PlaneShift

Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Stephen McNaire on May 11, 2006, 07:29:40 am

Title: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Stephen McNaire on May 11, 2006, 07:29:40 am
Okay...my beef here is that I was doing an RP and in that RP I was casting a ward. So as a nice visual aid, I dropped one of my last Ruby Crystals...and almost immediately some jerk runs in and takes off with it. Of course I ran after and tried to get it back, but was completely ignored. It's not like I dropped it in the middle of nowhere; I dropped it in the middle of a trio huddle.
So I talked with some guys and here's what we came up with as a solution to this really irritating problem; Temporary ownership over a dropped item:

First there would either be a prompt when you drop an item ("Are you relinquishing ownership of this item?"), or perhaps there would be a command (/place). Either of these would allow you to set an item on the ground with it temporarily unable to be picked up by other players. In sense it is still in your inventory, but others can see it and perhaps do things like look at it, but may not pick it up and therefore transfer ownership.
To prevent random spaming you can only leave it out for X amount of time, and then it returns to your inventory. You may also only walk X distance away from it before you forfeit your right to it (Or it returns to you inventory). Perhaps to keep you from accidentally walking too far away, there would be a flashing icon to warn you that you are getting too far, it starts out slow, but gets faster the further you get away. Then perhapes a system message pops up asking you if you want to give up your item. Also, to protect against the game crashing and you losing your item, if you client crashes, the server simply returns the item to your inventory.
'Placed' items would also have a new button labeled 'release' or something, clicking this will que a prompt, clicking yes will release ownership of the item.

This would be wonderful because then people who are RPing could use items in their events without worrying about losing it. Or even just showing a special item to a group of others that you got from an event, like a ring, which can not normally be seen. This would also be useful in the future when things like personal books are implemented. That way you can share your writings with a group of friends, and still have your valuable book in the end.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Pale on May 11, 2006, 07:36:54 am
I like it!  :thumbup:

Perhaps extend it to when you are trading items between players, if by sheer bad luck, when handing over the item, the recepient can't hold any more, instead of falling to the ground and becoming free-game, it either falls and is still untouchable except by two players involved the trade, or it is returned to the originating player.

It'd probably be a nightmare to program though  ::)
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: neko kyouran on May 11, 2006, 07:47:48 am
First there would either be a prompt when you drop an item ("Are you relinquishing ownership of this item?"), or perhaps there would be a command (/place). Either of these would allow you to set an item on the ground with it temporarily unable to be picked up by other players. In sense it is still in your inventory, but others can see it and perhaps do things like look at it, but may not pick it up and therefore transfer ownership.
To prevent random spaming you can only leave it out for X amount of time, and then it returns to your inventory. You may also only walk X distance away from it before you forfeit your right to it (Or it returns to you inventory). Perhaps to keep you from accidentally walking too far away, there would be a flashing icon to warn you that you are getting too far, it starts out slow, but gets faster the further you get away. Then perhapes a system message pops up asking you if you want to give up your item. Also, to protect against the game crashing and you losing your item, if you client crashes, the server simply returns the item to your inventory.
'Placed' items would also have a new button labeled 'release' or something, clicking this will que a prompt, clicking yes will release ownership of the item.

Dropping an item, is the same as you throwing something on the ground, hense, it's fair game for anyone.  That aside, going off your /place idea.  It would work much better if you simply used '/place [name of object]'.  This would then place the item on the ground for people to see and you would still retain ownership.  This is much simpler than dropping something and having a popup box everytime asking you are you sure you want to drop that.  If you want to discard something, just drop it.  Dropped items are afterall, free game for anyone to pick up.  A /place command would differenciate between the two already, thus no pop up boxes, less annoying spam windows.  :)  

About the time and distance thing.  The person that placed the item would retain ownership for a certain time, but I would say no longer than 10-15 minutes, to prevent littering the lanscape with items no one can get rid of.  Also, logging out should effectively orphan that item and make it free game, crashes or not.  It would have to be that way since the game cannot tell if you log our or crash, it just simply knows if your client is still connected or not.  If you wanted to have it return to your inventory upon crash, that would have to be solved.  Distance,  you step too far away from your item, it effectively becomes fair play for any one walking by.  You can't leave cash lying around out in the open in RL and walk away and expect it to still be there once you return can you?

