PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Induane on May 11, 2006, 07:08:34 pm
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Browsing around my many rss news feeds, I noticed an article on slashdot, which linked to his article:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm
Basically, the NSA is attempting to make a database of every phone call made in the USA. It wasn't long ago that it came to light that there was some monitoring or evesdropping of international calls, but Bush said "one end of the communication must be outside the United States." Now it appears that the NSA is also keeping track of (although not listening to) every call we make.
I'm curious what people think about this. Personally I'm absolutely 100% totally against such a thing, especially something that was intentionally kept from the public eye. Also as far as I know, the NSA was never intended or given authority in pure domestic affairs - such as this is. Besides, how could this be considered an anti-terrorism plan? I'm not really sure.
The reason I really bring this up is to open/re-open the debate of freedom vs safety. It is a fact that any society with a government requires a certain level of freedom to be given up in order to create the society. The US constitution recogonized this, and included a bill of rights, to make sure that certain freedoms we not trampled on.
So I ask you all, how much freedom should we give up in the world we live in today, in the name of "safety"?
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I guess big brother is watching.
I think that is a violation of the bill of rights though, I mean after all, what happened to the right of privacy?
And just because its in the name of security doesn't excuse it. With this logic they could implement cameras on every doorstep.
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Personally I'm absolutely 100% totally against such a thing, especially something that was intentionally kept from the public eye.
??? I agree with you completely. I think that is just going to far. If this was to happen then people might as well change the anthem for the USA because it wouldn't be the land of the free anymore, now would it. No, you would all be treated like a babies .... come to think of it don't we put monitors in their bedrooms to monitor their sleeping? Anyway if you give an inch the government with take a mile. Privacy is important to all of us, and it is our right. When it comes to our homes and private lives, we should be in control of it. No one else..
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sounds like an oppurtunity for a VoIP server on the onion. I don't see the NSA monitoring that for some reason.
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didn't some prominant american once say something along the lines of "those who surrender freedom for security deserve neither." i think he signed some major and highly revered american document... can think exactly what it. sure somebody does.
there is one thing though... how many calls are made a day in the us? you've got to corelate that much data daily and then sort for trends over time... how much of this information will really only shed light after the fact?
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Anyway if you give an inch the government with take a mile.
That's nothing new, and its something conservatives have been saying for years. That which governs the best also governs the least.
didn't some prominant american once say something along the lines of "those who surrender freedom for security deserve neither." i think he signed some major and highly revered american document...
That was Benjamin Franklin, and yes he did. :)
I'm really concerned about this too. I don't care what your views on Bush are. I don't care what party you follow, I don't care what you believe, and I don't care what organizations you support. I don't care if you serve in the military or are flipping burgers. Any sane American should have noted this down as a red flag the moment he started talking about the issue -- I believe Bush has done an end run around the Constitution the likes of which we haven't seen.
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I see the Bush administration as a bunch of Nazis, so you can guess as to what my views of this are.
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I see the Bush administration as a bunch of Nazis, so you can guess as to what my views of this are.
Hey! That's an insult to the Nazis! :P
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I see the Bush administration as a bunch of Nazis, so you can guess as to what my views of this are.
Hey! That's an insult to the Nazis! :P
To my knowledge, the Bush administration hasn't murdered over 20 million Jews, communists, homosexuals, and immigrants.
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Now that the discussion has started I'll post my views I suppose. - I tried to keep them out of the first post, but well... you know me.
I am utterly appalled. Absolutely appalled. Here are the arguements in favor of this put forth by conservative talk show hosts Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh (<----Spelling?)
1.) Only people who are doing something wrong should worry.
-My Take: Weak arguement. That isn't the point. It shouldn't matter. People have a right to privacy. I should be able to call whomever I wish and not have a record of that phone call placed in a database. I recently read a story about a female college student who was stopped while boarding a plane. She was found to be carrying a condom filled tightly with white power. At the airport a quick test showed positive for cocaine and she was jailed. After 3 months the lab tests came back showing that it was nothing but pure powdered sugar. It doesn't take a genius to know that any real test wouldn't have shown positive for cocain. They jailed her because it looked suspicious. Incidents like this show that one doesn't have to be doing something wrong to get into trouble, it shows they can be in trouble for simply doing something UNUSAL.
2.) They are just phone numbers not names and addresses so it doesn't matter.
-My Take: A phone number can be used to get the name and address of anyone so its really an issue. Simple matter to even punch a number into google and get my name and address (yes - I tested it).
3.) The government hasn't ever abused the power before so don't worry.
-My Take: I don't want to give the government any powers that they could abuse without a significant ammount of oversight, consideration, and caution. Seriously - why give the goverment more leway into our lives? Does anyone really think that keeping track of MY phone calls makes the nation any safer? Supid.
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the case for point one using the example you sited is weak. if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, till it quacks,you're not sure if it is a duck, but you can assume it probably is a duck. she was stupid enough to pack sugar, like coke, as she knew coke as packed. what did she expect? what would you expect? it is odd that the first test came back positive for coke. but then that is what the rest of the system is for. only way she would have gotten a faster responce is have packed a big black round ball with a piece of sting sticking out of it. she was doing something unusual, unusual for carrying sugar, but usual for carrying coke.
not that i don't agree that the request was highly questionable, probably wrong. but even if the courts order the destruction of the files. the nsa will have a copy of the database. not that it would have solved the great rallying cry of the anerican security paranoid, the second world trade center attack. as the planning and all the details for it were done in person.
