PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Isra on April 18, 2006, 02:06:01 pm
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OMFG! 800 trias for one gold ore? 3000 for the platinum ingot? 6000 for molten platinum? well....if this is how things are suposed to be well....no coment there , if this is a bug....well if this goes for the rest of the day many .....MANY millions will flood the allready ruined game economy...
/me looks at his 700 circles , hard earned in 5 months of play \"hope I`ll get a beer for them tomorrow\"
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Originally posted by Isra
OMFG! 800 trias for one gold ore? 3000 for the platinum ingot? 6000 for molten platinum? well....if this is how things are suposed to be well....no coment there , if this is a bug....well if this goes for the rest of the day many .....MANY millions will flood the allready ruined game economy...
/me looks at his 700 circles , hard earned in 5 months of play \"hope I`ll get a beer for them tomorrow\"
Put like that yes wipe the lot..
But first stop and think how many hours spent mining. not to mention getting in and out to mine the ore. then finding and doing the quest to get the skill...
Also before what did you get for all that hard work ?
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OMFG! 800 trias for one gold ore? 3000 for the platinum ingot? 6000 for molten platinum? well....if this is how things are suposed to be well....no coment there , if this is a bug....well if this goes for the rest of the day many .....MANY millions will flood the allready ruined game economy...
prices of materials and the like a beeing tweaked due to the implementation of crafting.. hopefully they will get sorted soon.
and i cant see this having much more of a devistating effect on the economy. As you say its already pretty messed up from the sword epidemic. Wipes will come around sometime though. Best to things get sorted first though.
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actually in my oppinion, not a money wipe is in order, because money allways come and go, a skill wipe is deffinately in order, think of the 100\'s of millions spent into PLing
/me looks at Isra and many more
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Originally posted by makita
actually in my oppinion, not a money wipe is in order, because money allways come and go, a skill wipe is deffinately in order, think of the 100\'s of millions spent into PLing
/me looks at Isra and many more
My reason for maxing skills was testing system for bugs as we are meant too and to get it out way so i could get on and role-play and do my thing My Way.
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But first stop and think how many hours spent mining. not to mention getting in and out to mine the ore. then finding and doing the quest to get the skill... Also before what did you get for all that hard work ?
Quest to get the skill? Hmm... i\'m not aware about the existance of a quest to get the mining skill...
Anyway the point is that the value of the ores and other raw crafting materials only increased for a short while. As Drey said, the prices, weights and alot of other aspects regarding the crafting system are not permanent yet. Thus by extrapolation you can say that those are bugs so, anybody who will get caught exploiting them... well... you know... The fact that mining didn\'t pay well in the past is no excuse for exploits also.
About the wipe thing, i think players will be verry anoyed if the devs will wipe the DB after each bug. There WILL be a wipe but not everytime somebody thinks he/she got disadvantaged because somebody exploited a bug.
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By Syliph
Quest to get the skill? Hmm... i\'m not aware about the existance of a quest to get the mining skill...
I meant the new skill to ennoble you to do Stock casting.
Also you need to do it to gain experience so it wont in my case be exploiting but training skill.
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[/QUOTE]
About the wipe thing, i think players will be verry anoyed if the devs will wipe the DB after each bug. There WILL be a wipe but not everytime somebody thinks he/she got disadvantaged because somebody exploited a bug.
[/QUOTE]
It`s not about me beeing disadvantaged , I don`t realy need anything , no training , no weapon and I have enaugh for beer...I hope , btw I can allwas join the mining mob
this is more about the game it`s self , if so much cash hits the market at once , well....you`ll figure out the efects on the game and on any business attempt , and by business atempt I don`t mean \"Selling /10ss 100 millions\"
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Don\'t wipe the skills golly /me watches lifetimes pass trying to get back to where she is . . . and over and over again?
Could care less about tria it will always be easy enough to earn. But skills require a lot, by my standards, to raise. I am nowhere near maxed on most things but a skill wipe would be disheartening to say the least.
I know this is alpha, I know things happen etc . . .
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We\'re all here for testing, so we\'re going to test the economy ;)
A wipe is badly needed, and is always looming in the distance, both for items and stats/skills.
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It\'s not that a few people managed to get very rich fast that disturbs me so much. People get lucky in real life as well. Planeshift just has its own type of lottery .. instead of finding the winning numbers you can find the winning bugs ;)
What does disturb me is that word of these bugs get out and now every one is suddenly mining and melting. Something like this completely disrupts my roleplaying atmosphere since my otherwise always lone miner is now lost in a crowd of sheep.
[/end rant]
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Roleplay it as it is, Zan :) The economy has changed and there is a need and desire for natural minerals. That means more characters that want to strike it rich but have no experience will be squabbling over the sites and rights.
The Gold Rush \\o/
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it seems to me that the money thing is hardly a problem compared to the experiance bugs, like getting a thousand exp from a rogue that isn\'t much harder than a rat. Those are the ones that annoy me because i\'d been wasting all my time in the sewers when in 30 secs i got 5 prog points....!
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Wow, calm down.
You can\'t expect everything to go smooth right off the bat.
Every time something new comes along there are bound to be a few bugs with it. The devs can\'t think of every single
thing so just be patient, anyways we all know a wipe is coming sooner or later so relax, after all this is Planeshift.
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Yeah, now more than ever we are testers. The Devs have become more hesitant to do wipes because a lot of the community has spoken up against them. I believe the Devs are hoping to catch a few more cough ups before the next wipe so that we won\'t need one right after.
Umm, to explain what I said. Imagine they had wiped after people complained about the ease of maxing out and then a few months later because of the sword thingy and then now again because of the economy. Three wipes, can you imagine how many people would have left because of that.
