PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Abemore on January 24, 2003, 10:25:27 am
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A system to keep track of how much a player is hated.
If there is someone constantly being an ass, people can give him Hate Points (or something similar). When a player accrues enough Hate Points, they will have a visibly different appearance (so people will know not to deal with him), and NPC will react differently toward them (items can cost more, be less friendly, etc.). This can easily be regulated so one person cannot give another a hundred million hate points.
I imagine the Hated System could work somewhat like the grief system used in the upcoming MMOFPS PlanetSide and detailed here: http://planetside.stratics.com/content/intro/grief_system.shtml
again - this is a good idea *waves hands hypnotically*
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This system could be eisily abused...
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I like the idea, but (as Aelya ponted out) it is easily abused. With possibility of 1337 guilds, it could become a common practice for the entire guild to \"hate\" everyone that joins its rivals. For the system to work, you would have to be hated by the majority of the game (or maby just a LOT of people) before anything bad is done to you. People would also have to have a limit on the number of people they can hate.
It\'s kind of like a /. mod in a MMOG.
Karma: Good, mostly due to the fact I don\'t grief yo\' l33t @ss!
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another simple way this could be regulated (and I\'d hoped some of you would pick up on this) is by restricting entire guilds from giving one person a hundred million hate points. If you\'d followed the link on the PlanetSide grief system, you would have seen that \"squads\" (ie. guilds) must police their own members.
In any case, a properly designed system like this might reduce the number of people that play only to ruin other peoples fun. And a PROPERLY designed system would not be easily abused.
Perhaps guilds could subscribe to their own unique hate system that the general community does not use... any design flaws discovered can easily be fixed.
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Originally posted by Abemore
If you\'d followed the link on the PlanetSide grief system, you would have seen that \"squads\" (ie. guilds) must police their own members.... And a PROPERLY designed system would not be easily abused.
Actually, Stratics was down when I tried the link.... Regardless of whether formal guilds are restricted from voting the same, non-formal guilds and groups of friends can still do the same thing. I agree and anti-\'grief\' system would be valuable, but it might be fairly hard to keep the system itself from becoming the grief tool.
Alright, so what is a proper design? Let\'s reason all this out for a PS relevant system:
How do you keep someone from lying about you and organizing a hate campaign to get you banned? Would there be \'liked\' points too? How does someione get rid of unjust points without spamming the GM\'s? Do points \'decay\' over time? What other concerns are there?
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I feel like I might have annoyed you. :D My apologies if I did. That was not my intention, but I suppose we could continue...
I don\'t think people would listen to someone screaming that joeshmoe is a asshole... its not their concern, nor do they have the proof because joeshmoe could say the same thing back making a stalemate. And it should take a very large non-formal guild or group of friends to cause a player any trouble. Hate campaigns can be reported to GM\'s if they get too out of hand. Another possible safeguard against this is that a player can only be hated so much per hour. The player wont have access to this hate limit, so he cannot abuse it. Perhaps you must also be within chat range to send a hate.
Hate points should decay over time so there is no possibility of organizing a campaign to reduce hate... you\'re stuck with it until goes away on its own.
It is appealing to me to see a player that is universally hated by all. Banning should not have to be a worry for these people except in the most extreme cases where it affects game enjoyment and there are many complaints made about them.
This system is the equivilant of gossip. I dont like joeshmoe, I tell everyone including NPC\'s and nobody much cares... 500 people dont like joeshmoe and tell everyone including NPC\'s and people start to believe them and care, and sell at inflated prices... unless perhaps the NPC is not liked himself...
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hey why dont we just make a pk system so if you hate someone you can fight them instead of put them on your hate list... rofl... oh yeah your on my hate list but not like i can do anything about it your just on my hate list lol... am i like the most hated here or what?
