PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pestilence on February 25, 2006, 05:57:27 am
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Or perhaps interaction between people would be a good title or ingame economics or ingame stories.
The point is that I feel that the part that makes PS different from other games is being neglected by the dev team. Ofcourse PS has some great graphics and such but in thee/five years they wont amount to that much when PS might be finished and in the end thats not what keeps people coming back.
One of the great things about PS is it\'s community and it\'s focus on roleplaying inside the game. It\'s a plus that makes a certain group of people return for what they don\'t find in other games.
But although the development of the game itself is going forward the development of the community and of the stories within PS to make the world a whole have been neglected making this huge plus point less.
One can notice the avarage PS playing age decreasing. 6 months ago you would find players who have been around for over 18 months. Now finding people from before CB\'s release is pretty hard. Specially ingame.
To have a good RPcommunity ingame it needs to be encouraged. Player interaction through things like an economy should be encouraged. To have a story ingame that inspires people to use that as parts of their story is important aswell so those parts can be used to interact more easely in RP between players.
I really feel the dev team shouuld take on more storywriters and more roleplayers so to get more out of planeshifts strength as it seems to be truely needed now the game is progressing in mechanics.
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Has it gotten that bad? :S I just got reconnected with DSL and finished downloading the client...not 3.0.13, but the one before that...
Regardless, though, I definitely support this idea, although perhaps it should go into wish list? I like the idea of a storywriting or roleplaying environment, since the stated purpose of the game I read oh so long ago, after all, was to provide a true role playing game. In MB, that was pretty ever present...Maybe stronger incentives to roleplay should be added, as well as impediments to downright power gaming, like if you do something too much your gains will rapidly decrease after a point, or perhaps giving experience multipliers for roaming and other such things...At least it\'d discourage camping. ;) Of course, until I\'ve played the game with new mechanics, take everything I suggest with a grain of salt. After that, two grains of salt will probably be safer. Regardless...Bwahahaha, Typh is back. :)
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To say that the dev team is neglecting elements of RP is pretty awful, I think. The team will not take on writers just because there are writers available - there are certain things Talad is looking for, and certain things people may not be ready for or willing to do. Just like every single art contribution isn\'t going to be used, so it is with every other department.
People leave all the time - they discover that they have lives, that the game doesn\'t hold interest anymore because the people aren\'t as interesting, even though the game itself keeps evolving, etc. Yes it would be nice if more folks stayed around, but can you really say that their leaving is due to the devs not doing enough to encourage roleplay? I\'ve said time and time again that we need to have stable code before decorating things and making more available to play with. It\'s not fun when the server crashes - it\'s not fun when your character slips and dies - nor is it entirely fun when you can\'t do anything but fight and mine. So this is what they are trying to fix, among a plethora of other things.
How is RP not encouraged in-game? It\'s certainly been a while since the last GM-run event, but there are reasons for this - all events need to be approved before the GMs can act them out, and so brainstorming and putting things together and submitting is a bit more complicated. However, this is one of their top priorities. The economy has always been player driven (and a mess more often than not, due to - you guessed it - problems or bugs in code), and people are encouraged to create stories in-game. Talad has also wrote that having some sort of main PS storyline is absolutely impossible when the game itself is in such an early state.
I think the dev team is doing everything they can to make the game both fun and RP-oriented, and the players are helping. I personally don\'t see any reasons for a change.
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Well wishlist would be a suited place if the the dev team doesn\'t already state RP is a priority. I think this should be a place to now discus what should be done to realize this priority to actions.
The game may be beta but the community and the roleplaying definately isn\'t. This should be our focus.
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Well, instead of talking about modifications to the game, which is obviously beta, let\'s talk about roleplay. ;) Once the updater has the new version up, I\'m definitely up for some RP...though if it doesn\'t happen within a couple of hours it\'d have to wait til about this time tomorrow...
Still, it seems to me that we should shift the focus to making some rp happen instead of talking about how rp should be happening. So. Who\'s up for some loose RP starting in the vicinity of say, the tavern? All of those who want to get involved can just show up around a certain time and we\'ll start interacting and let it fly from there. Curiousness is welcome, and if you\'re bored with powergaming, drop on by, and all that. We can make some converts this way, ya know. ;)
But...remember...grain of salt until I\'ve got a feel for how the game works again, but it shouldn\'t be too hard unless I miss my mark.
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I\'m sorry Karyuu but you are really maintaining that the devteam has been giving their best efforts to encouraging Roleplaying?
I will admit that the progress on the mechanics has been a lot better of late compared to a few months after the CB release for sure, but you will have to admit that encouraging roleplaying hasn\'t had the same impulse rather the opisite.
And I think there are plenty of storywriters out there so that it\'s pretty unbelievable Talad could not find anyone who would not write something to his wishes.
And as for people leaving well ofcourse this will always happen, but the fact there are less people staying for a long time is concerning or it should be if you care about the game as more then the mechanics.
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Can you give me specifics of what you would want the team to do to further encourage roleplay in-game? A list of what you think would be nice, would be nice.
Yes there are plenty of stories in the RP board, but those are stories, and player stories. Just because someone may have written a lovely tale doesn\'t mean that they are automatically suitable for the Settings team - there is a lot more to it. And how many of those who posted stories actually applied? I believe I personally know of only two. The main point however, is that writing stories isn\'t enough to make someone acceptable, just like drawing swords isn\'t enough to make someone suitable for the art departments.
But - list? :>
*edit*
[...] but the fact there are less people staying for a long time is concerning or it should be if you care about the game as more then the mechanics.
I\'ve found that everyone who left had valid reasons for leaving, and this game lacking enough roleplay wasn\'t one of them. Do you personally know someone who said \"There just isn\'t enough for me to roleplay with, see you later\"?
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I\'ve found that everyone who left had valid reasons for leaving, and this game lacking enough roleplay wasn\'t one of them. Do you personally know someone who said \"There just isn\'t enough for me to roleplay with, see you later\"?
Are you kidding me? I remember several naming that as the reason for leaving and I remember even more who named that as one of the reasons of leaving although useally something RL was what forced them to decide how important PS really was.
hmm A list of tihings the dev team could do.
