PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thoughtcrime on August 02, 2006, 05:35:27 am
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Almost every time I go on PS, I see groups of people standing somewhere out in the broad daylight of Hydlaa and talking. I, usually, have no problem with this. Sometimes, if I happen to be doing something near them, I'll stay and watch. I don't do it to eavesdrop or to be nosy, but just out of sheer curiosity.
Many times I'll see a newer player, or just another confused soul like myself, walk up to them and ask them what's going on. Said player is "chewed out" and asked to leave, sometimes not so nicely.
This is something I do not understand, and something I'd like to bring to everyone's attention. Why would people discussing such important, secretive topics hold their meetings on the street where eveyone is walking? First of all, it is very unrealistic. There are many private places (lakes, upstairs of taverns, tents, empty buildings, etc.) in which these meetings can be held, and many are actually implemented for such reasons. Second, even if you're in heated discussion and don't want to be disturbed, there's no reason to kick a curious newbie in the rear like they had some major offense.
And finally, why do people feel the need to have such cladenstine events in the open air? Is it to make them feel important, to gain attention to high-and-mighty? I'm not sure, but from what I gather that sounds like a valid idea.
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Or the more obvious point: Just use group chat.
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Group chat if it's OOC. Otherwise that just looks silly. Interactions should be IC, so if it's in your character's nature to not care what others think, an interuption should happen (with an OOC explanation to make sure no feelings are hurt). Otherwise he should use his good judgement about when is interpution may be welcome, as in RL. There is no set in stone rule.
Aside from that, it is important to do a fair amount of RP in public as to be a good influence. Of course, anything very private should be and usually is done in public. It is generally acceptable to hang out and watch RP, not being there IC, but it is a good idea to ask first.
But basically, IMO, introducing yourself to as many people as possible is the best way to get into RP. My character is shy, so this is difficult to do IC, but I've found ways.
Anyway, if things are as you described, I haven't seen it. But it should not be that way--IC privacy or aloofness should be footnoted OOCly.
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I have no problems with the cliques, I want nothing from them. I have found that if you use the RP functions and speak well to people, they generally respond very well in game. And I do not sweat it if they do not, typing on a keyboard is not the most natural means of expression for a lot of people and some people don't want to talk or do not like the way they were approached. Pretty much the same as going about everyday life...
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Many times I'll see a newer player, or just another confused soul like myself, walk up to them and ask them what's going on. Said player is "chewed out" and asked to leave, sometimes not so nicely.
I just want to point out .... you don't just walk up to strangers in RL and interupt their conversation and say "Hey! Whatca talking about?" If you did you would probably get some strange looks and the strangers might ask you to mind your own business and leave. That being said, the way people are reacting is very realistic. It is rude to barge in on a conversation, especailly if you don't know the group.
I don't think people do that to be "high and mighty" so much as it is irritating to have people (not just newbies) stumble in on your conversations with the expectation that you'll stop everything your doing just to explain to them what is going on. I am not saying it is ok to get upset and flip out but being "chew out" might teach them some manners. I am sure if that same person entered the group politely asking if they could join, a better reaction would be had.
Also let us not forget everyone is not nice and polite in the RL, so expecting everyone to be that way is just ignoring a major fact of life. We all know bullies exsist. Venting about them isn't going to make them go away.Trouble shooting the problem will help the issue. If you see a newbie getting chewed out for not knowing better, don't just stand there and watch. Help the newbie understand why they got a bad reaction (if you can) and how they can prevent it further into the furture. Lead by example.
This has been discussed alot on the forums. I posted this awhile ago but I think this thread calls for it. Newbies vs Oldbies (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24241.msg271629#msg271629)
Anyway I have had the same experiences as althos_tarante. I rarely meet rude people, and I find if you are polite and unobtrusive then all is good.
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Aside from that, it is important to do a fair amount of RP in public as to be a good influence. Of course, anything very private should be and usually is done in public. It is generally acceptable to hang out and watch RP, not being there IC, but it is a good idea to ask first.
Oh yes, I completely agree. Public RPing is one of my favorite aspects of the game. But I think if a group of people, in character, do not want to be disturbed, they could go to a private place to hold their meeting.
I am sure if that same person entered the group politely asking if they could join, a better reaction would be had.
This is also true, but from the one or two experiences I've seen it was just a n00b asking what was going on. Obviously not the best RPing, but they were just curious, not exactly rude. I don't exactly agree with prodding into business that isn't your own, but of course new players are going to be naturally curious. It goes along with what the Purrty's said a while back about guilds belittling people and making them feel excluded, I s'pose.