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As usual, people are overreacting.
6,000 per platinum ore is a lot, but there\'s a lot that goes into that:
- mining skill
- knowing where to mine for gold, iron, and platinum
- doing the necessary quests
- doing the necessary leg work
- putting the time into getting the platinum
What you get in return:
- trias
- mining skill
Now, compare that to fighting in the arena. You can get what? 20,000 trias in under an hour or so, if you\'re covering multiple spawns? I haven\'t kept track of how much money I make with my character, so I\'m not sure what the exact figures are. I do know this, however:
- it requires skill in light armour and a weapon
- a possible cost is health potions
What you get in return:
- a lot of money
- good weapons which you can sell to other players or use yourself
- training and experience in combat skills
I think that mining and fighting for money is relatively ballanced. With mining, you might make more money but you don\'t become a better fighter as a result, nor do you get a chance at looting powerful weapons. A silverweave weapon can sell for anywhere from 100,000 trias to a million.
As far as the wipe goes, I agree that to test game ballance you need to start from scratch and see how things play out after a few weeks. However, my personal experience is not ruined because other people have more trias and higher skill levels. Really, it barely affects me at all.
As far as people leaving because of wipes, I don\'t think this is the case. People come and go all the time, even regulars. As starting up new characters is fun, especially since it gives you \"permission\" to try a new approach to your character.
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Oh no, I believe you misunderstood. I was saying that if it had happened three times in that past few months they may leave. I doubt any will leave because of one wipe.
And you raise a good point. One thing I would like to point out is that only so many people can be fighting in the arena at one time whereas there is no limit to how many can be mining. Gives mining an edge because you can always mine.
Either way, I agree it is mostly balanced
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Originally posted by Waylander
The Devs have become more hesitant to do wipes because a lot of the community has spoken up against them.
That\'s ridiculous :) Where do you get your information? We do wipes when necessary, not because we feel like it. If it needs doing, it will be done regardless of who or how many complain.
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Meh, it\'s not information, it\'s common sense. If the Devs really didn\'t care about players complaining about wipes there would have been tons before now.
The devs wouldn\'t be human if they weren\'t influenced by other peoples opinions.
And it would be ridiculous to believe they ignored all complaints completely. It may not cause them to delay a planned wipe but it would make them think twice about having on.
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Player whining has nothing to do with anything here. We\'ll wipe after the new things messing things up are fixed. New ones just keep popping up, and we never got around to it. ;) Hopefully we\'ll get all these things fixed sometime soon so we can get this wipe done, and fix the issues caused by the leftover junk in the DB.
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Eh, I\'m happy, I got away with a bold and italic ridiculous. I still believe that it would affect them, just not officialy or noticably :P
I can even point out that there was that time when somebody wanted to ban all AOL people. That never happened and I am guessing it was because of the AOL using PSers :P
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I also notice alot of the \"whining\" we are talking about comes from the newbies. Once you experiance more than a few wipes and some big changes, the \"Regulars\" as I like to call them enjoy the new changes to be had in planeshift. Where as the newbies complain because they just don\'t know any better. They do not realise that its actually refreashing to have .....
As for the trias ... not all characters that have a mass amounts of trias just sit on it. It is creating great roleplaying. For example I have seen people pay others well to go and pick up potions from the arena and bring it back to the person who hired them. This provides an income for the newbies so it isn\'t all about hack and slash. It is providing roleplay. It also makes auction time with /10 weapons fun too. The newbies cannot afford to go head to head with the ones who have the trias and I am personally grateful that is the case. It isn\'t realistic for a newbie to be able to buy such a fine sword. Though it would be darn exciting to be a newbie and loot one. Then there would be a desision for the newbie to make. Do I sell the sword and become rich or do I keep it for myself? There are lots of ways to look at this in a positive light and we all know the wipe is coming sooner or later. So make the best of it ....
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I made a large post in another thread about this issue. There does need to be a wipe. I\'ve been through my share of them, i really don\'t mind at all.
However...
Of course, i think it would be a huge waste if we wiped anything without fixing as many of the current bugs as possible. I think the Devs will work out the best prices for everything, and the best amount of loot, xp per hunt etc.. They\'ve dealt with this stuff before. For example... when the uber weapons were implemented, instantly everyone was in the arena getting their huge loots and making their millions. It was chaotic, distracting, and a bit distasteful, but eventually, it was resolved with the weapon wipe.
My point is, don\'t let it ruin your experience. Don\'t participate in the rush if you don\'t want to [I tried it out, as it is my duty as a tester :) ] but a large amount of people are. Some for the trias, others for the experience so when other forms of crafting are implemented they will have the knowledge needed. But don\'t let it completely affect your experience. Spend the next while in the tavern if you must.. I\'ll be there..
Easton
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Originally posted by Easton
For example... when the uber weapons were implemented, instantly everyone was in the arena getting their huge loots and making their millions. It was chaotic, distracting, and a bit distasteful, but eventually, it was resolved with the weapon wipe.
That\'s not the way it happened at all!
First, the mercenary was the only one that dropped the new weapons, and it only dropped axes. There were usually six to eight people there. The problems started happening when a group of five players decided to band together and prevent anyone else from attacking the mercenary. Game Masters were called in numerous times, and eventually they were stopped.
But not everyone was in the arena, and it wasn\'t chaotic or distracting. And the weapon wipe wasn\'t for those weapons.
Then they had fire broadswords added to the game, then the rest followed, and things were interesting for a while. Such weapons sold for 20,000 trias each, then 15, then 10, then 8, and it kept going down.
Then there was the gold falchion bug with rats, and people made a lot of money at that point. I think that was when the big character wipe happened, but I could be mistaken.
