PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mayin on June 02, 2006, 01:32:49 pm
-
Why do we can't see our Advisor-points? ???
I like to see them :thumbup: just for seeing how much people i helped .. :lol:
-
So people don't power-advise. That resulted in bad advisor(ie)s.
-
Precisely as lynx stated. Helping people and "keeping score" is quite incongruous, and you are supposed to help because you want to, because you can. Everyone should forget about advisor points entirely and just be the good helpers that they are. If people see points, we get bragging, "powerleveling", and the general quality of advice drops - because the person asking a question becomes just another point, instead of a fellow player. This certainly does not describe everyone when points were visible, but it was enough that some action had to be taken.
-
ok :oops:
-
It gets even worse. I introduced a younger cousin to this game, and he asked a question on the help channel. The bleephole on the other end of the conversation ended the help session over half a dozen times, forcing my cousin to start a new one, just to rack up points. My understanding is that this was happening a lot.
-
How does one end a help session? Was it just claiming and answering with nonsense in that situation?
-
How does one end a help session? Was it just claiming and answering with nonsense in that situation?
He kept asking my cousin to repeat the question.
-
Hm, but I thought that if you claim an advice session with someone, you get all of their questions until the session times out. Thus it would have to be timed correctly for that to work.
-
Hm, but I thought that if you claim an advice session with someone, you get all of their questions until the session times out. Thus it would have to be timed correctly for that to work.
I don't know how it works. I tried turning advisor mode on once, and I couldn't figure out how it worked so I gave up on it.
-
Hm, but I thought that if you claim an advice session with someone, you get all of their questions until the session times out. Thus it would have to be timed correctly for that to work.
I believe that it works like this: Someone asks a question, someone claims it, gives an answer, (maybe) another question is asked, goes unanswered, they try to ask again, they can't because it says you have to wait for your first question to be answered.
I tried asking something once about crafting, and when I typed up my question, no one claimed it and it just stayed there, so I asked again, and it gave me that message until the session timed out. So people can easily answer a question like that, then let it time itself out. The person asking doesn't know who the advisor is, so they can't report them. It's a huge problem, but another advisor could if they're awake.
-
Answering to questions is easy:
/advice <name> <your-answer>
Like in the following example:
Bob asks: I died. What now?
/advice Bob You are now in the Death Realm and have to find your way out. If you can't find it, ask or follow other dead souls.
Before you start giving advises on the help channel, keep in mind that the help channel is monitored by other advisors and also by GMs.
The problem with advisor points is that people start competing for them, answering to help requests without actually giving an advice. Also, advisor points are now related to the account and not to the specific character. The list on the Laanx webpage was showing all your alts, not only the one who was active on the help channel. Many people (including me) didn't like that our alts were showing up on that list.
Fortunately Janner was doing a good job making sure that he and his 3 alts occupied the top of the list and our alts were not shown there ;)
-
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/drey7/advisorew.jpg \o/
just noticed the time in that shot too O.o
I believe that it works like this: Someone asks a question, someone claims it, gives an answer, (maybe) another question is asked, goes unanswered, they try to ask again, they can't because it says you have to wait for your first question to be answered.
goes something like, question -> that question with then get repeated (or this annoying 'messenger' bugger taps his foot) until a reponse is given or the session times out. Then someone answers... after that it should be good to 'chat' away, but like a lot of things i can be a little dodgey :P
-
The problem with advisor points is that people start competing for them, answering to help requests without actually giving an advice.
Yup one of the reasons I never used the system. Now that the system has changed I may try it but quite frankly I got so used to giving help IC and not through the help system that I prefer it that way. I find, as I love to roleplay .... having to stop and answer questions on the help channel a pain in my butt and takes me out of character. That is not me saying no one should use the advisor command as it is a nice system for people new to the game. I think it is great there are no advisor points to see anymore. People have seemed to lose interest as to who has the most points and seem to want to really help on the help channel now and don't just answer to be the top advisor.
-
Not to use a cop out, but I find the best answer to most advisor question is role play it out.
My most common question is "How Do I get out of the Death Realm?"
Which happens to be my favorite simply because trying to explain it via chat is almost impossible anyway.
But I don't advise as much as I used too because I got annoyed at trying to race the other advisors to help someone. It really sucks typing out a great answer to a question only to not be able to send it cause another advisor gives some short half ***d response.
But sometimes the best answer is a short one. Still irritating though.
So there still is competition to get to help. Just not as much as before.
I'd like to know my points, only for curiosity. But it isn't that important to me.
-
I was an advisor before I became a GM (not that this had anything to do with it) and I still am an advisor. The thing is that I usualy claimed and claim sessions only when there are no other advisors online and/or when I see that the response comes too late or the quality of advices is bad. I always corect a bad advice by sending tells both to the advised and to the advisor so here is the thing:
The help channel is there to HELP people, not to help you become a GM or to help you get in some statistics on the Laanx page.
So my advise for advisors would be: Advising will not make you a GM, especially bad advising and "au contraire" the more bad advices you give the less chance you'll have to aim for that position. And I give you this advice because almost every time I correct somebody that gave advices like "I don't know, try asking somebody else" that person will eventually send me a /tell asking me "How do I become a GM?" and my answer is always "Not by giving bad advices". So please answer only the questions you know the answer for.
The advice for people asking help on the help channel is: Please don't ask questions like "Help me" or "I need help". We can only see the first line from and advice session and this makes it difficult for us to see if the answer for your question is correct (although this might change). If you need advice regarding quests, NPC locations, trainers try to ask other people in a RP fashion because advisors are not alowed to give you those answers.
-
To find out your AP go on IRC and ask nicely a Dev, and if you do so nicely you will be told your Points and position.
Unless it has changed I have about 800 maybe a little-less and was top adviser, and I to would like to see MY AP in MY stats box, were they used to be don't give a fig about stats page were all can see JUST wont to know how I am doing.
I should not have to ask on IRC, i fell this is degrading and takes away the pleaser i get from helping Players. I also fell the hype about bad advice and grabbing points was brought about by the new penalties for challenge ect.
P.S. I have timed the length of time a request for help. It is 3 minuets so no need to grab.
