PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Monk_ on September 14, 2006, 01:36:04 am
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I've tried to find other posts with this idea. I saw nothing truly like this. Apologies if I missed them and I hope this at least has enough original content.
I'll start with my WHY:
■ Powerlevelling.
■ Devs want to see a gradual progression of characters in a realistic way, leading to experts in various fields and a compelling community-driven economy.
■ However slow and grueling you make the skilling system, those with more time in a day will still be able to dedicate their time to the most efficient way of skilling, for the sake of it. This leads to a skewed progression of the crafts and skills, with older, wiser characters who have been at work longer in Yliakum history, being far less skilled than some new players.
And How:
In terms of game mechanics, have number for each char (let's call it Recreation Points), which gets reset once a week for your char, wether they are logged in or not. The number falls as you train. When it gets to 0, you get a message something like "Your head is just too full of new learning and you need time to process it". So you can only do so much training in a week. The reset should happen on the weekday on which your char was created, so that there is no unnatural rush of training every Monday.
I think weekly would be better than a perpetual climb of Recreation Points or a daily reset. With weekly, players can't create a char, and ignore it for months until they have a stack of Recreation Points then Powerlevel. Weekly will also have a better result in terms of allowing consistent and dedicated players who can play in certain times of the day/week to progress in skills in a comparitive way to obsessive PLers who abandon their real lives.
I think it will give players space to go ahead and use those skills for the good of the community rather than for the levelling march. It will also encouraging RP and simply playing together, which is always good. It also means you dont have to make skilling boring to discourage too much of it.
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Hmm I dunno, it seems to me that levelling isn't as easy as alot of people make it out to be. I know one player in the game who I always get to repair my swords because it helps him train, he was repairing for almost an hour and still wasn't going up a level, this seems to me that PLing isn't as big a problem. I think the system of having to train individual skills by spending PP and tria (both of which you have to earn, it isn't a case of kill 100 rats and you can become a super-character) restricts it enough. That's just my 2 tria though, i'm ure others will have differing opinions.
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I guess I could be considered by some a PLer.. in my own defense, all the good RPers I know can kill a bandit in one or two strikes...
anyways, on topic.
I kinda like the idea actually, but I think I have a slightly better way to keep it in ratio, as a character progresses skill wise.
Once a week, occuring on the day of creation as before, but...
total the values for all skills, multiply by some number, like 0.2 .. maybe 0.5, rounded
that number will be the number of level increases the player is alloted for the week.
whenever a player "ranks up", 1 point is subtracted. If they try to rank up and have zero points left, they're told something like "you cant concentrate and are unable to master XYZ skill," possibly display how many RL hours they need to "relax" before resuming studies
This way your ability to learn more per week does increase, eg; your character learns how to learn, which is natural.
It's at a fixed ratio for everyone, hopefully motivating players to specialize more as they start out, rather than trying to learn everything. It also rewards players who have mastered a few skills, by later allowing them to start learning neglected skills a little faster.
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I've never been a fan of pling, I mean I do train, but I don't train for hours on hours, mostly I rp... However I like this idea... Like alot... It would make it so people who have been around longer don't get bested by some PLer whos only been around for a month... Which does happen more then most believe... :thumbdown:
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Hmm I dunno, it seems to me that levelling isn't as easy as alot of people make it out to be.
I wasn't saying it's too hard too easy to level. The point is, no matter how easy or hard it is, if some newbie can spend 24hrs a day doing it, they'll end up ahead of a 3 years player. What counts is not how many levels you have, but how much levelling-time you have under your belt.
I actually dont think it should be too hard to level. It should be rewarding, and I think it should progress faster than RL, even with weekly limits. We need to be able to RP the lives of our characters faster than we live our own.. or we'll never have time.
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Yeah, that sounds good. It's not so much a way to make leveling up harder, but a way to keep PLing in check.
I think a good way to keep people from stocking up on RP or what ever we are calling them, you could just make a maximum amount.
The max should probably be something like 50 points. I think that giving one point for every hour would be a good way of building up points.
The only question is, should you get a point for every hour (period) or should you get a point for every hour spent playing. It seem to me that if it were every hour spent playing, it should be in game hours rather than real hours (otherwise, you would have to play a $*!# load.
