PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: sardit on June 22, 2006, 10:28:51 am
-
Since my own daggers were stolen by some unkind player who logged off and deleted in minutes after his act i am looking for two replacements.
3 Edited to remove a bit about the stolen daggers. There is no point in continueing this.
edit 2 ( no need for replacements any more, thanks for reading this )
Regards Sardit
Edit
( ps the game masters will not help me get them back as to their opinion the theft was fair within game mechanics. I obviousely did not agree on that, but a discussion on it is useless as they pointed out and any ideas regarding them in helping me get them back aswell so suggesting them in a solution to this is not needed or usefull )
-
The forums is not the place for this anymore than IRC is. You gave items to another player of your own volition and they screwed you over. Deal with it. For the billionth time I will say: GMs are police, not babysitters. They do not exist to compensate for your stupiditiy, nor make the game "fair" in whatever view you see. Their job is to enforce the set rules which exist to prevent exploits and serious harrasment, neither of which applies even slightly here. You didn't have to give those items to that player, and we don't have to get them back.
Please don't obsess over these stupid things. They're a couple meaningless little DB entries on a pre-alpha test server. Move on with your life, and if you really must have your precious daggers, search for them in-game.
Edited to add:
For the benifit of anyone who might wonder what this thread is about: Sardit lent 2 daggers to a guildmember that said they were "needed for a duel". After the trade they promptly logged off. Yes folks, it really is that stupid...
-
I really wasn't trying to restart that discussion, i only hoped to contact someone that would sell me Silverweave Daggers, and as there was no trade forum i thought this was the best place for it. The post scriptum thing was only there to avoid having to explain to everyone why gm's couldn't give me the daggers back. I got 4 tells suggesting that very quick after that post.
edited to add
I have found two replacements thanks to a kind player. So please regard this thread as closed.
-
Question 1: How do you expect the GMs to help you when you deliberately ignored the risks of lending your daggers to an unknown guy and he didn't returned them?
It was a dumb thing to do and usually there is a price for dumb things. So don't expect any GM to spend his whole time ingame checking inventoryes for a month or two because of your mistake. Besides, try remembering the fact that you are talking about some DB entryes like DaveG said. It is useless to make such a big fuss about them. For all those who didn't realised this yet, loot is just pixels.
Question 2: Have you seen any players around the forums?
Because I didn't. The players are ingame, on the forums you can find forum members. Useless to search for daggers on the forums because you will not find any.
-
( ps the game masters will not help me get them back as to their opinion the theft was fair within game mechanics. I obviousely do not agree on that, but a discussion on it is useless as they pointed out and any ideas regarding them in helping me get them back aswell so suggesting them in a solution to this is not needed or usefull )
Q 1 : As DaveG explained to me on irc i misinterpreted the role of Gm's. I'm was not asking GM's to give back my daggers in this thread, i asked if anyone could sell me some. My misinterpretation resulted from the fact that taking a players inventory after he drops them due to the weakness spell isn't allowed because that is considered stealing. He explained that this is only so as that apperently is using a bug to take items. Further more my intention in asking them in the first place was to use them as a mediator in this matter. And as also seen in this post they don't see their role in the game as such. Obviousely these things were not clear to me at that time and my contacting them was on suggestion of others aswell as my idea so i'm not the only dumb idiot around here thank you.
Q 2 : Since i was contacted ingame and now have replacements it clearly worked to ask around in the forums. Its pretty hard to contact every single player in game and i figured this was quicker. The result proves this.
-
My misinterpretation resulted from the fact that taking a players inventory after he drops them due to the weakness spell isn't allowed because that is considered stealing.
For the benifit of anyone who might wonder what this thread is about: Sardit lent 2 daggers to a guildmember that said they were "needed for a duel". After the trade they promptly logged off. Yes folks, it really is that stupid...
Hmm... these 2 statements do not match. So please clarify the way you lost your daggers.
Using the weakness bug to "loot" a player is a bug exploit. In that case we will act as mediators if we can and if we have proofs. Claiming that we don't see our role ingame as mediators is wrong. It is just that in your case there was nothing to mediate.