*shrugs* Dunno, maybe it seems like I'm attacking people, but I just wanted to know if anyone experienced something like this. ;)
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hmmmm sounds like the same thing i would do in your position and i agree it does look silly. if i was them i woudl be a little more creative as in i would hold a secret meeting at teh places you mentioned, though if it was at a tavern i would either pay someone to stand gaurd or keep to of my men in teh group at the door to prevent people from coming in and easedropping.
To bad their are very few people in teh gaming world who are creative as that. :(
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It goes along with what the Purrty's said a while back about guilds belittling people and making them feel excluded, I s'pose.
So it was a guild who did this? Or was it just one person who was in a guild? :) (Far to many times I have seen people blame guilds for things they shouldn't be blamed for just because one person in that guild acted out ... this is why I am asking.)
By the way I never thought you were attacking people. I read your post as a frustrated player, who would rather see people being polite and not being jerks as the "newbie" might not understand why the people who are in the group might be upset to their intrusion. Just wanted to clear that up.
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So it was a guild who did this? Or was it just one person who was in a guild? :) (Far to many times I have seen people blame guilds for things they shouldn't be blamed for just because one person in that guild acted out ... this is why I am asking.)
Are you saying guilds aren't responsible for the way their members act? That seems like a key feature to me..
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Aside from that, it is important to do a fair amount of RP in public as to be a good influence. Of course, anything very private should be and usually is done in public. It is generally acceptable to hang out and watch RP, not being there IC, but it is a good idea to ask first.
Oh yes, I completely agree. Public RPing is one of my favorite aspects of the game. But I think if a group of people, in character, do not want to be disturbed, they could go to a private place to hold their meeting.
Oops, I meant to say that anything private should be and usually is done in private. Not publiic. There may still be times when a conversation held in public does not warrant invites to newcomers, but it really depends on the situation. As in RL, you'd use caution when approaching a group of strangers so as not to distrurb them at a bad time, even if they are in public. Unless it's in your character not to care. Again, whenever there's confusion, these things should be explained OOC'ly so as not to hurt any RL feelings.
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Are you saying guilds aren't responsible for the way their members act? That seems like a key feature to me..
No, I am saying that just because it is one persons "bad behavior" that is noticed, doesn't mean the whole guild is that way.
The only control a guild master has is an option to kick that certain member if in fact the guild master doesn't agree with their behavior. If the guild master is not aware of this behavior and the other guild members follow the rules accordingly then I feel it isn't fair to pass judgement on the whole guild. Another form of punishment would be to demote them, that is if they have ranked. If that is the case, you still can't judge the guild on that persons behavior because the guild master is showing he/she doesn't approve with the demotion.
Is a parent responsible for a child that is over the age of 18? No. Not according to the law. Why would a guild be any different? :) You join forces a guild because you believe in the same goals and such, not to be baby sat.
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We have found that coming into any situation with fingers blazing on the keyboard is not the best of plans. That is, unless you are playing a boisterous and happy character. They seem to be welcome anywhere.
The best way to introduce yourself into a roleplay group can be not introducing yourself at all. A simple /me pauses in his/her walk at the site of such a large group. If the other players are good RPers, they will welcome you into the group in much the same way. Perhaps with a /me takes note of **player's** curious glance. That is a very good sign you have been invited. If not, then move on. There is roleplay to be found everywhere. Maybe, you just need to start your own group.
RP on.
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Is a parent responsible for a child that is over the age of 18? No. Not according to the law. Why would a guild be any different? :) You join forces a guild because you believe in the same goals and such, not to be baby sat.
I'm just saying, in OI you only became a member because we trusted you...we knew none of our members would just go out and smear our name. Sure, they might get into arguments or something (Atticus and myself were council members...though I guess you probably don't know Atticus so that reference is lost) but if we got flak for it OI was willing to accept that.
Being a guild member is a responsibility, and if you can't accept that you shouldn't be in a guild. So yes, one member can define a guild, if someone in your guild is acting up and you don't know about it then it is the faulty recruitment you have going on and therefore your guild deserves to be held responsible for that.
EDIT: Apparently I left out many, many words. Sorry if I didn't catch them all. I really need to learn how to type.
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If you join a guild your actions reflect on the hole guild so yes the guild will be tarred with same brush.
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I'm just saying, in OI you only became a member because we trusted you...we knew none of our members would just go out and smear our name. Sure, they might get into arguments or something (Atticus and myself were council members...though I guess you probably don't know Atticus so that reference is lost) but if we got flak for it OI was willing to accept that.
