PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: MetallicSphere on January 22, 2002, 02:45:05 am

Title: Way to keep Planeshift free
Post by: MetallicSphere on January 22, 2002, 02:45:05 am
In order to keep cost of running planeshift as low as possible i suggest the PS team allows people like pepsi or coke or whomever would like to put ads in the form of bulletin boards.
This was as u walk thru town u see ads for like pepsi or sumtin. And pepsi would pay PS and that we WE dont have to pay PS :-D
good idea?
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Post by: Bill on January 22, 2002, 03:45:38 am
1: I, for one, do not want Pepsi adds in MY town!

2: Pepsi and Coke would never even care about PlaneShift because us compared to them is like a poor person\'s money compared to Bill Gates\' money. (mind you, I am not saying PS is bad)
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Post by: Kendrick on January 22, 2002, 05:38:44 am
I wouldn\'t mind a in-game adds... maybe not those big blue pepsi adds, maybe if they made it to fit the game ;)

I\'m SURE any company would love to get their adds seen by 1000\'s of players a day ;)
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Post by: Bill on January 22, 2002, 06:33:45 am
Maybe your right. Don\'t mind the last comment.
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Post by: MetallicSphere on January 22, 2002, 07:10:06 am
Im not saying that pepsi or coke would want to (im using them as examples) i mean places like gamespy or sumtin would most definetly want to put ads in town and such. u could even script NPCs to go up to large display boards in town and past the new ads up  :P
it might take down gameplay a bit but come on we want PS free eh? its definetly worth having to look at ads to keep something liek thise free.
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Post by: antonio842 on January 22, 2002, 08:53:19 am
so what your saying is the adds would be like on banners in town
towns that are in the game

or

that there would be adds like on the side
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Post by: corsairk8 on January 23, 2002, 02:55:38 am
I dont particularly like that idea, its not very roleplay like. It probably wouldnt make much money because it would be difficult to track clicks or views like with webbased advertising.
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Post by: Buechler on January 23, 2002, 03:49:40 am
Trust me If you make Banner Ads mandatory to click they\'ll work.    Once the full Planeshift game is ready to download their may be thousands of accounts; and if they all clicked the banner ads 3 times a day, there\'d be NO problem.

Another option is to get cheap servers only holding 100 players at the most, from friends.  

The Main Goal= To have Planeshift free
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Post by: Bill on January 23, 2002, 04:20:56 am
Buechler, if you haven\'t realized, clicking an add gives them about $0.01. And its not like you can go freakishly clicking around because lots of banner adds only count them every few hours. So its about 99.9% sure that sorta won\'t work.
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Post by: MetallicSphere on January 23, 2002, 05:47:31 am
Well ads in game may reduce roleplaying BUT it also gets rid of paying for the game. I know another mmorpg (that costs money) is doing this. http://www.neocron.com
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Post by: Kiern on January 23, 2002, 05:54:45 am
eh? why not just put this on the same post instead of spreading it out on different boards and different threads?
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Post by: Lenric on January 23, 2002, 11:10:36 pm
I can see the bonus of having sponsers but at the same time can see problems due to the distraction really I think it is a good idea if ps has backers willing to support it but i think it would bring to many disney roleplayers and flack if the game had in game boards stating pepsi or coke now this might work as a sideline or bar banner but in game come there would be all sorts of people talking ooc in game using the pepsi coke image as a statement Hey i can talk about computers the game why not it isnt like tthis is a real roleplaying game i mean look at that big add for pepsi right there ( I do love pepsi though ).

Lenric
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Post by: soca playa on January 29, 2002, 07:15:38 am
EVERYONE CLICK THE ADDS!!!
WAIT... DO WE EVEN HAVE ANY ADDS?
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Post by: soca playa on January 29, 2002, 07:18:17 am
actually my friends dad\'s best friend in mississippi owns like 5 tv stations and is a multimillionaire and has a freaking server in her house!!! last time i was there she said she didnt want to worry bout all that internet crap, now she has a server and doesnt even know how to use it.

Maybe you could buy it, or use it.
Title: lol
Post by: Malastare on January 29, 2002, 07:23:01 am
Quote
Originally posted by soca playa
actually my friends dad\'s best friend in mississippi owns like 5 tv stations and is a multimillionaire and has a freaking server in her house!!! last time i was there she said she didnt want to worry bout all that internet crap, now she has a server and doesnt even know how to use it.