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the case for point one using the example you sited is weak. if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, till it quacks,you're not sure if it is a duck, but you can assume it probably is a duck. she was stupid enough to pack sugar, like coke, as she knew coke as packed. what did she expect? what would you expect? it is odd that the first test came back positive for coke. but then that is what the rest of the system is for. only way she would have gotten a faster responce is have packed a big black round ball with a piece of sting sticking out of it. she was doing something unusual, unusual for carrying sugar, but usual for carrying coke.
To a certain degree its true but actions like that break down one of the main tennants of our laws, which is that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Spending 3 months of your life in jail in a strange town waiting for a test to confirm that your condom of powder is just powdered sugar is absolutely beyond ridiculous.
Really action taken should fall into two categories:
Doing something that appears dangerous to others: I.E. fake gun, fake bomb, etc... need to be dealt with as they affect other people.
Doing something that appears illegal: Airport security isn't law enforcement. Their job is to make sure the airport is safe and that no one gets on a plane with something dangerous. The suspicious item should have been confiscated, and credentials checked and noted. After that if something turns up positive, contact should be made with the law enforcement of the persons residence.
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I think the 4th Amendment rights of US citizens are being looked after. Intelligence Oversight was one of Gen. Hayden's biggest priorities when he started his "let's clean up/make the NSA more friendly to the public" campaign.
Only two parts of it really confuse me.
1) Is the collection domestic to domestic, or is it still limited to domestic to international.
2) Why does the president seems to think he can authorize it when USSID 18, EO 12333, and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act all say that only the a) Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, b) Attorney General, and c) (in emergencies when reasonable evidence is shown) the Director of the NSA (DIRNSA) may authorize surveillance of US citizens (s/he still has to notify the Atty General afterwards).
The way I read it when I last had to read EO 12333, all domestic collection should be undertaken by the Federal Bureau of Investigations except for the provisions in part 2 of that same document. If a citizen has any major concerns they may wish to contact their congressman/rep on the Intelligence Oversight comittee. Make sure to mention EO 12333 and USSID 18 and to ask how they figure in with this new program.
Some good links to EO 12333 and USSID 18 are here: http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/eo12333.html, and here: cryptome.org/nsa-ussid18.htm. There is also an official version of USSID 18 on the library of congress' public site.
Most of the redacted parts of USSID 18 can be filled in by reading the other docs. Hope these links give you guys some food for thought.
EDIT: USSID 18 section 6.1 is probably the section that covers the phone number database. I'm not too worried about the gov't or employees in the Government misusing that list due to the massive and nasty penalties for disclosing/misusing intelligence info. Intel monkeys are more of the sort of people that would rather have too much info and have to throw 90% of it away than have too little and end up with 5000 people dead on a thursday morning.
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This goes across the border. The European Union has made a law which will result in a full registration of all phonenumbers dialed and e-mailaddresses used by it's citizins.
And here comes the snake... they've made an agreement which allows the USA to have a look at these information.
Here goes our privacy ... :thumbdown:
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It's wrong. That said, some of your comments are laughable if not disgusting.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/15/news/companies/verizon/index.htm
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1) Is the collection domestic to domestic, or is it still limited to domestic to international.
From every article I've read its a database of EVERY phone call made in the US. International AND domestic to domestic.
I don't want the government having a huge database of info on americans for anything. Even though they are using Linux and MySql to power it, I don't care (and I love seeing those tools used). The simple fact is I that I don't want people knowing who I called. Even if I'm not doing anything wrong, even if its part of a huge database where I get lost in the shuffle. I simply do not believe the government has a right to know that. Even if it did help prevent terrorism, I still don't want that. The problem is that if it takes such a sacrafice of freedoms to keep us safe from terrorism, then we're not really protecting freedom.
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I just found this thread http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/16/NSA.suit/index.html
To anyone who cares and lives within the US.. make sure you call and get someone to listen. It is outrageous what are government is getting away with. Recording all these phone calls doesnt seem very inteligent unless they are listening in on certain ones... haveing this database would not be very much help... it would truly be like finding a needle in a haystack... Either way, this opens the door for the government to start spying on us even if they are not now. We cannot give up our freedoms for security (and no I wont even stick any cliche line here either :P). This is America.. we are known for freedom, equality, and equal opportunity and we shouldnt change who we are because we may have been attacked by terrorists... I believe our government has fallen out of touch with the people of this nation.. and are not looking out for our best interests.
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Registering e-mails is useless. The bombing in Spain showed they didn't send e-mails. There was one account where messages were saved and not send (and thus not scanned by the authorities).
Big brother is coming, and a lot quicker then everyone realises.
They misuse everyone's fear for terrorism to do things they couldn't do 10 years ago.
Fear will break down freedom as we know it.
And this thing isn't just in the USA only.
Since Europe isn't on their own feet but just listening to the big USA, we get the same problems here too :'(
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i'm sure it will be gone in 2008....when bush is finnaly gone......but if it does end...i mean...what is left of the U.S. it was made for freedom...and we deserve it if we are legal U.S. citizens.... ...so yeah...if it doesn't stop...well...there are also riots and revolutions :P
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Thats what scares me. To fix the nation might take drastic measures, and I think the US might be beyond the times of revolutions. Hopefully I'm wrong and its not too late.
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Take a look at this. http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicechelon.htm
The truth can be found in the strangest places.
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Echelon is a fact, which many don't know about and many deny :(