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All the truly hated people have not shown up in a long time. so its been pretty peaceful. I wouldnt recommend becoming hated around here though ;)
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Originally posted by Princess Aelya
All the truly hated people have not shown up in a long time. so its been pretty peaceful. I wouldnt recommend becoming hated around here though ;)
I\'m not trying to become hated... people start flame wars over my idea... alright so most here on this forum don\'t like pking... so you have to put me down for trying?
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What people are upset about is the fact that they tell you \"no\" but you persist. That annoys people and therefore makes them dislike you. And besides that, no matter what people says, open PKing will not be in the game. Everyone is sick of telling people that.
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Originally posted by Abemore
I feel like I might have annoyed you. :D My apologies if I did. That was not my intention, but I suppose we could continue...
You have not annoyed me, I\'m just discussing the topic and tying to help you flesh out the solution. I like your idea, I\'m just trying to find a implementation that is very hard to exploit.
Decaying points might work, but do they decay in game time (while you are playing) or real time (whether your on or not). At what rate do you think is optimal?
Would people only have so many points each day? Do you get more points-a-day as you play the game?
What about people in the public\'s eye? Some people would try to \"hate\" someone just because they are a \"visible person. A good example would the leader of any large organization (formal or not). People that don\'t get in, would just \"hate\" the leader.
This brings up another point : Is there some point at which you are immune? I don\'t know if the game has a seperate \"karma\" system in the game yet, but a good deeds thing (roleplaying wise) could help increase your decay rate. Perhaps, if you achieve a ceratin number of skill points, your rate increases too (catering to veterans over those who are new to the game).
Lastly, you mentioned two different effects for your system: physical appearance and inflation of prices. The prices thing is very \"UO karma\"-like. What other ways can you see NPCs treating you badly? Would you be barred from certain places? Attacked on site if hated enough?
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hehehe, i\'m thinking of the morrowind \"bounty\" system, you get a price oin your head based on what you did. if you stole a loaf of bread, the guards won\'t actively come after you, but if you slaughter a busload of nuns, they won\'t bother with the fines and jail time, they just try to kill you (of course since most nuns are tougher than town guards for some reason....)
you might try a little of the carrot and the stick - hate points and like points, both of which eventually decay(after like a month real time) but also cancel each other out....
Jessyn
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kinshadow, I\'ve written a small amount of code for PS, but I\'m not a Dev, so it seems meaningless to hammer out all the details of a system that might never make it into the game... but this does seem like a good philosophical exercise
I just figured this would be a very RPG-like element. It seems common to have those that are universally disliked... people gossip, \"you dont ever want to run into Maddog Smith in an alley\" ... \"this guys got quite a bad reputation.\" Althought it would be nice to have Like Points (\"everybody likes Tony the Tiger; he\'s great!\"), I can see those being abused more than Hate Points. It would be beneficial to everyone to have Like Points and everyone would have no problem helping eachother out IMO to get some. So, I think it would be difficult to have only a Few liked people.
answers to kinshadows questions:- while i think game time or real time point decay is a judgement call, I personlly would go with game time. So a player could go hide out somewhere until people forget how bad he is.
- not sure what you mean by points-a-day... veterans and beginners should have the same number of points possible
- If people would really hate the leader of an organization (even though i dont think they would), then this is an RPG usage of hate points, and that would be a downside to being the leader of an organization. If someone was immature enough to hate this leader of an org. because he didnt get in, then there is a good chance that he has hated others before, and the leader im sure would just hate him back like the others before him have probably done. This immature player would eventually develop a hated reputation, and I\'ve just decided that a hated player should not be able to give out Hate Points himself.
- You are never immune... people can change and veterans should not have free reign. I don\'t know about any other systems in the game (karma?), so i dont know if this system will be able to coexist with the others. I\'d like for good deeds to help you out and make you liked, but it can too easily be abused.
- as I dont like \"Kill on sight\" ever. Maybe at the high end guards could disallow you to enter some towns saying, \"we dont want your kind here.\" Some NPC\'s can maybe refuse service. Also, general NPC attitude will change toward you in how they speak. Not to mention players will trust you less, and look at you squinty-eyed. ;)
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i you would like hate points that are more powerful wen jused les often
but les powerful wen the person gives hate points evry minute ;)
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I would like to have a PC version of faction?this would be the equivalent of a hate meter.