Asking for daggers here isn't the best ideea, we have an auction channel ingame and the fact that we don't have a "trading" section in the forums should have suggested you that trades should be done ingame. Altough it worked please refrain from using the forums as a market place because the forums aren't designed for that purpose. You don't have to ask every player ingame, just use the auction channel.
-
i THOUGTH that this was a similar thing. I was not affected by weakness spells, i lent them to a guild member that was in my guild for a couple of weeks. the minute he got them he fought a dwarf and ran away, he then left the guild logged off. He logged on for a minute about half an hour later and then vanished from my buddy list and everyone elses. I think he traded the daggers to an alt and then deleted his character.
It was dumb to lend out weapons but it is something that everyone does especially if you think you can trust a player. The time i was talking in irc was when this character did still excist. I contacted kerol in game and he could do nothing for me but suggested i go on irc since there was a GM5 command that could get my daggers back. He there discussed this matter with other gm's. He thought it was an ooc offence no matter how it took place. DaveG disagreed and thought it was a stupid thing for me to do. In his opinion it was an rp event where i was conned into it and should solve it in an rp.
I planned to do exactely that but as the character was offline immediately i didn't get a chance at first. However the character deleted and left me with no chance to get daggers back. So i started looking for replacements by looting rogues and trying to buy one, but since none were for sale i thought i'd try in this forum. If there had been a trade forum i would have posted there.
This thread was in no way intended to involve GM's in it. Or getting my daggers back through them. That is why i posted the whole post scriptum in the first place.
The role of GM's was clearified to me on irc and the whole difference between the two situations explained. Ofcourse i was disapointed mainly because i don't see the bug exploit in the weakness spell as its clearly an effect that can be derived from the guide and the spell description itself. However as that is labeled a bug it allows for gm intervention and as this was a screwed up thing from one player to another that had nothing to do with bug exploits there was no reason to interfere at all. That point was made and aside from my disapointement in that position i can only agree on it. Logically it is completely true and i don't dispute that point of view.
The auction should have been the way to go but as that did not work due to the small range and some players getting annoyed by seeing the same buy request comming by every 10 minutes i tried something else. I was not aware of any rules against this board being used as a marketplace since i have seen other threads doing so aswell.
As stated above i was not clear on the exact role of GM's at the time i requested this, especially since not all gm's see there role the same as the others do. The whole difference between those two matters was that one was a bug exploit. And though clearly an OOC theft the other was within game rules. Since alts that trade with eachother ar by default from other email adresses and alt list cant be generated and the only way to find that character would be through ip logs. I knew the minute he deleted that i would not get my daggers back as there is no way for a gm to even find them. Hence i looked for a replacement set.
Again this thread was in no way intended to discuss the role of a GM. It wasn't intended to push them into doing anything at all either. The whole post scriptum was there because i recieved tells suggesting to go to the GM's on this matter. And since they can't do anything because nothing here was illegal / exploiting bugs or anything i placed a note that those suggestions were useless.
-
If a player exploits a bug to cause you a disadvantage or to get an advantage for himself we can and WILL act as mediators.
If a player exploits your trust though, well, there is nothing we can do. Perhaps this experience will make you redifine your trust trigers but if it doesn't we canot do anything to teach you who to trust. Spawning items to compensate your lost is also imposible since you have no way to give us rock-solid proofs that you lost them and in your case, you lost them because you choose to place your trust in the wrong guy.
And my final point, again, the forums aren't designed for trading the stuff that you have ingame, for that there is an auction channel.
-
My misinterpretation resulted from the fact that taking a players inventory after he drops them due to the weakness spell isn't allowed because that is considered stealing.
For the benifit of anyone who might wonder what this thread is about: Sardit lent 2 daggers to a guildmember that said they were "needed for a duel". After the trade they promptly logged off. Yes folks, it really is that stupid...
Hmm... these 2 statements do not match. So please clarify the way you lost your daggers.
Using the weakness bug to "loot" a player is a bug exploit. In that case we will act as mediators if we can and if we have proofs. Claiming that we don't see our role ingame as mediators is wrong. It is just that in your case there was nothing to mediate.