All, in all, I likes the idea.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: DaveG on May 11, 2006, 10:31:16 pm
It would just have to kick off a timer to go public after some interval.  However, that being said, you shouldn't drop stuff you're not willing to lose.  Frankly the problem at hand here is not that an idiot stole your stuff, but that you had no way to get it back or even affect them in any way.  The only way to correctly solve this issue is to have some limited open-PvP and some theiving stuff, which is a loooong ways off and would be rather hard to balance.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Under the moon on May 12, 2006, 02:21:24 am
I see you put the conversation to good use, McNaire. :)

Venge suggested that the /placed-displayed item never actually leave your inventory. It would still be 'in' your possessions until you released it. Perhaps a checkbox in your inventory for 'placed' items would be in order. If you walk away, your item could be picked up automatically. The same if you logout/crash.

Another thing I would recommend would be only a few items place-able per person. This would prevent spam-art, as well as be more realistic. A person can only keep an eye on so many things at once.

This display feature would work well with possible future crafts, such as laying out wares (swords, baskets...), arts (paintings, pots...), and writings. Then you would be able to see at a glance what folks are selling/showing, rather than having to read their description.

All in all, a good roleplaying aid. :)

(and doom on the person who stole your ruby right in the middle of our RP)
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Odilatinam on November 23, 2006, 01:51:46 am
you shouldn't drop stuff you're not willing to lose. 

Items drop when you place it into a window that doesn't accept the item.  The item should only drop if you drop it on the ground/game world.  If a window doesn't accept an item, it should return it to your inventory at least.  This is why dropping needs to be changed a little, it's always not intentional :(

My story is:  I finally got enough to get a pick, mine gold, and then sold my first haul.  While waiting for my mental stamina to regenerate, I bought glyphs.  While mining, I was playing around with glyphs trying to load it into my spellbook.  I tried to "drop" the air glyph onto the spellbook window, and it dropped to the floor.  I immediately saw it wasn't in my inventory, closed the two windows, right click on the glyph on the ground, and it had disappeared already, meaning someone else picked it up in the crowd of miners.  That was maybe 3 seconds or 4 seconds elapsed time.  After that I figured out there's a button for glyphs in the spellbook.

I realize it's a newbie mistake (I started today), and I shouldn't have been testing things out in a crowd, but still.  If a newbie like me didn't have my father as a miner, and had lost something that they were trying to figure out how to use and had just bought with their hard earned money from hours of rat killing, they wouldn't bounce back as quickly as me.  At least for me, it was maybe a 5 minute mistake at most.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: bilbous on November 23, 2006, 02:36:15 am
make yourself a macro for target next item and pickup bind them to adjacent keys, makes picking things up a lot easier and as a bonus lets you discover things hidden in the geometry.
THis is what they look like in my shortcutcommands.xml:
Code: [Select]
    <shortcut6 name="next item">/target next item</shortcut6>
    <shortcut7 name="pickup"><![CDATA[/pickup
]]></shortcut7>
although they don't look quite like that in the shortcut interface.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Idoru on November 23, 2006, 02:01:56 pm
Quote
meaning someone else picked it up in the crowd of miners.


You should just check your system window in the chat box and it would say who picked the item up (I think) Then you can just ask for it back ;)
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Odilatinam on November 24, 2006, 09:32:19 pm
I didn't see anything in the main window nor the system window.  It was strange, because I usually see people picking ores up in the main window.  In my disappointment, I first did an OOC [] in main, then tried to RP it, but finally said to myself it's just a few minutes loss.

The reason I decided to bump this thread was because something is needed for item dropping.  I don't necessarily agree with the OP about ownership.  The easiest suggestions would be:

1.  Dropping an item into a window is invalid and hence goes back to your inventory (and not to the floor like right now).  Make it so dropping onto the floor is how it drops onto the floor.
2.  A warning box to say that you are going to drop the item, that you can have the option never to see again.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Nyramael on November 25, 2006, 02:46:19 am
As a side note why not alloy people to be able to hold anything in their hand/s. I mean if it can fit in your inventory (in bag on your back) you should be strong enough to hold it in your arms. I know this can already by done with ores and stock. Then instead of dropping things on the ground where you can noobs and jerks run off with it, allow players to see what other people are holding i.e. right click on the item in their hands. Alternatively work that into the description window. This would also mean you can check out peoples weapons which you would be able to in real-life - differentiate between iron short sword (dangerous) and maybe a fire short sword (not so dangerous). Also means people can intimidate others without actually fighting for some fun RP.

