PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Netty on March 14, 2006, 01:44:12 am
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Not sure if this is a correct forum to post this but there doesn\'t seem to be a specific one dedicated to \"website feedback\", so I\'m posting it here. Feel free to move this thread to an appropriate forum, if this one isn\'t.
And by the way, I have done the \"search\" on similar topics, so what I\'m posting here is an addition to what\'s already been said, as well as a more recent take on the website situation.
To be frank, the current website isn\'t very well constructed or organized. The whole feeling is rather unprofessional, no offense.
The very first thing that jumps out is the useless flash intro sequence, which doesn\'t match the main website\'s colors at all. Any good web developer and designer knows that this is a no-no for a website with a lot of news updates. It really should go straight to the point or to the main_01.html page, which should be renamed to index.html. Leave the intros for the \"Media\" section.
Once it gets to the main site, it uses the unnecessary flash at the top with what is called a \"Mystery Meat Navigation\" with a link to the forums. If you\'re curious about \"Mystery Meat Navigation\", check Web Pages that Suck (http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/) site. It\'s a really horrible approach to a web design. There should be an easily accessible forum link on the front page but it should be clear and obvious rather than hidden inside a mystery meat nagivation.
Then comes the clumsy looking graphic of a \"dwarf\" that merges down into a dark brown color, which isn\'t even the main background color. The end result is that the dwarf\'s \"trail\" abruptly ends in an ugly \"block\" at the bottom of the page. At least correct the main page\'s background color to the same color that the dwarf\'s body merges into.
Moreover, once you go to other pages like \"Story\" and \"Overview\", the dwarf\'s \"trail\" is broken up. There is a visible gap in it. That looks extremely unattractive and unprofessional. Yes, I tested it in Firefox.
The formatting in \"Pictures\" section is again broken up. In fact, the screenshots that are seen on the main page and throughout the site look out of place and some of them don\'t load at all. Leave the screenshots for a \"Screenshot\" section or organize them better at least. They just look like they don\'t belong.
The \"Races\" section uses very pixelated and jaggy graphics for each race. It looks like the graphics were taken from the old \"PlaneShift MUD\" site. What we know, however, is that the high resolution, high quality drawings of each race exist. Take a look at the \"PlaneShift France\" site - the guy uses those high resolution drawings on his site. He most likely got in touch with Luca Pancallo to obtain them. So, the question is why are the old and ugly versions still used instead of the smooth and beautiful ones? In fact, on the French PS site, we can see the drawings for both genders for many races - something which isn\'t even on the main PS site. We can see male Diaboli, female Xacha, male Nolthrir and Dermorian, female Ynnwnn and so on. Something like that would\'ve been nice to have on the main site. At least the fans would have an idea of what some of the non-implemented races or genders are supposed to look like. It would help with fanart contribution as well. At the very least, it would look more professional.
Examining the old \"PlaneShift MUD\" site and the PlaneShift flash intro, we can see that there are a lot of good looking 3D renderings of the PlaneShift world. Anything from Yliakum panorama to the sewers. The rendering or drawing of Laanx tower has some sort of flying creatures circling it, and what looks like a moss hanging from it. Basically, a very cool effect. Why isn\'t that used on the main site somewhere? Why isn\'t it at least available in the \"3D Renders\" section? PlaneShift graphics quality can and will change, so using the in-game graphics for the site can end up looking outdated very quickly once the graphics are updated. However, utilizing an already untapped wealth of good looking renderings for the site design could\'ve given it quite a bit of longevity, no matter how many graphical and other revisions the game itself goes through. Just seems like a big waste to me.
Another problem is the account creation link is hidden within the \"Download\" section. Most other professional MMORPG sites have a clear link/button for \"Account Creation\" or \"Sign-up\". Once you get to the account creation page, it looks like a completely different website.
Doing a little research, I found that it looks like the old PlaneShift site, so clearly it has not been updated like the rest of the site. One of the responses by \"acraig\" has stated that it\'s because the registration page is on Fragnetics server, which is different from the main site. Apparently, the \"Laanx Fragnetics\", as well as this forum are being managed by \"Andew Craig\". My question is why can\'t Luca Pancallo and Andrew Craig negotiate an updated account registration page, so it follows the same theme as the main PlaneShift site? What is the main stumbling block in not being able to do so (no excuses please)? It wouldn\'t take long at all from a coding stand-point. According to \"waybackmachine.org\" archives, it hasn\'t been updated in at least a year.
Back to the main website issue... It\'s really unintuitive, a lot of things are burried so deep, they are nearly impossible to find. Some sections of text are still in Italian rather than English (old-site leftovers?). Some graphics look like they don\'t belong at all or to put it bluntly, look ugly.
For example, the latest news use a new graphic (news.jpg) as a bullet but as you go further back in the archives, the bullets are replaced by an ugly pink (which is still used in many other sections of the site), and the text is suddenly blue-green. I went all the way back in the news archives to find a very interesting \"hidden\" section about history of PlaneShift, as well as it\'s old MUD page. Something like that should really be linked in the \"About\" section somewhere. The current setup is like a mutated version of \"mystery meat nagivation\".
Also, the forum (again, managed by Andrew Craig, I believe) uses what looks like default forum colors. I found something called \"PlaneShift-test\" theme in its preferences but why it\'s not made a default theme seems to be a mystery. Again, it\'s extremely unprofessional looking. The whole thing reminds me so much of those default vBulletin colors that a lot of amateurish websites never edit, so it completely clashes with the main site. Quite honestly though, I absolutely hate the main website\'s \"theme colors\" - the dull, drab, and washed out feeling doesn\'t exactly convey \"fantasy\" very well. Too much uninteresting brown is overbearing. The yellow and greenish just makes it worse. Are these really the \"PlaneShift theme colors\"? Where are the beautiful blue and red, for example? Steel blue perhaps? Same goes for the overbearing brown+green PlaneShift GUI. Aren\'t there enough dull colors in PlaneShift already? How about something like a World of Warcraft or Guild Wars GUI instead? I really really question the color choices.
I\'m not a fan of the outdated lef-justified layout of the site either. Why not make it at least fixed-width centered, fluid, or even better - an elastic layout?
The main site\'s code doesn\'t even validate with W3C validator. It\'s clearly a non-standards compliant code, something which professional web developers and designers have been trying to battle for years. All the articles at w3c.org, all the letters to Microsoft to get their act straight at least with IE7, all the efforts by the creators of Firefox, still seem to fall on a lot of deaf ears. It\'s very clear that the site uses a Dreamweaver template. None of the WYSIWYG html editors ever put out a valid code. What they put out is something that professional web developers call a quirky code or \"html soup\". I believe Dreamweaver is attempting to improve its standards-compliant code in the latest version but it\'s still a far cry from the hand-coded correct and professional code.
It may be easy to learn a web design and development but it\'s not easy to master it.
You\'d think that Luca Pancallo would either learn a standards-compiant code or someone would contribute a better site by now but doing a search on this forum shows where the problem with that lies. I found a topic where a couple of guys wrote about sending in their XHTML 1.0 + CSS site proposals to Luca Pancallo but he turned them down and said he will not accept anything that isn\'t a \"Dreamweaver template\". Someone named \"Kiva\" stated that it\'s because Luca uses \"Dreamweaver\" (well, duh). But I think the reason he uses Dreamweaver is because he doesn\'t know how to write a standards-compliant code. He\'s paying for a basic website without a database, so there\'s no CMS (Content Management System). That is why he is dependant on Dreamweaver.
What\'s very contradicting to the other member reports though is the \"Web Designer\" section on the \"Recruitment Page\":
Please insert this information :
- Previous experiences on building web sites.
- Web languages you know (php, perl, asp, javascript, etc...)
- Web applications you use to build sites. Please tell us how many years of experience you have in those.
- Post references to sites made by you, or send a proposal to update the layout of our main page.
How can anyone send any more proposals when people have clearly reported that Luca doesn\'t want an XHTML 1.0 Stict + CSS standards-compliant code but rather a dreaded and ugly \"Dreamweaver template\"? On the other hand, the web designer position doesn\'t even state that it\'s open, so perhaps he wants to be a web designer all by himself.
Frankly, I\'m very disappointed that he supposedly expects top-notch work from other contributors but yet he insists on a horrible code and ugly and disfunctional website layout.
As a professional web developer myself (I work for a huge development company here in Canada), I can guarantee you that none of the previously posted exuses like \"c\'mon, it\'s not that hard to bookmark a this page or a forum\" will work. It DOES drive a lot of the new visitors away, it DOES make PlaneShift project very unattractive to professional developers who might\'ve otherwise applied for the team. And hiding behind the \"it\'s free\" veil excuse is really old and doesn\'t work. Crap is free too, pardon my saying.
I realize this post may sound very harsh but someone had to come out and speak out the truth for once. I\'ve been lurking around this forum quite a bit before I posted this and I notice that as soon as someone posts something negative about anything PlaneShift, they get a ton of so called \"regulars\" screaming their heads off and insulting that person.
Scream all you want but this needed to be said.
PS I don\'t care if you end up deleting this thread, if you find it too harsh. I said what I wanted to say and that\'s good enough for me.
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yep, all been mentioned before.
but hey, if you can do better. submitt your proposal. if it flies it flies.
