PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fayodin on August 01, 2006, 05:34:25 pm
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I have been wondering this because, I'd think that you put on some armor and it protects you.
However, we have to level up armor to get the most out of it. What exactly does training in armor do? If you train in swords, its as if you perfect your technique, learn new moves and attacks, etc. But what does leveling up armor do allow you to wrinkle it to the form of an attacking blade?? [assuming its cloth]. Just doens't make sense to me. Armor should just be a wear and go thing...and repair it once in a while.
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Well not to sound rude but have you ever put on full chain mail?? its dam heavy and you WOULD need to train it, to get used to it. Also some armour hinders your movement, so you need to train youself to get used to that. :P
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yea but its easy to get use to things like that.
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hmmm have to agree with Fyadon on this on realism.
I mean even if you have to train to get used to the armor would it give more protection becuase of the training? Would it suddenly get thicker or something?
I could imagine you would learn over time the weak spots of your armor and how to give your opponents less opertunities to hit there but thats about it and that shouldn't make a difference in most fights.
Only other thing I can think of is that you learn bettter how to take blows to fully take advantage of the armor by making blows slide away.
I would think the training would indeed decrease the minusses on speed you would get from wearing heavy armor but if you have for example your strength trained very high shouldn't this have the same effect?
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Training also includes the right technique to present your opponent a protecting part of the armor, and to block a hit in the right angle... Leather alone is not very protective when hit directly, you need to practice the right motions to dodge a hit with your protectors.
So I guess... ;)
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Training also includes the right technique to present your opponent a protecting part of the armor, and to block a hit in the right angle... Leather alone is not very protective when hit directly, you need to practice the right motions to dodge a hit with your protectors.
So I guess... ;)
that sounds a little more like agility to me.
even so, there really isn't much skill in doing that.
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well i think if you are wearing leather, with a few strong point in it. it would be common sense to know not to let somone stab you in the weka points......but then again isnt the main goal not to make sure u only get shanked in the strong points, but to avoid the entire blow ?..it makes alot more sense that instead of training armor you should have to train speed.. because well no matter how much you know if your not fast then it is not going to matter if you know where and how to take a hit anyway...agility and strength would be better options to train then to have a LIGHT armor skill to train...i mean think about it...swat teams they have kevlar flak jackets, you CAN shoot them with almost anything say a 306,308, 22,357....but they avoid the fire rather then just try to make sure u hit them in the chest and not the face lol. i mean yes they train to become used to the protection, but they usualy do that by practicing other things while wearing the armor ;)
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from another point of view: you most probably need more experience in armour to know how to buy a quality one :lol:
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from another point of view: you most probably need more experience in armour to know how to buy a quality one :lol:
Best reason I've heard so far.
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But a little flaw in my "reason" is that you'd have to be experienced in the skill before you would buy it
...or, maybe, it'd work if we'd say that it also counts as how you treat your armour and thus destroy it even more if unskillfull or keep it better in shape and/or repair it better if skilled. :innocent:
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called repair armor
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Training also includes the right technique to present your opponent a protecting part of the armor, and to block a hit in the right angle... Leather alone is not very protective when hit directly, you need to practice the right motions to dodge a hit with your protectors.
So I guess... ;)
that sounds a little more like agility to me.
even so, there really isn't much skill in doing that.
Your joking right?
You think that you get into a fight and it doesnt take practice to be able to react to blows with precision and skill, in order to not only protect yourself, but to open up your oponent in turn.
Please.
if you dont have any practice or training, with somting like that then you will Definatly get hit if your opponent is in any way capable of inflicting an attack or damage.
Other than that, I'm also not entirly sure how "training" armor works, apart from getting used to it, which would simply limit your training to like 10 levels or sothing, and you'd get messages telling you that your armor just gave you a blister.....
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i would rather the armour look after me, than have to look after it ;D
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I think the Devs oversimplified an old idea of Offense/Defense and tried to implement that, unintentionally bypassing realism in this case. Subsequently light armor became a symbol for defense, while sword, strength were its counterpart on offense. Unfortunately training defense meant training light armor which makes little to no sense (as its been previously discussed on this thread).
The quality of the armor doesn't change with time nor does active use improve the intrinsic strength of the armor. It makes far more sense that the person becomes more agile within the use a particular armor, or quicker with use, and I think that would be taken care of with the stat "Agility." However agility with each type of armor is slightly more difficult, and because they aren't the same, each armor must have its own particular technique. The stat should be more appropriately titled "light armor agility" but I'd argue that it'd be more of a function of experience and not training. Its quite possible someone in would don some chain mail and actively practice it in a room, getting better with time. I just don't see it. I'd also be hardpressed to argue that this is mutually exclusive of "Agility" itself.