Maybe you could buy it, or use it.



should u tell the PS team how they can contact them?!?! :P
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Post by: Cyonamie on January 29, 2002, 08:28:38 am
no one lieks to click adds, and no one appriciates 900 adds popping up on the website, what do we do? u can open a donation system, where u could donate say ever a dollar(equal to 100clicks!) and u only do that once, thats convinient and its easy, and it only costs a buck.
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Post by: kyalin on January 29, 2002, 08:30:10 am
I sure dont really wanna pay.  My parents go insane when its paying for something online
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Post by: Tearlach t'an Ailech fin Leros on January 29, 2002, 09:11:07 pm
The best thing would be if you could domate in your country currency, and to mail it with regular snail mail.
Another thing would be that you could check how much someone donated, and that you get some sort of status, (not affecting anything of course, except bragging rights  :D ).
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Post by: paxx on May 16, 2002, 01:41:17 pm
I know this is a bit screwed up, but what about bonus exp for paying customers??? Or get X exp for 10 dollars??

Some people would do it just look at e-bay.

Another possibility would be a one time charge, after 30 days of gaming, or be limited to 3 hours per day unless you paid the one time fee.

While it would be cool that is free the only other way would be to sell the server side software with customizable stuff and tools, as such anyone wanting to run their little RPG does it with this as a server, and you guys run this game as is for free, but you must support the people that buy the server software for their MUDs?it?s an idea at least, I would pay 20-60 bucks for a good easily customizable graphical mud. Never Winter Nights was being built on this premise, it is held up in legal issues. Of course you don?t have the name recognition but with some extra work you can make it so it works on a similar premise, even make it with a turn based option or something, have pleanty of GM options and such?you might want to look at the D20 license and see if you can use it, but I figure if done right you could raise a few hundred thousand dollars to keep it free, but an official organization would have to be formed and some support for users available.

Just an idea.  

Paxx

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Post by: Mark von Wagner on May 17, 2002, 05:51:36 am
The best suggestion I\'ve seen was that playing is free, but you could pay $5 for gilded armor, or a jeweled sword hilt, or other showy extras that don\'t affect gameplay but give you something to brag about.
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Post by: Link on May 17, 2002, 07:16:32 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Buechler
Trust me If you make Banner Ads mandatory to click they\'ll work.    Once the full Planeshift game is ready to download their may be thousands of accounts; and if they all clicked the banner ads 3 times a day, there\'d be NO problem.

Another option is to get cheap servers only holding 100 players at the most, from friends.  

The Main Goal= To have Planeshift free


1. Ads Generate Barely anything
2. Almost all ad companys it is against the rules to make it mandatory to click
3. a ad click only counts ONCE per day.
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Post by: malverian on May 17, 2002, 07:19:01 pm
Sometimes the ignorance of people on this board amazes me.

Planeshift is open source, it is GPL, if the main planeshift server was to start \'charging\' or \'putting banners\' or other things that the users of the game dislike, anyone can run their own server and modify it to their needs.

However, you\'d likely need to create your own maps and player models, as the artists for Planeshift don\'t want their work being used without permission.

I feel that the best route for Planeshift is to take an Openprojects.net approach to distributing server load. Many linux users have amazingly fat pipes and computers and would be willing to donate their bandwidth for free if they enjoy the game. This also gives them benefits such as faster connection (since it\'s on their computer, etc).

The servers would all be controlled by a \'central\' node. Distributed networks are the way of the future, this would cut down on cost, increase stability, and make it so the entire Planeshift world is still tied together as one (if desired).
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Post by: paxx on May 17, 2002, 08:53:59 pm
The open node is likely the best rout, though some central control would be nice?if not I would be able to make a private node and make super characters for me and my friends and then load up to other nodes.

But if later there where an open library of maps and art and all the other fun stuff, as well as good tools, with some control for ?plane shift official portals? then it could be widely distributed and maintained, some servers could come on at non-business hours and deal with large quantities of bandwidth?this could work quite well.

It all comes down to what level of control is wanted. If it needs to be central one main server or 5 for that matter all supplied by on group then they would have to charge, if it is allowed to be decentralized then it would be easily maintained. But have loose standards and varying quality.    
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Post by: KillsTheWeak on May 27, 2002, 08:14:15 pm
Um ok thats one solution, which i will refer to as the windows solution, sense thats how most freesoftware is offered on windows :) Well us linux users are a bunch of hippies that like to help eachother out and not pay for things, so heres my stab at it.