Being a guild member is a responsibility, and if you can't accept that you shouldn't be in a guild. So yes, one member can define a guild, if someone in your guild is acting up and you don't know about it then it is the faulty recruitment you have going on and therefore your guild deserves to be held responsible for that.
Well you raise some very good points Kiern. I am used to these mass recruiting guilds and the lack of effort put into them.Truth be told I hadn't really looked at it from your point of view until you explained your meaning. What you have stated makes complete sense. I am reconsidering my standing on this issue because of these good points.
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secret meetings to me, are ones you aren't aware of :S
why do they need to be roleplayed at all?
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Wait wait, I think everyone misunderstood what I said. I was only using what the Purrty's said as an example, this has nothing at all to do with guilds. I was more trying to bring out the point of people being inclusive.
why do they need to be roleplayed at all?
This I can understand. I try to role play as much as possible, and I can understand why a meeting has to be role played. Not any specific kind of meeting. But since you would only really discuss things in the world, there's no better place to do it.
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No one misunderstood you as far as I can tell, we just went a little off topic and I apologize for that...but it happens.
As for the real topic, I'm not sure I get what you're trying to accomplish with it. Do you expect everyone to read this and change their mind on it? Are you saying people should get in trouble for this? Or are you just venting? Saying "Play nice" is all well and good but isn't really going to happen.
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...from the one or two experiences I've seen it was just a n00b asking what was going on. Obviously not the best RPing, but they were just curious, not exactly rude. I don't exactly agree with prodding into business that isn't your own, but of course new players are going to be naturally curious.
Courtesy is a precious thing, that can only be taught by example.
Most new players are eager to fit in, want to be included in the fun, and will follow reasonable instructions.
It goes along with what the Purrty's said a while back about guilds belittling people and making them feel excluded, I s'pose.
People naturally desire to belong, and to have an identity within a group.
They also compete, regardless of talent.
Those who are insecure, and have low self-esteem, often try to convince themselves that they are superior, by insulting and belittling others.
The most insecure, do that as a group.
Sometimes a guild is formed by players who lack social skills, and what you have described sounds like one of those.
Such guilds are usually unsuccessful and short lived, but even so, they serve a useful purpose.
They provide contrasting examples of what not to do, and inspire others to do better, themselves.
And we need them.
They really make the rest of us look great. :)
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Do you expect everyone to read this and change their mind on it? Are you saying people should get in trouble for this? Or are you just venting? Saying "Play nice" is all well and good but isn't really going to happen.
Honestly, I don't really know what I was trying to accomplish. I'm really not much of a complainer. I just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention and see if any similar things have happened to them, and just ask about everyone's overall thoughts on such situations.
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Almost every time I go on PS, I see groups of people standing somewhere out in the broad daylight of Hydlaa and talking. I, usually, have no problem with this. Sometimes, if I happen to be doing something near them, I'll stay and watch. I don't do it to eavesdrop or to be nosy, but just out of sheer curiosity.
Many times I'll see a newer player, or just another confused soul like myself, walk up to them and ask them what's going on. Said player is "chewed out" and asked to leave, sometimes not so nicely.
This is something I do not understand, and something I'd like to bring to everyone's attention. Why would people discussing such important, secretive topics hold their meetings on the street where eveyone is walking? First of all, it is very unrealistic. There are many private places (lakes, upstairs of taverns, tents, empty buildings, etc.) in which these meetings can be held, and many are actually implemented for such reasons. Second, even if you're in heated discussion and don't want to be disturbed, there's no reason to kick a curious newbie in the rear like they had some major offense.
And finally, why do people feel the need to have such cladenstine events in the open air? Is it to make them feel important, to gain attention to high-and-mighty? I'm not sure, but from what I gather that sounds like a valid idea.
People like to feel important and they also crave attention. Being exclusive and rude to outsiders is one way of achieving this. In some instances, a member of the group is an alt of a player who may have an OOC grudge against the 'intruder'.
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I just realised something, maybe it isnt there fault with the whole secret meeting they arranged. How many chat options has PS got. i know in World of warcraft you have say, tell/whisper, group/party, and raid(consisting of more then 5 members in a group) chat. maybe PS hasnt got that many chat options or maybe its a little to confusing th chat options and the way it is displayed and layed out which is wha i had difficulty with.
Maybe once the GUI and Chat is fixed then these sort of misunderstandings wont occur as often. A chat bubble with the players text over the charachters head would be a nice touch when you want things heard in public within a certain radius. It would make it easier to see whos saying what rather than having to look at the name and then look around for the players name over a characters head.
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To me, it all comes down to role-playing. If you're the kind of group/guild that *would* discuss something in public, then do so . . . as long as it's your characters nature to do so.
