PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: yayoo on February 19, 2006, 01:10:12 am
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What is your 3 most hated thing\'s.
RULES
1.There are no rules except for the 2nd rule.
2.You cant say something more than onece.
1.American\'s
2.Director\'s who know their making bad movie\'s but make them anyway.
3.Running from one place to another in MMORPG\'s and then quiting it 2 week\'s later.
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1. Ignorance.
2. Ignorance.
3. Wilful Ignorance.
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1. Blue Pandas
2. aubergines
3. Limes
but on the other hand
1. Ignorance.
2. Ignorance.
3. Wilful Ignorance.
could not agree more
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1. Lists about things you hate
2. Lists about things you like
3. Having 1 and 2 in the same forums
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1)Immaturity
2)Idling
3)Spamming
4)People who hate americans. (Hate the country, not its people. *cough*I LIVE HERE *cough*)
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amercan accents = h8 as i discussed the other day \"hugh dennis\" has the best accent ever... thats the doctor in my hero yayoo i trust you will know him.
people who worry too much
cant think of a third.
i think i have like an anti taser thing going on here too
Immaturity = <3
Idling... pocrastination ftw!
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1) people who hate me
2) people who annoy the crap outta me
3) anything else that is annoying (like the fact toda had a sex change)
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Wait, lemme get this straight: In the favorite\'s thread we CAN\'T list family. But we can in the most hated thread? Am I sensing family issues? :D
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Originally posted by shorty13
1) people who hate me
2) people who annoy the crap outta me
3) anything else that is annoying (like the fact toda had a sex change)
How enlightened.
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Originally posted by shorty13
3) anything else that is annoying (like the fact toda had a sex change)
ever hear the phrase \"sh*t happens\"? ..deal with it.
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1) Politically In-correct people
2) Stereo American haters
3) Fat people who always block you
edit: oo I contradicted myself. yay.
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:D PNEUMONOULTRAMICROSCOPICSILICOVOLCANOCONIOSIS
:)) FLOCCINAUCINIHILIPILIFICATION
:) ACETYLSERYLTYROSYLSERYLISOLEUCYLTHREONYLSERYLPROLYL?SERYLGLUTAMINYLPHENYLALANYLVALYLPHENYLALANYLLEUCYLSERYL?SERYLVALYLTRYPTOPHYLALANYLASPARTYLPROLYLISOLEUCYLGLUTAMYL?LEUCYLLEUCYLASPARAGINYLVALYLCYSTEINYLTHREONYLSERYLSERYL?LEUCYLGLYCYLASPARAGINYLGLUTAMINYLPHENYLALANYLGLUTAMINYL?THREONYLGLUTAMINYLGLUTAMINYLALANYLARGINYLTHREONYLTHREONYL?GLUTAMINYLVALYLGLUTAMINYLGLUTAMINYLPHENYLALANYLSERYL?GLUTAMINYLVALYLTRYPTOPHYLLYSYLPROLYLPHENYLALANYLPROLYL?GLUTAMINYLSERYLTHREONYLVALYLARGINYLPHENYLALANYLPROLYL?GLYCYLASPARTYLVALYLTYROSYLLYSYLVALYLTYROSYLARGINYLTYROSYL?ASPARAGINYLALANYLVALYLLEUCYLASPARTYLPROLYLLEUCYLISOLEUCYL?THREONYLALANYLLEUCYLLEUCYLGLYCYLTHREONYLPHENYLALANYL?ASPARTYLTHREONYLARGINYLASPARAGINYLARGINYLISOLEUCYLISOLEUCYL?GLUTAMYLVALYLGLUTAMYLASPARAGINYLGLUTAMINYLGLUTAMINYLSERYL?PROLYLTHREONYLTHREONYLALANYLGLUTAMYLTHREONYLLEUCYL?ASPARTYLALANYLTHREONYLARGINYLARGINYLVALYLASPARTYLASPARTYL?ALANYLTHREONYLVALYLALANYLISOLEUCYLARGINYLSERYLALANYL?ASPARAGINYLISOLEUCYLASPARAGINYLLEUCYLVALYLASPARAGINYL?GLUTAMYLLEUCYLVALYLARGINYLGLYCYLTHREONYLGLYCYLLEUCYL?TYROSYLASPARAGINYLGLUTAMINYLASPARAGINYLTHREONYLPHENYL?ALANYLGLUTAMYLSERYLMETHIONYLSERYLGLYCYLLEUCYLVALYL?TRYPTOPHYLTHREONYLSERYLALANYLPROLYLALANYLSERINE
and the time wasted on saying them
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1- steriotypes
2- ignorance
3- discrimination
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1 - Rasism
2 - Boredoom
3 - Threads like this
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1. Japanese guys (Japanese girls = O.K)
2. Those idiot Japanese people who go around saying that they invaded China to help it break free of western Imperialism.
3. Anybody that wants to commit racial genocide against the Chinese people
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im re doing this
1. anoying teens
2.gangsters
3. tv
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1. Ignorance
2. Racism
3. People that willingly practice the above (which is about half the american population that votes republican)
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look i have a right to speak out on the death of australian culture and further so the indigenous (abouriginal) australians culture.
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How do you hate gangsters?Their a lovable bunch.
And if it wasn\'t for tv we wouldnt know as much as we do about other cultures.
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Originally posted by yayoo
And if it wasn\'t for tv we wouldnt know as much as we do about other cultures.
*DIES LAUGHING* XDDDD
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Know It Alls
Taxes
Arrogance
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I want to add Liverpool the scum of England.
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Lies
Love
Spinach
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Originally posted by ou8i8uo
Know It Alls
Taxes
Arrogance
By labelling others as \"know it alls\", you yourself are being arrogant.
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That\'s true you are what you hate.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by ou8i8uo
Know It Alls
Taxes
Arrogance
By labelling others as \"know it alls\", you yourself are being arrogant.
Not if they\'re labeling themselves.
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1.) people who catergorise me very quikly as a race hating, culture hating, person hating (cause i dont like thugs - gangsters(real ones not wannabes) just cause i dont want to see a further divided australian society.
ok guys im gonna shut up and grow up a bit lol.
i love you guys, didnt mean to cause an argument or offence. (that means you ylikone, karyuu and yayoo)
added to the list:
2) insomnia, i carnt sleep
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I took no offence I openly hate most Americans and alot of other country\'s.
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I hate:
Ignorance
Prejudice
Egoism
Sexism
The mutilation of history by power-hungry institutions in order to control the populace. (don\'t ask)
The division of Ireland
Capitalism
Fast-food
Abandoning of Tradition
and Yayoo\'s inablility to see past their stereotyping of Americans and reconise that they are people just the same as those in the rest of the world.
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The main reason I hate America and most people in it is simply because it\'s a fact that if there was 2 Americas on Earth there wouldn\'t be a Earth thats a big issue if you ask me.
The secound is because of their president they voted for.
And the third is because of the number of people that get shot there a year.
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Originally posted by yayoo
The main reason I hate America and most people in it is simply because it\'s a fact that if there was 2 Americas on Earth there wouldn\'t be a Earth thats a big issue if you ask me.
The secound is because of their president they voted for.
And the third is because of the number of people that get shot there a year.
Please clarify the first paragraph as I highly doubt it made sense.
Secondly, I didn\'t vote for the president. Furthermore, in america there is really no other choice than to vote between two candidates. Therefore... we have less options to pick from... in England you have more.
As for the number of people that get shot there a year... what in the world does that have anything to do with it? Not to mention that despite that, they are a significantly lesser amount of terrorist attacks than in Europe. I don\'t see how you could even use that as a basis for hating all americans.
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I try to avoid hating stuff, but...
1. Hatred
2. War
3. Myself when stupid
(http://users.tkk.fi/~vrantapu/PlaneShift/nonvirtue.png)
...I don\'t always succeed.
(http://users.tkk.fi/~vrantapu/PlaneShift/disvirtue.png)
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Originally posted by yayoo
I took no offence I openly hate most Americans and alot of other country\'s.
Why... thats just stupid? Do you even have any reasons or are you just trying to sound hard?
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Originally posted by yayoo
That\'s true you are what you hate.
Are you american?
:rolleyes:
owned
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Three things I hate:
- Waiting.
- Stewed Okra.
- Not knowing why the PS server is down, or when it will come back up. (See 1.)
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Originally posted by yayoo
The main reason I hate America and most people in it is simply because it\'s a fact that if there was 2 Americas on Earth there wouldn\'t be a Earth thats a big issue if you ask me.
The secound is because of their president they voted for.
And the third is because of the number of people that get shot there a year.
America is a better place then you give it credit for. Remember just because america uses more doesn\'t mean it\'s bad , nor should you forget that america ended WW2.
And america comes up for more cures for dieses then any other nation.
We also have the highest literacy rate in the world.
For all of americas deflauts there are blances too.
Remember not everybody wanted Bush infact his popularity has gone way down if only they would have seen the evil man that he was earlier
Oh and on subject
I hate runescape
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Originally posted by dragonfire999
Originally posted by yayoo
That\'s true you are what you hate.
Are you american?
:rolleyes:
owned
:]
You got to that one before me. :P
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What I hate: People who say they hate America and George Bush, but they don\'t understand the issues.
People who say they hate Americans, just because they don\'t like the American government.
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I\'d like to point out that this thread is bigger than the 3 favorite things thread.
Thats pathetic, be more optimistic and begin to enjoy life people.
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Originally posted by Efflixi Aduro
I\'d like to point out that this thread is bigger than the 3 favorite things thread.
Thats pathetic, be more optimistic and begin to enjoy life people.
I\'m an incredibly optimistic person.
With all the crap that I see and think, I still believe that things are worthwhile and that there is a light at the end of each and every tunnel.
So don\'t you dare say that to people you don\'t know. Just because people talk about things they don\'t like, it doesn\'t mean that\'s all of who they are.
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1.
(http://imagecloset.com/8/02450120-broken-pencils.jpg)
2.
(http://www.odonel.k12.nf.ca/science/tut-bond/edot/H2O.jpg)
3.
(http://www.qwantz.com/fanart/Dinofanart.jpg)
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1. Having insomnia and nothing useful to do.
2. Having insomnia and knowing you are going to have to wake up in less than four hours... and counting.
Having insomnia to the point where your thought s and your actions stp making sense. exaample: not putting #3 on a list with threee entries.
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These 3 packets lost are my three most hated things :(
--- laanx.fragnetics.com ping statistics ---
3 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 2002ms
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Originally posted by yayoo
I want to add Liverpool the scum of England.
Ever been to Liverpool? ...its quite a nice place
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The german language
Thought provoking threads
Thread hijacking/derailing
Now about Yayoo\'s america hatred:
Your reasons to hate americans are sparse and subjective.
All responses from Americans:
Your reasons to protect america are based upon false ideals. You call your country a democracy, which i don\'t believe it\'s ever been. You have a republic where only the vast majority can be represented. Your cabinet of politicians is too big.
besides i don\'t believe in a presidential republic :)
Disclaimer: This post is most likely containing subjective arguments. Please don\'t burn danish flags if you\'re insulted by this.. ;)
No further derailing from me here
Regards Jeppe
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Originally posted by Sharakaz
You have a republic where only the vast majority can be represented.
I won\'t burn danish flags. However, I do have one question, how is the above quoted a bad thing.
Disclaimer: I am not American.
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Originally posted by Celebrimor
Originally posted by Sharakaz
You have a republic where only the vast majority can be represented.
I won\'t burn danish flags. However, I do have one question, how is the above quoted a bad thing.
Disclaimer: I am not American.
Keyword: vast
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I guess I\'ll jump on the bandwagon, now that it seems to be grinding to a halt.
1. The word \"Owned\" or any variations such as \"Al capowned\" \"Pwned\" or \"Ownage\". Seriously, come up with a new catch phrase; this ones been here since the Quake days.
Hmm, I think that\'s the only thing I really hate. I don\'t really hate any people of any kind. Even racists. When you hate racists, and you immediately hold any negative sentiments against them without getting to know why they act that way, don\'t you yourself begin discriminating?
I\'m not going to go off on a wild tangent about love and equality but I will say this: Everyone has a reason for feeling a certain way. Not everyone is a brainless creep hellbent on world domination. If you don\'t give someone a chance to explain themselves, why are you even talking to them?
But yeah, the word owned is the only thing I really hate. And I really don\'t even hate it that much.
Ooh wait.
2. Kiern. Well not really, it\'s just funny to poke and prod him.
3. Broccoli. Because it\'s so hard to spell. Actually Scratch it. The person who gave broccoli it\'s english name. That\'s better. Wait. I\'ve contradicted myself. Now I have to do research on the guy who invented the word broccoli. Drats, being so open minded is a terrible strain on the google searching. X(
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1. any kind of meat
2. uv-mapping
3. my portuguese teacher (really, she\'s the devil... makes fun of us if we get an answer wrong... etc -.-\')
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I\'m a pretty optomistic person, but I\'m sorry, I live in america, try to follow politics, and I\'d like to add something for this \"I hate america because of the president\" guy.
First of all you must understand how america\'s government works. They are really good at making you believe yur free when you\'re actually not. For instance, it may look like we can \"vote\" for our next president, but actually, we can only vote for one of three people who have been selected for us; a republican, a democrat, and an independant (although as far as I\'ve seen, nobody ever knows who the independant actually is, and so it seems like we only have a choice between the republican and the democrat).
Now, what most people from other countries don\'t realize, is that the majrity of the people in the US voted for Kerry, the democrat. But see, every state is worth a number of \"points\" and Bush just happened to win over those states worth more points. And in fact, it only came down to one state to change the stakes, because it was the closest run we\'ve had in a log time.
Sorry for dragging this on...^_^
Have a good day everyone!
oh yeah:
1. addicts
2. religion (the practice not the history)
3. the goverment (no, I\'m not an anarchist)
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Actually, Bush lost both elections. The first time, the election results were overruled by the Republican-controlled Supreme Court, and they appointed Bush. The second time, the electronic voting booths were rigged to show Bush as a winner.
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*agrees with first statement*
I think the rigging may be an opinion though *frowns* I can\'t remember them ever proving that, but I\'m not sure.
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Originally posted by yayoo
1.American\'s
Thats cold, you can\'t even spell the plural for Americans right X(
And yet i\'m 90% sure you\'re one of those people who judge Americans by our clowns for political people.
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Originally posted by Kiern
Originally posted by Celebrimor
Originally posted by Sharakaz
You have a republic where only the vast majority can be represented.
I won\'t burn danish flags. However, I do have one question, how is the above quoted a bad thing.
Disclaimer: I am not American.
Keyword: vast
vast
adj., vast?er, vast?est.
1. Very great in size, number, amount, or quantity.
2. Very great in area or extent; immense.
3. Very great in degree or intensity. See synonyms at enormous.
n. Archaic.
An immense space.
Edit: forgot to add:
[Latin vastus.]
vastly adv.
vastness n.
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1- America\'s foreign policy (do what you want in the US but dont mess up the world plz)
2- most religious people (those who dont obey things as dont hate, forgive, dont kill, dont be such a dumbass etc.. that are in all religions)
3- hatred
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Originally posted by leji
1- America\'s foreign policy (do what you want in the US but dont mess up the world plz)
Yay, someone who actually understands why our country sucks.
-shifty glance-
But yes, our foreign policy does suck.
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1 very religious people (be an individual)
2 people who don\'t eat meat (my dad is a butcher ;) and it\'s completely natural)
3 people who can\'t spell, I\'m a real spelling freak.
About the \"I hate America\" issue:
I don\'t hate the US, but I really wouldn\'t like to live there, because:
1 Education there is really bad compared to Europe,
Bush even proposed in his State of the Union to cut down on the education expenses to increase the defense expenses! Wow, that\'ll really do the US good...
2 The huge and enormous murder rate, watch Bowling for Columbine for more info. Really, in the 17 years that I live I can only think of 1 guy being killed in my region.
3 Foreign policy, just look at Bush\'s response to Europe\'s Galileo project:
europe: Yes! We\'re going to build an alternative to the GPS system!
bush: I want to control it.
europe: eh, what!?
bush: Terrorist might abuse it, so I want to be able to shut it down whenever I feel like it.
europe: Are you retarded?
bush: yes, now may I control it?
europe: like, NO!
bush: those europeans X(
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Hi
To Karyuu:
1. Nuuu! It\'s a murder.
2. Hmm, should this be read as chemistry or water? Or both? :)
To Lordbug:
2. UV-mapping. \\o/ I\'ve provided lodging for many pre-owned uv-mapping tasks. They\'re decent folk once you get to know them. *whispers secretly* Least Squares Conforming Map (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro/UV_Map_Basics).
*edits*
To ThomPhoenix: Well hello there Karyuu. Anyway, somebody may be afraid of water. Not everyone can swim for example. I was interested because I used to love chemistry. I still have a poster of periodic table of the elements on my wall. :)
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Water ofcourse, she obviously means that the cat in her avatar doesn\'t like it :D
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
1 Education there is really bad compared to Europe,
Bush even proposed in his State of the Union to cut down on the education expenses to increase the defense expenses! Wow, that\'ll really do the US good...
2 The huge and enormous murder rate, watch Bowling for Columbine for more info. Really, in the 17 years that I live I can only think of 1 guy being killed in my region.
You know, this all depends on where you live. Of all the places I go to regularly, none of this is true. Education is great, the schools are very competitive, and everyone can generally spell well. As far as murder goes, where I am currently living in Texas, I can\'t remember a murder in the last few years. And my previous home I\'m pretty sure there was NEVER a murder. Just use common sense (which I hope you would anyways), don\'t go in the bad part of town if there is one, etc..and you have absolutely nothing to fear. In fact probably less, depending on your age and gender. I go all over the place in Texas, and have never ran into any real trouble.
Unfortunately people like to listen to biased statistics that wouldn\'t effect you if you actually came here, or listen to the television.
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1. My country (america)i\'d much rather live in canada
2. people who say that americans are just as bad as their country
3.people who as stupid questions
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You know, this all depends on where you live. Of all the places I go to regularly, none of this is true. Education is great, the schools are very competitive, and everyone can generally spell well. As far as murder goes, where I am currently living in Texas, I can\'t remember a murder in the last few years. And my previous home I\'m pretty sure there was NEVER a murder. Just use common sense (which I hope you would anyways), don\'t go in the bad part of town if there is one, etc..and you have absolutely nothing to fear. In fact probably less, depending on your age and gender. I go all over the place in Texas, and have never ran into any real trouble.
But ofcourse that\'s true for every part of the world. I just remember from the movie Bowling for Columbine that the murderrate in the US (even relatively seen) is much higher than any country in Europe. And the good schools, well, it\'s what you\'re used to ofcourse. I know that some schools in the US actually give bowling for gym class, I mean _bowling_ come on! And how much languages are you tought? In my country I got Dutch, English, French, German, Spanish and Latin, from what I\'ve heard you don\'t get as much languages on US schools.
By the way, is it ofcourse or of course?
Everyone says ofcourse but dictionary says of course, me spelling freak again yeah :D
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
But ofcourse that\'s true for every part of the world. I just remember from the movie Bowling for Columbine that the murderrate in the US (even relatively seen) is much higher than any country in Europe. And the good schools, well, it\'s what you\'re used to ofcourse. I know that some schools in the US actually give bowling for gym class, I mean _bowling_ come on! And how much languages are you tought? In my country I got Dutch, English, French, German, Spanish and Latin, from what I\'ve heard you don\'t get as much languages on US schools.
By the way, is it ofcourse or of course?
Everyone says ofcourse but dictionary says of course, me spelling freak again yeah :D
Yes, it is true for every part of the world, that is exactly what I\'m saying. It\'s stupid to say you don\'t want to live in America because of what certain parts of the country are like when you can go somewhere else in America and never experience that. Just as stupid as it would be for me to say France sucks because I had a bad experience in Paris.
And it is not \"what I\'m used to\", I\'ve met just as many idiots from other countries as I have from America on these boards. (I am not calling you an idiot, by the way) However, if you\'re going to take what an EXTREMELY biased movie says as fact, I have to wonder...I am so sick of pseudo-intellectuals, which is unfortunatly the majority on the interweb.
I don\'t see how what GYM class teaches has any effect on the education of the school\'s students. Neither does how many languages you speak. Generally you can learn Spanish, French, or German maybe Italian or some other languages depending on the school...but you only have to learn Spanish as far as I know. Latin may be nice to know, but is not required to actually speak to anyone, so it is a dying language and is no longer taught in most schools.
