PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Abemore on January 24, 2003, 09:36:38 am
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I finally played Everquest, and I pray that Planeshift will be nothing like it.
I posted this in another general forum somewhere and it made me think of Planeshift. After reading this, I hope some of you will agree with me that PS should not be similar to EQ... and if you dont agree with me, we can further the discussion here...
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Abemore:
Can anyone tell me why this game is popular?
After playing it for several weeks, it seems to me to be a truly horrible game.
If someone can please explain the good features of this game that I am apparently missing, that would be great... because right now I\'m pretty certain that I could convince anyone that this game sucks.
Please post your thoughts if you played the game.
Deflux:
I\'ve played EQ for 2 years and finally broke my addiction a year ago
Everquest is a very complex game, a huge game. And you will never see everything in the game even people who played for years never experienced everything. The game gets good when you reach high levels, its hard to explain but there is a whole dimension to it. Its pretty fun hunting dragons with 30 other people. Its fun going to large dungeons with your entire guild(kinda like clan) and getting cool and powerful items. Its also fun to work as a team with 30+ people to take down gods and bosses in the game. as I said its hard to explain what the game is exactly about, but it can be really fun.
Abemore:Deflux -
The game gets good when you reach high levels
so, if its not good prior to high levels, then how did anyone ever get to those levels? :P
also, from what you\'ve said, the fun of the game is entirely about working within groups and doing your part to help that group function efficiently. There seems to be no place for a player who does not wish to be part of a guild or clan. A player who chooses to solo deals more with just the game. For example, I wanted to progress through the game by following quests, but this proved impossible since every quest giving NPC gives you the least amount of information possible. \"Noble [your name here], you must collect [a list of strange items] and take them to [another NPC\'s name] in [some place you\'ve never heard of].\" Can I please get a map? The general direction I should be heading? An idea where to find the items? Anything useful? No? Then I must either wander aimlessly through the game or search through websites dedicated to this game to explain what the NPC should have told me. So, grouping and dominating is the only way to go (even though the user interface is crap...rightclick and drag to mouselook...what is that?). While this game is Massive, Multiplayer, and Online, I would hardly call it an RPG. If this game were offline, it would be found in the bargin bin at most stores for $5. If you\'d like to see what Everquest would look like if it were offline and executed correctly, check out the massive singleplayer offline RPG Morrowind.
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The game gets good when you reach high levels
I only play Everquest when I get free trials, so I never really have the chance to get to those high levels, and therefore never have the chance to get to the good stuff.
As you said, it seems to be mostly about teamwork. I think thats a good thing. The biggest part of being an MMO, is the socializing and teamwork. If you prefer to work alone, then thats what singleplayer games are made for ;).
And Morrowind is a fantastic RPG... Imagine a Massively multiplayer version of The Elder scrolls...
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unfortunatly i cant say i tried EQ, i never got the change to play one of its trials :(.
But i do know how PS is gonna be and i played loads of other mmorpg\'s. Teamplay.....yes its very important in mmorpg\'s and i agree, why would you make a mmorpg if there isn\'t any teamplay abillity in it? It\'s what mmorpg gives that addiction (for me).
There are always players around who like to travel and/or train alone. This must be available also, wandering alone in a big world also has something nice and luckely PS will offer both option
Abaou the quests, PS will have some simple quests for the beginners, but dont stand still with your mouth open if you dont understand a quest anymore. What we would like to see is that real die-hard players are really gonna roleplay, this makes the game 300% more fun. So the harder quest will ask a lot of patience and time, you will need to find out what exactly the \'Stone of Red Sun\' is and where to find it. These answer can for instance found by asking npc\'s and ofcourse searching the books of our old library Jayose.
PS will have the complexity for those who like it, but will also offer the \'easy-play\' for less diehards :)
-Xolon-
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Originally posted by Silverblade
Imagine a Massively multiplayer version of The Elder scrolls...
I have imagined that... it would be quite amazing.