Asking for daggers here isn't the best ideea, we have an auction channel ingame and the fact that we don't have a "trading" section in the forums should have suggested you that trades should be done ingame. Altough it worked please refrain from using the forums as a market place because the forums aren't designed for that purpose. You don't have to ask every player ingame, just use the auction channel.
I have to add my 2 trias here...
My good friend Beanius was challenged to a duel a short time ago, by a much weaker player, without any explanation or RP. Just a duel challenge. Beanius accepted, then used the Weakness spell on him in the standard way. The person was not skilled enough to hurt Beanius, and eventually his strength dropped, and so did some of his belongings. Beanius and some spectators picked up the items, then he died. The person complained to a GM (Syilph) then then appeared to Beanius and told him he could be banned for "exploiting a bug." What I would like to know is this: how the f*** can casting a spell in the normal fashion (/target player, /cast weakness) in a duel agreed upon by both parties, be considered "exploiting a bug?!" The effects of the spell are well-known, there was no trickery, and I had never heard of this being considered a bug before.
This spell was not cast in an unusual way, nothing was modified. The spell did exactly what it was designed to do. It isn't begin used to gain an unfair advantage over the other player anymore than using an arrow or flame to cause damage them or a powerful weapon to kill them instantly.
If this is truly a bug, they why the hell doesn't someone simply remove the Weakness glyphs from the game? That spell is utterly useless now that it's function is considered "exploiting" and casting a spell is now a bannable offense.
I would also like to point out that several months ago I was talking with a GM named Hadfael, and I asked "If I use Weakness on a player in a duel to make him drop his items, am I required to return the items?" He responded "No, if you both agreed to the duel, then it is between you and the player." Maybe the GMs should agree on what is a spell and what is a bug, the then let everyone know beforehand.
I find it rediculous that GMs on the one hand will say things like "You gave items to another player of your own volition and they screwed you over. Deal with it. For the billionth time I will say: GMs are police, not babysitters. They do not exist to compensate for your stupiditiy, nor make the game "fair" in whatever view you see."
Sardit made a mistake by handing his daggers to another player. And the weak player that wordlessly challenged Beanius also made a mistake. If Sardit is accused of being stupid and should just deal with losing two of the most prized weapons in the game, they why do the GMs jump to the rescue of some dim-witted newbie who whines about losing an arrow glyph and a couple junk broadswords? After all, as was so eloquently pointed out by a GM, "They're a couple meaningless little DB entries on a pre-alpha test server."
Personally I think GMs should be renamed to "Police" or "Gestapo" or maybe "Hall Monitors." In all my playing, I have never seen any GM-led RP event except someone running around changing people's models to clackers for no discernable reason, yet I have seen them interfere in other RP. I was "scolded" for a few minutes by one clueless GM who would only say "your guild has gone to far" but refused to say who did what to whom. And I mean clueless, because if this person were to ask ANY of the dwarves involved in the war against us, they would have known that our actions are RP and enjoyed by all of our RP'd adversaries.
Anyway, I'm obviously pissed off from my negative experiences with GMs, threatening to ban a friend for simply casting a particular spell in the normal way, calling my good friend Sardit "stupid" because he trusted someone in his own guild, threatening to disband Dwarvesbane guild for no specified reason except that they couldn't tell our RP in a GAME apart from real-life racism, and in my opinion completely failing to be Game "Masters."
-Drahlian
-
Using the weakness bug to "loot" a player is a bug exploit.
:whistling:
I am sorry, I fail to see how using weakness is a bug exploit. Is it because the other player may not have the weakness glyph?
And, if not then why even have the glyph in the game or it's affects. I mean that this is part of the magic in the game is is not?
Also, you must be in touch range to cast the spell, during the time it takes to cast the spell, one can be killed by an attack,
i'm sorry, but I fail to see how this is a bug. Thats like saying Energy arrow is a bug because at level 30 crystal way, it's range is so far.
On the topic of Sardit losing his daggers, I think its apparent it was an out of character act and the person that did it should be banned from the server forever. That is just low. Especially when you realize he did it because he /she has no clue about roleplay.
I mean think about it, had they known what roleplay is, they wouldn't have done it in the first place unless it was something personal.