Likewise, if your individual character - newbie or not - is curious and/or nosey by nature, then why wouldn't they brazenly walk up to a group deep in personal conversation and insert themselves into it? Why wouldn't they want to eavesdrop? It it's what your character would do, then do it. That's what role-playing *is*.
The only beans I would have with this situation is if the group/guild were to harass such an inquisitive character OOC. That bites the big kumara. As other posters have said, whilst most people wouldn't stop upon seeing a group of random strangers talking and simply say hello IRL, this is a game promoting role-playing, and thus promoting that sort of activity - even if for no other reason than for a newbie to 'see how others do it' - and so it happens. But this is not license for the group to treat the inquisitive player rudely OOC. If the group see an eavesdropper, and so get their Tuff Guy to roughly tell him or her to beat it, I don't see a problem with it . . . as long as the whole interaction is done in character.
In this way, there should be no need for a third-party chaperone to then have to tell a newbie finding themselves in such a situation why they've been shut out . . . because the role-playing of being asked to move along should do that. If, in such a situation, such an inquisitive character gets harassed by a group of players and intimidated OOC, that's when GM's should be notified and those players reported, in my opinion. But if it's done in character, I can't see anything wrong with it . . . because that's what would actually happen.
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I just realised something, maybe it isnt there fault with the whole secret meeting they arranged. How many chat options has PS got. i know in World of warcraft you have say, tell/whisper, group/party, and raid(consisting of more then 5 members in a group) chat. maybe PS hasnt got that many chat options or maybe its a little to confusing th chat options and the way it is displayed and layed out which is wha i had difficulty with.
Point taken; however, there are many less-traveled paths (Bronze Doors, Consumer Valley, etc.) that players could go to discuss something important. Since all this is done IC, it would be even more IC for them to go somewhere private
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I agree with the main core of the thread, and I think everyone does.
If a group of characters has a meeting, and its meant to deal with important aspects for those chars, and they do not want to be "catched" then they should hold that roleplay in a suitable location.
What decided me to post here, though, was something I was reported not so long ago, and that I honestly hope that, by now, it's over.
Apparently, and I've no reasons to doubt about it, seeing who were the ones telling me this, there was sort of a "fashion" to see a group of characters, but that said nothing. They were roleplaying in /group. I've enough trust in those players that told me as to know that they approached those groups nicely, roleplayed wise, but got no answer.
Notice the big contrast. We've a group of characters that, from the new arrived point of view is nothing more than a bunch of statues, saying nothing. In the meanwhile, they're having fun with the ones they've chosen to be on that meeting, and ensure that, by using the /group. Two worlds so different, one in front of the other. The player that roleplays around that group, but sees nothing else than statues plainly ignoring him/her, while, at the same time, that group is in frenetical activity of poorly disguised roleplay. It is painful to be told of things like those, and see that they happen. It is painful to see good roleplayers excluded from other people plays, simply because those ones decided to be in a steel bubble, roleplaying in group, selecting with whom they've fun, and appearing as speechless statues to the rest of the world.
My opinion: use the group chat function to partner someone when you go hunting, so you can attack the same NPC at once and share the looting easily, use it too if you're going to keep a long OOC talk with not a single person, but a group of them... but please, do not use the /group function to segregate even more the roleplayer community.
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I think one should be thankful for the PVP settings in the game. If not for those these groups and guilds that have been so rude and excluding to people would just trounce you back to the DR for interrupting, just like if you tried to interrupt a group of nobles or knights 1000 years ago who were having a private conversation. Group and guild chat is in the game for whatever the players use it for, end of story. If this bothers you, then make your own group or guild and then you can exclude others and have your revenge. I think there is a tendency to interpret these things like they happened in real life. How many people in PS has one talked to at once? I was in a group discussion with 10 characters one time. We did it in a back neighborhood in Hydlaa where others were less likely to run across us. It is hell trying to watch the conversation and pick out the threads, because unless the conversation is properly moderated it is REALLY hard to follow. If someone tried to talk to me while this was going on, I would probably just ignore them. I have explained to new players a couple of times that one should just assume that others are talking to at least one other person at once and probably more, and waiting patiently so they can finish and then give you some kind of reply. But if they do not reply, do not bother them: end of discussion. Now, if all of this was about somebody being actually mean and rude to someone else, then that is definitely unfortunate. I do not encourage that sort of behavior as there is no point to it and you never know when you are talking to some little kid...
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Well yes I have seen alot of people having "secret meetings" but chances are there just a bunch of members of a guild who are talking about somthing important. So I really dont mind about anything they are talking about.