PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mykentros on August 09, 2006, 01:41:16 am
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I don't know if that's the right word, but as Yliakum is divided up into several levels, which APPEAR to have cliff-like edges, what would you see if you went to the edge of the current level. From the guide, it sounds like it would be a steep drop off, almost vertical. If you stood on the edge, would it be as if you were standing on the edge of a canyon? Would you be able to see all the way down to the lowest level? Would you be able to see the other side of the same level?
These questions can only be answered if we know the dimentions of each level. How wide is each level? How much is each level lower than the last? If we know these numbers (or even just the proportion of the measurements) we can determine sight lines. On the lower levels, you probably could see to the other side. On the higher levels, that's a question of air quality. Since PS is based in mideival times, I'd say there's very little pollution (except in big cities, where a bunch of fireplaces could cause smog. Of course there are volcanoes, but they don't erupt constantly (How are there volcanoes in a stalactite??) ) On a clear day, you should be able to see about 200 miles (this is through air. In water it would be much less)
Ok, so Yliakum is a self contained biome with its own ecosystem. The crystal is the source of energy for all the living things. Yliakum also must not have been naturally formed. A stalactite is formed naturallly through soft limestone, etc being dissolved in water and being left behind. It usually takes about 100 years per cubic centimeter Gold, silver, iron do not dissolve in water. The formation of the stalactite is truly a mystery. Maybe it was formed through tectonic activity?
Sorry if I cause any heads to explode with all the science, but this is cool to talk about!
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it was formed by magic... or atleast the gods, if i remember my sunday school right.
but the sizes are mentioned somewhere in the player's guide.
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Well I guess that takes care of the issue of geology. What about the sightlines. There should be nothing preventing people from seeing to the other side of the same level that they are on other than air quality. If the angle of depression between the edges of two levels is greater than 45 degrees, theoretically, you should be able to not only see every level below you, but also the cliff faces of every level above you. This whole concept of living on the inside of something (as opposed to the outside, like we do) reminds me of the theory that arose during the mid 20th century that suggested that we lived on the INSIDE of the earth. Of course it didn't last long, but it was interesting nonetheless.
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Yliakum is located thousands of meters under the surface inside a huge excavated stalactite
The planes are just huge caves above eachother. There is no edge as far as I know. Just like with the Bronze Doors map you would simply have something that looks like a mountainrange reach to the cieling.
anyhow as to how it was formed I think is a bit hard to compare it with RL. As I haven't seen a stalactite thats citysize yet. Just the thought of how long that would take naturally to develop is mindboggling really.
As to the gold and such if one asumes it's still formed with water gold might not desolve in water but it can often been found in riverbanks and such. Depending how the water got there it might have been carrying some gold aswell. Otherwise it might have naturally formed there seeing how much time it must have taken to develop a stalactite of that size.
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So the inside was excavated? Then a possibility is that Yliakum was a deposit of bedrock surrounded by limestone and the limestone dissolved away leaving the granite or whatever (althought that sounds dangeroulsy unstable)
So, there is no sheer drop? :( Sigh, I was thinking of the exiting possibilites.
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Well I read about an elevator between planes so there might be holes in the ground the go down all the way, but no, no skydiving from the edge of the toplevel I'm afraid ;)
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Pretty interesting, which brings us to ideas living inside something, some people have stated that we actually live in a virtual universe, that we are puppets in a big scheme, roughly spoken. Just speculating, today we can simulate all that does happen irl, what if everything that was real was in fact not reality but a piece of someone's imagining. Mind blowing. These natural laws we sspeak of can be scribbled down pretty easily according to others. It sounds ridiculous, but yet it's fascinating.
If you want to know more of this "Truman Show" is a movie that attempts to illustrate how easily a human ca be fooled when he is grown up in a familiar environment.
It sure is interesting, in enormous turn we are actually inside something, universe ends 13 billion years away, what will we find there, is there anything past the entirety? I have heard of a theory about a bent universe where we only live on the surface of the universe, like an inflated baloon. It grows but the baloon's surface only stretches. In this theory the universe is the baloon and the surface is mass, govened by space time, the air inflating the universe is dark energy. What we see as 3D is, according to the theory is an illusion created by the space time.
Geeze, we keep blowing heads do we, ok i'll stop :)
I don't have words for discussing these, i'm know i'm very pleased.
Hmm, is this the wrong thread to speak of Space time-perhaps...
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To get back on topic
Quoted form the main page
For this reason it is structured in grades - like Dante's Inferno - and each grade is smaller than the former
http://www.tabula-rasa.info/HorrorImages/Inferno.gif
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:ZL7sKA4JwlVHyM:www.oxfordtutorials.com/DanteInferno.jpg
Something similar to this i'd guess, now, issue taken care of? Also, for the Azure sun to shine through the entire Stalactite it will have to be hollow. It will become darker and darker the farther you venture. you wont see everything but most. This is a big arse stalactite so you will probably only see two ways if you're in the middle.