So here is my linux style solution :)

How this works, is each zone is dependent on someone donation a server to hold 100 or so people. Now to make someone actually want to donate a server, there will be a mapmaker which can place monsters from the planeshift database. Therefore each server makes there own zone. Each server would have to check the server database to make sure the next server is up. All character files will be stored on one server, and read and written when needed. I believe this would result in a huge world, which would be less laggy cause characters would be spread out :)
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Post by: DruegaR on May 27, 2002, 09:31:12 pm
Please Please PLEASE dont make us pay to play !!!
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Post by: David_HD on May 29, 2002, 08:14:28 am
Or maybe look for an actually sponsership type deal where they basically pay for everything (which really shouldn\'t amount to much on a corporate scale) in exchange for a mega-big ad on the front page and a major request to everyone who uses PS to buy their product. I\'d change my choice of softdrink if one company were keeping PS running...
Title: use clients as servers
Post by: JeroMiya on May 31, 2002, 08:31:53 am
One way you can reduce your costs is to detect broadband clients, and use some of the extra bandwidth from these clients to serve other clients. That opens up a whole can of invertebrates, but it works for gnutella and SETI, why not PS?

Jeremy Bell
-WolverineSoft Project Coordinator
http://www.umich.edu/~wsoft
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Post by: Link on May 31, 2002, 08:45:30 pm
Those broadband hosts would be to easy to modify their client and give their friends or themselves extra shtuff.
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Post by: Marduk on September 02, 2002, 12:13:44 am
okay this is just getting kinda gay.  If people feel generous, they could donate some money... paying to get purty armor is an ok idea i guess.  I\'d be willing to pay them some $$ to help out, but not to play.
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Post by: Shanky on September 02, 2002, 12:34:27 am
Marduk, a few tips for these forums, 1) dont bring back posts that have been dead for quite some time. 2) Refrain from saying anything derogatory towards any group that could be seen as bigotry (in this case, the word \"gay\" was not appropriate) this is a nondescrimintory community, let\'s try to keep it that way.
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Post by: TheGeneral on September 02, 2002, 01:20:39 am
I don\'t think anyone minds these old posts, since they have some of the good stuff ppl(some who don\'t even show up here anymore) talk about.
ONE more thing, THE most important one, refrain from spamming.
*looks at Shanky* *looks at Shanky\'s profile*
Shanky, you remind me of someone.....
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Post by: Shanky on September 02, 2002, 01:40:08 am
Do i really Alucard? eh, oh well. Anyway, i dont think a post about a topic that has been discussed millions of times, and was also recently (within a few days) needed to be brought up.
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Post by: Rageburst on September 02, 2002, 05:12:47 am
In EQ, many customers pay extra to unlock better service (game questions, moderation, tech support,...), quests, areas.

I think it would be acceptable for some people to pay to get better service... or it can be in exchange for game money (EQ currency exists... Ebay), experience, or pre-made characters.

*************************

In Shen Mui (sp?), they used a few soda companies like pepsi to sponsor their game. You can buy pepsi cans in the virtual soda can machines.
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Post by: Shanky on September 02, 2002, 05:14:24 am
Time is more important than money to the PlaneShift team
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Post by: Bigfoot on September 02, 2002, 12:16:04 pm
RageBurst:- Have you actualy played EQ before?... since none of what you said is correct.

Ive played EQ for 4 years now, the only thing you have to pay extra for are the recent additions they have incorporated such as teh Name Change service(50$ for a new name), Character Server Move service (50$ for haveing your character with no equipment allowed transfered to a new server) and the Ledgends server (A server that costs 30$ a month and has dedicated GM\'s and unique items). All of these recent additions bar the Ledgends server have been from what Ive seen and read a complete and utter flop, and the ledgend server has attracted little attention. Not realy surprising to me ^^

Customer server, techsupport, GM\'s, Quests and the like are not \"premium\" services you have to pay more for they come as standard in your 9$ errr make that 12$ now ^^ monthly fee, then again EQ\'s customer service makes the Gistapo(sp?) look like angels (waiting 5 hours for a  GM to final be told sorry we can not help you).

Just thought Id clarifiy your post (not that I like EQ myself, more of an addiction than a Like).
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Post by: Marduk on September 02, 2002, 04:57:23 pm
/didn\'t look at dates it was just new

/isn\'t homophobic so won\'t use slurs n e more

/likes cheese with a passion
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Post by: Vengeance on September 03, 2002, 04:07:50 am
Actually, EverQuest does have some sort of \"Ultra Deluxe\" edition which costs I think $49.95 a month, and lets you go on custom quests, for custom items, and have special customer support.