The inventory wipe happened much later because of a bugged quest which gave a weapon with a insanely high slash. I\'ve been told that the slash was upwards of one million, but I never took advantage of the exploit so I don\'t know from personal experience. They didn\'t wipe trias however because they didn\'t want to punish characters that didn\'t exploit the bug. The did not wipe inventories just to get rid of fire, dark, and frosty weapons however.
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Then there was the gold falchion bug with rats, and people made a lot of money at that point. I think that was when the big character wipe happened, but I could be mistaken.
I started playing, well created my account, one day after the big character wipe happened. When the server came up a few days later, thats when I was able to actually start playing. First thing I decided to kill wasa rat and it gave me 2 goldies. So yes, you are right. :)
And even though it has been said already, wipes without a reason are pointless and the devs know this. There won\'t be a wipe unless the devs fix the issue the wipe is for, and then they will wipe to start afresh and see how their changes work out. Thats whole reason behind a wipe, the devs change something dramatic, and to see how the game plays out under the new rules, they wipe to get rid all of things related to the old so it doesn\'t interfere with seeing how the new changes will effect the game.
While some may argue that there is a need for ulber characters for testing those things at higher levels. Yes I agree, but an ulber character gained through the old way before the changes made during the wipe due to the old rules, does not work when testing the new changes. The only true way to truely test the changes is to regain those stats under the new system. Hence, when major rule changes happen, a full wipe takes place. If thats a change to the leveling system of characters, then its a character wipe, if its to the loot given, then its a item wipe, etc, etc. At least, thats how I always looked at what wiping was all about.
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Originally posted by Waylander
I can even point out that there was that time when somebody wanted to ban all AOL people. That never happened and I am guessing it was because of the AOL using PSers :P
... um... no. Actually, it was quite the opposite.
You probably overheard Cadoras\' dumb joke he keeps going on about. A while ago, I created a new ban system which uses host masks (similar to the system IRC uses). I discovered that AOL has a fairly crappy host name system, and everyone is on the same host mask. Thus, a ban to one banned all. It was worked around, though we\'re not using this exact system anymore due to a flaw in the c++ host name fetching code that isn\'t worth working around in a primarily UDP application. Anyways, that\'s all besides the point. A remark was made something to the effect of \"who cares? we might as well just ban them all\". :P Cadoras still tends to greet me as \"still trying to ban AOL users?\". It\'s getting old now, but he still keeps it up. ;)
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And I...he always will!
*runs away and hides*
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Sorry for the lil rant, was just a bit bummed about losing my originality.
Thanks for the idea though Kary ... gold rush it is! :D
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I understand this is an ALPHA, and there will eventually be a wipe, and that is fine. I just think it stinks that after developing a character and putting a lot of time and effort into developing the story behind them (characters story changes and developes as its skills do), it gets set back to ground zero. I dont mind the money or the weapons, but when you put time in to developing an RPG character for over a year and a half and its whole skill set gets reset it stinks. I always liked best helping other characters develop their characters and help them to do stuff they cant do when they are new, you can build a lot of good RPG friendships that way. I know I have and have been helped a lot as well. It\'s not as if there is really a PVP faction where a lvl8 has to defend off a lvl15 or such, there really isn\'t any PVP at all unles you want it to. I know lots of RPG\'s where people were hoodwinked by another lower level person only to be mugged by a group and lost all of their stuff, which is one of the reasons I liked PlaneShift because it relied almost totally on an RPG environment. Anyway, in closing the people who say it doesn\'t matter about skill level or think there should be a wipe, should worry more about themselves than what somewhat else has or is. I understand some of these things happened because or exploits or errors, what game doesnt have errors, and I understand they need to be corrected. To me it does matter when I work to develop a characters identity and it does get wiped back to nothing.
/end rant
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Originally posted by Waylander
Meh, it\'s not information, it\'s common sense. If the Devs really didn\'t care about players complaining about wipes there would have been tons before now.
The devs wouldn\'t be human if they weren\'t influenced by other peoples opinions.
And it would be ridiculous to believe they ignored all complaints completely. It may not cause them to delay a planned wipe but it would make them think twice about having on.
pfft, just be glad I don\'t have database access >:|
And we\'ve told people about 100000 times that we\'ll probably wipe things like skills/stats in future, so I don\'t see that people can really complain. :P
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here\'s an easy sollution, cut one zero from both prices weapons and ores melted or otherwise
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Zelfuro Mirageon: Your character isn\'t your stats. It\'s how you relate to others and how others remember you.
Edit: Ok, it\'s now apparent to me that platinum is overvalued. Just look at this screen shot:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/_zanz/shot234.jpg
edit times two: Yes, my character has a lot of money. I sold my mug for 2 million trias after the inventory wipe and before the new brado quest, and I still have most of it left.
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Zanzibar:
Your characters identity evolves as does its stats, they are part of the same evolution. If your character remained and stayed the same and was only based on what people thought about you there would be no need for any skills at all, lets face it skills and even some pvp\'ing are part of RPGing. I understand Planeshift is trying to focus primarily on the RPG aspect, but Ive been RPG\'ing for about 20 years and it is and had always been part of it. If skills or HP, Stamina etc. were never a part of it there would be need at all for enemies, arena, etc. My point being is that the people who say people are \"whining\" because of the wipe shouldn\'t care what anyone else has. If skills or anything doesnt matter to them they wouldnt need or want a wipe. They are in fact the one who are \"whining\". It\'s anti-logical. Lastly, if your characters personality and others aspects never changed, it would be dull, you could create his whole life cycle when you signed up. I believe (and this is going to come as a big surprise to some) that people have other opinions than some seen to want to dictate around here. I\'d also be willing to wager that most people that put 2 or more hours in a day for any amount of time do care about their skills and the time they dedicated to their characters.