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Very easy to say what is wrong a lot harder to make it right :)
I fully agree that we need a full time web developer team to work on the 3 sites that we have. So far nobody has stepped up to offer any concrete solutions.
Most of our time is spent on debugging and developing the game so the website has taken a backseat a lot of the time.
Every person that I\'ve talked to about redoing the website has never returned back with anything. Design a website is a very big job and one that we don\'t have the man-power to support very well at the moment. I am not a web developer but I have the required skill set to do it. But I simply don\'t have the time to dedicate to the website. I feel that any job would be half done as is apparent now.
You raise very good points but as steuben mentioned it\'s all been mentioned before. Until we can get a dedicated team that is willing to put in the work involved we will have to struggle with an inconsistant system.
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This thread makes me want to stop whatever I\'m doing and redesign the site myself :P Except I can\'t stop what I\'m doing.
But you look like you have some time... :)
Seriously though, everything you wrote makes sense - there\'s just a matter of finding someone willing to do this. No one on the PS team at the moment has any time to devote to the website besides basic updating, and I don\'t remember the last time (years?) when someone had a proposal to submit. We\'re just very very short on free hands to grab \"side-projects\". That doesn\'t mean that we are ignoring things we aren\'t currently working on.
*edit* Pfft, beating by a million people ;)
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I would like to help, but my sites are not the most stylish in the world, I believe web design you need to be good at art aswell to make it look very nice.
http://www.supertux.info <-my site
Not the best site in the world and needs alot of updating itself :\\.
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I think just to start with would be a simple layout. Like what sort of head/footer, table format, where to place menu items, etc. Colour schemes as well would be nice.
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My informal motto for the team development process is \"Imperfect and done is a lot better than perfect and not done.\" Your 2000 words of criticism notwithstanding, the reason the website isn\'t better is because no one on the team gives a crap about it. We are making an MMORPG, not a website.
It is arguable no one even cares enough to supervise someone else doing the work on it. :-)
I would ask you to try your hand and volunteer a fixed version, but a) I know you won\'t, and b) we probably wouldn\'t use it.
Sincerely,
- Venge
p.s. The web designer position on the site is to help develop web applications internal to the team, for server administration, etc. As usual, the public website statement there was an afterthought...
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We get plenty of blunt (mildly insulting) rants posted here from time to time, however this one is quite valid. We just need someone to do it. Feel free to step up to the plate. ;)
If you can actually fix these problems, and design us a good website, please do. Talk to Luca (Talad on IRC) and give him some samples and ideas. If you\'re willing to actually work on this (not bail, as has been mentioned is the pattern) and work with the rest of the team, I\'m sure you will be welcome. We\'re just very skeptical on the issue. (no offense...)
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Uhhh, I guess I could help. It\'s not really the layout. Its just that there is not enough information/content.
http://coldplayamerica.com <-- This is mine
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I just cant beleave this was his first post. A rip of the website. WOW is all I can say.
Aranis
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Like OH MY GOSH. The colours are *so* wrong. I mean, did you *see* her hair? I just *can\'t* believe what she did to it, I mean *who* does she think she is? And that dress? It is SO TOTALLY last week, I\'m pretty sure I saw it on sale in some sort of .. um, store thing.
As stated before, working on Planeshift (where both \"Luca Pancallo\" and \"Andrew Craig\" spend a lot of their time) is much more about designing and implementing a game (at least at this point) than running some kind of fashion show or interior decoration debate club. While we do take pride in our work, there are very practical considerations to take into account, one being that Talad might actually not *be* a professional full-time web developer, but for practical reasons is often the one who needs to modify webpages. Standard-compliant code is great, but things seem to render fine in IE and Safari alike, so immediately it becomes negligible on the priority list.
Using a default forum colour-scheme is \"amateurish\"? Guess what.. we\'re not getting paid for this! Doesn\'t that make us amateurs?
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Good point. Now, lets give a round of applause to the team.
Mentak claps
Oh come on, I can agree with the forum moderators (after talking to them in the IRC), and reading the post, If YOU have a problem with the page, then join the team and make it better. They can use help. Well, I can agree that there isn\'t much user friendly content (as Netty stated) the website isn\'t everything you know. What are they trying to promote, the site or the game? (good point arcraig and DaveG). Now, next week on nightline, we discuss the topic of Enki spawn... :3
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I\'m probably talking out my sphincter here, but here goes: You made a lot of criticism. According to the people that just commented it was mostly valid. Now my mommy (and my drill sergeant) both told me not to criticize unless I had a solution or was willing to do something about it. If every key you typed to write that criticism was instead used to polish up the code and make a new site (or to improve the old one), there would be no problem with the site because you would have just solved it. Feel free to tear me to pieces people. The pain lets me know I\'m alive.
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I think your post is rather valid and you raise some really good point.
It seems you are into the subject, why don\'t you try to make a conceptual draft proposal to be shown to the devs?
I think the most important thing is actually put words in an empirical result and if you have the skills, the time and the will, it would be really nice to have an usable, beautiful, updated website that is even easy to be maintained.
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Thorough analysis, however I disagree on some points.
- Color/theme are something you do not see on every other page. Five out of six pages on the net use various blue colours, which is really getting old.
- W3C compatibility is wishful thinking unless you have a plain text site. It\'s not that you cannot achieve compatibility, it\'s more that browsers cannot. To stay cross-browser compatible, in my experience you have to tweak and hack.
On the other hand, to all the voices that say \"submit a draft\" - who likes to spend time on something that is likely to get turned down anyway? You can\'t blame Netty for not submitting a draft with this quite extensive analysis.
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My hope is that it would not be turned down. But it is not me deciding, unfortunately ;)
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I have this feeling he\'s never going to check the thread again :P
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THat\'s just a pity. Well, bubbles in the air ;D
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It\'d be sad to post a very detailed rant, which was actually listened to and agreed upon by the dev team, and not follow up on it. Though, we get piles like this all the time, hence our skepticism. :( I hope he responds, but I\'m not holding my breath...
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Now we only need some good people to realise the points.. Please sign in here (http://laanx.fragnetics.com/nexus/newapplicant.php)! :))
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Well, yeah the website\'s not the best, but you learn to navigate it just fine and the looks don\'t really matter as long as it\'s still readable imo.
@Uyaem: no offence, but you can rather easily achieve W3C level \'A\' conformance with more than just text and still be browser independant
I could help, but am rather bogged down with school at the moment(one assignment of which being a W3C \'A\' website with tons of features...) :(
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Well I am surprised a bit about the dev team.
One moment they are saying how much time it takes to make a website and that noone can find enough time to do it and the other moment they are asking for someone else to just whip out a concept out like that.
Specially if Talad has already said he doesn\'t accept the way it would be coded if such a draft would be submitted.
You can hardly expect for someone to then put a lot of work into it unless atleast there is a promise to have a serious look at it and I don\'t have the feeling the devs who replied so far have done this.
The fear it may just be a rant may be justified, but don\'t say he cant critisize something if he isn\'t willing to do it when he says his workstyle isn\'t accepted and your obviously not willing to it yourself either.
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Originally posted by Pestilence
One moment they are saying how much time it takes to make a website and that noone can find enough time to do it and the other moment they are asking for someone else to just whip out a concept out like that.
Building the entire site and \"whipping out a concept\" are two entirely different things with vastly different difficulty levels. However, no one on the dev team has time - because a concept then needs to become a site, and that\'s where our lack of time kills it. This is precisely why we can\'t take care of it at the moment - is there anything really wrong with letting people know that and suggesting that anyone else try?
You can hardly expect for someone to then put a lot of work into it unless atleast there is a promise to have a serious look at it and I don\'t have the feeling the devs who replied so far have done this.
We\'re skeptic of anyone actually making a concept or proposal - because so far everyone criticised, but no one contributed. A concept doesn\'t have to be a lot of work - a Photoshop mock-up doesn\'t take too long to put together - but people are wishing for things and not working on it, which the others generally dislike. We\'ve replied why working on the website by the team is nearly impossible right now, and invited others to give it a try. If you think this wasn\'t posted \"nicely\" enough, well... Nitpicking ;)
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Well, I felt a bit inspired by this to make my own concept-thingy in a more minimal \"clean\" style. Not the norm for fantasy MMORPGs, but then PS isn\'t your normal fantasy MMORPG, is it? :P Not going to post it inline since that might stretch peoples browsers, but here\'s the link: http://josephoenix.ps-mc.com/psmain-redesign.png
Uses a similar color scheme to the current version.
I also tried a bluish version: http://josephoenix.ps-mc.com/psmain-bluedesign.png
I could make either of these into xhtml/css layouts but I want to know whether people think they\'re any good first ;]
One small caveat is that the server status box I showed in the brown design would not be possible at the moment, since for some bizarre reason the server does not support PHP (hence the forums and the recruit form being on separate servers :P).
Comments, criticisms, \"go-aways\"?
josePhoenix
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I like the blue one, and the info box on the first one is a nice idea. I would like to see something more than a plain blue background. Something that is subtle like a faint outline of the temple or something to give it some \'feel\'. Also I would like to see what sort of menus to have down the side. Pull downs or static?
Kudos for putting some ideas out there.
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I\'ll try some stuff with the bg. The reason I don\'t usually use graphical backgrounds is they can be a bit distracting, but a watermark shouldn\'t be a problem.