-
Before you start giving advises on the help channel, keep in mind that the help channel is monitored by other advisors and also by GMs.
only the first question is monitored by other gm's and advisors... all the other questions will not be seen
-
Going on IRC is "degrading," Janner? It takes away from your pleasure of helping players? Rather strange phrases to use. Will knowing some points make you feel better about yourself, or the knowledge that you are making someone's time in-game easier through giving out quality answers? If you feel it's the former, I cannot help but feel disappointment, personally.
I also fell the hype about bad advice and grabbing points was brought about by the new penalties for challenge ect.
I don't see how invite spam penalties relate to bad advice and point-grabbing. Would you be willing to explain?
-
Why should i have to ask to find out what my points are ? had to ask several times and mostly no reply. So yes it is degrading.
Simply if you got penalized you lose 10 AP. Some players hate being minus so will do anything to get them back, or should i explain more.
-
People have a lot of points - some hidden, some visible. Just because it involves you does not mean that -everything- must be visible, accessible, and right there for your constant viewing pleasure. You are supposed to help because you are a nice person, buttom line - which I know that you are. Ignore advisor points - you get no message about them any more, so consider them nonexistant. We don't want people helping others and somehow "keeping score." So consider it this way - no one has any advisor points.
And since players don't have a way of keeping count of them, being penalized and losing some won't let them know just how much "minus" they are. I've seen advising improve after this change. Bad answers, whenever caught, are corrected by GMs, and if they continue further actions will be taken. But the amount of those bad answers has decreased.
-
In the main I agree that bad advise is on the decline, but if i wont to look at my stats and privately gloat were is the harm ?
I have all ready said i don't give a fig about public stats page just would like to know without asking.
-
Because gloating about advisor points is bad :} You're helping people - not racking up points.
-
IMO the advisor points should be only stored in a database that players don't have acces to. That might prevent competing just for advisor points and might raise the quality of advices.
-
Because gloating about advisor points is bad :} You're helping people - not racking up points.
Your right i am as Janner as Rennaj and as Girecol, so as you see its not important to me haw many i have, i would just like to know with out asking. O by the way a few others i have advised with as well, not really the actions of a person concerned with racking up points.
-
Not knowing the advisor points one "racks up" has saved alot of players headache of having to race to give advice. Not rushing means better more well rounded advise. I really see no issue here.
Janner if you want to keep some sort of tally, you could always do it yourself , if it is important to you to keep track. I mean you pretty much know right from wrong in game, so everytime you answer a question ... mark it down. Vola, now you don't have to ask anyone. :)
-
Not knowing the advisor points one "racks up" has saved alot of players headache of having to race to give advice. Not rushing means better more well rounded advise. I really see no issue here.
Janner if you want to keep some sort of tally, you could always do it yourself , if it is important to you to keep track. I mean you pretty much know right from wrong in game, so everytime you answer a question ... mark it down. Vola, now you don't have to ask anyone. :)
Never been a race for me, never rush to answer and if someone gets there before me good, I always answer as best i can never did any difference , except once and got pounced on by a GM grins.
Sounds good but don't always have the time to do it smiles.
-
My most common question is "How Do I get out of the Death Realm?"
Which happens to be my favorite simply because trying to explain it via chat is almost impossible anyway.
You aren't supposed to answer that question. It's like giving a quest solution.
To find out your AP go on IRC and ask nicely a Dev, and if you do so nicely you will be told your Points and position... I should not have to ask on IRC, i fell this is degrading and takes away the pleaser i get from helping Players.
Helping people should feel good whether or not you get points.
Devs shouldn't be giving out such information because it defeats the purpose. Shame on those devs.
-
To find out your AP go on IRC and ask nicely a Dev, and if you do so nicely you will be told your Points and position... I should not have to ask on IRC, i fell this is degrading and takes away the pleaser i get from helping Players.
Helping people should feel good whether or not you get points.
Yet again you show your uncanny ability to twist things, try reading the rest of my posts, even a moron can see i don't care about the points, i just wont to see them in my privet in game Stats box were they used to be, duel points are there so why not AP.
-
He's not twisting anything... Don't be so quick to jump at the chance to say something mean, Janner - even though you may dislike someone :\
Enough bickering, to everyone.
-
The reasons why have been stated in this thread Janner. I don't understand why you don't see them. Having the advisor points gone is a good thing as far as I am concerned. Why is it so important to see these points? What real purpose does it serve to open up your stats box and see these points? Am I missing something?
[Edit] :) Sorry karyuu, I posted after you. I am truly curious as to why Janner is so interested in these points and I am not trying to quarrel or keep a quarrel going ... just so this is clear.
-
To find out your AP go on IRC and ask nicely a Dev, and if you do so nicely you will be told your Points and position... I should not have to ask on IRC, i fell this is degrading and takes away the pleaser i get from helping Players.
Helping people should feel good whether or not you get points.
Yet again you show your uncanny ability to twist things, try reading the rest of my posts, even a moron can see i don't care about the points, i just wont to see them in my privet in game Stats box were they used to be, duel points are there so why not AP.
If you don't care about them, and if it makes the game worse if people can see them, then why do you want to be able to see them?
-
As you asked read this all of it.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1998/80029--b.htm#7
-
Please don't blow this out of proportion.
-
As you asked read this all of it.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1998/80029--b.htm#7
Well I read about 50% of it and then I thought to myself, this isn't answering my question. The question was simple "Why is it so important to you to see these points?" It is quite obvious that you are being very difficult so I will not bother to continue addressing you in this thread. Sometimes we don't get everything we want. In this case Janner I think accepting what is and letting it go would be alot more healthy for everyone. Point is I tried to see your point. Did you see what points the others were making including myself? As your posts are not very clear, it sometimes is hard to tell though I really try to understand. Is this really that big of a deal that you have to make a huge issue out of it? I would hope not, though with karyuu having to post warnings I don't have any hopes this will turn out to be a "Happy ever after" thread.
-
I have no wish to but was ask why.
Also i abide by the laws of my land, so if ever there is plans to have a server in the UK, ignorance of the law is deemed no defense.
That out the way, the arguments i read in hear apply to main web stats page and fully agree in the main with the points raised, my argument is what is wrong with them in the in-game stats that only i can see, unless i take a screenshot, no one else sees them.
-
As you asked read this all of it.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1998/80029--b.htm#7
No, it's not personal data, therefore that legislation does not apply.