Don\'t get me wrong, I do enjoy the multiplayer, socializing, and teamwork elements of MMO games, but I cant do it in such a poorly designed environment. I might like to ask some people to join me in a quest, but since EQ quests are pointless and joyless, there\'s really no point. And I can find no reason why I should join one Guild over another, nor do I even see a way to join a Guild. Guilds should be part of the RPG experience, not just another name for a clan that aimlessly raids bosses in hopes of gaining money, items, experience, or levels.
Perhaps instead of player created guilds, there could be developer set guilds that players could work their way to the top ranks of? ...or both
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Totaly agreed about the guilds, I would like to see a lot more guild roleplaying, rather than just trying to become the most powerful clan.
About the developer set guilds;
I have never thought about that, and I doubt many people have. A very interesting concept which should definitely be explored further. I personally cant imagine having both player created guilds, and developer created ones in the same game world, but it is definitely worth thinking about.
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I have had the same experience with Everquest. I played the game for about a month before giving up. The quests were silly and all I ever heard was , \"It gets better at higher levels.\" Well, it should be enjoyeable at the lower levels too. In addition, I think party\'s are great. I like working/hunting in them, but I HATE being forced into them. Especially for spell casters, EQ forces you to group or you can not advance. If I want to sit down and play for two hours, I spend half my time finding party members.
UO\'s quest system was even worse. In fact it is almost non-existant. The saving grace is that there are no levels. Its all skills and there is a skill cap. You can only get so powerful, thus \"high level\" areas are more about the player\'s use of the character and grouping if possible. While I do not support a capped skill system for PS,but it does leave the game quite open to all styles of play.
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abemore I feel you. I was just addressing those same feelings within my old guild before I closed it down.
But i think the reason most guilds do that is because they careless about socializing. Its all about beating the hell out of the game and other players. This is true because i myself am a competition fiend. but I unlike other people dont get pleasure out dominating unfairly. I like fair or challenging competition & Guilds with a broad game range (guilds that play more than one game) usualy are all about kicking ass , at all costs and dominating. this is just natural of guilds that play alot of games. there everywhere and you can\'t stop them from playing, all you can do as players is try to have fun, its up to the devs to make the game allow for far play and since this is a work in progress we can all help make this game the best through trial and error .
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Honestly the main reason the game is better at higher levels is cause you start understanding things much more. When you first start out you know nothing and must learn things. Once you start to level you gain skills and abilities and start to get a feel for what your class is meant to be like. Then you start exploring more as things become less dangerous to you and you find out things about the histopry of the world you live in. As you grow more you start to travel and see distant lands and meet with new people. With nerw lands come new monsters and new areas to explore.
Yes the first quests you start on are a bit silly but they are simple erand runs so to get you used to how you activate and progress into a quest dialog. As you progress the quests not only get harder to do but are even harder to unlock. You have to start being creative in how you talk to NPCs to see what they have to say.
So basicly the first 20 levels in EQ are learning fases and by the time you hit 20 you will have a new respect for all the work you went through. You get rewarded with a surname and start looking forward to your most powerfull line of skills to come.
It is a basic realist path to go through. After all you had to learn to crawl before you could walk and then you had to walk well befopre you could learn to run. It is all a learning proccess and if you look at it as such, rather than just want to be powerful right off the bat, you will take your time and find there is more things in the EQ world to enjoy rather than hack and slash, good gear, and gaining power. It truely is another world.
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I\'m going back to actually read the thread, I just had to say I\'m really happy to see you Abe :D
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heh, nice to see you too Kada :)
(also, nice to see someone cleared out the potentially offensive posts... *looks squinty-eyed at Venge* ;) )
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I thought about creating a guild for quite some time on ps. It would be alot of work and worth it if you have a great bunch of players... but I just cant do it. I have played that way in almost every other game I have played and I want to be the mysterious female player in ps. Of course still working at Kada\'s bar, but heck, I dont want to be tied down to a big group of people. Its going to be so formal in ps and alot of people will get into that and I think thats great, but there still has to be stealthy quests for loners like me. :) No?
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Yah! I\'d like to see more cool quests for us loners that can really immerse us in the world of Planeshift as a wandering wizard or rogue or mysterious ranger.