And it is \"of course\" I\'ve never even heard of the spelling \"ofcourse\". http://www.spellcheck.net
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
You know, this all depends on where you live. Of all the places I go to regularly, none of this is true. Education is great, the schools are very competitive, and everyone can generally spell well. As far as murder goes, where I am currently living in Texas, I can\'t remember a murder in the last few years. And my previous home I\'m pretty sure there was NEVER a murder. Just use common sense (which I hope you would anyways), don\'t go in the bad part of town if there is one, etc..and you have absolutely nothing to fear. In fact probably less, depending on your age and gender. I go all over the place in Texas, and have never ran into any real trouble.
But ofcourse that\'s true for every part of the world. I just remember from the movie Bowling for Columbine that the murderrate in the US (even relatively seen) is much higher than any country in Europe. And the good schools, well, it\'s what you\'re used to ofcourse. I know that some schools in the US actually give bowling for gym class, I mean _bowling_ come on! And how much languages are you tought? In my country I got Dutch, English, French, German, Spanish and Latin, from what I\'ve heard you don\'t get as much languages on US schools.
By the way, is it ofcourse or of course?
Everyone says ofcourse but dictionary says of course, me spelling freak again yeah :D
Heres a though we might have more murders per year but we had less deaths through our first 2.1cens then any other country
and on topic
MMORPG\'s that classitfy spears and polearms in differnt categories, obviously a spear is a blade on the end of a pole which is what a polearm is!
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Originally posted by Kiern However, if you\'re going to take what an EXTREMELY biased movie says as fact, I have to wonder...I am so sick of pseudo-intellectuals, which is unfortunatly the majority on the interweb.
Sadly Michael Moore productions seems very appealing to european citizens. He raises a few good points or three. But he overdoes the american-critism by explicitly including his own opinion everywhere. If he had stayed 100% objective i would think he actually would be quite believable.
Conclussion: I don\'t believe any conclussion comming from a michael moore film.
That said, i\'m a follower of strict gun control and i don\'t like the current American governments foreign policy :)
Regards Jeppe
damn.. seems i broke my promise of not speaking anymore about anti-americanism in this thread :(
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Originally posted by Kiern
Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
1 Education there is really bad compared to Europe,
Bush even proposed in his State of the Union to cut down on the education expenses to increase the defense expenses! Wow, that\'ll really do the US good...
2 The huge and enormous murder rate, watch Bowling for Columbine for more info. Really, in the 17 years that I live I can only think of 1 guy being killed in my region.
You know, this all depends on where you live. Of all the places I go to regularly, none of this is true. Education is great, the schools are very competitive, and everyone can generally spell well. As far as murder goes, where I am currently living in Texas, I can\'t remember a murder in the last few years. And my previous home I\'m pretty sure there was NEVER a murder. Just use common sense (which I hope you would anyways), don\'t go in the bad part of town if there is one, etc..and you have absolutely nothing to fear. In fact probably less, depending on your age and gender. I go all over the place in Texas, and have never ran into any real trouble.
Unfortunately people like to listen to biased statistics that wouldn\'t effect you if you actually came here, or listen to the television.
The Boston School system is poor if you arent smart, but there are 2 schools, Boston Latin Academy (2nd best high school in city) and Boston Latin School (considered to be best in country by some) that are free to intelligent people. One person from BLA (where I go) gets a full scholarship to Harvard, 6- 8 get full scholarships to Berklee College of Music. At BLS about 2-3 people make it to harvard, and half the music classes make it to Berklee. It depends on area, luckily I was educated at a young age and made it into Latin Academy.
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Originally posted by dragonfire999
Originally posted by Kiern
Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
1 Education there is really bad compared to Europe,
Bush even proposed in his State of the Union to cut down on the education expenses to increase the defense expenses! Wow, that\'ll really do the US good...
2 The huge and enormous murder rate, watch Bowling for Columbine for more info. Really, in the 17 years that I live I can only think of 1 guy being killed in my region.
You know, this all depends on where you live. Of all the places I go to regularly, none of this is true. Education is great, the schools are very competitive, and everyone can generally spell well. As far as murder goes, where I am currently living in Texas, I can\'t remember a murder in the last few years. And my previous home I\'m pretty sure there was NEVER a murder. Just use common sense (which I hope you would anyways), don\'t go in the bad part of town if there is one, etc..and you have absolutely nothing to fear. In fact probably less, depending on your age and gender. I go all over the place in Texas, and have never ran into any real trouble.
Unfortunately people like to listen to biased statistics that wouldn\'t effect you if you actually came here, or listen to the television.
The Boston School system is poor if you arent smart, but there are 2 schools, Boston Latin Academy (2nd best high school in city) and Boston Latin School (considered to be best in country by some) that are free to intelligent people. One person from BLA (where I go) gets a full scholarship to Harvard, 6- 8 get full scholarships to Berklee College of Music. At BLS about 2-3 people make it to harvard, and half the music classes make it to Berklee. It depends on area, luckily I was educated at a young age and made it into Latin Academy.
I fortunitly live in a small city,in Texas, that is by Arlington, Dallas, and Fort Worth, We get reconized every couple of years nation wide, most of the time for good, which is pretty cool. Little hint American idol
And actually I do believed we have best education world wide because why else would alot people come to USA to leARN AND GET DEGREES
AND on topic
BEST FREIND SYNDROME
-then ruining it by go telling her you love her and you have an akward friendship then out.
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Originally posted by nightstalian
I fortunitly live in a small city,in Texas, that is by Arlington, Dallas, and Fort Worth, We get reconized every couple of years nation wide, most of the time for good, which is pretty cool.
Would that be Mansfield? That\'s where I used to live.
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Originally posted by Kiern
Originally posted by nightstalian
I fortunitly live in a small city,in Texas, that is by Arlington, Dallas, and Fort Worth, We get reconized every couple of years nation wide, most of the time for good, which is pretty cool.
Would that be Mansfield? That\'s where I used to live.
no think of American Idol
And on topic
-Who think everythhing in america is bad
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reverse order of importance
1. leaving behind the people who care, be it reasons of a personal nature, or that of being pushed to limits by others.
2. not being able to talk to friends left behind, for unwanted attention and harrassment.
3. arguing with the one person I care about most and upsetting her.
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hahaaha if you wanna know why people dontlike americans or think some of themare stupid
http://www.campusbreak.com/?x=moviewatch&media=americanmorons
this video just highlights american stupididy.
they think australia is alot of other countries lol.
I dont have anything against america,i think its a great country, though their accent and some stupididy can be annoying.
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Originally posted by davo
hahaaha if you wanna know why people dontlike americans or think some of themare stupid
http://www.campusbreak.com/?x=moviewatch&media=americanmorons
this video just highlights american stupididy.
they think australia is alot of other countries lol.
I dont have anything against america,i think its a great country, though their accent and some stupididy can be annoying.
no we don\'t lets all go to a country find a ignorant/stupid group of people and flim them and lets see how it reflects on the country
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i know, i wasnt speaking on behalf of myself.
all countries have idiots, i was just poiting out a possible reason why.
btw, the video is kinda scarey and pretty damn stupid :S
lol those particular americans in a war would bomb australia for godds sake....:S
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Wouldn\'t you know it, the USA came up in the 3 most hated things thread. Now really, out of all the ills of the world the USA is in the top three?
Number one, not knowing what I don\'t know. I really hate that. Just does not seem to be anyway of knowing what I don\'t know.
Two, when evil sneaks up behind me and catchs me off gaurd. Pretending to be my friend then, stabbing me in the back. I hate that. I need to grow eyes in the back of my head!
Three, greed, we all learned how to share in Kindergarden, even our flawed public school system taught that. What happened?
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Yes, it is true for every part of the world, that is exactly what I\'m saying. It\'s stupid to say you don\'t want to live in America because of what certain parts of the country are like when you can go somewhere else in America and never experience that. Just as stupid as it would be for me to say France sucks because I had a bad experience in Paris.
Well, I didn\'t say the entire US is bad, just because some parts are bad. I just don\'t like the fact that you can go to your local supermarket and buy some bullets. Still I do not hate the US. When I said that education there is bad I mean the High Schools. US\'s universities are probably the best in the world. I\'m studying economy and I\'m hoping to go to Harvard Business School one day (really hoping). I\'m not saying the US sucks, I thinks it\'s a great country, but I wouldn\'t like to live there, because of certain aspects.
And it is not \"what I\'m used to\", I\'ve met just as many idiots from other countries as I have from America on these boards. (I am not calling you an idiot, by the way) However, if you\'re going to take what an EXTREMELY biased movie says as fact, I have to wonder...I am so sick of pseudo-intellectuals, which is unfortunatly the majority on the interweb.
I didn\'t call Americans idiots.
Your opinion might be that BfC is a biased movie, I think it\'s not. I\'m really not just copying Michael Moore\'s ideas, I think he has some really valid points, especially about the fact that you can buy guns everywhere. As a european who has never in his life seen or heard a gun, that just scares me.
don\'t see how what GYM class teaches has any effect on the education of the school\'s students. Neither does how many languages you speak. Generally you can learn Spanish, French, or German maybe Italian or some other languages depending on the school...but you only have to learn Spanish as far as I know. Latin may be nice to know, but is not required to actually speak to anyone, so it is a dying language and is no longer taught in most schools.
About the gym classes, you can tell from them how much the school cares for its students. In my opinion every self-respecting school shouldn\'t give bowling as gym class, I mean, you wouldn\'t want to make people fat and unhealthy, do you? And the languages, it\'s really handy you know, even latin, you can derive many words from Latin and you\'ll finally know what those strange words on a medicine mean. But the most important thing about latin of course is that you\'ll be able to translate Acraigs signature :D
And it is \"of course\" I\'ve never even heard of the spelling \"ofcourse\". http://www.spellcheck.net
Just google ofcourse, and you\'ll see how many people use ofcourse, that confused me. I searched a dictionary for of course, but it automatically ignored the of and searched for course. Thanks for the answer and the website.
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
I just don\'t like the fact that you can go to your local supermarket and buy some bullets. Still I do not hate the US. When I said that education there is bad I mean the High Schools.
Fair enough. At least that is a real reason. I disagree with you about gun control (note: I neither own nor know how to shoot a gun, probably never will), but that is really just personal preference. As for the High Schools, they are mainly what I was talking about.
, I think he has some really valid points, especially about the fact that you can buy guns everywhere. As a european who has never in his life seen or heard a gun, that just scares me.
Again, I can\'t argue with this, but it\'s not really what you said at the beginning. I\'m just saying don\'t believe the statistics, not that you can\'t agree with the idea behind them.
About the gym classes, you can tell from them how much the school cares for its students. In my opinion every self-respecting school shouldn\'t give bowling as gym class, I mean, you wouldn\'t want to make people fat and unhealthy, do you? And the languages, it\'s really handy you know, even latin, you can derive many words from Latin and you\'ll finally know what those strange words on a medicine mean. But the most important thing about latin of course is that you\'ll be able to translate Acraigs signature :D
I can see their use, I\'m still of the opinion it really has no bearing on \"education\", because you can still LEARN them...it is just not required in schools. Also, for the record, I\'ve never seen bowling taught in High School though I know it is in some college\'s. Which is reasonable, after all, you are paying an incredible amount of money so you should be able to choose your classes.
Just google ofcourse, and you\'ll see how many people use ofcourse, that confused me. I searched a dictionary for of course, but it automatically ignored the of and searched for course. Thanks for the answer and the website.
Ah, well since \"of\" and \"course\" are two seperate words it won\'t show up in a dictionary. That is why I like spellcheck, it can check a lot of words at once.
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
2 people who don\'t eat meat (my dad is a butcher ;) and it\'s completely natural)
It\'s not natural. We can\'t digest meat properly. It\'s cruel to animals. It\'s unhealthy. Just because something is natural, doesn\'t make it right. We\'re human beings, we have the mental capacity to choose. It\'s immoral. It\'s not environmentally friendly. Raising livestock wastes water and grain. It pollutes fresh water resources. It\'s destroying the rain forest. It\'s causing an obesity epidemic.
And so on.
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And oh Zanzibar, I guess I am the incarnation of evil on earth for not feeling guilty with every bite of meat I eat.
No really the human is an omnivore, crap you dont go and cry about all the poor plancton that gets eaten by whales.
On another thought, Brocolli\'s a live-form to, as every other vegetable or fruit, so yeah should we all starve to death because not doing so would be immoral?
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Originally posted by Cyl
And oh Zanzibar, I guess I am the incarnation of evil on earth for not feeling guilty with every bite of meat I eat.
You do evil things, but I don\'t think that you\'re evil. You\'re just wilfully ignorant.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by Cyl
And oh Zanzibar, I guess I am the incarnation of evil on earth for not feeling guilty with every bite of meat I eat.
You do evil things, but I don\'t think that you\'re evil. You\'re just wilfully ignorant.
Maybe so, but I do quite fine that way.
Ignorance is the greatest gift of the human races. Without it it would devour itself because of guilt.
Well still the question stands, isnt it immoral to eat brocolli?
What some people seem to oversee is that humanity is part of nature.
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Originally posted by Cyl
Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by Cyl
And oh Zanzibar, I guess I am the incarnation of evil on earth for not feeling guilty with every bite of meat I eat.
You do evil things, but I don\'t think that you\'re evil. You\'re just wilfully ignorant.
Maybe so, but I do quite fine that way.
Ignorance is the greatest gift of the human races. Without it it would devour itself because of guilt.
Well still the question stands, isnt it immoral to eat brocolli?
Brocolli doesn\'t have conciousness.
Like I said, you\'re wilfully ignorant. Your actions hurt others as well as yourself, and you pride yourself in not caring. There are other words to describe that mentality...
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Originally posted by Cherppow
To Lordbug:
2. UV-mapping. \\o/ I\'ve provided lodging for many pre-owned uv-mapping tasks. They\'re decent folk once you get to know them. *whispers secretly* Least Squares Conforming Map (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro/UV_Map_Basics).
Can I change uv-mapping to reading tuturials? (still I read that :P)
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This isn\'t a discussion about politics, vegetarianism/veganism, etc. Somehow this always happens, and it doesn\'t end nicely. Cyl, if you want an answer to that, just seach online. Seriously :P There are way too many arguments made out there to drag them into here, too. If you want I\'ll even give you links.
On a semi-related note, Arrogant Worms\' \"Carrot Juice Is Murder\" is one of the greatest songs in the world.
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On America:
Yes, we are a violent gun obsessed culture. I don\'t particularly see this as all that bad. Statistically it\'s a drop in the bucket compared to the fact that we\'re a car obsessed culture. Dying in a car accident, or being hit as a pedestrian is what you should be worrying about statistically speaking. This applies no matter where you live.
Please don\'t confuse ignorance with stupidity. The first is ostensibly easier to correct.
On pole-arms:
Technically, a spear is a subset of pole arms. I would probably consider there to be four different pole-arm fighting skills depending on whether it was optimized to being used for stabbing, swinging blade, swinging hammer, or pulling to dismount riders. Also, tactically most of the longer pole arms require formations to use effectively, which is another seperate skill from fighting out of formation
On vegetarianism:
I was a vegetarian for two years, and while I agree that it would probably be environmentally, and economically beneficial for everyone to switch over. I found it to be incompatible with being a Type I diabetic and controlling my blood sugars.
There are environmental niches where meat raising is possible where crop farming probably wouldn\'t be without a lot more cheap labor ( hillsides where terrace farming is not easy ).
I never really got into the issue from a moral standpoint. I mean, I don\'t think about swatting flies or eradicating cockroaches. Life is cruel sometimes. Should we care about every life equally?
On things I hate:
Polemicism, fanatacism, and zealotry.
Ultra-nationalism. Anti-ecumenicalism.
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There\'s a bit of a difference between a fly and a pig or cow.
Cats and dogs are practically family members, but people will take a baby cow, seperate it from its mother, and stick it in a dark cage until it\'s time to slaughter it and make veal.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
There\'s a bit of a difference between a fly and a pig or cow.
Cats and dogs are practically family members, but people will take a baby cow, seperate it from its mother, and stick it in a dark cage until it\'s time to slaughter it and make veal.
from a chirstian standpoint I have everyright to eat any animal.
On topic.
people who say my dicton is wrong,when I\'m right
(I have good Diction.)
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There\'s a bit of a difference between a fly and a pig or cow.
Sure there\'s a difference. Is it a difference of degree or kind? I\'ve noticed that cuteness seems to play more of a role in the treatment of animals than intelligence or consciousness. My feeling is that any distinction made between what is morally edible or not is in the end going to be an arbitrary boundary rather than a clear ethical one. I feel similarly about ethical boundaries for when a fetus is a life, and actually see a lot of parallels.
Nightstalian,
\"Then God said, \'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.\'\"
from a christian standpoint you have dominion over the animal kingdom ( as an aside one could argue that there is an implicit exception here for whales and dolphins, but I\'d say that for the purpose of this quote they are fish ). Christian moral philosophers have argued the point of christian stewarship, which implies that you have responsibilities to the animal kingdom and the earth as part of this concept. Would you argue that you have the right to kill and torture animals purposelessly, or only for the purposes of feeding the hungry and clothing the needy? What if it turns out that animals have souls, would we have more responsibility toward them from a christian perspective?
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Originally posted by Karyuu
This isn\'t a discussion about politics, vegetarianism/veganism, etc. Somehow this always happens, and it doesn\'t end nicely. Cyl, if you want an answer to that, just seach online. Seriously :P There are way too many arguments made out there to drag them into here, too. If you want I\'ll even give you links.
If you\'re going to allow this thread, you\'ve got to realize people are going to defend something they like while other people \"hate\" it.
Hate:
1. Depressing/whiny/pessimistic lyrics.
2. High-pitched singing.
3. Beef (Not all meat, just beef.)
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Originally posted by Kiern
If you\'re going to allow this thread, you\'ve got to realize people are going to defend something they like while other people \"hate\" it.
Indeed, I\'m just hoping it won\'t become a messy ordeal that will take over pages. I think my comment came too early; sorry about that.
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what a nice little, heated discussion you\'re all having n_n! *drippy sunshine*
i will add in my two cents now >:|
1 and 2. I hate everything ugly.
3. (Free cent :3)
Horay. Now you may return to your ugly arguing about ugly things amongst your ugly selves.
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Nightstalian,
\"Then God said, \'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.\'\"
from a christian standpoint you have dominion over the animal kingdom ( as an aside one could argue that there is an implicit exception here for whales and dolphins, but I\'d say that for the purpose of this quote they are fish ). Christian moral philosophers have argued the point of christian stewarship, which implies that you have responsibilities to the animal kingdom and the earth as part of this concept. Would you argue that you have the right to kill and torture animals purposelessly, or only for the purposes of feeding the hungry and clothing the needy? What if it turns out that animals have souls, would we have more responsibility toward them from a christian perspective?
[/QUOTE]
not toture, never torture animal only kill what you need to survive, NA philosophy
only kill to eat to clothe to shleter,
most would agree on that.
and on topic,
running out of things that I can say I hate
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Raising livestock wastes water and grain. It pollutes fresh water resources. It\'s destroying the rain forest. It\'s causing an obesity epidemic.
You can say the exact same thing about eating vegetables. Most of the rainforest is destroyed for either wood or farmland, only a small part for cattle. And meat is not causing obesity, most people don\'t know or are just being willfully ignorant but a good beef consists of very little fat. Obesity is much more caused because of sweets, candy, cookies, chips, cola and all the rest of that sugar crap.
Not to forget frites and those microwave meals from the freezer. Oh, and vegetables also require lots of resources, not to forget loads of poison to kill insects.
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1, I hate it when I\'m whistling and someone standing nearby gets the idea that he should join in, though not with the same tune. What gives you the right to remix my tune? :(
2, I hate words like neverending, infinity, eternity. They try to fool you by sounding cool but are really scary. What do you mean \"infinity\"? There has to be an end to everything!!! :(
3, I hate having to wash my mouth (lips) after eating chicken or something oily, and feeling how the whole area around my mouth gets oily as well. It makes me feel like a 1-year-old who still believes that you eat with your face... :(
There\'s too much evil in this world...
*tries to think a happy thought*
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
Raising livestock wastes water and grain. It pollutes fresh water resources. It\'s destroying the rain forest. It\'s causing an obesity epidemic.
You can say the exact same thing about eating vegetables.
You are absolutely wrong.