The menus are hiearchical (is that a word?) menus, like in the windows explorer or konqueror or finder of nautilus or-- eh. They\'re like the menus you\'d find in a file manager\'s \"tree view\".
josePhoenix
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Originally posted by Karyuu
You can hardly expect for someone to then put a lot of work into it unless atleast there is a promise to have a serious look at it and I don\'t have the feeling the devs who replied so far have done this.
We\'re skeptic of anyone actually making a concept or proposal - because so far everyone criticised, but no one contributed. A concept doesn\'t have to be a lot of work - a Photoshop mock-up doesn\'t take too long to put together - but people are wishing for things and not working on it, which the others generally dislike. We\'ve replied why working on the website by the team is nearly impossible right now, and invited others to give it a try. If you think this wasn\'t posted \"nicely\" enough, well... Nitpicking ;)
Ahh, heck, now you made me log in.
Looking for a job is one of the things I hate most, especially low reward jobs. The fact that so many have been ignored, is indeed motive to not apply. Yes, nit-pikky\'s rant is exactly what you describe, but it is more than a rant--it is a challenge--and has dev attention (obviously).
If it is true that the only program that will be accepted is Dreamweaver, so Luca can edit the site as neededI do not see why someone who uses Adobe would be able to join the team. I also do not see that there is \"a website team\" for one to join and just submit mock-ups to implement which the team can load into Dreamweaver.
There is nothing worse than joining a team that bails--throwing away the project--after you have done so much work (especially if you have carried the team).
I\'m may not be well worded (my eyes hurt) so don\'t be too nit-picky about what I\'ve said.
I hope the pro lurks back and dazzles us all.
Question: would the poops volunteering have access to a set of Planeshift art to put on their pages?
For Jose: They are basic and sweet. Yes, hierarchical is the word--if they spring a set of links in a hierarchy.
The brown one--well, dark brown on different browsers tend to look like ___. Turning it into wood, or rock (preferably game art wood and rock) it would look much better.
The blue one, much less gloomy, and ____ looking. Still just a plain background however--clouds, the crystal, perhaps something like that. The idea for the temple watermark is a good one, but in design terms--the colors crash (going by ingame color of temple, not refined art to temple which may be available).
I recommend highly that your pages are not all the same, use some variance. Oh, and also--the main page--the splash page--need to be catchy, vibrant, linked completely, and easily interactive. Brown is definitely not a good scheme for it--try some spell blasts.
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Originally posted by Gripen
Ahh, heck, now you made me log in.
Looking for a job is one of the things I hate most, especially low reward jobs. The fact that so many have been ignored, is indeed motive to not apply.
Heh, well, I\'ve been ignored lots of times when I put out requests for help for the website or people want to be hand held for everything which defeats the purpose of having somebody work on it :)
If it is true that the only program that will be accepted is Dreamweaver, so Luca can edit the site as neededI do not see why someone who uses Adobe would be able to join the team.
To me it sounds like a misunderstanding here. I am sure that we can work around something like that. I still edit php in vi so it\'s not a big deal.
There is nothing worse than joining a team that bails--throwing away the project--after you have done so much work (especially if you have carried the team).
Heh, that\'s the truth. We\'ve had several people that impress us at the start and then end up dropping off the face of the planet for whatever reason, leaving us with trying to cover the work they were supposed to be doing. But nature of the beast I guess.
Question: would the poops volunteering have access to a set of Planeshift art to put on their pages?
Depends on what sort of art work that is required.
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Originally posted by acraig
I still edit php in vi
/me flees in terror
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Hi, guys
I didn\'t think I would check back on the replies, as I thought it would be full of flames towards me. I decided to take a risk and read them, and even though there were a few flames, I\'m impressed that many have listened.
I won\'t make extensive comments on the \"this isn\'t a fashion show\" replies. The only thing I will say is that a professional web designer would probably be fired from their job, if they made a comment like that to their clients, after putting up clashing or uninteresting color themes or skins on a site. Is car design a fashion show? Does it have anything to do with a girl\'s hair? No. But there\'s a high demand for a good and slick design. I will leave it at that.
My main issue with the current website situation is exactly what\'s been mentioned by some replies in my defense - a new proposal would most likely be turned down because Luca has stated that he only wants to use a Dreamweaver template. It would seem like a waste of time to even try. Hence, my criticism, which he might use, if he wants to do all the work himself.
If we could get a clear reply that he would indeed seriously consider a proposal with valid HTML code, then it becomes a whole different story.
By the way, the blue design proposal made me laugh with its \"not mystery meat\". That was a nice touch. :D
One of the reasons I posted my extensive criticism thread is because someone on this forum has contacted me and asked me to post. That very person wanted to redesign a site but made some rather alarming discoveries about it most likely being turned down due to Dreamweaver requirement. I conducted my own \"investigation\" and eventually created a thread.
I don\'t know if I\'ll personally have the time to make a new site due to my work, considering that a new proposal may not even be an option. But I\'ll see what I can do. The person who contacted me would most likely be the one to design it but only if there\'s a clear answer that a professional new website would be accepted.
Having said that, I encourage those who have gotten inspired to keep on working on your own proposals. The best advice I can give you right now is to please get rid of all the graphics for now. Just completely remove the logo and any graphics from your sites. First, temporarily assign pure colors to a background and your tables and make a good and functional design. Give every table column, cell, row etc a reason to be where it is. Think of why you need each particular space on your site. Only when every feature has a clear purpose and makes sense, worry about the presentation. And please, keep all the presentation strictly in your CSS. That way, editing .html would be extremely easy for the news updates.
I also strongly recommend an elastic layout. To see what it is, please go here:
Fixed or fluid width? Elastic! (http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/fixed_or_fluid_width_elastic/)
And also please check this site\'s articles (you will see why, once you read them):
24 ways (http://24ways.org/)
One other thing. Does PlaneShift have a set theme of colors or is it pretty much \"anything goes\"? A recurring theme seems to be the \"Azure Sun\". Azure is usually a bluish color (not green or blue-green). So, perhaps going with a shade of blue isn\'t such a bad thing. It doesn\'t have to be an overused blue. Perhaps make the main background a very dark but very soft metallic blue. Or perhaps something like this: #202344. And work from there.
What is the main material for writing on in the PlaneShift universe? Is it an old scroll-like paper? Is it a stone? Perhaps an appropriate background could be used for news updates eventually.
Good luck. :)
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Again I think there was probably a misunderstanding about the Dreamweaver thing. Luca probably prefers it was Dreamweaver since it makes his life easier.
Give every table column, cell, row etc a reason to be where it is. Think of why you need each particular space on your site. Only when every feature has a clear purpose and makes sense, worry about the presentation. And please, keep all the presentation strictly in your CSS. That way, editing .html would be extremely easy for the news updates.
This is why we need somebody to help us develop it. :)
I\'ve been toying with different forum styles ( Development ) while waiting for my projects to build. Mostly playing with different colours of blue. I will try out the colour you suggested ( and any others you care to offer ).
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Well, I made a quick and dirty version for a forum of what I would personally like. Although the forum colors would totally depend on a website\'s color theme in the end. Here is a screenshot:
Forum colors (http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7289/forum4xg.jpg)
I didn\'t bother editing every little thing. For example, ignore the color of icons, as I did a quick invert to get white text instead of black.
Also, the regular topic color is a tiny shade down off white. Bolded white can get a bit hard on the eyes for some people. You can either try unbolding the font for regular topics and making it white or keep it bolded and make it slightly off-white.
Don\'t know if your forum software can even let you set it up that way.
Also, I\'d recommend getting rid of the top image, until a more elegant graphic is available. Personally, I think it looks out of place. But it\'s up to you.
Let me know what you think. Does it look overbearing or elegant and smooth? It\'s just a rough idea... I thought it would be a nice change to have a lighter text on a darker background.
By the way, one of the stickies has a double \"Important:\" in it for some reason. :)
UPDATE:
Just an idea of a more appropriate forum graphic with the colors I picked so far:
Forum Graphic (http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9682/forumgr1tj.jpg)
Maybe add \"PlaneShift\" to it. But definitely not in \"yellow\". :D
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I like that theme. However, I\'d prefer to have one that matches the colors in the crystal logo a bit more. A lighter blue. (not like the default forum, but more of a turquoise-ish, with maybe a static landscape background or something) I\'d also like to carry the crystal blue motif around, but maybe keep the forums a little lighter than the other sites. (I\'ve never liked very dark colors on forums; makes it harder to read)
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Pfft, I like our brown theme :/ Blue is too dull when dark. Cherppow provided some really nice forum color schemes a while back in this (http://planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=21771&boardid=10) thread, which all seem quite lovely.
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It\'s not \"blue\". It\'s a combination of blue, violet, gray, and a few other colors. It\'s meant to look smooth and cool.
Check your monitor color calibration, you may be using an incorrect one.
If by brown you mean \"PlaneShift-test\", now that\'s an awful and dull theme. But I guess there\'s always someone who might like it. *shrugs*
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My monitor is calibrated quite well :D Graphic design requires it. Many people like the \"PlaneShift-test\" theme and have it set to their default. It\'s not a tiny minority. Anyway, as opinions go, if we\'re going with cooler tones something brighter would work a lot better.