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You stole my idea! I was planning on making an alt that would be the town crazy. Run around drunk, begging for money and babbling things that don't make sense. One of the things I planned on saying was "Fools! We're inside a simulation! We don't exist! Don't you see!" and at times talk about anachronism like lasers and stuff :P
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We need someone like that. Every time a new area is added he'd be like "No! It wasn't there before! You've never been there!" And everyone would dismiss him.
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There is a saying that goes something like this: only children and loonies will tell the truth
No idea what it means but it fits fairly well. Maybe between these illaterate ramblings we will hear the truth, as with children.
Blablabla, now I totally hijacked this thread.
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Hello,
here\'s something that got created while reading through the setting section of PlaneShift homepage.
(http://www.hut.fi/~vrantapu/PlaneShift/VR_World_of_PlaneShift.jpg)
A page from Cherppow\'s log book. :)
The picture was quite large and had to be shrunk generously. Hopefully you can still make something out of it. Note that this is only artists impression of PlaneShift world, based on the story found at http://www.planeshift.it/setting.html . ( It may or may not hold any resemblance with the actual PS world. ) Still, if you find clear conflicts with the PS setting, please inform me.
That, IMHO, is a rather good illustration of the concepts behind the Settings of Yliakum in the PlaneShift universe... made, IMHO, by a rather good illustrator: Cherppow -who is on the PS Development Team.
Try running Search on Cherppow to see more of his wonderful work - well only that which he has released on the forums that is! :)
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Ah, yes! That's the image that made me think that the edge of a plane was a sheer cliff. So, looking at the drawing, I guess you COULD see all the way down to the lower levels. I'm getting no sense of scale though. How wide is each level and what is the radius at the very top of Yliakum? Whats the height of the entire stalactite itself?
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Oh I've seen him, and he is an excellent artist, I envy him far and beyond, he's damn good :) That's what I could say
So, the stalactite is in the shape of a giant amphitheater. I believe there will be effects like clouds that will hinder the sight but on sunny days you'll see pretty much of the higher levels.
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If the illustration was more finished and accentuated in colour, then it may be easier to see that the Stalactite with it's 8 levels is actually shown here in Cherppow's pencil sketch, as a cross-section
The other half of the Stalactite has been removed. The area that we can now explore in-game, from Ojaveda to the end of the Bronze Doors Road, where the ramparts climbs into the cliff face and on through to the waterwheel and the Fortress, constitutes half of the whole area that makes up just the 8th and upper level of the Stalactite known as Yliakum. The known explorable area of the 8th level could be only one third of the actual level, but I tend to consider that it's one-half that has so far been revealed to us.
EDIT: Actually, looking closely at what is now an "old" illustration of things, I think that when version 0.3.015 of the PS Client was released and Ojaveda was leap-frogged over to the other side of Hydlaa, the tunnel entrance marked Bronze Doors and the other tunnel entrance marked in Cherppow's Sketch above, should probably swap places too, if this drawing were ever to be revised.
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I knew it was a cross section (my question was is it a sheer drop when you go from level to level). I didn't know thought that we were seeing only 1/16th of the entire game world (even less if you count the stuff outside of the stalactite) Very exciting. I still want to know what inter level terrain will look like.
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Yes, I see that now. That also explains the ending tunnels, and how they go somewhere else. IMO, not even a developer will know how big the universe is or will be. Only estimates and pixel-counts can decide on how large the area will be. Just imagine the lag created if you could see the entire Yliakum.
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I have seen at least one other illustration made that shows a system of cranes and platforms that were constructed to facilitate travel and trade between at least some of the adjacent levels inside the Stalactite of Yliakum.
I guess that although some parts of the cliff face might be vertical with perhaps some overhangs, the geography was not a complete barrier to the earlier citizens of Yliakum.
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This whole concept of living on the inside of something (as opposed to the outside, like we do) reminds me of the theory that arose during the mid 20th century that suggested that we lived on the INSIDE of the earth. Of course it didn't last long, but it was interesting nonetheless.
The whole theory was about mirroring the whole universe at the surface of the earth. Then there would be all the universe (including us) inside the earth and the earth outside. Since it is just a mirroring, it hasn't been disproved yet and possibly will never. There were attempts, of course, but you cannot decide whether we live in- or outside the earth from inside the universe. At least that has been proven. So choose, which way you like more :). When you're a scientist, you should stick with the outside version, because that would make most formulas looking easier (but not all). They are all the same of course, just transformed, or better: mirrored.