As a side note this would also fix the un-able to equip armor to repair it like the repair weapon method :P

This would also solve the problem of things being littered and players loosing stuff on a crash.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: LARAGORN on November 25, 2006, 05:14:28 am
As a side note why not alloy people to be able to hold anything in their hand/s. I mean if it can fit in your inventory (in bag on your back) you should be strong enough to hold it in your arms. I know this can already by done with ores and stock. Then instead of dropping things on the ground where you can noobs and jerks run off with it, allow players to see what other people are holding i.e. right click on the item in their hands. Alternatively work that into the description window. This would also mean you can check out peoples weapons which you would be able to in real-life - differentiate between iron short sword (dangerous) and maybe a fire short sword (not so dangerous). Also means people can intimidate others without actually fighting for some fun RP.

As a side note this would also fix the un-able to equip armor to repair it like the repair weapon method :P

This would also solve the problem of things being littered and players loosing stuff on a crash.

I think this is a very good idea, anything in inventory should be able to be held in your hand.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Under the moon on January 28, 2007, 06:31:08 am
A bump on this thread, asking for any fresh ideas. The problem is still that too many people have no respect for things other people drop for the purpose of roleplaying aids. Some just grab all they can out of greed and a poor understanding of RP, such as the one dwarf who took -all- the food at a large party without saying a word. Or, they take things because they are evUl, and evUl people steal...right in front of many other people who can do nothing about it.

So, give us some more suggestions.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Nikodemus on January 28, 2007, 10:38:27 am
It was proposed already some time ago that we could have a /watch function, so that if you drop an item, you are near and somebody want to pick it up, a popup will appear that if he do so, a duel will start and he may be killed.
- If he yeld, he looses the item.
- guards may be called for help (when they will be capable)
- an item may be watched by multiple people, so the duel word doesnt sound proper anymore for a fight beatwen many people.
Yeah, i gues thats all i can remember from the previous thread.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Zan on January 28, 2007, 12:51:50 pm
I think that a good idea in this area would be that all items get a mark of ownership as soon as they are bought, traded or looted. So when you buy, trade with another player or loot a piece of equipment it is marked as your property by the game. Now if you drop it it remains your property but anyone can pick it up. When someone else picks your property up it becomes a stolen/illegal item. It remains marked as yours but is in the hands of another.

These illegal items can be found by NPC guards. The guards at the gates of cities should be able to perform routine searches on people in the future. Those searches are to find stolen items and when found the thief will recieve a penalty and lose their stolen gear. Of course there can be skills allowing thieves to avoid searches or mask/forge marks of ownership but there still should be a relatively high chance of being caught.

Marks of ownership should only appear on equipment items, not on raw resources, looted animal parts or consumable items. Only weapons, armor, tools and glyphs contain a mark of ownership. The rest is simply too abundant and temporary to be traced.

This idea will not only give players who have items stolen a chance of retrieving them with a little help of NPC guards but it will also add to the thrill of being a thief. Now a thief just picks something up and walks away, not very hard but when they have to stay out of the way of guards and cities with their stolen goods it's a whole different thing.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Under the moon on January 28, 2007, 07:29:58 pm
Hmmm. Good points there, Zan and Niko. I would also add onto that that stolen items could not be sold through... official channels, and therefor be worth less. Shady folks never pay full price.

But, still, it would be nice to have certain occations that the items/objects simply could not be taken.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Zan on January 28, 2007, 08:05:48 pm
Hmm well we could have a market area which is patrolled by city guards where a person can lay goods down in their stall and any thieves would be apprehended on the act and thrown out of the market place without whatever they wanted to steal. Those places would be theft-free.