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Hmm, the only theme out of Cherpow\'s that seems decent is the olive motif (3) but the text looks too washed out. The rest have either too much violet and pink, too much brown or rusty brown, or just plain hard to read. For example, I don\'t know how anyone could stand reading text with theme (2).
Even Cherpow said:
Personally I\'m using the default one, mainly because it\'s default. But also because the brown one has some black font that\'s hard to read against dark background
And that\'s definitely a no-no. :)
EDIT: By the way, Karyuu, according to Color Schemer (http://www.colorschemer.com/) the colors I picked have a \"harmony relationship\". The website\'s brown one does not, so pffft I know what I\'m talking about. :P
UPDATE:
Ok, I tried to improve upon acraig\'s development theme and came up with this:
Theme (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6948/forum33wy.png)
I know it\'s not a dark text on light background but that\'s how acraig\'s theme was. I wanted to see what it\'ll turn out like. It seems to have all the colors in the logo and even matches the website\'s theme, especially when we occassionally see something other than the overbearing brown. But you still get your favorite brown. :/
What do you think? I\'m thinking the orange should be made a little more orangy like in my first theme.
Will play around some more later.
Alternative 1:
Alt 1 (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8967/forum3sw13ns.png)
Alternative 2:
Alt 2 (http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1695/forum3sw23ja.png)
Alt 2 uses a soft white for forum topics.
Alternative 3:
Alt 3 (http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5661/forum3pw6sx.png)
Alt 3 uses pure white for forum topics.
Now onto dark text on lighter bg.
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I have already expressed my opinion about the *actual* forum themes in other topics, still I will underline how important is that a scheme doesn\'t just look cool, but must be readable.
I am afraid the \"brown\" is the one that gives more trouble to achieve that functionality...
About the Netty\'s proposals. The first ones, even if really well polished, give me the sensation of a forum for a sci-fi game, if not something with setting in the space.
I think it is the combination of the colors, even though the PS one should achieve to be on the \"blue/light blue\" gamma.
Of the Alternatives: I think I like best the second one. They all 3 look already more \"PS style\", however I think that light orange over blue - even if readable - it is not exactly beautiful...
The upper image, I think, could be moved to the left as logo. It will be less intrusive. Anyway, I think it depends also from the setting of the software for the forum. I guess that are plenty of ones with a better generic layout than this.
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If you\'re using complementary orange/blue or yellow, it has to be balanced. That blue and brown and orange and yellow just don\'t work.. :> It seems more an attempt to combine two separate styles, but they don\'t merge well enough for that to be effective.
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I agree about the orange in the alternatives. I don\'t like it. I used the same one that acraig used to see how it turns out. Maybe I\'ll play around with it some more and replace the orange to something else.
It just seems like everyone wants something different. They want PS logo colors and yet those colors (as I already said in my first post) don\'t go well together. They also want dark text on a light background. Acraig has his own idea with \"development\" test, and so on.
I will try to play some more.
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This is a very cool experiment, anyway :) Thanks for that ColorSchemer link! I\'m working on something at this very moment that requires various color combinations, and my current tools are one (http://colormixers.com/mixers/cmr/) and two (http://slayeroffice.com/tools/color_palette/), so something that much larger and more formal is a neat find.
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No problem :)
If you guys have very specific colors you like but not sure how to balance them, state them here anyway and I will see if I can make them work together.
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Of course everybody wants to give their opinion on how things should be.
I think the \"approval\" is in the figure of acraig/Talad, but we are just trying to give you our point of views, which might be wrong as well as right.
I personally try to balance experience with personal taste, but it is also because I have an HCI profile in the past.
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That is fine.
I\'d like to hear more personal opinions on the following (pick one):
- Dark text on light background vs light text on dark background.
- Every single color from PS logo must be used in some shade or just one or two is enough.
- Which specific colors are your favorite for this forum?
Don\'t worry. I\'ve worked on quite a few color themes for sites and forums, and even if you\'re wrong, even if I hate your choice, it may still be possible to make a certain theme look decent (yes, even brown).
I once had a client who insisted on a whole PINK wedding website, no matter what. Now that was a challenge. :D
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I go for light text on dark background, even if there is some \"philosophy\" who states that it makes the eyes more tired than the other way round.
I think just a couple of colors from the logo should be used.
I would prefer a light blue tone.
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I too prefer light text on a dark background. If colors are well picked, it\'s very easy to read. One of the rare cases where I like a dark text on a light background is on this site:
Wizards.com (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=251)
But I doubt that a similar olive color would fit with PlaneShift, since many seem to want at least something close to one of the logo colors.
I\'d like to hear others\' preferences as well.
EDIT:
Ok, you\'ve requested turquoise-ish or light-bluish, light text on dark background. By the way, it can\'t be too light blue, if you want light text readable. So, I came up with this:
Tuquoise-ish (http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/1664/torqnew2jq.png)
Hope the creator of the logo doesn\'t mind that I used it for this test.
Alternative (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9146/torqnew25lx.png)
A little less turquoise-ish, a little more bluish.
Note that I used my original \"orange-ish\", not the more dull version, which I think works for a lot of themes well. I tried using shades of red and blue for \"Important\" and it clashed too much.
These are rough shades, which can be adjusted to lighter or darker.
Any thoughts? Does it look PS-ish enough? :P
EDIT:
By the way, the reason that some people like the \"brown\" theme is because it matches the website theme. Even a bad theme (which the brown one is right now, unless tweaked) will look good and more professional if it matches the site\'s colors.
Currently, I like my bluish theme (latest Alternative) the best, considering some of the \"conditions\" set by the responses. Especially if a site is redesigned more towards bluish color. :)
One other alternative is to skin the forum. That might bring more variation in colors and how they work together. Anyone up to the task? :P
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Aw, now I can\'t decide between the two you posted ^^
*switches between tabs for a good couple of minutes*
...
*whimper*
You know, I think the alternative\'s blue is a bit too vivid/vibrant for my taste, even though it matches better with the logo. The turquoise is more calming on the eyes, which I think is most important.
Neat! \\o/
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I agree totally with Karyuu :)
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I think those color schemes might be good for a website, but not for the forums. (the \"alternative\" scheme is nice) You need lighter colors on here, so it\'s easier to read. (I really like the Wizards.com one) I would simply like the same sort of thing as the forum default, but with colors similar to the crystal logo at the top of the page. Maybe with a bold background in some areas, but not behind text. For forums, I definitely preffer lighter over darker.
Edited to add:
Btw, there\'s nothing wrong with having a default and multiple optional choices. ;)
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Aw, now I can\'t decide between the two you posted ^^
*switches between tabs for a good couple of minutes*
...
*whimper*
You know, I think the alternative\'s blue is a bit too vivid/vibrant for my taste, even though it matches better with the logo. The turquoise is more calming on the eyes, which I think is most important.
Neat! \\o/
Aww, so you actually like them? :D I want the feeling to be \"wow, this is beautiful!\". Do you like it better than default or brown?
Hmm, less vibrant bluish:
Less Vibrant 1 (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6287/torqnew39rd.png)
Even less vibrant:
Less Vibrant 2 (http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7265/torqnew47kv.png)
And even less vibrant:
Less Vibrant 3 (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8871/torqnew51ix.png)
Any better or do you still like Turquoise best? If you do, it\'s fine. Just throwing some options here.
Hopefully more people like one of these, including Turquoise. :)
UPDATE:
Moo-Haa! Moo-Haa! Moohahahahahaha! :D
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you \"PlaneShift ala Wizards\"!!! (this is what happens when a wizards theme gets through a PlaneShift grinder):
Voila! (http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/393/psalawizards3le.png)
Ok, seriously, one of the reasons Wizards looks good is because of the color choice itself. Plus, on top of pure colors, they have a skin, and a background picture. Plus, they\'re only using bolded thread titles for newly responded to threads. I added a little extra touches, that are not normally available by simply changing a color to show what it might look like. I also slightly edited the PS logo colors to fit into the theme better. Perhaps the logo doesn\'t even have to be used on a forum.
Personally, I think this is very fantasy-like and even somewhat resembles the icon colors used in PS GUI buttons (the main ones). The intensity of the colors is the same as on Wizards.com. Not sure if it\'ll look too hard on your eyes or not.
I think this is a damn good looker for a dark text on a light background (btw, ignore the yellow buttons).
However, the main website would have to be designed around those or similar colors to match the theme.
Any thoughts? :P
EDIT:
Perhaps a tad bit easier on the eyes, I don\'t know:
Voila 2 (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/915/psalawizards24xt.png)
EDIT: Hmm, I\'m thinking the latest \"wizards\" themes hurt the eyes somewhat, unless used with a good background image. Nevermind mind them then, was just playing with ideas.
Well, I\'m going to bed now, been up too late trying to tweak this. :P
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I\'m not a web developer, so my opinion maybe doesn\'t count too much in this thread, but I find Netty\'s last two examples are quite strenious on the eyes (at least on mine). I\'d rather prefer something darker, why not have something resebling dark rock?
Reason:
As PS is not a SciFi MMORPG, I think its colors should pick a bit of the colors of the PS world, like grey (stone), brown (soil), green (plants), maybe wit h some reddish touch (like red wine).
And, another personal opinion, I like having light text on dark background, and as long as the text isn\'t too bright, it is still quite readable (at least to me).
On my desktop I prefer using dark themes, as they focus my vision on the brighter spots, which are icons and text, giving me a better look.