Well first of the devs should simply encourage player organized events. Things that happen ingame like Bods shop was one. To have GMs not as much organize events but add to things that happen through the players. make them feel apreciated for what they do.
I also feel that there should be more of a main thread in the story that still affects the world to this day that all roleplayers would have to respond to. This way making a history that is guided by the devstorywriters but also influenced by the players as they decide how to react.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
Are you kidding me? I remember several naming that as the reason for leaving and I remember even more who named that as one of the reasons of leaving although useally something RL was what forced them to decide how important PS really was.
Sadly I remember none of these. Strange.
Well first of the devs should simply encourage player organized events.
But encourage how?
Things that happen ingame like Bods shop was one.
Bodacher did that on his own - it was player initiative, and as far as I\'m aware neither devs nor GMs were involved in the slightest.
To have GMs not as much organize events but add to things that happen through the players. make them feel apreciated for what they do.
The GMs love to and will play around the players more - but they can\'t use their powers to help in player events (for example, spawn rewards) - if anyone wants to debate this, bring it up with Talad. He had the final word, and none of us had any power to continue the debate.
I also feel that there should be more of a main thread in the story that still affects the world to this day that all roleplayers would have to respond to.
How would they respond to it? A main story would require action - it would require plot, a conflict that needs taking care of, etc. This can\'t be done at the game\'s current stage, unless you have more specific suggestions. As always, the more specifics the better.
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Bodacher did that on his own - it was player initiative, and as far as I\'m aware neither devs nor GMs were involved in the slightest.
Yes it was an example of player driven events that should be encouraged. How? Well by doing things that involve it with other game elements like when Jose moved Harnquist and roleplayed him fighting with Bodacher about the new shop.
The GMs love to and will play around the players more - but they can\'t use their powers to help in player events (for example, spawn rewards) - if anyone wants to debate this, bring it up with Talad. He had the final word, and none of us had any power to continue the debate.
Perhaps but hardly an example then of roleplaying that is being encouraged more then and Talad is the head of the devteam so if his actions can\'t be held as an example for the direction the devteam seems to be going...
How would they respond to it? A main story would require action - it would require plot, a conflict that needs taking care of, etc. This can\'t be done at the game\'s current stage, unless you have more specific suggestions. As always, the more specifics the better.
Thats the fun about roleplaying. You don\'t need to have a complete game to do it, nor do you have to be able to do everything to roleplay you are doing them.
How would the devteam get feedback? Well by having people report what is happening. If it would truely have an affect there will be plenty of people willing to help I am sure.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
How? Well by doing things that involve it with other game elements like when Jose moved Harnquist and roleplayed him fighting with Bodacher about the new shop.
Four GMs out of nine have the ability to do that now - as others prove themselves ready to handle larger responsibilities with greater commands, so they shall be able to play like so as well. As the GM team grows in number, so will the RP events and little fun incidents. But right now there aren\'t enough resources for those GMs to test, help players, report, and provide spontaneous RP fun all at once.
The GMs love to and will play around the players more - but they can\'t use their powers to help in player events (for example, spawn rewards) - if anyone wants to debate this, bring it up with Talad. He had the final word, and none of us had any power to continue the debate.
Perhaps but hardly an example then of roleplaying that is being encouraged more then and Talad is the head of the devteam so if his actions can\'t be held as an example for the direction the devteam seems to be going...
I thought it was really strict in the beginning, but it slowly began to sink in. When events are approved, the dev team (and Talad especially) know what enters the player base (such as rare items given out as rewards). When such things are known, the chance for GM-to-player favoritism decreases, player demands that GMs accomodate their every story (an impossible thing to do, thus those who will get GM involvement may look as though they are favored) also decreases, and etc. It\'s not so crazy. Things may change over time as the GM team proves reliable and trustworthy, but I think this is an understandable beginning after the ruckus that the last GM team caused.
Thats the fun about roleplaying. You don\'t need to have a complete game to do it, nor do you have to be able to do everything to roleplay you are doing them.
No, we don\'t need a complete game for roleplaying :) Players are quite capable of doing the roleplay regardless of what is available. I still maintain that code improvements and implementation of features is a large aid.
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Well, isnt RP what you make out of it? Actually I am always encouraged to RP whenever someone is willing to RP.
Player organised events, are..., player organised events, and I can say they aren\'t a rarity, well not everyone might see that. And while a little intervention of GMs might be good and acceptable, major intervention would just result in GM driven events. The main point of player organised events is that they are organised by players.
Maybe it\'s me, but I simply fail to see your point.
Edit: From now on I will post in gray :3
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Furthermore, if you are convinced that we don\'t need a complete game to roleplay, why are you so insistent on specialincentive and technical back up for RP? All that would do is cause players who weren\'t getting those incentives for \'honest rp\' or such like to try to manipulate their way into getting them, or just complaining about life (err, planeshift) being unfair. Just...let that sink in.
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hmmm so your answer is becuase you are afraid someone might feel there is a favorite, that there won\'t be anything done at all. Yep that\'s an example of how you do encourage people alright.
And well ofcourse the example of Jose is now hinderd somewhat by practical problems but it is an example and as you said almost half the GMS can already do it and there are more ways then that a GM could involve player events without having to spawn things that benefit a player.
As for mechanics being implemented. Ofcourse it\'s true they are a great help, but in the end they should help make the RP more enjoyable so hardly worth the effort if you kill the RP in the proces.
Also many mechanics in my opinion would also be made better if the ones making it know how the world looks like and have a better idea of what would fit in the game instead of later making a story that seems to fit the mechanics.
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I believe the general argument was something along the lines of: IF they are really going to RP, then they will do it out of their own initiative, rather than simply for some reward. Otherwise, \'RPing\' turns into powergaming where people are scrambling to get fancy special rewards, and the line between RP events and events made up just to get something special is blurred. Of course, the NPC moving thing and similar features...I believe Karyuu stated that the number of GMs with that ability *is* growing, and it will happen more in the future, but planeshift -- all of it, the development and gm community, the game itself, and the storyline -- is a changing and growing thing, right now still in pretty early stages. So be patient. If you really want to help, go out and do some significant RP. On your own, without GM-controlled NPCs or fancy item spwns or whatever. And with that, I am going to bed. Have a nice night, Pestilence, Karyuu, and other person who posted whose name I can\'t recall.