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1] and 3] point is the same
I don't know why do you want so desperately stop PLers. Are they flooding our community? Your RP is spoiled no matter where you go? As far as i know we do not RP with people who don't want RP, we don't talk with them, as we are supposed to talk only when we RP and as we don't RP with them, there is almost no reason to speak with PLers. So why do you worry so much about them? Besides, IMHO, you may be suprised, but they don't feel very comfortable when they finds out that they are not the main power in PS and Devs, GMs and everybody else who has somethink to say, are against them. They eighter has enough after a while and leave. Or stay and don't really disturbs us, even if they have high stats and skills.
To people who RP a lot and train much less:
Then i suppose you are RPing someone who isn't really skilled in fighting, crafting or mining? If you never spent enough time on training, you can never call yourself a good warrior. If you didn't craft enough, you cant be good crafter. If you don't spent time in a mine everytime you are online, you can't be a good miner.
And you can still RP while doing all this. But if you RP somethink else most of the time, why do you RP your character to be someone else than what he does?
You start with character who barely knows somethink, so you can't be anybody, you are restricted.
Also, your char may be someone basing on your real limits. I mean... I will never play aristocrat character, because i don't know how to do it well. People with not enough time can't have ulbernaut slayer.
We all have our limits in this or other form.
Point 2]
Your idea only slow the process. If you stay at side and look at everything you won't really bother about individuals. It won't matter for you how long did it take to some people to reach some skill rank. You will care about having both trained and untrained in the character base. And as i said, you are only slowing the process, people will still learn multiple skills, but it will take them a year instead of 4 months.
You encourage specialisation instead of enforce.
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The only question is, should you get a point for every hour (period) or should you get a point for every hour spent playing.
It should absolutely be every hour that passes, regardless of whether you are playing, otherwise it defeats the whole point. I still think logistically a weekly reset will give more people an even chance of spending their points.
I don't know why do you want so desperately stop PLers.
Actually I agree with all your points regarding this. I myself am serious PLer, and an RPer. However, I would be happy to sacrifice the benefits of my PLing for a more naturally progressing community.
To people who RP a lot and train much less: ...
If you never spent enough time on training, you can never call yourself a good warrior.
There is a lot of debate about this. Personally I cooperate with people RPing good warriors/whatevers if they have earned it through a history of RP. They have time limitations and they have sacrificed levelling so we dont miss out on all of their good RP. My RP experience is much richer and I deal with a much wider range of characters because of it. What my suggestion seeks to do is make it possible for such players to keep up with levelling and thus more closely allign actual char skill with what is RPed without sacrificing the richiness of RP.
Point 2]
Your idea only slow the process. If you stay at side and look at everything you won't really bother about individuals. It won't matter for you how long did it take to some people to reach some skill rank. You will care about having both trained and untrained in the character base. And as i said, you are only slowing the process, people will still learn multiple skills, but it will take them a year instead of 4 months.
This idea will not slow the process, it will even it out. Ideally it should still take 4 months to learn skills which take 4 months now. Make them easier to level, but make it so you can only do so much levelling in a week. The point is, all dedicated players interested in levelling will be able to progress at a similar rate over time, whether they play 28 hours a week or 140 hours a week. I would suggest enough points in a week to enable about 14-21 hours of levelling (2-3 hours a day, or if it suits you, 10 hours on saturday and 30min other days, with the rest of the time free to RP). Players who dont want to level still wont, but many more players will have a chance to progress in a meaningful way if they want to.
It will create a better illusion of all characters perpetually existing in the world of PS, and it will encourage people who might usually only PL to explore the world of player interaction, learn to RP, and enjoy the game rather than desperately trying to keep ahead.
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1] and 3] point is the same
I don't know why do you want so desperately stop PLers. Are they flooding our community? Your RP is spoiled no matter where you go? As far as i know we do not RP with people who don't want RP, we don't talk with them, as we are supposed to talk only when we RP and as we don't RP with them, there is almost no reason to speak with PLers. So why do you worry so much about them? Besides, IMHO, you may be suprised, but they don't feel very comfortable when they finds out that they are not the main power in PS and Devs, GMs and everybody else who has somethink to say, are against them. They eighter has enough after a while and leave. Or stay and don't really disturbs us, even if they have high stats and skills.
