PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins on July 02, 2006, 05:11:29 pm
-
Firstly - forgive us if this has already been discussed - couldn't find exactly what we were getting at it on search.
Just before this wonderful world of PlaneShift went offline for its updates, my wife and I thought long and hard as to how we were going to build our House of Purrty guild, and how to fit it into the world of PlaneShift. Whilst we did this, and gaming continued, we were horrified at the growing numbers of blatant abuses of the naming policy in both characters and guilds. We won't go down the road of pointing fingers as that is futile, as it will always happen - but those who do it, know who they are and shame on you for your lack of imagination. Then there are the guilds who have no purpose in game, apart from gathering people who use Mac's or are of one particular language, or have interests similar that have no connection to the gaming within PlaneShift.
Onto the point of our post today -
Now we know there will always be a desire to create groups for like minded people and that we don't have issue with, what we do have issue with is their contempt to the populous of PlaneShift, but naming themselves with totally inappropriate names that have naught to do with the setting of PlaneShift. Also, their guild rules and objectives are lacking or nonexistent... (Just recently having been asked 'Join my guild, but to do so, you have to be high level...' followed by 'tell me your level or you can't join!'. Not exactly what we would call RolePlay at it's best. When asked what their purpose was it was something like 'I want to be the strongest guild') - hmmmmm?
There are many guilds already out there with more than excellent slants, fantastic RolePlay settings, and most wonderful rules and guides for their members... why should we have to put up with the lazy group making people who just can't be bothered to put a little thought behind the guild for which they wish to create.
The buddy list is there for creating a list of friends who have similar interests, and groups are there to enable you to chat in such groups, why inflict the nonsensical laziness of one’s lack of imagination upon those who put a great deal of effort into making the users of this wonderful place called PlaneShift. One should at least 'sugar coat' your group making with a decent name, and a game setting set of rules to help cover the fact that you are only a bunch of Windows Only users, or Mac Only users, or German speaking or French Speaking.. or... etc etc etc...
Also there are forums out in the Real World for the likes of that...
Because of our thoughts on this 'guild' issue and that we felt strongly enough to put it to the populous of PlaneShift to see if there are any Ideas out there as to how to prevent the world becoming a mass of guilds called things like:
Iwannabear or Macuserinc or WespeakaIT... (All nonexistent so as not to finger point)
and joining requirements like:
Mac user, Windows User, etc...
We personally think that Guilds should not be allowed to be 'created' if there is no attempt at giving it credence by having a decent name, and set of rules or ethics... and ultimately and in game Role Playing purpose... and once posted a permission given by the governing body of PlaneShift... Where clear reasoning as to why it was allowed or why it was turned down is given. ie - a set of criterion for the guild to meet to become viable.
(A good debate is not to name and shame but to propose ideas with sound reasoning. Bad debate is to just name and shame... pointless really. If you think someone’s idea is silly, don't just say 'that stupid' as that is pointless, say why you think it is not a good idea, and propose your own with reasons why...)
-
*nods agreeingly*
What I personally find the worst is not the existence of these guilds with their lack of originality or roleplaying purpose. It's that they are far far more succesful (in terms of members and activity) than most great initiatives. Most of those guilds rely on mass recruitment tactics and while some might have standards of some sort, those standards are easily met most of the time.
I've seen quite a few amazing guilds, that is those with an excellent idea, name and description on here, who never made it in the game. Or when they did make it through the creation process, they didn't survive for very long.
Anyways I agree that if this should be reduced to a minimum the guild creation requirements need to change. I'd like to see the tria and member requirement give way to requirements which are directed towards dedication, content and originality. First off there could be a general time limit which prevents any new accounts from making guilds. I don't think it'd hurt to only have those older accounts which already exist for a few months be able to create guilds. Secondly it would be nice to let people create their guild on these forums or on a website first, write out the idea and all, then have these ideas approved before they can be made in-game. This will greatly reduce the number of guilds only because it will take more effort and you need to be patient and wait for a guild creation supervisor before you can have your guild.
Lastly I was thinking about something not directly related to the creation of guilds but which would be better than things are now. This is the ability to join more than one guild with your character. It is more realistic in my opinion since I don't see why someone can't join a miner's guild as well as a blacksmithing guild, for example. The player would select one guild which would be his/her primary guild and show up in their label .. but they are also free to join other guilds. Of course this would require some changes, in the guild chat tab among others.
I think this would be interesting for a few reasons. First of all because the still limited roleplaying community can be spread across a greater area this way, instead of contributing to one guild one can contribute to several guilds. This would also be a big addition to the creation of networks and relationships between guilds and between roleplayers. Lastly it creates more possibilities and a tighter community. Right now I find that there are groups of roleplayers, usually within the same guild or with a few allied guilds, but those groups rarely mingle.
-
All good points and a very well said post. I agree with you and your views on guilds. Before the update came and the server went down I was disussing with a friend of mine how ridiculous it was becoming to see the almost every darn guild has the name Yliakum in it. They all seem to stand for the same thing. Helping people. Ok wonderful and great, help away, but isn't there other things you could do as well? That your guild could stand for?
Anyway, I wish that our guilds were more than just happy friendly helpful guys. Everyone one wants to be a guild master, but not many guilds survive for long because of lack of imagination.
-
Yes, the idea of joining several guilds is most certainly one of great benefits for those who choose to RolePlay varying aspects of their character, as said above - one could be a minor, or a knight, and have codes of honour according to that membership, then pledge allegence to a cause of another guild...
-
To head off the inevitable defense by Guilds who are basically OOC...
Yes, there are some guilds that are unconventional, and do not follow the herd of would-be heroes.
But they remain within the background setting of Yliakum.
You cannot point to them, and say you are the same.
Just putting Yliakum in your name is not enough.
You must also create a story.
~Verrliit~
.
-
Alot of guilds are entirely:
We protect the weak and good. We smite evil. We are heroes.
Its apparent to me that not many guilds are actually wholely unique, with interesting RP intents, mechanics or codes of law at all. Most are very similar, other than the name. Actually, scratch that, alot have similar names to. I know i can't be a guild master because I am not all that great at starting up a huge group sized rp that should be included with the making of a guild.
-
Joining more than one guild is good, but this could take to unbalance. In other games for example you can't to join more than one fighters' guild, but you can join more crafters' guilds, or merchants' guilds.
---------------------------------------------------
Secondly it would be nice to let people create their guild on these forums or on a website first, write out the idea and all, then have these ideas approved before they can be made in-game. This will greatly reduce the number of guilds only because it will take more effort and you need to be patient and wait for a guild creation supervisor before you can have your guild.
I would suggest that the supervisor follow this rule (among the others): "Guilds' backgrounds cannot collide. ie: last arrived guilds' backgrounds must not collide with backgrounds of previously approved guilds."
-
I agree with you and your wife certainly. I loathe some of the names of characters because they do not have any relevance to the game at all. I'm also in the process of forming my own guild, but even when I have finished with creating a story line and such, I fear that no one will want to join because they will not be into the Roleplaying-type guilds anymore. Instead they will stick to the ones formed only to advance levels and has no in-game substance at all.
I'm glad that you submitted this topic and I hope the GMs and everyone responsible for the monitoring of PS take action to preserve the integrety of the fantasy-based MMORPG we love, and want to keep the way it should be!
Harena A. :sorcerer:
-
I don have much to say and just going slightly off topic, there is a rule in force which prevents newly created characters from shouting for the first hour, to see a similar rule applied to the requirements before creating a guild would be a welcomed addition.
With mining (namely platinum) becoming so popular you can bet were going to see an increase in such guilds as mention by the Purrty Twins.
-
True... though I can't knock platinum because that is the main source of my income. Maybe, though I really HATE to say it :-X , there should be greater obstacles in the way of getting to the platinum mines. (So painful to suggest X-/ ) But I agree that it does allow for guilds to be made with less consideration as it is less of a financial risk now. Though it certainly would kill my bank account! Gah!
Harena A.
-
Alot of guilds are entirely:
We protect the weak and good. We smite evil. We are heroes.
I completely agree with this summary. I can count at least 5 guilds that follow those three sentences, and another 5 that are "evil." What's really missing in the world of guilds in Yliakum is what originally made up medieval guilds in RL - crafts and merchants. We need guilds of mages, blacksmiths, healers, hide merchants, weapons merchants, etc. Those by default would need a background story to function and are deeply involved with RP on a daily basis.