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Night Typhorean!
Originally posted by Pestilence
hmmm so your answer is becuase you are afraid someone might feel there is a favorite, that there won\'t be anything done at all. Yep that\'s an example of how you do encourage people alright.
Those were just the first reasons that came to mind. Again, if you want more information, please talk to Talad. GMing is a very sensitive issue, as proven in the past. So far previous events have went well, but they were done by a separate RM team - not by people who also have to deal with bug reporting, OOC issues, player misbehavior, etc. It becomes a little more complicated.
And well ofcourse the example of Jose is now hinderd somewhat by practical problems but it is an example and as you said almost half the GMS can already do it and there are more ways then that a GM could involve player events without having to spawn things that benefit a player.
There is also a lack of time, as I said. The GM team is just not at a stage right now where spontaneous fun things can be provided at any moment. We\'re all really really really hoping for and working towards a change, but at this particular point in time, it\'s difficult. There are many things to juggle at once.
As for mechanics being implemented. Ofcourse it\'s true they are a great help, but in the end they should help make the RP more enjoyable so hardly worth the effort if you kill the RP in the proces.
What mechanics that have been implemented have killed RP?
Also many mechanics in my opinion would also be made better if the ones making it know how the world looks like and have a better idea of what would fit in the game instead of later making a story that seems to fit the mechanics.
This is what got me the most. Do you actually think that the dev team implements random things and then structures a story and an RP reason around them? I thought it was a given that things work the other way around.
*edited to add* The GM issue kinda snuck in here indirectly. I believe the main topic was the dev team\'s negligence of RP and RP-encouragement, which I strongly disagree with.
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Well lets do it the other way around then. Why don\'t you give me examples of what the dev-team has done over the last year. I think if you compare that with what is already been mentioned that you can hardly come to that conclusion.
As for the GMing I agree that is a different matter, but it is obviously also part of the problem that there are few GMs right now that are ofcourse busy right now with their primary jobs.
Turning to the others ;)
I do believe roleplaying IS a playeroriented event first. This is also why I do not prefer organized events by the GMs. They do add something but playerstated RPing is normally deeper and better in my opinion.
This however doesn\'t mean the devs shouldn\'t do anything in my opinion either. Specially to make it easy for the newcomers to interact in roleplaying there should be actions.
Also to simply give people the idea they are part of a greater group then just the few you might just be roleplaying with at that moment.
Also other games have already proven that if the devs do not do anything to encourage it it isn\'t going to happen. Sad but true.
Also I feel that the official history for example should be deeper. There should be more known about how the world came to be as it is right now like for example how Ylikum got this rather strange governing system if you look at things like travel and such. Just to make the world clearer to the ones living in it.
Also quests so far I feel have given hardly any insight into the Yliakum mind so to speak and I feel much more could be done this way to drag people into the world in a fun way.
Last why do I feel the \"playing-age\" of people is important is simply becuase many people need to learn how to roleplay. Ofcourse there are a few who already know how but the majjorirty doesn\'t know even if it was just becuase roleplaying in a chatbox is different then in RL with D&D. Learning takes time and so if people leave earlier it\'s simple cause and effect that the quality of the roleplaying will go down.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
Well lets do it the other way around then. Why don\'t you give me examples of what the dev-team has done over the last year. I think if you compare that with what is already been mentioned that you can hardly come to that conclusion.
No :> 1) I asked first, 2) you\'re the one making the argument. I already said (must this really be repeated so often?) that stable code and the beginnings of more features are very important and this is their primary area of concentration. You have yet to tell me how any of their work has \"killed\" roleplay.
As for the GMing I agree that is a different matter, but it is obviously also part of the problem that there are few GMs right now that are ofcourse busy right now with their primary jobs.
Yes it is a problem, but we\'re in such an early state! You can\'t expect everything to happen at once, or so quickly. Things like this take time, and no one is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
I do believe roleplaying IS a playeroriented event first. This is also why I do not prefer organized events by the GMs. They do add something but playerstated RPing is normally deeper and better in my opinion.
Agreed. So why the rest of the argument for even further dev and GM involvement?
Specially to make it easy for the newcomers to interact in roleplaying there should be actions.
Please share specifics when you\'re suggesting something. What actions? What would you specifically like to see?
Also other games have already proven that if the devs do not do anything to encourage it it isn\'t going to happen. Sad but true.
Are you saying that the team isn\'t encouraging RP at all? Are we playing the same game?
Also I feel that the official history for example should be deeper. There should be more known about how the world came to be as it is right now like for example how Ylikum got this rather strange governing system if you look at things like travel and such. Just to make the world clearer to the ones living in it.
Full agreement there, revealing more of the setting would be delicious.
Also quests so far I feel have given hardly any insight into the Yliakum mind so to speak and I feel much more could be done this way to drag people into the world in a fun way.
More quests and more in-depth quests have and will be added :)
Last why do I feel the \"playing-age\" of people is important is simply becuase many people need to learn how to roleplay. Ofcourse there are a few who already know how but the majjorirty doesn\'t know even if it was just becuase roleplaying in a chatbox is different then in RL with D&D. Learning takes time and so if people leave earlier it\'s simple cause and effect that the quality of the roleplaying will go down.
We can\'t control who leaves and who doesn\'t. As I said, I personally don\'t remember any long-staying member of the community giving up because the dev team hasn\'t been encouraging enough roleplay (maybe you can share a name or two?). I honestly believe that the team is working as hard as they can, but some things must be done first. Don\'t forget our version number.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
One of the great things about PS is it\'s community and it\'s focus on roleplaying inside the game. It\'s a plus that makes a certain group of people return for what they don\'t find in other games.
There are many different groups of people that keep coming back. It\'s not just one group of people where everybody knows everybody else.
Originally posted by Pestilence
One can notice the avarage PS playing age decreasing. 6 months ago you would find players who have been around for over 18 months. Now finding people from before CB\'s release is pretty hard. Specially ingame.