I about crapped myself when my wife said she was interested in signing up for that...  ;-)

- Vengeance
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Post by: Shanky on September 03, 2002, 04:36:59 am
You\'re right Venge, it\'s called Legends, you get better servers, better items, more and better quests, better tech support, the whole 9 yards, for an extra $30 a month... 8o
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Post by: Bigfoot on September 03, 2002, 08:10:09 am
I thought that is what i said?...

you dont get better quests however, they have dedicated GM\'s for the server that make constant story events for the players, the ingame quests are the same as the normal servers. And many of the items players want to see are made for them and there are far more unique  items and weapons armor etc due to this. Franctly i cant see why they have to charge extra for it when its some thing you should get as the main package (Verant and Sony however try to make as much money from there ever dwindling franchise as they can). Like I said i dont think many people use the ledgends server... most like yourself gag at the idea of the exorberant prices.
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Post by: Cyonamie on September 03, 2002, 11:02:23 pm
Stormhammer (legends) does have an extra zone, the jagged pine forest, its like lvl 40 plus

my neighbor has 3 accounts on legends, how he pays for that i dont know, but any way, he has been in there, he said its nothign great
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Post by: Spartan8 on September 04, 2002, 01:35:34 am
I thought we already figured out the money thing.

Catalians wark as slaves at petrock factories in hopes to revive the fad...
Title: dudes omg
Post by: AfricaX on September 05, 2002, 01:24:53 am
I have been saying the idea of at the Loading screen instead of the picture of some place in Yliakum you could have an advertisement.

It\'s a kick arse idea and won\'t ruin the In-Game Experience

Whats wrong with you people lol it takes an idiot like me tofigure this out?
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Post by: Link on September 05, 2002, 11:55:06 pm
Ok, maybe you dont get how ads work, if you put them in game you dont pick where they go, they will have to be someone where the person playing will always see them, like on the bottom of the screen.
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Post by: Xolon on September 15, 2002, 05:07:00 pm
I like the idea of Paxx.
paying a little fee, to gain some more hours gamming a day.

But on the other hand, let the Dev\'s first make their game, alpha and beta test it.. When that all goes well and Ps has got a nice repuation. Then u can think about how to continue with maybe some p2p in it.

Dont forget the main goal of the ps team;

Trying to make a good rpg online, wich is free of charge.

If they really cant pay fir it, then they should discuss a maybe p2p mode. But not now when the game is only in Techdemo available..

-Xolon-
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Post by: Cyonamie on September 15, 2002, 05:53:37 pm
u people really burn me, rune scape is the same way, it was meant to be free, but when the greedy bastard gower figured out that people would pay to play the game, he starting charging after they finished \"beta\".
if planeshift is meant to be a free mmorpg, and if they servers r free, i will not donate a dollar to it.  sure everyone works hard on it, but they all volunteered to make a game that was FREE
read this thing, it is a quote from what gower said at the launch of runescape
http://www.gamesdomain.com/elite2/gdreview/news/3982.html
 
Quote
Andrew Gower, the game?s designer, said: \"I wrote Runescape because I felt there should be a multiplayer RPG game which was easily accessible to everyone without people having to pay a monthly fee or make a huge download. I also wanted to prove what Java is capable of, as many people told me it couldn\'t be done. Now I\'ve shown that it can!\"
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Post by: Xolon on September 15, 2002, 06:50:56 pm
this might is a bit off topic, but i think Andrew did succeed.

He showed the world in what he was capable;
making a free java game, wich is played by thousends of players.

ok, there is an extra abillity to pay for some more, but imagine the costs he has to keep those 8+ servers running each day..
Big rs fans are willing to pay that $5 a month to help Andrew keeping up his servers. And Andrew in return adds new things to the game for those players..

I think he shows us the way multi playing can or should be;
Free servers for all and if u like to help the Dev\'s u can donate a bit to help them maintain the servers..

-xolon-
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Post by: Link on September 16, 2002, 12:59:31 am
Yeah homeless people live off donations so can the developers. (sarcasm)
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Post by: Cyonamie on September 16, 2002, 04:07:23 am
link, that is a good point.... :P
but if you guys think about it, there are tons of people out there with servers that would be willing to help (maybe a few in return for something ingame)
 :rolleyes:  :P
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Post by: Xolon on September 16, 2002, 09:30:11 pm
lets let them make an alpha game 1st  ;)

-Xolon-
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Post by: cmhitman on September 16, 2002, 10:31:19 pm
i hope they keep the idea
 of having it at the loading screen.
because all we would have to do is just replace it.
 :)

ps.
please don\'t make it so that we can\'t take them away and only let the ad pop up once a day ur sum\'n
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Post by: Gloin on September 17, 2002, 10:49:47 am
You could possibly put the [pepsi] ads in the tavern, like you can put then inconspicuously on some mugs or little picture frames...

unless the idea of ads in game has already been debunked!?   ?(
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Post by: Gion on September 17, 2002, 11:52:02 am
Aaah Glion.