-
*nods* I totally agree with that. (And I'm working to help on that too... :sweatdrop: )
Harena A. :)
-
Seeing an all Mage-centered Guild would be very interesting. but more interesting would be the story behind it.
-
We already have the Arcane Order :) I think one of the first and longest lasting mage guilds.
-
Ive heard of THEM, but never really of their actions ect. what are they about?
-
Firstly - forgive us if this has already been discussed - couldn't find exactly what we were getting at it on search.
Just before this wonderful world of PlaneShift went offline for its updates, my wife and I thought long and hard as to how we were going to build our House of Purrty guild, and how to fit it into the world of PlaneShift. Whilst we did this, and gaming continued, we were horrified at the growing numbers of blatant abuses of the naming policy in both characters and guilds. We won't go down the road of pointing fingers as that is futile, as it will always happen - but those who do it, know who they are and shame on you for your lack of imagination. Then there are the guilds who have no purpose in game, apart from gathering people who use Mac's or are of one particular language, or have interests similar that have no connection to the gaming within PlaneShift.
Onto the point of our post today -
Now we know there will always be a desire to create groups for like minded people and that we don't have issue with, what we do have issue with is their contempt to the populous of PlaneShift, but naming themselves with totally inappropriate names that have naught to do with the setting of PlaneShift. Also, their guild rules and objectives are lacking or nonexistent... (Just recently having been asked 'Join my guild, but to do so, you have to be high level...' followed by 'tell me your level or you can't join!'. Not exactly what we would call RolePlay at it's best. When asked what their purpose was it was something like 'I want to be the strongest guild') - hmmmmm?
There are many guilds already out there with more than excellent slants, fantastic RolePlay settings, and most wonderful rules and guides for their members... why should we have to put up with the lazy group making people who just can't be bothered to put a little thought behind the guild for which they wish to create.
The buddy list is there for creating a list of friends who have similar interests, and groups are there to enable you to chat in such groups, why inflict the nonsensical laziness of one’s lack of imagination upon those who put a great deal of effort into making the users of this wonderful place called PlaneShift. One should at least 'sugar coat' your group making with a decent name, and a game setting set of rules to help cover the fact that you are only a bunch of Windows Only users, or Mac Only users, or German speaking or French Speaking.. or... etc etc etc...
Also there are forums out in the Real World for the likes of that...
Because of our thoughts on this 'guild' issue and that we felt strongly enough to put it to the populous of PlaneShift to see if there are any Ideas out there as to how to prevent the world becoming a mass of guilds called things like:
Iwannabear or Macuserinc or WespeakaIT... (All nonexistent so as not to finger point)
and joining requirements like:
Mac user, Windows User, etc...
We personally think that Guilds should not be allowed to be 'created' if there is no attempt at giving it credence by having a decent name, and set of rules or ethics... and ultimately and in game Role Playing purpose... and once posted a permission given by the governing body of PlaneShift... Where clear reasoning as to why it was allowed or why it was turned down is given. ie - a set of criterion for the guild to meet to become viable.
(A good debate is not to name and shame but to propose ideas with sound reasoning. Bad debate is to just name and shame... pointless really. If you think someone’s idea is silly, don't just say 'that stupid' as that is pointless, say why you think it is not a good idea, and propose your own with reasons why...)
Personally, I think this is all going to be covered time and time again as PS matures. I don't think the creation of guilds should be supervised, nor do I think that a guild for high-level players is "belittling" in any way at all to either the GM's or the players themselves. You'll get jerks and morons in every MMORPG, who don't want you in their group unless you've got the highest-end equipment, complete with that Level 99 Deathly Sword of Deathlike Death and Master Smith's Invincible Full Plate Armor with Enchantment of Turtle Wax Plus. But its going to be very hard if not impossible to legislate conduct beyond the basics of "no abuse, PKing, griefing and if you do that a GM drops the boom on you" . . .
and it wouldn't really lend itself to an atmosphere of openness either.
Once we get multiple servers, it might be a good idea to create a server for those who want to roleplay, and then one for those who don't. Imposing strict standards on this or confining ourselves to this "RP" format is just going to turn more people away from PlaneShift than would have decided to play it in the first place. This isn't to say I haven't found role playing to be engrossing and/or helpful in creating an environment that hasn't been fully created yet by other means.
Since of course, this game is still in an early stage.
Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna see guilds with names like "OMGWE0WNJ00" but maybe this could be taken care of via a less restrictive set of rules. Sort of like the section in the server database which handles rejection of names with illegal characters or words, but for guilds. Apprising hopeful guild leaders of the rules in another pop-up box along with the "5 members and xxxx trias" thing would help clear up any possible communication issues from that point onward.
As for the idea about creating guilds with an actual aim behind them such as leatherworking and hide trading, etc. . . that would also require the game to mature in a sense of development. So we're back to the initial point.
There, I've said my two cents, insert comments/questions/flames/etcetcetc. where appropriate.
-
although the thought of specialty-centered guilds[mining, baking, archery, etc.] is good i believe some would go back the the "we are better than you" basis... i think the top-of-the-top should approve guilds before they are created... i believe they should have a full blow plan before it is even considered... this would force people to stop being soo freaking lazy and actually THINK! that is what really grinds my gears... some people apparently cannot think... either that or even think for them selves and make others do it for them... I dont see a guild as being "Come one Come all we will powerlevel you and get you better than other people yay! you will be rich!!!" or the also popular "We protect all!!!" or even "We kill all lets go duel everyone yay!!! duel spams on the house!" i know that is really over doing it when i say that... but that really has started to become the basis for a good bit of the guilds... so basically the things are...
Originallity, RP Purpose, and not doing the group up thing like in school where only the populars hang out together or only the goths...
-
Once we get multiple servers, it might be a good idea to create a server for those who want to roleplay, and then one for those who don't. Imposing strict standards on this or confining ourselves to this "RP" format is just going to turn more people away from PlaneShift than would have decided to play it in the first place.
PlaneShift is a roleplaying game, thus all servers are RP servers. If people don't want to RP, they can look for another game. Harsh, but we build this project to our standards :) Besides, all servers will connect to the same world - there won't be any split.
-
I will admit, the first guild i have joined, the one i am in now, is one of those good will for everyone guilds. My main intent is to, not only make a few friends naturally, but get a feel for being in a guild and seeign hwo they operate. Once that point is reached, i will be joining/creating another one, which will be far more rich in terms of what lends it self to being a good guild.
-
how can asking an applicant who wishes to create a guild, to post his intentions, and be judged for his ability to be worthy to be a guild master deter from any openness? If all guilds are worthy, not just a lazy excuse to gather as like minded - out of character real life issue minded people, surely that can only be a good thing to help those who participate in the populus of PlaneShifts wonder concept of Role Playing on a Massive Scale?
rather than becoming just another MMORPG...
-
although the thought of specialty-centered guilds[mining, baking, archery, etc.] is good i believe some would go back the the "we are better than you" basis...
Why should that be a problem? Its not that guild A is better than guild B, its that both guilds may serve a different purpose which are geared toward fulfilling different players' wants. When I led a clan about like 4 or so years ago for Blizzard games, it was pretty much thought of as the best thing since sliced in-game bread by a majority of those in it. And do you know why? Because of the tight-knit and friendly atmosphere. We didn't try to legislate conduct. We didn't impose RP standards (though we DID have an online RPG "ORPG" running in our forums, much like the "Community Roleplay" section here -- and only for a while.) If you thought you were better than anyone else there in a game, unless you were in the top 10 ladder ranking, we settled that VERY quick.
MMO's and other games might be different, but the general atmosphere of clans/guilds and their leadership/player management can be counted on to be the same across almost all types of games.
i think the top-of-the-top should approve guilds before they are created
. . .
some people apparently cannot think... either that or even think for them selves and make others do it for them...
You're contradicting yourself.
If people don't want to RP, they can look for another game. Harsh, but we build this project to our standards :)
I really disagree with this approach, but. . .as you said. . .it is built to the standards of the PS development team. Not mine.
how can asking an applicant who wishes to create a guild, to post his intentions, and be judged for his ability to be worthy to be a guild master deter from any openness? If all guilds are worthy, not just a lazy excuse to gather as like minded - out of character real life issue minded people, surely that can only be a good thing to help those who participate in the populus of PlaneShifts wonder concept of Role Playing on a Massive Scale?
rather than becoming just another MMORPG...