Mmmm..... fresh blooood.....
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No :> 1) I asked first, 2) you\'re the one making the argument. I already said (must this really be repeated so often?) that stable code and the beginnings of more features are very important and this is their primary area of concentration. You have yet to tell me how any of their work has \"killed\" roleplay.
You asked for a list of things I felt the devs should be doing. I gave example of what I felt the dev team could do that it isn\'t at the moment. You did not ask for a list of things that killed roleplaying and you are argumenting that I am tottally wrong so if I give a list at your request asking one in return becuase I feel your arguments are not vallid should be normal. I also never said the dev team WAS killing RP I was saying that with neglect you risk doing this. I think the neglect part has already been proven and so I asked a list in return.
Also a question. Why if you don\'t want dev bashing threads are you trying to make me do this?
We can\'t control who leaves and who doesn\'t. As I said, I personally don\'t remember any long-staying member of the community giving up because the dev team hasn\'t been encouraging enough roleplay (maybe you can share a name or two?). I honestly believe that the team is working as hard as they can, but some things must be done first. Don\'t forget our version number.
I\'m trying to have an argument that doesn\'t play on the man. But you know very well there have been people. you are one of the people who reads almost anything in the forums so to pretend there has been not even one is just funny if it wasn\'t so sad.
Please share specifics when you\'re suggesting something. What actions? What would you specifically like to see?
This asking for details everytime while giving none in return seems to become a one way street but fine an example again then.
How I see the devs via GMs or spinners is making the larger events like there have been a few, but also events specificly targeting the new player. exploration of the world events. It shouldn\'t be to hard to get the new players to participate and I am sure you can find people who like helping new players that aren\'t GMs so you wouldn\'t have to do it on your own either.
I honestly believe that the team is working as hard as they can, but some things must be done first. Don\'t forget our version number.
Seems like a valid point but again thats a version number to how far the mechanics are. The fact is that the story is behind atm while that should be the part already ahead of the mechanics becuase so much can already been done without all the machinics in place.
Like writing in depth quests or writing a tuely good hostory of places and races.
It would also make more of the fanart appropriate for use as the ones who read everything will have to make less asumptions that may turn out differently in Yliakum.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
I gave example of what I felt the dev team could do that it isn\'t at the moment.
Unless I missed something (apologies), all of your examples involved GMs and not the dev team. You said in a previous post:
As for mechanics being implemented. Ofcourse it\'s true they are a great help, but in the end they should help make the RP more enjoyable so hardly worth the effort if you kill the RP in the proces.
Thus insinuating that something the dev team has implemented actually killed RP. I would like to know what you are referring to.
You did not ask for a list of things that killed roleplaying and you are argumenting that I am tottally wrong so if I give a list at your request asking one in return becuase I feel your arguments are not vallid should be normal.
Why don\'t you give me examples of what the dev-team has done over the last year.
I can\'t seriously make that list, I hope you realize. I suppose taking lists of the updates from the main page would work, but that\'s really incomplete. They\'ve done a ton of things.
I think the neglect part has already been proven and so I asked a list in return.
I don\'t think it\'s been proven. I agree that much hasn\'t been done in terms of events, but I also explained many reasons for this.
Why if you don\'t want dev bashing threads are you trying to make me do this?
I am trying to make you bash the devs? Don\'t misunderstand the argument or my position. I feel like you\'re pushing for things the team (both dev and GM) aren\'t ready for yet, so I\'m both trying to explain this and try to find out what you\'re arguing for, exactly.
But you know very well there have been people. you are one of the people who reads almost anything in the forums so to pretend there has been not even one is just funny if it wasn\'t so sad.
I\'m not pretending anything, thanks. I honestly can\'t remember, so excuse me for my evidently faulty memory. So now instead of making comments like these, maybe you can actually give me a few names of old members that left because the dev team hasn\'t been encouraging RP enough.
How I see the devs via GMs or spinners is making the larger events like there have been a few, but also events specificly targeting the new player.
Pestilence, GMs are not part of the dev team. If you\'re talking about GM interaction with players, then please leave the dev team out of it unless you\'re making some direct point. Large events are not an easy thing to set up, and many of them have smaller steps leading up to the climax - all events are meant to target new players - invite them into the world, show what roleplay is and how much fun it can be, get them to make friends with others, etc.
It shouldn\'t be to hard to get the new players to participate and I am sure you can find people who like helping new players that aren\'t GMs so you wouldn\'t have to do it on your own either.
Players also help newcomers all the time. What is your point? Honestly :/
Like writing in depth quests or writing a tuely good hostory of places and races.
As I said, in-depth quests will be made available. Just not today, and not tomorrow. These things take time. Is your entire argument that we aren\'t doing things \"fast enough\"?
It would also make more of the fanart appropriate for use as the ones who read everything will have to make less asumptions that may turn out differently in Yliakum.
Appropriate for use in what?
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I\'ve said this before, but what I\'ve learned about this game is that it is what you make it to be.
The devs can supply a framework and medium, but what happens with it is ultimately up to the individual player.
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Unless I missed something (apologies), all of your examples involved GMs and not the dev team. You said in a previous post:
hmm so the quests and the history will also be written by the GMs? The devs chose to interact with the players using GMs. The GMs however don\'t really decide what their job is. Policy of the GMs is decided by the dev team as Talad made pretty clear with his new rules. So how can you then say it\'s not an example of actions made by the devteam?
I can\'t seriously make that list, I hope you realize. I suppose taking lists of the updates from the main page would work, but that\'s really incomplete. They\'ve done a ton of things.
Well I would say it\'s pretty impossible to make becuase it would be so smal using your own standardsl. GMs you say yourself shouldn\'t be counted and mechanics only proofs they are making a game, but plenty of games build nothing to do with RP so what does this proof to encouraging RP?
So this leaves out updates seeing that is only mechanics and it leaves out GM and Spinner events becuase thats not the devteam according to you and shouldn\'t be counted. That leaves.... wait the history and quests that I already mentioned I felt was lagging behind, how funny :P
I am trying to make you bash the devs? Don\'t misunderstand the argument or my position. I feel like you\'re pushing for things the team (both dev and GM) aren\'t ready for yet, so I\'m both trying to explain this and try to find out what you\'re arguing for, exactly.