And of course any well respecting NPC would not buy items that aren't the seller's property. Players will have to make up their own mind about it but even if they buy a stolen object they won't get through inspections with it.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Nikodemus on January 28, 2007, 08:39:44 pm
The only question is how people may be so sure something was stolle or not. I gues if you reported to guards that some unique item got stolen from you, then hey may try to to look for it, but most of the time they can't be sure if an item they are looking at got stolen or not. All items in PS are generally the same... but we know they are from IC point of viev different... so as been said, if an item isn't first better, but for example a piece of armor or a sword, then you may expect that if smeone was told about that item being stolen, will react properly.
But don't expect every merchant and guy in the town know instantly about every item being stolen. You may be traided a stolen item, not even knowing about it and then leaving a city, you will be lucky enough that guards check you and boom, you get suprised.
There is the problem with selling such items to NPC merchants. I think they just shouldn't buy them. That's the best solution, but of course not really realistic. But so isn't realistic a NPC buing every item you want him to buy.

UtM if you are thinking about putting an item, in the middle of nowhere, or rather in a certain place for quest purposes, i think there is nothing what you can do. It is supposed to be MMORPG, not just a RPG session with your friends. The best what may be done about this, is popup before picking such item up:

"You are picking up an item which is part of a quest.
If you take it, you will most likely screw the quest for people being part of it.
"
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Under the moon on January 29, 2007, 01:54:11 am
Good points. But also we must remember that this is a world of magic, and empathy is a skill/attribute that can be learned. It would not be hard to make the jump to some of the guards or players being empathic, and just -knowing- you know you have a stolen item...or perhaps that you did an illegal act just by feeling the thoughts in your head. I would guess that other items or glyphs could detect if an item was stolen. This would in effect, create 'safe shopping zones' and anything outsdie of that is buy at your own risk.

Magic....hmmm. That gives me a thought. Perhaps one could obtain a Glyph of Binding or such, that would not let anyone but themselves touch an item they cast the spell on, then put down. That gives a 'realistic' magic reason for no one being able to pick your stuff up. I have actually read several books that used such a thing, and no one could touch the object without the proper spell, or someone who did take something could not put it down, and could be tracked easily.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Seytra on February 09, 2007, 08:52:15 pm
I think that saying "whatever you drop is free game" is oversimplifying things, and not taking into account that dropping itself doesn't work realistically.
When IRL you drop something, then you are not only able to keep an eye on it, but you also can immediately spot others trying to take it, usually way before they actually take it. In PS, you can pickup items and noone knows until the item disappeared. IRL, you could intervene, like put a hand over it or just snatch the item before the other person can take it. All of this is not possible in PS, and somehow I doubt it's feasibility.
Therefore I prefer the workings that have been proposed, even though they are less realistic. I even think that it's less realistic to be robbed of something that you put on the ground than something that you carry in your bags, because your attention is focused on it.

Even more problems arise when things are meant to represent things that aren't there, like trees, for RP purposes.
As has been said, you should have a max of items you can have on the ground at any given time, they could become free game if you leave the area, and maybe after some time elapsed (though should be way longer than 15 minutes). If you try to put more items on the ground than the limit allows, then you should simply not be able to drop it. Also, the item should, as stated, remain in your inventory, including consuming weight and space there, since otherwise you could exploit this to carry more than you actually can.
This would also stop botted mining: if you cannot hold the next ore, then you are not allowed to continue mining, so you can at most bot until you filled your inventory, which isn't very long.
I am even inclined to believe that there should be no "drop and forfeit ownership" at all. Every item should go back into your inventory, and you need to get rid of it in a proper way if you really want to dump it.

Lastly, I think that picking up items from the ground in front of their owners is not at all "realistic stealing". It's an artifact of the game mechanics, nothing else.

Either this, or we need to actually create a realistic theft system, but that will have to use the skill system instead of empathic guards. If we had these empathic guards, then we also have anti-empathic thieves, so we're back to square 1.
Skill based (basic) approach:
Steal an item: effective pickpocketing skill vs. effective awareness (including pickpocketing and other similar factors of the owner).
Then you need to either remove any tracability from the item by yourself ("change origin" skill), or sell it to someone with that skill. When the prepared item is to be sold or inspected, the inspector tests "detect origin" vs. the quality of this item's origin (hidden attribute).
It is also possible to have a list of all origins and all attempts to modify them for each object (newer ones possibly blurring older ones), so that an inspection can turn up an owner other than the last it was stolen from.