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If you spend all your time levellin up, then you might as well be playing freecell.
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Sitting all day and leveling up has nothing to do what I said. There will always be people that do that, and look for ways to do it, even by hacking into a CRPG. These are the people I stay away from. I just dont see why people would even care about them in Planeshift as them leveling up doesnt effect anyone in anyway. I dont care how much money anyone has, or what weapons they have. By your definition you may as well just go to an RPG chatroom. Experience is a basic staple of an RPG and earning experience points as the game progresses. I understand that Role-playing games are typically more collaborative and social than competitive, but to say that skills don\'t matter is completely disingenuous.
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Levelling up skills makes a difference and I agree that they\'re good. But everyone going back to square one isn\'t such a big deal. There are tonnes of maxed out characters which don\'t make a splash, and there are characters which aren\'t levelled at all that people respect and even fear. Everyone will loose their skills -- the experienced players will concentrate on the skills they consider the most useful, and they\'ll do it in extremely effecient ways. New players will lag behind. Stratification will happen. If you\'re worried about being better than other people again, it will just happen. But who your character is won\'t be lost just because you lose your stats.
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I agree and understand where you are coming from. There are some characters that are respected not based on WHAT they are but for WHO they are, and that\'s fantastic. There is also people who are respected by WHAT they are and not WHO they are. I hope there are always villains and good people, to me that\'s what makes RPG\'in fun, to others maybe not. One thing Ive always enjoyed doing is hanging near Harnquist and helping others figure out stuff, that\'s not to say others might like to just go to the arena and challenge stuff. My only point is I dont see why others care what others have or do. It makes no difference to my character, but yes for me being able to craft a new guy something to help him, or being able to do stuff that you need to be a certain skill level to do is. I already stated I know they are going to be doing a wipe or whatever and thats cool too, but for people to say advancing as a character has nothing to do with what skills you can do and nothing to do with story development, TO ME is completely wrong and I can\'t agree with it no matter who says it, but I can be agreeable disagreeing. =)
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I will to refer to the first post.
3000 for the platinum ingot? 6000 for molten platinum?
Some say too much, some say the price is fair considering the fact that mining is hard and was low profit job.
Look at this from different side, I suppose 1 molten platinum would be enough to make one longsword +additional costs and skill, so lets say you would need 8000 to buy a platinum longsword made by crafter. But of course it should be iron....
I don\'t know if i remeber right, but irn is 4 times cheaper than platinum, so our LS would be worth 2000 tria.
Isn\'t it too much?
I believe if people are complaining about mining not worth the efford, then we shouldn\'t make it more profitable, but look at hunting which is in fact spawncamping.
Its the real thing which is at the very base of an economy.
It is the biggest activity, because MMOG players likes to do it, but unfortunately to fix the economy a major changes mast be made in the area of hunting. Changes which people don\'t like - it is make it more realistic.
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what will ballance and dictate the value of ore\'s, molten ore\'s, ingots, crafted item pieces and crafted items, is when the crafting process becomes implemented at 100% of all the steps.
the average dificulty to mount a decent crafted item is what will make the prices for the items..
so if a high quality weapon is hard to mount good weapons will be expensive and will higher the prices for the raw materials(ores, molten and etc..) but the game will be flooded by alot of miners/crafters that want to just get alot of trias
if it will be easy it will do the oposite.. but the game will be flooded with high quality items.
right now the time comsumption on mining isnt very well balanced, around 30min of mining you can get from 5 to 20 ores aprox. depending what you are mining, skill and were you mine.
in this time you get around 2 Progress points(PP\'s), a miner to rank up mining skill at lvl 6 to 7 needs around 70+ PP\'s
a warrior can hunt a trepor for 10PP\'s in about 5sec\'s to 5min dependings on skills, a mercenaire for 1 PP\'s and have the chance to get apple/BS/Battle axe where wich if he gets a high quality sword he can sell it for alot more trias then a miner could eaven dream to imagine.
a /10 battle axe could go for thousands of trias
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Originally posted by minetus
what will ballance and dictate the value of ore\'s, molten ore\'s, ingots, crafted item pieces and crafted items, is when the crafting process becomes implemented at 100% of all the steps.
the average dificulty to mount a decent crafted item is what will make the prices for the items..
so if a high quality weapon is hard to mount good weapons will be expensive and will higher the prices for the raw materials(ores, molten and etc..) but the game will be flooded by alot of miners/crafters that want to just get alot of trias
if it will be easy it will do the oposite.. but the game will be flooded with high quality items.
right now the time comsumption on mining isnt very well balanced, around 30min of mining you can get from 5 to 20 ores aprox. depending what you are mining, skill and were you mine.
in this time you get around 2 Progress points(PP\'s), a miner to rank up mining skill at lvl 6 to 7 needs around 70+ PP\'s
a warrior can hunt a trepor for 10PP\'s in about 5sec\'s to 5min dependings on skills, a mercenaire for 1 PP\'s and have the chance to get apple/BS/Battle axe where wich if he gets a high quality sword he can sell it for alot more trias then a miner could eaven dream to imagine.
a /10 battle axe could go for thousands of trias
the issue is slightly different....if you have been around yesterday and today you would know a piece of molten ore sells for 1600 trias , and molten platinum for 6400 trias/piece....to the NPC`s...and no NPC will pay more then 3000 for any weapon...I made 60.000 trias in just over one hour today mining gold at 0 skill in mining...I`m sure you see what problems can be generated by millions of trias pushed in the game economy like this dayly...
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6400 trias for a molten platinum ? That\'s a lot.
According the guide, 250 trias is the one month salary for a farmer.