And how is it that the dev team would not be ready for writing deeper stories? You don\'t need more mechanics to post more text on a website. You don\'t need more mechanics to add better text to the quests. You don\'t need more mechnics to look at how races and places came to be where they are before making them.
You might need more and perhaps better writers, but I don\'t believe not a single good writer has offered their services in the last year, nor do I believe that even if it would be so, that it would be that hard to find one just by looking in the fanart section and directing that person a bit on what you want.
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Okay, pardon me for being blunt, and I know I\'m not forced to read this or anything, but...man. It was never stated that game mechanics didn\'t help RP, but rather that RP can exist without said game mechanics, and that the devs were doing what they could with mechanics.
Karyuu is trying to figure out what it is you want, being more patient than I certainly would be in her shoes, and you are arguing, arguing, arguing, without ever once stating what you want other than more back story. Which has nothing to do with the lack of good game mechanics you were originally arguing against, and it has already been stated: the game mechanics aren\'t far enough along to implement what backstory there already was in game; however, it is being worked on. The crafting system is near completion in this last update, according to the main page, which will hopefully make the economy less of a jumble...just as an example. I\'d suggest you quick ranting and raving about how horrible it all is, and, if you really want some good backstory and RP, ask the question \'What does Talad want done as far as backstory and such, then?\' instead of saying \'The GMs don\'t make enough events and the dev\'s game mechanics ruin RP\'. Quit complaining and start doing. Once you do something, I will have a lot more respect for your...suggestions and so, I\'m sure, will the dev team and the GMs and everyone whose attention you\'re trying to grab.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
hmm so the quests and the history will also be written by the GMs?
Some NPC quests may be written by GMs. Writing the history is still a dev task, specifically under Talad\'s direction, so I\'m going to let this subtopic go now, as I have no more to do with it. Yes it would be nice if more info was available to players. No I don\'t think that it\'s an enormous tragedy if we don\'t know more at this current stage.
So here is what you want: quests, history. Is that all?
And how is it that the dev team would not be ready for writing deeper stories? You don\'t need more mechanics to post more text on a website. You don\'t need more mechanics to add better text to the quests. You don\'t need more mechnics to look at how races and places came to be where they are before making them.
So this is a lot less serious than I originally thought. The quests (am I repeating myself?) are going to be added and made more intensive. Guess what game mechanics have been added to this latest release to help with that?
*Multi-part and multi-path quests
*Many quest system improvements
*NPC dialogue now uses Wordnet, which will allow for more realistic communication
You might need more and perhaps better writers, but I don\'t believe not a single good writer has offered their services in the last year, nor do I believe that even if it would be so, that it would be that hard to find one just by looking in the fanart section and directing that person a bit on what you want.
Talad isn\'t going to search for people. If people want to apply, they should apply, and he\'ll judge them from then on. I said already that I think I know of only two people who have applied, personally. I don\'t know of any more. If you find that hard to believe, make a thread asking who of those that wrote stories in the RP section applied to the Settings team.
So I guess I really have nothing else to discuss - I\'ve already explained about quests, and I agree with you about more availability of the story and history, which this whole argument now seems to be summarized to.
But you still haven\'t provided any names of old community members that left the game because the devs haven\'t been encouraging enough RP. Why did you skip this point?
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Talad isn\'t going to search for people. If people want to apply, they should apply, and he\'ll judge them from then on. I said already that I think I know of only two people who have applied, personally. I don\'t know of any more. If you find that hard to believe, make a thread asking who of those that wrote stories in the RP section applied to the Settings team.
which actually brings up a point. the help us page has little contact info for that. and i can\'t focus enough in irc to bug people, (work related).
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*runs off to look* :3
Setting Department: BACKGROUND/SETTING Member (We have open positions!)
Will create background stories, quests, legends, NPCs and anything related to the setting of PlaneShift.
Skills:
* Dungeon Master of pen and paper RPGs for 2+ years.
* Bent for medieval setting.
To apply, please send this information (any email with missing information will be rejected):
- Full Name, Email, Age, City, State, Country
- Previous experiences on RPGs. Which pen and paper RPG games you played. If you have been DM and for how much time. Which RPG computer games you played.
- Send a writing made by you, or an adventure made by you for pen and paper RPG, or some short and special quest ideas.
Do you mean that there isn\'t enough information on the position, or how to go about submitting an application?
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submitting... sorry should have been clearer. the position reqs themselves are fairly clear.
mostly it is the destination e-mail address that is lacking.
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Ah, alright. I see. Hm.. At the very end of that page:
If you want to help us, please review what we are asking and send us your material (http://mailto:info@planeshift.it), resume, detailed info on your skills as explained above.
That?
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/me shrugs.
i was looking for something more specific. mostly because the other teams have it. but if that\'s what is, i\'ll run with it.
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I think the Engine dep is really the only one that has more info, or whose applications usually contact Vengeance. Sorry if I\'m misunderstanding something :>
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Typh don\'t say things you don\'t know anything about. I applied as GM and as storywriter.
Storywriter I didn\'t hit all the requirements so wasn\'t to surprised I didn\'t get an answer and GM submitions have been suspended for now.
So how exactly am I supposed to help now if I am not allowed Typh? As Karyuu already pointed out stuff in the artsection isn\'t used ingame so would be kinda pointless to write what I feel would improve the story there.
As for my posts I see them as defending the opinion that I stated in my first post. Karyuu keeps posting she disagrees and keeps asking for explanations and such. If you feel I then shouldn\'t answer I am sorry but that\'s not how it works. Atleast not for me.
As for the examples about history and quests. They are what they are. Easy to point at examples where you can easely discus about without it being to much about taste.
Just becuase I don\'t feel like bashing the devs with every little detail and to show some respect by keeping this a general course discusion doesn\'t mean I couldn\'t name a lot of little things and can\'t quote several devs on statements they made that proof they aren\'t pro-RP.
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There are some discussions in which generalities and ambiguities provide just enough room for people to engage in tasteful conversation. There are some discussions in which generalities and ambiguities hinder the process.