This system could then be used for all kind of stealing, not just for items dropped by accident or for RP (both of which aren't "stealing", anyway).

Edit:
Not only NPCs would be performing this origin check, but PCs also. The player would then see a message in the inspection windoe indcating the result (with varying levels of confidence depending on all skills involved, age of the theft, distance to the original owner, connection to the owner, etc.). The player can then decide what to do about this info (ignore, use to haggle, turn the seller in, etc.).

Edit 2:
BTW, the idea of the automatic duel has the major problem that the community in PS, if one can call it that at all, doesn't work well enough for this. IOW, this will result in high-powered "thieves" stealing stuff in order to get a chance of doing some PK. And as we also know, these people will remain perfectly accepted by the "community". If anything, it will be declared as "way to RP evil" or at least "fair play, you shouldn't drop stuff, and if you are RPer and not PL, then bad for you".

I completely fail to see how picking up the decoration for a wedding party can even remotely be interpreted as "RPing evil" (or "RPing" at all, unless you're the janitor cleaning up after the party is done).
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Under the moon on February 10, 2007, 12:06:58 am
Windows Vista actually gave me an idea for what you just wrote.

/place <item> (not /drop, as that constitutes giving away ownership)

Someone see the item and tries to pick it up, but gets this message: "<item> is being watched by <owner>, who it likely belongs to. Picking it up may be seen as Thievery, and punished accordingly. Take it anyways? [Yes] [No]

If [Yes], then an awareness stat kicks in, setting the thieves skills against the owner's, and anyone facing the item in question. Facing the item is -key-, and reduces the chances of going undetected to near zero. If the theft is a success, and no one was aware of it, no messages are given. However, anyone who -did- see it gets this: "<thief’s name> is trying to take <owner>'s <item>!

Now for the Vista part. If the owner sees the theft, he gets a simple message: "<name> is trying to take your <item>. Allow? [yes] [no]  *chuckles*

Basic idea of a rough draft for the base deck of a penciled in system, but you get the point. All this would have to backed up by an actual system of Law, of course.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Nikodemus on February 10, 2007, 12:24:41 am
*chuckles*
You forgot to add:
"Are you sure you don't want to allow?" [yes] [no] [cancel]
 ;P
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: Seytra on February 10, 2007, 04:29:14 pm
Hmm, it's not surprising that Windows Vista gives ideas on a thieving system. It is one, after all.

Aaanyway, one might also have an "always allow / always ask / always deny" thieving preset in the options.
Facing the item is -key-, and reduces the chances of going undetected to near zero. If the theft is a success, and no one was aware of it, no messages are given. However, anyone who -did- see it gets this: "<thief’s name> is trying to take <owner>'s <item>!
Not sure if physically facing would work out well, even though it obviously would be realistic. The characters can't face things as easily as one can IRL, and one has to constantly readjust the position already, so it might become very tedious. Possibly the intent, but it could render the system unmanagable. Maybe it would be better to have the owner auto-watch the item placed, and anyone can optionally watch any item anywhere. There needs to be a limit to how many items can be watched at once, as well as the distance, and the line of sight plus size and awareness and such.
Additionally, there could be "causal watching" that everyone always uses on any object in their vincinity, but that has less chances of spotting theft (basically, you just happen to look at the right thing at the right time).

I'd still like to completely get rid of the /drop that forfeits ownership. If it, for once, actually is the intent, then it is done to cause trouble or be "funny" (the 10^2000000000000000000000000th Army of Dwarves, etc.).
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: drah on March 08, 2007, 02:53:13 am
While the temporary ownership thing might be awkward to implement... one thing mentioned here has stood out to me and shouldn't be difficult to implement at all...

A simple function to add a dialog box - just asking if you are sure you wish to drop something.

---

I've lost count of the number of times people have dropped things, someone else picks it up.. and an argument occurs.

I like the temp. ownership idea too but I expect that'd be more difficult to actually implement.
Title: Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
Post by: lordraleigh on March 08, 2007, 04:58:41 am
This sometimes happen in marriage events that aren't supported by GMs, when someone(usually a noob or leet) goes there and starts looting all the decoration from them.

The "c00l fr66 w64ps" must end.