\"Another price we pay for meat eating is degradation of the environment. The heavily contaminated run-off from thousands of slaughterhouses and feedlots is a major source of water pollution. In their book \"Population, Resources and Environment\", Paul and Anne Ehrlich found that to grow one pound of wheat requires only 60 pounds of water, whereas production of a pound of meat requires anywhere from 2,500 to 6,000 pounds of water.\"
(http://krishna.org/ctfote/cow.html)
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Erm, that website is from the Hare Krishna movement and thus in my opinion not very trustworthy.
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
Erm, that website is from the Hare Krishna movement and thus in my opinion not very trustworthy.
Christian, Muslim, Hare Krishna, it\'s all the same to me.
http://www.mobileveggiefood.co.uk/FACTS.HTM
http://www.yellins.com/veg/vegetarian_facts.html
http://www.animalconnectiontx.org/food/vegfacts.htm
The information is repeated on those websites. Meat = over ten times as much water consumed compared to veggie diets.
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All those websites are vegetarian websites, can you also provide me with an objective website? :)
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
All those websites are vegetarian websites, can you also provide me with an objective website? :)
That\'s like saying that a website on black holes isn\'t \"objective\" because the information comes from astronomers.
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But you would be able to read their research.
Those vegetarian websites have got to get their numbers from some scientific research, I\'d like to see it.
But I have a slight feeling we\'re going off-topic :D
I said eating meat was natural, which it is, considering we\'ve been doing it for thousands of years. If it\'s good or not, that\'s a completely other thing. I\'m sure vegetarianism is better for nature than omnivorism, but it surely isn\'t holy. If everyone on the planet would eat as much as we \"civilised\" people do, we would be in deep trouble, even if everyone were to be vegetarian :P
Now go seed the new client! :D
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Rape is also natural and is observed in primates. That doesn\'t make it right.
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Raping - Eating
Apples - Banana\'s
Let\'s call it a draw, you can\'t convince me and I can\'t convince you. Let everyone who reads this discussion form his own opinion and let\'s get on-topic again. This is the 3 most hated things thread. If we don\'t watch out Karyuu will slap us. ;)
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
Raping - Eating
Apples - Banana\'s
Let\'s call it a draw, you can\'t convince me and I can\'t convince you. Let everyone who reads this discussion form his own opinion and let\'s get on-topic again. This is the 3 most hated things thread. If we don\'t watch out Karyuu will slap us. ;)
Dude. You said that eating meat is good because it\'s natural. Well, rape is natural. Are you saying that rape is a good thing? No, you aren\'t. No one in their right mind is.
Being natural doesn\'t make something good.
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People eat meat, animals eat meat, it\'s part of the circle of life! That\'s what I meant, rape isn\'t part of the circle of life. When I said that eating meat is natural I didn\'t immediately imply that every kind of animal or human behaviour is natural or good too. Look, let\'s just drop this, okay?
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1) lists containing more than one item
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Originally posted by Kiern
Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
1 Education there is really bad compared to Europe,
Bush even proposed in his State of the Union to cut down on the education expenses to increase the defense expenses! Wow, that\'ll really do the US good...
2 The huge and enormous murder rate, watch Bowling for Columbine for more info. Really, in the 17 years that I live I can only think of 1 guy being killed in my region.
You know, this all depends on where you live. Of all the places I go to regularly, none of this is true. Education is great, the schools are very competitive, and everyone can generally spell well. As far as murder goes, where I am currently living in Texas, I can\'t remember a murder in the last few years. And my previous home I\'m pretty sure there was NEVER a murder. Just use common sense (which I hope you would anyways), don\'t go in the bad part of town if there is one, etc..and you have absolutely nothing to fear. In fact probably less, depending on your age and gender. I go all over the place in Texas, and have never ran into any real trouble.
Unfortunately people like to listen to biased statistics that wouldn\'t effect you if you actually came here, or listen to the television.
I\'m sorry but schooling in America is really bad. I think it is both a societal, moral, and political failure really. Kids today in America do not generally care about doing their best. The majority that I have known are cheaters that would do anything to get ahead without doing any work. Many are also ignorant and feel like they have to give their brainless opinion on everything even though they don\'t understand it... Abortion, gay rights, cloning, etc.
There are certainly people in America who are not brainless idiots, but unfortunately they are not shown. It is the people that the inteligent Americans complain about, that the rest of the world also complains about.
It isn\'t their fault that those people exist. I personally blame the capitalist nature of the govenment that drives the moral decline.
I\'m sorry for the long rant. ^.^\' Bad day you know, but that is how I feel... unrestrained.
-Harena
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Originally posted by ThomPhoenix
People eat meat, animals eat meat, it\'s part of the circle of life! That\'s what I meant, rape isn\'t part of the circle of life. When I said that eating meat is natural I didn\'t immediately imply that every kind of animal or human behaviour is natural or good too. Look, let\'s just drop this, okay?
Rape used to be part of the circle of life too. It was responsible for procreation.
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1) people who believe in wrong things someone told them and who force people to think like them (for example Americans are stupid, Italianer are hot and Frenches are proud)
2) the way our society is destructing everything / the way people doesnt care about each others
3) everyone who have bad behaviours in front of my mother nature...
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Originally posted by HarenaAbdolor
I\'m sorry but schooling in America is really bad. I think it is both a societal, moral, and political failure really. Kids today in America do not generally care about doing their best. The majority that I have known are cheaters that would do anything to get ahead without doing any work. Many are also ignorant and feel like they have to give their brainless opinion on everything even though they don\'t understand it... Abortion, gay rights, cloning, etc.
There are certainly people in America who are not brainless idiots, but unfortunately they are not shown. It is the people that the inteligent Americans complain about, that the rest of the world also complains about.
It isn\'t their fault that those people exist. I personally blame the capitalist nature of the govenment that drives the moral decline.
I\'m sorry for the long rant. ^.^\' Bad day you know, but that is how I feel... unrestrained.
-Harena
You can argue that all you want, but I said it all depends on where you live, not that the schools here aren\'t bad. I\'ve lived in the US all my life, and have never been in a poor school system, all I was saying is that there are places you can go where that will not be a problem. I\'m not speaking in terms of \"all of the US\".
And Capitalism usually makes people try harder to be the best, your argument is all over the place. I could go on and on about the rest of your post but I won\'t change your mind on any of the other things. Let\'s just say you have the exact opposite views of politics and the society then me and I\'ll leave it at that. And suggested reading. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0976654423/sr=8-1/qid=1140828466/ref=sr_1_1/002-2556753-2275251?%5Fencoding=UTF8)
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The thing about America is that it\'s divided. You have the LA area, the New York area, and the Chicago area. These are centers of art, intellectualism, and modernism.
Then you have the rest of it. The \"south\", the \"middle America\". It\'s conservative, fundamentalist, even anti-intellectual at times.
Let\'s call the first part \"blue states\", for no real reason except to identify them. Let\'s call the latter area \"red states\", just because red is a different colour from blue.
There are other differences too. Fundamentalist Christianity, racism, and illiteracy are more common in the red states. Secularism, multiculturalism, and high art are more common in the blue states.
So yes, to say that all Americans are \"stupid\" is not a good thing to say. It\'s just certain demographics of them.
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zanzibar, I see that you list Fundamental Christianity along with racism and illiteracy. I\'m not sure I\'d have the courage to make that parallel. I\'m not sure that anti-intellectualism confines itself to red states; I\'d guess it\'s about equal. One thing you are missing is divorce in your stats. Nine of the top ten divorce states are red states.
ThomPhoenix, Here are some sites that are non-vegetarian from which you can estimate the relative value of soy vs. beef. I particularly like the first link, which tells us days of protein requirements per acre of use. 2224 soy vs. 77 beef.
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:V7wuAuizsZ0J:www.spcouncil.org/ecofutur.html+protein+per+acre+soy+vs+wheat&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a
http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/ansci/beef/eb74w.htm
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/agec2/mf2123.pdf
I am no longer a vegetarian, but I cannot defend my meat eating ways from an environmental or moral perspective.
Eating meat may be natural in the context of a hunter-gatherer society, but in a post-agricultural society it is somewhat ridiculous. Very few of us exert enough energy on a day to day basis to justify our extreme caloric intake. This applies not just to meat, but also to processed foods loaded with high-fructose corn syrup.
Of particular interest to me when I was a vegetarian was the fact that mushrooms have a higher density of protein by weight than beef.
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Milk and meat are not a source of good nutrition. There\'s just so much marketting and propoganda, that most people have been fooled.
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1. Freshman (though in all fairness there are 5 that I would put my life on the line to protect in a class of abou 2 or 3 hundred. The rest of them should be let lose in an open field for Juniors and Seniors to hunt, or better yet given to Shai\'Hulud for judgement...)
2. Written language (It\'s hard enough to display the proper connotations and annotations in face to face communications, although I am an English weenie and love nothing more than talking and writing)
3. Runescape (need I say more?)
@This irrational bias against Americans because of our education and political systems... You must keep in mind that though we are not the melting pot we wish we were we still are made up primarily of ex-Europeans. Also, keep in mind that our government and country is still in its younger stages in the passages of time. When was the last time you met a 5 year old that didn\'t grate on your nerves fairly often that wasn\'t you child? And yes we do like to stick our noses in where they don\'t belong as the number of us who have replied have proven. Don\'t get me wrong I\'m not supporting many of the things our government has done but blaming the people for this is unfair imature and as the Canadian comedy \"The Red Green Show\" stated most of the worlds wars have started because of immature people who are too close together.
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I never expected to see such a heated political debate of american issues on PS.
I stick by what I have said however, because I have had the experience of knowing a very terrible school district. I realize that it is not all over the place. But where I live it is horrible. Teachers are underpaid and the FCAT is always a big issue.
The state I live in is the 48 in education out of 50 states. I\'m sorry if I feel that the system has failed me. I just resent the fact that in Europe there are people my age who can speak 4 languages fluently and I\'m barely able to order a meal in spanish... the only other language besides English that I know.
*breathes*
The reason I have something against capitalism is because it is not used as it should be. Instead of bettering the lives of people all across the classes, it simply serves to widen the gap between the richest and the poorest people in the USA. Also with capitalism vs. socialism the poor and lowerclass are not as taken care of. People can also \"work the system\" and take advantage of the government to great extents. To ignore these problems would be tragic in most cases.
I have nothing against the people. I am one of them. I just want to find the flaws and correct them as best as we possibly can. After all, our history has always called for us to do so.
Harena
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lmao how can you hate america, considering it is one of the best countries in the world, i wouldent mind living there, and i would certainly be proud to be an american if i was one (and i dont give a damn what george bush was doing or the education system cause that has nothing to do with pride).
Obviously i think australia is the best country because i am an aussie and itds the only country to whome i belong, but america is still good.
I dont think anyone has ever hated countries \\those muslim countries or any poor countries/violent ones.
i guess hating muslim countries would aparently be \'racist\' so no one goes there lol.
[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]
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Dude. You said that eating meat is good because it\'s natural. Well, rape is natural. Are you saying that rape is a good thing? No, you aren\'t. No one in their right mind is.
Being natural doesn\'t make something good.
[/QUOTE]
to bring more fact on the wild it isn\'t rape, it is how they mate, almost all animals do it that way.
Originally posted by zanzibar
Milk and meat are not a source of good nutrition. There\'s just so much marketting and propoganda, that most people have been fooled.
that is where you are wrong, Meat provides us with source of protein, good calories and fat which the body needs to matian healthy. Plus soy and soy related products are more expensive then most meat atleast where I live.
and on topic
1.people who think animals are our equals. Heres the thing they lost that when we discover how to use fire, for the sciencetific comunity, or when God declared us to rule over them and use there flesh to fed us etc, for the Jew, Chirstian, and Muslim societies out there
2. Bush
3.Bush supporters
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1. Extremely self-involved people
2. Intolerance (Yes, I know that by saying so I\'m being intolerant but... *shrugs* I\'ll worry about it at a later stage of my life :D hmm... that being said, I guess I should\'ve included hypocrisy on my list. Unfortunately there\'s no room)
3. And finally: Finland losing the olympic gold to Canada in curling =(
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vegetarism
... is a bad thing. We western countries have a society where the amount of farms is decreasing. The products have to compete to have best prices. To do so they have to optimize their production.
To optimize this production you have to use chemicals(to accelerate growth, limit height, eliminate bacterium, etc..). These chemicals are pretty bad to the environments. They pollute the water supply and if they get in contact with water environments you could very easily have a luring danger for extermination of big sealife-isotopes.
This has happened very many places around here in Denmark. The rivers and a heckload of lakes around spread all over the place all signs of fish has vanished. All because of the greedy farmers.. :(
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Originally posted by Jakob
This irrational bias against Americans because of our education and political systems.
When you put it that way, it doesn\'t sound so irrational.:)
There\'s more to it than that though.... think Haiiti, Cuba, Veneuzualla, Iraq, Iran, vietnam, The Taliban, Guatamalla, Cuba, Chile..... the CIA has been a blessing to the world I tell you.
Originally posted by nightstalian
that is where you are wrong, Meat provides us with source of protein, good calories and fat which the body needs to matian healthy. Plus soy and soy related products are more expensive then most meat atleast where I live.
No, because the way people eat meat is incredibly unhealthy. Plus, meat and meat products contain complex carbohydrates that we can\'t properly digest, and there\'s all the chemicals and steroids and pus and blood and disease. Give me a plate full of tofu any day!
(And if you think that soy is too expensive... tell that to the Chinese!)
Originally posted by nightstalian
and on topic
1.people who think animals are our equals. Heres the thing they lost that when we discover how to use fire, for the sciencetific comunity, or when God declared us to rule over them and use there flesh to fed us etc, for the Jew, Chirstian, and Muslim societies out there
4. Religious fundamentalists.
5. Pseudo-science.
6. Social-Darwinism.
Originally posted by Reor
1. Extremely self-involved people
2. Intolerance (Yes, I know that by saying so I\'m being intolerant but... *shrugs* I\'ll worry about it at a later stage of my life :D hmm... that being said, I guess I should\'ve included hypocrisy on my list. Unfortunately there\'s no room)
3. And finally: Finland losing the olympic gold to Canada in curling =(
Yeah, well we lost men\'s hockey so it all evens out in the end.
Originally posted by Sharakaz
vegetarism
... is a bad thing. We western countries have a society where the amount of farms is decreasing. The products have to compete to have best prices. To do so they have to optimize their production.
Vegetarianism has nothing to do with it. The problems are:
i) Globalization
ii) Corporations that are out competing smaller operations.
iii) Over-fishing.
iv) Environmental damage.
v) The fact that it isn\'t a sustainable industry in the first place.
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Can we NOT bring god into this?!!! Baseing your justifications on religion are not well founded when people do not share the same ideology. So please keep that in mind.
Harena
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This thread\'s name should be changed to \"nonsensical rambling on diverse subjects\" or something like that... >_>
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Originally posted by HarenaAbdolor
Can we NOT bring god into this?!!! Baseing your justifications on religion are not well founded when people do not share the same ideology. So please keep that in mind.
Harena
Amen..
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Originally posted by zanzibar
No, because the way people eat meat is incredibly unhealthy. Plus, meat and meat products contain complex carbohydrates that we can\'t properly digest, and there\'s all the chemicals and steroids and pus and blood and disease. Give me a plate full of tofu any day!
(And if you think that soy is too expensive... tell that to the Chinese!)
Excuse me but I tend to eat very healthy, when it comes to meat, I don\'t eat alot of fried foods tend to increase my acne, I tned to eat my eat with vegies herbs and spices, expect for steak whitch I eat grilled with pastal,
and if you think vegiterism is good for moral reason then who\'s not ot say that plants have souls and feelings too
Originally posted by Sharakaz
Originally posted by HarenaAbdolor
Can we NOT bring god into this?!!! Baseing your justifications on religion are not well founded when people do not share the same ideology. So please keep that in mind.
Harena
Amen..
I just thought this was ironic,
and on topic
when people make fun of my speech impediment, even if they\'re just joking
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Vegetables aren\'t food... They\'re food\'s food...
Sorry, I couldn\'t resist... I don\'t have anything against vegetarianism. One of my best friends is vegetarian so herbivores and omnivores can live together in harmony, but I can\'t imagine how boring it would be to be one of them people who won\'t eat eggs or dairt products either...
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Well, I try to not hate, but these are the things that I currently dislike a great deal.
1. Discrimination.
2. Men.
3. Insomnia.
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Originally posted by nightstalian
who\'s not ot say that plants have souls and feelings too
Who will say that plants aren\'t sentient? Anyone with a brain, for starters.
Originally posted by Jakob
Vegetables aren\'t food... They\'re food\'s food...
Sorry, I couldn\'t resist... I don\'t have anything against vegetarianism. One of my best friends is vegetarian so herbivores and omnivores can live together in harmony, but I can\'t imagine how boring it would be to be one of them people who won\'t eat eggs or dairt products either...
My diet isn\'t at all boring when I don\'t want it to be. Even when it is boring - beans, rice, and vegetables - I think that there\'s a certain spiritual advantage to it.
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Also, for the record, I\'ve never seen bowling taught in High School though I know it is in some college\'s. Which is reasonable, after all, you are paying an incredible amount of money so you should be able to choose your classes.
Well that is the major difference between the European and the American education system.
In the US you are a \"client\" of the education establishment. (be it a college or high school). Which means that the school in question has to make money, e.g. be profitable since it is a business. A lot of American schools will overgrade their students in order to keep the \"grade quota\" up, despite the fact that the students in question lack the skill.
In the EU the education system is free, which means that everybody can get in and the school is not run like a business. However, it is a highly competitive system where the students have to have the skill in order to earn their grades and they have to study hard in order not to get dropped out of the system.
Also the student does not get to choose his classes, but follows a program layed out by his country\'s education ministery, and encompasses a very broad range of classes. The student will specialize more towards the end of his secondary school career and in university.
Also, keep in mind that our government and country is still in its younger stages in the passages of time. When was the last time you met a 5 year old that didn\'t grate on your nerves fairly often that wasn\'t you child?
All right ... I agree that you cannot compare the history of the US with the history of Europe. Europe was forged on blood and is way more mature today.
But the US is a dangerous child with couple of nuclear bombs and a bunch of complete idiots at the top.
What really outrages me is that the US gets involved in other sovereign countries internal policies. X(
now back to the topic:
1. Selfish people
2. Egocentric people
3. Argentinian crooks
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Originally posted by Aznakh
Well that is the major difference between the European and the American education system.
In the US you are a \"client\" of the education establishment. (be it a college or high school). Which means that the school in question has to make money, e.g. be profitable since it is a business. A lot of American schools will overgrade their students in order to keep the \"grade quota\" up, despite the fact that the students in question lack the skill.
In the EU the education system is free, which means that everybody can get in and the school is not run like a business. However, it is a highly competitive system where the students have to have the skill in order to earn their grades and they have to study hard in order not to get dropped out of the system.
Also the student does not get to choose his classes, but follows a program layed out by his country\'s education ministery, and encompasses a very broad range of classes. The student will specialize more towards the end of his secondary school career and in university.
As far as college\'s go you may have a good point. I think it is really up to preference though because I like the system we have here. If I choose to go to college, I\'m going to want to choose my classes and I am not going to like people telling me what I can and can\'t take. There is a core curriculum here, but really those classes don\'t matter much and can be completed before your second semester of college.
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Originally posted by Aznakh
Also, for the record, I\'ve never seen bowling taught in High School though I know it is in some college\'s. Which is reasonable, after all, you are paying an incredible amount of money so you should be able to choose your classes.
Well that is the major difference between the European and the American education system.
In the US you are a \"client\" of the education establishment. (be it a college or high school). Which means that the school in question has to make money, e.g. be profitable since it is a business. A lot of American schools will overgrade their students in order to keep the \"grade quota\" up, despite the fact that the students in question lack the skill.
In the EU the education system is free, which means that everybody can get in and the school is not run like a business. However, it is a highly competitive system where the students have to have the skill in order to earn their grades and they have to study hard in order not to get dropped out of the system.
Also the student does not get to choose his classes, but follows a program layed out by his country\'s education ministery, and encompasses a very broad range of classes. The student will specialize more towards the end of his secondary school career and in university.
Also, keep in mind that our government and country is still in its younger stages in the passages of time. When was the last time you met a 5 year old that didn\'t grate on your nerves fairly often that wasn\'t you child?
All right ... I agree that you cannot compare the history of the US with the history of Europe. Europe was forged on blood and is way more mature today.
But the US is a dangerous child with couple of nuclear bombs and a bunch of complete idiots at the top.
What really outrages me is that the US gets involved in other sovereign countries internal policies. X(
now back to the topic:
1. Selfish people
2. Egocentric people
3. Argentinian crooks
only private schools and colleges require you to pay money directly too them, if public it goes through taxes.
and on topic
love when it breaks your heart.