This is the latter.
Pestilence, name one person. At least one, please. Seriously.
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You don\'t have to be a gm or a storywriter to contribute to the roleplay environment of the game, you just have to roleplay. Hell, go in the middle of town and make a scene about losing your favorite mug, and oh could somebody pleaaaase help! if need be...Except pick something else, I\'m gonna do that. >.> Anyway, I didn\'t mean to come off so...strongly...but I was getting annoyed with the serious negativity of your post. It still sounds like it\'s coming down to you wanting other people to make the game more RPish for you rather than doing it yourself.
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After reading through this thread, I have to say this is starting to sound a bit like a graphical MUD...although, a bit more intricate due to quests and whatnot. And as a newcomer I probably shouldn\'t jump into this can of worms...but....
I agree that roleplay, for the most part, falls to the players themselves. Sure, GMs can interact, perhaps stir things up a bit, and I\'m sure a fair number of us have played tabletops. But GMs as far as being involved in player RP, should be nothing more than a guiding hand. A HAND TO CRUSH THE INFIDELS! *smirk* Nah, truthfully, GMs could contribute a lot to various stories, or perhaps occasionally help player-RP out when they\'re not on-call and constantly moderating.
The mud I currently play on (well, i\'ve been kinda inactive *cough*) has always had RP problems. Too many people go about leveling, and trying to get to be the highest title/shineyletter/rank/whatnot in front of their names heh. But a few of the guilds are pretty RP intensive, but that\'s one of the problems, only a few of the guilds do a lot of RP. And there\'s not much action taking place -between- the guilds. Except for a few different series that seem to occur between the same people. For the record, I play on a Wheel of Time based mud.
Again, in my opinion, the real RP should fall to the players interacting with each other. God knows the lengths i\'ve gone to getting people/subguilds interacting with each other in the guild. We always had a bad ratio of our military interacting with Aes Sedai, but finally after much deliberation, we started getting some interaction going. Things have been soooo much better since.
But that\'s kinda off topic, and on that score, i\'ll digress.
As I said before, it\'s always been my opinion that the majority of RP in a given system, be it tabletop, mud, or whatever, should fall to the players. The GMs should merely direct the background and story based on character actions. (I always lead my sessions off the cuff, so to speak) and not try to influence the player so much unless it is directly related to the story itself. And sure, some smaller-scale RP doesn\'t even require the presence of a GM.
From what I\'ve seen and read so far, it seems to me that dev is really working their butts off trying to get this game to evolve, and become more user-friendly. I\'m sure more stuff will come in later that will aid in RP, but I can\'t think that dev has in any way (or would in any way) hinder roleplay.
I mean, maybe I have this wrong, but the way I see it, devs are basically the equivalent of Immortal/Implementor on a mud. They\'re the dudes who work behind the scenes, constantly updating game mechanics, and adding/subtracting stuff. They try to create a world that is a help in generating roleplay. The GMs are basically the moderators, keeping order OOC-ly, and occasionally helping out in events or maybe even in helping with a player-driven plot. The players are the core of the roleplay community. The guilds, and the players are the people who make things happen. Like in muds, i\'m sure there\'s intra-guild roleplay, and inter-guild roleplay, be it conflict, or completing certain tasks, or just having a good banter at the pub.
Maybe i\'ve gone and gotten myself confused reading through this thread, and the overall purpose, and i\'m sure game mechanics might help, but I know plenty of RP that has taken place with nothing but text and emotes *grin*
For the record I tended to roleplay more on the forums than in-game on that mud. But occasionally I would partake in live-RP if it was requested or needed. Most of it was RP to gain rank or train newcomers in the guild though.
Rule 1 for roleplay: Get in-character *cackle*
For the sake of fan-fiction, mebbe i\'ll write a backstory of how Vaylos came to exist in the world of Planeshift. Er...the world\'s actual name escapes me at the moment *scuffle* I\'ve created this character on a number of different games, mostly because his backstory is easily adapted to suit the different environments. Expect to see his name around -alot- since he will probably be my main character hehe.
Anydangway, I tend to be a bit concerned with roleplay, which is why I dove headfirst into this thread. Sometimes it\'s hard to find good roleplayers these days. ;) And a lot of the people here seem to have their heads on straight, which is what attracted me to this community.
I\'ve been yammering on long enough I think. Again, I may not have gotten the entire jist of the thread, but my opinions have been stated. I sincerely hope I cause no offence in my post. And on a side note, when I refer to GM I don\'t necessarily mean to indicate the title in reference to this particular game, but in general as per the tabletop reference.
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Hmm, I dont want to play dumb ass. But you, pestilence, currently appear to me as a rat in the corner. Trying desperately to defend a point that already has been assaulted.
Well let me give a statement about the intriguing \"Story modelled after content\" or \"Not enough Setting\" theories at first. There already is a tremendous ammount of Information avaible. Of the most different kinds. If you would actually take your time to read the books in the library and interact with NPCs other than saying \"I want quest\" and clicking the attack button, a lot of things would be clear, there is so intriguing information avaible from the NPCs. This information ranges from details about geography (So where is east actually?) to information about where good mining spots are, or whatever how the dsars of Ojaveda are called. I have to agree that the dialogue system can be awkyard at times (which actually has been improved by the recent update), but it is under developement. A good tip, try ask your way around with NPCs, they actually tell a lot of things. Ever had a talk with the death guardian?
Now, let me look at the whole GM|RM|spinner topic. Contrary to common believe, GMs do have a real life. Further they are spammed with, \"Ohhh that meanie said that\" and \"XYZ stole my kill with a spell\" petitions. And GMed events always need alot preparation time, and a lot of invisible helping hands. So hmm let\'s go on a little journey. Let\'s look at a GM run quest only from the technical side. At first, there needs to be a basic plot, then that plot has to be aknowledged, after that the first real rush breaks loose. Spawning items, nameing them, preparing them (by makeing them non-pickup for instance) But the real work has yet to be done, bringing the players through the event. Creatures and characters have to be impersonated, sometimes it is mandatory that a invisible RM looks after the players, item must be triggered (makeing them pick ups for instance), the players have to be kept interessted, short a lot things have to be done. A GMed quest is not just something like your \"1 Year Guild Anniversary party\".