Working few hours without special skills, he has enough to live two years without doing anything. I\'m impatienly waiting for the imminent famine.
http://www.planeshift.it/guide/en/setting-economy.html#id2615111
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if the npc\'s are buying for those prices then indeed thats unbalaced..
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There already has been a heavy influx of trias introduced to the game. It has driven prices for Uber weps through the roof. It doesn\'t matter though, the economy adjusts with it. What was once worth 1000 trias is now worth 10,000 trias and so on. It will be a mute point once we are wiped anyways. I think it will be interesting to see what happens now.
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Hi.
Just want to say my opinion.
I think there is a generall problem in PS with accounts.
To much fake accounts.
I know that it can be hard to skill a character and today i lootet a silverweave but i still would give away my account for a proper working Planeshift.
So, if there will be a wipe, wipe all.
lets start from 0.
No problem for me.
With this post i want to encourage the devs to do that.
Greets
Ratten
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I\'ve been following this thread now for a little while and thought that I would throw my two cents in. A couple of people have made good points about a \"gold rush\" and the inevitable famine as farmers throw down their plows and take up mining picks. As a student of history it seems to me that this is exactly what would happen in real life. California in 1848, The Black Hills, Klondike, and several gold rush\'s in Australia all created a situation in which thousands of people dropped everything they had and ran out to \"strike it rich.\" However this did a couple of things. 1) It did completely throw off the economy- in California during the 1849 gold rush gold dust became a standard unit of currency and was used to purchase anything from jeans to picks, needless to say this was inflation on a massive scale. Entire fourtunees were used up outfitting oneself for the wild. 2) Word spread very fast. The first gold nugget was discovered at Sutters Mill in 1848... one year later thousands of miners were arriving, at a time with no phones, internet, radio or T.V. 3) In a situation were everyone was concerned about minning gold the people who really made the money were those who \"mined the miners\" - this of course is not going to happen in the game, nor is the inevitable inflation of prices for picks, weapons, armor etc.
Forgive me if this seems like a lecture, but I thought this provided a fascinating sociological study - how an online game can mirror real life events...
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Originally posted by Ratten
Hi.
Just want to say my opinion.
I think there is a generall problem in PS with accounts.
To much fake accounts.
I know that it can be hard to skill a character and today i lootet a silverweave but i still would give away my account for a proper working Planeshift.
So, if there will be a wipe, wipe all.
lets start from 0.
No problem for me.
With this post i want to encourage the devs to do that.
Greets
Ratten
no point in wiping till the problems are fixed, so the best to do is try to speak what you tink is wrong so it can be adjusted for better gameplay and only after things can be wiped ;)
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....that it would be no prob for me.
If a wipe is made, then please a wipe that cleans up all the mess so we have a proper working PS.
This is more inportant for me than any Character and the skills and items it posseses...
thats all what i wanted to say.
no..sorry...thats not all....
PLEASE do a complete wipe!!!!!
..that was what i wanted to say...just do it....the faster it comes the better it is..... :)
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It is odd that people here see the problems our current ore prices are giving the economy, yet they still exploit a currently unbalanced feature ...
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Ratten, you seem to have missed the point Minetus was making :) A wipe isn\'t going to happen until fixes are made, and to make fixes we have to first know all the problems and then find solutions for them, which is the bulk of the work. Telling us to wipe faster isn\'t going to help much ;)
Zan, it\'s not really an exploit, since it\'s available as a \"default\" for everyone. Moreover this is still a test, and I think pushing it to its limit and fracture everything (like the economy) will be a fascinating thing :D We so rarely get to just freely mess around and \"break the system\", so to speak, that seeing how far this all can go will be fun.
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Hi,
disclaimer: this thread has gone off topic from the first post/thread starter, but i\'d like to rant and add to the exisiting topics that have been brought up :P
Firstly what is a rogue doing running around with the best weapon in the land in his backpack. o.O. Wouldn\'t these weapons be made by the best/legendary swordmakers and already in the hands of legendary swordsmens who wouldn\'t let random knock-over rogues run off with them? More realistically i would like to see these weapons only availble to the expert swordsmakers with a skill requirement to weild them effectively. Also there should be a large chance that a swordsmaker create a \'silver short sword\' or mangled chunk of metal instead of the desired \'silverweave short sword\' - or whatever applies. perhaps 95 to 5?
about wipes. I understand that some people want to use planeshift as a finished product. It isn\'t. Not by a long way. If you\'ve had the chance to setup a high level character, enjoy it while it lasts. Each wipe is a good thing. Basically it is very hard to create a society/world that works. Economy, jobs, etc. Especially if we know very little about what it is based on. As well as that, i don\'t think players would want to fill some of the roles that a proper medieval society had, so how does that hole get filled? Basically the devs do something, if it doesn\'t work, they wipe, change and look at it again. Eventually, they\'ll know enough about what doesn\'t work to make a very nice game - one i\'m looking forward to.
And characters who make lots of money possibly though bugs like the molten platinum one can be a RP blessing in disguise. It\'s thanks to rich players that things like the \'Yliakum job agnecy\' and \'Proglin\'s Entertainment\' exist. I\'m planning on maybe having a treasure hunt or something with my excess tria. I could plan something big and fun a few weeks before a wipe if i got a tip off ...
As Verrliit puts it:
The Devs have invited us to play in their sandbox. The GMs keep us from spoiling each other\'s fun. Be respectful, and thank them often.
[/end long rag]
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Originally posted by Isra
the issue is slightly different....if you have been around yesterday and today you would know a piece of molten ore sells for 1600 trias , and molten platinum for 6400 trias/piece....to the NPC`s...and no NPC will pay more then 3000 for any weapon... I made 60.000 trias in just over one hour today mining gold at 0 skill in mining...I`m sure you see what problems can be generated by millions of trias pushed in the game economy like this dayly...
