PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: operand on May 28, 2006, 04:13:42 pm
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Hello, all. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with the concept of transhumanity. Most people, mainly young people who are technophiles, have transhumanist beliefs but aren't aware of that. Perhaps there are some transhumanists on this board. If not, get informed, and tell me what you think. I am following this movement for some time and am interessted in your opinions.
Here are some links:
The world transhumanist association: www.transhumanism.org
Wikipedia entry on human enchancement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_enhancement_technologies
Incipient Posthuman website: www.incipientposthuman.com
the Better humans website: www.betterhumans.com
Ray Kurzweil website with many articles to read: www.kurzweilai.net
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Yeah, I've been aware of things like this happening. I know that there's this professor in nottingham (I think it's nottingham) university who's really into artificial human enhancement. He has all kinds of cool implants. Personally, if it can be done and I need it, then I see no problems with it.
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Are you talking about Kevin Warwick? He's a professor from England who's had a few chips implanted in his arm. Another well-known "cyborg" professor is Steve Mann. He's working on wearable computers and has a really neat eye display called EyeTap (check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyetap). Augmented reality thanks to such devices is here, the next step is full virtual reality; meaning we can have PlaneShift downloaded directly into our brains :D.
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Those things are unavoidable IMO. Whether it will be legal or not, whether it will be considered moral or not, people will use technology to enchance their abilities. I think it is only matter of time. I don't know, if I will be still alive when those technologies will become part of everyday life, in any case I have nothing against it (even if it won't be used only for good).
Would I make use of new possibilities ? It's hard to say. Depends on risk level, depends on my needs, depends on benefits, depends on ... price (yes, money, as always, are important :(). Curently I don't feel any need to apply artificial improvements to my body and mind, however the number of informations to process is bigger and bigger... world is changing so fast, time is shrinking. At some point even most advaced cell phone may be not enough to stay connected to the rest of society ;).
And I like gadgets, like many other people ;)
On the other hand - why am I playing game, which allows me to transfer to medieval world ? Is it a yearning for for pure, imperfect humanity ?
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Hmm, interesting statement. In my opinion we aren't playing medieval games because we long for such a past (people also play futuristic games and games that take place in the present). Instead we are willing to
transfer our existance in other worlds thus forgetting the real one. It has always been the case- people have always read books, watched plays, listened to music...
Also, you mentioned money, the goal of transhumanism is to ensure that the technology is available to everyone, everywhere and to prevent it's misuse.
You don't feel the need today to improve yourself? You don't want to be smarter, healthier (physically and mentally), more powerful?
Sure, most people today don't feel the urge to be enchanced (although there is quite alot of plastic surgery going on), but in the future it will most probably change since everyone will be "upgrading" themselves.
Just my view...
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Why in the principle I can't see anything bad about it, its like every other technologie...
Of course you have to talk about the boundaries of this stuff, but in general...
But in the Wikipedia artikel antidepressants are also listed as enhancements... well this is kind of strange and shows that the definition is quite unclear. If antidepressants count, then nearly every medicin should count...
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I'm absolutely fascinated by this topic :} Thanks for bringing it up, and posting those links.
I think it's a world I would dive into at full speed.
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Though I think that type of thing should be legal (as long as it's voluntary and the risks are known), I would never be involved with it personally. I just don't believe in it...I'm even cautious about taking any medicine. Basically anything that can force me to rely on it, I'm against. It seems to me it would be way too easy to lose your control over these things. Though I guess I'm going to be in the far minority here..
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I think transhumanism is great, I wouldn't take it as far as say the Borg, but it has some nice applications. Only a few days ago in my country doctors performed an experimental operation onto a deaf person which made him hear again. They implanted a device right into his cerebral cortex and implanted a microphone onto his skull. This is great because n no medicine can replace an entire ear and it's nerve.