However, all this is just my opinion ...
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Now we\'re talking! I really like voila (1), though it\'s an little bit too green. Slide it slightly towards the blue, make it a tiny bit lighter, and I think we\'ve got a good default theme. (buttons obviously need work, though) The other 3 (not sure which is the best shade; very similar) are good #2 themes, for those who like the darker feel. I think we\'re definitely getting somewhere here. :)
For all the themes, I really think we need a background panorama behind the entire top part. (similar to the Wizards forum) We might even consider a watermark in the background of the main forum selection page.
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hmm like the blue better :)
The less vibrants just look to much the same. Tried to see a difference but I really couldn\'t tell what it was sorry.
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Hmm Voila 1+2 are much better but I\'m not sure about the yellow and green buttons
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Agreed with those who have posted before, there\'s a bit too much green tint to the whole thing, but it\'s better than the previous proposals, I think :] We would definitely want some sort of \"scene\" in that top banner instead of just a logo, since I think it\'s just begging for something like that.
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To be completely honest I think that the little test theme that Netty did looks better than all of the alternatives. A darker blue would be ok as long as you gave it a more metallic look as well. The default theme works well as far as readibility but looks boring. The brown test theme is ok but causes me severe eyestrain on every computer I see it on.
I also hated that the forums link was hidden - like a secret for people to discover on accident unless someone told them about it.
Account Registration is the same way. Even better I always thought: would be that you click on the register button on the main page. You fill out account information, and a nickname which would be the name you use in the forums. One registration process - and thus your online account and forum account are the same account.
I think the real problem is manpower. I could do some graphics work maybe but between being a graphic artist for Ubuntu, my guild, and some other things plus work, I have less time than I\'d like. Truthfully I\'d work on PlaneShift full time if I had the ability to do so.
Anyways good ideas Netty - you\'ve a good eye for the sorts of issues that are on the site. Maybe bringing this up will lead to some positive change.
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Hey, guys
Thanks for the feedback! I love doing this publically, since I love immediate and multiple feedback. I\'ll keep working on it. I just hope you don\'t think that I have a bad taste, since some of my ideas were based on taste, while others purely on experimenting.
Once we pick good forum theme, I\'ll play around with website proposals (purely in Photoshop for now).
Heck, I think us starting with forum and not the site is a great thing in a way, since we have to pick something that\'s readable and easy on the eyes for the majority. I\'ve dealth with situations before where someone absolutely loved default forum colors and didn\'t want them changed, so we ended up designing a site around those colors. :)
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Originally posted by Induane
I also hated that the forums link was hidden - like a secret for people to discover on accident unless someone told them about it.
I liked the hidden thing, but yeah. By the way, there\'s also a link in the side menu on the community page. ;) Regardless, there are plenty of design things that can be done to make it all more user-friendly.
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Ok, this is wizards\' theme in blue.
Note that the color values are identical to wizards\' theme, just to be sure, the only difference being the hue, which is set to 206 (blue).
Version 1 (http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7360/psalawizardsblue4vj.png)
Version 2 (http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/9886/psalawizardsblue23ha.png)
Seems a bit dark. See how a simple difference of color rather than brightness can make a difference?
Version 1 Brighter (http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/2351/psalawizardsblue31lb.png)
Version 2 Brighter (http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/35/psalawizardsblue41yj.png)
Not sure if I like it that much. What do you think?
It almost seems like if you just have to have a blue theme but with a dark text on light background, and still have it readable, you may have to stick with the current default theme, which is similar to default themes on many other forums, and is a bit boring. However, if a PS website designed with that theme in mind, it might be ok.
Going to work on my first theme and try to change it more towards metallic blue.
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Personally, I quite like the current forum colour scheme.
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I prefer version 1 of the latest 4.
Still, I agree with you that it gets too much \"defaultish\" and it should be a bit more original.
I didn\'t like the acid green theme. Just subjective taste, I guess, there.
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Heheh, same agreement - the darker version 1 looks nicer here :) I think customizing the forums won\'t be as hard as making a \"matching\" website, but the color everyone seems to agree to are a light (but not too bright) blue.
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Since the forums are controlled by a stylesheet (iirc), they\'re easy to change. There\'s a place in the forum admin panel to change it, even. Of course some of the things don\'t match up properly (which is probably the reason for the black-on-brown text in the brown forum skin).
I\'m working on my own site thing, but it\'s secret ;]
josePhoenix
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Hmm, I don\'t know, quite a few people, including myself want a lighter text on darker background but perhaps overall feeling shouldn\'t be \"too dark\". Here\'s the edit of my very first theme:
Slightly off-white text (http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7592/forumblue18oo.png)
White text (http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/9092/forumblue29xm.png)
EDIT:
Third Variation with off-white text (http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7897/forumblue34mx.png)
IMO, all look easy on the eyes, blue enough, dark enough for lighter text but not too dark overall. We don\'t have to use the main logo with the bright crystal. The PS blue does not always have to be that bright. Even the crystal itself gets darker in the night. There is also the kind of blue that can be seen on partially lit caves. The underground world of Yliuakum is not as bright as the crystal itself, it has many variations of blue, and this current one fits, IMO. Think of it as partially lit walls of Yliakum world or the night-time of Yliakum. It does get a bit dark sometimes after all.
Going with the darker text on a light background means being veeeeeerry close to the defaultish forum colors, which not many like. That is if you want to keep the logo-bluish theme. Honestly, the default forum colors look too clinical, they remind me of a hospital, and that\'s not a good feeling, lol.
I also didn\'t want to make the blue too saturated or vivid because it becomes overbearing. So, the soft look is meant to be that way.
If you later add a skin and graphics to this theme, it will look even better.
I\'m hoping you guys like these latest versions.
Originally posted by josephoenix
Since the forums are controlled by a stylesheet (iirc), they\'re easy to change. There\'s a place in the forum admin panel to change it, even. Of course some of the things don\'t match up properly (which is probably the reason for the black-on-brown text in the brown forum skin).
I\'m working on my own site thing, but it\'s secret ;]
josePhoenix
Hehe, I think I know what you\'re up to. I won\'t say how because I don\'t want to ruin the secret. The only thing I suggest is not to use a left-justified layout. Try centered and elastic. :)
Perhaps you guys should wait with the forum color theme until josephoenix completes the \"secret\".
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I appreciate the work that is going into figuring out new colors and themes for the website and forums. I don\'t really care how they end up looking--I\'m sure they will be fine. What sets this thread apart from a million others, though, is that now a person who was being critical is now actually trying to move us forward. Thanks for that Netty.
- Venge
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Indeed :D
Though if I may continue poking with my random personal opinions - I feel that we\'re back in the too-dark scheme with the latest themes. Moreover I\'ve never been fond of yellow and blue, and orange and blue have only worked when both are really vibrant. I think if colors are cool, a dark tone feels too heavy.
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I don\'t like blue at all. I really like the brown PlaneShift-test theme. If it had some icons specific to it which matched the rest of the brown theme instead of being blue (like the new posts/no new posts icons), then I\'d be even more happy to stick with it.
Edit:
Variant icons of these would look good for that example above: (http://www.planeshift.it/images/news.jpg)
So yeah... I\'m a brown supporter :P I think blue just doesn\'t feel PlaneShifty/Fantasy at all, more sci-fi, and it doesn\'t match our current website, the theme of which I personally like the look of. And I find brown more soothing to the eye than blue.
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Hello,
I\'ve been pretty busy with work lately, so I didn\'t have time to post any new updates for a while. However, I\'ve finally gotten a chance to play around with this again and came up with something new.
I decided to drop previous ideas for now for the following reasons - no matter how good a combination of colors and/or design we pick for this forum, all of it will mean nothing, if it doesn\'t match the website\'s colors. Website colors can, in theory, be changed to match what we pick for the forum but there is no such guarantee. What if Luca won\'t accept new designs? What if he insists on the current color choices, even if he will appreciate new designs? There are quite a few existing graphics with the current brownish color theme, so the artists may not have time to do a complete make-over, just because of a color change.
Besides, brown can look damn good. When I said it was overbearing or bad, it\'s not that the color itself is bad, it\'s just that it was utilized in a bad way.
I have decided to go with a theme that matches the current site. However, I got rid of everything I hated in the current brown theme that is selectable on this forum. I also added some graphics. If some of you still think that a dark text on light background would be better - I don\'t think so. Whether it\'s better to you personally or not, the colors must match the website\'s colors, otherwise it looks unprofessional. So, let\'s make the best of it, shall we?
Example 1 (http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/7751/pstheme17lw.png)
Even though the image is quite large in the width, the forum (and the site) in this example are meant to be set up as an elastic layout. This means that the forum will stretch up to a certain point at higher resolutions, and shrink, theoretically forever, at the lower. I had the same idea for PlaneShift website when I mentioned an elastic layout.
Note that the forum is never meant to touch the edges of the screen, even with a small margin. It is always meant to have a bit of space on the left and right. The reason for this (and a certain limit for elastic width) is that at some point, with insanely large (wide) monitors, it becomes hard to scan so much with your eyes horizontally, even if the whole thing fits onto your screen. That is why I believe an elastic layout is better than both, fixed and fluid.
However, a fixed width option is a good alternative in this case as well.