To people who RP a lot and train much less:
Then i suppose you are RPing someone who isn't really skilled in fighting, crafting or mining? If you never spent enough time on training, you can never call yourself a good warrior. If you didn't craft enough, you cant be good crafter. If you don't spent time in a mine everytime you are online, you can't be a good miner.
And you can still RP while doing all this. But if you RP somethink else most of the time, why do you RP your character to be someone else than what he does?
You start with character who barely knows somethink, so you can't be anybody, you are restricted.
Also, your char may be someone basing on your real limits. I mean... I will never play aristocrat character, because i don't know how to do it well. People with not enough time can't have ulbernaut slayer.
We all have our limits in this or other form.
Point 2]
Your idea only slow the process. If you stay at side and look at everything you won't really bother about individuals. It won't matter for you how long did it take to some people to reach some skill rank. You will care about having both trained and untrained in the character base. And as i said, you are only slowing the process, people will still learn multiple skills, but it will take them a year instead of 4 months.
You encourage specialisation instead of enforce.
If you really look at all of our ideas, you will realize that it's not a way to slow down the entire process of leveling; it's just a way to keep leveling within a reasonable amount. It's not like it takes a ridiculous amount of time to regain the points needed to level. THe real point is just to kepp people from getting more than 50 levels in a very short amount of time.
And if you say that the roleplay value wouldn't get any better, than I'm afraid that you are wrong. If people can only train so much withing a certain time, then they will have to make use of the rest of there time. There are a few different things they could do:
1. Sit around and mope about really wanting to train
2. Go off and fight monsters
or
3.Role Play
This means that a large goup of people who wouldn't normally consider roleplaying will pretty much have to, and if they don't like it, good, we don't want them around anyway.
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And if you say that the roleplay value wouldn't get any better, than I'm afraid that you are wrong. If people can only train so much withing a certain time, then they will have to make use of the rest of there time. There are a few different things they could do:
So i'm not wrong because i dont see myself saying it and so i don't see a reason you posting it at all.
2. Go off and fight monsters
or
3.Role Play
Have you ever tried roleplaying while fighting? Bah. I would have to write half of my post over again, read it and comment some worth arguments.
The leveling is kept in reasonable limit, but you have to look at the needs of whole society, not yours. The society consists of people with different lavel of skills and it is good. There is nothig to improve
@topic
People, if you spent most of the time drinking beer in the tavern, or hanging around Harquist or walking from place to place doing some quest which has nothing to do with fighting, then you won't be a fighter.
You want to limit training of others, so that you can be same as strong as they while doing all the stuff you like. Have you ever though that they are roleplaying their training? They are more determined than your character.
You will be skilled in talking while they in fighting. This way we have these and these people. While you want everybody to be the same. I think it collide with the very reason of this idea - specialisation.
Whats the IC, in-game world explanation for this idea anyway? You can't train anymore because you are too tired? Ok maybe if you are fighting all the time, maybe you need some time to recover mental abilities to learn. But what if you are going to learn some crafting? or mining? You are doing somethink completly different, yet you are too exhaused to get anything?
Lets say you will allow for it for the sake of some kind of realism. But what do we get then? No specialisation again. So you are gonna find some other realistic explanation to give the whole idea a bit more convincing image.
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I think the idea isn't too good, everyone's roleplaying, also through fighting...why should someone, that has a account for month but is actually online only 2 hours a day be stronger than a character, that has really trained his skills for days?
Someone that is rping always isn't fighting in your opinion - so why should he be stronger than someone that's fighting a lot?
i myself do train much...and i play a kind of good character...duelling is a matter of training for me too, i never fighted pc's alot and why should I?
Just the fact that I am stronger than someone else is no reason for me to duel him, and all training is reason to not rp...
just because other players have other opinions of what rp should be, you shouldn't want to restrict everyone that does it not your way.
i do not see any sense in only killing and do nothing else in a rpg and people who are ooc all the time are not the ones that should play planeshift...a shooter would be better for that...
but i also like to get stronger and see, that you receive more respect.
but although i do much training, i also see, that i'm a respected rp'er in yliakum
and must admit, that if i couldn't level any longer, i would most certainly create a second char for that.
to be forced to be not able to fight could be very boring...if you're a miner you want to mine to improve it, if you're kind of fighter, you want to improve your fighting through this. if you play a char, that is much into his mining, what would this workaholic look likei f you restrict it?
let's referr to real-life
you just started playing football and do train every day, unlike most of your team.
would the couch or the first quarterback or whoever tell you to stop, because you're getting better too fast?
oh, and pleeeeaaaaase let me give the answer also now
NO^^ \\o//
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Please try to keep the posts to information and constructive criticsm and leave personal preference aside.