I didn't say that legislating guild creation would do this, I said that preventing players from doing so much as enjoying the game via the unrealistic tightening of rules of conduct would do this.
We may as well institute a minimum age for signing up and creating an account.
What do you say to a 12-year old kid with the "I've-got-my-shiny-new-toy" complex? (Which TRUST ME, many of them do have) . . .
"Sorry, you can't play this game, we think you're too immature for it?"
-
rather than becoming just another MMORPG...
just another MMORPG...
seeing as many MMORPG's are not any where close to the purpose of RPG that would mean full of powerlevelers and a few<yet far between> rpers... luckily people get mad when a large group of PLvlers come and this discourages people from PLVLing... yet it will never stop... people will still try to plvl and half*** things because people will never change... that is why life sucks...
You're contradicting yourself.
that is funny because i was talking about two COMPLETELY different things... again... cant think?
Why should that be a problem? Its not that guild A is better than guild B, its that both guilds may serve a different purpose which are geared toward fulfilling different players' wants. When I led a clan about like 4 or so years ago for Blizzard games, it was pretty much thought of as the best thing since sliced in-game bread by a majority of those in it. And do you know why? Because of the tight-knit and friendly atmosphere. We didn't try to legislate conduct. We didn't impose RP standards (though we DID have an online RPG "ORPG" running in our forums, much like the "Community Roleplay" section here -- and only for a while.) If you thought you were better than anyone else there in a game, unless you were in the top 10 ladder ranking, we settled that VERY quick.
again... if you actually understood what i was talking about that would have made sense in coordinance to what i posted... and also... top 10 ladder ranking... who honestly gives a crap if you are better than him... that isnt the point of MMORPG... well it wasnt... it slowly has become who is better than who... which isnt even close to the meaning of RPG... PlaneShift is uniqie <strangely> because it is the same as what RPG really is... like Diablo... considered an RPG because you play a role... but people online only plvl and duel...
-
When I created my guild it took months of planning and talking to other players first before I went ahead and made my guild,The guild section was a great source of knowledge and after my first post got loads of advices and changed a few things around and most important gave a better story as to why I created it.
Sadly now it does seam to easy to form a guild. So I do think some sort of vetting should be enforced.
-
yet it will never stop... people will still try to plvl and half*** things because people will never change... that is why life sucks...
With all respect, if life sucks because of a MMORPG, its not the problem of the PlaneShift devs, is it? ;)
again... cant think?
I'll let that one go by.
and also... top 10 ladder ranking... who honestly gives a crap if you are better than him... that isnt the point of MMORPG...
Uh. . .No joke.
-
We believe there should be a healthy competition with guild against guild... that is only natural. But here we should do it with pinache, with Role Play... and as the game develops we can enhance the experience of role play, rather than just bashing things and leveling up.
Or, as we said, PlaneShift runs the risk of becoming just another MMORPG - which at the momente, it is most definately not... it is far much more... it is a place of creative imagination that flows out in the populus' Role Play.
-
Uh. . .No joke.
its funny because what you said with the why should that be a problem? stegment... you basically said what i said so that meant you said I disagree with you. then you reinforced apon what i said... so yea you said I disagree with that yet i must say i agree with you... which, in turns, made no sense...
and i agree completely with Lolitra
also... again with the if you understood what i posted...
With all respect, if life sucks because of a MMORPG, its not the problem of the PlaneShift devs, is it? Wink
where in there did i say life sucked because of an MMORPG... i said life sucks because people will always be the same, lazy and idiotic... although i see now that i didnt make that clear since before that i said about plvling... but i meant the not changing part... so yea you were right to say what you said
-
Once we get multiple servers, it might be a good idea to create a server for those who want to roleplay, and then one for those who don't. Imposing strict standards on this or confining ourselves to this "RP" format is just going to turn more people away from PlaneShift than would have decided to play it in the first place.
Ummm .... dude this is a roleplaying game. If people are uncomfortable or just plain out don't like roleplaying, then they shouldn't be playing this game in the first place. This really isn't rocket science. Talads whole vision was to have a game unlike any other MMORPG and have a world with a mass amount of players roleplaying. It clearly states all over the main PS website, the forums and even the message when you log into game, that roleplay is expected. If people turn away because of this standard .... well good. That just means the ones who weren't interested in roleplay won't be joining us in game.
@ general public: I also know that there are guilds in the game against roleplaying, why this is ... I have no clue. What are they trying to prove? Look at us we don't like to listen and we are bad asses ... so we are going to ruin everyone else's experience in the game that was MEANT for roleplay. This to me screams "Hi, I am a tard with no life what's so ever and I like to make other people just as unhappy as I am." THese guilds I have no respect for.There is no reason for these kind of guilds. If they don't want to roleplay, they know where the door is. They can go create a game and find their own server and have all the OOC they want. I don't understand why they would come into someone else's project and be so disrespectful.
-
Ummm .... dude this is a roleplaying game. If people are uncomfortable or just plain out don't like roleplaying, then they shouldn't be playing this game in the first place. This really isn't rocket science.
This statement alone should some all of this up.
-
its funny because what you said with the why should that be a problem? stegment... you basically said what i said so that meant you said I disagree with you. then you reinforced apon what i said... so yea you said I disagree with that yet i must say i agree with you... which, in turns, made no sense...
I meant to say, "PlaneShift, like what looks to be every other MMORPG, isn't focused on the clearly delineated idea of rank via ladder play."
Ummm .... dude this is a roleplaying game. If people are uncomfortable or just plain out don't like roleplaying, then they shouldn't be playing this game in the first place. This really isn't rocket science.
This statement alone should some all of this up.
Aren't there already ideal notations for OOC chat in game? [] and etc.
so we are going to ruin everyone else's experience in the game that was MEANT for roleplay. This to me screams "Hi, I am a tard with no life what's so ever and I like to make other people just as unhappy as I am."
I really think you're over-stating the impact of your case here on someone's social life.
-
Their are ways to differenciate ooc from ic, which would be [] ect, but ooc is frowned upon, especially when others are around. More so even when others are rping around. Ooc should not be in public. So in the majority of cases, Zorbels statement is more than sufficient.
-
We already have the Arcane Order :) I think one of the first and longest lasting mage guilds.
Its the one and only!!
But its scattered now. As a 'former' member i can say that our gratest failure was taking things too seriously. We had many projects, targeted at making a good RP enviroment(some of the crazyest are the 2nd aniversery game and arcane tower mush), but at the same time only few of the members ever went ingame, and so the Arcane Order became isolated, members inactive. I don't realy know whats happaning now(havnt been around for more than half a year), but its seems like things have gotten only worse.
http://ordo-arcanum.com/ (The forums got hacked X-/ )
So what im saying is that RP should happan ingame, not on some bizzare forums. Many guilds try to create a detailed history, because they simply get flamed for not having one. Mostly it dosn't fit into the PS setting at all. So details dont matter, why create a guild with a long detailed history and pretend its ancient or something, if the creation of the guild is happening right now, in this moment? I think too much emphasis has been put on guilds. Why care if you can join multiple guilds or just one? Will adding your name to some mysterious database make your RP experience better? Thats simply game mechanics.
As for guilds that are anti-RP, this has always been so, id say that things have gotten much better now. At the beginning of MB RP was close to zero.
-
Ummm .... dude this is a roleplaying game. If people are uncomfortable or just plain out don't like roleplaying, then they shouldn't be playing this game in the first place. This really isn't rocket science.
Aren't there already ideal notations for OOC chat in game? [] and etc.
That is not the point, and you know full well that there have been many requests for people to stop with the OOC in chat. Even with the OOC [] it still doesn't change the fact that this is a roleplaying game. It holds no place for people who don't agree with roleplaying in game.
so we are going to ruin everyone else's experience in the game that was MEANT for roleplay. This to me screams "Hi, I am a tard with no life what's so ever and I like to make other people just as unhappy as I am."
I really think you're over-stating the impact of your case here on someone's social life.
No. Don't assume, as you have no clue and again not the point. I think you may have missed my point as your focus was to quote the one thing that was my own personal opinion. Read before and after that sentence and you will find the point I was trying to make.
-
Some very interesting points made.
We agree that guilds should not have to make long high-faluted histories to make out that they are ancient, as they are new... but they should at least give reasonable goals, reasonable rules... and try to be part of the setting in which they exist.