How it will work exactly is still up for much discussion, but I figure people will belong to a number of groups, including guilds, professions?and so on. Normally they will use the average of their groups, but at times they may just want to use one list?trying to improve faction on that scale.
Also people you group with for a while and you don?t put on a hate or friends list gain in your personal faction so you might see them as ok while your guild hates the guy.
This would be very complex and have a ton of imperfections, but it would most likely mirror real life as well as any system I have seen.
If you are in pure role playing mode you go with the average, if you want to raise faction in your profession, you use that list to reflect their views?.bla bla bla.
But the big issue is, should you lose faction for grouping with a known evil doer?
If the person is cool with you, but your profession hates him, say you are a blacksmith and he has killed NPC blacksmiths, should you suffer because of that?
There is the issue that is most often debated when we discuss this issue.
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Originally posted by azeazezar
i you would like hate points that are more powerful wen jused les often
but les powerful wen the person gives hate points evry minute ;)
Can someone translate this?
Anyways, there is no need for hate system if there are moderators to warp people to hell, and ban them.
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Originally posted by Abemore
kinshadow, I\'ve written a small amount of code for PS, but I\'m not a Dev, so it seems meaningless to hammer out all the details of a system that might never make it into the game... but this does seem like a good philosophical exercise
Well, you posted the original suggestion and I think that fleshing it out could prove useful as a suggestion for other parts of the rules system. I guess I\'m a WTB WTB Settings Member (eg Talad will get to reading my app in a month or so) and I have been trying to help the hunt for memory leaks in the code, but that doesn\'t mean we can\'t contribute in other ways (rules in this case). I guess if you don\'t really care, then I\'ll stop asking questions.
As for karma, in UO they have an RP \"hate\" system where by if you do evil things (kill good PCs/NPCs, help evil people, steal, etc.) your karma goes down, likewise when you do good things (heal good people, kill evil NPCs/MOBs, give money to the poor, etc) your karma goes up. This is coupled with a \"fame\" system (seperate XP like tracker based on the things you\'ve killed and quests completed...including craft quests) to give your char a title (Glorious Lord, Notorious Fiend, etc.).
Originally posted by paxx
I would like to have a PC version of faction?this would be the equivalent of a hate meter.
I think that factions would prove as a usefull addition on the RPing side, but I don\'t think they take into account the \"anti-grief\" feature that the above hate system is addressing. Is there a way to take this personal hate into account in the factions? A faction could love a member while he causes grief to the rest of the world.
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Well to prevent abuse, it could be limited to only allow one Hate point to be added to someone per other character.
So you could only give one person one hate point, but then if someone else hated the same person, they could give him one hate point. But never could someone get 2 hate points from one person.
Also there should be a forgivness function to go with it, because mistakes do happen. :]
Also any abuse could be reported and warnings prompted upon abusers.
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Can\'t you just hate people without affecting some statistic? If you want other people to avoid a guy, just go complain and gossip about it until he is a hated enemy.
Hate points aren\'t of much use when there is no Pking, either.
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Originally posted by Aruneko
Can\'t you just hate people without affecting some statistic? If you want other people to avoid a guy, just go complain and gossip about it until he is a hated enemy.
Hate points aren\'t of much use when there is no Pking, either.
Well, under normal circumstances, there is no down side for someone who enjoys pissing people off. At least as far as the anti-grief aspect of the \"hate\" points go, it helps to create a bad side (inflated prices, limited access to public places, etc.). It is kind of like the mod system seen on internet news sites; if people don\'t like you after prolonged annoying behavior, then your posts don\'t show up by default. An ideally designed system could weed out the uber annoying l337 d00d5. IMO, the RPing aspect of such a system is just an extra bonus.
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\"Dood5\" will use this feature more than RPers, most likely, and eventually good RPers will pay the price (maybe literally, if costs are affected.)
