PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stephen McNaire on February 13, 2006, 03:02:00 pm
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You know, I traveled to Ojaveda for the first time in a couple weeks and when I wandered around I saw that Toda was a female Enki. Wasn\'t Toda male before? Or is my memory worse then my current cold:P?
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No you are correct.
I heard however that Toda being male was a mistake, that has now been corrected. So the female mesh is actually the correct one. :)
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hmm strange but ahh well.
Wonder why it had to be changed.
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I feel awkward all of a sudden 8o
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This is funny, Toda the Transsexual... :D
I wonder why they only discovered it after such a long time.
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I\'m wondering why they changed it. I mean everyone knows Toda as a male enki and \"he\" has been that way that long...., but on the other hand don\'t really care it\'s just strange ;)
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Heh .... Toda has made a great deal of changes for someone ..... he is shy...... and wants to get with Toda. :P There is a reason for the change. I have said to much... *looks around waiting for her to be struck down by the gods* O.o
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Toda a male? Surely you jest!
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Why can\'t females talk like females, and males talk like males, then? Even with his/her new mesh, he/she still doesn\'t sound feminine.
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Indeed, wheres lies the problem. I wrote a quest that used the Male Toda, and all the mannerisms are wrong now:p. I\'ll have to re-script it.
I\'m glad to know that I wasn\'t hallucinating though :).
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Originally posted by Suno_Regin
Why can\'t females talk like females, and males talk like males, then? Even with his/her new mesh, he/she still doesn\'t sound feminine.
I find stereotypes scripted into behavior boring :P
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Toda itself is a male\'s name, I figure they should make \"her\" a lot more feminine than that. In fact, all of them should be. Chat should be different with each NPC, not just certain individual ones. A female Dwarf, and Jayose, said almost the exact same things. =/
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Originally posted by Suno_Regin
Why can\'t females talk like females, and males talk like males, then? Even with his/her new mesh, he/she still doesn\'t sound feminine.
Sexist, much?
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Originally posted by Suno_Regin
Toda itself is a male\'s name [...]
Where do you get this information? Is it written somewhere, in stone perhaps? :P The \'a\' ending is actually feminine by most standards.
I figure they should make \"her\" a lot more feminine than that. In fact, all of them should be. Chat should be different with each NPC, not just certain individual ones. A female Dwarf, and Jayose, said almost the exact same things. =/
And you\'re an expert on female dwarf behavior..? Should they all go \"Tee hee\" and talk about clothes and shiny trinkets? I can\'t believe anyone is actually bringing this up.
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Men and Women do talk differently, and I\'m not talking \'stereotypes\'. Usually it\'s how they phrase a thought, or an expression they use. It\'s most noticeable in how they respond to something, the most common one I think in PS would be responding to a threat.
This is not sexism, this is life. And if you try to neuter every character, you end up with a stale bland world. Toda definitely talks male.
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I haven\'t talked with Toda recently so I can\'t discuss her in particular, but there is no reason for a female fighter (aggressive), for example, to talk like a male priest (gentle). Not all females sound feminine, or are immediately pointed out as female (I\'ve been referred to as \"he\" too many times to count), and not all males immediately make one think that they are without-a-doubt-don\'t-even-consider-anything-else male.
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Just for fun goggled Toda found this...
Josei Toda, the organization\'s second president, was born on February 11, 1900, in Ishikawa Prefecture, and shortly thereafter moved to Atsuta village in Hokkaido, where he spent his childhood. Like Mr. Makiguchi, he worked his way through school, became a school teacher, and then, at the age of 20, moved to Tokyo.
So under name rules change it grins [Joke]
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Originally posted by Karyuu
I haven\'t talked with Toda recently so I can\'t discuss her in particular, but there is no reason for a female fighter (aggressive), for example, to talk like a male priest (gentle).
Nope, none at all. But a male fighter and a female fighter will talk differently, as will a male priest and a female priest. But each person does talk differently, so there\'s alot of room for leeway I\'ll grant you that. But most do have distinct gender sounding speech and when text of spoken word is the only way you have to set a mood and develop a character (And in a short paragraph at that) you kinda have to skirt the extremes :).
Just so long as you aren\'t advocating girls that talk like boys Karyuu I have nothing to really argue, just gripe about:p.
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LOL I knew I knew that name from somewhere ;)
Anyhow ofcourse not all females sound the same, but there simply are differences between men and females. It\'s not that all men are more macho then all females but it overal there are definately more males then women acting macho.
