PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gwinn Ravenn on May 30, 2006, 03:46:20 pm
-
Women Of Yliakum
It is unfortunate that many of us must contend with unwanted and insistent negative attention for our male counterparts. I for one have grown weary of it. It seems we can not go about our normal business without a proposition of some sort.
I propose We adopt a call for help system. A loose alliance among the good citizens of Yliakum. I suspect primarlary the women will be the driving force of the alliance. Yet all and any concerned citizens may wish to become involved. This alliance needs to be separate and apart from any political, personal or guild associations; in order to maximize the strength and effectiveness of this alliance.
The idea is simple. To inform all those we meet that all they need do in situations I have described it to “Shout” where they are and that they need help. Second all those in range of the shout come to the aid of the one being harassed. Help for these unfortunate situations should be given regardless of any other obligations or personal grudges. As cleaning up this problem benefits us all.
I thank everyone for taking the time to read this proposal. I hope that this emergency system or something like it can be implemented in the future as the problem seems to be getting worse.
-
I know that there are a few players who use a rude or even intrusive language. Even as a male player I have been asked things I don't want to tell in detail.
If you need help, in general you should
- create a petition reporting the character name and the abuse,
- use the command "/report charactername" to record the sentences they say.
Unfortunately,
- there are daytimes where GMs are rare, you might have to call them in IRC channels to log in,
- the "report" function only records 5 minutes after you invoked it, but often these people disappear quickly.
__
Still, everyone may have a different opinion about how much is "too much". Some female players enjoy playing along, and even against. Others seem to be already in a bad mood about being greeted... ;)
-
Women Of Yliakum
It is unfortunate that many of us must contend with unwanted and insistent negative attention for our male counterparts. I for one have grown weary of it. It seems we can not go about our normal business without a proposition of some sort.
I propose We adopt a call for help system. A loose alliance among the good citizens of Yliakum. I suspect primarlary the women will be the driving force of the alliance. Yet all and any concerned citizens may wish to become involved. This alliance needs to be separate and apart from any political, personal or guild associations; in order to maximize the strength and effectiveness of this alliance.
The idea is simple. To inform all those we meet that all they need do in situations I have described it to “Shout” where they are and that they need help. Second all those in range of the shout come to the aid of the one being harassed. Help for these unfortunate situations should be given regardless of any other obligations or personal grudges. As cleaning up this problem benefits us all.
I thank everyone for taking the time to read this proposal. I hope that this emergency system or something like it can be implemented in the future as the problem seems to be getting worse.
A few problems:
i) Sexual advances are covered under harassment, and therefor it's the duty of Game Masters to intervene and not the duty of other players.
ii) Would this organization be OOC or IC? If it's IC, then see (i). If it's OOC, then it shouldn't be in game and again see (i).
iii) How will you know who is an who isn't female? This is a violation of privacy, and further it's dangerous.
iv) How will you account for false accusations that arise from grudges? The possibilty for abuse is too great.
-
Your best bet with taking care of OOC harassment: do a /report, and notify a GM. Summer is right around the corner for many people, so that means we'll be able to be around more in-game :}
-
I see what you are trying to ask for Gwinn Ravenn but I am confused as to if it is in character or out.....
For OOC karyuu, LigH and zanzibar have pretty much suggested everything you could possibly do. I have gotten some pretty weird tells myself occ and just choose to ignore them, they normally go away. I haven't had a super huge problem with harassment.
If this is an IC organisation, then I think it could be an idea that might possibly work. Most of us belong to a guild and usually have the support of our guild, but what of the ones that don't. In this case to offer a safe haven for those who do not have a large group of friends or a guild to look out for them, they might benifit. Thing is to make it happen ... someone would need to do the work. Is that what you would be willing to do Gwinn?
-
It shouldn't be done IC because unwanted sexual advancements are classified as harassment.
-
But unwanted IC, or OOC? It always depends on the situation. I can imagine many an RP scenario where two people can play characters that conflict, but agreeing to it and having fun with it.
-
But unwanted IC, or OOC? It always depends on the situation. I can imagine many an RP scenario where two people can play characters that conflict, but agreeing to it and having fun with it.