Once the full release has come, good roleplayers will be less frequent that doodz, I\'m sure.
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Originally posted by Aruneko
\"Dood5\" will use this feature more than RPers, most likely, and eventually good RPers will pay the price (maybe literally, if costs are affected.)
Which was my original point. The big point now is how to get around this. Can you suggest a different anti-grief system? The widely held belief is \"GM\'s will do it!\", but if as this is not the case in most other MMOGs, I don\'t see that strategy working in PS. Most GM\'s have other problems (getting players unstuck, catching cheaters, etc.) and don\'t have time to play \"who said what\". A self regulating player-mass would be an ideal solution in my opinion. If your saying Abemore\'s suggestion is too vunerable to exploitation, what would work better in its stead?
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I don\'t really know... But I do know that if this system has a slight possibility of exploitation, it should be excluded, seeing that it is hardly necessary.
Maybe the computer could detect words that involve certain body functions which I will not name that the char. says, and make the character\'s costs go up. But first off, were we trying to prevent people from talking about certain things?
If not, scratch that. But its a way to piss off people who are vulgar. :D
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i just typed a lot but it didnt post, then i hit the back button and it was gone... X(
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how about there is a hate system, and hate points, but it takes a group of people to give a hate point, like you vote to hate someone, but it takes 2 more people to vote before he gets another hate point, now the more hated you are, the less it takes to get a hate point, like after a while, one or two votes gives you another hate point, and there should be good points that work the same way.
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Do shop keepers in real life get to not sell to people just because they are disliked, or not give jobs to people if they are disliked, Do you get to kill someone you dislike? All those are against the law here in America (even though all still happen daily) Why don\'t you not be a little cry baby and ignore the person and continue on?
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well honestly, we\'re not talking about america, this is a fantasy place, its outlandish, its a medeval type thing, I mean, how well could laws be enforced without any kind of recent technology, the best way to fight crime is this type of setting would be by word of mouth, and knowing who to avoid, and as for shop keepers, its not like a wal-mart with set prices, its more like a flea-market, if the person likes you, theyll give you a deal, if they dislike you, they\'re gonna try and rip you off.
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FMiddy, I know what I am talking about, the developers have told me that this will be a REALISTIC fantasy game. But I think they are smoking crack because there is a VERY big line between Fantasy and Reality, or maybe it was a thin line, I don\'t know.
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link, have you ever read a sci-fi book?
do the words scientific fiction mean anything to you?
cause if you don\'t get it, thats sad, truely, truely sad.
on another note like your gallery, when did you get a dot com site? or rather how?
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Originally posted by kinshadow
I think that factions would prove as a usefull addition on the RPing side, but I don\'t think they take into account the \"anti-grief\" feature that the above hate system is addressing. Is there a way to take this personal hate into account in the factions? A faction could love a member while he causes grief to the rest of the world.
As far as anti-grief?there are a few ways to gauge who is giving grief, details will not be given because it is possible to abuse unless we have a filter type system, but we could have some type of flag system based on the number of legitimate complaints and ignores as well as some other statistics we might get on said person.
In the end banning is the hardest aspect to create as we need to track accounts with nothing more then an account name and possibly an IP. But ideas are there to make this applicable.
The other major issue is, what counts as a hated offence, everyone has different scales and there is a time issue involved. 20 complaints in 2 weeks seems like a lot, but with 20000 players (not all on at the same time) it would only take one person with 20 free accounts to do?so it is difficult to track.
But in a perfect world, yes we hope to have a system where a player could have some grief meter?but more likely it will be a GM/dev only feature, where when an complaint is addressed we have some history of past offences and such.
Perhaps we can annotate something like a probation tag on players so people know of their pasts, these tags can disappear if no new offences happen after a certain amount of time.
But as of yet there is no complete plan till we address possible banning procedures.