Please try to stay on topic. This is not an anti-powerlevelling thread. It's not a debate about what is RP.
What if someone wants to play a warrior and is willing to train as much as they can, and they have about 4 hours a day for (=28 hours a week and about as much as a part-time job, strong commitment!). This would give them chance to keep up with someone with no life who plays 24 hrs a day. Otherwise how do we explain the 24-hr a day player becoming much stronger? In-character, people don't log off. They always exist.. so what was the strong warrior who the 28hr/week guy plays doing? Lying on a hammock? Their character wouldn't do that. With the current system it's impossible to play a committed specialist unless you play 24hours a day, because someone who does play 24hours a day will master your specialisation faster than you at the same time as two other skills. It is unexplainable in RP terms.
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the 24hr a day guy is an insomniac :)
trains as much as he can. The others need sleep :P
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We should be able to RP an insomniac, without being one ourselves.
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Please try to keep the posts to information and constructive criticsm and leave personal preference aside.
Please try to stay on topic. This is not an anti-powerlevelling thread. It's not a debate about what is RP.
Actually in some way it is. First post tells about stopping PL. Furher posts tells how much more people will start to RP. You can't telling it not realizing what is RP
What if someone wants to play a warrior and is willing to train as much as they can, and they have about 4 hours a day for (=28 hours a week and about as much as a part-time job, strong commitment!). This would give them chance to keep up with someone with no life who plays 24 hrs a day.
...you are restricted.
Also, your char may be someone basing on your real limits. I mean... I will never play aristocrat character, because i don't know how to do it well. People with not enough time can't have ulbernaut slayer.
We all have our limits in this or other form.
Repeating myself, play character you know you can, if it is beyond your reach, play someone else. If you decrease the time limit problem, by decreasing total training you may perform a week, then... will you decrase all possile limitations, or at least somehow make me and others more skillfull in playing all kinds of roles, so that i can plat aristocrat. Can you do that??
Otherwise how do we explain the 24-hr a day player becoming much stronger? In-character, people don't log off. They always exist.. so what was the strong warrior who the 28hr/week guy plays doing? Lying on a hammock? Their character wouldn't do that.
And how do you explain that you are training and suddently you are unable to learn? I can already imagine people going OOC because there is no realistic IC explanation: GuyA to GuyB: I reached the train cap, have fun while you still can.
So we have there OOC no matter in what system we are, so what for implement the new system? To have some other OOC instead of this which we have now?
With the current system it's impossible to play a committed specialist unless you play 24hours a day, because someone who does play 24hours a day will master your specialisation faster than you at the same time as two other skills. It is unexplainable in RP terms.
Of course it is possible, these days i spent a lot less time online, but i have no problem to find people weaker than me. Also, you are overestimating the amount of people who spent in your opinion ridiculous time online training. If it is problem, it is marginal. Besides why do you care? There are probably hundreds of people who come to PS with will to be the best fighter in Yliakum. But... erm... there may be only one. How do you want to make every single one of them happy winner? But more likely you want to make fair chances to everybody. Although i can't understand why. In RPG, the purpose is not to compete with others who is best, but existing in the current world. If there are better tha you, RP with them in this way, don't look how much time they spent playing.
As i said before, everybody has their limitations, just play your role along this.
Your system has another disadvantage. Many people will try to optimize their training and time online to the extreme limits along the progression cap, because they will have only 4h a day and to make use of Recreation Points given to them, they will have barely time to make use of all of them. They won't be thinking about the RPing in tavern and other types which don't really involve progressing. And its this what maybe you and others here would want to see. Including me btw. But i don't see this being endangered.
Sorry for quoting every single sintence of your post, but somehow it is better for good understanding.
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First post tells about stopping PL. Furher posts tells how much more people will start to RP. You can't telling it not realizing what is RP
It wasn't about stopping PLing. It was about keeping it in harmony.