How male and female persons act in a group for example. Just look at a guy group an a girl group. Even if you wouldn\'t see it you would know the difference. It\'s not always easy to point out but it\'s scientificly proven we have different brains and they work differently.
So to say there are no differences and you shouldn\'t look at that this influences how one acts then I think you are going way overboard with the political correctness of the game and has little to do with realiy
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Originally posted by Karyuu
And you\'re an expert on female dwarf behavior..? Should they all go \"Tee hee\" and talk about clothes and shiny trinkets? I can\'t believe anyone is actually bringing this up.
Talk about clothes? Yes! Now, wearing them though.....
Originally posted by Stephen McNaire
Nope, none at all. But a male fighter and a female fighter will talk differently, as will a male priest and a female priest. But each person does talk differently, so there\'s alot of room for leeway I\'ll grant you that. But most do have distinct gender sounding speech and when text of spoken word is the only way you have to set a mood and develop a character (And in a short paragraph at that) you kinda have to skirt the extremes :).
Just so long as you aren\'t advocating girls that talk like boys Karyuu I have nothing to really argue, just gripe about:p.
Ach. Ach, with a clearing of the throat sound for the ch! What is this? The Victorian era?
Originally posted by Pestilence
LOL I knew I knew that name from somewhere ;)
Anyhow ofcourse not all females sound the same, but there simply are differences between men and females. It\'s not that all men are more macho then all females but it overal there are definately more males then women acting macho.
There are women who by ignorant standards act masculine. There are men who by ignorant standards act feminine. It happens, and it happens both ways, and it\'s ignorant and sexist to make such value judgements based on a person\'s sex.
Keep in mind that all these things are social conventions. Their nature is social. Biology might be a factor, but the way people interpret biological factors is entirely social. That is the nature of interpretation! That is the nature of agency!
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Todays PC standards should not apply to in-game stereotypes. I am not advocating the gigling girl stereotype for a fenki, but some sort of characture would be good to help us roleplay our own characters.
At this stage in development the lack of attention to the NPC text is understandable. But, the topic is definately worth a serious discusion. Maybe someone could post an example sentance and a rewrite to how you think it should sound.
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You are reaching looking for exceptions...you will will always find exception to any statement. Just in saying \"there are women who act masculine and men who act feminine,\" you have stated that you know this is not usually the case, thereby proving his statement with your exceptions.
Of course there are men and women who don\'t conform to the norms of male and female speech. And just because there are norms does not mean that anyone is not free to act and speak in any manner they desire. Also, the speech iteself is open to opinion as to the dgree of male and female sounding.
But to deny that there is a mainstream \"sound\" as to how males and females would approach a given situation is just being naive. So feel free to continue to strengthen the opposite argument by providing a detailed list of those women that sound like men and vice versa.
And for those that believe that a priest must be soft-spoken and kind, reference the Spanish Inquisition, for example. Another exception that proves the rule.
Generalizations can do harm when used to justify actions, but it does not mean that there is not truth in them.
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/me nods at Lazaro
Very true indeed.
The exeptions that proof the rule.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Todays PC standards should not apply to in-game stereotypes. I am not advocating the gigling girl stereotype for a fenki, but some sort of characture would be good to help us roleplay our own characters.
At this stage in development the lack of attention to the NPC text is understandable. But, the topic is definately worth a serious discusion. Maybe someone could post an example sentance and a rewrite to how you think it should sound.
i) It\'s not about \"PC standards\". It\'s about stereotypes.
ii) The real world is not made up of charactures.
iii) Gender is social in nature, whatever biological influences there may be.
Originally posted by Lazaro
But to deny that there is a mainstream \"sound\" as to how males and females would approach a given situation is just being naive.
And for those that believe that a priest must be soft-spoken and kind, reference the Spanish Inquisition, for example. Another exception that proves the rule.
Generalizations can do harm when used to justify actions, but it does not mean that there is not truth in them.
i) Generalizations may have some truth to them, but that doesn\'t make them true.
ii) There are plenty of modern day priests that are not soft-spoken. Evangelicalists for instance.
iii) What is and what is not \"mainstream\" is a matter of personal opinion.
Originally posted by Pestilence
/me nods at Lazaro
Very true indeed.
The exeptions that proof the rule.
Oy, twice in one thread.
\"The expection that proves the rule\"
This saying is based on an archaec use of \"proof\" which meant \"test\". So it\'s not to \"prove the rule correct\", it\'s \"to test the rule for correctness or falseness\". In this case, it \"proves the rule false\".