I agree, if it's ic and your character seems to want help she should just shout "help help i am being harrased by a male" and i think that at least someone should come to help you :)
-
Just what exactely do you mean by proposition? If i meet up with a female in game i look for a chat, and nothing dirty about that chat just as i would with males. Since she is a female i may compliment her on her looks for instance, but in no way harass, However, on occasion if i even start talking to a female they already begin telling me to buzz off. I don't care about that, but if they start using this alliance thing in the same way as they snap off at you then imho it would ruin this game.
-
Asumming this system is in character .....
I think you are assuming that they will be abusing the system created (That is, if it is created). If your complimenting on her looks and being kind, there would be no reason for you to worry about this organisation bothering you. This .... I think was suggested so that the "alliance" could be there for females who might have someone saying and doing wrong .... to have her feel there is a support system (Doesn't have to be females either). If played right, I believe that these woman "characters" will come and get the female in distress and remover her from the situation. This system shouldn't be a reason to pick on someone, otherwise they would be just doing what they trying to prevent.
-
I understand how it works, however, its so easy to abuse in my opinion. A horde of players after you can really ruin your experience, and unfortunately there is no way for either player to offer complete proof, ( unless one of the two did a /report and the "abuse" takes place after that ) But since the goal seems to be to circumvent that options as the players who do this are gone before a report has effect they won't use that. It only really takes one griefer to get your character tainted as an abuser, and there is no system in place to prevent that from happening. Hence i don't think its a good idea. I mean if someone is "in distress" just let them shout out for help ! like Help RAPE !!! I'm ( location ) thats much more realistic and i'm sure that any player running into that will run away for his life. There are plenty of people around willing to come to the aid of someone. Me included. But creating an alliance with rules and all quickly starts to log players and before you know it you are on some sort of blacklist and got to recreate your character. It really only takes a couple of female characters to achieve that, especially if your character is "disliked" by a large portion of the community in the first place.
-
It only really takes one griefer to get your character tainted as an abuser, and there is no system in place to prevent that from happening... creating an alliance with rules and all quickly starts to log players and before you know it you are on some sort of blacklist and got to recreate your character. It really only takes a couple of female characters to achieve that, especially if your character is "disliked" by a large portion of the community in the first place.
Hmm, sounds familiar.:)
I think another danger is that it might mislead new players into thinking that sexual harassment is ok in-game.
-
I understand how it works, however, its so easy to abuse in my opinion.
:D I competely agree. It would take a very active person ... one to over see creating such a system and making sure it was running accordingly. Personally, I think this idea sounds like an unoffical guild really. I am not sure what this organisation would have for a foundation and goals in PS (Assuming it was IC), but I don't believe there is enough harassment in game to keep a group for this purpose together for long. You also bring up a good point with ......
I mean if someone is "in distress" just let them shout out for help ! like Help RAPE !!! I'm ( location ) thats much more realistic and i'm sure that any player running into that will run away for his life. There are plenty of people around willing to come to the aid of someone.
Between your suggestion and others in this thread with the adivce to report harassment, there really is no point to this system as there are better measure's to take. A GM would have a much more progress than a horde of players. I agree that players would definitely come to the aid of a woman/man in need of help out of an uncomfortable situation. I find and have seen that if players take it into their hands it just turns into harassing on the harrasser.
It really only takes a couple of female characters to achieve that, especially if your character is "disliked" by a large portion of the community in the first place.
True enough Sardit though I am afraid, it isn't just females that could cause trouble to a male who maybe overly friendly. I think there are times as well when a male in the game has been harrassed on occasion.
I believe this organisation could possibly work, but would take alot of thought, organisation and time. , I am not sure how long it would last or how much interest it would hold if someone were to make it happen. That remains to be seen I suppose. :)
-
*laughs is ass off*
This is a video game, there is rules, if someone don't respect the play nice policy, just ban him. If someone is playing the macho-man and harrass women ingame in a IC way, I think he got a problem irl.
You already have an ONU organisation (the Scoy), now a Women of Yliakum, and soon greenpeace ? Why not vote for a president also ?
-
*laughs is ass off*
This is a video game, there is rules, if someone don't respect the play nice policy, just ban him. If someone is playing the macho-man and harrass women ingame in a IC way, I think he got a problem irl.
You already have an ONU organisation (the Scoy), now a Women of Yliakum, and soon greenpeace ? Why not vote for a president also ?
I'm not sure what you're adding to the conversation.