I got rid of the ugly yellow frame, lightened up the hard-to-read text, got rid of the black text and added some graphics. The forum icons were thrown there very quickly and some are probably not the best choices for each category. However, this is just to give an idea. I really like the idea with GUI icons on PlaneShift France forum. You can see it here (http://www.zelphira.com/planeshift/frphpBB2/).
I didn\'t bother making new \"Search\", \"Register\" and similar buttons. I simply gave them a quick color-change, so they don\'t stick out like a sore thumb. However, using something new in their place would make the forum look even nicer.
***
Example 1 (a) (http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1694/pstheme1gd0yb.png)
This is simply a small extension of the first theme to see what the \"General Discussion\" bit might look like.
***
Example 2 (http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2784/pstheme22ur.png)
Same as the first example but with slightly different colors - more brown.
***
Example 2 (a) (http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7799/pstheme2gd5zo.png)
\"General Discussion\" extension of \"Example 2\".
***
Example 2 (b) (http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/5742/pstheme2gd26sh.png)
Alternative extension of \"Example 2\".
***
Seamless (ish) background (http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/369/seamlessbg3am.png)
In case you are curious, this is the seamless (ish) background (reduced to 800 width for viewing) behind the main forum. I quickly took an in-game screenshot, made a seamless bg, coupled with a little graphic on top. It then merges into brown. The screenshot containts about two repeats of the background. The image can be reduced/optimized to save size, of course. This is just a rough version.
I can\'t remember where I got the top graphic, I think it might\'ve been at PSMC site (I mean that little bar with the background, not the 3D renders with Kran and Fenki). As you can see, it\'s in style with PS GUI graphics. I hope no one minds that I used it. As it was purely used for test and only for this purpose and not any other project.
Anyway, I really like how the themes turned out and I hope you like them too. Although remember, these are somewhat rought drafts and a lot can still be added. For example, more custom PS-theme icons, background and forum skins instead of pure colors, and so on. If you have your own ideas on what to add, feel free to post a screenshot. ;)
Let me know what you think.
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wow, http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/7751/pstheme17lw.png
This is so beautiful !!!
I would definetly use this skin if it existed.
But with few changes
1. The forum width can\'t be defined by hard. When i make my window wider, i want the forum text space be wider too.
The left and right margins can\'t be too wide. max 40 pixels
2. The brown #A0806F color of forum description/posts count/common posts text should be lighter thus easy to read. I propose #C8B1A4
3. I don\'t like the windows logo assigned to bugs ;) this aren\'t just windows bugs (or i\'m wrong) but all kinds of bugs under different OS.
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I didnt read all the previous posts so i dont know if someone has suggested this before but there could be a make donation button in the website. Then there would be at least a one way to thank the game makers for this FREE game.
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Example 1 is awesome! Like Nikodemus I would definately use that theme if it existed :D
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Both examples are great :) I prefer example 2 over example 1 I think.
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@Netty: Regarding the tiling bar in the seamless background: I put that together from samples of the PlaneShift GUI images for use in my loading screens. I have one example uploaded now, here (http://josephoenix.ps-mc.com/loading.template.greenish.png).
Technically, the copyright belongs to Atomic Blue Inc., but since these are made for PlaneShift I don\'t think anyone would have a problem with it ;]
@Xordan: I already made some forum icons in this style for my phpBB skin (http://ps-mc.com/skintest/)...
(http://www.ps-mc.com/skintest/templates/psGreen/images/folder_big.gif)
(http://www.ps-mc.com/skintest/templates/psGreen/images/folder_new_big.gif)
(http://www.ps-mc.com/skintest/templates/psGreen/images/folder_locked_big.gif)
For regular, with new posts, and locked, respectively.
In other newsI\'ve been working on my secret thing, and came up with two colorscheme/layout things. They aren\'t perfect, but they display like I want them to in FireFox and even IE, for which you have the people in #css on freenode to thank ;]
Behold! The Streets of Ojaveda (http://www.ps-mc.com/psmain/)!
And the Blue City (http://www.ps-mc.com/psmain/index2.html) (Actually, I lied. This one is still a little weird in IE)
Not revolutionary, I grant you, but PS Themed. And with secret info on the Laanx Server.
josePhoenix
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Netty, this is amazing :) Absolutely gorgeous design! I personally prefer Example 1 more, with the bluer bars, but both examples are really well-done. I would love to see this look adopted for the forums and website.
As always, thanks for taking the time to do this :)
*edit* Hm.. you know, looking at this theme further there is one thing that irks me - though the use of the PS icons is beautiful, it doesn\'t let one see when there are new posts or threads in that forum, which I personally find vital. If there was some sort of obvious visual change (something other than a color/tone variation), that would be just grand.
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Wah, Kary didn\'t comment on my design.. perhaps because I\'ve been pestering her about it for so long she\'s become unsensitive to it :P
About Netty\'s forum design (which I am just having a chance to look at properly):
I\'m not convinced about the blue bars for category titles; they don\'t seem to fit with an \"earthy\" color scheme (which is what pervades the rest with the green and brown).
On the other example you changed it to a dark brown. in my most conceited opinion, the category titles would look better if they were lighter than the background of the forum description. The categories are supposed to stand out and divide up the mess of forums, with a dark background you don\'t notice them as much.
With the collage at the top, it would look better without a black 1px border on the top of the image, since you already have your border with the green/gold top bar. A small detail that you probably would have changed if you were making the actual stylesheet instead of a mock-up :P
Also about the collage, I think you should reverse the order of the two rendered images.. the way it is now, poor Mr. Kran has \"PlaneShift\" plastered across his face.
also, I get the feeling that the color it fades to at the right should be different, but I\'m not quite sure how >.> hmm
Overall, very nice. Also, even if some time in the future the website changes, this forum supports multiple skins, so as long as the default theme is matching there\'s no reason half the users (including me!) wouldn\'t use yours :P
josePhoenix
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Netty, can you provide me with some of the actual images? I have a copy of the forum software running on my local machine and want to do some experiments. You\'ve also eluded to elastic layout several times. Can you expand on what that is? My focus lie in software and hardware, most of the pages I look at are white papers :).
I can google around a bit but would be interested in understanding what an elastic layout actually is and the correct way to achieve that.
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elastic layout (as I understand it ;]) is using a distance from each side of the page to define width, as opposed to a static width in px, which would accomodate different screen sizes and text size preferences.
Er.
In other words, pretty much what we have now, only with more divs and less tables.
edit: I did a swift googling and came upon an \"A List Apart\" article, which you might be interested in. Apparently my definition was only half right... >.>
A List Apart: Elastic Design (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/elastic/)
josePhoenix
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I like example1 the most - even though, I think that the website could be adapted on colours and I hope it won\'t remain as it is right now.
@jose, the light brown is better than the blue, but imho, the logo doesn\'t fit in the background and the left menu seems to me a bit too much \"squared\"... of course, it is made by rectangles....
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Originally posted by Karyuu
*edit* Hm.. you know, looking at this theme further there is one thing that irks me - though the use of the PS icons is beautiful, it doesn\'t let one see when there are new posts or threads in that forum
Hmm just have the coloured versions if there\'s new posts, and greyed/browned out (monochrome-ish) versions of the exact same images when there\'s nothing new.
There, problem solved ;)
No wait -- solution suggested. :)
I have to agree, that I really like that last draft, with the colours in the first example. I didn\'t really like the blue stuff, every other page on the net has blue colours, perhaps my eyes are just bored of it.
The image at the top looks just great!
About elastic/fixed with etc:
It is absolutely correct that too many words/characters per line make it hard to read the text. Generally, as a rule of thumb for technical documents, about 60 characters per line enable you to read the text the most fluidly, acoording to some research/experiment that I do not have a link to (LaTeX e.g. uses a maximum of 67 characters per line by default if I remember correctly, if there\'s a lot of narrow characters in the text like i and l it will simply increase the space between words a little bit, which is not noticable).
On the current forum settings on 1280x1024, there\'s easily the double or even triple amount of characters per line, which makes it uncomfortable to read.
Bottom line: An elastic design like here (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/063/063.css&page=0) is probably the way to go.
Since phpBB bases skins on CSS, this is definately doable. :)
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That design looks a bit odd at 1600x1200... well the background is extremely green :P
anyhow, just a small detail, but we\'re using Woltlab Burning Board and not phpBB
josePhoenix
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About elastic design:
Tables is what i know best and use most in html and to make elastic table, I:
1 row, 3 collumns table:
left collumn |
forum main content |
right collumn |
A good example, but more for an elastic height you can find there (http://www.freepgs.com/crimsonorder/index.html)
I do realize it doesn\'t have much to do with css, but maybe not everything must be done in css. Hope it help.
As about the colors
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/7751/pstheme17lw.png
I like the dark celadon color (green-blue mix) bars because this are the colors which PS GUI has. The whole Nettys design consists of PS GUI elements.
I don\'t treat it as slight edit of the current brown skin, but somethink what look much more like the PS GUI and not PS website. As for the website, i think it is too brown btw. It\'s another reason why I think the green-blue color looks great.
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i think that the game is more important and that the website should be in second rank as i want a more bugfree game ;)... maybe when the game get\'s in beta something should be done with the website... although the only thing that really needs to be changed is the dead meat thingy and the flash introduction
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Different people are/will be working on the game and on the website, so they could be done at once.