Looks really like my name.

Lets hope we dont get any problems because of that in the future.

Gion.
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Post by: Link on September 18, 2002, 12:12:40 am
Quote
Originally posted by Gloin
You could possibly put the [pepsi] ads in the tavern, like you can put then inconspicuously on some mugs or little picture frames...

unless the idea of ads in game has already been debunked!?   ?(

As I have said before, Ads dont work that way, You have to have to pretty much open and stuff the whole time, you cant just stick them in the corner and expect them to pay you.They have rules oh where you have to place them, you dont really choose.
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Post by: entomophobiac on September 18, 2002, 12:52:28 am
Advertisement is a good way. But in-game advertisement is apalling...

A possible solution to the problem could be to put the advertisement in a startup splash-screen (just like Quake III shows you the startup of its engine). The PS team could then base funding issues on the amount of players. Thus, any company that wants to put their logo on the splash-screen would have to pay $X per player that is registered on the Planeshift server.

This is way better than having advertisements inside the game.
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Post by: Xolon on September 18, 2002, 07:31:13 am
what u guys think of sticking to one of the temas main goal?

Making a good mmorpg, wich has no costs for its players...?
Why do u all are so worried about p2p, when the intentions are clear of the dev team...

-Xolon-
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Post by: Link on September 18, 2002, 11:28:21 am
Well Xolon, This IS a free game, Since its free that doesnt mean money is just going to poor in on its own, we are just trying to help them out a little by suggestions ideas, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT THEN DONT READ THIS THREAD!
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Post by: Vengeance on September 18, 2002, 08:57:48 pm
It is a known fact that in-game advertising will not generate any appreciable revenue at all, and the PS team is not pursuing or even thinking about anything like this.

- Vengeance
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Post by: Link on September 18, 2002, 11:52:56 pm
We could go panhandling or something. All of us dress up as hobos and go beg for money on the streets.
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Post by: Kiva on September 19, 2002, 01:19:13 am
What a nice idea, Link. Why don\'t you just do that, and then we\'ll find something more valuable to do with our time :D
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Post by: Kiern on September 19, 2002, 02:26:30 am
lol grono, on a mean streak today or something?




j/k  :D  just giving the stupid comments what they deserve i guess  :P
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Post by: Kiva on September 19, 2002, 04:48:59 pm
Mean streak...? :tongue: Heh! Where did you get that from? :P Im never mean... I mean... I wouldn\'t... Would I ? Anyways, that doesn\'t matter. The point is that Link said something silly, and I just gave my comment to that silly thing. Anyways, you guys should be ashamed of making a such topic as this. It has been clearly told that \"Planeshift WILL be free!\". And _IF_ they want ANY kind of help on making money, I\'m sure they will post so. But until that happens (I hope it doesn\'t, and so does most other people here), don\'t even talk about it. And my reason for saying this is, that I\'m basically very tired of people talking about \"Oh no! It\'s gonna go pay2play sometime!\" or \"It can\'t stay free, and I happen to have figured out a date in my mind that I think it will get pay2play, so I think I will gain some fame by saying that I know something about things that I don\'t know anything about\" ... Errr... Anyways, you know what I mean :D

In short : Unless the DEV team says anything about not being free anymore, don\'t talk about it, \'cause it wont happen... Unless they say so. :)
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Post by: NapalmDeath on October 20, 2002, 04:46:34 am
Before people actually start paying for anything, we have to actually be able to PLAY the game and actually be worth it, and it should be so we can see the different armors were wearing, not like some mmorpg\'s where everyone looks the same even thought they\'re wearing different armors and stuff, so its gotta be worth it   :rolleyes:

Second....make it so people who dont pay only get like 10 hours tops a day to play, and the people who do pay get unlimited till the time expires and they gotta pay again, if they dont choose to pay anymore they get the 10 hour thing, see what im getting at...

Make the game so its FAIR, i dont think people want it so you HAVE to pay to play, cause that would be just gay :evil:
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Post by: Kiern on October 20, 2002, 05:10:03 am
dude, its going to BE FREE for EVERYONE

**kicks**  :P
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Post by: Beholder on October 22, 2002, 08:53:11 pm
They could do what DAoC are doing and have store on the website which players could pay REAL money for powerful items, though this could lea to super N0oBs :(

Its just an idea
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Post by: Aruneko on October 23, 2002, 12:14:03 am
I don\'t think that should be implemented.  It detracts from the game.  I have the feeling the dev\'s want a game where, if you want an item, you go out and hunt for it, not a game where you listen to global chat \'till you see it for a good price.