Well after this I\'d like towards the \"anti RP content\". Let me take a look at it. I cannot see how beginning with Character customisation is \"Anti-RP\", actually I think that haveing the possibility to make your character look different then others during chargen is a great step towards full Character Customisation, a step on a long road for sure, but as necesarry as any following one. Oh yeah not to forget familiars and pets, the implementation of groffels opened up a whole lot of new possibilities for RP, while I personally would love to see more variety with pets, I rest assured that sooner or later I will be able to have a gobble as travelling companion.
Well player initiatives are a great thing, yes. But they are player initiatives, GM involvement is nice in them, but by all means not necessary. It is sad but the, quite small, GM team is stressed with a number of time consuming tasks, which prevents them from regulary inteferring with player run RP, and these duties are important. The focus in player initiatives should be other players. And even if it might seem like it, player run events are less limited than it looks like. They might need a longer preparation time, but in the end the only limit is your imagintation and organisation, and the only prerequisite is a dedicated group of players.
The only real critic about Roleplaying in Planeshift I have to bring is not directed at the Developers but at the players. All to often people are not able to distinguish between RP and real life. (I am not talking about IC and OOC) I have seen people get mad in real live because of totally in character events, which may have angered their character, but that had nothing to do with their real self. I find this to be a great hindrace, especially for people like me, who tend to have characters with shady intentions.
Last but not least, I want to bring up the old \"It is still pre-alpha argument\". First there is the need for a stable foundation, code wise, before the devs can start to flesh out the world. The sheer ammount of content, background wise as well as technically, is intriguing for a game in this stage of developement. Planeshift in it\'s pre-alpha stage already is a good foundation for RP of every kind. Be happy with what you have.
I would like to thank my former mentor in ranting, the all-ranty Phinehas.
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@Vaylos
bit digressing indeed but liked reading it nonetheless. I tottally agree with you on that players should be the ones who roleplay. Who are the ones who take the initiative and the ones that make their own story.
I however have played many muds aswell and as like with the Wheel of Time most of them aren\'t really RP oriented only small groups if any really partaking in this.
I really believe that although RP will probably be there forever in some form that to be a true part of the game it needs help from the \"powers that be\".
I hope I am not alone in this feeling eventhough I seem to be a minority at the moment.
@Cyl
The difference between roleplaying and RL is important, perhaps you should act less like those shady characters then to have people believe it\'s just RP.
I don\'t know what I did to you to deserve to be called a rat, but I asure you that it makes you little friends.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
I don\'t know what I did to you to deserve to be called a rat, but I asure you that it makes you little friends.
\"Rat in the corner\" is a saying, nothing else. Somebody who is attacked and then does everything to attack back.
\"If you corner a rat, it will go for your throat\"
I don\'t think it was personal ;)
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Pestilence, you aren\'t alone in thinking the development team can and should support RP, you\'re just alone in thinking they\'re doing a bad job. They have a HUGE task before them, and if you ask me, they\'re doing pretty damn good. But things take time, that\'s the way it works. So...Start RPing. Yeah, it\'d be easier to net people in with GM or dev support. But right now they\'re just barely getting the foundations laid, forget the furniture. No point in a warm bed without a roof over your head. So how about we shift this topic to actually making some RP happen with what we\'ve got rather than chew each other out? Cease-fire? ;)
EDIT/Note without bumping the thread: I use the term \'chewing someone out\' liberally in this instance. ;) It\'s just what needed to be said to get the idea across.
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*grins* Don\'t believe chewed you out but seeing I am so in the minority it might be a good idea to rest this topic.
Cease-fire it is :)
You can close the thread Karyuu. ;)
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An interesting article by one of the Lord of the Rings Online developers on Role-Playing, called \"RP vs. G\":
RP vs. G (http://lotro.turbine.com/?page_id=96)
A quote from the article:
\"Should a game attempt to cater to role-players via dedicated game rules or systems? I am of the opinion that games should not. For one thing, any game distinction between \"role-players\" and \"typical players\" is often a magnet for griefers. RP chat channels, visual indicators of RP or Non-RP players, RP \"ranking\" systems, and RP banning policies all introduce more problems than they solve for RPers, for they are all accessible to people who like to disrupt them. Even RP servers generally fulfill their roles with mixed success: many players join them solely to interfere with the serious role-players, or often simply for network latency or server population reasons.
...\"Sandbox\" games, where the world and systems are just plunked down and players are supposed to construct their own drama, have been shown to be difficult scenes for players to construct compelling stories in.\"
8)
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Bnm85: I agree with that arcticle, it is all true. Hopefully PS is developed along this idea, but maybe it is only because it is developed slow that i sometimes doubt.
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Ask thyself, which would you rather hear as you walk down a street in Hydlaa:
\"Hello good sir.\"
\"Why hello to you too.\"
\"\'Tis a nice day, isn\'t it\"
\"\'Tis indeed.\"
or
\"I pwn U all n00bs!!!1!1!1!111!!!one!!!\"
\"U R all teh suxx0rz!!\"
LrdKiller hits Rogue for 12.56 damage!
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People are leaving because planeshift kind going no where. It?s been 1 year since iv posted on these forums and they have pretty much done NOTHING. I mean for the amount of time it?s been.
The only reason I?m still hanging around is because of the role playing witch most online world games don\'t have.
One thing I REALLY does not like about planeshift is the graphics! It seems to need a lot of the latest thing on your computer for planeshift to even work with out lagging like mad! But that?s what I don?t get?? planeshift graphics are not even that good?? Id even go as fare as saying they are BAD. Yet it lags like crazy!! And I?V played many other games that make planeshift graphics look 2D and never lagged at all?
And to every one on here saying this game is a BETA, it\'s NOT.... A BETA is when you a testing a FINSHED game.
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You my friend, are out of your mind.
*edited because I\'m unable to leave a post so \"unnice\"*
They\'ve done nothing for over a year? Where have you been? Ah, that\'s right - not here. To make such an honestly ridiculous claim takes a lot of nerve. Congratulations.