Further, this is an international community, so the local laws of the player might not be relevant to the game's owners.
-
OK just for you Z if I play Janner he is personal to me and indeed no other Janner is allowed, that makes him personal to me and any info on him personal to me. I am no layer so won't state that under the law it is personal to me.
The point I was trying to make is under the law I live under i have the right to access to it,[personal data] so to me it is not unreasonable to expect access to it.
-
Janner, there could be a lot of information about your character stored by both GMs or devs, but that certainly does not entitle you to view it just like that, all of it, whenever you may wish. Your logic confuses me a bit. It's not unreasonable to want to view it, but no is no - some numbers are hidden, and they will remain hidden. If you want to keep track of your points, do it manually.
There is no way that PlaneShift will strive to comply with every law in every land. That is an unreasonable expectation.
-
If we're going to go into the legalities of it... I'm still not convinced that advisor points count as personal data. This isn't what kind of coffee you drink, or what websites you visit, or how much money you make, or who you talk to on the phone. Even if it was personal data, you would have to submit your request in writing to the dev team (that means snail mail). They in turn could demand an "appropriate" fee to be paid for their time.
-
Janner, there could be a lot of information about your character stored by both GMs or devs, but that certainly does not entitle you to view it just like that, all of it, whenever you may wish. Your logic confuses me a bit. It's not unreasonable to want to view it, but no is no - some numbers are hidden, and they will remain hidden. If you want to keep track of your points, do it manually.
There is no way that PlaneShift will strive to comply with every law in every land. That is an unreasonable expectation.
You would think that after speaking English all my life I could express myself better, o well, one more try.
Yes there probably is loads of info on Janner, not me if there is any on me expect a visit. [JOKE] I don't expect you to just give me any info, but on request of AP why not whats the big deal, not as if its a crime or a stat secret.
[keep my own score] yes I could by simply logging all my coms and going through them for hours ticking every time I give advice, don't sneeze blink or chose a time when the kids need attention.
No i don't expect you to comply with all countries laws, was just pointing out why I think the way I do.
-
This really isn't going anywhere, but:
It's not that difficult to make a mark somewhere whenever you claim an advice session.
We don't want people keeping score when they are helping someone. It is that simple. Advisor points have been made a GM/dev tool - it's no longer a player concern.
-
I have no wish to but was ask why.
Also i abide by the laws of my land, so if ever there is plans to have a server in the UK, ignorance of the law is deemed no defense.
That out the way, the arguments i read in hear apply to main web stats page and fully agree in the main with the points raised, my argument is what is wrong with them in the in-game stats that only i can see, unless i take a screenshot, no one else sees them.
I understand ... I think. So you are basically saying all you want is to be able to access the amount of points you have earned as an advisor upon your request. If that is the case, I don't see that as a problem for you requesting to know how much points you have obtained, or the GM's giving you that information if they are not at that moment busy. I could be wrong, as I don't know the rules for a GM and what they are allowed to give out as information or what they are not allowed to give out. Thank you Janner for explaining. :)
-
GMs don't have access to the numbers of APs someone may have - only devs with access to the database can find out the amount :>
-
Well then, that answers that question. :P Thanks karyuu for clearing that up. :D
-
I have no wish to but was ask why.
Also i abide by the laws of my land, so if ever there is plans to have a server in the UK, ignorance of the law is deemed no defense.
That out the way, the arguments i read in hear apply to main web stats page and fully agree in the main with the points raised, my argument is what is wrong with them in the in-game stats that only i can see, unless i take a screenshot, no one else sees them.
I understand ... I think. So you are basically saying all you want is to be able to access the amount of points you have earned as an advisor upon your request. If that is the case, I don't see that as a problem for you requesting to know how much points you have obtained, or the GM's giving you that information if they are not at that moment busy. I could be wrong, as I don't know the rules for a GM and what they are allowed to give out as information or what they are not allowed to give out. Thank you Janner for explaining. :)
The problem was that people were griefing players in order to get more advisor points in less time. I haven't heard of any instances of this since the advisor points became invisible, so I think it's an improvement. Our GM friends should be able to tell us more though.
-
The problem was that people were griefing players in order to get more advisor points in less time. I haven't heard of any instances of this since the advisor points became invisible, so I think it's an improvement. Our GM friends should be able to tell us more though.
I completely agree as per my first post .....
I think it is great there are no advisor points to see anymore. People have seemed to lose interest as to who has the most points and seem to want to really help on the help channel now and don't just answer to be the top advisor.
As for Gm's and information, I think it would be nice to be able to request information about your character and have it given, but at the same time that might be a little hard on the Gm's if they are busy and cannot at that time respond. Then you will have people filling up the forums with complaints about how the Gm ignored them, or how it took so long to get the info. That could become a problem as I am sure many others I haven't thought of might occur.
-
My most common question is "How Do I get out of the Death Realm?"
Which happens to be my favorite simply because trying to explain it via chat is almost impossible anyway.
You aren't supposed to answer that question. It's like giving a quest solution.
Please read all the words. You know, not just part of a quote. Lets try again with the sections highlighted cause they were overlooked the first time.
Not to use a cop out, but I find the best answer to most advisor question is role play it out.
My most common question is "How Do I get out of the Death Realm?"
Which happens to be my favorite simply because trying to explain it via chat is almost impossible anyway.
But I don't advise as much as I used too because I got annoyed at trying to race the other advisors to help someone. It really sucks typing out a great answer to a question only to not be able to send it cause another advisor gives some short half ***d response.
But sometimes the best answer is a short one. Still irritating though.
So there still is competition to get to help. Just not as much as before.
I'd like to know my points, only for curiosity. But it isn't that important to me.
/me claps
\\o//
I was still racing to get in to help people today. Guess being an advisor is whomever has the better connection, much like duels. Faster typing seems to help. I probably won't try again for a while either.
-
When I was in PS quite more than I currently get in now, after a question was asked I always did a /advise [players name] And then I went back and wrote out the answer to the question. That seemed to announce to the other advisors that is was going to answer so they didn't have to worry about racing. Course, when I get in game, there seems to be maybe 1 to 2 other advisors on anyway, so I never really saw the problems people are stating here. I never really advised much anyway. Mostly just listened to the others. I learned quite alot about the game that way actually. I only advised if no one else wanted to answer or there was no one else on that could answer.