There will always be a problem with out of character activities [ooc] as new people settle into the game, but if those who lead, and help guide in the new people don't lead by example, how are we to minimise such activities to an acceptable level of background noise... rather than full on frontal appearance that the game supports ooc activities.
Power leveling is not always a sign of poor Role Playing skill, as some are maxed and turn to RP for their entertainment - and are quite good at it. But to blatantly creat a guild based on ooc... or constantly refer RL in an ooc chat... is just selfish, as this is essetially a game designed for Role Play and there are plenty of forums or messaging programs you can use along side PlaneShift in which to have your OOC fix.
[quoting from others posts - (apart from highlighting what your oppinion or thoughts are about) - when most likely they have not expressed themselves in unambiguous words - does not help the topic in debate here... stick to facts or your own opinions and please don't manipulate other's words... that is so lazy, and quite frankly it is rude assume that you know the mind of another. If you don't understand their post, ask them to explain it further.]
-
wow, I just read through everything and ... I TOTALLY AGREE
I was planning to create a guild before, but I didn't know it meant except of "a group of people who can talk between each other". And this seems to be the main definition for new people and even some "older" people.
I really like the idea of an age limit, "Sorry, but your account needs to be at least 3 month old" and I think 3 month is enough.
After, we absolutely need an approval system. Each new guild created needs to be approved by a GDM (Guild Masters). This would avoid a lot of the OOC guilds.
And I was wondering, why do you need to pay to create a guild? and what is the point of having at least 10 members to join in the next X minutes? Normally, a person should take time and think before joining a guild and not join it because you are a mac users, the choice is very easy in that case and you don't need to think.
-
And I was wondering, why do you need to pay to create a guild? and what is the point of having at least 10 members to join in the next X minutes? Normally, a person should take time and think before joining a guild and not join it because you are a mac users, the choice is very easy in that case and you don't need to think.
This was put in place to stop the over population of new and excessive giulds that had 1 or two players or that a new character made as soon as they started playing. The idea was to get people to think a bit before creating a guild, to make them actually worth something. And in general it did just that. There was even a guild wipe if I recall correctly.
Granted this doesn't stop all problematics, but it does deter quite a bit.
-
Very good point, why should one have to pay to create a guild, - that was in place to deter people from creating one straight away, but as earlier stated, now mining is prevelant, it is no longer a deterant. The deterant should be the process of creating a Role Play based Guild... to fit the Role Play based world.
...and to add to our last post...
We fail to see how imposing such gaming standards would ruin the fun for the majority... only those who cannot be 'bothered' to Role Play would suffer a minor inconvenience as they would be forced to at least think of ic reasons.
-
@Lolitra
im agreeing with you but im just wondering what if its for roleplaying purposes (not the level or computer thing but things like klyoses only)
Please don't quote an entire long post, just to reply with a single sentence. --Karyuu[/size]
-
I'd say then they should have a good roleplaying reason that doesn't disagree with the game's settings for only accepting Klyros into their guild. If they have that I don't see anything wrong with it. Just saying .. it should be more than "Hey I have a guild for Klyros only, join us if you have wings!".
-
/me still wishes for the return of Ayshe and the true FL.
-
At no point do we say that the 'only a certain in game race' thing is a bad idea. There are many good reasons for In Character creation of a guild of say only Dwarfs, such as a Dwarven Mining Society, or even only Klyros such as the 'Klyros flight Guild'... But they would have to be careful to stick to their IC reasoning during gaming, and have fair description/history as to why such a guild....
Saying that there are many such guilds already that are well within Role Play Bounderies... and are very successful.
-
I have been reading this thread, and modelling the changes in our small society, that would occur if further restrictions and requirements were added to starting a guild.
I strongly recommend that no additional barriers be added.
And these are only a few of my reasons:
Just as people vary widely, in age, intelligence, experience, talent, creativity and imagination, so too must their play.
There will always be those who have little talent or skill, who nonetheless want to start a guild.
Even people who are absolultely terrible at it, should be allowed to play.
We should not be condescending, and say to them, they are not good enough to have a guild, just because they can't write a decent concept, or because the guild will be a jarring and horrifying flop.
The present rules provide offset enough.
Let them be.
Let them dream their dreams, no matter how small, and gain whatever learning and joy from them they may.
Let us not place a barrier at the entrance, nor prevent a single soul from attempting their dreams.
Let us instead be inspired by their terrible example of what not to do, to be even more brilliant, attractive and clever, ourselves.
No guild that does not satesfy the players who are it's members, will ever live for long.
And the lifespans of even the very best guilds, are entirely too short.
So let them be, these guilds of the bewildered, dull and ignorant...
Let them try, and learn or fail.
And also thank them, from the bottom of your hearts.
After all, they make the rest of us look very good indeed. :)
~Verrliit~
-
Well how about this... when making a guild you must choose a class... sort of thing... like a large list that has the different Trades, races, or reasons... like Mining, Baking, Blacksmith, Klyros, Diaboli, Kran, Hunting, Exploring... all the different IC things... just organized... so like...
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j309/RageMcCloud/list1.jpg
and then
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j309/RageMcCloud/list2.jpg
But i dont mean that is all... feel free to suggest more things to add...
-
Automated Guild creation... hmm interesting idea. Care to expound upon it a little more... i.e. how it would work in the game mechanics maybe?
-
well... not exactly automated... just that you have the story and all but you get to choose the basis of your guild so that you really CANT have OOC unless someone just chooses a class and then doesnt abide by it... in which cases you could maybe have it removed or something... just a way to organize and specify guilds... or... yea... basically you do everything the same and you choose the class and then there is less confusion and less OOC... unless peopel stop going by the class... maybe there could be something like... if you chosoe mining... and you dont mine at all you kill and plvl it warns you and notifies a gm or something...
-
well... not exactly automated... just that you have the story and all but you get to choose the basis of your guild so that you really CANT have OOC unless someone just chooses a class and then doesnt abide by it... in which cases you could maybe have it removed or something... just a way to organize and specify guilds... or... yea... basically you do everything the same and you choose the class and then there is less confusion and less OOC... unless peopel stop going by the class... maybe there could be something like... if you chosoe mining... and you dont mine at all you kill and plvl it warns you and notifies a gm or something...
That seems slightly too limited how ever. We need a strong medium idea.
-
I was planning to create a guild before, but I didn't know it meant except of "a group of people who can talk between each other". And this seems to be the main definition for new people and even some "older" people.
I really like the idea of an age limit, "Sorry, but your account needs to be at least 3 month old" and I think 3 month is enough.
After, we absolutely need an approval system. Each new guild created needs to be approved by a GDM (Guild Masters). This would avoid a lot of the OOC guilds.
And I was wondering, why do you need to pay to create a guild? and what is the point of having at least 10 members to join in the next X minutes? Normally, a person should take time and think before joining a guild and not join it because you are a mac users, the choice is very easy in that case and you don't need to think.
I agree that guilds need to be beyond power leveling and "being the strongest guild" (whatever that means). But, we should not add any more restrictions. I believe that a lot of people have a enough experience with rp from other games and do not need 3 months to be a good rper in PS and find their place in a guild. And if GMs had to approve every guild we would have to go through a censorship process that could potentially kill RP itself. Don't get me wrong, GMs could sort this problem but it wouldn't be a cold/objective process as the existing one and that makes me wonder if the Dwarvesbane would've passed this barrier had they had to be approved. It was a very controvertial guild and many GMs expressed their disapproval when it started (and they probably wouldn't have allowed it) but it brought a lot of RP and many, many players had a blast being in their ranks, fighting against them or talking about them.
I tend to agree more with Verrliit here: let them do what they want, their own appeal and depth in RP will determine how long they will last. But, the Purrty Twins make a good point suggesting every new guild should know it takes more than high level fighters or a strong OOC connection to be a real guild. Maybe we can add this guild discussion in the update RP guide Karyuu is putting together, after all RP is what supports a guild over time.
-
:) I don't think the GM's would appreciate more work load. They have enough at the moment and the team isn't really big, unfortantly, but for good reasons.
-
I tend to agree more with Verrliit here: let them do what they want, their own appeal and depth in RP will determine how long they will last.
That is one of the main problems I've seen .. those guilds lacking in depth easily outdo most good RP initiatives and tend to outlive them as well. A normal thing since their requirements are lower.