But of course when the need arises, It would also be SO COOL if i could say something like, \"You have my sword\" or \"You have my bow\" :)) heheh
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:))
It would be really nice to have a role playing reason to group. And the entire group could recieve exp. upon completion of a quest.
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EQ is a hack & slash game with a long ass leveling treadmill :\\
in What I have seem PS is going to be a lot like EQ as it will be a hack & slash game, I dont know about the leveling in the PS though :o
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i just remebered one time i was playing crappy everquest and i was inside a house in a field browsing through some merchants goods. Well, I happened to glance down at the chat window to find that I was being killed by some kind of a griffin. When I finally tried to escape it was too late.
How did this happen? Well, apparently the griffin was flying past the house and, using its x-ray vision, saw me through the wall of the house. This, of course, angered the creature to the point that it abandoned the laws of physics and passed through the wall in order to secretly silently kill me. All the while, I was painstakingly searching through the merchants goods totaly unaware that my body was being torn to pieces. Some indication other than a line of text would have been nice.
yet another reason why EQ sucks
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It is set up that way so players dont use it as an exploit. If it didn\'t work that way then players could easily argo a mob, beat it all they could, then run inside a shed... wait to heal and then repeat. So to keep that from happening, mobs can attack you in that manner.
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I play Dark Age of Camelot, and it shows the same problems as Everquest. You need to work through endless hours of repetitive monster spawn camping to get your char to be a decent competitor.
I was ready to leave the game 6 months ago, but I found the best guild. Shadowclan. In Shadowclan you concentrate on your roleplay and manage to put a dent on all the painful levelling.
You end up realizing that many of the boring gameplay was your fault, always trying to optimize everything i.e.: Lets go just to Dungeon A where the XP rate is 23.5% higher and some monster that spawns every 457 minutes has a 1% chance of dropping the Uber-Cloak-of-Refreshing that gives you 3 points of heat resist.
In Shadowclan it\'s not that strange to go on \"suicide missions\", to areas suited to higher levels just to see them, or bring very low level characters on to epic battles unlike other guilds who would consider them a nuisance.
All in all, the painful game mechanics are still sometimes a set back on the fun.
If someone is interested on Shadowclan, visit the site:
http://www.shadowclan.com
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the first post the person asked:
Why is EQ so popular?
Well, its not the best game of course, but the most addicting. You need to spend tedious hours hacking and slashing and over the months becomes rediculous. I say we work on more strategical ways to earn skills than needless hacking and slashing for hours and hours. In the game i thought up instead of having to hack and slash forver, you build a big city with your friends and use your brain to figure out how you should build it and where your archers and knights shall patrol.
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The whole idea is to get you to play their game for a very long time. Therefore they make it addictive and repetitive. If you could advance up and finish quickly, what would be the point in that? You would just move on to the next game. If you want that, play Final Fantasy or something.
There is also no way to make 10000 unique quests and things to do. EQ already took something like 1000 man-years to build to achieve that repetition. How long do you think your way would take?
Think like a builder for a while.
What you are saying is like criticizing a skyscraper because all the floors are the same shape. There is simply no other way to do it.
- Venge
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rathma, quit posting about the game you thought up.
This forum is for PLANESHIFT, not your imaginary game.
and this thread is for finding out why EQ is so popular... you quoted me yourself. Please dont turn the topic into something that belongs on the wishlist.
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I quit EQ just before Christmas. I Loved some aspects of the game, and hated others.
Playing regularly with a group you know, people you actively seek out online, is the best experience going. The reason I quit is that you need to stay together in terms of level, or the group spends too much time trying to protect the weakest members of the group (If you get too far from the main group level you dont even get experience for the kills). As I liked to play several characters I lost touch with any group all my characters were weak compared to their one character they played nearly all the time.
I ended up with 8 characters ranging from level 13 to level 20, where they ended up with one at level 40+ and maybe one or two others they played infrequently.
Playing solo is one of the least enjoyable aspects of playing a mmorpg, I ended up playing too often in groups of strangers, you still feel out of the group even if they are happy for you to join. A lot of interaction will be based on prior shared experiences.