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Damn, too bad the list is restricted to 3:
1. Political correctness.
2. Those that would sicken or destroy my way of life, in any respect.
3. When the water goes ice cold as I\'m taking a shower.
(and an honorable mention goes to \"Moral Supremacy\" ;) )
Originally posted by Grindalyx
1. Discrimination.
2. Men.
*cough*hypocrite*cough*
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OK, why\'s this 7-8 pages wide? Hate (-threads) produces Hate (-posts) so please don\'t post more.
Many already \"hate\" each other for hating others and that\'s just bad.
Please don\'t post here anymore. I don\'t want this to be bigger as it (literally) is a pack\'a hatred. Now throw away package and don\'t moan on unsettled differences. We should have fun in this place instead of pulling in the darkest sides of humanity(hate = you dislike people when you haven\'t got enough facts).
I believe we make our own reality. We should all trust each other (distant, very distant dream) and if we wanna do that we shouldn\'t give a damn about our differences. Try to ask yourself why you you hate this/that person/country/culture/whateva!*me gasps*
We shouldn\'t give a sh*t! Giving a sh*t about other\'s differences and abnormalities just leads to people feeling bad(about themselves*why do I look like this**where they right?Am i not beautiful, do i look like a freak?*
OK, i guess i went a bit offtopic(don\'t mind the second time will ya, hehe) but i\'m saying we shouldn\'t speak of what our inner hatreds are. This is a fun forum and you will, in time, find out why you hated this and hated that and see that there was nothing, pure air. Every hatred is built on pure air in the end. Humans make faults, which can be misinterpreted.
That is, for example, black americans: Through the 16th and the middle of the 17th century black people were considered as property to their white \"owners\". They worked on the cotton fields, picking cotton day and evening being wipped by their landlords to work as hard as they can, just like they whip a horse(though more vile, and harder). During that century the black humans in america were considered thieving(might be, but what did they have to eat other then a small plate of soop for the whole family), and dirty creaures not even deserving a place in the pig-stie(How could they have gotten clean when they didn\'t even have a shower to go to and they sometimes had to work in the mud during the raining period)
The black people where liberated, though the victory was short as they now where used to working, with no education and no certain funds. What would they do? Back to work at the factories under lusy conditions. They were considered as to be the \"under-class\" amongst the white, just as cleaners and garbage are to us today.
The black men and women get partial education leading ot that black children can go to seperate \"black\" schools. Small parts of America\'s black population are educated and many others follow the ingrown tradition of being workers.
The students can\'t get jobs because of their skin color. Those who get one are often harassed by prejudicial white people who hate them.
Today the black people have come long in \"integrating into society\", but there still are some scratch marks :/ So don\'t make it bad by ripping up new rifts in the globalizing world! I\'m not blaiming anyone for anything, i\'m just...Oh i don\'t know. I\'m simply trying to \"warn\" before it\'s too late(damn can\'t find the word[\"f?rebygga\" in Swedish]) :)
*Edit* Hm, i don\'t know if I really sould have written this :D
[Not erasing away 1000 word post, oh no I wont :P]
Oh, and sorry for the typos...
*Edit* Dang, that\'s a long post O____o
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pop
microsoft
knowitalls and smart type playing persons
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:/ Oh well.
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Originally posted by Baldur
OK, why\'s this 7-8 pages wide? Hate (-threads) produces Hate (-posts) so please don\'t post more.
So by that rationale, someone exercising their hatred of Sunday drivers and long lines at the grocery store is \"bad\"? What about if one of the windows of your house came down hard on your hand? Would you hate that too?
(hate = you dislike people when you haven\'t got enough facts).
That argument, in addition to being patently false and cliche, rings hollow.
if we wanna do that we shouldn\'t give a damn about our differences.
You view the issue from an unbalanced viewpoint, plus which, that isn\'t a very good path to go down in the first place. Are you sure you want to lose your identity or that of your ancestors in a swirling muck?
Try to ask yourself why you you hate this/that person/country/culture/whateva!*me gasps*
If the answer isn\'t one that you\'re going to like, would you then fail to understand me?
We shouldn\'t give a sh*t! Giving a sh*t about other\'s differences and abnormalities just leads to people feeling bad(about themselves*why do I look like this**where they right?Am i not beautiful, do i look like a freak?*
Once again, you are viewing the issue from an unbalanced viewpoint, only focusing on a mental aspect of identity. Those that cannot handle the implications of it are not going to be \"cured\" by forgetting its there. In my opinion, as well, they need serious help.
Identity is the greatest thing that we have going for us. As Americans are concerned, It was such after the Revolutionary War, and will continue to be for a very long time to come. Communism was intent on turning identity on its head, and what did that form of government get the world? Many upon many dead Slavic people.
Are you just going to sit and idly imply that your greatest wish is for a government which in true socialist fashion exercises control over everything?
This is a fun forum and you will, in time, find out why you hated this and hated that and see that there was nothing, pure air. Every hatred is built on pure air in the end.
Mmmmhmmm. Whatever you say.
That is, for example
. . .
How could they have gotten clean when they didn\'t even have a shower to go to and they sometimes had to work in the mud during the raining period)
That is the mother of all sob stories.
As long as we\'re on how things once were, do you really think those on the American Frontier had it all that easy?
The black people where liberated
*dies laughing*
just as cleaners and garbage are to us today.
You mean just as Palestinians are to Israelis?
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Damn, too bad the list is restricted to 3:
1. Political correctness.
2. Those that would sicken or destroy my way of life, in any respect.
3. When the water goes ice cold as I\'m taking a shower.
(and an honorable mention goes to \"Moral Supremacy\" ;) )
Originally posted by Grindalyx
1. Discrimination.
2. Men.
*cough*hypocrite*cough*
I find it odd that you didn\'t even bother asking \"why\" i dislike men, and completely missed the fact that disliking a group for various reasons does not always lead to discrimination...
As it is, I was rather emotional when I posted that (bad break-up.. don\'t ask), but things have changed.
If I were posting it now, when I\'m less emotional and a bit more rational, men would be replaced with War.
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Originally posted by Baldur
OK, why\'s this 7-8 pages wide? Hate (-threads) produces Hate (-posts) so please don\'t post more.
So by that rationale, someone exercising their hatred of Sunday drivers and long lines at the grocery store is \"bad\"? What about if one of the windows of your house came down hard on your hand? Would you hate that too?
(hate = you dislike people when you haven\'t got enough facts).
That argument, in addition to being patently false and cliche, rings hollow.
if we wanna do that we shouldn\'t give a damn about our differences.
You view the issue from an unbalanced viewpoint, plus which, that isn\'t a very good path to go down in the first place. Are you sure you want to lose your identity or that of your ancestors in a swirling muck?
Try to ask yourself why you you hate this/that person/country/culture/whateva!*me gasps*
If the answer isn\'t one that you\'re going to like, would you then fail to understand me?
We shouldn\'t give a sh*t! Giving a sh*t about other\'s differences and abnormalities just leads to people feeling bad(about themselves*why do I look like this**where they right?Am i not beautiful, do i look like a freak?*
Once again, you are viewing the issue from an unbalanced viewpoint, only focusing on a mental aspect of identity. Those that cannot handle the implications of it are not going to be \"cured\" by forgetting its there. In my opinion, as well, they need serious help.
Identity is the greatest thing that we have going for us. As Americans are concerned, It was such after the Revolutionary War, and will continue to be for a very long time to come. Communism was intent on turning identity on its head, and what did that form of government get the world? Many upon many dead Slavic people.
Are you just going to sit and idly imply that your greatest wish is for a government which in true socialist fashion exercises control over everything?
This is a fun forum and you will, in time, find out why you hated this and hated that and see that there was nothing, pure air. Every hatred is built on pure air in the end.
Mmmmhmmm. Whatever you say.
That is, for example
. . .
How could they have gotten clean when they didn\'t even have a shower to go to and they sometimes had to work in the mud during the raining period)
That is the mother of all sob stories.
As long as we\'re on how things once were, do you really think those on the American Frontier had it all that easy?
The black people where liberated
*dies laughing*
just as cleaners and garbage are to us today.
You mean just as Palestinians are to Israelis?
I\'m sorry if this upset you. It wasn\'t really meant to.
1. I was a bit untactical, yes. It was misentrerpreted there. I forgot to take that into account, and yes, that\'s good. Sure, it\'s ok to \"hate\" things, though i think hate is a too strong word.
2. Might be, but i\'m only mentioning one side of the \"word\". There are many sides of hate, i know that. Atm i\'m emotional and i shouldn\'t have written this post, every time i write posts i regret it I must confess, and i\'m always afraid of getting flamed :S
3. Our ancestors are also a way to declare war, because of earlier conflicts and differences when we knew less, which not many like i believe, though they can bring good too like architecture, art, inventions and knowledge, though cultures and ancestors aren\'t all that matters when it comes to culture and inventions. It\'s about the humans. You identity is created by you, it shouldn\'t really be created by your ancestors cause they\'re not you.
4. No, i wouldn\'t fail to understand you. I would just think there is a reason behind this as there is a reason behind anything, so don\'t get me wrong.
5. Once again(first time though lol.) I\'m no communist, i don\'t want people to work for alike salories, being able to slack while you get the same salory as all the working guys. I want democracy. No racial differences(ancestor conflicts), sex issues etc, you just get what you work for. So, if you don\'t work, you get nil! K?
6. I\'m not talking about the Frontiers. The black people were there too, fighting with the whites so that seems to have nothign to do with it. Mark me if i\'m wrong. As i\'ve seen it the black and the white people were quite equal out there in the battlefields to fight for their survival. And that is no sob-story, that\'s reality, life.
7. If you want to laugh some more you may have seen i was ironic when I wrote that. Read a bit closer and you will see the irony. Being \"freed\" and then sent back to the cotton fields because of lack of money. \"Liberation\" have many definitions from \"them no longer being slaves in juridic meaning and then going back to \"work\" \" or \"them getting own farms\". That\'s two definitions of liberation and there are more.
8. What about palestinians and israelis? I\'m talking about \"classes\" in society and not two cultures at war with each other. No, not israelis and palestinians.
Edit: God! Typos!-.- Sorry for the mess.
Edit: Made some changes in the text once i\'d calmed down ;)
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1. People in general
2. Stupidity
3. Politics (See 1. and 2.)
Of course I love to argue about all of them :D
Speaking of arguing, this forum seems to have gone to the hippy-fruity crowd since Hatchnet and I stoppped posting frequently. It seems that those that argue as pro conservatives seem to do it mostly in a rude and ignorant manner, more of an \"I\'m right, your wrong, go forth and die if you don\'t want to convert\" type of manner than in a polished and polite and respectful way. Definately not the way to get fencewalkers to agree with you.
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Originally posted by JellyWerker
1. People in general
2. Stupidity
3. Politics (See 1. and 2.)
Of course I love to argue about all of them :D
Speaking of arguing, this forum seems to have gone to the hippy-fruity crowd since Hatchnet and I stoppped posting frequently. It seems that those that argue as pro conservatives seem to do it mostly in a rude and ignorant manner, more of an \"I\'m right, your wrong, go forth and die if you don\'t want to convert\" type of manner than in a polished and polite and respectful way. Definately not the way to get fencewalkers to agree with you.
Sorryyyyyyyyyy :(
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2. Might be, but i\'m only mentioning one side of the \"word\". There are many sides of hatred, i know that. I only mentioned one. Atm i\'m a emotional and i shouldn\'t have written this post, everytime i write one of these posts i regret it, I must confess and i\'m always afraid of getting flamed :S
You seem intelligent enough to know that the \"hate\" which most liberals and/or multiculturalists think of when they hear the word is that of a racial or religious nature.
3. Our ancestors are also a way to declare war, which not many like, i believe
Anyone can \"declare war\" over anything, even if its only a personal microcosm of the word. For one thing, those who profess that their beliefs are on a level higher than anyone else have contributed to or started some of the bloodiest wars in history.
As well, I could \"declare war\" on the person sitting next to me in cramped airplane confines for shoving his spork in my face. (Not a very good analogy, but you hopefully get what I mean.)
i meant that we shouldn\'t live in the past but look forward. Look into what needs to be done.
There\'s an old saying. \"If it ain\'t broke, don\'t fix it.\"
4. No, i wouldn\'t fail to understand you. I would just think there is a reason behind this as there is a reason behind anything, in my opinioin.
That\'s good.
It seems that those that argue as pro conservatives seem to do it mostly in a rude and ignorant manner, more of an \"I\'m right, your wrong, go forth and die if you don\'t want to convert\" type of manner than in a polished and polite and respectful way. Definately not the way to get fencewalkers to agree with you.
If you\'re referring to me, that was not my intent and I\'m sorry if you take it as it were. I\'m just being totally and completely honest.
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im not gonna get into the religeon and vegetarian crap but.
\'if something doesent affect your life then dont worry about it\' thats what my dad says to me alot when i complain about immigration.
thas true for the vegetarianism unless they are complainging to you not to eat meat.
and true to religeon unless your about to get suicide bombed by muslims or affected by immigration.
so guys, dont worry about it ok.
If it doesent affect you dont say anything.
People have a right to their own beliefs and such.
please dont quote me and start an argument on the validility of vegetarianism or mulsim comments, im just stopping the fighting.
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i dont like perfectionist
i dont like people who bother with other peoples problem/business. example... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4879022.stm) the repoter is the part im on about.
i dont like people who cant sort out their own problems
i dont like people being overly nice
and now this post becomes a little hypocritical :P
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I hate people who rag on vegetarianism out of ignorance.
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
2. Might be, but i\'m only mentioning one side of the \"word\". There are many sides of hatred, i know that. I only mentioned one. Atm i\'m a emotional and i shouldn\'t have written this post, everytime i write one of these posts i regret it, I must confess and i\'m always afraid of getting flamed :S
You seem intelligent enough to know that the \"hate\" which most liberals and/or multiculturalists think of when they hear the word is that of a racial or religious nature.
3. Our ancestors are also a way to declare war, which not many like, i believe
Anyone can \"declare war\" over anything, even if its only a personal microcosm of the word. For one thing, those who profess that their beliefs are on a level higher than anyone else have contributed to or started some of the bloodiest wars in history.
As well, I could \"declare war\" on the person sitting next to me in cramped airplane confines for shoving his spork in my face. (Not a very good analog
i meant that we shouldn\'t live in the past but look forward. Look into what needs to be done.
There\'s an old saying. \"If it ain\'t broke, don\'t fix it.\"
It seems that those that argue as pro conservatives seem to do it mostly in a rude and ignorant manner, more of an \"I\'m right, your wrong, go forth and die if you don\'t want to convert\" type of manner than in a polished and polite and respectful way. Definately not the way to get fencewalkers to agree with you.
If you\'re referring to me, that was not my intent and I\'m sorry if you take it as it were. I\'m just being totally and completely honest.
First:Yes, mainly, but there are other kinds of hate[One i would not personally mention conerning special items like spam;/] And i think we\'re slipping a little on the topic so i\'ll add to the earlier post. It could be of many hates, what you say is \"would you get angry at the window if it slammed you on the hand?\" Yes, I would how unrational that might seem I do get angry at things when they hurt me. You often point your anger at items and that\'s good cause you use them to prevent you from slamming into living things :) Yeah, i would be angry at the window.
Second: Of course you can declare war, anyone can though you need a group who wants to follow your cause(or your fake cause if that is what it takes ;/ ). You either have to wake anger in the group[You probably have noticed that when you get really pissed you leave all rational things behind making it easier to do stupid things, like war :)]
Third: What\'s not broken? Nothing\'s perfect. We still need to fix, and there\'s no use in ignoring that we\'re humans, we\'ve built the system and our world( i meant like cities, the system. Our \"nature\", so to say, in the cities and our homes. Our norms, our laws, our rules) and humans aren\'t perfect :) Coming back to the topic, hehe ;)
I don\'t think anything\'s broken, though the decay of time fighting \"religious/cultural\" wars, leading to hates(as you pointed ;) ) shouldn\'t have been fixed if ,what you say, is the case.[Ok, i\'m doing that metaphorical cause you did it so shush :P]
Fourth: I think he\'s referring to us both, and sorry :) I can be very dominant(i wonder if that\'s the right word...) when i haven\'t got my head with me. Don\'t take what i say in my first post too hard, Star :) Though i love argumenting;D *ty :)*
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Zanzibar: You\'re vegetarian? I\'ve considered switching (for sports health related reasons) but it seems a bit more expensive and time consuming, something you have to really put effort into. Almost all of the best performing athletes I have met have been vegetarian, either during their training and racing careers or just making the switch for life. Anyways, I have a few questions about it.
Will eating meat on occasion screw it up? And does eating something like fish regularly detract from the benefits? Are there any good sites for people wanting to go vegetarian to improve their performance?
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You still need the proteins from meat, so I guess that\'s ok...i\'ve heard( :P). Something essential in meat though heard you could get it from korn too.
Think plants are a good choice though i\'m not letting the carnivores down cause i too eat meat, though bit more varied(Yummmyyy! Peas \'n\' i love oranges, pepper, carrots, potato chips etc etc Oo )
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It\'s vitamin B12 that most usually mention, as we need it and it\'s found mainly in animal products. B12 is harder to obtain if you\'re vegan and on many occasions supplements are necessary, but a vegetarian can too find it in fortified cereal, soy milk (the epitome of yummy!) or soy products (double-yummy), eggs and dairy products, and fish I believe (particularly trout, tuna, and salmon).
Being vegetarian will definitely take a bit more effort, since you\'re actively picking everything you eat and checking that you\'re not missing anything important that may cause defficiencies.
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or in Zipfizz, which has 41,000% of your daily needed intake :D
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Originally posted by JellyWerker
Zanzibar: You\'re vegetarian? I\'ve considered switching (for sports health related reasons) but it seems a bit more expensive and time consuming, something you have to really put effort into. Almost all of the best performing athletes I have met have been vegetarian, either during their training and racing careers or just making the switch for life. Anyways, I have a few questions about it.
Will eating meat on occasion screw it up? And does eating something like fish regularly detract from the benefits? Are there any good sites for people wanting to go vegetarian to improve their performance?
No!!! not you. Why go to that side? :P
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Why take such an awful \"us and them\" attitude? :P If nothing else, trying out vegetarianism may introduce you to some really interesting and healthy dishes.
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I am basically kidding.. If you want to be one.. do it. Sure maybe a joke here and there but nothing with any substance. But will I try it out? Likely never. No personal reasons.. If I knew it would help out the environment or would significantly help me be healthier.. then sure I would. But I would need more hard evidence in this area.
Edit: I just didnt think Jerry would say that. All my conservative friends are like \"Beef its whats for Dinner\" oh forgot the HARHAR at the end :)
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I know you weren\'t entirely serious with that comment :P
Vegetarians aren\'t necessarily healthier than meat eaters - the only difference really lies in the diet of the meat eater. If all the nutritional intake is balanced and you\'re not overdosing on fat all the time, you\'re basically okay. Vegetarian diets more often than not come about from emotional/personal/religious issues.
Would it help the environment? Very much so if more people bought less animal products. Will that happen? Unfortunately I just can\'t see that occuring :\\
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It would help because there would be less Methane gas in the air sure. (From less Cattle Raising) ... Which would be one component of global warming. But we need much more then that. Starting with the Kyoto Protocol would help. Though I know it has short comings as well.
Edit:
BTW here are some things I hate in one way or another:
Liars, Cheaters, and theives
People who are not Loyal to family and friends.
Any types of Holy Rollers
People who do not think for themselves (Not that I hate them just I want them to think for themselves :P)
And Individuality in some ways ^. I know it sounds a bit funny. But I mean those who do not think we are all connected.
Those who do not think we should help others if we can.
People who do not believe that we should take care of our own especially if we have the means.
Thats just a few ;)
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
It would help because there would be less Methane gas in the air sure. (From less Cattle Raising) ... Which would be one component of global warming. But we need much more then that. Starting with the Kyoto Protocol would help. Though I know it has short comings as well.
Wouldn\'t we be farting our arses off if we too ate grass \'n\' peas? Oo [J/K, but in a smart way :P]
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I dont mean completely... I still like meat. But because so many cows are being raised.. more and more methane is making it into our atmosphere (Because the cows go to the bathroom :P)
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Originally posted by JellyWerker
Zanzibar: You\'re vegetarian? I\'ve considered switching (for sports health related reasons) but it seems a bit more expensive and time consuming, something you have to really put effort into. Almost all of the best performing athletes I have met have been vegetarian, either during their training and racing careers or just making the switch for life. Anyways, I have a few questions about it.