-
That seems slightly too limited
i dont exactly see how... because if the list has every possible RP reason<which sounds like a LOT but really isnt> and no OOC it would mean that ONLY IC guids could live... that is also why i asked for others to expand on the idea...
-
Just because you work at a donut shop doesn't mean you're not the accountant.
Any and every guild could potentially have a person doing any & everything. To make arbitrary restrictions based on the overall idea of the guild strikes me as illogical. Is there a reason?
If a player denies its Guild's principles the extent to which they are will determine if/how fast the guild reacts & resolves it on their own terms.
If the Guild itsself is off base of what it claims to/should be, that is another matter entirely.
I think if it's justifyable to have a guild of only one species & only one sex by ingame reasons it should surely be understandable to make one based on having a common language. Not to name it based on such... But even still i could EASILY imagine a giuld called "the elvish toenails" or whatever, acceptable name because of the randomly generated noun at the end; but still claiming that the have a right to reject you for not knowing how to speak any elfish. Or a guild name actually in elfish or such... People have made threads regarding klyros language as well... And besides; In game you''re not even supposed to use proper english, you're meant to use yee olde english--meaning rather than asking if someone wants to "Join us for dinner?" you would say askif they care to "Partake in our sup?" which ps filters turns into "Partake in our how farest thou" anyways....
The point is; I really don't see why anyone would want to take away another player's chance to be in a guild full of people who understand them. I think the real OOC reason but no IC reason is just a lack of simple justification.
[Before posting (as i often try to do) i did a search for a keyword from this convo: 'language'.
got this thread: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=14700.0 And am sloowwwly trudging thru it... (year old thread mind you so no need to go playing threadlazarus)... so far the most noteable part of the thread is [ « Reply #16 on: February 16, 2005, 07:48:18 AM » ]... and now [ « Reply #22 on: February 16, 2005, 01:22:39 PM »]... reply # 27 saved me a lot of thinking & frustrtion & typing, almost Dr Phil-like in its suggestion (in that it's not necessarily the smartest way to go, but it is the most realistic way to look at it, so it gives everyone pause...) ....by the way, tomyself and others who flame people for not searching... jeez try to get through these 6-pagers over a year old, and imagine getting no further towards a difinitive answer from a higher up than when you started... (dammit seytra if you were as smart as you seem to act like you think you are you would likely realize that most people aren't... :offtopic: )(no offence Seytra and the others who posted in that thread but after page 4 i skipped ahead to see if anyone of authority gave a difinitive answer beyond shout/help channels) ...ok forget this, redoing search "language guild" ...ok forget that... i started writing before doing about 2 hours of reading & sifting now, sick of it, just gonna post... and if you think this little part here is long you didn't try to search the subject quite so much, but sorry for rambling)]
What's wrong with suggesting a 'only accepts you if you speak some of our language' guild should just be rping "We grew up in isolated houses.. Our families spoke a forgotten language that was used by their traveling group. A group which got thinned through tumulduous times and has been scattered to the ends of th inner crystal [or some such] and only trusts its own..."
Even if you don't want to validate their language as another language of ps, call it a dialect of human/ylian or some such... or even a strange accent...
That way it all fits nicely for rp...I'm sure some of them learned whatever we are calling yliakkumese english. Be done with it. There is still a certain minimum english to be used if your guild wants to exist like a real guild ie: forums, quests, shouts... etc...
-
well for one... i stated the reason like five times... and also... an addon... maybe you could choose more than one class... again expand on the idea dont just bash it down without any thought... and also you were exaggerating the limits of it... donut shop and accountant... what i posted would only apply to the donut shop part... also race and gender... what i posted only applies to the race part... dont exaggerate to make something look bad in part for the other person... it really grinds my gears...
-
Relax everyone. Sometimes people get off topic because a good point is raised. I think all to often people read other peoples opinions as flaming ...when it really isn't. I have been a culprit and victim of this myself. If you think something might be geared towards you then send a private pm asking that person if they meant to offend you before freaking out and bringing it into the public eye. No one cares about who is right or wrong like you might think. Just state your opinions and don't go off on how someone else words things. Ask first, don't assume! If it is a shot at you then duke it out in the PM's so the rest of us don't have to have a thread that should provide some helpful information but is filled with flaming or misunderstandings.
[edit] :) RageMcCloud I just want you to know this post wasn't made just for you. Just in case. I meant it for everyone, I have both been a culprit and victim of these situations myself . I also may screw up in the future. We are all human and shiznit happens. I think we all have times when we need to just step back and re - think our approach on the forums. Believe me it helps.
-
sorry :(
EDIT: ok... so then... we really need a list of ideas suggested... and then just cross out or expand or something...
-
Don't get me wrong, GMs could sort this problem but it wouldn't be a cold/objective process as the existing one and that makes me wonder if the Dwarvesbane would've passed this barrier had they had to be approved. It was a very controvertial guild and many GMs expressed their disapproval when it started (and they probably wouldn't have allowed it) but it brought a lot of RP and many, many players had a blast being in their ranks, fighting against them or talking about them.
I totally agree with you Zhai, fighting and RPing with DwarvesBane was a lot of fun for me as well. But the problem is for anyone to find the way to distinguish OOC and IC things. At the beginning for me, as I didn't know anything about RPing it was kinda difficult, but as I learned to RP and sharpen my character's way of thinking and behaving it turned to be easy...
Anyway, creating a guild is not just a "I wanna be the leader Yay" thing, it deals more with sharing with others and enhancing whole PS game and you can't just do that for the fun.
-
hmmm please could we stick to the points and not point at others and say belittling comments - it is just a sign of ones inability to hold and vocalise ones own oppinions in a decent debate. Naming someone only makes the thread about them, not the topic... so please avoid it and as already advised - try pm.
creating a guild on a RL basis of language... is understandable, but, we reitterate, is not good RP practice to call it an ooc name... if it is 'shrowded' in PlaneShift reasoning then it may be justifiable to an extent... but as the common language of the PS race... is played by so many different language speaking players... its justification falls flat on its face, and becomes self defeating as a PlaneShift based group... and thus - quite nonsensicle. As we said there are plenty of places to have ooc chat which can be run alongside the game.
Sorry [edit] the use of language as a dialect is a good RP idea. But people who do that most likely have a sound RP reasoning too... unlike those who have just made it for reasons of their computer type or software setup...
The preselection idea for guild creating has some good points.. why not explore them... and see if they may be a good starting point for guilds to grow from?
And I agree, guild making is more than I want to be a leader... far much more, and very time consuming if you do it properly.
-
I appreciate the apology rage, as well as the mediating zorbles-- getting so there's no time to shower between posts... If i am asking for a reason; it means something is unclear. Saying "i already told you five times" is an invitation to indroduce five other friends to the conflict, or at least the middle one of the five..
rage,
As far as the ONLY part directed at your class suggestion:
If someone is a merchant, that should not stop them from being a thief without having to announce it as a class. if someone is classed as a miner then they can still have very easy IC explinations for why they want others dead "less competition raises the market rate" or some such. <(THAT is an exaggerated example. ) The donut shop example was to say (and i thought it went without saying, but i guess not) almost every business needs accountants, even simple ones... understandable that any guild could use enforcers, even peaceful ones.
I did not say not to classify into classes, i was saying that your suggestion of restricting based on class doesn't seem logical, or any more fun or useful to the rp experience, seeing as a guild already needs goals etc & those can be unique, change over time, be somewhat secritive and whatnot.
The stuff i was saying about race & sex, as far as i know had nothing to do with you.
guilds do exist that discriminate based on your character's race & sex as it is, and it is entirely understandable--much as it isn't sonething i agree with--i was only using it to clarify that there are already a few cases of exclusivity to guilds based on arbitrary reasons of character selection relating to rp, thus it would make sense to arbitrarily rp justifications for linguistic issues which can never be fully homogenated transcending from RL...
-
well i think it is all just misunderstandings... the one thing that has been irritating me is that no one expands on the idea... they just bash it down... the suggestion wasnt meant to limit rp guilds... as i stated... it was suggested to dispose of OOC guilds...
expand...
-
A lot of good points in this thread. I have to agree that disposing of poorly disguised OOC guilds (eg Macsonly, or UK-vs-POR ;) ) is a good idea, especially in an environment designed to foster good RP.