I'm sure the Devs will figure it out and remove light armor in the future. It seems easier to categorize defense by a few stats, namely light armor, and then just level it up. Perhaps, I can only assume, for playability and not realism.
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(did not read ALL the posts so this mightve been said)
Most games have a few things that dont make sense and people get over it. runescape for one is the most wierd mmorpg ive ever played half of that doesnt make sense EG. u hav to be dif lvls to wear dif armors. WOW u need to be a certain class to wear a type of armor/ wepon. it would be pretty hard to make a game fully realistic and if it was you'd just get on with your own life because the computer game is the same. WHO REALLY CARES LOL the system works (i think) and thats all that matters. :thumbup:
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I read like the top half of the posts, so I'll just say: You must train with the armor type so that you know how to move effectively in it, that way you know, as others said before, how to bring strong points to bear against attacks, and how to make attacks ineffective. With leather armor, if someone gets a proper stab in, you are dead. Leather is mainly helpful against slashing attacks. So if you can move properly, you can make the thurst ineffective. You must learn how to move to use the armor effectively, and without training, you might be better off without the armor. And the training wouldn't likely be as easy as you think. It would take a lot of time and practice.
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lol that is still pointless because your not supposed to take an attack effectivly . only an idiot would do that. getting out of the way is what your best bet is. the only reason we have armor isnt to block attacks its in case they are faster then we are and we cant get out of the way in wich we wouldnt even have the time to " move " the right way in the armor.... and armor really dont constrict your movement at all. it more or less just makes you heavy, in wich stength and agility would be much more like to be needed instead of learning how to get a knife in your gut the right way
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It does make sense... sorta... I'd assume it'd be pretty hard to move while covered by plated steel. Dodging attacks would be a lot more difficult and such. Also, it really doesn't have to do with strength, for example, if you were to go out and try to play a game of basketball with ankle weights on it'd probably throw you off quite a bit. It's not that the ankle weights are that heavy, but when you're doing something that requires a lot of coordination, a little change can throw you way off.
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I read like the top half of the posts, so I'll just say: You must train with the armor type so that you know how to move effectively in it, that way you know, as others said before, how to bring strong points to bear against attacks, and how to make attacks ineffective. With leather armor, if someone gets a proper stab in, you are dead. Leather is mainly helpful against slashing attacks. So if you can move properly, you can make the thurst ineffective. You must learn how to move to use the armor effectively, and without training, you might be better off without the armor. And the training wouldn't likely be as easy as you think. It would take a lot of time and practice.
In game though, if you don't have training, you still benefit from the Armor.
I never trained my La, and yet i still recieved it's benifits, explain that.
I'd say, just don't try to explain it, or Rp.
Don't say you need to train your armor in rp, just act as if your getting a new model at each level, a better one.
So i'm at level 4 Ma, if i go to 5, i pretend i just got a new chain torso.
It may not be how it's inteneded to be, training in all, but it makes more sense in the long run.
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Training in armour reflects the ability of the character to be able to make use of the armour best. Skill in armour increases your protection because you know the best way to deflect a blow if needed (you avoid the weak points) and can move easier in the armour (i.e. you know the best ways to move in it). In RL, getting used to wearing armour might not take too long, but try running around and dodging in it and you'll find it much harder to keep balance, keep it from getting in your way, and stay fighting. Being able to fight, keep balance, stop the armour from getting in your way, make sure that your weak points aren't exposed, and using the armour to partially deflect hits which make it though, _all without thinking about it_ takes a lot of time and practise.
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hmm well read the posts and although I can see how Light Armor could be a skill atm it stiill doesn't make sence to me
For one as already said any sane warrior tries to avoid getting hit. He might chose a stance to fight in so his weaknesses are the least revealed but I doubt any one would actually train in taking blows like that in a way that makes that much of a difference.
Number two is we are fighting MONSTERS here most of the time. Not master swordsmen who are actually aiming for the weakpoints.
That you might have to wear an armor in combat for a certain amount of time or number of times for you to get used to it I think is logical.
But avoidance and moving fast is covered by agility, Knowing how to move in a fight would be covered by swordmenship or dagger or axe. Being able to move around with armor without penalties would be covered by strength.
So Light Armor in some form makes sence but a 50 rank skill as it is now? Not to me anyhow.