You don\'t need the latest of anything but the graphics card drivers - I have no idea where you come off saying that everything needs to be the best and you need to have the top system to even enter the game. If you think our minimum requirements are too much, compare them to something like GuildWars, or EQ, or WoW. No seriously - go do that right now. Are the requirements high enough to complain over?
Graphics are bad? Thanks for insulting the entire PlaneShift art team and contributors. Way to go - yay for constructive criticism.
Last but not least - go look up \"beta\" in a dictionary. I urge you.
Blimey.
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I have guild wars. and it runs fine.
And why are you getting so peed at me? Am i not aloud to have my own say? I\'m not flaming any one am i? Unlike an un named MoD here...............
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Of course you\'re allowed to have your own say :D And I\'m allowed to comment on it, because I see your say as ridiculous. Seriously, to say that the devs have done nothing for a year is just beyond words. Beyond words! Argh :x It\'s mindnumbing. I also have to question your definition of \"good\" if the graphics PlaneShift has are \"bad\". That also is beyond words.
Lag isn\'t caused by graphics a lot of the time. People generally seem to have even better experience with our latest release, so clearly we\'re moving in the right direction. .013 unfortunately also has a few memory leaks that are being solved, but that\'s what you get when you\'re playing a game in early alpha development. Most of them are related to sound - there have been threads with complaints on this before, and this temporary solution (disabling sound) was mentioned. Along with:
update graphics card drivers
set ps colour depth to 32
decrease adaptive distance.
and there\'s a few other, and there is a stickied trhead somewhere that has them. or simply search.
I don\'t think you were being very fair at all when you made that post, so of course I reacted in a very negative way. Surprised?
*edit*
Id even go as fare as saying they are BAD.
That doesn\'t show at all that you \"meant\" they aren\'t good enough to cause all that lag. To me it seemed very clear that you were talking about the graphics in general, so do be careful when you\'re posting - we only have words to go on.
*edit2* Sorry as well for being overly harsh :/
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All i ment by saying the Graphics are bad is they are not that good for the amount of lag i get.....
I think we better stop talking about this.. getting a bit off topic.... Any ways i\'m sorry.. i never ment any thing bad by what i said =-(
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The graphics aren\'t bad, all things considered. The correct thing to say would be that they aren\'t as good as they could be or as good as the same developers could\'ve made them.
As far as I understand it, they aren\'t currently trying to make them the best of the best but rather functional, simply because the engine is undergoing constant modifications and improvements, so making top-notch polished graphics, models etc. may mean that you have to redo them with every single new release.
It\'s understandable that people want the game to be completed faster and for everything to function properly but the nature of a free project is different from a commercial project, at least for a while.
You only mention a \"year\" but note that PlaneShift started in 2001 (according to webarchive), so it\'s been 5 years - a time, in which perhaps two commercial MMORPGs could\'ve been made.
What I really think PS should improve is the recruitment. It seems many are a bit scared of joining the team because supposedly \"Talad won\'t just accept any old thing, he expects top quality work\". And that you have to go through some sort of tests before you\'re on the team. Many are probably scared that they\'re not good enough. On top of that, they might also feel that they won\'t have enough time and might let the team down when they\'re most needed.
The recent addition of a contributor form might be a step in the right direction. But I believe the whole thing needs to be made much more friendly and attractive. For example, lay out the tests that need to be completed for every position on the website itself, so people aren\'t scared of the \"unknown\".
Just IMO. :)
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Not done anything over the past year? hmm I don\'t think thats fair even though I am not as pleased with what did happen as Karyuu seems to say she is.
As said it has been five years already so I think it\'s allowed to have some critism on things like art without it counting as flaming.
Personally I think art isn\'t a problem in PS although the last updates don\'t seem to have improved it, but I respect it when someone else thinks it can be done better. Ofcourse this is easely said as it can always be better.
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Yep, i know it\'s kinda late to jump up on this thread, but nevertheless i have to second Pestilence.
PS recent development doesn\'t seem to encourage or support RP, in my Opinion.
Here is what i think would be a big help to RP:
- Gestures
RPing in PS looks sometimes just like a Chat with a nice Background-Picture to me. Acting of the Characters is rare. Most of it is done in the Chat.
- simple Items
not only rare Items, given as rewards, but also very simple things like stones, knifes, flowers, spoons or forks....and all those simple things.
- individualism
the possibility to give your character something unique. The Hair-Color thing was a start, but seems to be abdoned or stuck at the current incomplete state. Visible armour may help, but things like indivudual clothing would be better IMHO.
...
there is much more, but one step after another....
The point is, that PS is famous for it\'s Community and Role Playing. I would think that this is something, the Creators could be extra proud of, since this is something that you can\'t just achive with fancy graphics or cool sounds and effects.
But for the same reason, this is a very sensitive thing, that can\'t be kept up with fancy graphics, cool sounds ...etc...
regards
backeroo
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backeroo, you raise a really good point, but keep in mind that such things require a lot of time from artists, both 2D and 3D. The programmers work on the game code all the time, and the artists are working on more content for you as well. But even with art there are priorities, and we only have so many people on the team - clearly we are doing something right and we\'re on the right track (visible armor \\o/), but it still feels as though this thread can be summarized with a desire for \"more\" and \"better.\" Those things are obvious - they are coming. We just can\'t do it immediately now.
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Hmmm.. maybe a mistunderstanding here.
Me, i would not summarize this thread with just \"more\" and \"better\", but with
\"more\" and \"better\" support for Role Play. Like you say, a Question of priorities.
And I for myself hope, the Priority of Planeshift is Role Play.
regards
backeroo
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I agree with Backeroo. I think he said it better then me even. ;)
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It\'s not as though making things for roleplay is itself one giant easily-understandable priority :) It too has splits and groups, with some things taking precedence. We\'ve already seen that the dev team is putting more time and effort into NPC communication and quests, vital for any RP environment. We\'ve also seen that further character customization is in the works. We also have new animations for some models.
What else is there, besides having a desire for more of these things?
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I\'m happy to hear(read) this, Karyuu. Thanks.
regards
backeroo