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No the fact there are exeptions to the rules proofs that in general the rule does exist.
Anyhow the rule isn\'t ?ll women act like this all men act like that. The rule is men in general are more macho and females in general are more feminine. The rule itself already says it ofcourse has some exeptions.
If you then say \"hey not ALL act like that\" only proves that the rule is valid.
Gender is social? If that were true why would so many cultures have the same red line in how men and women act?
And anyhow as I said it is scientificly proven the male and female brains are different from eachother and work quite differently so saying it is just social borders on ignorance.
Are male and females equals? Ofcourse but that doesn\'t mean they can not be different.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by derwoodly
Todays PC standards should not apply to in-game stereotypes. I am not advocating the gigling girl stereotype for a fenki, but some sort of characture would be good to help us roleplay our own characters.
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i) It\'s not about \"PC standards\". It\'s about stereotypes.
ii) The real world is not made up of charactures.
iii) Gender is social in nature, whatever biological influences there may be.
Hummm, probably not going to work, but let me try again.
It was suggested that girl NPC\'s should behave \"girly\". This was countered with in todays world this is not politically correct. I countered with notion that the NPC\'s are not in todays world. They are trapped in a fantasy world that in todays standards would be violent and cruel and sexist, so it is natural for the NPC\'s to behave in a more extream and colorfull manor.
Now ,I did not say it that way, but those words were inbetween the lines of my text. I would have thought that someone who is very good at reading inbetween the lines would have read that.
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Can someone post a line or two of Toda\'s (nonspoiler of sorts) speech, for further discussions?
*edited to add* It\'s not the \"There are differences between male and female patterns of speech\" issue that bothers me, for that is indeed true. What irked me was the \"Toda doesn\'t sound female enough. Fix it\" deal.
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Toda Ombretis is supposed to be a MALE Enki.
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Then something or someone messed up a little :P Since she\'s a prominant player in something or other with someone else now...
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Originally posted by Pestilence
No the fact there are exeptions to the rules proofs that in general the rule does exist.
No. It proves that the rule is wrong, false, invalid, untrue, flawed, prone to failure, and unreliable.
The problem is that the saying comes from a time when \"prove\" had a different meaning. Back then, it meant \"to test\", not \"to show as correct\".
Originally posted by Pestilence
Gender is social? If that were true why would so many cultures have the same red line in how men and women act?
Different cultures can have very different expectations for male and female roles and personalities. Just look at our own culture over the last thousand years. Heck, look at our own culture over the last 50 years!
Originally posted by Karyuu
Then something or someone messed up a little :P Since she\'s a prominant player in something or other with someone else now...
Well, it is possible that it\'s a homosexual relationship. The quest is broken right now anyway. :|
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Today I checked, and indeed the model has changed.
Anyway, if Darkmoon says Toda has to be a male, means that Toda was thought to be a male.
The description says: \"An industrious Enkdukai busy at his shop\"
I guess the clue here is the \"his\" part ;)
Ah, and yes, the description says Enkdukai :P
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Toda was changed from male to female so that one of the quests would be able to involve a female. There seems to be a shortage of females in Ojaveda nowadays.
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Not only a \"shortage of females\", but a \"shortage of dockworkers\" in general. I hope that I can find the reason as well... (Don\'t tell me here!)
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No. It proves that the rule is wrong, false, invalid, untrue, flawed, prone to failure, and unreliable.
The problem is that the saying comes from a time when \"prove\" had a different meaning. Back then, it meant \"to test\", not \"to show as correct\".
hmmm think that saying it a million time after eachother make it anymore true?
As for the saying coming from before and it meaning something different before is way irrelevant. I mean if a saying was used differently 100 or more years ago who cares? There is a widely accepted meaning of the saying now and so that is the only one you should look at.
You didn\'t say it and it\'s pretty obvious that we ment it the way it\'s used in this age and didn\'t mean it in the way it was used a few hundred years ago. So please stop trying making this is discussion about words and stay on topic.
Different cultures can have very different expectations for male and female roles and personalities. Just look at our own culture over the last thousand years. Heck, look at our own culture over the last 50 years!
hmmm well lets look at the basics... 10.000 years ago men were hunters and females were the ones who stayed near camp and gathered food there and took care of the children
hmm back to now. ideal family picture: the male is the one who goes out and gets money for the family, the female is the one who stays at home and takes care of the children and work to keep the house up.
hmm see similarities there? And lets look at other civilizations. Well atleast seems to be the same trend going on there if not worse about people being forced to act that way.