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"There were attempts, of course, but you cannot decide whether we live in- or outside the earth from inside the universe. At least that has been proven. So choose, which way you like more Smiley. When you're a scientist, you should stick with the outside version, because that would make most formulas looking easier (but not all)."
Actually, the Germans in WWII tried to take this theory into account when communicating with submarines on the other side of the world. Reasoning being, that if it was really mirrored-insy or hollow earth, you should be able to send radio waves directly into the sky to communicate with a sub on the other side of the world. It didn't work.
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Berlioz: I didn't know anyone still believed in that. First off, with our current understanding of gravity (which, so far, has been absolutely correct for the millions of stars and tiny atomic interactions), a hollow inside a sphere, no matter how think of a shell it has, will always have a gravity of zero everywhere inside of it. (the earth is not a perfect spere, so we would have TINY gravitational imbalances) If the object was spinning, people would feel a "downward" pulling force due to centripetal force, but than we would experience anamolies as we apporached the poles, but we do not (not to mention that the earth would have to rotate MUCH faster than it does now). It is also possible to calculate the amount of centripetal force on a person after moving around the earth. All evidence says that the centrifugal force (not a real force unless in a non-inertial frame of reference) decreases the weight of a person, meaning it is pulling upwards, making that "outwards" Of course then there's the fact that the sun sets at night, and we can physically see the curvature of the earth (and see the earth as a ball from outer space). And then there's the question. What in the world (pun, haha) would happen if you dug to the center?
Next, if even in the face of all this evidence you still believe hollow earth is correct, you can completely reject hollow earth through Occam's Razor (which states that when you have two theories with equally good predictive powers, chose the simpler one, in laymans terms). First off, you cannot use Euclidean geometry. If we are to believe that the INSIDE of the earth holds all of the galaxies and stars, that would mean that the distance to go through the universe either becomes drastically smaller, or we use non-Euclidean geometry (which is not incorrect in and of itself). In this case, the distance through the center is actually longer than a circumnavigation. You could not have a regular unit through your entire model (think of it like making a map of the world in an hourglass shape instead of the more common ellipse. Neither one is a perfect representation, but an elliptical projection is much easier to use) Next, you'd be left with left with a very garbled up version of Coperincus' theory. Not only that, but light can no longer travel in a straight line! At this point one is just playing with coordinate systems and is achieving very little. Through Occam's Razor, one must choose the traditional (which actually was not always the traditional. Flat earth anyone?), spherical earth model.
Of course as Yliakum is in a completely magical world, who knows what the gods decide, but I doubt that they would rearrange the universe for a single planet. The planet Yliakum is on is not THAT special. Speaking of which, what IS the name of the planet Yliakum is on?
-Mykentros
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Of course as Yliakum is in a completely magical world, who knows what the gods decide, but I doubt that they would rearrange the universe for a single planet. The planet Yliakum is on is not THAT special. Speaking of which, what IS the name of the planet Yliakum is on?
-Mykentros
That's a good question, I haven't heard of the name either.
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Yliakum is located thousands of meters under the surface inside a huge excavated stalactite
The planes are just huge caves above eachother. There is no edge as far as I know. Just like with the Bronze Doors map you would simply have something that looks like a mountainrange reach to the cieling.
anyhow as to how it was formed I think is a bit hard to compare it with RL. As I haven't seen a stalactite thats citysize yet. Just the thought of how long that would take naturally to develop is mindboggling really.
As to the gold and such if one asumes it's still formed with water gold might not desolve in water but it can often been found in riverbanks and such. Depending how the water got there it might have been carrying some gold aswell. Otherwise it might have naturally formed there seeing how much time it must have taken to develop a stalactite of that size.
Yes there is an edge. in the player's guide there's a picture and it clearly shows an edge.
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Hmm, well, now that the edge has been established, there are a few more questions. How wide is each level? How much is the drop from level to level? I'm guessing it's something substantial but I have a history of guessing things wrong. The reason I want to know this is because with such a prevalant amounts of cliffs, there are a lot of opportunities for some very interesting stories involving them. Just a few examples. A man sees his wife killed and afterwards walks along the edge, taking long poignant looks downward. Or during a chase scene, a woman is riding on a non-flying mount (are we going to have those?) pursued by three men on similar mounts. She reaches the edge and barely manages to keep from falling off. The three men ride up against her and push against the cliff edge, and one slowly draws out a sword. As he swings, the woman jumps off of her horse and throws herself off of the edge. (to be contintued...dun dun dun)
Those cliffs have lots of possiblities (Don't steal my ideas! >:( )
-Mykentros
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@Hollow-world theory: This theory includes the requirement that light does not run in straight lines, but along the vurvature so that it appears to run in straight lines on a curved surface. That would then have to also apply to other electromagnetic waves, including radio signals, so they, too, will follow the surface. Therefore, even if there indeed was a straight line from one side of the world to the other that went through space, it wouldn't help, since the radio waves would not follow that line, giving you the same effect: destination unreachable.