-
*laughs is ass off*
This is a video game, there is rules, if someone don't respect the play nice policy, just ban him. If someone is playing the macho-man and harrass women ingame in a IC way, I think he got a problem irl.
You already have an ONU organisation (the Scoy), now a Women of Yliakum, and soon greenpeace ? Why not vote for a president also ?
I'm not sure what you're adding to the conversation.
he's talking about the settings of the yliakum world in sarcasm... (i think)
-
*laughs is ass off*
This is a video game, there is rules, if someone don't respect the play nice policy, just ban him. If someone is playing the macho-man and harrass women ingame in a IC way, I think he got a problem irl.
You already have an ONU organisation (the Scoy), now a Women of Yliakum, and soon greenpeace ? Why not vote for a president also ?
This maybe a video game but I think that over all the goal is to have a realistic world to some extent. I don't see anywhere that you pointed out how this was a good or bad idea. I only see you making fun of some of the things the community has dreamed up for organisations. That is a shame.
-
I personally don't see a lot of harassment based on player/character gender when I am in-game, whether OOC or IC. So I guess I too am not sure of how needed such an organization would be - it seems a really rare occurance. I wish we could hear more from the original poster, but it seems unlikely, if she hasn't responded in all this time.
I hope that this emergency system or something like it can be implemented in the future as the problem seems to be getting worse.
It's the "getting worse" part that I don't understand, overall.
-
I'd like to remind you, that there is at least one woman doing (or planning to do) almost the opposite - see "Con RP". ;)
(No, that answer was not too serious.)
-
I'd like to remind you, that there is at least one woman doing (or planning to do) almost the opposite - see "Con RP". ;)
(No, that answer was not too serious.)
I don't think you can compare the two... there's a difference between flirting and sexua harassment. It's a thin line sometimes.
-
Greetings All
I appreciate the response to this topic both positive and negative.
First many comment that harassment is covered in the rules of the game and is handled by the GM. My answer to this is simple. That is an OCC answer to an IC problem While something should be done OCC . where does that leave the characters involved. As the for mentioned actins happen In Character. In this game there are ramifications in character for every other circumstance except this. Our characters have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Therefore this is just another one of these circumstances.
I had an experience where I was most glad a friend came along when she did otherwise my character would have had to deal with a very sticky aftermath. And the role-play that resulted from her help was very good. It was that incident that spurred on this idea.
1. also deals with an IC issue in an IC way.
2. another opportunity for good role play.
This idea dose need corporation to be completely effective. However I will say this regardless of who is asking for help I will come if I heard the call. As that is MY choice I hope others will do the same. Anyone who dose not, well that is their choice.
Thank you all for your time and consideration and most of all your responses on this topic.
-
Greetings All
I appreciate the response to this topic both positive and negative.
First many comment that harassment is covered in the rules of the game and is handled by the GM. My answer to this is simple. That is an OCC answer to an IC problem While something should be done OCC . where does that leave the characters involved. As the for mentioned actins happen In Character. In this game there are ramifications in character for every other circumstance except this. Our characters have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Therefore this is just another one of these circumstances.
I had an experience where I was most glad a friend came along when she did otherwise my character would have had to deal with a very sticky aftermath. And the role-play that resulted from her help was very good. It was that incident that spurred on this idea.
1. also deals with an IC issue in an IC way.
2. another opportunity for good role play.
This idea dose need corporation to be completely effective. However I will say this regardless of who is asking for help I will come if I heard the call. As that is MY choice I hope others will do the same. Anyone who dose not, well that is their choice.
Thank you all for your time and consideration and most of all your responses on this topic.
Uh.... no. If I follow someone around, griefing them (within the rules), insulting them, and making sexually suggestive comments... it's harassment. I could say that "Well, it's just who my character is!" But no. It's harassment. It doesn't matter that it's IC, because.... it's harassment.
-
IC harassment should be always anounced by using an OOC comment and explaining to the other party that you are doing this for a RP purpose. Send a /tell first, explaining your behaviour and asking for permission to continue. If the targeted person or group feel offended OOC and they report you you WILL get punished (and usually with a ban). We see the necesity of having evil aligned players but playing evil is difficult so please make sure you explain your purpose first. Some people can exploit the RP excuse to harass others OOC and that is why you need to explain that what you are doing is IC and not OOC and continue only AFTER the other(s) will agree. If you get /report(ed) you will loose the chance of explaining that you did that for a RP purpose and it will be like in the cop movies, "everything you say can and will be used against you".