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Though I think that type of thing should be legal (as long as it's voluntary and the risks are known), I would never be involved with it personally. I just don't believe in it...I'm even cautious about taking any medicine. Basically anything that can force me to rely on it, I'm against. It seems to me it would be way too easy to lose your control over these things. Though I guess I'm going to be in the far minority here..
Actually, I think you're going to be in the majority here. I myself agree fullheartily, mainly for the fact that most people rely on medicine too much nowadays. They don't see the side effects as something dangrous or important, when they should be. People use medicine to fix things that can be cured with hard work, and they also use medicine to fix things I don't think should be fixed in my opinion.
Another reason why implants and modifications are big, is the applications into superhuman ability. I don't agree with any of it at all. I enjoy being natural, and my limitations make me who I am just as much as my abilities do. There's something very dangerous in dabbling with the human power.
I'm neither religious, nor extremely philosophical, but I know what isn't right. Frankly, I don't think any of this is right.
But, I must say that I'm not stopping anyone. Just don't force it on me.
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I wouldn't take it as far as say the Borg,
Agreed. That's the bad side of technology. We need to use such things with restraint. Anything which enhances, prolongs life, prevents illness is good. Anything that takes away our humanity is bad.
People also need to remember that however much we improve ourselves using technology, our intellegence (and other attributes) will stay the same in comparison to other people who do the same things. People will never be equal. Some might argue that your intellegence would stay the same no matter what enhancment you did to yourself.
I would also like to lower the tone of the topic and say that some parts of me need no enhancement ;) ;) ;)
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Though I think that type of thing should be legal (as long as it's voluntary and the risks are known), I would never be involved with it personally. I just don't believe in it...I'm even cautious about taking any medicine. Basically anything that can force me to rely on it, I'm against. It seems to me it would be way too easy to lose your control over these things. Though I guess I'm going to be in the far minority here..
Actually, I think you're going to be in the majority here. I myself agree fullheartily, mainly for the fact that most people rely on medicine too much nowadays. They don't see the side effects as something dangrous or important, when they should be. People use medicine to fix things that can be cured with hard work, and they also use medicine to fix things I don't think should be fixed in my opinion.
Another reason why implants and modifications are big, is the applications into superhuman ability. I don't agree with any of it at all. I enjoy being natural, and my limitations make me who I am just as much as my abilities do. There's something very dangerous in dabbling with the human power.
I'm neither religious, nor extremely philosophical, but I know what isn't right. Frankly, I don't think any of this is right.
But, I must say that I'm not stopping anyone. Just don't force it on me.
I dont fully agree with you.. Currently the bigger gun you got the stronger you are,, iran soon got atomic bombs,, but i wont do anything to myself to make me stronger in any way unless it is higly neccesary
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I dont fully agree with you.. Currently the bigger gun you got the stronger you are,, iran soon got atomic bombs,, but i wont do anything to myself to make me stronger in any way unless it is higly neccesary
I don't understand how being stronger or winning has anything to do with morals. Don't expect any sort of argument from me, though, I feel this is the same as arguing religions.
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You don't feel the need today to improve yourself? You don't want to be smarter, healthier (physically and mentally), more powerful?
Yes, I want it, who doesn't ? But I'm sure, I know it, that I could achieve above goals without changing into transhuman. I could be stronger, faster, smarter, I could improve my memory and my senses using traditional methods (and I'm lucky because I'm healthy). However, "old-fashioned" training is rather slow, it requires a high determination and readiness for many self-deprivations. And here comes technology, which can fulfill your desires...without effort... It's tempting, isn't it ?
And about longing for primitive life - probably I would like to enhance some of my abilities, but I want to retain my imperfect perception:
- I want to listen to birds' songs, I want to listen as wind blows, I want to listen as raindrops knock the window, I don't want to analyze amplitude and frequency of air waves.
- I want to touch the leaves, I want to touch the skin, I want to feel the world around me, I don't want to analyze materials and their molecular structure.
- I want to have memories in my mind, which are associated with feelings, I don't want to store gigabytes of pictures and videos in my brain.