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Training in armour reflects the ability of the character to be able to make use of the armour best. Skill in armour increases your protection because you know the best way to deflect a blow if needed (you avoid the weak points) and can move easier in the armour (i.e. you know the best ways to move in it). In RL, getting used to wearing armour might not take too long, but try running around and dodging in it and you'll find it much harder to keep balance, keep it from getting in your way, and stay fighting. Being able to fight, keep balance, stop the armour from getting in your way, make sure that your weak points aren't exposed, and using the armour to partially deflect hits which make it though, _all without thinking about it_ takes a lot of time and practise.
I've never heard of weakpoints in Chainmail Armor, or Leather armor, both are consistant all around.
And if you talking about Dodging blows, That's Agility.
If your talking about Speed, That's Endurance.
If your talking about being able to hold it up on your body, That's Strength.
Just come out now and admit that it doesn't make any sense.
Try changing La, from leather, to chainmail, that might make more sense.
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Isn't speed also Agility? And I thought Endurance was just how long you could keep fighting? Is that the way it's implemented in game or is it just a mechanic thing?
-Myko
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Just come out now and admit that it doesn't make any sense.
Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't make it wrong. A chain shirt doesn't protect the whole body, or even the whole torso against some weapons. Leather bracers don't protect the whole body either. Even when wearing chain or leather armour all over, there are usually gaps where these parts overlap which can be exploited. 'chain armour' wasn't usually just chain all over. Traditionally it consisted of padded armour made from tough cloths with chain placed over the top. Weak points would probably be in the head, neck and waist, depending on the style of the armour.
You have obviously never worn leather or chain armour, or probably any armour so you have no idea what you're talking about for the rest :P Moving in chain is different to moving in leather, you are restricted in different areas and they have different weights. You can be the strongest and quickest man around and be a good fighter, but if you've never worn armour before and someone puts you in a suit of chain and tells you to go fight a guy with a mace, you'll die in 10 seconds. As I said at the end, which you ignored, being able to move around as if the armour is just skin takes some time to get used to.
Number two is we are fighting MONSTERS here most of the time. Not master swordsmen who are actually aiming for the weakpoints.
A monster might not be looking to hit you in a certain area, but it might get a lucky swing. :) Being able to position yourself correctly and be ready for anything heading in that direction is important. Doing that naturally without thinking takes time. Against opponents with different weapons you also need to be able to 'naturally' know how to protect yourself best. Chain is pretty useless against crushing weapons unless you know what you're doing, and great against slashing especially if you know the correct way to take the hit.
I do think that the 'learning from a npc, then practising' doesn't really make sense for armour, and that it doesn't really make sense for quite a few skills. It's something we've had on the todo for some months to change to be better. We certainally won't get rid of the armours as skills altogether though.
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i dont think it should be taken out of the game. just maybe made to do somethign difrent from what i understand training your armor makes your defense stronger.....why not set it so that when you wear armor it takes away from 1-3 stats you have, and the higher you train in the armor the more of those stats you regain while wearing it
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A factor that Xordan did NOT bring into play is that armor-wearers must contend with a phenomenon known as backfacing. For instance, taking an axe-blow on a mailed area would probably still be quite painful (and leave a big bruise) because even when the armor does its job, there is only one thing it can do with the force of the blow: transmit it to the wearer. (The force is transmitted over a much wider area and over a longer period of time though.)
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A factor that Xordan did NOT bring into play is that armor-wearers must contend with a phenomenon known as backfacing. For instance, taking an axe-blow on a mailed area would probably still be quite painful (and leave a big bruise) because even when the armor does its job, there is only one thing it can do with the force of the blow: transmit it to the wearer. (The force is transmitted over a much wider area and over a longer period of time though.)
Right. As I mentioned with chain not being good against crushing weapons, getting hit by a mace full in the chest while in chain will result in lots of smashed bones and probably death. Getting hit with a sword while in chain will probably result in pain and bruising if it hits you straight on, but if you take the blow on the chain in the right way, might barely feel it.
why not set it so that when you wear armor it takes away from 1-3 stats you have, and the higher you train in the armor the more of those stats you regain while wearing it
That would require us to rewrite quite a bit of our combat and stats system which isn't feasible really. It also doesn't take into consideration things like backfacing as Kaerli mentioned. I doubt Talad would approve of a change as it would take up time which could be better spent.