However, enforcing the disposal of OOC guilds could be difficult. I think there is a quite a large grey area here - is it wrong for players from similar RL geographical areas to form a guild only for those people? They speak the same language and most likely play at the same time. This in itself would lead to quite a tight nit RP guild formed from OOC reasons. If they create the guild with a good in game background it would certainly help.
The guild creation rules here http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=14312.0 seem to sum things up well.
-
well how about this... if someone goes in to a mass guild for OOC purposes... IE Same area... make it INTO ic... such as they are from the same area RL so say they are from the same area IC or same race IC and that is why they are a guild not because they live nearby IRL... the thing is getting the lazy, crappy, non-wanting-to-rp-yet-for-some-reason-stay-on-a-strictly-RP-game-which-really-mind-boggles-me people to change their OOC guild and make it IC for the same reason that it is OOC...
PS:it was hard to hit - and not space... i had to type slow... it hurt...
-
I agree with most of what has been said, and there should be more/more effective restrictions for creating guilds. For example, I play another online RPG, Conquer Online. In that game, in order to create a guild you must be level 90, and you must pay a large sum of money. However, you can become a guild leader if the creator or the previous one passes on the leadership to you.
This was just an example, but there can be many ways of restricting guild creations. I find that getting the guilds approved by someone is a good idea, although it does have a flaw: a person could simply create a background for his/her guild, yet as soon as its approved, he/she could simply abandon that background. To prevent this, a special permission could be given to GMs, allowing them to watch what a certain guild's members are saying, and if he/she sees that its OOC, then they could take action against it. The problem with this solution, is that the staff is very limited, and I don't think many people would agree to spend their time doing just that.
I am sure someone can find a solution for this, as there can be many ways.
And remember everyone, we aren't perfect, and neither is this game, just as any other game. There will always be rule-breakers, hackers, etc. But yes, we can try to find ways of reducing their numbers, and preventing them from doing such things.
-
yes... something in the database that would record actions... <would have to be a resetting cache as it would become HUGE after a while...> could help because it could be programmed to search out OOC things and warn the guild after like 10 or 50 or something OOC actions and then warn a GM... because every guild has OOC moments... but like one that is PURE OOC would be detected easily... just the programming part isnt...
-
RP cannot be enforced.
Not really.
Not without turning the world into a prison camp stalked by style police.
If someonei is disruptively OOC, then explain to them what is wrong with it.
If they do not respond, or become OOCly abusive, hit /report <abuser's name>, /tell a GM, and ask for help.
Sometimes that does not work, but usually it does.
If the OOC behavior is not disruptive, consider it background noise, like a loud cicada on a hot night, and ignore it.
It is not worth the trouble.
Most importantly, do as much RP in /say, in front of others, as possible.
To increase the amount and quality of RP, you must be shining examples, that others will emulate.
Making RP look like more fun that what the OOC players are doing, will have a greater effect than any rule possibly could.
-
I agree. Forcing RP and controlling guild "contents" is just going too far. There are unlimited ways and styles to roleplay and who's to say which one is above the others. The thing is not about how to control but how to help those who want to create/join a guild integrate RP in their planning. Yes, there will always be someone who would only want their guild to be about powerleveling but once their members are all maxed out they'll have to think of something else or get bored to death. And RP oriented guilds should also know how to innovate so they don't go stale. So, instead of creating a guild police there should be guild development advisors (it could be sticky and a message in-game when you click on the button to create your guild that refers to the forums).
-
I'm wondering if I'm the only one who wants to make the guild creation harder, not only to try and prevent OOC guilds from popping up but simply to drastically reduce the number of guilds?
Looking at the big picture only, without taking individual guilds and their differences into account, I feel that there just should be less guilds existing. Let me try and explain why first. Well I see guilds not as the game-thing everyone knows, but as the medieval organisations they originally were outside the cyber world. Number two in the dictionary explanation ...
guild also gild:
1. An association of persons of the same trade or pursuits, formed to protect mutual interests and maintain standards.
2. A similar association, as of merchants or artisans, in medieval times.
Now what is the difference you might ask .. well to me the main difference is that a medieval guild, one with a known name and not just a self proclaimed band of peasants, would be a whole lot tougher to create than just gather some money, a random bunch of people and there you go. Those guilds were also not created because a group of people decided it would be more fun to group together. They were generally created for economical purposes, they had a common goal and a good organisation. On top of that they generally had one or a few very wealthy members who provided the fundings and also a wellknown person with some form of authority. I doubt that in medieval times you could simply travel to a new city, spend a few days there and already have the influence to start a guild. Maybe after a few months, very maybe but even then I doubt you could do it without the support of a respected townsperson.
Guilds in those times were something elite, when you belonged to a guild it usually meant you were good at what you did and it gave you the support of others. Not every wannabee blacksmith could get into a smithing guild, only those who have proven to handle the craft could. There also weren't five crafting guilds in one city, more like one settled guild who did anything it could to remove its direct competition. Of course people didn't really think about creating a different guild with the same purpose, instead they'd try to join the existing guild because creating one was a long-term and intensive engagement while joining was easier. (That mentality is completely the other way around in PS.) These things made that there were only a handful of guilds in a city and only the more skilled artisans, crafters and workers were in a guild. The majority of people weren't. (Walk around in PS and tell me what you see the most? People with guild labels or people without them?)
So when you see a guild in that same light as me, most of the methods to restrict the guild creation suggested in here actually make a lot of sense.
-
I think that the newbies should simply not be able to create guild. Making in it too harsh so that only the people who find SW weapons everyday and who win 100K/day is just rdiculous. If you need to have been playing X hours on the game, that would be a bit better (maybe 50). The money I find reasonnable (20k ...). I find the fact of recruiting 10 people in the next X minutes is silly. This is one reason why people are recruited into guilds just for the sake of being in a guild.
The main thing I would like to see is to have a group is GDMs (GuilD Masters). The GDMs would be chosen by the GMs after an interview. A GDM needs to be a good RPer and have a good sense of what PlaneShift is and isn't. GDMs would (maybe) get some money for how muchz work they do. This would be a reason why you would pay money, to pay the GDM and fees for the creation in the registery ...
-
Umm I'm only a 'waylander' only been active on forums in recent times. but I KNOW i already saw a post somewhere making note of, at the least, the weight it carries when a person is approached by representatives of several guilds rather than one big one...
I think while making it a TEENSY bit harder would be ok for now. But until there is the oppertunity to create 'commitees' 'unions' 'assemblies' 'cults' 'sects' 'gangs' 'fellowships' 'clubs' etc of more permanent and visible nature than a 'group', it seems lame to exclude in such a way that unless you're elite at the trade you don't belong in the guild --in my head that leads to PLing in that skill and talk of ranks.. not to mention how does a person rank one's elitism in "helping others"? or should there not be guilds like that because things like that didn't exist realistically?
Besides, how much conflict could occur between guilds with only a couple per city? And if they have to be upported by the community would all real conflicts be intercity? Cool as that may sound in theory between spawn points & what's available in each city, (unless tomorrows update changes everything) it just seems to hinder enjoyable gameplay more than help it..
If mentioning the "couple of months" time before you would be able to form one in medieval times was a way of suggesting players only be allowed to create one after waiting period of such time I'm also sure i already saw that in this or another thread....but can't recall what was said...
[But upon seeing the 50hour suggestion i recall something like how i could only have 2hrs a night 5 days a week to play, thus taking me over a month--where a person who can play all day can make a guild in a weekend or so...]
..having given further thought tho: making guild restrictions as close to the RL medieval description makes perfect sense; if the game were complete... I think as it stands it would be a tad early to impose on people that level of rigidity... JUST my opinions tho.
And the GDM sounds bordering on the suggestion in this or another thread regarding an approval process for principles of a guild--which got replies mentioning all the rp fun dwarvesbane led to & how it would never have existed if such approval was needed...
What Josellis said about neexing X recruits in Y time; while i agree with the reasoning for thinking it's silly, i don't think it silly. I think it as so silly it's beyond silly....
-
Please note that I described how guilds probably functioned in our medieval past, I also know it's not possible to recreate this exactly .. hence I never said that guilds in PS should only recruit 'elite' members of their kind. However I do feel that it would be nice to see that guild label under your name actually have some value. Right now it means nothing because everyone who has been playing for a few days can make a guild. Everyone can gather 20.000 trias and make 4 alts.