Anyway, I haven't advised in some time since I haven't been in game for some time, is it not possible to do what I described above? Were people abusing that feature or something? Guess I'm out of the loop a tad.
-
As for Gm's and information, I think it would be nice to be able to request information about your character and have it given, but at the same time that might be a little hard on the Gm's if they are busy and cannot at that time respond. Then you will have people filling up the forums with complaints about how the Gm ignored them, or how it took so long to get the info. That could become a problem as I am sure many others I haven't thought of might occur.
I agree with you Zorbels.
Only developpers have acces to the complete database and bugging them for such matters I think it wouldn't be nice. And yes, we have quite alot to do without having to process every request for player statistics. The advisor points were removed from player access for a reason and that reason is to prevent advising for points. So the situation is like this: If you can't see them in your stats pannel what point would that be to be able to get them from GMs? The advisor points shouldn't be seen by players and that's it. If the developpers wanted players to know theyre advisor points they would have let them as they were before not remove them from stats so they can give people the possibility to ask once in awhile a GM about them.
So my point of view about the whole AP thing is:
They were removed. They are gone. You can't see them and if you can't see them you can't ask a GM to see them for you.
Besides checking your points as a measure of how many people you've helped is useless. What's the difference if you helped 100 or 500 people? You helped many. And that's all that matters. Wanna feel good about yourself and say "Wow! I helped 500 people so far!"? Advise for the pleasure of helping and you'll feel good about yourself after each advising session. Advising because you want to and because you enjoy it is more rewarding than competing for silly advisor points. You will not get a statue in Plaza if you have 5000 advisor points and certainly nobody will look at the Laanx page and envy you because you have so many ;).
-
OK my last few word on this , why do developers do there thing , why do scientists do there thing.????????
It is the desire to know, we all have it it called curiosity = need to know with out it mankind would have died off years ago.
-
Ah yes, the need/want to know.
In that case, consider the devs as your general and you the army pawn. It's need to know information, and you don't need to know.
-
OK my last few word on this , why do developers do there thing , why do scientists do there thing.????????
It is the desire to know, we all have it it called curiosity = need to know with out it mankind would have died off years ago.
Hmm. Yes, why split atoms when you can just rack up Advisor Points then count how many you have?
-
OK my last few word on this , why do developers do there thing , why do scientists do there thing.????????
It is the desire to know, we all have it it called curiosity = need to know with out it mankind would have died off years ago.
Hmm. Yes, why split atoms when you can just rack up Advisor Points then count how many you have?
In plan simple English please don't understand what you are saying.
-
OK my last few word on this , why do developers do there thing , why do scientists do there thing.????????
It is the desire to know, we all have it it called curiosity = need to know with out it mankind would have died off years ago.
Hmm. Yes, why split atoms when you can just rack up Advisor Points then count how many you have?
In plan simple English please don't understand what you are saying.
I'm saying that I don't think that Advisor Points are very significant, so I think it's silly to compare your A.P. total to what scientists do and pursue.
-
Slightly of topic but fell relevant. I have had a petition in for over 24 hours and to my surprise not been dealt with yet, on advice channel there was a hight ranking GM clamming advice sessions, don't know about you but if as we are being told they don't count and GMs are very bizzy, were does he get the time to do this and more importantly WHY.
-
I don't see how this relates to the topic at all, but GMs sometimes deal with issues without claiming the petition as they work - or sometimes they discuss it between the team, etc. A lot of the time we keep the petition unclaimed so that all GMs are aware of a situation, since claiming makes a petition visible only to the GM who did the claim. Both Hadfael and I saw your petition, but I couldn't devote enough time to start the info hunt that your petition requires, and answering quick questions I could handle. I was multitasking a lot.
You can always poke a GM and ask about your petition state.
"WHY" did I answer advice requests? Because I like helping out, and I had enough time to. Why do you do it?
*edit*
You're no longer in-game, so we can't quite help out - unless you send a PM with further details on the situation :} Please make a petition with as much detail as you can, so we can spend more time helping and less time hunting info.
-
Ok, I hadn't read any of this thread 'till now... I'm very confused at how in the world the jump to legality was made. Simply put, the only peice of "personal data" we have is the email address you used to create the account, and we don't even use that for anything. Everything else is ours; you own nothing. Even if you were paying for this game, it'd still be our server, and still be our data. We can track you and spy on your account in any way we see fit.
My origional intent was to just axe the AP system altogether, howerver we decided that we might be able to use it for internal tracking. (though, honestly, I don't think we'll use it much) From your perspective the system is just gone; we don't want you competing over this like a bunch of 2 year olds. People who play games just to get a few numbers on screen get bigger hate it, and we don't really care.
Please, for the love of crap, help people to be nice and not to get points. Don't obsess over some score that is unlikely to even ever affect you.
-
I'm surprised you didn't lock the thread. :P
-
I don't really love crap, in fact its one of the most displeasuring bodily functions there is, well at least to me anyway. Anywhoo, I get what you're saying about the AP, but then also, there is the whole penalty of AP thanks to the misuse of the duel/trade requests. If they mean nothing to the player as you want, then perhaps the penalties should be changed. Afterall, they wouldn't be taken away from a person as the consequence of doing something bad if they didn't mean anything. Seems to me, that if you're going to take something away from a person to teach them right from wrong, you would take something away that would mean something to them. Or maybe just hiding the fact that the AP got subtracted from the player may work. Remove them from the players view all together.
-
I'm surprised you didn't lock the thread. :P
Didn't really feel the need to. It's not a flamewar here, or really any ranting. From my point of view it's mostly confusion and whining. If it get's any worse, yeah, one of us will lock.
Advisor points don't, and never did, do anything. I might understand complaining if you could use them to buy other useless stuff, but you can't. The spam penalty on AP is still there, it's just silent now. People with signifigantly negative AP might get rejected for GMship, but frankly that's all we'd ever care to use them for.
neko kyouran: You hit the nail on the head with this: "Remove them from the players view all together." Honestly, the better approach would've been to tell you that we removed the system altogether (which we pretty much did) and not tell you that we're still keeping a tally of things.
-
I'm surprised you didn't lock the thread. :P
Didn't really feel the need to. It's not a flamewar here, or really any ranting. From my point of view it's mostly confusion and whining. If it get's any worse, yeah, one of us will lock.