The only thing that shows me is that you took advantage of it too. If you\'re totally against it, then why bother mining the gold? If you just did it to experiment with the crafting system, then I apologize. However, if you didn\'t, you seem a bit hyprocritical. :-|
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.....and i have read the posts of this topic.
problems should be fixed before anything happens, no matter what.oki.
1 week later there will be another problem that has to be fixed .......so why wipe the money or superweapons or anything?
I see it that way....atm there are dozens of fake accounts mining for platinum....many of this accounts exist for more than 2 or 3 hours and wont be used after this mining action ever again. Some are good miners or highly skilled in another way or maybe they are not.....so , i dont see a platinum problem here or some economical ......
maybe i dont get the point...maybe i only see it from a different point of view.
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Originally posted by Ratten
1 week later there will be another problem that has to be fixed .......so why wipe the money or superweapons or anything?
We are hoping to reach that stage where there won\'t be any \"one week later\". We\'re going to wipe when we\'re absolutely sure that we won\'t have to do it again too soon, unless things mess up in really unpredictive ways. So when we are sure that we can find a nice balance, it\'ll be done. If we feel that more issues will still be coming up over and over, we\'ll wait until those issues will be included in the rebalance and fix.
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I would like to express my solidarity with the opinion expressed by holmj2674.
In some ways this game is, indeed, a social experiment in which the behaviour of the players is often more fascintating than the developments of the foundation of the game.
Whether a wipe happens or not, the game is still far, far from finished as a total environment and the developments arrive at a slow and careful pace. Also, as many have stated in this thread, the developers need to try things out to see what the response is... only later to make little adjustments and tweaks as need be. This should be obvious to everyone.
Seeing all of the players (myself included) swarming around the furnace and casting table to experiment with the new crafting abilities is a joy to behold. (...at long, long last... and my hat is off to the devs and programmers. Thank you!)
Also fun is seeing how the mining passion has swept the community. Well, sure, the prices are a bit out of whack for the moment, guys, but that doesn\'t take away from the fun of it all, really, does it!?
So much heated discussion about a \'virtual\' world and (stranger still) \'virtual\' misuse of \'virtual\' profits is another \"joy to behold\".
Whether or not I agree with the arguments - the pros and cons... and whether or not any discussions about misuse of profits, corruption of economy or whether a WIPE comes sooner or later - well, it is all rather a tempest in a teacup to me.
But, if you allow yourselves to unbend a bit... and sit back and laugh about it all, then you will begin to enjoy the very ZEN experience of the reality that exists as a melding of the game world, the player\'s in-game behaviour and the in-forum debates which - taken all together - rather prove what a powerful and passionate experiment in imagination and social behaviour the PS world is.
With a big grin and happy wave to all...
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can we spare the wipe till we know we are not going to do it again? Ever?
I mean at this stage alpha and all . . . how many more times will a player face this?
when a full finished release is made will that not still be subject to the addition of new features? and if so is it not possible that new exploits will emerge?
How many wipes does one face playing this game?
[yes as many as are needed I get it]
Is there any idea when it stops?
All arguments based on the idea that reputation etc stands are somewhat true but I agree with those that believe character advancement experience fighting prowess etc are part and parcel of what the character is as a whole. You can bet your bottom dollar that after a wipe I will be working hard to get my character back to where he or she was before a wipe because a part of authority stems from demonstrated ability.
If, for example, someone I do not know comes disrespectfully challenging my character to a duel I want to be able to put them in their place.
Yes after a wipe older players will retain an edge, they know the system better, but role playing alone sometimes does not combat senseless violence. Sometimes it is fitting that a loudmouth is beat down. Sometimes when they are they learn a new respect and think differently about role playing and what it means. Violence alone is not the limit of what i refer to. you can roleplay the greatest sword crafter in Yliakum for months or years then be wiped and have a new player out shine you in a week because you could not devote as much time to getting back to where you were.
I am sure My character will remain Xillix Queen of Fools through several iterations of the game but I do feel having something tangible to back up that reputation is essential
to game balance. I role play a great deal more than train now but I worked very hard to have a solid skill base to justify my role.
I would prefer for this not to be categorized as a \"player whine\"
I will roll with the punches as wipes are concerned, but I do not want to see a wipe-happy dev team. [I am not saying that I see one now this is more directed at the players]
Just as I do not think whining about a wipe can accomplish much I do not believe encouraging one does much either.
we bear, the economy bears, I want persistence to the persistent world.
[note want eventually, not demmand immediately]
One last note:
How much would you pay for a Holy Avenger if it were real? How much is Excalibur worth? Sightblinder? Thor\'s Hammer? The One Ring?
This is somewhat extreme as items of this nature do not yet exist.
So more to the point,
how much relative to the average income of a peasant would a fine weapon of Damascan steel be worth? Or in ancient Japan, the finest of samurai swords? How much would they cost relative to a peasants wages?
Damn str8 A LOT
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I agree with Syilph and others .. crying for a wipe won\'t solve the problem that some people use unbalanced behaviours or bugs to get money.
But this game is not only related to trias!!!!
You may have millions of trias .. that won\'t help you much on increasing any stat without the propper amount of progres points.
Don\'t get me wrong .. I\'m anyway not happy about the unballanced system sometimes but I will not cry for a wipe. Because it took me a long hard run to build up my player, do all that quests, get all those glyphs, skill up magic ways etc. which is sad to do taht all again. and there are other points more related as just being able to buy better swords as well as a real role player is happy if he can kill an Ulbernaut by his own instead of being a Ulberheart of someone else.