- I want to smell flowers, I want to smell soil, I want to taste water, I don't want to analyze their chemical ingredients
- I want to feel the warm of sunrays, I want to look at all those colors around, I don't want to analyze spectrum of electromagnetic waves.
I think now it is clear enough ;)
Karyuu, I'm quite surprised that You are so enthusiastic about this topic :o.
Karyuu, is it You ? What have You done to You ?! You have changed... ->
(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/322/alitawallpaper9zh.th.jpg) (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alitawallpaper9zh.jpg)
;)
If you like to get a prewiew, how the world filled with transhumans could look like, read the manga "Battle Angel Alita". Or watch "Ghost in the Shell" (2 movies and 2 tv series). Those worlds attract me, and at the same time I'm afraid of them...
As You can see, I'm undecided (but I sustain my words: it will be part of our lives some day, and I have no objections).
Wait. I lied a little.
I would like to replace my... teeth ;)
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I dont fully agree with you.. Currently the bigger gun you got the stronger you are,, iran soon got atomic bombs,, but i wont do anything to myself to make me stronger in any way unless it is higly neccesary
I don't understand how being stronger or winning has anything to do with morals. Don't expect any sort of argument from me, though, I feel this is the same as arguing religions.
I mean making improvement on people making them sing better, jump higher, run faster ect. ect.
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Karyuu, I'm quite surprised that You are so enthusiastic about this topic :o.
Sci-fi/tech junkie :D Reading Dan Simmons did that. His portrayal of the future with its TechnoCore, farcasters, dataspheres, is as absolutely delicious as it is mindnumbingly frightening, but it's something I think I would embrace more than distrust. I don't consider using technology to "change" humankind cheating any more than using medicine to "cheat" disease, or death. People already have implants that allow them to live longer than they would otherwise, do things they couldn't do otherwise, etc. It's just taking it a step further, and I think the possibilities are worth seeing, and experiencing.
Personally I can't wait to walk somewhere with a chip stuck someplace, take a deep breath, and go, "Ahhh, the bandwidth is good here!" ;)
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Karyuu, I'm quite surprised that You are so enthusiastic about this topic :o.
Personally I can't wait to walk somewhere with a chip stuck someplace, take a deep breath, and go, "Ahhh, the bandwidth is good here!" ;)
At that time we will all be small roboflies ::)
(http://www.kentleech.com/robofly.jpg)
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When the vacuum cleaner was invented, it became popular in no time. It turned out that the vacuum cleaner didn’t safe time however, because the social standards about how clean a floor should be raised.
I think that goes for body enhancements to the same extend. Where’s the fun if everybody can jump twice as high as is possible now? It will be funny for a week, granted, but not much more. Things like body implants sound too radical to be done for temporal coolness.
Even though I think ‘human enhancement technologies’ can be pretty dangerous, I don’t think it should be forbidden. People should be free to choose what they want with their lives and their bodies. However, the danger is that, in time, it gets impossible for people -not- to choose for body implants.
Right now, there are clubs where you can buy a VIP-chip and have it injected in your arm. click (http://www.infowars.com/print/bb/baja_netherlands.htm) You can pay your drinks with the chip, and it also allows you to get to VIP rooms, where only people with implanted chips have access to. Not too much a problem right now, but what if nearly all clubs became 'chip only' or gave a lucrative discount. And what if shops did the same? It's not that unlikely: payment is faster and easier with an implanted chip and maybe even safer.
A little scenario: 2060. People can have robot arms which are coordinated nearly as good as normal arms and are much stronger. 95 % of the people has two or more additional robot arms, because nearly all tasks can be done more efficient that way. Some jobs require having them, not having them is seen as a handicap. It turns out robo implant arms are best accepted by the brains at a young age. Having them installed at a later age also gives more medical complications. The result: Parents will have the robo arms installed when their children have the right age, to minimize the risks. At that time, choice is gone.