Will eating meat on occasion screw it up? And does eating something like fish regularly detract from the benefits? Are there any good sites for people wanting to go vegetarian to improve their performance?
I\'m vegetarian for moral reasons. While I\'m concious of the health benefits, they are not my primary concern.
I just make sure I get enough fruits, beans, and veggies in my diet. I do eat eggs and some dairy on occassion. I take multivitamin and B12 suppliments, though I\'m careful to choose ones that are not from animal sources.
The best advice I can give you is to talk to a professional. If you\'ve grown up eating meat, then eating meat (and fish is meat) once in a while won\'t \"screw it up\" - it might actually make the transition period easier.
Originally posted by Baldur
You still need the proteins from meat
I\'ve been vegetarian for a very long time. You do not need protein from meat. There are alternatives.
Originally posted by Karyuu
fish
Fish are living animals, and therefore they are not part of a vegetarian diet.
Originally posted by Valbrandr
I would need more hard evidence in this area.
The proof is there if you open your eyes and look for it.
Methane is one part of it.
The beaf industry is incredibly destructive to the rainforrest.
The beaf industry pollutes our water, and it consumes too much resources in terms of grain, water, and land.
It\'s a strain on out healthcare system because of all the heart disease it causes.
There\'s mad cow disease and bird flu.
Digesting meat is not a simple process due to complex carbohydrates. The result is a slower metabolism, and everything that comes out of your body is smellier. (Girls who are used to boyfriends who eat meat always tell me I taste good.)
Plus there are all the reasons based on cruelty to animals etcetera.
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*nodnod* Especially if you\'re considering vegetarianism while doing sports, it\'s important to discuss your diet and dietary needs with someone who\'ll know more on the subject, and professionally. Depending on what you do, you may need more of something-or-other and less of this-or-that, and the like.
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The proof is there if you open your eyes and look for it.
Yeah sadly you can find information to prove any point if you want to. Which makes it very easy to spin the truth. If you wanted to go in that direction.. I could tell you that not eating enough meat causes there to be more farmers.. farmers also cut down forests. And hence can be seen as bad on the enviroment like in Brazil and in the surrounding area :P.
Edit: not that I want to get in the conversation here... but yeah..
(Girls who are used to boyfriends who eat meat always tell me I taste good.)
I have heard that from different sources.
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Originally posted by Baldur
though you need a group who wants to follow your cause
Who said anything about a group? The \"spork\" comment was of a one on one \"fight\" nature. And in regard to \"wanting\", if you join the Army you by and large have no choice but to just do your job. Your \"wanting\" privileges are revoked for the next four years after you enlist.
There are as you say many kinds of things, including war.
Originally posted by Baldur
Fourth: I think he\'s referring to us both, and sorry :) I can be very dominant(i wonder if that\'s the right word...) when i haven\'t got my head with me. Don\'t take what i say in my first post too hard, Star :) Though i love argumenting;D *ty :)*
\'S okay. No hard feelings. :D
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Yeah, though I don\'t think of \"cruelty to animals\". Sure, we do have it, I can\'t say we don\'t cause that would be completely ignoring the issue. Sure, many want to do it quick and systematically. How I would want to change this is a bit farther down(just a teeny addition ;))
I\'m saying we\'re omnivores. We\'re, by nature meant to eat everything we like. We\'re a very agile species i must say(too agile on many cases ;/ ). We have always eaten roots( caroot, potatoo Oo) and meat(cows, pigs, goats) and it\'s just gotten out of hand with the killing and slaughtering. I think the animal meat production shouldn\'t be treated as an industry. That would just be cruel. We will still eat them, and that\'s not cruel by nature. Many species kill their prey and no one thinks that\'s out of the ordinary.
Instead of industry we wouldn\'t have cattle in general meaning, we would try to have them in big areas (omg, i\'m just dreaming away:/ ). What i mean: It\'s not cruel to kill animals to eat them. It\'s nature. I\'m sorry if you get offended. Bare in mind that the makeup- and medical industry is much more cruel to the poor beasts. Instead of finish them off without them suffering(at least not more then 2 milliseconds) the \"lab-rats\" go through several, sometimes painful experiements before they die because of some toxic or mistreated cancer tomour(This must sound like a clich\'e, but a clich\'e needs his mate :/)
Simply my two trias on neutral grounds. (I hope, omg. What\'s that shiny thing coming right at me)
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Originally posted by Karyuu
I know you weren\'t entirely serious with that comment :P
Vegetarians aren\'t necessarily healthier than meat eaters - the only difference really lies in the diet of the meat eater. If all the nutritional intake is balanced and you\'re not overdosing on fat all the time, you\'re basically okay. Vegetarian diets more often than not come about from emotional/personal/religious issues.
Would it help the environment? Very much so if more people bought less animal products. Will that happen? Unfortunately I just can\'t see that occuring :\\
And you told me not to agure about vegetarism ;(
Ohhh and back on topic:
-> People who blindly believe in things, without doubt or back-questioning.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Fish are living animals, and therefore they are not part of a vegetarian diet.
I\'m sitting here wondering how that got into my post :x Thanks for pointing that out.
Though there are different \"levels\" of vegetarianism as well.
@Baldur: My main reply to the argument of \"Other species do it too\" is that we\'re different from other species, and if we want to, we can make alternative choices for our diets. We are the only beings to have a concept of \"morality,\" after all.
@Cyl: I know ;_; But Kiern raised a good point back there, so.. argue away :x
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Originally posted by Baldur
though you need a group who wants to follow your cause
Who said anything about a group? The \"spork\" comment was of a one on one \"fight\" nature. And in regard to \"wanting\", if you join the Army you by and large have no choice but to just do your job. Your \"wanting\" privileges are revoked for the next four years after you enlist.
There are as you say many kinds of things, including war.
Originally posted by Baldur
Fourth: I think he\'s referring to us both, and sorry :) I can be very dominant(i wonder if that\'s the right word...) when i haven\'t got my head with me. Don\'t take what i say in my first post too hard, Star :) Though i love argumenting;D *ty :)*
\'S okay. No hard feelings. :D
Yep, I think we finally agree on something ;) *Fabulous!*
And i\'m not saying that it\'s not so in the army, you just changed subject from civil strike(we were speaking about civil war, class wars):D I\'m right here talking about \"undusciplined\" battles like in street fights (anger to the government, someone killed you homie?) so please don\'t change subject cause I i\'m easy to get confused ;)
Now i\'ll go do something else... ...*sifts through Karyuus trash*:P
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If I went vegetarian, it would be a \"low\" level, i.e. eating meat where and when it\'s beneficial, but not just to eat it. Not that I have any moral or religious issues with eating meat, just that I have heard about and seen people who performed much better when on a very low meat diet.
Valbrandr: Who will it hurt? It\'s not like going vegetarian for athletic performance reasons will affect my conservative mind :P
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Originally posted by Baldur
by nature... It\'s nature.....
Rape is also natural. That doesn\'t make it right.
Originally posted by Baldur
suffering
Do you know how cows are most commonly slaughtered? They\'re suspended from the ceiling of a warehouse by one leg, then they have their throats cut. They bleed to death from their neck. That\'s how they\'re killed. They do not die instantly.
Karyuu: A vegetarian who eats fish is a pesco-vegetarian (sometimes called a pescetarian). I\'m a lacto-oval-vegetarian since I eat cheese and eggs.
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Rape is also natural. That doesn\'t make it right.
Where are you from again? Its never been natural.
He was just saying its the food chain and we are at the top.. not that i neccessarily agree.
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Rape can be found in several species beyond our own.
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They are?
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Rape can be found in several species beyond our own.
However that doesnt make it natural for humans.
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Rape is natural. Biologists even think that in the early days of the human race, rape was one of the major sources of procreation. Monkeys rape eachother. Dogs rape eachother. It\'s in a lot of other species besides our own. Even the shape of the \'thingy\' lends itself to the theory that it\'s natural.
Being natural does not make something good. There are other examples of things which are natural but bad... but rape is the one I like to use because of the shock value.
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And then there is evolution. We are not like that now... and your talking about 10s and 100s of thousands of years ago.
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Rape may not be an \"accepted natural\" for humans now, but I believe the subject is usually brought up because someone compares animal behavior to human behavior, and points at similarities that are basically meant to \"okay\" certain human actions.
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I get the point... and i agree with what hes trying to prove.. however i just dont agree with his example :P.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
And then there is evolution. We are not like that now... and your talking about 10s and 100s of thousands of years ago.
Rape is still around. So is war.
You could then just argue that vegetarianism is more \'evolved\' than eating meat.:)
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You know what I hate? :/ Monkeys! Monkeys and apes are CRUEL. Especially chimps, because they\'re so violent! You ever see chimps go on hunting/raiding parties and end up brutally killing members of another \"band\"? They\'re horrible /o\\
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Rape is still around. So is war.
You could then just argue that vegetarianism is more \'evolved\' than eating meat.:)
And I wouldnt disagree with that ;)
And Yes animals can be very cruel.. as can humans to one another.
Edit: Speaking of which, I was at a Cabellas the other day. Beautiful place, except for the 100s of stuffed animals. They did a great job dipicting the different scenes.. but so many dead animals just for one place to decorate.
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All I have to say about this stuff above is, \"Since when are humans not part of the animal kingdom\" ?
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Since we created plastic, clearly :P
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Since we created plastic, clearly :P
There are bacteria and insects that form plastic-like substances.:P
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Ah yes, but do those same bacteria, slaughter cows by stringing them up by there necks, bleeding them, chopin them up, covering them in the clear plastic that they made, then finally cooking them over a flame and eating them?
Mmmm BBQ!
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Ah yes, but do those same bacteria, slaughter cows by stringing them up by there necks, bleeding them, chopin them up, covering them in the clear plastic that they made, then finally cooking them over a flame and eating them?
Mmmm BBQ!
We hang them up by their legs, not their necks. Holding them upside down makes them bleed quicker.
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blah, details details, the important thing is that we cover them in plastic wrap, thats is what seperates us from the bacteria :P
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http://images.google.ca/images?q=cow+slaughter&btnG=Search&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off
(a google images search for the terms \"cow\" and \"slaughter\")
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Sory, didn\'t really get the words right :/ What i meant was \"butchering\", though that might also wake up some nasty pics because of the negativity the word \"creates\". I\'m a bit concerned that we will only explain this with pictures as death is sure grim. Have you ever watche da reindeer cadaver after a flock of wolve\'s been at it?(or a sheep maybe?)
EDIT: All i gotta say that this is a greyzone as it seems we have no solution to this, though as StarsandBars earlier explained \"if it\'s not broken, don\'t fix it\". I\'m NOT a fan of this idea. I still think there are many small tweaks that we don\'t see which would lead us to THE answer, there is always an answer no matter if you like it or not and i give hell to find it. I\'m going to find it! :D
*philosphees*
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Do you know how cows are most commonly slaughtered? They\'re suspended from the ceiling of a warehouse by one leg, then they have their throats cut. They bleed to death from their neck. That\'s how they\'re killed. They do not die instantly.
Qualification:
I have spent over 25 years working in the meat industry incuding a spell as a slaughterman, my current position of includes the oversight of animal welfare regs in a UK based abattoir.
I would suggest that with such an emotive subject you ought to make sure that the \"facts\" that you quote are correct.
1. They are not suspended by one leg (it makes the carcase hang awkwardly) Check the images in your own search.
2. The animals are stunned while still standing BEFORE any cutting takes place. (again shown in an image from your search)
3. The throats are not cut, a lateral cut is made to sever the carotid arteries.
4. They do not \"bleed to death\" actual death occurs when the animal is stunned causing immediate instantaneous brain death. The blood flow is a result of autonomic nerve action until the heart stops.
Although we do end up killing the animals we try to do so in as humane a way as possible.
edit: for clarification all the above relates to the legal UK meat industry other countries may be different
edit:and as primates (including humans) are omnivorous the eating of meat is natural although one may not like it or agree with it.
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Originally posted by Baldur
Have you ever watche da reindeer cadaver after a flock of wolve\'s been at it?(or a sheep maybe?)
Are you saying that we should use wolves as a standard for morality? And yes, it is a broken system.... look at rain forest depletion in Brazil, or heart disease in the US.
Originally posted by lanser
1. They are not suspended by one leg (it makes the carcase hang awkwardly) Check the images in your own search.
Are they suspended upside down while still alive? Looked like the hind legs to me, does it really make a different?
Originally posted by lanser
3. The throats are not cut, a lateral cut is made to sever the carotid arteries.
Near the throat? I\'m just going by what I saw.
Originally posted by lanser
4. They do not \"bleed to death\" actual death occurs when the animal is stunned causing immediate instantaneous brain death. The blood flow is a result of autonomic nerve action until the heart stops.
Then explain the different videos floating around of cows flailing around while they bleed to death while suspended by their hind legs. Obviously, those stun guns aren\'t so effective, or perhaps various slaughter houses have decided that it\'s an unneccessary step.
Originally posted by lanser
Although we do end up killing the animals we try to do so in as humane a way as possible.
That\'s all fine and dandy, but it\'s clear to me that not everyone goes by the same rules as you do.
Originally posted by lanser
edit: for clarification all the above relates to the legal UK meat industry other countries may be different
I thought the UK is a relatively small consumer of beaf when compared to the American market?
Originally posted by lanser
edit:and as primates (including humans) are omnivorous the eating of meat is natural although one may not like it or agree with it.
Rape and war are also natural. Being natural does not make something right. Plus humans have all sorts of problems digesting meat and diary, so the idea that it\'s natural is in question.
Humans are the only animal that drinks the milk of ANOTHER animal into ADULTHOOD.
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What does being Vegan consist of?
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Being a vegan means you don\'t eat any animal products at all - so in addition to no meat, nothing that was made from milk, usually no honey, etc. You\'re relying entirely on the plant world for substance.
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1 I did not say they were not hung upside down, and no they are not alive.
3. then you haven\'t seen enough to comment. You used throat as a purely theatrical attempt to shock rather than use reasoned and informed argument.
4. All nervous reflexes, never heard of the headless chicken running around? a cow is a lot bigger and consequently makes a lot more extreme movement. So believe me with a foot long metal rod through your brain you are dead.
Although we do end up killing the animals we try to do so in as humane a way as possible.
That\'s all fine and dandy, but it\'s clear to me that not everyone goes by the same rules as you do.
Just a very large majority
So because the US has a larger beef industry than the UK that makes them inhumane? Or more likely to break the law?
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Being a vegan means you don\'t eat any animal products at all - so in addition to no meat, nothing that was made from milk, usually no honey, etc. You\'re relying entirely on the plant world for substance.
Sinners :P (just joking..don\'t torch me.)
byebye
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Being a vegan means you don\'t eat any animal products at all - so in addition to no meat, nothing that was made from milk, usually no honey, etc. You\'re relying entirely on the plant world for substance.
The honey thing is actually a topic for debate.:) Some vegans eat it, others don\'t. In my opinion, bees are just insects so I\'m not too worried about them.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Ah yes, but do those same bacteria, slaughter cows by stringing them up by there necks, bleeding them, chopin them up, covering them in the clear plastic that they made, then finally cooking them over a flame and eating them?
Mmmm BBQ!
No. Lions just stick their heads, and mouths, right into cougar entrails, perhaps eating them alive.
Just as a question: Would the pro-vegetarianism people here, for all the objections raised to current slaughter practices, prefer that humans instead engage in that conduct?
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Just as a question: Would the pro-vegetarianism people here, for all the objections raised to current slaughter practices, prefer that humans instead engage in that conduct?
Your question makes no sense. Humans engage in that conduct? What conduct?
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1. Rappers
2. Hip Hop
3. talad
Do I win?
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You win a cabbage Fossie \\o/
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ok ok
people who want to eat vegitables shut up and eat them.
people who want to eat meat shut up and eat it lol
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you kno what, I hate those bloody daddy long legs, or crane flys....they are the most pointless insect on the planet. Can we get some in game for blade fodder
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Originally posted by davo
ok ok
people who want to eat vegitables shut up and eat them.
people who want to eat meat shut up and eat it lol
people who want to wear hemp necklaces shut up and wear them
people who want to cut down the rainforest until it\'s all gone shut up and destroy it
davo is silly
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3 things I hate:
- Narrowminded people
- People who feel the need to tell others how to live their lives .. over and over
- This bloody cold I\'m having right now
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Originally posted by Zan
- People who feel the need to tell others how to live their lives .. over and over
Yeah, what right do we have to stop gang violence? It\'s just the way they choose to live their lives.
Edit: Oh wait, the way a person lives can affect other people in the world. Who would have thought!
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Which is the worse crime, standing by and watching bad things happen, or changing it for good?
But some things you just can\'t change
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Originally posted by zanzibar
people who want to wear hemp necklaces shut up and wear them
people who want to cut down the rainforest until it\'s all gone shut up and destroy it
davo is silly
I hate to break it to you, but you have no room to talk about davo.
Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by Zan
- People who feel the need to tell others how to live their lives .. over and over
Yeah, what right do we have to stop gang violence? It\'s just the way they choose to live their lives.
Edit: Oh wait, the way a person lives can affect other people in the world. Who would have thought!
I don\'t think you\'re reading the \"social contract\" in the correct sense.
Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Just as a question: Would the pro-vegetarianism people here, for all the objections raised to current slaughter practices, prefer that humans instead engage in that conduct?
Your question makes no sense. Humans engage in that conduct? What conduct?
Please read the whole post. I was using a possible outcome of animal feeding in the wild to illustrate the much better way in which humans go about obtaining and eating meat.
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I didn\'t quite understand your comment as well, Stars, until you explained it.. :)
But I don\'t agree. Humans have had different methods for obtaining meat for too many thousands of years. Suggesting that hunting \"like animals\" is even a choice is just.. weird. There are definitely more humane ways of taking meat than the many practices that are done by the \"big guys\" today. Were it possible to still hunt and obtain your food yourself, or at least know that the animals are being \"disposed of\" in a different manner, I wouldn\'t have as many problems.
Personally I think I just dislike the practice of keeping and raising animals for slaughter. Not than any alternatives are at all possible at this point.
[ Did I misunderstand your comment afterall..? ]
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Originally posted by Karyuu
[ Did I misunderstand your comment afterall..? ]
It was more of a comparison than an actual suggestion that it was a choice, but you didn\'t . . . really.
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
I hate to break it to you, but you have no room to talk about davo.
I hate to break it to you, but you\'re silly.
Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Please read the whole post.
I did.
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Going in for the big double 3 most hated things;
1. Big companies who have little intrest in you after buying their product. *cough* apple *cough*
2. Microsoft haters. Get over it already
3. people who sniff and spit everywhere
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That\'s six most hated things :P You hate a lot :D
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I think its time I add my little blurb. I don\'t hate anything really, its such a harsh word. Dislike a few things, yes, but not hate. Anyway, heres my top things I guess I say I dislike the most.
1) People who vote down party lines just becuase its what they were told to vote that way and they don\'t take the time to get educated about the issues and think for their friggen selves and simply become the little sheepies they like to be.
2) People who bash furries just becuase they hear the word furry and go \"OMG! you\'re a furry, you freak! You must die!\" and they don\'t even take the time to even try to understand anything. No it\'s different from them so that automatically makes it evil. Bah.
3) People who like to tell others what to do to make things better but don\'t actually do anything to help make whatever they think can be made better, better. Actions are more important than words. Try doing something than just complaining.
and a close 4th) People who can\'t differenciate between what goes on in game and real life and they try to mix the two when its really not thier friggen business what peoples real lifes are like.
Discuss. Or not. I don\'t care.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
I hate to break it to you, but you have no room to talk about davo.
I hate to break it to you, but you\'re silly.
Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Please read the whole post.
I did.
1. Righto, and I bet you think the same about *anyone* who disagrees with your agenda.
2. Then you would have known what \"that conduct\" which I was talking about referred to, would you not?
Originally posted by fireofsoul
1. Big companies who have little intrest in you after buying their product.
Don\'t you shoot yourself in the foot. . .
Originally posted by fireofsoul
2. Microsoft haters
here?
Also, I wonder what you have against people who dislike a company that has done every possible thing to earn hate, and then some?
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
1. Righto, and I bet you think the same about *anyone* who disagrees with your agenda.
It\'s more to do with people who refuse to make sense. Like you.