Don't see any problems with only a handful of guilds in each town, keep in mind that the world of Planeshift will be many many times larger than the two measly cities on a tiny portion of the first level we have now. Intercity conflicts were also more common than intracity ones in medieval times. People in the same city had to stick together to survive and florish. It's also much easier to have a long lasting conflict when you don't live in the same town. This I experienced myself when my guild and a competing guild both wanted to 'be boss' in Akkaio. Things like that end up in: run into eachother - fight - die - go back 'home' - repeat. A very poor roleplaying construct if you ask me.
I do see the problems with time restrictions so I have a different idea. Many games use some sort of fame rating and I know it has been suggested for PS. If something like that is implemented it could be used to allow the creation of guilds. When you're famous and known by many you could start a guild of your own, in combination with some hefty fundings of course. This makes sense since someone who is known somewhere, generally has a decent influence and could serve to unite likeminded people.
-
Wow...
Firstly, Thank you ALL so far for a fantastic debate so far!
There are many points and ideas here, and hopefully many many more...
Now here is a suggestion.
A form of limit - whether it remain the same as it is now with cost, or change to a combination of cost and a time limit and cost - or what ever the populus agree best...
A new guild created will start with its name tag in the standard name colour GREEN. This not only denotes that it is a new guild, it may be that it is not achieving the next level which is granted by GM's who can see their RP activity.
The guild who RP's for a substantial percentage of its time in game then would be awarded a YELLOW name tag, This may be withdrawn if the RP activity is proven to have stopped. (How this can be monitored is up for debate?)
And eventually, a long standing and constant RP based Guild would gain a BLUE name tag.
Now, the colours of RP - YELLOW and BLUE will then become a beacon for the Role Players who join the game, to continue to hold on to their status they will have to maintain a high standard of Role Play, and encourage it not only with their members - but with all they interact with.
We await your comments with baited breath - and know that you will disect and deliberate over this with great intellect as you have done so well so far...
-
I was thinking of that very same thing, separation between new and established guilds, while writing one of my previous posts on here. It is definitely a very good alternative for making guild creation harder. This wouldn't remove anyone's freedom to make a guild but still give more value to some guilds.
I'd do it a tiny bit different though. I'd have new/normal guilds - guilds with a history/goals written out on their website and which abided by the guild creation rules posted on these forums. - Well established guilds who have the previous and are also known to be quality roleplayers in-game. Course that's just me ...
-
I think that having different "guild levels" would work fine because it doesn't cut you off from the possibility of enjoying the game your way but makes it clear that the priority is to RP over PLing. that way those "green" guilds will have to work on their RP to gain more "renown". Now, how does a guild move up? Sounds to me that having GMs oversee and assess guilds makes it a bit too open (not to mention GMs have a lot in their plates right now). I think there should be an automated way to move up, like in the forums where the number of your posts gives you a certain "position". If we do the same with, let's say organizing events or having a sort of checklist that would automatically give the guild certain points that would add up for it to level up (for instance: time passed since its formation, average number of active members, events organized -wars, competitions, etc.- and so on).
I feel that way we don't impose our "experience" by eliminating or controlling guild creation, using what imho are biased restrictions (since again, everyone plays the game with their own style of rp). it's better to acknowledge those guilds that work withing the game's settings and objectives. A guild should also contribute to the game in terms of giving opportunities to players beyond npc quests and GM events. All these guild activities should be valued and the lable color system suggested makes it clear. I insist that we should not think about discouraging people from playing by banning their guilds but encouraging those attitudes that are consistent to PS objectives, which are clearly stated.
-
one problem with automation... A guild can be RP based, but not arrange big events, or go to war...
-
by announcing an event, a GM could be present to observe. organizing a number of supervised events would give you a certain amount of guild points. other categories could be automated (like the average number of members online, or the time passed since its creation).
-
Hmm .. I don't really see how that'd reduce the workload of the GM's. They'd be asked to supervise tons of events. I think it would be less work to leave it up to them to observe guilds and check out guild when they have the time. Though I agree that with their current numbers they'd all be hard pressed to take that task up as well. I'm still waiting for more GM organised events :P
-
I like the color idea a lot assuming feasability...
As far as automation I'd hav to join nay-sayers...
Far as Events, some need supervision etc to work it seems at this stage in development; but generally 'planned' rps for scheduled events aren't ideal, as has been disussed in the form of a dead horse corpse which was beaten in at least one other thread... So public events a prereq for advancement of a guild may or may not be wise at this juncture--especially depending on unique goals/values of guilds & how publicly available events can relate to them or not.
-
I don't think this is about reorganizing the GMs' time but how to encourage guild roleplay and allow "the stronger guilds" to be those that are the best at it (not the ones with the most members or the fastest recruiting rate). But since we're talking about it, having "appointments" (aka dates/times for events) makes it easier for at least one GM to be present when an event takes place. Note that it doesn't have to be a huge event (just something slightly organized and that will bring a good number of players together for a while, obviously worth the GM taking a look at). But being required to put these together in order to get past the green/starting guild lable will definitely help go beyond PLing or OOC. Of course there will still be room for lots of improvised rp and I don't think rewarding events would compromise the quality of either one.
-
i believe i might have a solution to lazy guilds who dont bother using proper naming conventions. Very simple really and also makes lazy guilds like that fade away and contributs to the economy of the region.
firs when you create a guild you have to assign it for a specific purpose, these can be of from the following that i have so far come up with. This adds to the RP factor and gives the guild a purpose and reason for existing in the world and being created upon excalation of events.
Military
Merchants
Thiefs
Local Police
Protection or body gaurds
Mercenary(requires obtaining contract for killing target and needs to be displayed to loca authority)
All these guilds and its members get paid automatically based upon fufilling their purpose and get paid less when not fufilling their purpose. They also have to pay tax of a certain ammount depending how many members they have, if they have more then they will pay more tax. If teh guild does not do their assigned duties based upon teh purpose of the creation of the guild then slowly they will be paying more tax then income they are recieving, also members would leave since they will not be getting much income, eventually the guild will go into debt and have a certain period of time to pay it if they have not been able to pay thier taxes which of course would lead to automatic deletion of the guild if debts are not resolved in time.
This would already put of people creating guilds with inconventional names since ti woudl take more work and commitment to create the guild and also give it more purpose so names would be considered more.
-
I disagree completely with many of the premises of the people posting here. Here is a short list of what I disagree with:
- PlaneShift is *only* for RPers.
- You can engender creativity through regulation.
- Increased eavesdropping and monitoring of "private" player interactions would be a good thing.
- Increased eavesdropping and monitoring by GMs is possible.
- There is such a thing as "too many guilds".
- Newbies and clueless people should not be allowed to have guilds.
- Guilds without a valid AND unique purpose, and perhaps a website, should not be allowed to exist.
I could go on.
As I read this thread, my initial thought was "omg if these people take over I quit!" :-) But then cooler heads seemed to prevail and better ideas started to come forth.
We will get much better results with less effort and less restrictions on freedom if we simply reward the behaviors we like. The color coding of guild names, or even having named levels of guilds like the forum rankings, would go a long way toward achieving the real goals the posters in this thread have, in my opinion, and I would not only support the idea of doing them, but I would be happy to code such features myself. There are only a few options for how to implement such a feature:
1. Manual - GMs must monitor everything and award points or similar for what they want to reward. We would have to create rules for GM awards and cases and dispute resolution processes for times when the guilds disagree with the awarding GM about how many points they should get, etc. Also GMs could find this very onerous. So I don't think this is going to happen.
2. Automated - Any automated system can be gamed. The design issue is how to make a system that is hard enough to game or that is gamed in ways that we want (or at least don't care about). The two ways I can think of for this are:
a. Guild Points awarded for behaviors we like. This is almost like Exp for players, but for guild-level things. Examples might be selling X amount in Y time, or giving away X value of stuff to less fortunate people, completing certain quests, or just gathering X number of guild members into a single group online at one time. Awarding for "good RP" would be impossible without hand monitoring, but GMs could award points manually in addition to the automated ones.
b. Guild Points awarded for amount of time online by its players. Thus guild levels become a measure of the seniority and longevity of its members more than the levels or riches of those members. More or less impossible to game this system, but also rewards might not be as meaningful. An endurance award.