Advisor points don't, and never did, do anything. I might understand complaining if you could use them to buy other useless stuff, but you can't. The spam penalty on AP is still there, it's just silent now. People with signifigantly negative AP might get rejected for GMship, but frankly that's all we'd ever care to use them for.
neko kyouran: You hit the nail on the head with this: "Remove them from the players view all together." Honestly, the better approach would've been to tell you that we removed the system altogether (which we pretty much did) and not tell you that we're still keeping a tally of things.
The spam detection system is still flawed though. Taking myself as an example, I have around -20 advisor points which I lost despite the fact that I wasn't even spamming. I'm sure there are better indicators to weed out GMs.:)
People like to see their advisor points for the sake of competition. That's what the points "do".
-
People like to see their advisor points for the sake of competition. That's what the points "do".
Yup, and that's why they were removed.
-
"Remove them from the players view all together." Honestly, the better approach would've been to tell you that we removed the system altogether (which we pretty much did) and not tell you that we're still keeping a tally of things.
What you don't kow can't hurt you (in this case bother you) or another one of my favorites, ignorance is a bliss. So seeing as this is supposed to be a realistic world and all .... lets just all forget that those points/numbers ever existed and move on to what does exist in the world Yialkum. YAY! No more trying to figure out how to explain the numbers in character. :thumbup:
-
People like to see their advisor points for the sake of competition. That's what the points "do".
Yup, and that's why they were removed.
Yup. I pointed that out in an earlier post of mine.
-
People like to see their advisor points for the sake of competition. That's what the points "do".
Yup, and that's why they were removed.
Correction SOME do not all of us do, but because of the few every one is punished, same could be said for Duel Points but there still there.
-
The only people who were "punished" were those who considered this a punishment.
Duel points exist to give bragging rights, and that's what they were created for.
-
Just yesterday I read an article of the chamber of commerce and industry (Germany) about protection of data privacy.
Simply put, it states that a firm or organisation must survey and use (the german terms are defined by law) as little as possible person-related data as possible, meaning that if the usage is not clear or "collecting data ahead" is not allowed.
Person-related data are (§3, 1 BDSG (Bundesdatenschutzgesetz - Confederation Law of protection of data privacy):
particulars of personal or factual relations about a specific or determinable natural person (for instance name, adress, personal number, but also assessments).
The data must be removed if the purpose of saving isn't given anymore. The purpose must be defined and must be clear to the person about whom the data are.
Usually a business (also organisation) is allowed to collect data if the concerned clearly stated his allowance in a contract.
If there is no contract, the legitimacy depends _on the acceptance of the concerned_.
Notification of the concerned:
If the concerned isn't aware that a business is saving his person-related data, he must be notified. The business must provide information about the sort of data and on what purpose they are being stored. Also the business must tell who is responsible for them.
I translated those important parts as good as possible, don't sue me if something is wrongly translated >.>
However, Talad: the non profit org is registered in Texas, USA.
So the above concerning the German law might not or only partly take affect in this matter.
The reason why I posted this was the statement of DaveG and the mere non-understanding reactions on Janners mentioning of legal terms. I hope this may sensitize the legal understanding of this matter, although after the German law, the devs wouldn't have to tell the points, only that they are stored and to which purpose.
-
Person-related data are (§3, 1 BDSG (Bundesdatenschutzgesetz - Confederation Law of protection of data privacy):
particulars of personal or factual relations about a specific or determinable natural person (for instance name, adress, personal number, but also assessments).
Yeah, that's really the main point here. We store no "personal or factual relations" about any "natural" people. (aside from the email address, as already stated; however you gave that up willingly, and we already agreed not to abuse it) The data in question is our own internal data about accounts on our server, not about people.
Theoretically, one could argue we should (but really aren't required to) state in the EULA in the installer that we store stuff we're obviously storing. Duh, we store your IP; every server on the 'Net does that, etc. Simply put, if you don't like the fact that we might store meaningless crap about your account, then don't install the game.
-
My main point being was that it should be stated in the EULA _what_ is being stored, but the data don't have to be revealed (here the amount of AP).
Using the IP and emailadress given, all statistical data, logs and so forth can be seen as person-related data as the person can be determined (with some effort).
Theoretically, one could argue we should (but really aren't required to) state in the EULA in the installer that we store stuff we're obviously storing. Duh, we store your IP; every server on the 'Net does that, etc. Simply put, if you don't like the fact that we might store meaningless crap about your account, then don't install the game.
I wouldn't say "meaningless crap" in that context :P
If data is meaningless, it mustn't be stored, according to German law.
However, I have no idea how that is being handled according to Texas law, which would be most interesting here.
-
In Texas law, we can shoot you for asking. :P
-
In Texas law, we can shoot you for asking. :P
hmm so if i lived in texas i could say "hey give me visible advisor points or i'll whop yo but" ;]
-
There was a plan, long time ago, to bring back the advisor's points as soon as a prettier system would have been implemented.
Drastic removal of information is never good, but I was not the one making the operation. However, it is true that in an RPG game "numbers" should be not splatted in front of the face of the user, but not so many people agree with my vision of what an real RPG game is, so I am afraid that anyway if they will be restored - hopefully, again - then they will be again just numbers!
-
Imo we should just get rid of them completely if they matter that much to people.
-
For me the whole advising system as it is doesn' t make so much sense. But, well, I am not the boss ;-)
-
I'm the one who came up with the Help channel and the advisor point concepts so I'll go ahead and weigh in also here. Although I am disappointed in the "power-gaming" of advisor points (and a bit surprised at it), the whole idea of the points was to measure and thereby encourage people to advise. The Help channel is useless if it isn't staffed when someone needs it. I did agree at the time with removing access to see your points because low quality advice was a big problem. We made the points automated because we wanted the advice feature to feel as seamless and automatic as possible, especially to the clueless newbies who need it most. I think it is the automation of the points awarded that caused the downfall of the points.
I would like to see us bring back the points, so people are visibly rewarded and can track their progress, but remove the automatic award of points. Instead perhaps we should make it so that when the session ends, we popup a box for the questioner that says "Did the advisor answer your question well?" and let them click yes or no. Then a "yes" answer would give the advisor his/her 1 point. This would give people the reward of seeing their point progress but would put the progress in the hands of the questioners, not the advisors, which would prevent a lot of the abuse I've heard of in the old system.