-
Using the weakness bug to "loot" a player is a bug exploit.
:whistling:
I am sorry, I fail to see how using weakness is a bug exploit. Is it because the other player may not have the weakness glyph?
And, if not then why even have the glyph in the game or it's affects. I mean that this is part of the magic in the game is is not?
Also, you must be in touch range to cast the spell, during the time it takes to cast the spell, one can be killed by an attack,
i'm sorry, but I fail to see how this is a bug. Thats like saying Energy arrow is a bug because at level 30 crystal way, it's range is so far.
On the topic of Sardit losing his daggers, I think its apparent it was an out of character act and the person that did it should be banned from the server forever. That is just low. Especially when you realize he did it because he /she has no clue about roleplay.
I mean think about it, had they known what roleplay is, they wouldn't have done it in the first place unless it was something personal.
I would like to add that, according to a GM that Sardit talked to right after the incident, the person logged off then deleted the character, as it no longer existed in the database. I would suspect the person handed off the daggers to an alt before deleting the character. How much more OOC can one get?
-Drahlian
-
Crimedy.
If you have serious concerns, please share them with us privately - we do listen. If you're uncomfortable talking to one GM, talk to another. If no GM suits you, talk to a dev - acraig, Talad, Vengeance.
But we're not going to form a discussion on overall GM actions and complaints right now.
Concerning the daggers - GMs are not item-hunters. If we were, we would have a ton of people coming up to us going "My item was stolen! Please give it back to me somehow!" and almost none of them would have any proof whatsoever. When you give your things to someone, you take risks. When you place your items on the floor, you take risks. It is completely out of our hands.
Concerning Weakness - I'll ask around and try to give a more "official" response to end the issue hopefully once and for all, so please hold on until then :)
-
Thank you, Karyuu. That would be appreciated.
-Drahlian
-
Did anyone stop to think that sardit was in character and trying to help a guild member? Suggesting and pointing out what he did was dumb and stupid .... is silly and quite harsh. I think he learned from this lesson and won't be so quick to hand out his good weapons to players now. This incident it quite unfortantate, I am glad you found replacements Sardit. It is really to bad that this player was able to get away with this OOC thievery, but makes for a good story line with a cost.
-
I second the "Crimedy"...
The weakness spell is not intended to allow you to loot players. We have stated this many times, and have told players not to do it. The trade system is intended to trade items when desired. It works exactly as we want, and players are obvisouly aware of this as well. That's the difference. It's not a "because we said so", it's a "because it's not supposed to work like that, and you know it".
There are two completely seperate reasons that I'm closing this thread:
1) An action happened in-game, and it should be resolved in-game. The forums is not for item requests, auctions, or the like. This has been stated many times.
2) This thread was started after a long discussion/rant on Sardit's part on IRC. If you can't comprehend any of the following, there's nothing I can do:
a) Nothing unintended happened here. You just misplaced your trust. Deal with it.
b) If GMs were going around dealing with this garbage, the game would turn insane. Not only would the job of a GM involve answering every "but mommmm, he won't give me my TOY BACK!!!1", but I wouldn't want to play a game in that kind of environment.
c) I don't care what you think, at all. We have very simple and logical reasons for telling you in no uncertain conditions that this is not something that we will even allow a GM to resolve. You have no say in the matter, and even if you don't like it, you should accept it.
d) The /takeitem command is not on Laanx yet, and I set it to GM5 so that it required someone higher-up to use. It was created to yank glitched items from players so we don't have to ask. (ex: sword with a couple million slash, or an unreleased glyph that just appeared in someone's inventory) It is not for common use.
e) Doing something OOC vs. IC does not determine the legitamacy. If you break the rules IC actions will be taken just as much as if it was OOC, and an OOC action is not automatically disallowed, just annoying. Trying to put this distinction everywhere is just stupid.
f) Yes, I'm going to 'f' dammit. I agree the action done was particularly mean, but you walked right into it. If you can't see how stupid buying the line "I need them for a duel" was, when you obviously didn't know the guy much... tough. Stop ranting about it. You need to take these things less seriously. Frankly, I find it hilarious.