Having said that, it's way too early for legislation or policy about this topic, as it's impossible to predict in which direction it will develop. It will be fun to watch the possibilities grow. But on the long run, technologies like these can have a huge influence on the society. It's important to be aware of that, so we can decide what we want, and how to organise things so that everybody stays free to accept it or not.
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Some people here are missing the point. Being a transhumanist doesn't mean to be able to jump higher than other people or to have
shopping chips in your arms. A transhumanist is someone who advocates the use of technology for human improvement.
And trust me, by improvement nobody means being able to jump higher. Through technology (nano, genetic and A.I.) we will be able,
if all goes ok, to manipulate (speed up, enchance qualitatively) our brains, manifacture stronger bodies for ourselves so we wont burn from space radiation while exploring, become resistant to all diseases etc...
Ofcourse, I don't want to loose my humanity either but I don't see how improving myself ('cause humans aren't perfect) would make me do so. Don't forget that we're constantly evolving, so what's called humanity today isn't the same as humanity a thousand years ago
and will not be the same humanity in a thousand (although things will change in a fifty to hundred years from now). Maybe we look the same as our medieval ancestors, but we lead radically different lives. Evolution speeds up- just like the expansion of the Universe and Moore's law. Soon it will be up to us to model our destiny and take the evolution in our own hands. Now, THAT is nature.
*edit*
And I forgot to mention: the beauty of transhumanism is that it advocates respect for those wishing to remain unenchanced unlike many neo-Luddites who promote hatred for those that are different.
(Karyuu I'm glad I got you interested. Make sure to read the Transhumanist FAQ on the www.transhumanism.org webpage)
Please avoid posting two or more successive posts before others have replied. Just edit your last post to add new information. Thanks! --Karyuu
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manifacture stronger bodies for ourselves so we wont burn from space radiation while exploring
(http://www.allyngibson.net/graphics/cybermen.jpg)
Skin of Metal and A body that will never age!
Just an example of what you are saying could get out of proportion.
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Look Watcher... future technology will allow us to build bodies that look the same as the ones we have today but profoundly improved. I doubt that we, as humans will take up such crude bodies such as on your picture. If you want an interesting read on human body changes and improvements check this article: http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0551.html
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Hooray for General Ludd!!
\\o// \\o// \\o// \\o// \\o//
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Did I hear mention of "the world's most dangerous idea"? Hitancrias has the right concept; we love to push ourselves to our limits, and if we use technology to extend those limits, it will be an easy break for a short time before we rediscover challenge, excitement that takes us to the brink of death, all that good stuff in life.
Remember, there are a lot of different approaches to enhancement, because as very complex beings, there is a lot that could be altered. There are alterations that are outrageously stupid and wrong, for instance The Guilt-Free Soldier (http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0304,baard,41331,1.html). Guilt is an important behavior regulator. Transhumanism is about extending our humanity, not detracting from it, and so the neural stuff is the danger zone. The Center for Cognitive Liberty (http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/) is a good place to go for that sort of thing, and in the AI department, the Singularity Institute (http://www.singinst.org/) may too become very significant.
Of course, most of us prefer mody modification, to jump higher, or to soar! To be the like the Ousters of Endymion, gliding on the solar winds, not destroying our ecosystem but extending it to other worlds, warming the cold vacuum of space itself...
Remember Clark's [first] Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." We have taken many steps towards becoming the Mages of Old. We can speak to each other instantly wherever we are [telepathy], we can level mountains, we can cure plague, we can create lightning.
If this technology isn't encouraged, it will be pushed underground, developed in the hands of questionable people. Anyone who has read their fantasy books knows some basic principles
1) There shouldn't be a [techno-magically] powerful elite (we should distribute the opportunity democratically)
2) As magic can be dangerous there should always be a place where it isn't allowed (Luddite haven)
3)Some magic is good, some is bad, and most depends on the person using it (serious regulation is necessary, psychological testing etc.)
...I could go on for hours, so I'll stop here. I run a club at my university that discusses all of these things and much more. We recently had James Hughes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hughes) speak on the current politics of Transhumanism (he is the Director of the World Transhumanist Association). It's nice to know we have a Buddhist leading this movement.