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ill add:
people who put words into my mouth.
i said people can eat meat or vegitables if they want, wtf makes you think i should let people cut down rain forests cause they want to.
it really ****ing annoys me.
i was breaking up your fight and letting everyone have a fair say but noooo someone has to jump on me and b*tch at that too.
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Zanz I only have one concept for you ... autonomy. One of the biggest building blocks of our modern free society and that goes even more for america than anywhere else.
Autonomy is literally translated self-law, the freedom to lead ones own life as one pleases without interference of others, given there is no harm done to third parties.
With that concept in mind you cannot even begin to compare gang violence to personal diet choices.
Of course you\'re going to argue \"But animals are third parties too, so harming them is ok?\" now. So flies can\'t be swatted either, bugs or spides squashed because they are all animals. Even plants and vegetables can be third parties as well so no ripping them out of their homes in the ground to devour them. Heck even single celled organisms can be considered as third parties so every time you wash your hands or take a shower you\'re commiting mass murder.
That\'s an argument you can draw through till it becomes completely idiotic and where everyone draws the line, is their personal choice. I draw the line with other people and do try to be as kind to animals as I can but I eat them and I\'ve even killed some for food (yay farmlife) Flies or bugs on the other hand I don\'t have a problem with killing at all.
End message: Autonomy, people are free to live their lives as long as they don\'t harm other people in the process. And this will be the end of the discussion for me.
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I oppose the meat industry not because it hurts animals, but because it is a danger to humanity -- and all of humanity, not just people who eat meat.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
I oppose the meat industry not because it hurts animals, but because it is a danger to humanity -- and all of humanity, not just people who eat meat.
A pretty major statement to make, never really thought of myself as a danger to humanity. Care to elaborate?
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Originally posted by lanser
Originally posted by zanzibar
I oppose the meat industry not because it hurts animals, but because it is a danger to humanity -- and all of humanity, not just people who eat meat.
A pretty major statement to make, never really thought of myself as a danger to humanity. Care to elaborate?
It\'s not you, it\'s your actions.
Is the purpose here to understand eachother\'s position, or is it to convince eachother that the other is right? If we debate it, I\'m sure we\'ll go back and forth with good points but I doubt that we\'ll change our minds about anything.
Fact: Certain practices of the meat industry hurt the environment, and this has consequences for human health and activity on the planet.
Fact: The way people consume meat and diary products puts added strain on the healthcare system.
Fact: Certain diseases such as mad cow disease and the bird flus are direct consquences of certain practices in the meat industry.
Fact: Certain practices within the meat industry are cruel to animals, when we devalue life we devalue it not only for animals, but for ourselves as well.
That\'s the short list.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
but because it is a danger to humanity -- and all of humanity, not just people who eat meat.
ROTFLMWFAO
THIS guy, ladies and gentlemen, is the one who chastises me for \"refusing to make sense.\"
I wash my hands of this thread.
Zanzibar: Take yourself, your radical ideology, the bong pipe which I\'m betting you own. . .and GROW UP.
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Originally posted by zanzibar
but because it is a danger to humanity -- and all of humanity, not just people who eat meat.
ROTFLMWFAO
THIS guy, ladies and gentlemen, is the one who chastises me for \"refusing to make sense.\"
I wash my hands of this thread.
Zanzibar: Take yourself, your radical ideology, the bong pipe which I\'m betting you own. . .and GROW UP.
\"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.\"
Friedrich Nietzsche
I said you were making no sense because the grammar of your posts was so bad that I couldn\'t understand what you were trying to say. That\'s very different from disagreeing with your position. And no, my \"ideology\" is not radical, even if it is new to you.
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Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Originally posted by zanzibar
but because it is a danger to humanity -- and all of humanity, not just people who eat meat.
ROTFLMWFAO
THIS guy, ladies and gentlemen, is the one who chastises me for \"refusing to make sense.\"
I wash my hands of this thread.
Zanzibar: Take yourself, your radical ideology, the bong pipe which I\'m betting you own. . .and GROW UP.
You do realise that you are acting infantile, not him.
While I dont agree with him on one point or the other, I am forced to agree with him on others, as they make more sense than my prior opinion.
Some practices (like the enormous keeping of livestock (for instance the ammount of cattle in americs) have _significant_ impact on the enviroment. Some others are perfect playground for diseases and viruses.
However there are, undoubtely less obvious, issues with pure vegetarian diet to, as to strong dependency on vegetables and fruits might turn out to be disastrous if there is a (more or less global, or at least continental) Funghi epidemia, as well as the fact that the human bowels tend to need a certain ammount of meat.
Out of my point of view balance is very important for the human diet. A bit meat, some vegetables, fruits. The (not to recent) junk food boom is something not only unhealthy but bad for the enviroment.
However, an absolutely contraproductive (and plain stupid) tendency is, that a (not to small) percentage of the meat that could be gotten from a piece of livestock is oftenly simply dumped for being \"inferior\". Bowels and inteties. It seems that a not to small percentage of the people tend to only buy/use the \"good\" meat (meaning muscle mass and partially fat) while refusing to eat the formerly mentioned\"inferior\" meat, just because it is \"Ewwwwww\".
Originally posted by StarsAndBars_1018
Also, I wonder what you have against people who dislike a company that has done every possible thing to earn hate, and then some?
Care to explain?
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Originally posted by zanzibar
It\'s not you, it\'s your actions.
Is the purpose here to understand each other\'s position, or is it to convince eachother that the other is right? If we debate it, I\'m sure we\'ll go back and forth with good points but I doubt that we\'ll change our minds about anything.
That is one point we can almost certainly agree on
Fact: Certain practices of the meat industry hurt the environment, and this has consequences for human health and activity on the planet.
I also agree in principle with this point too, intensive farming of cattle produces more CO2 emmissions than cars
Fact: The way people consume meat and diary products puts added strain on the healthcare system.
Sorry but for every expert you can bring for this I can find one of the opposite opinion and probably more
Fact: Certain diseases such as mad cow disease and the bird flus are direct consquences of certain practices in the meat industry.
Mad cow disease or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy is due to the practice of feeding animal by products back into the food chain that has been going on for centuries, and the human version CJD has been known for decades before it was identified in cattle. Avian flu is mostly prevented within intensive units it tends to prevail in the small backyards of asia with a few dozen birds running almost wild.
Fact: Certain practices within the meat industry are cruel to animals, when we devalue life we devalue it not only for animals, but for ourselves as well.
Sorry but the very last thing the industry wants is to be cruel. Cruelty equals stressed animals which results in poor quality unedible, unsaleable meat.
[/QUOTE]
@ StarsAndBars_1018
I used to own a bong pipe and as you can see am diametrically opposed to Zanzibars point of view
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My 3 most hated things:
1. Really long posts with zanz all over them which I have no time to read.
2.Soy milk
3. cats
\\o/
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Mad cow disease or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy is due to the practice of feeding animal by products back into the food chain that has been going on for centuries, and the human version CJD has been known for decades before it was identified in cattle. Avian flu is mostly prevented within intensive units it tends to prevail in the small backyards of asia with a few dozen birds running almost wild.
Your right but I just wanted to elaborate if I can. Mad Cow disease is from feeding cow to cows. As he mentioned about CJD which has effected some tribes in Africa and other places where people used to be cannibals. Being cannibalistic seems to greater the chances of mutations in a specific species genes. But from what I understand, the practice of feeding cow to cows is over. Now pig is feed to cows and cow to pigs.
And as for all of Zanz \"Facts\"... those are not facts... just statements with nothing to back them up in the same post. Now maybe you can get some valid sources... but not to backup all of your claims.
Fact: The way people consume meat and diary products puts added strain on the healthcare system.
:P
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Fact #1: Certain practices of the meat industry hurt the environment, and this has consequences for human health and activity on the planet.
Fact #2: The way people consume meat and diary products puts added strain on the healthcare system.
Fact #3: Certain diseases such as mad cow disease and the bird flus are direct consquences of certain practices in the meat industry.
Fact #4: Certain practices within the meat industry are cruel to animals, when we devalue life we devalue it not only for animals, but for ourselves as well.
I\'ve numbered the \"Facts\" for easier referencing.
Sometimes a list of facts is easily understood, other times more information is needed. I\'m not looking for sources, cited in MLA format, or anything but I fail to see how all of these things are \"Facts\".
Lets start with fact #1. Seems pretty straightforeward and I can\'t really disagree. The meat industry does harm the environment, which in turn has consequences that are widespread. However, the agriculture industry is just as, or more harmful. To keep our food free of insects and other organisms, we spray millions of gallons of environmentally harmful pesticides on our crops, which runoff into streams, and eventually the ocean. Some of this is even blamed for the deaths of certain coral reefs, species extinction, and drinking water contamination leading to birth defects and mental disorders in humans.
Fact #2 - I just want more information. I\'m not saying right or wrong, but what do you mean exactly? How does it affect the health care system more say pure vegitarianism, which can be harmful to some people? What exactly is the issue with the \"way\" we\'re eating? Is it ammount/rate of consumption, or something else?
Fact #3 The practices that led to mad cow disease are now well under control. We no longer feed dead cows to cows or dead pigs to pigs, thus eliminating the major way it spread. This practice is long obsolete. As for bird flu, I wasn\'t even aware that it was a prionic disease. For it to be meat practices that are causing it it would have to be, because properly prepared meat kills bacteria due to the high heat. Prions are a different sort of disease causing entity, and thus are subject to different conditions for transmision and control.
Fact #4 is really an opinion not a fact. It is only a fact as far as yourself is concerned, and no matter how wholeheartedly you believe it, this does not make it a fact. Still though, regulations are getting harsher as to animal cruelty, and there are more and more humane ways of putting the animals down now. I know an autistic person who\'s entire job is running the corrals and helping them design animal friendlier slaughterhouses. Also, how un-cruel is shooting a frightened running animal with an arrow, bow, or spear, spilling its blood till it collapses exhausted and bleeding only to be killed later by another arrow or by a rock to the head? Hunting isn\'t pretty either, but what do animals do to each other in the wild? Many high level predators begin consuming their prey before they are even completely dead. Others simply hunt in gruesome fashion. Others eat the children of their competition. My point is really that humans are animals as well, and the animal kingdom is full of ruthless cruel predators, and violence in general. Survival of the fittest is a term that has no bearing on the human race anymore, and as such when we witness it, it seems needlessly cruel to us.
Sadly, the people who are so extremely concerned for animals, while nice sounding, shows just how out of touch people are with nature.
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*Points up
The only part I disagree with is a bit of fact 4. It sounds like you are making an excuse for humans to do this/ act in this manner. But as to nearly everything else.. ditto
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I wasn\'t making an excuse, only trying to place the current state of events into perspective with the natural violence of nature, and to show that we are a part of that as well. You can\'t use that to justify actions, but you can use it as a reference to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Mad Cow disease is from feeding cow to cows.
not strictly true the main source is believed to be from scabies infected sheep by-products
The only part I disagree with is a bit of fact 4. It sounds like you are making an excuse for humans to do this/ act in this manner. But as to nearly everything else.. ditto
If you meant my answer to fact 4 I can supply chemical and physiological evidence to back up my claim here is one link here (http://ars.sdstate.edu/beefinfo/frequently_asked_questions.htm)
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Fact #4 is really an opinion not a fact. It is only a fact as far as yourself is concerned, and no matter how wholeheartedly you believe it, this does not make it a fact. Still though, regulations are getting harsher as to animal cruelty, and there are more and more humane ways of putting the animals down now. I know an autistic person who\'s entire job is running the corrals and helping them design animal friendlier slaughterhouses. Also, how un-cruel is shooting a frightened running animal with an arrow, bow, or spear, spilling its blood till it collapses exhausted and bleeding only to be killed later by another arrow or by a rock to the head? Hunting isn\'t pretty either, but what do animals do to each other in the wild? Many high level predators begin consuming their prey before they are even completely dead. Others simply hunt in gruesome fashion. Others eat the children of their competition. My point is really that humans are animals as well, and the animal kingdom is full of ruthless cruel predators, and violence in general. Survival of the fittest is a term that has no bearing on the human race anymore, and as such when we witness it, it seems needlessly cruel to us.
indy, baby! That\'s gold! I hate how people think that we\'re not part of nature. If you break it down, we\'re also just animals, who are meant to take part in the violence of nature to survive and keep the cycle going..
But I also agree with the other side, cause we are overdoing it...alot. I mean come on! Feeding cows to cows?! Nice...
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Originally posted by lanser
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Mad Cow disease is from feeding cow to cows.
not strictly true the main source is believed to be from scabies infected sheep by-products
The only part I disagree with is a bit of fact 4. It sounds like you are making an excuse for humans to do this/ act in this manner. But as to nearly everything else.. ditto
If you meant my answer to fact 4 I can supply chemical and physiological evidence to back up my claim here is one link here (http://ars.sdstate.edu/beefinfo/frequently_asked_questions.htm)
Hmm I watched a documentary on the discovery channel.. and that was the given reason.. but if you have a link of information proving it can from sheep then I will have a look. and the second part was a direct reply to Induanes post right above it :P.
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Originally posted by Induane
Sadly, the people who are so extremely concerned for animals, while nice sounding, shows just how out of touch people are with nature.
Natural does not mean moral.
And mad cow disease is still around, so I take issue with your definition of \"under control\". The truth is that we don\'t even know the full scope of the damage that was done.
These people who use \"natural\" to justify their lifestyle don\'t have much to stand on. Vacines aren\'t natural, drinking milk into adulthood isn\'t natural, TV and computers aren\'t natural, drinking the milk of other animals isn\'t natural. And there are plenty of other things which are natural but we all agree are bad. Natural equals good is a really bad argument to make.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Hmm I watched a documentary on the discovery channel.. and that was the given reason.. but if you have a link of information proving it can from sheep then I will have a look. and the second part was a direct reply to Induanes post right above it :P.
Linky (http://www.bseinquiry.gov.uk/report/volume1/execsum4.htm#669611)
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I very well may have been wrong. When I get home from work today Ill look into it a bit more. But it seems your link is valid at the least being a .gov site. Usually they have good info.
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Natural does not mean moral.
Why use a relative term to describe a relative term? Natural is what we make it. Same with moral. We\'ve all different ideas about things. I tried to define the word natural by the context in which I used it, but now the word \"moral\" pops up. I\'d bet that there are millions of different opinions of the word moral. Your personal defination does not take precidence over mine, nor mine yours.
And mad cow disease is still around, so I take issue with your definition of \"under control\". The truth is that we don\'t even know the full scope of the damage that was done.
I think the idea is that the actions that were the worst risk are under control, but yes, the full scope is as of yet unknown, and under control is another relative term. No sense arguing varying degrees of it. :D
These people who use \"natural\" to justify their lifestyle don\'t have much to stand on. Vacines aren\'t natural, drinking milk into adulthood isn\'t natural, TV and computers aren\'t natural, drinking the milk of other animals isn\'t natural. And there are plenty of other things which are natural but we all agree are bad. Natural equals good is a really bad argument to make.
I never said natural = good. I said natural = natural, simply taking a step back and realizing that we all have our part to play; I am an animal, so are you - we are part of a society. Sometimes in order to maintain the style of a society, that society makes generalities giving a commond ground of similar or compatible goals, and lifestyles. Means of doing thing are very dynamic in the human world, but that doesn\'t mean its not natural. Different societies are found all around the animal kingdom, each with their own rules and ways. I understand that you can\'t say for instance rape is natural in the animal kingdom, so it is natural for humans to rape, and therefore it is ok to rape. This is because humans formed a society in which that was considered wrong. This was done as a natural progression for population control, mental conditioning, etc... People get into religion here, using a common book to say that morals are absolute. I understand this a bit better, as its a common ground for people to help define their socitey, and is an easy way to have common morals within a group without having to justify it in any way.
I consider natural natures progression of genetics, behavior, and societal evolutions, which includes technological advances.
You\'ll note I never said you can use \"natural\" to justify actions. You really seemed to miss my point.
POINT:
Everything in the world is linked as part of a giant system. Each part of the system has its place. Humans, like other animals are part of this enormous giant mindboggling complex organism that is our planet. When we forget that we are a part of the system and start thinking we are above the system we run into problems with our own perceptions. Suddenly we are the focal point, and everything is below us, which is an illusion created by our own misconceptions, stubbornness, and overal inability to comprehend something larger than ourselves.
Other point: You cannot use relative personal terms to prove \"Facts\". Use empirical evidence, and scientific terms. Moral, Natural, etc... bad words as it is easy to fall into a disagreement of terms which takes away from a healthy discussion.
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I\'ll rephrase it: We shouldn\'t do something just because it\'s natural.
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Thats was what your point was all along? ?(
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Originally posted by zanzibar
I\'ll rephrase it: We shouldn\'t do something just because it\'s natural.
Is it natural if we have the rationale to not do it?
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Originally posted by Induane
Thats was what your point was all along? ?(
One of them.
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Originally posted by zanzibar
I\'ll rephrase it: We shouldn\'t do something just because it\'s natural.
Is it natural if we have the rationale to not do it?
In that instance, you\'re using a different definition of natural than how others were previously. Some would argue that vegetarianism is \"natural\" based on biological, sociological, or even positivist-philosophical grounds. I think that when people say \"natural\" however as others have in this discussion, they\'re invoking such things as the image of \'man\' as a hunter gatherer.
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is a tofurkey (tofu turkey) natural? Just a random question...
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Originally posted by Golarim
is a tofurkey (tofu turkey) natural? Just a random question...
It depends on your definition of natural. To me, it\'s just not very good.:)
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Lanser:
I believe the link you gave me disproves your arguement or atleast doesnt prove anything.
- the source of infection in the MBM was tissues derived from sheep infected with conventional scrapie;
The cases of BSE identified between 1986 and 1988 were not index cases, nor were they the result of the transmission of scrapie. They were the consequences of recycling of cattle infected with BSE itself. The BSE agent was spread in MBM.
BSE probably originated from a novel source early in the 1970s, possibly a cow or other animal that developed disease as a consequence of a gene mutation. The origin of the disease will probably never be known with certainty.
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mostly I have been reading zanzibars responses to me so I didn\'t notice this by Lanser:
not strictly true the main source is believed to be from scabies infected sheep by-products
Well lets examine prions.
Prions are basically protein fragments. In fact every person actually has many healthy prions inside their brains right now. Prions that cause these diseases are proteins that had their malfunctioned during their formation and became misshaped. This happens fairly regularly, and is even thought to be a possible cause for altzheimers. Kuru came about because of certain cannabilistic tribes. A person within the tribe had malformed prions, and died as a result. The tribe consumed the brain of the deceased, and as a result became infected, the consequences of which continued for as long as they were a cannabilistic tribe. Because of Lamarckian evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism), the trend continued even after they were no longer cannabilistic tribes. Lamarckian evolution is a process in which traits can be exerted on an organism during their lifetimes that can be passed down genetically. Thus, prolonged cannibilism caused some of these people to pass the disease on indirectly, from parent to child. It is also important to note that some prions can cause disease in a multitude of hosts.
In the meat industry, the leftovers from the slaughter house were used to create food for the cattle on hand. This was done to be less wasteful and save money. The long short of this is that changing which animal that the animal byproduct is fed to doesn\'t stop these from being harmful or transmitted, but it does stop the Lamarckian evolution from causing all of our cattle from becomming genetically predisposed to having the disease from birth, thus saving us from ending up with a population of tainted cattle which we can do nothing with. Cannibilism is a behavior which can perpetuate and induce prionic diseases into a given group, but does not cause the disease directly.
There is little known about the disencfection of prions, other than it has been shown that high degrees of UV light may render them inactive.
and then.....
In that instance, you\'re using a different definition of natural than how others were previously. Some would argue that vegetarianism is \"natural\" based on biological, sociological, or even positivist-philosophical grounds. I think that when people say \"natural\" however as others have in this discussion, they\'re invoking such things as the image of \'man\' as a hunter gatherer.
Heh, thats the rub isn\'t it? Defining the issue is sometimes very difficult given everyones own opinions on one word. A technicality to be sure but it can sure get in the way hehe.
I\'ve more but I\'ll probabily need another post to do it.
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In that instance, you\'re using a different definition of natural than how others were previously. Some would argue that vegetarianism is \"natural\" based on biological, sociological, or even positivist-philosophical grounds. I think that when people say \"natural\" however as others have in this discussion, they\'re invoking such things as the image of \'man\' as a hunter gatherer.
BTW, I am using \"Natural\" like I would Instinct. I dont mean what is made natural through society. A factor independent, void of society or any influence in that regard. Something we are born with. Many keep saying how we are apart of the animal kingdom. And these animals that we speak of act in some ways natural because of instinct... what do we do because of instinct?