What do you think?
-Venge
-
I think it is a great idea.
But....
What if you did answer the question correctly and did well but the person still clicked no? Maybe out of spite or just because they didn't know any better. Would you lose the advisor point? Also people would log on as alt just to ask themselves questions so they could click yes to every question .... maybe? Unless that can be prevented?
-
The alt thing, I think would be solved by a simple /report of either the asker, or the one doing the answers (probably be better if it was done on the one answering, or both). A petition could then be made and the logs reviewed. Should the gms/devs decide that this was going on, they can remove do what they feel neccessary to stop this person from doing this. This would work, and it wouldn't be gm dependant since anyone on the advisor channel could so the /report command so it could be effectively monitored for "cheating" easily.
About putting the availability of awarding points into the hands of the one asking the questoins. I like this idea, and I do believe it has come up before as a possible solution. Here is what I see going wrong, the new player asks for the solution to a quest, the advisor says sorry can't tell you, its against the rules. the pop up box comes up, the new player selects no since he felt the answer given wasn't good, even though it was the right answer (but to the new player, the only right answer was the solution to the quest). Now the advisor should get a point for helping as they did everything right. But under this system they wouldn't. So I propose an expansion on this idea:
Should the advisor not get awarded a point for helping and if they feel that they should for what ever reasons, the advisor should be able to dispute this. I see this by allowing the advisor to mark thier session for review (by gms/devs) in which, the gm/dev would be able to review the help session, determine if a point should be awarded, and hand it out if it was indeed earned. This also wouldn't require a gm/dev to be on athe time, as if done right, once a session is marked for review, it can be stored somewheres to be looked at at a time when is most convient for a gm/dev.
Tying that in with the auto logging of the /report command being discussed in the other thread, if all chat is logged like proposed in said thread, the saving of the help session would be very feasible, since the chat is being logged anyway.
And thats my thoughts on that for awhile.
-
I think Vengeance's idea was something that also Talad suggested when the points were removed from being visible.
It is a nice idea, but of course, flaws might happen so its design should be studied accurately.
-
By hearing Vengeance' idea, I need to think at the ebay "reputation system".
It allows a "yes - neutral - no" but counting the "votes" not as +1, 0, -1 points but as three seperated statistics.
That would differenciate out the system a lot, amplifying the use for GMs (the current and only usage of the points), but if they were in open statistics again, one could really find out the quality of the advisors. This system however would make the mental impact of negative counting even bigger to what we have now, as people actually can see the negative ones (now those are kinda hidden). And with that a review/dispute option as suggested by kyouran would make even more sense.
I don't see Zorbels' fear of having alts as questioner and advisors to boost the points, as there is a big chance that another advisors takes over the session, plus /report by other advisors. In that context however I find it important to make it possible (maybe only for advisors) to see who is advising at the moment, a /advisorlist command.
-
Out of this thread, I insist on the /advisorlist command. After all, I do kinda want to know how many others are currently advisors, if I'm the only one, if there's fifty others.. Right now, you simply don't know.
-
\o/ Vengeance! That is a great ideea!
And Zorbels, I don't think that loosing one or more APs would be such a great deal. If people advise to help others points don't mater that much or at all. When the APs were implemented I never bothered to look at those but I always got surprised by others coming to me and telling me that i'm the 1st or 2nd best advisor (points concerned). Besides I think that people who would not award the advisor that helped them the point, would loose intherest from that advisor so the next time they have a question, that will fall on deaf ears. So I think it is preety safe to asume that they won't do that unless the quality of the advice is really bad.
-
If people advise to help others points don't mater that much or at all.
I've overheard too many conversations with people bragging about how many advisor points they have... trust me, the points matter to some people. Just look at why this thread was started.
-
The only problem with a yes/no is that a lot of new people ask questions they should allready know, or for answers advisors can't give.
For example:
How do I get out of the DR?
Response: It is best to ask a fellow player that is in the DR and to RP the current situation.
The guy asking is going to answer NO, I didn't answer his question. I didn't tell him out to directly get out of the DR.
But YES, I did advise him of the correction action to take.
Most people would just assume the advisor is just giving them the brush off, when in reality it is the correct thing to say.
This happened to me earlier today. The guy responded with; "You are kidding right?"
I responded: "PS encourages RPing and you will find a helpful community of active RPers that can help you."
One of those correct answers, but not what the person wanted to hear.
It will be the same with the quest answers question.
-
Limit how many points u can get a day ? No matter what answer you give (as the YES/NO will never be a right option). Then you can see who is doing it just for the points ... by checking how many times they've helped after their daily allowance has been reached (Just need stats logs and a couple of reports)
-
If people advise to help others points don't mater that much or at all.
I've overheard too many conversations with people bragging about how many advisor points they have... trust me, the points matter to some people. Just look at why this thread was started.
This is my thought exactly. I am not concerned, but I feel others would be.
As for my post, those were merely idea's that first popped into my head as I read Vengeance post. They are not fears of mine. Just simple questions that could be problems to this system. I couldn't care less if we had advisor points or not, as I do my helping player in the game in character. Not on the help channel.
-
The only problem with a yes/no is that a lot of new people ask questions they should allready know, or for answers advisors can't give.
For example:
How do I get out of the DR?
Response: It is best to ask a fellow player that is in the DR and to RP the current situation.
The guy asking is going to answer NO, I didn't answer his question. I didn't tell him out to directly get out of the DR.
But YES, I did advise him of the correction action to take.
Most people would just assume the advisor is just giving them the brush off, when in reality it is the correct thing to say.
This happened to me earlier today. The guy responded with; "You are kidding right?"
I responded: "PS encourages RPing and you will find a helpful community of active RPers that can help you."
One of those correct answers, but not what the person wanted to hear.
It will be the same with the quest answers question.
I suggested a solution to this a bit earlier in the thread....