Even with civilizations being tottally different still the same red line is seen in almost all of them.
Now don\'t say it\'s not true cause you know it is and don\'t say it\'s all social becuase thats obviously not the case if 10.000 years ago it was already this way with tribes that would have no contact with eachother.
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Did anyone fail to notice that we\'re playing not on Earth but in Yliakum, with races and cultures that can be vastly different?
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Yeah BUT it\'s a medieval setting?And are some races slightly based on animals in our world?Whos dominates the animal kingdom in most cases males.
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This no longer has anything to do with speech - although Enkidukai are generally led in pack form by a male, they are all hunters and fierce warriors. There is no reason for a female Enkidukai to have a \"default\" behavior of rose-scented niceness. I\'ve talked to Toda yesterday, and the only things out-of-place were one action that used \"he\" in her speech when referring to herself, and her description. Beyond that, there was absolutely nothing that screamed \"OMG DEFINITELY MALE\" or \"OMG DEFINITELY FEMALE,\" and I liked it. Again, to steer this back on topic a little, if anyone could point to a specific sentence where Toda definitely says male-like things (excluding the \'errors\' I\'ve pointed out), that would be great.
Anyone?
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Originally posted by Pestilence
As for the saying coming from before and it meaning something different before is way irrelevant. I mean if a saying was used differently 100 or more years ago who cares? There is a widely accepted meaning of the saying now and so that is the only one you should look at.
Oh... my... god...
Originally posted by Pestilence
hmm back to now. ideal family picture: the male is the one who goes out and gets money for the family, the female is the one who stays at home and takes care of the children and work to keep the house up.
No. Most families in the Western world are dual income. That means that both partners have jobs. There also also many single parent households, stay-at-home dads, etc.
You might think that things should be a certain way, but many people disagree, and the reality of the situation doesn\'t reflect your ideals or preconceptions.
Originally posted by yayoo
Yeah BUT it\'s a medieval setting?And are some races slightly based on animals in our world?Whos dominates the animal kingdom in most cases males.
Nope. Look at the insect world for instance. The females are almost always the dominant sex. Ants, bees, black widdow spiders, termites, praying mantises - the female is the dominant sex. In the insect world, the females are usually larger, more dangeorus, and with more influence.
In terms of the animal kingdom, look at lions for instance. The females are the ones that do the hunting. If they don\'t like the male of the pride, they chase him out and find a stronger one.
In many bird species, the male will sit on the eggs to keep them warm while the female goes hunting. Certain species of penguins are excellent examples of this with the male sitting on the egg for many weeks.
So no, looking at the animal kingdom does not support your position.
Originally posted by Karyuu
Beyond that, there was absolutely nothing that screamed \"OMG DEFINITELY MALE\" or \"OMG DEFINITELY FEMALE,\" and I liked it. Again, to steer this back on topic a little, if anyone could point to a specific sentence where Toda definitely says male-like things (excluding the \'errors\' I\'ve pointed out), that would be great.
Anyone?
Well you see, males - or \"guys\", as we call them - are \"normal\". That means that they\'re cool, average, normal... though still diverse, too. Guys can do a lot of things, pretty much anything that they put their mind to.
No, females - or \"dolls\", as we call them - are quite different indeed. They\'re \"abnormal\". To be female is an exception to the rule. In society, they don\'t make many decisions, and they\'re only naturally good at things in the domestic sphere. So when they deal with people, as in men, they have to show that they\'re a female so that they can have influence using what we call \"magic powers\". So that\'s why all females tend to talk in higher voices, why they laugh and giggle, etc. They\'re flighty, \'girly\', and quirky. It\'s partly an act, and it\'s partly because of their nature. Not only that, but pretty much all girls are the same. There are a few exceptions, but they\'re \"freaks\" or \"antisocial\".
Maybe that\'s too much to understand at once dear. I\'ll understand if you want to leave all this thinking to the boys.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Maybe that\'s too much to understand at once dear. I\'ll understand if you want to leave all this thinking to the boys.
Oh darn, I guess I\'ll just go and bake something :<
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No. Most families in the Western world are dual income. That means that both partners have jobs. There also also many single parent households, stay-at-home dads, etc.
\"You might think that things should be a certain way, but many people disagree, and the reality of the situation doesn\'t reflect your ideals or preconceptions.
By saying that society sees that as \"ideal\" is something totally different with my views upon it and to say well there are plenty who don\'t life like that well DUH I said it was an ideal. You do know the meaning of that don\'t you?