Besides, it makes it harder for poor people like me.
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Post by: Xandria on October 24, 2002, 12:12:29 am
As much as it does detract from gameplay, I don\'t think there is any way you will be able to stop people from paying real money for items.  I remember when all of a sudden, people started selling Diablo II items on Ebay.com and making hundreds of dollars in doing so.  So as long as people can do stuff like that, you\'ll probably still have super-n00bs.
Title: My Opinion
Post by: Enum on October 24, 2002, 05:30:34 am
I think that we should borrow from RuneScape a bit, and implement a system in which a special area would be setup for members (who pay a small fee), however, there would be no super-items or outrageous benefits for members, so it would be more of an inticing donation in essence.

We could also perhaps run the members on a faster server if the idea of a members only zone does not work. But, the idea of having special weapons and stuff seems unfair because it would make the real world impact this world, which I do not think we should have.

That\'s just my opinion though...
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Post by: Redner on November 12, 2002, 11:41:09 am
They should accept donations.  Donations would be used to pay for the servers, but those who don\'t donate won\'t be any less off than those who do (For example, they shouldn\'t be forced to use the \"Free Server\" or limited on the number of hours they can play per day).

But those who DO donate could be given something in the game that looks nice, but doesn\'t actually affect gameplay in any way.  For example, if houses are implemented, they could have some sort of sign in front of it.  Or maybe they could be given a pretty medallion.

Servers cost money.  Somehow, the creators will need to get money.  We\'ve already ruled out in-game advertisements, and ads on the web don\'t generate crap for income.  I think this donation system would work great.  Ask for donations, and then reward the donator with a small token that will just show other players \"I\'ve donated.\"

-DJ
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Post by: Mark von Wagner on November 12, 2002, 11:54:24 am
Quote
Originally posted by Cyonamie
u people really burn me, rune scape is the same way, it was meant to be free, but when the greedy bastard gower figured out that people would pay to play the game, he starting charging after they finished \"beta\".


The reason that they started charging for Runescape is that it got too big to be maintained for free.  It costs around a million dollars a year to run Runescape at its current size.  Back when I started playing, there were maybe 3000 players, so the Gowers could afford to pay for the server out of their own savings, and could moderate the game themselves.  But now, there are at least 250,000 regular players, there are fourteen world servers, plus the web server and at least one backend server, and the game is big enough that it needs full-time, paid moderators to try to keep a lid on the problems.
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Post by: Fiere on November 12, 2002, 12:58:33 pm
I really HATE the idea of paying real money for game items , its ridiculous. Completely ruins the game when the idea should be to earn them by deed or combat.

But as Mark has explained,running a truly massive MMORPG isn\'t cheap. If this means we have to contribute for all of the PS teams hard work I have no problem with it. If they can find a way to survive on donations all the better.
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Post by: Redner on November 13, 2002, 07:04:46 am
I understand not wanting people to spend real money on in game items, but the fact is that its probably going to happen anyways.  Besides, if this item has no effect on gameplay (Weighs nothing, cannot be enchanted, and for the sake of making sure it shows just that they\'ve donated, make it so it cannot be given or sold), I don\'t see why not have it.  And maybe you could make it depend on how much you give.

I like the medallion idea.  And you could easily give a better-looking medallion for more money donated.

The key here is that it would have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on actual gameplay, and is PURELY cosmetic.  Most people won\'t pay money they don\'t have to if they don\'t get anything in return.

-DJ
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Post by: Pheonix on November 13, 2002, 07:29:37 am
I disagree.....
People wouldnt necissarily be buying the items just to say look ive got a cool looking item.....they would be buying it to support planeshift and to help keep it free.
Now thats a pretty worthy cause I think and worth a minor financial sacrifice
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Post by: Snodgrass on November 13, 2002, 10:40:23 am
I have bean working with linux for eight years. Plane Shift is under the GNU license. If you want to see how to make money under the GNU license there are a lot of examples in linux. The Red Hat model along with others will work.  Plane Shift is under that license.

First the definition of free means under GNU, the software is free not the service. I.E. if you are a decent computer user and can deal with complexities of running a  Plane Shift sight for a thousand of your closest friends you\'re in. That\'s also assuming you have the equipment to pull it off. However for the vast number of users it will not happen.

So then comes the second part of the GNU economy. Hosting a  Plane Shift sight will be under intense economic pressure to keep the cost down. That\'s because they are starting with a level playing field. They will be using the same software. This means that the service you get for the money you spend will be great. You can go out and get a linux distribution and most people don\'t even believe what you get for 50$ US.