"About putting the availability of awarding points into the hands of the one asking the questoins. I like this idea, and I do believe it has come up before as a possible solution. Here is what I see going wrong, the new player asks for the solution to a quest, the advisor says sorry can't tell you, its against the rules. the pop up box comes up, the new player selects no since he felt the answer given wasn't good, even though it was the right answer (but to the new player, the only right answer was the solution to the quest). Now the advisor should get a point for helping as they did everything right. But under this system they wouldn't. So I propose an expansion on this idea:
Should the advisor not get awarded a point for helping and if they feel that they should for what ever reasons, the advisor should be able to dispute this. I see this by allowing the advisor to mark thier session for review (by gms/devs) in which, the gm/dev would be able to review the help session, determine if a point should be awarded, and hand it out if it was indeed earned. This also wouldn't require a gm/dev to be on athe time, as if done right, once a session is marked for review, it can be stored somewheres to be looked at at a time when is most convient for a gm/dev. "
Edit: @Zorbels, I wasn't implying they were. Just trying to answer your questions with what I would think would be a decent solution to the situations you brought up.
-
Whatever you decide to do it should be made clear when you are allowed to clam a session, at the moment every time i log in someone is claiming long and short answers, and the biggest culprit is a high GM. So i don't expect players to abide by the rules if a person in that position does it.
-
Edit: @Zorbels, I wasn't implying they were. Just trying to answer your questions with what I would think would be a decent solution to the situations you brought up.
:-X Umm .... I think we have a misunderstanding. My post wasn't directed at you or anything you said in your post.
-
What the death realm is wrong with claiming a session? The quality of that advice is what maters. IF you know the answer to a question claim it 10 times. It is better to claim a session and take your time typing a long and helpfull answer than typing a short answer for the sake of 1 AP.
PS: I think I'm not the GM Janner is talking about :innocent:
-
Whatever you decide to do it should be made clear when you are allowed to clam a session, at the moment every time i log in someone is claiming long and short answers, and the biggest culprit is a high GM. So i don't expect players to abide by the rules if a person in that position does it.
I am not that kind of GM too. I claim the questions, when no one else is answering them, or when advisors are not allowed to answer the question.
I personally don't care about advisorpoints and how much i got of them.
i can't see them too, like all players.
You can better give a good answer, when you claim a question and not claim a question, when you are only an Advisory Pointshunter and give crap answers.
This was a reason to remove the AP's from sight, to stop the AP-hunters.
-
There is nothing wrong with claiming sessions as long as proper answers are given. I think all GMs are capable of giving proper answers. I don't see the issue here.
-
Points very firmly to this post. In-Game Advisor System. There also was a post from Terel saying GM should only advice when no one else is.
-
How does the name "In-Game Advisor System" translate to "No GMs Unless No One Else"? We don't have rules about who can advise when. Tarel may like to advise only when he sees no one claiming sessions, and other GMs feel like answering questions no matter what.
If I see a question that I feel I can answer better as a GM than most players would, I'd take it. We're not competing with anyone here, so unless you dislike the quality of advice someone is giving, why do we have complaints at all? People are being helped by competent advisors, and that's the point of the system.
I really feel like there's nitpicking going on.
-
what's positive in claiming:
+ You know what you type won't be thrown in the void.
+ you can use chat history to spare typing "/advice thenameoftheplayer"
+ you avoid typos in thenameoftheplayer that would send what you type in the void
+ the player knows he will be answered shortly
this are the only reasons why people are using this feature.
Now it seems that you see many negative points outrivaling the positive one.
Which one?
And about the advices I give being a GM:
GMs don't exist IC. The help chanel beeing OOC, every player can help with his knwoledge. GMs are players (hard to believe but IRL we do exist).
But I doubt this is your point since you already complained against me when I advised with a non-GM char.
-
I meant read this link.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=22709.0
this bit.
Advisor:
If you've played enough to know your way around, please consider becoming an advisor from time to time. All that is needed, is to use the command /advisormode on to enable the system. You will see others' help requests in the help tab. (And will not be able to make your own, until turning off this.) If there is a question that you think you can answer, use the command /advice [player's name] [message] to respond. If this message may be long, you can just specify the name to claim the advisee and respond momentarily with a full response. Do not claim a session if you are not going to answer it, or if you're busy with another session. (Claiming exists only to prevent stepping on others' toes.) Please answer all questions to the best of your knowledge, without giving any spoilers. For example, if someone asks where the next trainer in a skill is, tell them to check the other town but not exactly who the NPC is.
-
There is nothing wrong with claiming sessions as long as proper answers are given.
Janner, is there actually an issue here that you want to bring up? I'm just not seeing the problem.
-
This tells you how to claim.
If there is a question that you think you can answer, use the command /advice [player's name] [message] to respond.
This implies to me its for only long answers ? or am I reading IT wrong ?
If this message may be long, you can just specify the name to claim the advisee and respond momentarily with a full response. Do not claim a session if you are not going to answer it, or if you're busy with another session. (Claiming exists only to prevent stepping on others' toes.)
also if a GM is claiming all the sessions, then how would this apply.
We do keep track of who answers how many questions, and those who abuse this system will be banned. We will know who the good advisors are, even though the system is anonymous to the public. The advisor ratings are also used to judge potential new GMs, so if you aspire to become one, becoming a good advisor is a good idea.
NO I am not nitpicking just trying to stick to the rules as laid down.
-
the only negative aspect of claiming you pointed so far is:
- it annoys Janner.
It's the only reason that I made me let pple in need for help "tap their feet" while you were online and advising while I had an answer to provide and time to do it. If your suggestion is to implement a "Janner is on advisormode, please wait..." system message send to all advisors and advisees, then this should be moved to the "whishlist" forums.
Hadfael Asks: what's wrong with claiming advice sessions?
Hadfael taps his foot impatiently.
-
The way I interpret it is as follows: For long answers, claim the session so others can help other, and the person knows thier question is being answered. For shorter answers, you neccessarily have to cliam, but there is nothing wrong with claiming those as well.
I think am I right and thats how the general rule of thumb goes.
In respons to Had, I believe hes saying that people shouldn't claim sessions unless it shall be a long answer, as that is the way he has interpretted the rules, and that is where lies the confusion.
-
Does it honestly, truly, really matter how advice sessions are claimed and by whom, if the answers are all correct, helpful, and appropriate?
No offense, but who cares? Why does this bother you? Are any GMs who are claiming advise sessions doing bad jobs? If someone is claiming sessions and not answering or answering nonsense, that's another issue. But what problems are there with GMs?
-
When someone asks "I am stuck. What can I do?"