In EQ2 they have this concept of guild points and it works amazingly well. Their added twist is that the guild points are tracked per member, and if a member leaves the guild loses his/her points, which can knock them down levels. I like this aspect too because we all know loyal guild members who had a fight and got kicked out with nothing even when they were longstanding members. Losing that member's points makes there be a cost to losing people, and more cost to losing more loyal people. I think we want to reward that loyalty in PS also.
Thanks,
Vengeance
-
i totally agree. :) encouraging instead of controlling works far better.
-
see, we knew our post would evoke a greatness of ideas that would lead to common sense and excellent Ideas - Encourage the populous to populate with guilds that grow towards Role Play that is the aim of the core team of this wonderful world of PlaneShift.
We applaud the growing sense of unity and maturity of encouragement and leadership that is shining here in this very thread...
It is so true that oppression causes revoltion... but there must be some base starting line.. a standard... one that we all accept should not be allowed to slip below. No silly Names and Only Guilds that have sound PlaneShift setting reasons, from there we can either grow towards a better role play, or just grow in levels... which ever we feel happy playing.
Thank you all for participating with this debate.
-
*bows*
t was truly a pleasure to take part in such a mature discussion. :D
-
dam i actually thought my idea was pretty good as i based it on how the real world works. ah well, i should have gone into more detail. though i dont think that whole rewards and point idea and guild ranking will work as they have done the same thing with world of warcraft and pretty much stupid names exist and are above every other guild in the role playing servers.
only thing that solves and that i believe solves silly names is requiring more effort in to keeping a guild alive.
and yeah this si a RP game thats ist intension so anyone who doesnt RP shouldnt be playinbg this game and should go buy world of warcraft and see how fun it is to do pointless objectives and play in a world that revolves around famring for items, doing instances for items and guilds being created to do raids for more higher lvl items and in the end using that to make money rather than the professions you choose in it.
-
\\o// HII Lolitra, im sorry if this isnt the place for me to be posting but its me Evangan, if you remember that is, I have been away, I just wanted to say HI!!!
Now your creating a guild? Cool, I don't play yet, but I do miss you people :D bye!
-
I disagree completely with many of the premises of the people posting here. Here is a short list of what I disagree with:
- PlaneShift is *only* for RPers.
- You can engender creativity through regulation.
- Increased eavesdropping and monitoring of "private" player interactions would be a good thing.
- Increased eavesdropping and monitoring by GMs is possible.
- There is such a thing as "too many guilds".
- Newbies and clueless people should not be allowed to have guilds.
- Guilds without a valid AND unique purpose, and perhaps a website, should not be allowed to exist.
I could go on.
As I read this thread, my initial thought was "omg if these people take over I quit!" :-) But then cooler heads seemed to prevail and better ideas started to come forth.
We will get much better results with less effort and less restrictions on freedom if we simply reward the behaviors we like. The color coding of guild names, or even having named levels of guilds like the forum rankings, would go a long way toward achieving the real goals the posters in this thread have, in my opinion, and I would not only support the idea of doing them, but I would be happy to code such features myself. There are only a few options for how to implement such a feature:
1. Manual - GMs must monitor everything and award points or similar for what they want to reward. We would have to create rules for GM awards and cases and dispute resolution processes for times when the guilds disagree with the awarding GM about how many points they should get, etc. Also GMs could find this very onerous. So I don't think this is going to happen.
2. Automated - Any automated system can be gamed. The design issue is how to make a system that is hard enough to game or that is gamed in ways that we want (or at least don't care about). The two ways I can think of for this are:
a. Guild Points awarded for behaviors we like. This is almost like Exp for players, but for guild-level things. Examples might be selling X amount in Y time, or giving away X value of stuff to less fortunate people, completing certain quests, or just gathering X number of guild members into a single group online at one time. Awarding for "good RP" would be impossible without hand monitoring, but GMs could award points manually in addition to the automated ones.
b. Guild Points awarded for amount of time online by its players. Thus guild levels become a measure of the seniority and longevity of its members more than the levels or riches of those members. More or less impossible to game this system, but also rewards might not be as meaningful. An endurance award.
In EQ2 they have this concept of guild points and it works amazingly well. Their added twist is that the guild points are tracked per member, and if a member leaves the guild loses his/her points, which can knock them down levels. I like this aspect too because we all know loyal guild members who had a fight and got kicked out with nothing even when they were longstanding members. Losing that member's points makes there be a cost to losing people, and more cost to losing more loyal people. I think we want to reward that loyalty in PS also.
Thanks,
Vengeance
This game EQ2 that you speak of, did it have silly guild names or tasks that were silly or like 90% of guilds whos purpose was just to farm.
And sorry this game is for roleplaying players it states this somewhere i beleive or i heard it from another player. All i know is that roleplayers shoudl be playing this game bcause i do not wnt it to become another world of warcraft which of course if it does turn into that then i woudl just go back to world of warcraft. i dont care if this game is free, i liek the ideas, teh complexity and also the people who mainly play it to roleplay. You might as well caqll it a hack n slash game if it is not a rolplaying game.
I just think everything should have a purpose and teh creation of guilds liek anything in life is due to events that arise and must be dealth with hence this gives it a purpose and creates enemy guilds and ally guild relationships. Maybe that point system would work a bit but i doubt it would solve many problems that comes with guild creation being so easy and teh world being populated by silly names tasks and lack of purpose for its existence.
-
Vengeance is one of the top PlaneShift developers. He knows precisely what game PlaneShift is and for whom :P
-
Vengeance is one of the top PlaneShift developers. He knows precisely what game PlaneShift is and for whom :P
And unless he is feeling particularly cranky, he tends to make sense, too.
Verrliit bows to Vengance in respect.
-
Thanks for the compliments. :-)
I want to say this again, and I'm going to keep saying it because no one else apparently is. This game is for all players. We don't limit it to adults, nor to children. We don't require everyone to speak English or to have a certain kind of computer. We don't require everyone to like being furry or to like being a rock. Short, tall, male, female, fighter, wizard, merchant, crafter. Play how you want and have fun any way you can which does not involve cheating or griefing.
RPers should view PS as a place they can RP without being looked down on by the community (as in many games), but OOCers and Power gamers should view PS as a fun place to run around telling jokes and leveling up as fast as they can. Crafters who like smithing are free to ignore the RPers and the PGers alike, and just compete with each other on who makes the best shields. No one should view their freedom as a license to be offended by the players of other focus though. Crafters are not to be offended by RPers and RPers are not to be offended by PGers, and so on. Can't we all just get along? :-)
- Vengeance
-
Venge, I have read all of your posts here, and hold you in the highest respect for your work and dedication to this project. I also like you as a person. But I have one thing to say here.
When you try to make a cake to please everyone, and mix in everyone's favorite ingredients, you get one thing. Bad cake.
Some things have to be left out, and to my utter dismay, it is RP that always gets the ax.
I would post my suggestions that could work for both sides, but I tire of blowing smoke in the wind.
-
This may be a little presumptuous as I have yet to play Planeshift. However, I just couldn't resist posting my opinion on this topic.
When I join a guild it is usually because I want to get to know people that I can group with on a (semi)regular basis.
My experience in other games (EQ & EQ2) is that the best groups are quite diverse. Groups composed of similar characters (eg everyone is a Xacha healer) just don't tend to work out too well :(
For this reason, I would be looking for a guild that has a diversity of characters and would avoid any that, for instance, are for healers only.
Greymist
-
if you give people to much freedom then they tend to mess around in the game and ruin it for everyone. when i say freedom i mean in its purest sense which is no consiquences for your actions. If you restrict them then they will find a way to mess around and mess things up.
The way i see it is that freedom of your actions must come at a price which is why there is laws and consequences in life to all your actions.
If anyone has played "The elders scrolls:Morrowind" then you will know what i mean and what makes a game have great playability due to characters enviroment being simulated to real life.
in my opinion i dont like people who do not RP or kids or adults with kids minds sinse i had to put up with a lot of them and there idiotic ways of amusment in World of warcraft and also there kind moving into RPservers on world of warcraft and making there own rules and playing on there own terms and ruining the experience for many other players. I dont really care if these people leave the game as it can be seen as a good thing and make the game more immersive fro many players.
ive been playing games for a very long time and i have lost my patience for many immature players so to me it wouldnt be much of a loss if they leave because the game becomes more RP orientated or based more on real world freedoms.
thats my 2 cents worth. Hate me if you wish for my comments but ive seen it happen to many times and speak the truth and am very sceptical when it comes to people an their maturity.