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Thanks for the compliments and suggestions, guys.
Ok, I\'ve taken everyone\'s criticism under advisement and this is what I came up with to update \"Example 1\":
Update (http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/3137/psthemeforumearthyfinal7hs.png)
A more \"earthy\" theme. I\'m not sure if it\'s better or worse. I\'ve been staring at it for so long, I don\'t know anymore.
EDIT2: Oops, now the \"Update\" link has a proper version (finally).
EDIT3: Hmm, nevermind the resources, I removed them for now. I\'ll arrange them differently and post them later. I just had a different idea, so it adjust better for lower resolutions like 800x600, without overlapping too much.
Let me know what you guys think. Is the new color for the bars better? I kind of think the old was a bit better but this one might be a bit more \"earthy\" for josephoenix. Is the grayish better than brown? Does it look more \"earthy\" to you? Or feel free to actually edit the PNG of the main screenshot I posted (especially if it\'s a simple color change) and post your idea.
Well, that\'s all for now. :)
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I liked the more vivid brown a -bit- more, so maybe we can find something further in between? Regardless, this grey-ish tone works as well :) I\'m loving it.
I think the logo is too small at the top banner though - I would have moved it to the right and expanded, instead of using the circle graphic. Otherwise, this is gorgeous work.
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i like it, its very nice look(both of them =P)
has a side note: would it be possible to make the letters in the \"last post\" collumn in the forums, \"thread name\" to not bold, is just for a easier way to identify new threads
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Whenever a forum section is updated, we have an icon that shows up at the left of the section name, as well as by that thread when you enter the section: (http://planeshift3d.com/wbboard/images/psnew/on.gif)
I would still like to keep something like this, since it\'s the easiest way to check for new content.
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My local forums testing results:
Forum Image (http://www.blueoceans.ca/andrew/ps/forums.png)
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Originally posted by acraig
My local forums testing results:
Forum Image (http://www.blueoceans.ca/andrew/ps/forums.png)
Good color match for reading, and it has the dark effect so many gamers like, without being gloomy. The default font may need to have a thicker stroke for easier reading. [Macs screens aren\'t real good for type--tends to get lined or contrasted to the extent that b&w needs high gamma for extended reading periods--but the colors you\'ve used are much better than b&w.]
I haven\'t been around for awhile, perhaps in game graphics have been changed somewhat, but I don\'t know what race the character on the right is. Also, have the colors of Kran been changed from blue? (or is this promotional art? It looks real good.)
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There were several different \"mineral\" tones available for Kran, as skins, and there will be as well in the future - marble, granite, sandstone, etc. The female on the right is a Dermorian, a model that was available in MB.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
There were several different \"mineral\" tones available for Kran, as skins, and there will be as well in the future - marble, granite, sandstone, etc.
And don\'t forget the crowd favorite, Rocky Road :3
*rimshot*
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Just a quick update with most of the original theme brought back but with improvements and a bit of the grayish on background:
Update 2 (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7236/psthemeforumearthyfinal7bk.png)
However, I know that more editing and work is needed. Plus, I\'m trying to think up of the best way for the top graphic to shrink enough at 800x600 and still look good, and yet be able to expand with higher resolutions, and also, look good.
Not to mention, I have to watch the filesize of the images and perhaps, make compromises on the style, so the dial-up users don\'t scream in agony, while waiting for the page to load.
Speaking of 800x600, it does not fit with the current setup (I mean the default theme here) because the graphic is a bit too long horizontally, so there\'s a horizontal scroll-bar.
It would also be nice to have the original uncompressed images to work with rather than already compressed JPEGs, which contain compression artifacts.
One other thing is I\'ve done a little more research on the Woltlab Burning Board, and it seems this 1.2 version is very old. Woltlab has dropped all support for it and warns of some serious security issues and bugs with it. The latest and popular version is 2.3 series. But I do understand that it costs money and this is a free project, so...
There also doesn\'t seem to be as large a community for WBB as for phpBB. There is a German community but the English one seems to be rather young. However, I\'ve found sites that sell commercial skins for WBB. Surprisingly, many of them aren\'t good.
If this forum was upgraded to 2.3, there\'s a very nice site with various free mods for it at http://www.wbbmods.com. Well, down to 2.0, as far as commercial versions go.
Anyway, I\'ll have to take some time later to think which direction the forum and website colors should go. One of the biggest problems here is that the majority of people can\'t seem to settle on a general direction for the theme. Some will love one, and others won\'t. Even if a good theme is chosen, someone will come and say that they wish that PS logo colors were used in the theme. But then again, is the PS logo really set in stone? Can it not be changed too?
I would at least like one clear answer from some of you - should the brown stay in some form or go? I agree that the current website looks too brown but should we get rid of it completely or try to make it work with other colors, which diffuse excessive \"brownness\"?
The current direction in \"Example 1\" was an attempt to make it compatible with PlaneShift Guide, which adds blue+green to brown (though still too much brown). That and PlaneShift GUI.
Just as an example, if I gave you think link:
Link (http://www.landofwarcraft.com/board/index.php)
And said that this is the theme I picked for PlaneShift (ignore the Warcraft graphic), would you immediately say, \"oh, this is obviously Warcraft\"? That means you consider those colors to be \"WoW\" specific. Or would they work for PlaneShift? Don\'t just say, \"something like that but different\". I want to hear if you strongly believe there are certain theme colors for PlaneShift or if anything goes. If you honestly don\'t have a set theme but are open to anything, then that\'s fine, say that. :)
So far, there seems to be this notion:
Too much brown isn\'t good - check
Blue is overused - check
Not certain about blue+green color bars (not the graphic but the solid color) - check
Uncertainty about the color that the top graphic fades into - check
When some like the vivid brown and blue+green and others are uncertain, there\'re only two options - to have it or not to have it. \"Something in-between\" already loses the original feeling.
I\'m just trying to find something that majority will like. :)
Just for a little experiment - if a red color was used, would you immediately consider it to be non-PlaneShifty?
Perhaps then you could list the colors that you think should not be used in the theme?
We need to decide one thing right now, which will be helpful - does pretty much anything go color-wise when it comes to PlaneShift theme or do you believe there is a specific set of colors? If we don\'t decide it now, it\'ll be like poking in the dark. I\'m holding off on doing more detailed graphics touches and effects because there\'s no point, if someone will suddenly say, \"oh, that looks great and I would use it for everything else but it\'s just not PlaneShift colors\". And then they say, \"But I\'m not sure what PlaneShift colors should be\". You get the idea. :)
So, I need more feedback. Be open and harsh, if you like, towards some colors. Say you hate this color for PS or you hate that. Say something looks dull. I don\'t care if it was in one of my tests. I hate some of them too. ;)
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The reason that we\'ve resisted changing the forums is that it is uncertain that we would be able to import all of the current forum data into a new one. As you said this version of the forums is fairly old and I am not even sure we would be able to easily update to a new version. Plus we are already familar with this board and it\'s software so moving to new board software only makes additional work for us. What are the most popular boards that are in use? I assume it\'s phpBB at this point. But I don\'t want to switch just because phpBB is something other people are used to.
I will try to see if Talad has any \'official\' colours that he would want to use. Brown and blue doesn\'t really work well together but since the game is mostly underground I am thinking earth tone colours are the norm.
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I ran across this in another forum. Someone wanted to convert from burning boards 1.2 to phpbb.
This was the solution discovered. It would be easy enough to make a parallel site temporarily to test the database transfer, theme, etc.. and once its all working right, do the final database transfer, and make the switch.
We\'ll be doing something similar with our site when we finish making the switch from phpnuke to mambo.
late, but here it is Wink
Ashe wrote:
Woltlab Burning Board 1.1.1 to phpBB 2.0.x
Version 1.0.0
You will need these two archives to use the converter:
Unified Converter System: convert.zip
wBB 1.1.1 converter file: convert_wbb111.zip
To install it, unzip convert.zip then upload everything to your phpBB2 directory. Upload the converter file in the convert/ directory then go to http://www.yoursite.com/phpBB2/convert/
After you have converted your forum, launch the search re-indexing then destroy your forum when you are sure you won\'t need it anymore. Wink (it will drop all wBB tables)
for wbb 1.2 open \"convert_wbb111.php\", search for
Code:
\"\'test_file\' => \'class_db_zugriff.php\'\"
and change it to
Code:
\'test_file\' => \'admin/class_db_zugriff.php\'
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Well, according to WBB site, they supposedly have a guide to a smooth conversion from older versions. You can also post a question on how to convert safely at http://www.wbbmods.com/ and the experts there will help. But your explanation is kind of understandable. I just hope that the security issues that Woltlab speaks of aren\'t going to surface here.
Anyway, up to this point, I tried to adapt a theme that already has some familiarity with existing site and GUI because I thought that\'s what people might\'ve wanted, and just going by suggestions and reactions here. However, I think, perhaps, that I\'m going in an opposite direction from my own advice that I always used in the past for picking colors.
Basically, sometimes a client would insist on specific colors, regardless of my recommendation against them, so in a way, I didn\'t have to worry about a color theme and just made the best of what they picked. Yes, I made pink look good before. :D
However, in most other times, I used the Color Harmony Theory, combined with my own feeling. The Color Theory has been proven to work in majority of cases, so I think I will try it instead. As much as some people would like to see the current \"logo\" colors somehow combined, some of it may not be in harmony. I will, for now, ignore the logo (since it can be remade) and see what I can come up with by using a color wheel. If anything, it should all be in harmony in the end. I will, of course, try to make it look \"fantasy\".