The ad might work. That is since the ad company might want to host a game in an ad. Find their logo and win a trip or something.

The GNU copy left is a double edged sword. That means not just the game is out there so is the source. This means that (if or once) the server code is released its out there fore anyone to modify as they darn well please. So if an ad company wants to run its campaign with its logos there isn\'t a whole lot you can do about it. Except play maybe.

If you want to read a copy of the GNU contract, it\'s in the  Plane Shift software you downloaded. Give it a read. They have a web sight as well.

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Post by: Pheonix on November 13, 2002, 10:45:03 am
Lenux ?
Is that one of those new operating systems ? =P
Im going to assume thats a bad typo for Linux there
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Post by: Link on November 13, 2002, 06:39:29 pm
You must be a real newbie to Linux, first, you can\'t spell for crap, so you must also be a newbie to school, but since when does Linux cost $50? Almost all the Distros are free. And someone has already explained this to us. I think they said that anyone can use the engine, they can\'t steal the models, textures, or maps.
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Post by: Snodgrass on November 13, 2002, 07:47:45 pm
Well Link,

I didn\'t say the software cost $50.  I said the distribution costs $50.  There is a big difference.  The distribution comes with a whole lot of things that aren\'t under the license.  This means you\'re getting something that isn\'t free software in a distribution.   If you try to just download the Linux package you\'ve got an incredible amount of work on your hands. So a Linux distribution has the value added feature of working out of the box.  As far as spelling is concerned you\'re worse than most teachers and this isn\'t exactly a school forum.  As far as being a newbie to Linux I don\'t think so.  Quite frankly I\'d rather have a few spelling mistakes than to use profanity on a forum.  

I can\'t believe you took the bait.
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Post by: Aruneko on November 13, 2002, 09:50:24 pm
People make spelling mistakes on forums, Link.  Deal with it.
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Post by: Pheonix on November 13, 2002, 11:27:44 pm
I disagree, with you about downloading Linux being a lot of work.
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Post by: Link on November 14, 2002, 01:27:26 am
Well it\'s nice to see that you learned to spell Linux, and Downloading a ISO and burning it to a CD, is just the same as going to pick it off the shelves, there is nothing hard about it.
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Post by: Snodgrass on November 14, 2002, 12:27:37 pm
Sorry about the deception Link.  However, seeing how you tortured, rather elegant torture I might admit, the poor Newbies that needed help I could not resist.  

It won\'t happen again.  However, I appreciate the fact that you are able to find the error in the last post after Phoenix, of course, pointed it out so elegantly without a whole lot of sarcasm.  

So, let\'s get to the point of how to make money at this without charging the players.  You pointed out (and by the way it is not that your points are bad, in fact you seem to be a rather clear thinker, just boiling out the sarcasm is tedious) that the plane shift crew owns the artwork.  I did a little leg work and talked to a couple of artists and one was a pure artist, the other was a graphic artist for a company.  It seems that with pitiful little modification the art is not yours anymore.  It seems like a sad fact but apparantly copyright law is a little fuzzy when it comes to that sort of thing.  As an example, there was a credit card company that patently ripped off (alledgedly) a painting by Salvadore Dolly.  The plaintiffs that owned the painting lost!  This means those poor guys took a truck load of cash and burned it at the expense of litigation.  Unfortunately it seems that modified artwork is fairly easy to do.  If you\'ve ever played with a program called the Gimp you\'ll know exactly what I\"m talking about. I hope this answers your questions about owning the art.  

However, let\'s turn the argument on its head.  Who cares.  If somebody wants to run a game and run the software and art, that the game has to offer, it\'s the game.  If somebody wants to put their Logo in the game and host it whatever.  It\'s free.  They will probably need technical help to maintain the game and if you read the discussion about Licensing the support is not free.  This means that this group could charge a fee to help them.  Then there is the money.  Unfortunately we need product to leverage in order to make it happen.  Kind of reminiscent of the old Linux story isn\'t it?  

It\'s amazing what one night of school does for your speling.
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Post by: Vengeance on November 15, 2002, 04:27:57 am
This is simply not the case.

Check out http://www.chillingeffects.org/derivative/ to read all about derivative works and who controls what.  The FAQ link at the bottom of the page provides many useful examples, all of which point to the fact that someone cannot simply make trivial changes to our artwork and release their own game legally.