-
if you know someone who knows about roleplaying and would understand if it's IC or OOC i don't think it's nescesary, if you call someone something some medieval insults mixed up with some mob names "tefpile, gobblehead, boyfriend of a trepor" etc. (thx ninya) It would be easy to see that it's IC, but saying the F word, the S word the other S word and some other words but itøs still IC i would recommend to see if it was IC at first and if it is then advice the person not to use such words IC but instead some more medieval phrases and words...
-
The BIG problem is that not everybody understands roleplay and acting rude or worst to a newbie or somebody who didn't grasped entirely the concept of RP will get a /report on you. Now as GMs we only consider the text of the /report command because logs can be easily modifyed so if you are /reported you won't have a chance to defend yourself so I repeat, if it is your first encounter with a player and you RP an evil character or take any actions that can present a /report risk, please explain the reason of that behaviour in order to minimize that risk.
-
exactly that's why you may know some already who knows how to rp and would like some evil people to insult their characters for some fun XD, however if a noob comes to you while buying or something and says "hi wit u how do i get a sword?" you will know at that second ok he is a noob but you have to respond to him... so /tell noob hello :) what i am doing now is just IC so you shouldn't get offended OOCly to reply to me type "/tell evilguy <message here>"
noob tells you: wtf is IC
*explains.... an hour later*
noob tells you: sounds fun, try me (some understands it easier than others XD)
noob says: greetings sir, can you tell me where i could get a sword please?
evilguy says: why should i tell you bigheaded bootlicker?
noob says: because i need help in this world i don't know where to go or anything but it would be nice for me if i had a weapon to defend myself while tryign to explore on my own...
and so it goes on... and you should keep the ooc with him for a while to comment on his rp so he won't get offended oocly the first time he tried to rp. Something like you tell noob: nice phrase :).
Then you would most certainly get to talk about evil in the world a bit after in most occurances...
-
noob says: greetings sir, can you tell me where i could get a sword please?
evilguy says: why should i tell you bigheaded bootlicker?
noob says: because i need help in this world i don't know where to go or anything but it would be nice for me if i had a weapon to defend myself while tryign to explore on my own...
That is not how a newbie talks ;) I'd wish that all newbies would talk like that ^_^
That would mean that they have quite a fair knoledge about RP.
I'm not saying that people should explain what RP is to newbies during a RP event, all i'm saying is that the IC evil comments should be directed only towards people that understand RP and won't take it personaly. The problem is that some might just leave PS after joining and encountering such rude remarks from others without having the chance to learn what RP is and without having the chance to experience the game.
Let's take the next example: You just joined PS, you are a verry good RPer and you decided to play an evil character. Nobody knows you yet and you start acting rude to people without telling them you are IC and have nothing against them as a person. They use /report and make a petition. The GMs see that petition and check the /report log and since harassment is asociated with the mighty ban you get banned. You will have no way to proove that the whole conversation was IC so you will not be able to change the ban status.
Think of this situation from a GMs point of view, we are here to try and prevent situations that might ruin the game experience for others so harassment and especially sexual harassment (wich was the point of this thread) will not be tolerated. We aren't trying to create an utopia where everybody is good and nice but we won't risk having players harassing eachother OOC using the RP excuse as a shield.
-
It is really simple how to play this out if you really think about it.
Noob: "Hi I am new could you help me?"
Evil character: "Why would I want to do that! Can't you see I am busy you little leech."
Noob: "Well you don't have to be rude about it." >:|
Evil character: "Well you could pay me to be nice to you. Otherwise bugger off."
Evil character: (I just wanted to let you know that I am IC, meaning in character. I will respond to you in a rude way as my character .... only because he is a grump but I personally would love to help you out. How about we group together so that I can have the ooc, meaning out of character chat with you. So in chat I will roleplay my character to be a grump, but in group I will be able to help you with your questions ooc.)
noob: "Sounds good to me."
Now if the noob wasn't willing to understand what the "evil character" explained in chat and some how knew how to do the /report because they actually read the rules to the game before starting ... then it would be recorded that you explained your behavior. So any insults following what was put in brackets would be clear they were IC, thust the GM seeing what is really going on. It takes everyone using the system properly for it to work, but if done right there wouldn't be as many problems as I have seen pointed out in this thread.