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Sorry to post so much, reading over this thread really gets me really riled up.
Quote:Originally posted by Zan
- People who feel the need to tell others how to live their lives .. over and over
Yeah, what right do we have to stop gang violence? It\'s just the way they choose to live their lives.
Edit: Oh wait, the way a person lives can affect other people in the world. Who would have thought!
Your example of gang violence doesn\'t really work. The issue here is obviously personal rights. To a certain extent societies use governments to tell others how to live their lives. That is what a society does - it defines a set of ways to live by. They are usually designed by necessity, and revolve around maintiaining civil order. My grandfather used to say \"Civilization is but a thin veneer.\" and I agree with him. There is a fine line there, and it as soon as something happens and law enforcement leaves, you\'ll see the reason we define rules within society. When Hurricane Katrina hit the US there was looting, killing, etc...
The important thing to remember in a society is that usually a person still has unlimited rights, but their rights extend only as far as themselves. So for instance I\'m perfectly free to flail about wildly while brandishing more sharp swords than I can handle, while riding a unicylce on an unwashed (and possibly prion filled) hamburger patty; and thats well and dandy. BUT, if I were to move that rolling array of death and stupidity into a place inhabited by other people, this would be unacceptable as I am putting others at risk - without their choice. If they choose to come to your house and watch this bizzare spectacle at close range despite your warning then it is a different story. Similarly society defines rules like that with some exceptions, but those are usually from the narrow minded type people. These sorts of rules are usually based around religious practices, and aren\'t something that harm others. Same with regulating certain substances such as marajuanna. These types of rules are exceptions, though they seem to be enacted because some people tend to not worry about how they affect others. I.E. Drinking is legal, but drinking and driving are not. Drinking doesn\'t hurt anyone else, drinking and driving puts others at risk. These types of rules are more common. SO,....
what I\'m getting at with this is basically that a person shouldn\'t be forcing their personal beliefs on someone, as that is personal. That said if Zanzibar saw me performing my wild unicycle act in a crowd of children he should definately put an end to it if possible or call the authorities immeadiatly. However if he saw me sitting on my back porch smoking weed alone before I go to bed, then he should leave well enough alone and not tell me what I can and can\'t do.....
thats how I feel about it anyways :D
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And if that smoke drifts through the open window leading to your neighbour\'s nursery?
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A person needs to strike a balance between considering the wellbeing of another and getting something done.
If a person leaves the window to their nursery open, they assume the risk that a multitude of things could enter. I\'m not sitting outside the window of the nursery deliberately blowing smoke at their children.
By your logic I should also refrain from using the restroom because my feces could contain a terrible bacteria, and when it goes through the sewage system it grows on the insides of the pipes infecting them and eventually moving throughout the sewage system and returning to the toilets which contaminate everyone in every home who then all die.
I should also probabily not drive a car because I could inadvertently kill someone.
I should also not ever leave the house because there is the possibility that I could inadvertantly do harm to another... in fact the real solution is suicide because that is the only way I know I will not physically damage another person... wait I have a family - they might not be able to eat or have a house... so I would be doing them harm.... what a delima.
Seriously - its one thing to take care to not harm others, its quite another to be paralized by that fear.
/rant
Wow I don\'t think I\'ve been so angry at such a statement... probabily it was simply designed to instigate a response which it did :)
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Right. You don\'t intend to hurt others with your actions, but you end up doing it anyway.
That\'s how many vegetarians feel about those who eat meat.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Right. You don\'t intend to hurt others with your actions, but you end up doing it anyway.
That\'s how many vegetarians feel about those who eat meat.
am I right in assuming that you also have no leather products nor any other animal derived materials, that you use no form of IC powered transport and your PC is solar powered?
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Originally posted by lanser
Originally posted by zanzibar
Right. You don\'t intend to hurt others with your actions, but you end up doing it anyway.
That\'s how many vegetarians feel about those who eat meat.
am I right in assuming that you also have no leather products nor any other animal derived materials, that you use no form of IC powered transport and your PC is solar powered?
I\'m not vegan.:) And no, you aren\'t the first non-veg*an to use the \"leather wallet\" argument. It falls apart though, because vegetarians tend to focus in on the meat industry for the reasons I\'ve given earlier in this thread. A vegan would definately agree with you though and say that any foot print which we can make smaller is too big.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Right. You don\'t intend to hurt others with your actions, but you end up doing it anyway.
I\'m not vegan.:) And no, you aren\'t the first non-veg*an to use the \"leather wallet\" argument. It falls apart though, because vegetarians tend to focus in on the meat industry for the reasons I\'ve given earlier in this thread. A vegan would definately agree with you though and say that any foot print which we can make smaller is too big.
but by your own quote you are doing what you accuse meat eaters of doing, a slight bit of hypocrisy don\'t you think?
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Originally posted by lanser
Originally posted by zanzibar
Right. You don\'t intend to hurt others with your actions, but you end up doing it anyway.
I\'m not vegan.:) And no, you aren\'t the first non-veg*an to use the \"leather wallet\" argument. It falls apart though, because vegetarians tend to focus in on the meat industry for the reasons I\'ve given earlier in this thread. A vegan would definately agree with you though and say that any foot print which we can make smaller is too big.
but by your own quote you are doing what you accuse meat eaters of doing, a slight bit of hypocrisy don\'t you think?
What you\'re putting forward is the \"leather wallet\" argument: \'If you have any footprint at all, then you aren\'t allowed to comment on the footprint of others.\'
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I am sorry but that just doesn\'t wash, if you are prepared to use a product of the meat industry then you may as well be eating the meat.
I refer you back to your original quote with one of your analogies and no I am not comparing the meat industry with rape you did that
During a rape some jewellery is stolen, would you buy the jewellery? If not then with your point of view why buy leather?
Right. You don\'t intend to hurt others with your actions, but you end up doing it anyway.
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Originally posted by lanser
I am sorry but that just doesn\'t wash, if you are prepared to use a product of the meat industry then you may as well be eating the meat.
Nope. Eating a marshmellow which contains gelatin does not leave the same environmental footprint as eating a steak.
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Really I\'m not even sure what you are exactly trying to say Zanzibar. Is it that the meat industry is a threat to the environment? And can you really say that it is more a threat than agriculture, which is the most destructive force we have come up with yet.
Do plants have feelings? Well... they have no nerves, but they are certainly capible of reacting to stimuli and injury, even in real time. Smash certain types of ferns and the plant quivers and curls up. We may not be able to understand a plants suffering in the way we relate to animals because we are more similar to animals than we are to plants. Most people would hate to eat any animal that we consider pets, as suddenly we relate to them on a different level. They aren\'t food they are pets. Thats the reason we have so many jokes about asians eating cats. If we were more like plants we\'d be able to relate to them as well.
Fruits are a different story, as they simply are the reproductive body of a plant, and usually drop off the plant on their own. Vegitables, which are all other plant products, are a different story. Its ok for us to cut them up in any way, slaughter fields of them, etc...
I\'m not saying plants have to be put on the same levels as animals, but I just don\'t think personally it really matters. The way we relate to things dictates how we think they should be treated.
On another note, have you ever flown in an airplane Zanzibar? I\'m not asking to be condescending, but I ask because it always makes me kind of sad when I do. so much of america no longer looks at all like it hasn\'t been ruined by humans. The landscape is polygonal, full of rectangles sliced into the earth making a wholy unnatural scene. I look down and I\'m hard pressed to find land that we havn\'t affected in some way. While some nature preserves are still around, we\'ve been the most destructive force to ever walk this earth. Nothing escapes our existance. We plow the soil, cutting trenches to sow our seeds, for the entire purpose of feeding on them - just like we do with cattle. They are raised for death. The agricultural practices threw the entire midwest of America into the \"Dust Bowl\" a time so dry that rain evaporated before it hit the ground, and giant dust storms plowed across the plains, followed by grasshopper swarms which devoured even leather wagon tongues, and anything else they could manage to chew,
I\'m not sure what gigantic catastrophic events the cattle industry has caused, but it is certainly possible. The illusion is that the solution is eating plants, but FACT: agriculture is the most destructive force we humans have unless we were to set off all the worlds nukes simultaneously.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by lanser
I am sorry but that just doesn\'t wash, if you are prepared to use a product of the meat industry then you may as well be eating the meat.
I refer you back to your original quote with one of your analogies and no I am not comparing the meat industry with rape you did that
During a rape some jewellery is stolen, would you buy the jewellery? If not then with your point of view why buy leather?
Nope. Eating a marshmellow which contains gelatin does not leave the same environmental footprint as eating a steak.
Since you didn\'t answer my question directly does that mean the because the theft did not leave as big a \"footprint\" on the victim as the rape itself it is ok?
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Plants are not concious, sentient, emotional, self aware, or capable of sensation.
Originally posted by lanser
Since you didn\'t answer my question directly does that mean the because the theft did not leave as big a \"footprint\" on the victim as the rape itself it is ok?
I answered your question directly.
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Plants are not concious, sentient, emotional, self aware, or capable of sensation.
Conscious: a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one\'s environment.
Sentient: the capacity for basic consciousness ? the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness.
Self Aware: having or showing knowledge or understanding or realization or perception, aware of ones own existance; \"was aware of his opponent\'s hostility\"; \"became aware of her surroundings\"; \"aware that he had exceeded the speed limit\"
Emotional: the language of a person\'s mental state of being, normally based in or tied to the person\'s internal (physical) and external (social) sensory feeling. Love, hate, courage, fear, joy, sadness, pleasure and disgust can all be described in both psychological and physiological terms.
So... Consiousness, self awareness, and sentience are basically the same thing, or at least interdepenant on each other. They are also human only qualities as far as science can show so far. No animals besides humans are sentient.
As for emotional, emotion is something that animals have the capacity to posess. It is a more primative mental state, but humans are endowed with it as well. So are you saying that it is only cruel to eat animals that are complex enough to possibly have emotions?
As for react to stimuli, the notion that plants do not react to stimuli is pure rubbish. Suggesting otherwise really surprised me as I would assume someone of your intelligence (no trace of sarcasm - I certainly do consider you intelligent, otherwise I\'d not post back so often :) ) would be aware that not only do nearly all plants react to stimuli, but that reaction to stimulus is an essential part of plants.
Plant stimuls reactions are divided into two main categories, tropism, and Turgor Movements.
Tropism is a reaction to stimuls that changes the growth pattern of a plant. A common example would be phototropism, which causes plants to grow towards the best light source.
Turgor movements are the plants equivilant to muscle movement, and works similar to the starfishes water pressure based movement system. The changes in pressure allow plants to move very rapidly. A venus flytrap can close its jaws around an insect, certain plants close their flowers at night time, and sunflowers follow the suns path across the sky (hence the name). Also as I mentioned earlier plants can sense touch, - certain ferns shrink away and fold up when you touch them. THey also close up when damage has been done to help heal.
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Someone essentially said: Hurting plants is just as bad as hurting animals, because plants can suffer.
My point is that this is bunk. Plants do not experience pain. Plants do not experience.
As far as sentiency, a definition I like of sentiency is \"thinking about thinking\". When you think of it that way, some humans aren\'t terrible sentient and some humans are more sentient than others. And who knows what animals truly think? Can we say with certainty that they have no level of sentiency at all?
That, however, is a tangent and it distracts from what\'s really being said here.
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My point is that this is bunk. Plants do not experience pain. Plants do not experience.
That is quite possible, but just as we may not know on what level there is a possibility that animals have some level of sentience, we really don\'t know exactly on what level plants do or do not expirence. If you are willing to speculate that some animals could be sentient on some level it is just as possible to speculate that plants can expirence on some level.
That, however, is a tangent and it distracts from what\'s really being said here.
Well it does define some of what is being said within the discussion and frame some things in so its not totally useless. Useless tangents are the worst.
What do you think about the negative aspects of the agriculture industry? You didn\'t respond to that point either time I made it, and only snagged a small detail out of the posts to disgree with.
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1. Spam
2. meaning this thread
3. meaning people like you
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I hate spam too, used to eat it all the time as a kid but now.. blech ;)
1. Spam
2. meaning this thread
3. meaning people like you
Meaning? Do you mean meeting? Meanness?
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Originally posted by Induane
I hate spam too, used to eat it all the time as a kid but now.. blech ;)
1. Spam
2. meaning this thread
3. meaning people like you
Meaning? Do you mean meeting? Meanness?
I don\'t answer vikings, they are illiterate
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Says the lesser hydlaa citizen ...
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you clearly didn\'t get the joke zan...
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by lanser
Since you didn\'t answer my question directly does that mean the because the theft did not leave as big a \"footprint\" on the victim as the rape itself it is ok?
I answered your question directly.
err no you didn\'t answer directly you said something about marshmallows the question was phrased using one of your analogies
During a rape some jewellery is stolen, would you buy the jewellery? If not then with your point of view why buy leather?
and your reply was
Nope. Eating a marshmellow which contains gelatin does not leave the same environmental footprint as eating a steak.
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This is a pure speculation, if it would be scientifically proven that plants endure pain, on a similar or greater level then we or other animals do, would you insist that humans starve to death, just because they cannot get away without feasting on something?
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Originally posted by lanser
err no you didn\'t answer directly you said something about marshmallows the question was phrased using one of your analogies
I answered your question directly. It\'s extremely difficult to not have any kind of footprint, but there are things you can do to make your footprint smaller.
Having the same leather wallet for ten years does not have the same footprint as eating meat for the same amount of time. Therefore while having a leather wallet might support the meat industry in some small way, it is not at all \'exactly the same\'.
Originally posted by Cyl
This is a pure speculation, if it would be scientifically proven that plants endure pain, on a similar or greater level then we or other animals do, would you insist that humans starve to death, just because they cannot get away without feasting on something?
That\'s a stupid question, because plants do not endure pain. Period.
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Zanzibar.. the more you go on.. the more you sound like a hypocrite. If you care so much about the well being of animals.. dont use any products that are gathered through the injuring/hurting of any animal. And be consistant.
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Maybe we could feast on rocks! Remember to story of the Stone Soup?
burned up dude:
Illiterate: not able to read or write
Prove that. :D
Meaning? Do you mean meeting? Meanness?
^note sarcasm!
This is a pure speculation, if it would be scientifically proven that plants endure pain, on a similar or greater level then we or other animals do, would you insist that humans starve to death, just because they cannot get away without feasting on something?
An interesting question. How far do we go with that mentality? Should we diminish our own existance as a consequence?
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Zanzibar.. the more you go on.. the more you sound like a hypocrite. If you care so much about the well being of animals.. dont use any products that are gathered through the injuring/hurting of any animal. And be consistant.
It\'s like you haven\'t been reading my posts.
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Originally posted by Induane
Maybe we could feast on rocks! Remember to story of thje Stone Soup?
burned up dude:
Illiterate: not able to read or write
Prove that. :D
Meaning? Do you mean meeting? Meanness?
^note sarcasm!
This is a pure speculation, if it would be scientifically proven that plants endure pain, on a similar or greater level then we or other animals do, would you insist that humans starve to death, just because they cannot get away without feasting on something?
An interesting question. How far do we go with that mentality? Should we diminish our own existance as a consequence?
induane you are officially insane, how many pc\'s do they have at the mental institute arizona for vikins?
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@ Zanzibar
It\'s like you counter any decent argument with \"You don\'t understand what I\'m talking about!\" Such a mature intelligent discussion, this. :D
Yeah I know I said I wouldn\'t jump into this argument again but this is too much fun to leave alone.
@ Burned man
Maybe you didn\'t get my joke ;)
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Originally posted by Cyl
This is a pure speculation, if it would be scientifically proven that plants endure pain, on a similar or greater level then we or other animals do, would you insist that humans starve to death, just because they cannot get away without feasting on something?
That\'s a stupid question, because plants do not endure pain. Period.
Well it is a pure Hypothetical question. What if? Let\'s formulate it in another way. What if the human race wouldnt have the choice to hurt something, of which they know that it endures pain, or to hurt something, of which they belive that it doesnt endure pain. The only avaible option in this case would be to hurt to survive.
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Originally posted by Zan
@ Zanzibar
It\'s like you counter any decent argument with \"You don\'t understand what I\'m talking about!\"
Not at all. I\'ve answered every question so far up to that last one, and it seemed that V. truly did not read (understand, whatever) what I posted.
That gives me three options:
-repeat myself
-paraphrase myself
-suggest that he rereads what I wrote
Originally posted by Cyl
Well it is a pure Hypothetical question. What if? Let\'s formulate it in another way. What if the human race wouldnt have the choice to hurt something, of which they know that it endures pain, or to hurt something, of which they belive that it doesnt endure pain. The only avaible option in this case would be to hurt to survive.
It might be hypothetical, but it\'s also irrelevant.
\"Hunting\" would be the only means of survival only if you defined agriculture as hunting.
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induane you are officially insane, how many pc\'s do they have at the mental institute arizona for vikins?
Well, quite a few actually -all with T3 connections! Yay! AND all of ours have spellcheck for illiterate people like me. ;) j/k
Anyways insanity is what you make it. You are free to disagree with my personal opinions, but just because you didn\'t get my little bit of humor doesn\'t make me insane.
That\'s a stupid question, because plants do not endure pain. Period.
Prove animals \"endure\" pain, and that their response to trauma isn\'t merely instinctive or a natural reaction that isn\'t related to feelings. As I said before plants react to trauma, just not in the exact same way. Because certain animals emote it in a way more like humans do you seem to think that that makes it wrong. I\'m not saying I believe plants suffer anguish, only saying you really can\'t prove it any more than you can prove that animals truely really expirence things the way we do.
So lets have it. Do you want more agriculture? Less meat consumption? - What are your exact beliefs on :
1.) Agriculture - Explain why you think there should be more or less of it.
2.) Consumption of animal products - Explain why you think there should be less or more of this.
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Zanizibar
I have read every post you have made.. and I fully understand... however your not actually answering the questions thrown at you. Maybe someday you will be a great politician. Heres what I want.. which you have not done as of yet, what do you think should be done? More farming, less raising of cattle? What do you actually believe instead of the beating around the bush here.
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@ Induane:
I\'ve already answered those questions.
You really want me to prove that animals feel pain and that plants do not? Don\'t be stupid.
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Zanizibar
I have read every post you have made.. and I fully understand... however your not actually answering the questions thrown at you. Maybe someday you will be a great politician. Heres what I want.. which you have not done as of yet, what do you think should be done? More farming, less raising of cattle? What do you actually believe instead of the beating around the bush here.
Those are not the questions you were asking before.
They are also questions I have already answered.
There are good and bad ways to do agriculture. The meat industry is worse IMHO for a variety of reasons. More agriculture isn\'t the solution by itself; it has to be smarter agriculture at the same time, but it is possible.
This line of discussion distracts from the real issue.
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The real issue was whether or not bad practices in the meat industry, which have lead to prionic diseases, as well as animal cruelty, are justification for telling people that it is immoral, or wrong to eat meat right? I\'m not exactly sure as the topic is a thread tangent anyways. I simply took issue with a few points made. If I\'m wrong about the main topic let me know so I can stay on topic more aptly.
Don\'t tell me not to be stupid. I\'ve every right to be as stupid as I want, as do you, though you seem to use that right more often than I remembered you did. Besides, I wasn\'t really challenging you to prove anything. The question was rhetorical. The point was that unless you are a cow or a horse or a tree or a fern, you cannot really say what they expirence. That isn\'t saying that you can justify animal cruelty, only that we may not have the whole picture and stating some of these things as absolute \"facts\" is misleading.
Since you admit that agricultural practices can be harmful as well, and agree that it would take better practices to make vegitarian diets mainstream, could you not also concede that it may be possible to change the meat industry for the better? Practices have improved drastically in recent years, and research is being done to find ways to make it less \"cruel\".
I personally think that both industries could use improvement. A vegitarian diet isn\'t completely healthy without supliments for now, so for it to be really viable we\'d have to make foods a bit more nutricious. We would also need to remove the High Fructose Corn syrup which is present in nearly every non meat food from soda to hamburger buns. This sweetener isn\'t especially healthy.
I do think it is wrong to criticize a persons choice to follow their natural omnivorious state simply because some people disapprove of the means with which they get their meat. The same goes in reverse of course, if there are many carnivor only people out there... :D
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Originally posted by Induane
The real issue was whether or not bad practices in the meat industry, which have lead to prionic diseases, as well as animal cruelty, are justification for telling people that it is immoral, or wrong to eat meat right?