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yeah i forgot about it from the Devs side...be alot of work, specialy when the bugs start coming in right and left. would still be a nice and understandable system.
i also still dont understand how taking a stabb from a dagger would be more or less painfull no matter how you were hit. if you are wearing chainmail.you get a poke from a sword in the side its going to hurt, if you get poked in the chest, its going to hurt, no matter how you move or brace yourself.
when wearing chainmail all sharp objects become blunt force. meaning that if i were to punch you when you dont have it on in either of those 2 spots then put some armor on you and swing a blade at you. its going to feel the same.
chainmail is best for a stabbing defense, while plate armor may be peirced but at the same time a slash or blunt force would prevent it from hurting you, leather protects againsed slashing the best, go try to cut some leather that isnt stretched extremely tight, its impossible and your just going to dull your blade...........so all any armor does really is turn sharp force to blunt force and blunt force to a much softer impact.
no matter how you move unless you are one of those people in the bruce lee movies with all the chea or whatever its called, its going to do the same ammount of damage unless it misses you or slides off.
but thinking about it all these posts are really useless, cincidering the fact it would take months to code in every factor no matter wich of the 5 roads you take. and people are still going to be confused
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It's the angle that you are hit which makes the difference. Being able to move so you take the blow at a shallower angle spreads the impact over a larger surface area, reducing the damage done. Chain is actually best against slashing, and using that as an example, if a sword hits you in one spot with chain, it'll probably stop you from being cut but the impact will be along that one strip and you'll be hurt right? Now imagine the person moves slightly so that the edge of the sword hits at a shallow angle instead of a steep one, and the blade will slide across the chain more, spreading the impact over a larger stretch of chain and reducing the 'blunt' effect on the body from being concentrated in a single strip to being over that area.
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;D me understands now
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true indeed Xordan, but if I think of how people train for combat. Granted seen from movies and only a few discovery. I don't see them training on how to make a hit hit them less.
They train to not get hit at all. They move back to not get hit. They duck to not get hit. they spring aside to not get hit. And the armor is there so if they are not fast enough they don't die instantly.
True a veteran may naturally turn his body slightly better when they do evade in case the blow does hit, but that would be from experience on the battlefield and not from training as in training it's how to avoid getting hit that they teach.
Therefor the skill is simply wrong. You don't survive becuase you learn how to take hits but how not to get hit at all.
Armor should penzlize someone wearing it however and I could see someone trained in how oto overcome those penalties but th taking of blows. I really don't see that as THE defence skill.
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Therefor the skill is simply wrong. You don't survive becuase you learn how to take hits but how not to get hit at all.
Not necessarily . . . take the use of a shield for instance . . . the usage of such isn't based around not getting hit at all. It's about making sure you do get hit, but in the shield, not in your own squishy bits. And it's the same with body armour - learning the defensive advantages of letting yourself be hit, knowing that your armour will absorb the blow, meaning you don't have to put so much effort into complete avoidance, which means more effort into offense.
You survive because you learn how to not get hit at all. As others have implied, part of this, then, is knowing how to move in heavier armours, and more importantly now _not_ to move. If you're wearing a heavy helm with a strong nose-guard, any defensive manoeuvre that will need you to be away of what's 'above' you is a bad idea, because you won't be able to see it due to your helm. Take the battle of the Somme as another example - those in heavy plate who knew to make sure not to fall to ground may have survived. Those that didn't, that may have gone to one leg during an attack/defensive stance, would have never stood up again due to the vacuuming effect of the mud at the time, making for a somewhat easy target, armour or no.
And lastly and by no means leastly, armour only really works well if it is taken care of well. Rusty chain doesn't move with your body, exposing gaps. Un-oiled leather cracks, making holes. Part of an armour proficiency, then, is knowing how to care for your armour so as to maximise its use. It could also be due to gaining knowledge how to better wear it relative to your own sword-style - if you fight right-handed, opening up your right hand side as you fight, you might learn to tighten the buckles on that side, heightening your lateral defence. This would then expose you left side a little . . . but if the way you fight is such that that side is never exposed, it doesn't matter.
Regardless of my yabbering on, I'm sure you'll agree that there are enough _possibilities_ for armour use to have a scaled proficiency system. It may not be perfectly realistic . . . but given this is a pre-alpha test game, we're here to test things, such as systems such as these. Which is what matters.
:)
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Just come out now and admit that it doesn't make any sense.
I do think that the 'learning from a npc, then practising' doesn't really make sense for armour, and that it doesn't really make sense for quite a few skills. It's something we've had on the todo for some months to change to be better. We certainally won't get rid of the armours as skills altogether though.
I think that's the main key, it makes sense in some areas, and is flawed in some areas, overall i guess we're just going to have to deal with it.
And yea, fixing it would be a waste of time, it's not that bad anyways.
LEt me go train my MA now lol and not ask questions about how ;D