Anyhow I took some time to look at the real market price of gold 600$/ounze and platinum 1100$/ounze.
So addapting that to PS ($ != trias) we maybe use 60 trias for 1 gold ore and 100 trias for one platinum ore. I think that is a fair price (instead of 8 trias)
So I got the following changes:
.. anyone with DB server acces might do ..
SELECT stat_type, name, weight, base_sale_price, item_type FROM item_stats WHERE name LIKE \'%ore%\' OR name LIKE \'%bare%\' OR name LIKE \'%ingot%\';
to get all the related lines .. and change them alike
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'10.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Iron Ore\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'15.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Coper Ore\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'20.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Silver Ore\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'60.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Gold Ore\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'100.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Platinum Ore\';
so simple melting of 8 ores (short), 10 ores and 12 ores (long) will rise the price of around 10% wich is nice but not as extreme than it is now and still fair because you don\'t need any skill to melt them.
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'88.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Iron Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'132.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Coper Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'176.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Silver Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'528.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Gold Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'880.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Platinum Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'110.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Iron Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'165.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Coper Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'220.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Silver Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'660.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Gold Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'1100.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Platinum Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'132.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Iron Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'198.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Coper Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'264.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Silver Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'792.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Gold Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'1320.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Platinum Bar\';
then 10 crafted ores melted and hammered will give a wrought ingot with price rise of around 40%
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'154.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Iron Ingot\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'231.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Coper Ingot\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'308.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Silver Ingot\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'924.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Gold Ingot\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'1540.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Platinum Ingot\';
so a \'Iron Ingot\' is still less worth than a good sword (200 trias) as well as a single ore like platinum is not as high as a crafted item like a sword, but all items are worth enough to dig them ..
I know that balancing is something which is ment to be done anytime later in game .. but to pull those lines on the MySQL server will only takes a couple of minutes and might stop some people crying around :)
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Originally posted by Xillix Queen of Fools
can we spare the wipe till we know we are not going to do it again? Ever?
I\'m afraid \"not ever again\" just isn\'t an option considering our version of release, and how many features we are still lacking. Fighting/mining/crafting are now the big things, but these are just 2-3 activities you can really use skills for, out of everything we have planned. And lots is planned :)
I mean at this stage alpha and all . . . how many more times will a player face this?
It\'s not something anyone has an answer for, the dev team included. We can\'t predict whether we will get a certain balance right the first time when something is introduced, or if it will require several adjustments before the majority of the community and the team is satisfied. No one likes losing what they have worked hard to earn - and as stated, wipes won\'t happen until absolutely necessary. Meaning we will wait as long as we can, but they will happen. It\'s just inevitable. Wipes happen all the time in closed development with small groups of testers - the only difference with PlaneShift is that there are more people who think they are entitled to keep everything they earn, regardless of development.
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You know what they say Waylander, Assuming makes an Ass of U and Me. So dont put words into the devs mouths based on your misguided ideas.
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Going off of Miss K\'s last post. This may be a tad bit off topic but I think it fits in well enough fo rthe current tpoic of this thread.
I\'m not sure how many of you have tested, either alpha, beta, whetever before, and I can assume a many of the players of PS have not been involved in the testing of games before so I\'ll add a littel thing that was a weekly project for the last game I beta tested, Auto Assult. (Online MMORPG blah blah with vehicles, curreltly released out as a completed project I think.) Anyway, one a week, it was \"see how many times you can crash the server week. Driving a vehile off a cliff into a zone that wasn\'t supposed to have any vehicles in it was always fun. This was then reported to the devs and they said good job, don\'t do it again. Other times it was stress test of players, the devs would say everyone go make as many new characters of this certain type of model, etc, to see what the server would do. Needless to say, there were many wipes done before, while, and after all this testing was done to simplay clear out all that studd in the DB. Plus, for a closed project anyway, just before they hi final release, there is always a wipe so that when it goes public, eveyone starts out even, sorta. I normally only like to test and then move onto the next project, but some games I buy and try out for a bit after they go public.
Anyways, wipes are a neccesity of the testing process. They happen when they need to happen. Excuse my bad typing skills, currently been up for 24 hours so, I need a bit of sleep. Thanky.
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It always amazes me how these threads can wind off like this... :rolleyes:
Wipes are something you sign on for when you play on a test server. There are bugs that are the side-effects of other bugs that are lying around due to keeping old corrupted data. It needs to go, and as soon as we fix the other issues we have currently, it\'ll get wiped. If we ever get another pile of messed up stuff, we\'ll wipe again, and you\'ll just have to deal with it.
When it comes to the age old whine, simply put, if wiping everything a couple times a year completely ruins the game for you then don\'t play. Just loosing your stats and crap shouldn\'t kill all in-game activity. Either accept it or don\'t; I don\'t care. Either way, wipes will happen.
My best advice, is to just go with the flow. If things get wiped, thrilling... just keep playing. It\'s not like we\'re just wiping your character. You aren\'t lowered below anyone, so just continue on and it shouldn\'t be too drastic of a problem. If, however, you\'re playing to get some obscure points on some test server, then yeah, I guess your life is over.
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Originally posted by Isra
OMFG! 800 trias for one gold ore? 3000 for the platinum ingot? 6000 for molten platinum? well....if this is how things are suposed to be well....no coment there , if this is a bug....well if this goes for the rest of the day many .....MANY millions will flood the allready ruined game economy...
Welcome to pre-alpha. :p
Originally posted by Isra
this is more about the game it`s self , if so much cash hits the market at once , well....you`ll figure out the efects on the game and on any business attempt , and by business atempt I don`t mean \"Selling /10ss 100 millions\"
Hopefully -- this is probably going to become a pretty good question/task as PS matures -- steps will be taken to prevent the game economy from becoming like the auction system in FF11? This is an extreme example, I know.