However, I\'m also not saying this will stop anybody.  The derivative works case law applies only in America, and I\'m sure other countries have different rules.  In the case of an international team, it is hard to say even what country\'s laws would apply, let alone how they would be applied.

Add that to the fact that the PS team has NO ability to prosecute anyone we think is infringing and you realize it is all basically on the honor system.  :-)

- Venge
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Post by: Snodgrass on November 15, 2002, 08:12:36 pm
This is a part of the document you recommended.  This is probably what the artists were talking about.  They are not lawyers and may find themselves in court some day over this exact issue.  However,  it doesn\'t seem cut and dry.  

Derivative Works

\"A more complicated question arises when the second creator uses only part of the original work or substantially transforms it in some way. There are many cases involving art made with Barbie dolls that raise this more difficult legal issue.\"

By chillingeffects.org

At any rate, back to the topic of how to make money... Setting up a service to help out an organization wanting to put on a meet seems to make perfect sense.  You could even put it together as a package deal.  It is unlikely that the organization that wanted to put on the event would have the skill sets necessary to pull it off.  And this is where the plane shift crew comes in.  You store people\'s characters as a separate file that could be pulled into the game.  This would give the organization wanting to work with this an instant character population.  You could work with the organization to put the advertising in.  A few suggestions on how to get the product endorsements into the game could be made by the plane shift crew.  For instance,  opening credits, finding an item that would open up a screen to some prize, the delay time between module loads when moving from section to section could have a screen with an ad and probably a lot of other things that I can\'t think of because I\'m not really good at advertising.  

So, the advantages are the plane shift group gets a little money, the player gets server time, and the modifications are relatively simple (eg. they don\'t require a whole lot of programming.)
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Post by: Vengeance on November 16, 2002, 01:24:31 am
Here is what I was talking about:

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Question: Can I take a character from a movie, like Chewbacca from Star Wars, and use it in a play with a very different plot and otherwise different characters?

Answer: Probably not.  The people who hold copyright in Star Wars own the characters as well as the plot, the filmed images, etc.  Placing a distinctive fictional character in a different context or medium is still copying that character, and therefore infringement.


This means you cannot use Planeshift races or characters in your game and try to make a different game out of it.

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Question: Can I make a sculpture based on a photograph without permission?

Answer: No. The sculpture would be a derivative work.  


This means you cannot create models of your own based on our concept art or settings descriptions.

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Question: Can I write a book of trivia questions based on a television show?

Answer: Probably not.  A court held that a book of trivia questions based on the television show Seinfeld was substantially similar to the show itself and therefore could be treated as a ?copy? of Seinfeld.  The court also held that the trivia book damaged the producers market for derivative works.


This means even fan art and fan fiction are technically prohibited without the express permission of the PS team.  This is how EQ and others control their stuff and get people\'s websites taken down, etc.

Hope that clarifies it.

- Vengeance
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Post by: Fanomatic2000 on January 10, 2003, 12:44:05 am
Here comes some commercial ideas for PS.

1. If you want you can manifacture your own Coka-Cola, Pepsi, NIKE shirt, and then you sell it to the crowd.

2. When you die you go to the Coka-Cola hell and have to walk by 200 Coka-Cola posters before you can ressurect.

3. The stadium is a perfect place for commercials. Between the fights a guy drinks a Pepsi and tells you how great and refreshing it tastes.

4. If you\'re a hight lvl cook you can make Big-Macs to sell. They will increase your stamina and your HP
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Post by: Kiern on January 10, 2003, 12:48:12 am
um...that\'s already been talked about, not sure if it was this thread since they all sound the same, but pretty much, no  :D
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Post by: kinshadow on January 10, 2003, 01:14:13 am
In-game ads are lame.  An ATI/nVidia/Intel Splash screen or banner website ads are fine, but anything else is really in poor taste.  Hopefully, the game will aquire a set of steady sponsers once it actually needs them.  Maybe MB (or the release after) will get the word out and we\'ll see some public interest. :D

On a side-note, has PS news ever been posted to /.  ?
I know the site probably couldn\'t handle the trafic, but that is a nice resource of players/devs/geeks in general to get publicity if it is wanted or needed.
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Post by: Vengeance on January 10, 2003, 05:18:36 am
We are deliberately waiting on posting to places like /. until the game is more mature and better.  My vote is to really go live with publicity when we release Crystal Blue, after MB.

- Venge
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Post by: Creathor on January 10, 2003, 10:02:08 pm
I agree complitely with Gronomist, Let\'s just stop talking about this. Unless the Devs change their minds it\'s useless. And why did we start a huge discussion about how to spell Linux, let\'s just end this conversation now.  IT\'S USELESS!