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damn, I thought I\'d considered everything, but I stupidly did not consider people creating 20 or more free acounts in order to abuse the system... unless accounts could somehow be limited, and i doubt they could be, this whole thread has been a waste of time... bah, ah well
thanx for posting everyone except link ;)
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Originally posted by Abemore
... but I stupidly did not consider people creating 20 or more free acounts in order to abuse the system...
Hmmmm......there may be a way around that. If a person actually goes out and makes 20 accounts, it is doubtfull that they will actually play with more that 2 or 3 of those. Thus, the number or effectiveness of your hate points could be tied to the character\'s developement (age, total skill points, etc.) I know it was said earlier that veterans should not be given special treatment in this system, so the points could reach their max number/effectiveness after a reasonable level/time.
Also, as mentioned earlier, banning is not the only recourse. Restrictions to areas, higher prices, etc. give enough of a deterent to push out the less hard-core griefers. This could possibly optimizes the GM\'s time to \"banning\" (in whatever form) the ones that are the true problem.
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Originally posted by Link
FMiddy, I know what I am talking about, the developers have told me that this will be a REALISTIC fantasy game. But I think they are smoking crack because there is a VERY big line between Fantasy and Reality, or maybe it was a thin line, I don\'t know.
The post about thanking everyone except link caused me to seek out his comment :-)
Note:* there are people who would disagree with me on this, and I am not in charge of anything so take this all as opinion.
Link, while we want to make the world as realistic as possible?the realization is that is a misnomer, mainly due to different uses of the English language.
This game will be as realistic as possible with realism being paper and pencil RPG realism as the gauge, and I don?t mean any particular game system, just it will try and have a gritty edge to it, but in no way will this be a simulation, with one hit kills and such being the norm.
This will always be a ?game? first and ?realistic? second, I say this based on the direction and wishes of many people of the development group.
What I think was meant by realistic could also have been immersive, minimal suspension of reality, and the such.
Also as development goes on certain factors are considered in much more depth then they where at the conception of the idea.
Vision, is defiantly not lacking on the dev team, but vision is often stymied by reality :-)
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To Control the grief and hate points given out, why not have an elected group of people who get notified when a grief point is given. One or a few people from that group may go to where the dispuit is (or teleport the people in the dispuit to them), then that individual may meet with the people who were disputing and settle the matter. If they feel the offence is worthy of a restriction/ban then they can take the appropriate action. The elected group of people could be somewhat like system moderators, or police, to control the Game and not let it get out of hand.
Also, limit the number of grief points given out to 1 (per person in a time limit), and have them only be avalible in populated areas where there might be younger ones around, outside of cities i believe that you should be on your own though. IMO.
EDIT: If there is a constant dispuit i believe both parties should be given a strick warning/ban something because they would not be rping (for fun atleast)
Clover :]
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I was joking about my last comment (If you couldn\'t tell). Hitman, I have had my dot com for like half a year now.
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Originally posted by Clover
To Control the grief and hate points given out, why not have an elected group of people who get notified when a grief point is given. One or a few people from that group may go to where the dispuit
That just makes more hard work for people like GMs for a nearly useless system. I really think that we should drop this idea. If exploitation is at all possible (as I said before) its not worth it. Tell me when you have a reaaaallly good idea.
Perhaps (as Paxx mentioned) this could be a GM / Dev only feature, so that if the GMs get pissed off at a character, they make his prices be more expensive permanently. I\'m not saying people should go tell the GMs when someone\'s being an ass and get them punished, the actual players wouldn\'t be able to do anything. This is a good alternative to punishment such as jail time and XP loss.
Lets say you curse off at a GM, he sets it so that your prices cost 5% more than everyone elses, permanently, or until you do something really nice or apologize or something.
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That just makes more hard work for people like GMs for a nearly useless system. I really think that we should drop this idea. If exploitation is at all possible (as I said before) its not worth it. Tell me when you have a reaaaallly good idea.
Who are the GM\'s going to be???
Are they the devs, cause i got the impression that the devs were going to make people GM\'s but thats the devs would not be the gm\'s ?(
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i think the pr dept will become the gms later
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you\'re right kinshadow, this can still work...