When I talked about starting to RP, I was referring to people for whom levelling is an ends in itself, not part of their RP. It's better for them to learn the value of player interaction so that their pure gaming becomes RP-based.
how do you explain that you are training and suddently you are unable to learn?
The same reason school has 6 hour days and weekends. You can't overload or exhaust your mind/body.
To have some other OOC instead of this which we have now?
One system means having to say "I've had enough training for today". The other system will effect the whole role characters will have in the community and change the whole dynamic of the economy because of RL reasons.
Your system has another disadvantage. Many people will try to optimize their training and time online to the extreme limits along the progression cap, because they will have only 4h a day and to make use of Recreation Points given to them, they will have barely time to make use of all of them. They won't be thinking about the RPing in tavern and other types which don't really involve progressing. And its this what maybe you and others here would want to see.
Better to have people obsess for an average of 4 hours about making the most of their Recreation Points than have them obsess all day about trying to max out and/or overtake other serious trainers. What you describe would be the behaviour of a serious trainer. That's still actually quite a lot of training. Lots of people will choose not to use up all their points each week, but it's much more likely to be an IC decision.
play character you know you can, if it is beyond your reach, play someone else. If you decrease the time limit problem, by decreasing total training you may perform a week, then... will you decrase all possile limitations, or at least somehow make me and others more skillfull in playing all kinds of roles, so that i can plat aristocrat. Can you do that??
Just because we can't remove all limitations, doesn't mean we shouldn't remove the ones we can.
these days i spent a lot less time online, but i have no problem to find people weaker than me. Also, you are overestimating the amount of people who spent in your opinion ridiculous time online training. If it is problem, it is marginal. Besides why do you care?
Really, the main purpose for my suggestion, was to prevent players who play for a month quickly becoming more skillful than someone who has played every day for a year. The devs plan to make levelling and progression quite a slow and gradual thing. The year old player will be able to be a well-known and respected specialist who has been in their trade (eg. weapon reapair) for a long time. This system will stop a month-old player from over taking their skiills.
In the future, the upper limits of skill areas will be a lot more detailed and take a lot more progression to reach. I believe the specialists and very highly-skilled people should be those who have been a long, consistent part of Yliakum history, not those who have played constantly for a short period.
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Don't be angry with me, but I have to sa one short thing about your point.
All this "My character is better then yours" and "Your character shouldn't be better than mine" is all the same power-gamer-attitude.
For me and for many other it is not important how much strength or endurance or whatever a character has, but how you came to know him/her, if she has been there for long and so on... I 'm playing ps for about one and a half month now and already maxed my attributes...but that's no reason for me to not respect other players, that have been playing longer, even if I'm now as strong as them or maybe even stronger...apart from that I respect even very new ones with respect, and I simply don't know what your problem is, from the rp-point of view.
Is your point all about your own power-levelling and you're depressed about other who got more time to train?
Or is ps for you all about duelling and you fear you could lose when you next challenge some newbie?
Why does the time spent on levelling affect your rp so much?
Many people are pleased if there is nearly always someone around for repairing weapons...you want them to buy a new weapon averytime their's is used up and noone can repair it, even not they themselves, because they got no points for it?
Or do you want to restrict mining? Although I got pp en masse, I wouln't touch a pick for 1000 circles and thats only for rp-reasons...
And if the reason is, that others level their mining too fast: would it ffect your own?
For Fighting: Even if I can't level, I would go on fighting, you wouldnt take people from the arena with that.
And those who are often within he arena: I haven't met 2 ppl, who weren't roleplaying...those I would call powergamers or bad rp'ers are mostly found in hydlaa plaza (cause most newbies start there, and you need some time to acclimate - and it's not meant as an insult), others I met between oja and hydlaa...
Sorry, but I simply come to the conclusion, that you want to get some special treatment for being a constant player for longer than me or others. (thats rather normal, it has always been a part of human life). But if you have neglected your physical developement, it's not the fault of some characters, that do concantrate much on it....Thats the reason for progression points....with your system they have no sense any longer...
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When I play PS, I am one of the 24 hour players. I have maxed every skill that interests me as much as I want. This suggestion is not to address my personal problems, and it is not very relevant to PS in it's current state.
It is an idea for the devs to consider for the long-term development of the game. I'm sure enough has been said, and they can consider the merits for themselves.