EQ is biased towards people who get pleasure from being the first to reach a high level, complete a difficult quest, etc. When you get to the mid teens and into your twenties the risk / reward that got you hooked on the game, starts to swing too far to the risk side, and consequently I found it frustrating to solo past those levels. In a group you maintain the risk / reward balance, so the addiction continues.
The game is all about risk and reward - you risk losing experience by taking on a monster around the same level as yourself, if you win you get a great big feel good by getting experience and loot. It\'s a guaranteed addiction so long as you get the right balance between risk and reward.
I loved doing quests, but most were impossible solo, or they would give a pathetic reward for the level you needed to be to complete them solo. I quit because you could not get the enjoyment being a solo character, and my inability to decide on a single character to play, I loved the different aspects of the characters. I did not want to sneak around as a rogue all the time, or be an enchanter all the time, or be a Warrior all the time.
The best characters for me were the Necromancers ( I played 3 - Iksar, Human, Dark Elf) and the Beastlord, both of these character types have a good pet the meant that together we could take on some higher level monsters before the risk / reward went too far to risk. My Iksar Necromancer and Vah Shir Beastlord were the only characters that I could get to level 20 to give them a surname.
If I had met a group of people like myself who always wanted to play multiple characters, then I would still be playing EQ now. We would have been able to group regularly and form the in game friendships that really make a mmorpg a fantastic game to play.
My greatest hope for a mmorpg is that any character can learn any skill from any class so you can mold a character to be exactly what you want. My AD&D characters are never single class characters, they are usually comprised of two or three classes, one main, one about 50% of the main and often a third to get access to the base level skills of a third class.
Just my two pennies worth, while desperately waiting to see the next release of Planeshift. Keep up the good work everyone, it\'s looking great so far.
Brian
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Two thoughts here, Krewl:
a) MMORPGs all reward people who stick to a character. If you keep switching, you will end up with a big pile of mediocrity, no matter which game you play, including PS.
b) If you like to solo, MMORPGs are not for you. They are structured to be social, and that is what devs like me find interesting about them. If I didn\'t like the \"MM\" in MMORPG, I would be working on an open source Resident Evil or GTA or NWN clone.
- Venge
p.s. I deleted all the stupid posts which followed Krewl\'s posting, and I will continue to do so from now on. I\'ve had it up to here with the complete inanity now, which I feel is chasing off the smart contributors to this forum.
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people keep saying, \"dont play a MMORPG if you like to solo\"... but i dont think they fully understand what is ment by, \"i like to solo\". You see, its still an RPG application. There are conformists that join the big groups/armies and are often required to follow an extra set of rules. But, there are also those that choose to be the lone wolf and travel the world by themself or with only a trusted friend. It is appealing to be a \"soloer\" in a world of \"groupists\". When your run into another while adventuring, you can sometimes stop for chat or a heal or an exchange of supplies which is also enjoyable.
So, Venge, when you say, \"If you like to solo, MMORPGs are not for you,\" I\'m going to have to dissagree with you, because I like to solo and MMORPGs are for me. Soloing does not automatically mean anti-social, nor does it mean a dislike of the \"MM\" in MMORPG. If fact, everyone is here because they like MMORPGs.
EQ does not allow me to enjoy it, but I have the utmost faith that PS will be much improved over that mess.
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rathma, quit posting about the game you thought up.This is for Planeshift
Hmmm...thats odd....i could have sworn this whole thread was just on everquest.
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Just to clear up one post, the reason the mobs could go through doors is not due to exploits although it could have been used as one (not any more however since for a long time now you have been unable to cast through walls, and mobs heal up to 10 times faster than a player.) the main reason was due to teh complexity of teh AI had they incorporated path finding in the mobs, its easier to live with a mob going through a wall rather than code its AI so it can walk around it, not to mention it helps reduce teh network lag since the mob takes the last position of its highest aggroed enemy as its destination, no need to send lots of data on the path teh mobs takeing.
heh... Ive been jumped a number of times by griffons and even silvermane himself in Karana. but a level 30-40 mob versus a 56th levle Beastlord and his 49th level warder... you do teh maths, grilled chicken anyone?.