-
As I already suggested somewhere else:
Using "/me" or "/my" to express a behaviour, usually helps to realise that the answer was meant in-character.
Just like insisting in shouting "LICK MY ***", even after telling that a petition to a Game Master was sent, clearly shows that this was rude regardless of "in" or "out".
-
As I already suggested somewhere else:
Using "/me" or "/my" to express a behaviour, usually helps to realise that the answer was meant in-character.
:) I don't agree. Some people new to the game don't understand the difference. I didn't when I first started planeshift. Explaining IC and OOC, the meaning of brackets and why they are there clearly to a newbie will help them understand I have found. I know most don't like the brackets being in the chat box but I find they are necessary with newbies at times and sacrifices have to be made in order for us to all have good game play. No system is perfect.
Just like insisting in shouting "LICK MY ***", even after telling that a petition to a Game Master was sent, clearly shows that this was rude regardless of "in" or "out".
If it is IC then I have to agrue that it is NOT out of line though. We have jerks all over the world in real life. If you want the game to be realisitic then sometimes you have to take what is dished out I think. That is only my personal opinion though. I don't mean it is ok to swear as there are rules about that but if you were walking by someone in a bad mood and they said "What are you looking at trepor head, do you want to have me make you lick my boot?" I think that is fine. You have the option to either ignore them and walk away mumbling under your breath, or take offence and challenge them to a duel, or verbal fight.
-
Here, now there is an example: Varic or Masoj. Without going too much into details he crossed some RP boundryes and he got banned.
Choosing your words and your actions is important when playing an evil character. In RP terms: Not all evil actions go unpunished if you rape somebody for example IRL you'll do time in jail. Well, we live in medieval times and the punishments can be more drastic, so, in certain cases you won't be trown in jail (meanning a 30 days or something ban) but you will be killed (meanning a permanent ban).
In conclusion, we need evil people but not all evil actions will be tolerated or go unpunished.
-
In that case there were Player Policy rules broken - so a strong reminder to everyone to please follow the Player Policy when it comes to behavior. Even if you roleplay, not all roleplay is appropriate. This isn't an R-rated game, for example.
-
Here, now there is an example: Varic or Masoj. Without going too much into details he crossed some RP boundryes and he got banned.
Choosing your words and your actions is important when playing an evil character. In RP terms: Not all evil actions go unpunished if you rape somebody for example IRL you'll do time in jail. Well, we live in medieval times and the punishments can be more drastic, so, in certain cases you won't be trown in jail (meanning a 30 days or something ban) but you will be killed (meanning a permanent ban).
In conclusion, we need evil people but not all evil actions will be tolerated or go unpunished.
offtopic: then there's the death realm, if he get's killed he will just respawn from there so laanx, talad or vodul will have to take his soul and kill both body and soul
/me goes to google R-rated
-
Here, now there is an example: Varic or Masoj. Without going too much into details he crossed some RP boundryes and he got banned.
Choosing your words and your actions is important when playing an evil character. In RP terms: Not all evil actions go unpunished if you rape somebody for example IRL you'll do time in jail. Well, we live in medieval times and the punishments can be more drastic, so, in certain cases you won't be trown in jail (meanning a 30 days or something ban) but you will be killed (meanning a permanent ban).
In conclusion, we need evil people but not all evil actions will be tolerated or go unpunished.
I hadn't heard about that. That's unfortune... but it sounds like he showed very poor judgement.
Being evil doesn't mean being rude.
-
It takes more to be evil, than just to act wierd.
And the one I reported recently (May I say his character's name here? Probably not...) didn't care about IC / OOC - he just ruined anyone's experience of the game. In my opinion, and the opinion of several other witnesses, he only wanted to be rude, without any plot behind it. If it had any intention, he could have mentioned it at least after we told him that a Game Master was called.
-
offtopic: then there's the death realm, if he get's killed he will just respawn from there so laanx, talad or vodul will have to take his soul and kill both body and soul
The death realm is a natural soul catcher but sometimes it "misses" a soul or two. That might be an explanation for the people that leave the game for good and never return. They died and the Death Realm ignored them. In other words they suffered final death. A God would also have the ability to vanquish a soul (and that explains a ban). The point is that if you want to find an IC explanation for things there is no limit but the setting and your imagination ;)