This may take some time, so don\'t expect an update from me too soon, considering I have other work too but I will take a serious look at what may work well, especially with existing PlaneShift 3D renders.
By the way, for anyone curious what I\'m talking about with the Color Theory, here\'s an excellent article on it:
Color Theory (http://mpk.deviantart.com/journal/3752071/)
A little quote from that article:
==========Colour Theory
The use of colour plays an important part with audiences. People are able to identify colour more than any of the other 3 layout attributes I have acknowledged. It\'s due to the fact colour has a basic law of magnetism with it. Either the viewer is attracted to the colours or they are repelled to them. Some people are unable to comprehend why they like a site consisting of colours outside of their favorite colours spectrum yet they just know they like it. This is similar to that of magnets. You can\'t quite ?see? why a north-pole facing magnet repels another north-pole facing magnet and why a north-pole facing magnet attracts a south-pole facing magnet but you observe that it does and you accept it. Taking this idea of attractive/repellent colours, I can now move onto colour theory.
Balancing colours can be difficult to achieve. Balancing colours while maintaining a purpose in your selection can also be quite perplexing when devising a scheme. I often pick colours depending on my mood, what I am experiencing at that moment in time and so fourth. This is taken on an artistic idea that it\'s possible to have a painting of different sized and different coloured circles, reflect your personality and character. Colours can say an awful lot about your character and I enforce this with every piece of work I produce. Like the clich?d saying goes, \"Actions speak louder than words\". The action in the example of a layout is the colour choice and the words refer to the content obviously. All of that aside, it\'s important to have a basic understanding of colours and how they can work together effectively.
This is what I usually based my choices on in the past.
By the way, if there\'s a secret location to download uncompressed original images of 3D renders and other non-posted artwork, which could be anything from a concept art to old PlaneShift MUD promotional graphics, feel free to send me a PM with the location to such a download. But if it\'s not available unless one is on a team, that is fine, I understand. I will try to make do with what I can find on my own, plus possibly my own additions.
I will, however, try to utilize as much of an already done work for PS as I can, just to show that there is, indeed, a wealth of resources, and it\'s just a matter of utilizing them properly.
I\'ll post an update whenever I have something new. But if you have anything to add, feel free. :)
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I think the color matching is definetely fine - I like the style and the \"connection\" with PS GUI.
It is not SCI-fi, still it is really \"fantasy medieval\" and the idea of using the same icons, just makes things better, imho.
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All right, if people would like to keep the PS GUI feel, I\'ll try to go for that. Perhaps, part of the problem with forum colors is the way main website looks, so maybe I\'ll concentrate on that instead. Besides, it looks like the forum may be changed to phpBB in the future, so it\'ll be easier to adopt the website for that later than have to redo wBB skin.
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I hear that phpBB is very frequently hacked unless it\'s constantly kept up to date. Anybody have any first hand knowledge of this? In this case a less known board may be safer ( though that safety is an illusion really )
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Yes it is frequently hacked. However, I haven\'t seen any more updates since the version 2.0.19 came out in December 2005.
The nice thing is that the update process was easy and fully automated, no data was lost in the database and the administrator panel checks for new versions every time I go onto it.
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Because Nettys design is png format, so no resizing and looking how does it behalve, I have made simple example
http://www.freepgs.com/crimsonorder/things/elasticforum/elastic.html
I don\'t know if you have similiar version, but I also wanted to learn something and give some ideas to Acraig.
I hope I helped
It\'s elastic
Everything is made in css
The logo is shorter, but you won\'t see where it ends in case of very wide resolution because i have added proper background color
But it is only example and i think the right border scale because of some weird reason...
I also do agree phpBB isn\'t good choice. I think it has less common user options than other forums. I don\'t think so we can browse these forums in various skins without logging in, for example.
And it\'s of course less secure than other boards because it\'s so popular.
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Niko,
The forum example is GREAT! Love how the font looks on top and bottom of the \"bar\". Of course, it doesn\'t validate yet and needs more code tweaks but I\'m sure you just quickly made a rough test.
I\'m currently working on the PS website for a change (was a bit sick of forum), and I already have some great ideas. I\'m incorporating the GUI feel. I\'m in that inspired mood right now *knocks on wood* and don\'t want to lose the momentum. But your test with my example arrangement looks great so far. Keep it up. This is what\'s great about it - more than a single person working on it and testing things. :)
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Ok, if people have forum software that they would like to see please send me a message about it. No promises or anything, just looking at different options.
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Well, as far as phpBB goes, it is an older software and there\'s a huge community but also more vulnerabilities, as it was mentioned. However, many of them do get fixed, even if not as fast as in commercial forum software. Also, it does take quite a bit of tweaking to get phpBB to where you want it, unlike with some commercial forum software. On the other hand, if you keep using WBB 1.2 and not upgrade, the existing vulnerabilities will always be present.
Theoretically, no forum software is completely secure, there have been security issues in every commercial forum version at some point. So, you always need to update. Are you guys prepared to keep on buying newer versions of a commercial software to get the latest fixes?
Speaking of phpBB, those guys that want a free forum software but have gotten disappointed by phpBB, usually swear by SMF (http://www.simplemachines.org/). It\'s pretty young, and its community is young too but people seem to like it a lot.
Out of commercial ones, vBulletin seems to be leading but it is also the most expensive. Cheaper (not cheap) but pretty much as popular is IPB.
Actually, Woltlab Burning Board is pretty good, if you\'re willing to upgrade to the latest versions. Plus, you guys are used to it already. The old 1.2 version that you guys are using definitely has security issues. There were even security issues in earlier 2.x versions but they supposedly fixed them. The latest one is 2.3, and the price seems ok.
You can see the user and admin demos here (http://www.woltlab.info/products/burning_board/index_en.php).
But take a look at SMF (http://www.simplemachines.org/) and see if you like it first. :)
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I have fixed the site. I do realize that the forum tables design is dfferent that the one i made, but it was the best i could.
link to fixed example (http://www.freepgs.com/crimsonorder/things/elasticforum/elastic.html)
Now it scales as it should in firefox as i used the \"float:\" ( IE was reading the table corectly whatsuprised me :P, but it doesnt matter anymore)
Opera reads it same as Firefox does now.
IE can\'t read css correctly (nothing new). It doesn\'t read \"border-spacing: 0px;\"
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Yep, this one is better with alignment.
I still like the top graphic, at least the two-render merger (and will probably use it for the website as well), simply because those are the highest quality of all publically available PlaneShift renders I could find. Others have a Kran that looks like he\'s made of clay. The Dermorian female render looks ok but it\'s based on an old and early in-game model, which will most likely look different in the newer releases.
I wish the PlaneShift wallpaper had a version without the \"spider\" following Kran and Fenki.
Who worked on the 3D renders anyway? Is that person still around? Do they have the lossless originals? Just curious.
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I stumbled over some content managers (CM) like Mambo (http://mamboserver.com/) and then over Joomla (http://www.joomla.org/) I asked in IRC and got referred to this (http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1).
A comparison and list of different CMs.
As I see this thread also being about the mainpage (http://www.planeshift.it) and how to polish it, I think a new and OS CM would be nice for that.
I really have not much experience in those, but I\'ve seen the pages and like to keep the ball rolling with updating the forums and the mainpage.
So, if you know about those CMs and like to tell your experiences with them, feel free :)
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Well I have some experiences using Mambo/Joomla and at the moment with Drupal (http://www.drupal.org). Drupal is very great, flexible and cool :)
I am providing a german PS-site (using drupal) and, well I really would help you to restructure your site, but I am not really a great designer...
I have some ideas on restructuring the site for a better usability and I am also willing to reimplement the content etc. in the new structure, so I could do all the "dirty" timeconsuming things.
My question here is, if there is any sense in doing basic brainwork and if there is a graficsdesigner* in your team who would like to work together with me.
To the point, taht I may suddenly disaapear:
I love planeshift :love:, I am hosting the germanps-site for about 10 months and improving it nearly once every two weeks, and of course I promis :flowers:
PS: nice smileys :thumbup:
_____________
*since I see the biggest problems in the usabilty, I even could use the existing look and grafics and only restructure it.
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I would say that if you're interested in working on PS site, by all means, do so, even though I'm already working on it. This isn't a competition, so it's fine. I think josePhoenix is working on one as well. =)
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Well... I didn't know :-)
Wouldn't it make sense to work together?
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No, keep it secret, keep it safe! ;]
If you like, I will PM you when I am done with my part. We can then take it from there.
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hehe ...
Yes great idea, lets do it this way :)
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I think it is awsome :thumbup: that you guy are putting this much effort into the look and feel of the PS web experience (both the forums and the website) \\o//
I have seen many color combos that i like, and they just seem to get better and better.
Hats of to you who have contributed!! \\o// Keep up the awsome work.
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I have editet the smileys and deletetd the white border.
Here you go: http://ps.fromp.net/files/smile.tar.gz
And I love the new look!
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Drupal would my first choice, too. You are able to build easy modules like http://yliakum.de/planeshift
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looks fine to me.