In the end it doesn\'t matter that much how often reality allows of this to happen. Fact remains that if a family has enough money it is useally the female that stays at home. If one of the two has a part time job to be able to catch the kids after school it is useally the female.
Now just becuase there is a differene between male and females that makes this happen more often doesn\'t mean it always happen.
If you take a random groups of people of the street and ask yourself who is strongest. More then 50% chance its a male, but does this mean it will always be a male?
As for Toda I haven\'t found speech there that screams \"I\'m a transvestite\" Aslong is the text is pretty neutral it\'s what you make of it. Little different in the fanart though what I think atleast one ment to hint to instead of what Toda says in PS.
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You still don\'t get it.
Maybe you\'ll understand when you\'re older.
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I bow before your wisdom ohh old one. ;)
The problem is you don\'t get it yourself Zanzibar. You say you disagree but your examples to both me and others show you or don\'t understand what the other is saying or just aren\'t listening.
I do understand your point for as much as you made one instead of delivering critique on others opinions, but I disagree with it.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
I bow before your wisdom ohh old one.
And rightfully so!
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my point is proven I guess ;)
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Originally posted by Pestilence
my point is proven I guess ;)
Not really, but if I pointed it out, I\'d appear immature.
Meanwhile, Karyuu is still baking.... barefoot, no doubt.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by Pestilence
my point is proven I guess ;)
Not really, but if I pointed it out, I\'d appear immature.
Meanwhile, Karyuu is still baking.... barefoot, no doubt.
hmm yep \"now that\'s mature\" was what everyone was thinking when reading that post I am sure. [/sarcasm]. ;)
Anyhow it might be a good idea for the dev team or atleast the story team to think of how the different races will act. It should be fun to give each some culture and keep this in mind when modeling the NPCs.
Specially now quests are being added how certain people act is an interesting thing to look at. :)
Ofcourse there is already a lot that has been done in the fanart section. Many stories, but ofcouse here also lies a problem when the writers fill in blanks differently about things like hostroy or culture not made official by the devs yet.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
Anyhow it might be a good idea for the dev team or atleast the story team to think of how the different races will act. It should be fun to give each some culture and keep this in mind when modeling the NPCs.
This is a big \"duh\" :)
The dev team already has much more planned out than the public knows.
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*laughs*
Might seem like a duh but sometimes it seems to much is looked at the programming to create the world. So many technical things that need to be worked out you can hardly blame them.
But although the game isn\'t finished we could finish the world in our heads already. Fill in the blanks and think up of how Yliakum would really look if we would walk there. Make the world full.
Isn\'t that the most important in the end if the focus is RP? A rich world were many things could happen that sparks our imagination.
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The team is of course concentrating on the technical aspects first - we must have a stable foundation of code before adding intricate architecture, scripted behavior, etc. This isn\'t to say that nothing else is being worked on, but at this stage code really has the priority. There can never be \"too much is looked at the programming,\" because this is simply a necessity.
You are right, a realistic RP atmosphere is the most important in the end, but we\'re in the way beginning :)
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I disagree I am afraid
With the timespan that has been set out for PS its important to have a world in mind. Isn\'t it important for the artists to know what to draw? The questmakers what to write?
You can ofcourse think of this as you go along but I think the people who will explore Yliakum will feel this and the world will feel less as a whole.
The world of Yliakum in our heads needs time to evolve. To look at the different ideas and to pick the best. Tor get accostemed to these so they can be used to spawn ideas on bordering subjects that are more focused now. To keep doing this till Yliakum is crystalized fully ;)
PS: BTW I don\'t mean the current dev system should nececarily do this as I don\'t know exactly who the storywriters are (specially with the doublepositions people seems to have ;) ). But good storytelling should be a part of developing PS as much as the programming.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
Isn\'t it important for the artists to know what to draw? The questmakers what to write?
Community artists/writers or those on the team? There\'s an obvious difference, but the community can make do with what it\'s slowly given. I\'d too like it very much if many more things are available to the public, but it will be given out in-game in an RP manner, instead of random knowledge on websites or forums.
You can ofcourse think of this as you go along but I think the people who will explore Yliakum will feel this and the world will feel less as a whole.
The world already doesn\'t feel \"whole\" at all - and I think that this again is due to the current stage of the game. With each new release, which each new version, however, things improve and grow and evolve.
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I was thinking of the storywriters and the artists of the devteam itself.
There are so many things you can\'t change anymore once something has been drawn and been seen by people. An image sometimes says more then a thousand words so you need to have a good story or the gathering of images may not fit well together as one world.