Best Fight ive done solo was doing teh kromrift millitia pants quest, if it wasnt for the add of a wayward frost giant elite i would have taken out teh named mob very easily... a friendly Necro rooted it for me at around 10% health, was a close fight and a fun one to.
and now for a \"You know your guild raid to chardok is screwed when\" moments...
Opps wasnt me (http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~avocite/EQ000055_2.jpg)
FooFoo teleported into teh next room, and the Sarnaks didnt like the intrusion very much. Much /boogling insued, although i was one of teh last to die, fighting to teh last hp. Screenie only shows about half the mobs that finaly arrived at our camp. heh
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I quit EQ about a year ago. My \'main\' (my primary character, although serious addicts typically play 6 or so hehe) was a Rogue, and let me tell you, that was both the most excrutiating, and most rewarding gaming experience of my life.
But I will never, ever, ever, ever play another MMORPG like EQ again.
It is, as many others have pointed out a \'treadmill\'. The same repetitive actions, over and over, have the same, mostly predicatable, results.
I\'ll just break it down, list-style.
The boring parts:
Killing the same critter 9000000000 times to hear a 16bit PCM of a bell go off (later replaced by a louder, better quality bell in an upgrade. yay?)
Killing the same critter 9000000001 times to get enough money to by \"A sword\".
Playing a \'rogue\' who could do none of the following effectively, or in an interesting way: pick pockets, open chests, find things, disarm traps (what are traps?) unlock doors (yeah... but why? oh... they\'ll add it two years later in an expansion. Expansion Feature: \"A few doors matter now\".
Taking 900000000 hours to kill 9000000000 critters that mattered.
Any trade skill. (putting 900000000 things in a box with 90000000000 other things to get 1000000000 things that no one wants or cares about).
In other words, all the no-fun parts mimicked real life.
The fun parts:
Completing a difficult quest. (rogues had some good ones. They weren\'t all \"go get me this\". Some of them were \"go get me these 27 things, figure out this riddle, and then come back and tell me, and maybe I won\'t stab you in the back for your trouble.)
Completing a difficult task that REQUIRED you do it \'solo\' (rogues again)
Completeing a difficult task that REQUIRED you do it with 9000 other people (Dragons, Gods, etc.)
Knowing that when people saw your level, you could (if you so chose) be proud, because you EARNED it (unless you were power levelled... or bought your character on ebay... or knew a GM _really_ well..... or WERE a GM.... or a Guide.... well you get the idea).
Making friends while overcoming obstacles, fighting back to back in deep, scary dungeons, and winning either glory or despair.
In other words, all the fun parts of EQ mimicked real life.
Now... Here\'s why I won\'t play an MMORPG like EQ again.
I HAVE a real life. I like my fantasy fantastic, and my reality real.
That said, beyond chatting with friends, what is the point of an MMORPG?
THAT is my question.
If it\'s to immerse yourself in a different world and escape your real life for a time.... how much of real life\'s style of problem do you want to deal with? And if you get rid of those problems (tedium and horrible consequences to your failures), what goals will you have in the game?
If it\'s to hang out with friends, and make bonds.... Why do we need a 3d interface to our chat room?
And I\'m sure there are many, many many many other reasons, but of course, those are the ones I typically hear mentioned.
I enjoy a bit of strategy, I like playing with systems, I enjoy a good 3d model with a lovely texture and mesh, I like hearing spiffy sound effects, I love reading (or hearing, or taking part in) a good story, I love solving riddles, and sometimes, dangit, I just want to kill something. And get the girl.
And I like pretending I\'m someone I\'m not to the point where I ALMOST (looks over should for men in the white coats) believe I am that person - so that i gain insight and perspective on my own life and inner workings.
The thing I decided that I really don\'t like, and that MMORPGs primarily provide (essentially by playing to the lowest common denominator re: The Sims and EQ) is boring arse tedium and a \'risk versus reward\' scenario.
SO (deep breath).... I\'m looking forward to seeing Planeshift arrive. It looks to be the coolest open source project anywhere. But the true venue of role playing will probably forever be the small group of friends around the kitchen table, or some client that emulates that.
Unless you guys do something reovultionary that I, in my infinite (and humble) wisdom haven\'t thought of.
;)