More websites for those interested, not all of which anyone will agree with:
http://www.changesurfer.com/
http://www.futurehi.net/
http://www.xeromag.com/extropy.html
http://www.cydaily.com/
http://www.betterhumans.com/
http://jetpress.org/
http://www.nickbostrom.com/
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Transhumanism: n.)
1. is the love child of the Heaven's Gate cult, and a nerdy hacker kid with too much time on his hands.
2. bears a resemblance to Scientology.
3. assumes that technology will overcome the human condition, something that thousands of years of philosophy, culture and civilization have NEVER been able to do.
This, as copied from the Encyclopedia of What-The-Heck-Is-This-Crap.
I consider myself a skeptic at best.
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StarsAndBars_1018, please do some reading before posting such comments.
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Transhumanism: n.)
1. is the love child of the Heaven's Gate cult, and a nerdy hacker kid with too much time on his hands.
2. bears a resemblance to Scientology.
3. assumes that technology will overcome the human condition, something that thousands of years of philosophy, culture and civilization have NEVER been able to do.
This, as copied from the Encyclopedia of What-The-Heck-Is-This-Crap.
I consider myself a skeptic at best.
That's a flame at best...
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The day people start looking like this...
(http://www.nimbacreations.com/Library/Cyborg%201%20big.jpg)
Is a day I no longer want to be alive
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What are you talking about, that's awesome xD
To be born human and die a cyborg <3
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Not a fan of technology. I'd much rather be in an actual forum like the romans than in front of a screen...
The only peice of technology I find necisarry is the plow..and shovel...maybe even axe. And a damn spell check. Necisarry? What the hell...
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An interesting discussion this is. Thinking about the pros and cons, I say, maybe. I think its a bit early to decide one way or the other about this. So I will keep an open mind until science advances to the point where more of these things are possible.
Also, anyone else read any of this and kept having pictures pop in your head of the show 'Ghost in the Shell'? Or maybe either of the movies? I guess I should find a link for those not fond of what GitS is.....here (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=910)
And if Karyuu gets to be a cyborg, I want to be a kitty. Now then, who's going to scratch behind my ears?
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Oh, seriously people, use some common sense. I'm talking here about WiseKran's comment (and picture). Do you really think that once we have advanced technology we will transform ourselves into something we DON'T like? I know your comment was meant to be rather poetic, but I have a much different vision of the future.
Yeah, and Robinmagus, you were joking, right?
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Do you really think that once we have advanced technology we will transform ourselves into something we DON'T like? I know your comment was meant to be rather poetic, but I have a much different vision of the future.
Do you really believe such things won't be practically forced upon you? For example, I'm not going to deny the usefulness of a cell phone, does that make me enjoy it any more? No...I hate the damn thing...talking on it, listening to people's ringtones (except mine), being interupted because it just HAS to be answered. But it's something I'm going to have to live with and constantly annoyed by for the rest of my life. It's more or less attached to my hip.
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An interesting discussion this is. Thinking about the pros and cons, I say, maybe. I think its a bit early to decide one way or the other about this. So I will keep an open mind until science advances to the point where more of these things are possible.
Also, anyone else read any of this and kept having pictures pop in your head of the show 'Ghost in the Shell'? Or maybe either of the movies? I guess I should find a link for those not fond of what GitS is.....here (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=910)
And if Karyuu gets to be a cyborg, I want to be a kitty. Now then, who's going to scratch behind my ears?
Guess that'll b eher fourth arm :sweatdrop:
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Kiern, I see what you're trying to say, but I you just have to go with the flow when it comes to stuff such as cell phones that become popular very fast. I find cell phones to be very useful and I think the majority's with me on this one although I agree with you that sometimes you just want to throw the damn thing away. I also think that future technologies such as wearable computers (cell phones are a form of wearable computers) will be less annoying and even more useful. We won't notice them yet they'll be constantly helping us do boring tasks...