The reasons you just listed, along with a variety of other reasons, add up to be justification for telling people that it is wrong to eat meat. That\'s my opinion, of course, but I\'m fairly confident in and comfortable with it.
Originally posted by Induane
it would take better practices to make vegitarian diets mainstream
I never agreed to that.
Originally posted by Induane
A vegitarian diet isn\'t completely healthy without supliments
Those supliments are available from vegetarian sources.
Originally posted by Induane
I do think it is wrong to criticize a persons choice to follow their natural omnivorious state
If I feel that a person\'s lifestyle is harmful to others, then I feel I have every right to be publically critical of it.
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Originally posted by Induane
Don\'t tell me not to be stupid. I\'ve every right to be as stupid as I want, as do you, though you seem to use that right more often than I remembered you did. Besides, I wasn\'t really challenging you to prove anything. The question was rhetorical. The point was that unless you are a cow or a horse or a tree or a fern, you cannot really say what they expirence. That isn\'t saying that you can justify animal cruelty, only that we may not have the whole picture and stating some of these things as absolute \"facts\" is misleading.
Well said Induane. The irony is that this post was one of your \"smarter\" ones. So, by posting a smart post you are complying to zanzibars request.
@ Zanzibar
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm
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For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He regards all challenges as barbarians at the gates. His unflagging tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the opposition. Confident that his arguments are sound, Tireless Rebutter can\'t understand why he is universally loathed.
That\'s a very rude thing to say about me. People have asked me questions and I\'ve done my best to answer them. You\'re an ass.
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My favorite responses to rabidly idealistic vegetarians.
1. If humans were intended to be vegetarian, our teeth would be large, flat, and have much more enamel.
2. \"See these?\" *points to canine teeth and incisors* \"They have a purpose and it isn\'t for chewing plant matter\"
3. Man is an omnivore and an opportunist. Without these traits, he would have died out long before.
4. Go ahead and turn down those evil animal products. There are people in other parts of the world without the luxury of picking their meals. More for them.
Vegetarianism for health reasons is one thing. Veganism, or if someone does it out of idealism I want those people to do me a favor. First, go find every single piece of leather in your house, and bury it. Then, don\'t use glue, wear wool or own any furniture that uses it, own any type of carnivorous/omnivorous animal, get vaccinated, eat most major brand names of bread, use anything containing gelatin, or toothpaste (some brands contain fish scales), and vitamin supplements (gelcaps are made from, you guessed it, gelatin), some enzyme supplements are taken from bacteria grown in petri that is cultered from boiled animal blood and gelatin. Oh yeah, and most soap is made from animal fat. There is a larger list here: http://www.vnv.org.au/AnimalProducts.htm
The fact that animals and possibly some plants feel pain is basically irrelavant. If they didn\'t have some way of sensing danger or damage to themselves, they wouldn\'t have survived this long. Read: Extinction.
I\'m proud of being at the top of the food chain, and I am not going to sacrifice my physical well being for something too stupid and complacent to save itself. I will, however try to make some allowances. If I don\'t have a use for an animal or plant, and it isn\'t being offensive or noxious in some way, I\'m not going to destroy it. The whole \"eat what you kill\" and \"everything in moderation\" concepts at work.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
That\'s a very rude thing to say about me. People have asked me questions and I\'ve done my best to answer them. You\'re an ass.
I apologize for insulting you
I personally found it to be funny, and thought you would see the humor in it. As you did not, I am sorry I offended you. In the future I will refrain from any similar jabs at you
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1. If humans were intended to be vegetarian, our teeth would be large, flat, and have much more enamel.
i) That\'s debatable.
ii) What is natural is not necessarily moral.
2. \"See these?\" *points to canine teeth and incisors* \"They have a purpose and it isn\'t for chewing plant matter\"
i) They aren\'t canines, and they aren\'t much good for eating raw meat.
ii) What is natural is not necessarily moral.
3. Man is an omnivore and an opportunist. Without these traits, he would have died out long before.
i) Such a lifestyle has negative consequences.
ii) What is natural is not necessarily moral.
4. Go ahead and turn down those evil animal products. There are people in other parts of the world without the luxury of picking their meals. More for them.
i) Irrelevant.
ii) See above.
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But what is moral? When I was in East Asia it was considered perfectly moral to raise and eat a dog just as you would a cow. (too stringy and dry for my taste).
Who defines what is moral and what isn\'t? It is all up to you. If a man grew up without influence of any other human beings, would he have a moral compunction against killing one if he encountered it? Morals of a person in ______ country/religion/social group could be completely different than mine. Doesn\'t make them worse or better. My only pet peeve is that if someone takes a moral stance on an issue, they need to be consistent. Anything less lowers their credibility.
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Sorry Zanzibar still not satisfied that you have given me a direct answer, but if I follow your \"footprint\" then it seems that you find stealing from a rape victim acceptable but because it doesn\'t do as much harm.
@ Goldir I agree completely Morality is a system of principles and judgments based on cultural, religious, and philosophical concepts and beliefs, by which humans determine whether given actions are right or wrong. These concepts and beliefs are often generalized and codified by a culture or group, and thus serve to regulate the behaviour of its members. Conformity to such codification may also be called morality, and the group may depend on widespread conformity to such codes for its continued existence.
raising a further point for discussion, we have both agreed that agriculture is bad for the environment, but if the whole world went vegetarian where would all the protein for our diet come from?
How many extra acres of wheat/rice would need to be planted? How much rain forest would have to be ripped up to supply our planets increasing population?
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Originally posted by Goldir
But what is moral? When I was in East Asia it was considered perfectly moral to raise and eat a dog just as you would a cow. (too stringy and dry for my taste).
Who defines what is moral and what isn\'t? It is all up to you. If a man grew up without influence of any other human beings, would he have a moral compunction against killing one if he encountered it? Morals of a person in ______ country/religion/social group could be completely different than mine. Doesn\'t make them worse or better. My only pet peeve is that if someone takes a moral stance on an issue, they need to be consistent. Anything less lowers their credibility.
Most people agree that hurting other humans is bad. That\'s why I\'m vegetarian (in part).
Originally posted by lanser
Sorry Zanzibar still not satisfied that you have given me a direct answer, but if I follow your \"footprint\" then it seems that you find stealing from a rape victim acceptable but because it doesn\'t do as much harm.
You\'re really reaching on this one.
Your original statement was:
\"During a rape some jewellery is stolen, would you buy the jewellery? If not then with your point of view why buy leather? \"
In your original statement, you\'re buying the jewellery and not stealing it. Also, you\'re buying it from a rapist, not stealing it from a rape victim. Stop changing your story.
And no. I\'ve never said that I found it acceptable. I find it irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Is it immoral to support the meat industry in rather disconnected ways such as drinking milk and having a leather wallet? Some people say it is. Is it as bad as eating meat throughout your leff? Heck no.
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Being a vegetarian is a choice, and I respect your right to make that choice.
Sadly, you seem to be living in a fantasy world. Morality may mean a lot to those who have everything but, to many it comes second to survival.
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Originally posted by Waylander
Being a vegetarian is a choice, and I respect your right to make that choice.
Sadly, you seem to be living in a fantasy world. Morality may mean a lot to those who have everything but, to many it comes second to survival.
Do you believe that for you and me it comes down to survival?
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i eat meat, at work and i eat only meat - chicken, cow, pig and lamb and a bit of rice.
to me i know plants dont have feelings and i know animals suffer.
i dont winge at vegatarians and vegatarians shouldent winge at me.
I dont think ive ever heard vegetarians complain about halal, oh wait that would be \'racist\'. btw halal is the way islamists eat meat by cutting the animals throat.
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Imagine for one moment that all of humanity suddenly stops eating meat and that all meat producers free all their animals. Since all those animals will be released into a world freed of any natural predators, they will breed and feed. They\'ll eat away all our crops. Some of them will get diseased and without anyone who\'ll kill the sick animals they only spread the diseases they have further.
Our entire ecosystem would simply fall apart and you\'d get scenarios like in India where cows or other animals cause hour long traffic jams because nobody is allowed to hurt them.
Morality is all nice and fun but it\'s not the way nature works. Nature is cruel but for good reasons. Cruelty to some means better living conditions to all others. Death is a part of life and it is needed to keep the balance in populations. Humans are this world\'s number one predator and if we stop feeding off animals or killing them, the balance is broken and bad things will happen. We\'ve destroyed the natural balance long ago and replaced it with an artificial one of our own. Our modern society may not be perfect and I don\'t agree with many practices, like those in the meat industries either but it does work. It\'s not so simple as to say \"That is wrong so we should end it!\" If you destroy one part of our ecosystem it will have an effect on all the others and if you\'re not careful they\'ll all come crumbling down, leaving us all much worse off than before.
I have no problem with killing and eating animals because it is something that needs to be done, it is nature\'s way and an essential part of the cycle of life.
By the way, there is no such thing as a perfect diet .. every diet has it\'s positive and negative sides. It\'s just a matter of how you look at it.
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1. 1. I hate hater (such as the poor, religion, race, old, and others)
2. I hate writing papers, and assess, and writing class
3. I hate war (Not going to war, but war it self. This is becaues there are sometimes good resons for going to war.)
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Originally posted by davo
I dont think ive ever heard vegetarians complain about halal, oh wait that would be \'racist\'. btw halal is the way islamists eat meat by cutting the animals throat.
Being vegetarian isn\'t racist. But your comment is just silly -- why would a vegetarian complain about an animal being killed in a way that lessens suffering?
Anyway, if you want to get into racial issues, just ask someone who is Hindu about how they feel about the way we treat cows.
Originally posted by Zan
Imagine for one moment that all of humanity suddenly stops eating meat and that all meat producers free all their animals.
Why would meat producers free their animals? That doesn\'t make any sense, so the rest of your post falls apart.
Oh, and in India cows are no longer allowed to be on roads because of a law the government passed there. A lot of people were upset, saying that the cows had the right to go where they wanted.
As far as being natural goes: Plastic is natural. Carbon monoxide is natural. Rape and war are natural. \"Natural\" is not equivalent to \"right\" or \"good\".
As far as the eco system goes: You said that if we didn\'t eat the animals, they\'d all run free. First off, I question how long cows and chickens would survive in the wild. Chickens would be eaten by predators, and we\'d see an explosion in fox, cayote, and predetorial bird populations. There would then be a devestating depopulation of those same species as they suddenly run out of their food source, then things would be wonky for a while but eventually ballance out. That\'s the way nature works -- there are all these mechanisms in place that keep thing going. The problem is that humanity is doing everything it can to mess with those mechanisms.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Being natural does not make something good. There are other examples of things which are natural but bad... but rape is the one I like to use because of the shock value.
Most people agree that hurting other humans is bad. That\'s why I\'m vegetarian (in part).
Your original statement was:
\"During a rape some jewellery is stolen, would you buy the jewellery? If not then with your point of view why buy leather? \"
In your original statement, you\'re buying the jewellery and not stealing it. Also, you\'re buying it from a rapist, not stealing it from a rape victim. Stop changing your story.
I apologise for misquoting myself but as you buy your wallet from a shop not the slaughterman the question still stands
And no. I\'ve never said that I found it acceptable. I find it irrelevant to the topic at hand.
If it is irrelevent then why do you use it as an analogy? or are we back to more hypocrisy? And if it is unacceptable then why do it?
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Quote:Originally posted by Induane
Don\'t tell me not to be stupid. I\'ve every right to be as stupid as I want, as do you, though you seem to use that right more often than I remembered you did. Besides, I wasn\'t really challenging you to prove anything. The question was rhetorical. The point was that unless you are a cow or a horse or a tree or a fern, you cannot really say what they expirence. That isn\'t saying that you can justify animal cruelty, only that we may not have the whole picture and stating some of these things as absolute \"facts\" is misleading.
Well said Induane. The irony is that this post was one of your \"smarter\" ones. So, by posting a smart post you are complying to zanzibars request.
OH no!!!!!! :D Never would have thought of that - partially because I\'ve a tendacy to miss irony, and partly because I\'m unconfortable declaring myself intelligent or smart... somehow it feels vain to me - as if I\'m putting myself above other people.
Why would meat producers free their animals? That doesn\'t make any sense, so the rest of your post falls apart.
Well, even if they didn\'t release them its not like they will be keeping them as pets. They WILL breed, and fences are not indestructible. I grew up on a farm/ranch, and believe me, even a 3 ft, hogwire with 3 strands of barbed wire set in hedge posts will only hold so long without maintence. We have some fences on the farm that are over 100 years old, but with the exception of a few posts none of that is origional. Even with a good secure fence, our cattle made a grand escape several times a year. :D Funny thing about cows is I can\'t tell if they are the most idiotic animals I\'ve ever encountered or really smart. I\'m still doing some detective work on that.
We have a hunting season here in Kansas, and I\"m sure in other places as well - specifically for deer. We\'ve long since killed off all of the major predators with our pastures and cropland which has all but driven them out. As a result the deer population explodes yearly, becoming dangerous for drivers, and in mating season, anyone who gets near one (and they will come right up to your house). Simply put - there are too many for the area we have. As a result it is up to humans to thin these herds. We\'d have to do something majorly majorly majorly scaled up if the cows were running loose too. Not that cows are even native to Kansas anyways...
/me wishes there were still Bison
What is natural is not necessarily moral
You use this arguement alot. It seems to be a major brick or even the keystone to your belief. The problem with it is that what is moral isn\'t necessarily what is necessary. Given that morals differer among social groups, societies in generral, religion, etc... we can show that moral is indeed a relative term. Personal perspective weighs in heavily. Necessity is not relative, though some things people define as \"necessities\" are obiously opinions. My car is not a necessity, not my computer not tv. I need food. Can\'t live without it.
or can we
TANGENT!
Hira Ratan Manek, aka Hirachand, has not eaten solid food in eight years. That is because he lives on sunlight. One day he just got sick of food and just quit eating it. He has been living on sunshine ever since.
Don\'t believe me? Well neither did NASA so they called him in to studying him, fully expecting to watch him starve to death.
He lived with them under observation for 130 days and they confirmed that all he did was drink water and \"eat\" sunlight.
What we have now is a new phenomenon. They even named the sh*t after him.
http://www.eightballmagazine.com/diatribes/volume02/007/138.htm
Maybe that is the real solution! Yay we can abandon eating plants AND animals and that way we can only hurt things with our other means of destroying habitats. Then we can find jobs for all the people who work in the food industry!
/tangent
....whats moral isn\'t necessarily whats necessary. Given the choice of starvation in a dire situation, people even go canabilistic. Is this wrong? Die or become a canibal?
......too long continued next post.....
*edit*
Is it immoral to take and take and take land and build our houses and amusement parks and stores and farms in order to maintain the growing human population? doing so causes animal suffering, starvation, extinction....Does something being a necessity superceed morality of individual groups?
that said, my next major point is that currently the meat industry is a necessity. It could possibly be phased out but the ammount of additional cropland we\'d need would be quite large. Who knows the environmental impact of this? Animal byproducts are also necessary when growing food. Many pesticides like 24D use animal products in them. Fertilizer is often made from animal byproducts, and 50% of animal waste in the US is collected and flung into fields to fertilize in that manner. See there is an important process that gets interrupted in agriculture:
Plants ----> Animals eat plants ---->Animals Poop fertile material, and also die, making fertile material. ----> plants grow well -->cycle repeats.
*I know its simplified but you get the point.
We need large amounts of animal byproducts at the very least to sustain crops. Crop rotation doesn\'t magically revitalize the soil. Even well rotated cropland begins to degrade and produce less yield unless it is properly treated with nitrogen(main source is animal products) and other vital nutrients. While it is true that some plants replenish soil of certain nutrients, it is not enough. The cycle was there for a reason, before we interrupted it by growing it for ourselves in a controlled fashion. As a result of this, the agriculture industry and the meat industry are currently codependant on each other. Unless that changes with major advances in farming technology, it is impossible to have one without the other.
[ When you edit a post, you can add more text. ]
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@ zanzibar
lol i was not refering to eating meat as being racist i was refering to people (vegetarians) never bring up the point with the islamic way of killing animals (halal).
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Originally posted by lanser
If it is irrelevent then why do you use it as an analogy? or are we back to more hypocrisy? And if it is unacceptable then why do it?
I\'m using it as an analogy for what you\'re saying. And I didn\'t say it was unacceptable, nor did I say it was acceptable. It\'s merely an action which leaves a significantly smaller footprint than eating meat throughout your life.
@Induane:
-What we do with the animals after we stop eating them is a seperate issue. Without all the antibiotics we pump into cattle, I\'m sure many of them would die anyway. At least the ones here. In brazil, they don\'t use antibiotics on the same level so the cows are the result of natural selection.
-I often say that what is natural is not necessarily moral because others often try to use the natural fallacy to justify a certain lifestyle.
-You can try to use the relative card or the nihilist card, but the fact of the matter is that everyone lives their life by a certain code.
-www.eightballmagazine.com doesn\'t seem like a reliable source of information.
-Population growth is not a necessity. There are good ways and bad ways to handle population growth.
-Additional land for crops would not be necessary. Cattle and other animals consume far more plant protein than is ever taken from their meats. It\'s over a six to one ratio of plant protein consumed to protein recovered in their meat. Therefore if anything, less land would be used for agriculture once the west lessened its meat dependency.
On fertilizer: In India, they keep cattle to produce fertilizer. However, they do not kill their animals for meat. Problem solved.
Originally posted by davo
@ zanzibar
lol i was not refering to eating meat as being racist i was refering to people (vegetarians) never bring up the point with the islamic way of killing animals (halal).
First of, Islam is a religion, not a race. Secondly, there\'s nothing wrong with choosing to kill an animal humanely as opposed to a way that might let it suffer. Your comment is silly, there is no contradiction. There is no delima.
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ahh bloody hell it has nothing to do with me, and i know its a religeon and not a race.
It was from a vegetarian point of view.
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http://www.solarhealing.com/about.htm
There is his home page.
their source was abcnews.com
it was all over the news here a while back. CNN, ABC, FOX...
And Zanzibar - we use the poop for fertilizer to be sure, as well as some of the bone marrow. 24D uses bone tissue as well. Many of the products used by the ag industry are only available from deceased cattle.
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Originally posted by Induane
http://www.solarhealing.com/about.htm
There is his home page.
their source was abcnews.com
it was all over the news here a while back. CNN, ABC, FOX...
And Zanzibar - we use the poop for fertilizer to be sure, as well as some of the bone marrow. 24D uses bone tissue as well. Many of the products used by the ag industry are only available from deceased cattle.
But you agree that fertilizer wouldn\'t be an issue?
I\'m assuming that using material from cows that die from old age (3-4 years in the case of some species of American cows which have been bred to be super cows) isn\'t an option. My guess is that there are more expensive substitutes for these by-products which are suitable for industrial use, but I don\'t know enough about the topic to say anything decisively. What I do know is that we have vegan marshmellows, so it seems that a lot is possible.
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(1) The goverment <~~~~ Of any kind
(2) Chuck Norris (He is the devil)
(3) The people that think Chuck Norris can act
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Originally posted by zorbels
(2) Chuck Norris (He is the devil)
(3) The people that think Chuck Norris can act
HERESY!
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Warning! Naughty words on this link. Pertains to Chuck Norris.
http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=590
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Originally posted by Kixie
2. Kiern. Well not really, it\'s just funny to poke and prod him.
Wait - so if you poke him, it\'s all fun and games. But if I poke him, it\'s grounds for you to flame me? Bit of a double standard, me thinks. Which brings me to item number 4 of 3...
4. Hypocrites.
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ants
anything smaller than pot plants
the free market economy
zanzibar
places north of glasgow
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Originally posted by Goldir
Warning! Naughty words on this link. Pertains to Chuck Norris.
http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=590
<3 <3 <3 <3 *Zorbels buys tee* <3 <3 <3 <3
Thanks for the link Goldir, you made my day. :D
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Drey loves me.
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Spammers... (damn cant tell if its one M or two :P)
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Spammers are bad. Trolls are worse.
I use livejournal. Someone else friended me, and we talk a lot out of shared interests and conflicting personalities. A number of \"creeps\" have targetted her and now post insults and random things on her livejournal using fake livejournal accounts created specifically to harrass others. They then moved on to all the people who post in her journal, including myself, and my other friends have now been \"infected\" as well. Block one fake account and three more pop up.
Individuals like that (trolls, bullies, stalkers) are pretty low to me.
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spammers add content... literally
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Drey just joined Planeshift
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Drey just joined Planeshift
I noticed that one too.