go do sumthin else but of couse we need to get rid of pps first lol but i dont really like that solution but it does work
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If you really want to stop power leveling, you should just put maximine experience per hour set to a limmit, or put it at a constant rate. A game called eternal lands does that with success.
I dont see why it wouldnt here, since once you have your limit in gaining experience then people will just do something else like RP, but of couse we need to get rid of power points first *laughs*. I dont really like that solution but it does work.
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With four different characters per account, a truely dedicated PL would switch characters as soon as the experience timer was maxed.
Not that I am against such a thing, but I thought I would just point out what I see as a way to get arround a max exp timer. Players might also get more than one account as well.