It is now clear to me that this system is merely a reputation simulation, and as with any reputation players should also have the possibility of earning a good positive reputation as well. \"Hate\" Points would be the equivilent of a negetive reputation.
Here\'s how i see the reputation system working...
- Players start out with neutral reputation
- Reputation can change automatically. Positively by completing good aligned quests, or negetively by killing shopkeepers, townsfolk, etc.
In this way, it is possible for a player to choose how they would like to play the game from the beginning.
- A negetive reputation still slowly decays and is subject to all the terms previously discussed with \"hate\" points.
- It is possible to gain positive reputation points only after your negetive reputation points have decayed naturaly on their own. This means, only a player with a neutral reputation is elegable for positive reputation points.
- Positive reputation points cannot be awarded by other players as it may be used too often.
- If a player already has a positive reputation, negetive points will reduce the players positive reputation.
- Positive reputations do not decay. They can only be counteracted by negetive points.
discuss...
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Nice idea, but there can be a difference between \"well liked\" and \"good.\" Perhaps some snotty noble knight goes on a good aligned quest, how should that make him more liked? And if society is evil, then it may make him less liked. Less liked equals higher prices.
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Originally posted by Abemore
It is now clear to me that this system is merely a reputation simulation, and as with any reputation players should also have the possibility of earning a good positive reputation as well. \"Hate\" Points would be the equivilent of a negetive reputation.
Originally posted by Aruneko
Nice idea, but there can be a difference between \"well liked\" and \"good.\" Perhaps some snotty noble knight goes on a good aligned quest, how should that make him more liked? And if society is evil, then it may make him less liked. Less liked equals higher prices.
I think you have a good start on a system there, but it may need a little tweaking. I think that NPC and PC reputation tallies should be kept seperate. As Aruneko said, the interpretations of your actions may depend on your society. Thus, by completing quests and doing certain actions, then your aura/karma/good/evil/whatever is shifted more so in an appropriate direction based or your race/alignment/etc. Likewise, your \'fame\' is based of people\'s like/dislike of you. Togther the two numbers could determine your \'reputation\' in a specific area.
Perhaps another way to decrease the possibilty of exploitation is if someone shows too many people dislike (through hate points, lists, or whatever) they start to be disliked too (for being too judgmental). Thus, if they move below the neutral line (or antigrief contributing threshhold), they can no longer effect anyone\'s reputation.
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I add one to the hate meter for link. he is such a grammer geek.
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Give it up, david. Link is always like that. We all agree with him, he just expresses his opinions stronger than other people.
Just because he was the first person to insult you, it doesn\'t mean you need to make all your posts I-hate-Link posts.
On the internet, calling someone a geek is a compliment. Remember that.
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He reminds me of DingoBoy or whatever he name was, and no, your posts don\'t bother me. They are just lame.
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This may be going away from the topic of people not liking david a bit, but would it make sense to have a diffused fame system? Think about this: Fame would come from doing quests. The bigger the quest the more fame received in your current \'zone,\' but a small amount of fame would seep into areas outside the zone. Fame, in this case would be a measure of the intensity of feelings towards you and the people\'s knowledge of you, whether that makes you a hero or a villain. Other things could factor into this fame amount, like if you are caught sneaking around an aristocrat\'s mansion, or caught with a prostitute (okay, that wasn\'t necessary :D ). With this system, then, if you stayed in the same area to do everything, you may become well-known in that area, but your fame would be muted as you move away from that area. Also, a decay counter would be added to the system, and you would fade into the woodwork after a time... whether in the game or in real life (or RL for those that don\'t understand english when reading on a computer). This system doesn\'t really address the faction concerns, but those have already been well fleshed out by other mmorpgs.
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I think it should be monitored like you\'d highlight a exzcerpt of text that was hatefull and give the people hate points then they could possibly Acept of object to them in wich cace a designated mediator would see if the hate points had merit or not.