However, AFAIK this theory can be disproven by the following experiment: assume you dig two shafts straight downwards. This would not be affected by sight and optical laws. Straight down. Then you connect these two vertical shafts by a horizontal one. Now measure the distance between the shaft endings on the surface and underground. If the surface is inside a ball, then the distance at the surface will be smaller than that underground. Otherwise, it will be larger.
Anyway, back to Yliakum now: there exist no special laws of nature that would make light go in bends or somesuch, thus the Yliaki can, given the required science and math, deduce that they're inside something. From the settings, it is clear that they do know that. What they don't know (but assume from the dimensions of the levels), is that they are inside a stalactite that hands inside a cave.
There is a book at Jayose's library that talks about the dimensions of the world (with a caveat that it might be incorrect). According to that book
- there is a huge hole in the very center of each level. Through that hole the light from the crystal travels to the levels below. The dimensions of the holes are such that the light can reach the outskirts of the level below, hence the holes diameters shrink along with the level diameter.
The gods made the slopes between the levels so that the light of crystal could illuminate all the available land
That likely means that the holes are not vertical, but coned (i.e., the diameter of the hole is larger at it's lower end).
- the levels are spaced 5km apart, and are 5km think, except the first level which is 10km thick and the ceiling is 10km high.
- the first level is not inside the stalactite, but inside the rock that it hangs from, which is why it can connect to the stone labyrints at all. This is also why mining is allowed there: you can't dig through the walls into the cave (though you could reach the bottom of the level's floor given sufficiently advanced mining techniques; also, excessive mining would still destabilise the stalactite, regardless of where it is done; however, the scale of mining would have to meet todays RL standards for it to have any such effect).
- All water enters the stalactite through the first level, where vast underground rivers come from the stone walls. That water then travels through the level and to the lower levels. I assume that part of it falls down through the center hole, and part through cracks in the levels or walls.
- the lowest levels (7 and 8) are submerged, the center holes are filled by water as well. Depending on season, the 6th level is partially submerged or dry. The center hole is a huge lake when viewed from the dried sixth level.
- the water exits the stalactite through the bottom of the 8th level. This means that there are cracks through which it flows out, and falls from the stalactite in a huge waterfall down into the cave, where it forms a huge lake at the shores of which the Lemur settlement, left over from Laanx's wanderings and now ruled by the Black Flame, is located.
The dimensions of the stalactite, according to the book, would, in theory, allow one to see from one side to the other.
The first level has a total diameter (hole included) of 50 km (...) with an inner circumference of about 102 km, with an outer circumference of about 157 km. This means a surface of 1256 square km. The second level has a total diameter of 40 km, the floor is 5 km wide, with an inner circumference of about 102 km, with an outer circumference of about 125 km. This means a surface of 549,8 square km
Assuming this continues, the 8th level will be a puddle of mere 1.25km in diameter.
It also means that the planet's crust must, at least at the place where Yliakum is located, be thicker than that of earth, since otherwise the underside of the stalactite would be below it, let alone the huge cave, especially since the stalactite's upper end is about 10km below the surface.
Regarding the percentage of Yliakum that is implemented: I think it's nowhere near 1/16th. Yliakum is an entire country, after all. Given the sheer physical dimensions and the fact that ATM we have only two cities, of which only a tiny fraction is implemented, and some open space that would, if laid out in a straight line, AFAICS not even suffice to connect the two cities when they are placed where they belong in the long run, it is clear that we see, at best, 1/100th of Yliakum, likely much less. This does not even account for the planetary surface, the stone labyrinths, the cave below the stalactite, Pradesha and the other planes that the portals lead to.
The dimensions would, compared to the earth's atmosphere, probably allow atmospheric phenomena to develop (considering that the weather on earth forms in the lower 18km of the atmosphere), which means that, contrary to my previous interpretations of Yliakum weather (which were founded on a much lower ceiling), RL-like weather, including rain, could possibly form. This does, however, not exclude the possibility of trickles of water that fall frim the ceiling, though they would be heavily disturbed by atmospheric motion and thus affect an area, not a single place.
Regarding the planet: I am not aware of a name either. There, however, must be similarly many planets in the PS universe as in the RL one, given that Laanx and Talad, according to the settings,discovered one quiet planet with a crystal column full of energy and mystery.
This implies there are lots of other planets.
Regarding the lunatic: I don't think that would work. The lunatic cannot know the names of the machinery like lasers or computers. They might not even know the word "simulation". It is possible for them to describe things in terms of a chess-board, but not in terms of modern-day tech.
Edit: corrections