Originally posted by Xillix Queen of Fools
how much relative to the average income of a peasant would a fine weapon of Damascan steel be worth? Or in ancient Japan, the finest of samurai swords? How much would they cost relative to a peasants wages?
I thought RL weaponry wasn\'t going to be put into PlaneShift? Am I wrong?
Originally posted by neko kyouran
Auto Assult.
. . .
Plus, for a closed project anyway, just before they hi final release, there is always a wipe so that when it goes public, eveyone starts out even, sorta.
Something like that happened on WoW too, but they divided the game play into \"pushes\" -- where they would get the kinks out of one race, and move on to the next. It wasn\'t fun starting over, but you could be assured of a bunch of new things to crash with.
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To be honest, I do think a wipe would suck. I\'ve accumulated a lot of rare and useful weapons. My character has good daggers, and a few other weapons to give to others in-game. I have a supply of diamonds and emeralds, gold rings, various minerals, and well over a thousand rubies. And while I don\'t have as much game-money as others in the game, I still have more than my character could ever use personally and it makes things easy. All of this let\'s me do other things too, like coordinate micro events and quests for new players. I see why an upcoming wipe is necessary to test game ballance and career paths, but I admit that I won\'t enjoy it.
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Originally posted by Aradia
Originally posted by Isra
the issue is slightly different....if you have been around yesterday and today you would know a piece of molten ore sells for 1600 trias , and molten platinum for 6400 trias/piece....to the NPC`s...and no NPC will pay more then 3000 for any weapon... I made 60.000 trias in just over one hour today mining gold at 0 skill in mining...I`m sure you see what problems can be generated by millions of trias pushed in the game economy like this dayly...
The only thing that shows me is that you took advantage of it too. If you\'re totally against it, then why bother mining the gold? If you just did it to experiment with the crafting system, then I apologize. However, if you didn\'t, you seem a bit hyprocritical. :-|
A bit? No , not at all Aradia ....compleatly and absolutely Hypocritical .....somewhat crazy aswell...sold my /8 shortsword for 40.000 ...and maybe you should find the lucky newbie who stumbled onto the 70 molten ore pieces I droped in the consumer valey...if any did whatsoever
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\"Newbies\" aren\'t usually the ones who pick things up. When I drop items, it\'s usually a few semi-regulars who run around and pick everything up using hot keys, while the new players are wondering what\'s going on. \"Huh? Why are there rubies and coins coming out of the ground? Who\'s are they, can I have one? Hey - where did they all go?\"
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A wipe will be useless is the recurrent money bugs still occurs (since 6 month I\'m here it\'s the 3rd I\'ve heard about). This one is particulary unpleasent because it\'s slow then monopolize a lot of people\'s attention and cut the roleplay.
Money issues could be fixed in a lot of ways (give money a weight, limit the money the NPC can spend, give a million to each newcommer...)
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If I had my way, we would just wipe everything on a monthly basis as a standard thing, so people wouldn\'t get too attached to their characters or too invested in how much time they had spent exploiting one thing or another. It would also inherently limit the effect of exploits and pricing anomalies to just that month. And it would remind people that this is an alpha release demo of the game--not the final game.
Unfortunately for me and fortunately for you, I rarely get my way. :-)
- Venge
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Originally posted by Vengeance
If I had my way, we would just wipe everything on a monthly basis as a standard thing, so people wouldn\'t get too attached to their characters or too invested in how much time they had spent exploiting one thing or another. It would also inherently limit the effect of exploits and pricing anomalies to just that month. And it would remind people that this is an alpha release demo of the game--not the final game.
Unfortunately for me and fortunately for you, I rarely get my way. :-)
- Venge
If my character was wiped on a monthly basis, I wouldn\'t bother doing anything except walking around and chatting with people. Basically, I\'d stop play testing the game.
Since this is a pre-alpha, then why is there all the concern about things being fair and equal? Wipe away to test for ballance issues after dramatic changes are made and refined, sure thing. But the reasoning behing wiping is to make things fair and ballanced between players, then players are told that they shouldn\'t worry about their stats. It seems like a contradiction.
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Sisilam_Takero we are going to put you to work if you keep posting SQL scripts. :)
(Stealing theme from holmj2674 and Kelden)
The advent of any new invention, especially the introduction of something as profound as manufacturing, will cause fundament changes to any society?s economy that is exposed to such a change.
Actually, the truth is that we turned on ore crafting while we were still fiddling with the prices. We could have waited another week and worked it out. But as I understand it, our philosophy is to take full advantage of the fact that you have all volunteered to help us test. And we would rather spend our time fixing bugs, writing more code, creating more settings, and designing more artwork then doing extensive testing.
We should have the new prices fairly well balanced in the next couple of days. In the mean time enjoy the interesting times.
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Originally posted by TomT
Sisilam_Takero we are going to put you to work if you keep posting SQL scripts. :)
Not to get of topic much here, but those updates statements bother me. Theres no begin tran, commit, etc., statements. Straight updates are dangerous. Especially when the table you\'re working with extends to well over 200,000,000 rows (such as the ones I deal with at work). One typo or a missing where cluase and you got major headaches. But I assume all the proper precations are taken into consideration right?
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Originally posted by TomT
Actually, the truth is that we turned on ore crafting while we were still fiddling with the prices. We could have waited another week and worked it out. But as I understand it, our philosophy is to take full advantage of the fact that you have all volunteered to help us test. And we would rather spend our time fixing bugs, writing more code, creating more settings, and designing more artwork then doing extensive testing.
We should have the new prices fairly well balanced in the next couple of days. In the mean time enjoy the interesting times.
I think I love you.