"use the /unstick command" can be seen as a short answer.
But between the time he asks and the time you press enter it has to take long.
You must ensure you really understood the question. Not all help requests are that clear.
Are you answering the right person? When many questions are asked in a row chat can scroll to the next one while you look at the name of the advisee to type it.
You have to check that you spelled at least "/unstick" well. It's not really helpful to tell someone to type "/ustick" or any other typo. Even this way you could still use the up arrow to "/advice advisee" to correct a typo unless you are a perfect typist.
The main reason the "claim" feature was shortly implemented after the release of CB is that when you have done all this, it's discouraging to see all your efforts send to the void. Encouraging fast typists or people who did not do the minimum required efforts needed to give a valuable answer to the person in need. Claiming profits advisors and advisees. Avoiding wasted efforts from the ones and providing useful help to the others.
And by experience, nothing says that this short answer will solve the problem of the advisee. So you may have type a few more /advice advisee without mispelling his name in order to help him further as quick as possible.
Some people are not "stuck" as in unable to move, but stuck inside a sector (dungeons, death realm, holes) only unable to find an existing exit.
-
the only negative aspect of claiming you pointed so far is:
- it annoys Janner.
It's the only reason that I made me let pple in need for help "tap their feet" while you were online and advising while I had an answer to provide and time to do it. If your suggestion is to implement a "Janner is on advisormode, please wait..." system message send to all advisors and advisees, then this should be moved to the "whishlist" forums.
Hadfael Asks: what's wrong with claiming advice sessions?
Hadfael taps his foot impatiently.
That was totally uncalled for as you well know, yes I take my time, FOR the reasons you later state to try and get it right, not as you told me in tell I will leave you a few for comfort. I suggest if you think that is all i do it for and indeed am that slow the you truly are the fool I take you for, do yourself a favor and find out how many I do have.
-
Personally, as long as people are getting the advice they need/want... I don't see how there is a problem.
-
By the Gods! This thread has become humongous!
Ok, about claiming: Claiming exists so you won't have to type an answer and see that after you typed it you get the message "[playername] is being advised already" (and sometimes that message pops up and you see that the advice given is worst than your answer that went to /dev/null). And here's the surprise: Everybody can claim a session. So that means that you can claim sessions too. The only thing that is important is the QUALITY of the advice no the way it was answered or the fact that the advisor claimed a session or not. IMO the only reason people would complain about others claiming sessions is because they are intherested in that AP lost because that other guy claimed the session.
So, my conclusion would be a special request to any developper that has DB acces: Please award all those who hunt those AP 10 mil AP (yup, "10 mil" means "10 million"). They will be happy, we won't care about the fact that they have 10 mil AP, like we don't care now that they have 1k or something, and we will be happy too. \\o//
-
Maybe the emphasize is on the little word "all" in "he was claiming all the questions", at least thats what Í guess. If so, then I see the problem is not GM specific but is more appearant when a GM is doing it.
Also a player can claim all the questions, simply by typing faster/having less lag. When I started advising, there was a player also claiming all the questions and also answering all correctly. Back then I didn't know about claiming, and also would have taken more time to answer than him, but nevertheless I was a bit disturbed as he didn't leave others any chance to answer even simple questions. That's when I /told him nicely that I like to answer simple questions and he didn't make a hassle about it.
I think as good advisor one shouldn't claim easy questions (or claim after a little while, giving others the chance to claim), to give other people, whether beginner or not, the chance to be helpful (even if it sounds weird).
However, I don't feel that can or should be solved via rules or game mechanics. One can look at it as little practice of common sense.
-
Thank you Kerol; at last someone gets it !!!!!
The situation you described is happening most of the time.
-
If you want to answer a quest but find that others are beating you to it claiming is a good option. If you don't wish to claim you are shooting yourslef in the foot really.
Janner - you have been moaing that you type out an answer only to see it claimed before you send it... If you had of claimed the session when the question came up you would not be facing this problem.
Once again...
Personally, as long as people are getting the advice they need/want... I don't see how there is a problem.
-
There is also probably a misunderstanding when it comes to whom could be chosen as a GM.
I really doubt that the choice will be made based on whomever has the most advisor points.
I am going to assume that a choice like that is based on many variables. Quality advising to be one of them.
People might think that if they get insane amounts of advisor points, that they are a shoe in for a GM position.
That is probably a good reason why so many people are getting frustrated about this subject.
I advise because I'm bored, not to be a GM.
If helping people will alleviate my boredom, then it is a win win situation.
-
If you want to answer a quest but find that others are beating you to it claiming is a good option. If you don't wish to claim you are shooting yourslef in the foot really.
Janner - you have been moaing that you type out an answer only to see it claimed before you send it... If you had of claimed the session when the question came up you would not be facing this problem.
Once again...
Personally, as long as people are getting the advice they need/want... I don't see how there is a problem.
i agree, as they get their help i am happy :), although it doesn't stop me from poking someone in the back for typing faster than me ;)
edit as a new reply has been posted: advisor points don't really mean much, but i am eager to help people, i often get tells asking for help, and i help them in game too, advisormode is just a way to help thoose you don't know (yet) and very helpful for the new players :)
-
If you want to answer a quest but find that others are beating you to it claiming is a good option. If you don't wish to claim you are shooting yourslef in the foot really.
Janner - you have been moaing that you type out an answer only to see it claimed before you send it... If you had of claimed the session when the question came up you would not be facing this problem.
Once again...
Personally, as long as people are getting the advice they need/want... I don't see how there is a problem.
You have it wrong I have said many times I don't mind at all if I am beaten to the question.
-
Then just make a one lined post stating your problem.
-
Well Drey I already have try reading my posts then you won't have to ask, or make silly mistakes. :-\
-
I much prefer my way.
-
I much prefer my way.
Kind of defeats the point in posting don't you think ;D
-
Just an extra little thing to do with advisorship, I don't think everyone knows that the help tab is used to ask advisors questions. I remember when I was a newbie, and I always went around asking people through chat, until I found the best guild ever (Wrath of Azure). Anyway, as for advisor points, if people want to know them, they should just have a rating out of Positive (above 0), Negative and Neutral. This is just to help people redeem themselves, and the negative people can find out that their advice is not good enough.
Cya - Aeroth. :sorcerer: