PlaneShift
Gameplay => Newbie Help (Start Here) => Topic started by: Mad_Mordigen on September 29, 2006, 03:43:08 pm
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I sneeking around since 5 days with a blind (at the moment helpless) char and nearly nobody even stop to say hello. But to start at the begining i was killed by the otlaws (there will be a revange for that ;) ) for 6 days ago, they stollen my sweat poor char her stick toom, so she has to croching over the floor to find her way out of the DR. Finaly After 2 days!! someone stopt and helpt me (thank you for that ;) ) ( i mean he mustnt help me this is not the matter on this threat) but all the others run simply across me, without even say an grettings or reaction on what i wrote in the main channel.
Now i sneek trowh hydalla and it is the same again noone stops or ask or reackt on thinks i wrote (I mean i dont want an good reacktion but an simpel *shake her heat over this blind fool* woud be grate. But so i sneek trowh a goste town with isnt any fun i can tell
I am sorry i dont want to annoyed anybody but it is somthing thats disapoints me big becurse i hate a greate start with some rp
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Unfortunately not everyone understands that they should be in-character whenever they are in-game, and a lot of people are too busy with themselves to stop and RP with new players. A pox upon their houses ;) There are a lot of really nice people though, and I hope that you will run into them, or they into you - they are the ones who make the game alive.
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Unfortunately not everyone understands that they should be in-character whenever they are in-game, and a lot of people are too busy with themselves to stop and RP with new players. A pox upon their houses ;) There are a lot of really nice people though, and I hope that you will run into them, or they into you - they are the ones who make the game alive.
I agree, there are alot of people who roleplay and love doing it (me being one of them).
But, If someone needs to do something or wants to go and train in a hurry, they may not have time to stop and rp.
In my Opinion, alot of the roleplaying from players was lost in the transition from MB to CB.
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Thanks for answer i was quiet a bit depressed wen i wrote that :innocent: but you give ma a question what you mean with MB to CB? ???
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MB was the last major version of PlaneShift - basicly it only contained the north of Hydlaa, a minigame (xtal hunting! <3) and the chat system.
CB is the current version of PlaneShift with all the fancy stuff like skills/stats, combat, magic etc. etc.
Greetings
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Not many people in RL have time to stop and chat to strangers either. :)
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Not many people in RL have time to stop and chat to strangers either. :)
That is a good point Xordan, but, if you do stop and talk to people in Real life, 7 out of 10 will stop and talk to you.
EDIT: Ahhh I remember the good old days. The exitement of finding that blue diamond on the floor.
/me Reminices.
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Not many people in RL have time to stop and chat to strangers either. :)
That depends on what your priorities are.
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I haven't played this since the previous major release, with the crystal hunting....
Now, this game is worse.
I also seem to have problems getting any help in game...
Luckily, I stayed online for 3 hours, in town, running around and asking constantly... finally got some answers and was able to get started...
Couldn't there be a "generic" first quest, with a complete, total walkthrough posted (with pictures), so total newbies can get proper help to just get into the game?
I know we have the guide.... it isn't bad, but it also doesn't say enough to give a new player actually started.
I must have picked the wrong race, as my character is slow as hell. It is tortue just to walk from the tavern to the blacksmith.
Why didn't I start with enough money to buy SOMETHING? I picked my character's history SPECIFICALLY to have starting money. I got nothing. And there is only ONE person to sell rat crap to? And all you can tell us is their NAME?! I can't find an in game map, so a NAME does me no good. The village is a mess! I get lost in 2 turns.
There should at least be a map of the starting village, with ONE mission entrance (like the sewer access), and enough detail to see the dead ends. Leave it to the players to fill in their own notes...
Or make an in game map. This is ridiculous for people that haven't been playing this forever...
And where is the complete list of valid NPC interactions? No one knows what I mean when I say "Where can I find steel stock", or "Where is steel stock", or "How do I get steel" or anything that would make SENSE to ask! "Where is the tavern" gets me "Follow the sound" THERE IS NO SOUND FROM THE TAVERN. Just give us a crappy map and compass. Make it so the player has to create it, I don't care... just some sort of GPS... This is *really* frustrating, since nobody feels like talking 95% of the time.
Roleplaying is fine and dandy, just get a channel/room/whatever that has people talking normal words about how to play. The 'help' room is a good idea, but having to click to see the damage I'm dealing in a fight, then clicking back to see the chat.... sucks. Spilt the tabs on that window to individual windows... and support 1280 x 960 please!
It's nice to see how far this has gotten, but something was definately lost between this version and the last one.... Something that made the old one, where all you could do is pick up gems and buy items of no use, much more fun than this.
I have never played an MMORPG besides the earlier version of this and one other failed free mmorpg... I really want to, but cannot afford to pay to play something I might not get to play often...
Where could I possibly find enough information to get a stupid quest completed? Am I *NOT* supposed to do a quest? There needs to be more direction, at least until the 'birth affects' stuff can actually affect the player character. I can't even figure out how to get a weapon... let alone how to train in it, or anything else to do with "normal" rpg elements.
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I sneeking around since 5 days with a blind (at the moment helpless) char and nearly nobody even stop to say hello. But to start at the begining i was killed by the otlaws (there will be a revange for that ;) ) for 6 days ago, they stollen my sweat poor char her stick toom, so she has to croching over the floor to find her way out of the DR. Finaly After 2 days!! someone stopt and helpt me (thank you for that ;) ) ( i mean he mustnt help me this is not the matter on this threat) but all the others run simply across me, without even say an grettings or reaction on what i wrote in the main channel.
Now i sneek trowh hydalla and it is the same again noone stops or ask or reackt on thinks i wrote (I mean i dont want an good reacktion but an simpel *shake her heat over this blind fool* woud be grate. But so i sneek trowh a goste town with isnt any fun i can tell
I am sorry i dont want to annoyed anybody but it is somthing thats disapoints me big becurse i hate a greate start with some rp
hmm... say hi and i'll respond :)
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Now THAT is a rant! :'(
You must remember, this is still only a test version of the game. There are still many features to be implemented. To quote Kary...
You are a Tester first, and player Second.
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Okay, I feel *really* dumb.
My utmost apologies for my grievances presented, as I have literally just found this sticky http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21480.0
Now, would it be an illegal thing to attempt a basic drawing of the city with lines leading to those locations? Would I not be able to share it?
A better suggestion would be to just put a mini-map in game...
And perhpas posting the sticky I mentioned on the homepage of the entire game, instead of simply in the forums?
That sticky holds the keys to most of the n00b questions.... and in-game, no one referred me to it...
::Mental note:: Read the stickies!!!!
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You could definitely make that map for yourself, but you'd have to share it privately. That would mean no posting it on these forums or any public place that is available to everyone - maps are shared between guildmembers, close friends, etc. :}
Maps in-game will appear - and while they won't be automaps in the corner of your window showing you your and everyone else's position, you'll have a better idea of your surroundings.
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Well, here's to the induction of maps in the future!
\\o//
Hmmm... guilds? methinks I will stay away from those... I am a casual gamer... keyword: casual
heh... okie dokie, I'll see what I can dig up for a basic map of the city...
thanks
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Ah no!
You should get a in a guild, it really opens up a whole new element to the game.
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It's easy to feel lonely when you first arrive into an unknown place. How can you meet more people? make more friends and feel the real addiction for PS?
First, you need to be comfortable with game mechanics, with what is implemented and what's not.
After reading this useful sticky (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21480.0) and what's linked in it, it will be easier for you to find friends, in or outside a guild.
The thing is that your online time is as precious than the one of the people you meet is for them. They don't want to waste time typing all over again, what is already posted somewhere by people more competent (*Karyuu not to name her*).
Now that you know what can and can't be done ingame, you have to find pple to share the fun with you. I say you "have to" because you can not simply wait for everyone to offer you some time or help. You must consider that there is no blinking sign over you head saying "I feel lonely" and that the world is full of people having fun without having to offer help to everyone on their way.
1: avoid busy people.
People running from a fight to a trade, from training to practice, from Death to life... might have little time to spend on new friendships at this time. You might as well meet them later when they have done what seemed important for them at this time. This is also valid for people in an active conversation. Being busy reading what is said to them, answering, ... they have less time to start a conversation with you.
2: don't look like a random "player"
Others won't pay attention to you if you act or talk like a random kid who downloaded a free game. Once again, not asking n00b questions is possible once you have done some readings. Don't beg for free stuff. Most of the time you only earn what you deserve.
3: be polite
Even if your character is an evil doer, he should be able to act/talk like a civilised person in a civilised world.
Whatever you need; an advice, a direction, a hint, ... Don't simply ask your question before running away.
4: Greet people
The command in /greet. It will make your character greet his target or everyone if nothing is targeted. When there are too many people, greeting each of them will flood the chat and make your arrival more a disturbance than a pleasure. Clearing target can make you greet everyone at once.
5: Introduce yourself
Say what brings you here. If you are simply looking for friends, it's even better. Too many (see point2) are only interrested in talking when they need something. If you are not fluent in english, it's the occasion to say it, as long as you use properly a [OOC] quotation. It may look simplistic but saying "Hello, my name is X [sorry for my bad english but I am ....]" tells others a lot about you and your character. It says that you are polite, that you know about RPing, that you made the effort to talk in english, ... In other words, it says that you are someone worth talking to.
Of course if you are rather fluent, you can skip the [] part and people will still see that you are polite and RPing :)
6: Find people sharing your interrests.
Of course you can try to talk to everyone then find out who will become and friend and who will become a foe...But among the many people in Yliakum there are some that you can easely identify by the guildsymbols (shown in the label above the head). Looking in the guilds forums will make you familiar with the guilds you are close. No need to read about each and every guild. Some guild are created, advertised then disbanded. Therefore keeping an up to date list is almost impossible. But remembering a name when you meet a member can tell you a lot about him.
7: Give people a chance to answer you.
When you'll have a lot of friends, guildmates, tasks to do, ... You will realise that it's not easy to answer quickly to everyone. So leave people the time to read what you say, type an apropriate answer, spellcheck it then send it back to you. Even the server can from time to time add to this time :)
8: Don't feel ignored
If you have done all this the right way, don't be frustrated when someone in particular looks like ignoring you. There are many possible causes.
- He ignored you. Then it's not the kind of people you'll consider a friend.
- He was AFK. Who knows what can happen to a player while his char is connected? From phonecalls to door rings, we all have reasons to leave the keyboard once in a while without having to disconnect.
- He was busy. A character standing apparently idle can be very active. Chatting in private, sorting things in his backpack (inventory), reading a note (forums, irc, instant messaging, ...), who knows?
9: Don't force others.
This is valid about roleplaying, duelling, chatting, shouting, trading, and everything that implies you and another player.
The most you can do is invite people to join your activity. Each can decline for many personal reasons or accept. Leave them a choice.
10: Don't ignore others.
You are not the only one ready to make new friends. You might meet a newcomer like you or someone more skilled with time avaliable for a talk. There are nowadays a lot of friendships that were forged on the first day between newcomers who discovered the world at the same time and shared this knowledge.
11: Have fun :)
It's the most important part of course. And you will really find it much easier when you share the fun. So even if I started this by stating that pple can have over things to do than to offer help to everyone they meet, you can still decide to offer you help. Be sure that lost people in the death realm, wounded fighters, lonely drinkers, ... there are a lot of people that will enjoy your company.
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Nice post Hadfael!
If you need help you must ask. Shout (/shout help!) if necessary. Many of us, will bend over backwards to help you. Most of us know exactly where you're coming from. I spent three days trying to find my way out of the Death Realm. On the third day, I asked someone to lead me out.
Someone that is in the DR has one goal (usually), to get out. They are usually running and aren't looking to find people to help out of the DR.
When in the plaza, we usually have something going on. I don't just stop and talk to people I walk passed unless I know them. That is my character, both in real life and in game. I will stop if someone says, "I need help". The exception is that I spend some time in the sewers, actively looking for the new, equiping them with blades. I haven't done this in several weeks. Maybe it's time to go back there?
The point I'm making is that most of the willing people I know, don't just see random people and go up to them and start talking. I think that is too much to expect of the players of this game.
If you need help, just ask. In fact, type '/buddy Araye' the next time you're online. Then you'll know when I'm on and can help you. Or do a '/who enlight'. This will tell you who of my guild is online. All of The Enlightened will help you. Our guild was not specifically designed to help the new, but we certainly will. There are MANY guilds who's sole purpose is to help the new. Search the guild board for specific guilds.
Araye Bayebes
The Enlightened
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I feel I need to post this. In the last days, after creating a char and trying the client out (unfortunalety my video card is just close to the bare minimum), I've been reading through the forum.
I tell how I felt like when I just connected. I started exploring, but also tried not to talk to people, or interfer with their activity in any way. That included running away, changing direction when someone headed my way, hiding behind walls and corners. I think it's impossible to enter the world and being able to RP with others. I felt I needed someone to tell me what to do.
I also realized my ideas about RP are quite different from those expressed on the forum by most people. For example, I don't feel offended when someone talks OOC. I think that any player is perfectly able to recognize OOC talks and actions, and mix them with IC ones, while still being able to enjoy the IC part. Ever played D&D? Do players need to state "hey, i'm gonna roll dice, please note this is OOC action!" - "IC action: I'm attacking the dragon" . Of course not. No one would think the warrior got a couple of dice out of his pocket in the middle of the fight and rolled them just for fun... or that the player is attacking a dragon IRL!
The whole game (in D&D and other RPG) is about mixing IC and OOC actions and talks, and none of the player is worried about that. Also I don't see much difference when I'm RPing if I see on the screen someone saying "Hi, I'm new, how does this game look like" or "[Hi, I'm new, how does this game look like]". Really. My brain would add those brakets anyway, it's second nature, just as when the phone rings. And if there's disruption of the "IC state", I don't really see how brakets really help.
The above applies even more when I read "You are a Tester first, and player Second." Fine, but testing is an OOC activity by its nature. So I read: "we're OOC first, and IC second". Also if you know you're on a test server, your know that the game may be interrupted for any reason. I think this includes a newbie stepping by and saying hi (an issue that's striclty related to the testing nature of the server - in a final product, you may expect that newbies start in some well-defined areas, where they learn about RP). There's something wrong if you really get annoyed by the testing nature of the server, including issues with newbies and people who don't RP.
It would be easier if newbies are given a minimal common background. Say they are all from a village named "NewbieTown" (of course, find a better name...), which lies north of the spawning place. Give them directions to the main plaza. Now all they need to do is saying "Hi! I'm from NewbieTown" (or anything along the line), which is a nice IC way of saying "Hi, I'm new to the game". Players know they're gonna meet newbies there, and react accordingly (and no, that's not a good place to RP, and you know that - the so-called "evil characters" won't be a problem). Players would initiate OOC chats if they feel like to ("Do you need any help with the game?").
Note that "NewbieTown" doesn't need to be implemented at all. Just give newbies a minimal script to act upon. Maybe one day NewbieTown will be implemented, and newbies will be allowed to leave it only after displaying some RP skills. Still, 'Hi, I'm from NewbieTown" will be valid, and tell a lot about the player to the other players, while still being fully IC. Of course, there could be more than one NewbieTown, so not everone needs to share a common background.
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ya know i actualy agree with some of that themule
i never really gave i much thaught but ur right in a way
but yes asking for help is for the most part the only way to get help. we cant tell if your new or just an alternate character
unless i see you wandering around the plaza for a week i might stop to see what might be goin wrong for ya
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Themule, once you've been around for a while, you'll understand why OOC chatter is such a nuisance.
Unlike AD&D, video games have the mechanics built into them.
There have already been many calls for a noob town.
Avoiding people is a mistake.
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I must concede that I, too, fin the statement "tester first, player second" to be a bit misleading.
I think that it is supposed to mean that
- when there's a bug or some other problem, we are expected to check if it is known, and if not, report it.
- we are allowed to make use of the implementation if possible, even if it is not really IC; however, shall avoid it when currently in some RP, i.e., do it more or less privately
- we are expected to not be annoyed if the game acts up, and to know about, understand and accept the side-effects of testing, including: lack of implementation, severe breakage, server crashes, unannounced changes in behaviour, prolonged outages of parts of or the entire system, wipes, frequent and huge updates, unfinishedness of every sort, etc..
However, it does not mean that we're supposed to RP only when there's nothing else to do. It has been stated several times that we are expected to play the game as if it was finished, which includes to RP, to not exploit bugs, to not abuse the system, etc., because only this way the game can be tested properly (i.e., by simulating the final environment to it).
Obviously, the development state PS is in will force playtesters into full tester mode more often than a semi-finished game, but that's not to be confused with purely OOC testing.
The way you decide to start your PS experience depends on you, to some extent. You are expected to have read up on at least the major parts, like the overall background ("History" section on the main site). Also, you are expected to be familiar with the controls, at least in theory, by having read the player's guide.
The game does have a tutoring mode (the figure with exclamation mark that'll appear whenever you do something new for the first time) It is limited, but also tells things one may not know yet.
You are further expected to be in general agreement with PS's mindset (notably RP-basedness) and proper netiquette.
Whether you choose to first get comfourtable with the controls, possibly customising them, explore the major elements of the game and parts of the world and only then start to interact with others, or make contact even with only theoretical knowledge, thereby possibly having the additional enjoyment of exploring in company, is up to you.
I don't think that actively avoiding people is necessary if you have read up on the background first, especially since there's little additional general information to be found ingame.
However, it is preferred to have at least a basic idea of the character that you are playing (general personality / mindset), so that you can meaningfully interact with other characters.
Regarding MB: I found the crystal hunt horrible for it's utter OOC-ness. The lengths people went to in order to "win" a completely use- and mindless game showed some of the reasons why the RL world is the way it is, and served to highlight / prove necessity of some of the strict rules that PS finally has and will have. Insofar, it was, well, educating, but that's more or less all the good that can be said about it, and I'm glad it's gone. Yes, starting CB with a fighting system wasn't much better, but I'm not going to re-state the obvious.
@themule: One of the problems of undesignated OOC is that it is by far not always possible to infer the context from the text, and things can get very confusing. The reason is that, unlike in a P&P RPG, you have no means of interaction with the other player other than the text and video, none of them can show you actions, body language, or any other clues of what the other might be referring to. While "My computer is so slow!" clearly is OOC, how about "I have _no_ idea why I'm even putting up with you!"? Add to that the limited space, the long time it takes to type/read, and the possibility of lost / overlooked messages, and you'll easily see why undesignated OOC can easily lead to disruption. Now, even if the conversation were to stay nice and friendly, imagine what happens in a case of one player thinking it is IC and the other thinking it is OOC for an extended period, like an hour? For one, the RP will be completely invalid, and if the player intended to RP, then they may very well become frustrated upon finding out. Likewise, the OOC-er may easily be frustrated by realising that they've been socialising with something nonexistant (a virtual character in a game).
Then also add that in order to infer OOC-ness from the content, you must first have read at least part of the sentence, while with brackets you can skip it immediately, which in turn leaves you with more time to focus on the IC conversation (and vice-versa).
Last but not least it serves as a constant reminder that IC is encouraged and OOC is, at best, endured.
support 1280 x 960 please!
It does already. In fact, it supports more or less any resolution you could possibly want, and a lot of resolutions that you certainly don't want on top of that (like the 1280 x 96 that I once accidently set it to :) )!
Simply run the setup application (pssetup), select "other" (or whatever it's called) and enter the desired resolution there.
However, know that your name "Demon Lord" is not in accordance with the naming policy and will therefore get reported if you used if for your character.
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We aren't just testing the programming. We're testing and working on what it means to roleplay. We're finding out what social capital and infrastructure is necessary for roleplaying to take place. We're also doing things like working out the kinks in the players policy guide, and we're also helping to perfect the Game Master protocols when we step out of line.
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We aren't just testing the programming. We're testing and working on what it means to roleplay. We're finding out what social capital and infrastructure is necessary for roleplaying to take place. We're also doing things like working out the kinks in the players policy guide, and we're also helping to perfect the Game Master protocols when we step out of line.
Shame that no one seems to be paying us any attention, eh?
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We aren't just testing the programming. We're testing and working on what it means to roleplay. We're finding out what social capital and infrastructure is necessary for roleplaying to take place. We're also doing things like working out the kinks in the players policy guide, and we're also helping to perfect the Game Master protocols when we step out of line.
Shame that no one seems to be paying us any attention, eh?
Uh, what? ???
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Now, even if the conversation were to stay nice and friendly, imagine what happens in a case of one player thinking it is IC and the other thinking it is OOC for an extended period, like an hour? For one, the RP will be completely invalid, and if the player intended to RP, then they may very well become frustrated upon finding out. Likewise, the OOC-er may easily be frustrated by realising that they've been socialising with something nonexistant (a virtual character in a game).
Then also add that in order to infer OOC-ness from the content, you must first have read at least part of the sentence, while with brackets you can skip it immediately, which in turn leaves you with more time to focus on the IC conversation (and vice-versa).
Well, constantly misunderstanding each other? For one hour? Possible, ok, but quite unlikely. Yeah, "How are you, today" has both an IC and OCC meaning, if it's the first thing someone says. As far as I'm concerned, feel free to answer either OOC or IC or something else which is still neutral ("Fine, thank you"). Should you get it wrong, the other player has only to tell you "I meant IC" (which is clearly OCC) and that's all. And anyway, unless you (the player) live in a medieval world, I find it very unlikely the issue is not settled in the first 30 seconds of talking... the more the players/characters involved, the sooner someone will say something clearly IC or OCC.
It's only that I don't fill it disturbing if the IC experience gets interupted, I can switch easily. Don't you do the same? When you click on something, and it takes 3-5 seconds to open the graphical menu, what do you think? "damn lag" or "I must be under someone's spell that slows me down"? Our brain is accepting many, many OOC inputs, still is able to build a virtual world and a virtual mindset.
BTW, you (as forum members) are very careful in distinguishing between the "player" and the "character". Still the forum it's full of references that get it wrong (inside posts written by people who know RP, developers or authors of RP guides, and not by newcomes) and nobody really notices/cares. That's because the difference is so clear in your mind that you get it right even when it's explicitly written wrong! Which is what I mean when I say "You don't need [ ] for OOC".
Last but not least it serves as a constant reminder that IC is encouraged and OOC is, at best, endured.
This again I don't understand. When people are on stage, there are a lot of OOC talks, unless they're actually performing. 95% of the job of an actor is OOC anyway. That's why I stressed the "testing" part. As I see it, it's like preparing a huge play, with actors gathering and sharing ideas. Of course, there's room for a lot of IC action, but even that is just "testing". You can enjoy it, of course. But that's not "it". They're still building the stage, after all.
When some starter areas are done, and people leave then only after they get some experience in RP, and many details are defined, then you can say that's "it". And even then, I'm not frowing on OOC talks expecially when their purpose is improving the RPing. Just like when actors shooting a scene get interrupted by the director, and start (OOCly) talking about the scene. I really doubt De Niro prepends "this is OOC: " everytime he talks to the director... and still everyone, from actors to cameramen, know that's OOC.
Please note that I don't mean that OOC random chats should be allowed, everytime, everywhere. There's MSN for that. That's against the purpose of the game. Players spending most of the time chatting (OOCly), well, are technically keeping game resources busy for nothing. That's an abuse, and should be punished.
Also, when some RP event is on, everybody should try and keep costantly IC, leaving OOC to /tells and such. Think of turning on the "ON AIR" signal. I don't think there's one of those signals in the world that's constantly on. Again, these are only my thoughts on the matter, I don't mean to have anything changed... :)
*edit*
We aren't just testing the programming. We're testing and working on what it means to roleplay. We're finding out what social capital and infrastructure is necessary for roleplaying to take place. We're also doing things like working out the kinks in the players policy guide, and we're also helping to perfect the Game Master protocols when we step out of line.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand which side you're supporting. :)
It could be mine: testing "what it means to RP" is OOC activity anyway to me. Of course you need some IC action in order to do that, but that's the instrument, not the goal. That's as long as you're "testing". Once you're "performing", that's another matter.
Think of the stage analogy. You're trying your part, when a light technician arrives and changes a lamp. Feel free to ignore him. How about a newbie popping and saying "Hi, I like this game". Is it so different, on PS? Either ignore him, or go on mixing RP to other players and OOC to the newbie... I really doubt anyone (but the newbie, maybe) would misunderstand what's happening.
Please avoid posting two or more successive posts before others have replied. Just "Modify" your last post to add new information. Thanks! --Karyuu
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Acting and roleplaying are two VERY different things. >:(
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@ themule: I like the stage example, because it fits very well. In fact, I've used it as well in similar contexts.
Let's get this clear: I'm not against any and all OOC. I am fully aware that OOC is indeed needed in order to clarify the ongoing RP, to set up meetings for continuation of RP, to announce logout, etc..
Likewise, PS-related things are valid in OOC as well, like verifying / working around bugs.
However, as I said, distinguishing it by brakets eases the ignoring of it by those who don't want to be bothered by it ATM or at all. Also, while it isn't necessarily hard to switch between IC and OOC, it is more pleasant to not have to do it. And of course the issue of the clogged up chat box still remains. Thus, I think there's valid reason to minimise OOC around ongoing RP.
The main difference between our views seems to be that you regard all RP happening ingame to be "practicing for a play", while I view it as "improvising a play". This is because it would make neither sense nor for much enjoyment to be constantly "practicing" for a play that will not be performed for several years to come, especially knowing that by that time, it is highly unlikely that the part you've been practicing still is in the play (and you on stage, for that matter).
You can, of course, "learn by doing", that is, building your RP expertise while RPing, but there cannot be a "practicing mode", for there is no script, it's only improvising, and will always be.
If we were to merely practise, then this would reduce us to testing the game mechanics, and therefore we would never be able to be truly IC, thus removing any and all appeal of PS, at least for me.
I view the entirety of PS as finished WRT my char's POV, and I'm going to keep that char into the final version, including every bit of the history acquired while playing PS right from my first login. If you are not going to do that, then nothing that you do, nothing that happens to your char ingame now has any meaning, and there will be no point in fleshing out your char at all if you're only going to play it when PS V 1.0 is released. Even worse, the meaninglessness of your char may propagate into other's chars histories by interaction, possibly invalidating (parts of) it, too. An example of this is if your char plays some important part in my chars life at some point, and upon PSV1.0, you re-create your char as "fresh" (=blank) char: I'll find myself unable to refer to these sections at all, thus I may retroactively be unable to explain certain actions of my char.
BTW, the example about constantly misunderstanding is not as improbable as it may seem at first glance. In fact, it has already happened to me. In one of the occasions the result could be rectified only by a PM on the forum (that particular encounter lasted for precisely 30 minutes and 13 seconds). Imagine talking about joining a guild, and you'll easily see why IC and OOC can be less than distinct context-wise.
Think of the stage analogy. You're trying your part, when a light technician arrives and changes a lamp. Feel free to ignore him. How about a newbie popping and saying "Hi, I like this game". Is it so different, on PS? Either ignore him, or go on mixing RP to other players and OOC to the newbie... I really doubt anyone (but the newbie, maybe) would misunderstand what's happening.
This case is very clear, obviously. Still, it can break the mood, especially in a tense IC situation. Worsened by the fact that you'll need to read the OOC before noticing that it's OOC: you have just wasted time, which you can't spend on IC anymore.
May be trivial once, but imagine this happening every minute. Further imagine that you're the friendly type who feels that one must respond: so you'll be wasting more time on OOC, even if just asking them to leave for the time being.
Additionally, you'll make all RPers that RP with you at that time wait, thereby wasting their time, too. Now add to this that each of them may be politely typing a response to the newbie, and while not multiplying, it does add to the time, especially when one actually starts an OOC conversation with the newbie.
The slower the pace of RP is, the less appealing it is. This slowdown arises from /tell, /group and /guildchat or any external messager as well, obviously.
It's just no fun to have to wait a minute or more for every response: reading and typing is slow enough to be cumbersome already.
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The answer to "How are you?" IC and OOC can be different.
kran: How are you?
enki: I am ill
kran: Sad to hear that. One second
the kran runs away and come back 1hour later after runny across all maps killed a few mobs standing in his way...
kran: I have bought healing potions. You want one?
enki: I have a flew IRL
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In roleplaying, you adopt a character and then you're thrown into a situation where you have to adopt the role of that character. Going out of character ruins the effect. Asking for a do-over ruins the effect. Acting according to a prewritten script goes against what roleplaying actually is. And so on.
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[Sorry for my late reply. I'm somehow used to forum that warn you when someone replies to you, and keep a list of threads you're on.]
@Hadfael
Well, your example is badly chosen, it's definitely hard to imagine that the player who sees the kran run away won't realize the other player is taking IC actions in response to his OCC words. A simple /tell would fix that, w/o waiting a full hour. That's an easy situation. If a player isn't able to recognize 'running away' as IC action, he lacks the basic RP skills. I agree there may be hard situations, but that's not one of them.
@zanzibar
My point was not going OOC in the middle of IC. My point was: what are [] for? I agree with all your arguments, no questions about that. It's just that all you wrote holds even if the players used [] for their OOC. Also there can be different situations. You can be in a "deep RP" chat/action or just casual RP. In "deep RP", any OCC, with [] or without, ruins the effect to some extents. More on that below.
@Seytra
Thank you for your lenghy answer. Definitely you have points. If it was up to me, I'd set up two different modes on the avatar, IC and OOC, with chatting going to two different channels. I would even turn transparency on for avatars (i'm not calling them characters or players on purpose: in IC mode, the avatar is the character, in OCC mode it's the player) in OCC mode, so that they look like "shadows" to players in IC mode, making it easier to ignore them. That would improve the experience for both RPers and newbies. If you state that players in IC mode won't hear/pay attention to you if you're OOC, newbies won't feel ignored, like they (rightfully) are now. I really understand why most people ignore "Hey where do I find a weapon"-newbies at Harnquist. But I'm not sure they (the newbies) understand. If you need to quit (OOC action, since characters aren't supposed to disappear) turn on OOC mode, say bye, and leave.
Maybe my views are biased by table-RPGs. You won't get any good game if it's the first time you gather together, unless the players are good and the Master is very good. And we have no Master on PS, most of the time. My point is that a good RP session (on table-RPGs) needs preparation, and not only skill. A lot of preparation.
I definitely agree that "improvising" is where the fun comes from. But in a table game the Master will keep players "on track", keeping the (hopefully right) balance between "improvisation" and "direction". Because in any story there must be a direction, right? So if I have to find something in your post, I don't agree on:
there cannot be a "practicing mode", for there is no script, it's only improvising, and will always be.
Without a Master, you need much more coordination among players. And that's not "improvising", it's keeping a direction. And you need OOC talk for that.
It's quite possible that, once you establish a context, and play with your usual fellows, this coordination is most implict. But that's not learning RP, it's just creating a common base to share.
I think that RP on PS could be much more that "going to from Hydlaa to Ojaveda in a RP way". Maybe now there isn't much to be achived, in game. But in my views I see PS almost fully developed, a huge world with many, many things that may be done by a group of players. Each one may be turned into a RP adventure, in the D&D sense. Not a script (with prewritten dialogs and actions) but a story (with a general direction).
Anyway I've been playing for a while now. I have no problems in using [] for my OOC. It's just that I notice that I'm doing that most of the time (ok, I tend to help newbies, and I'm still learning the game myself, so that's quite normal). Usually I group with people just to have a handy OOC private channel and not to disturb other ppl with OOC public chat. The whole point is that most of the time I end up non using [] because they're useless. I keep using them only at Harnquist or in other crowded areas, and only because there may be ppl that think they need them.
I still don't think any decent RPer needs those [] to recognize OOC. And also I don't pay much value to "forced RP", when you take a long, not natural way to do IC what you could simply do OOC in a second, expecially with it involves a newbie who has no idea of what RPing is.
As I see it, /group* /guild* even /tell are all OOC, since our characters aren't supposed to be telepathic. So, if you use them in short range, their RP meaning can be whispering. Any long range chat can only be OOC. /guildsay "Let's meet at the area" it's all OOC. I remember of a MUD that had no tell support. You had to go to a mage and buy a magical glass orb (a kind of fantasy radio device) to be able to send your words to your peer (who had to have one, too, of course). That was an attempt to make long distance tells IC.
As for guilds, they are a game mechanism, and a RP feature at the same time. It's grey area, no wonder there may be problems in keeping OOC/IC separated. Anyway players should not care much about which guild their characters choose to join, as long as it's their characters' choice (little room for OOC reasons here).
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Maybe my views are biased by table-RPGs. You won't get any good game if it's the first time you gather together, unless the players are good and the Master is very good. And we have no Master on PS, most of the time. My point is that a good RP session (on table-RPGs) needs preparation, and not only skill. A lot of preparation.
I definitely agree that "improvising" is where the fun comes from. But in a table game the Master will keep players "on track", keeping the (hopefully right) balance between "improvisation" and "direction". Because in any story there must be a direction, right? So if I have to find something in your post, I don't agree on:
there cannot be a "practicing mode", for there is no script, it's only improvising, and will always be.
Without a Master, you need much more coordination among players. And that's not "improvising", it's keeping a direction. And you need OOC talk for that.
We haven't needed any preperation or OOC talk IG at all really. Why on earth would you want the little ammount of unnessesary OOC mixed in with your RP. Its just one step closer to Runescape. If all the players went around talking about stats and what not in the open then the new players would see it and assume that the RP guides and settings were largly ignored like in other "RPGs."
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Oh. I'll agree with that - using brackets does not make OOC chatter ok.
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We haven't needed any preperation or OOC talk IG at all really. Why on earth would you want the little ammount of unnessesary OOC mixed in with your RP. Its just one step closer to Runescape. If all the players went around talking about stats and what not in the open then the new players would see it and assume that the RP guides and settings were largly ignored like in other "RPGs."
I take you deny any value to preparation, and any role for the Master in a board RPG? Yes? No? In what RPing on PS is supposed to be different? You thing you don't need a Master? You think you don't need a story? Ever played D&D or other board RPGs at all?
And please... "all the players went around talking about stats" has nothing to do with RP preparation and direction at all!
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Once again let me state these my own ideas on RPing. Feel free not to share them. If you don't agree, say it, but please explain too. "We haven't needed any preperation or OOC talk IG at all really" - why?
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IG. As in In Game. Its not nessesary IN GAME. There are forums with PM systems and there are tells if abosolutly unavoidable but why include it in with the IC? Why?
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If you mean, "use group chat instead", I'm ok. That's what I do. If you mean /tell, that makes no sense, if you have to say something to other 5 people. Do we agree that 99% of what you write in the group/guild chat window is OOC, inherently, and there's no need to add []?
The Master is 50% of the RP game. He does nothing and everything at the same time. PS is different, but I think you still need both preparation (we agree you can do that on forums) and direction IG. IG as In Game, yeah. That's the Master's job in a table RPG.
Listen, I've already wrote this is my idea of RP.
Saying "No" won't make me change my mind. Explaining me why you feel you don't need a Master in your RP (or enough player OOC cooperation to overcome the lack of), that would help. In my view, there can't be any good RP without a good Master directing, or very good RPers who continuosly (well almost) cooperate to operate the role of the Master. As the adventure goes on, that is.
I agree that with very good preparation, this OOC IG chat can be somehow reduced. But I don't see PS (just) as a featured enviroment where a small closed group of players gather to RP on their own. The big value here is that any time you may meet other unknown RPers, and kiss goodbye (almost) to all your preparation and welcome IG OOC coordination. I hope now you see my point.
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Yes guild and group is OOC.
If you mean, "use group chat instead", I'm ok. That's what I do. If you mean /tell, that makes no sense, if you have to say something to other 5 people. Do we agree that 99% of what you write in the group/guild chat window is OOC, inherently, and there's no need to add []?
The Master is 50% of the RP game. He does nothing and everything at the same time. PS is different, but I think you still need both preparation (we agree you can do that on forums) and direction IG. IG as In Game, yeah. That's the Master's job in a table RPG.
Listen, I've already wrote this is my idea of RP.
Saying "No" won't make me change my mind. Explaining me why you feel you don't need a Master in your RP (or enough player OOC cooperation to overcome the lack of), that would help. In my view, there can't be any good RP without a good Master directing, or very good RPers who continuosly (well almost) cooperate to operate the role of the Master. As the adventure goes on, that is.
I agree that with very good preparation, this OOC IG chat can be somehow reduced. But I don't see PS (just) as a featured enviroment where a small closed group of players gather to RP on their own. The big value here is that any time you may meet other unknown RPers, and kiss goodbye (almost) to all your preparation and welcome IG OOC coordination. I hope now you see my point.
/me points down.
Themule, once you've been around for a while, you'll understand why OOC chatter is such a nuisance.
Besides this isn't a table top RP. This is the internet. It is filled with fools and if they were not shunned for it they would not speak IC at all. I'd prefer to... wait... What is your problem with brackets anyway? Are you too lazy to type them?
I don't see the need of a 'Master' in your character's day to day life. In events OOC just mixed in would ruin the immersievness(sp?)
I hope you see my point.
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Besides this isn't a table top RP. This is the internet. It is filled with fools and if they were not shunned for it they would not speak IC at all. I'd prefer to... wait... What is your problem with brackets anyway? Are you too lazy to type them?
I hate quoting myself...
I have no problems in using [] for my OOC.
I don't see the need of a 'Master' in your character's day to day life. In events OOC just mixed in would ruin the immersievness(sp?)
I hope you see my point.
No I don't, because [] are keys on a keyboard. People have been playing RPG for 30 years w/o keyboards. And never felt they lacked []'s. A table RPG session is a continuos mix of IC and OOC. One may argue that that what's RPing is. Only when you want to stress on the acting part, and for example write scripts and wear costumes (which overall is uncommon, it's a special version of RPG), you ban or reduce OOC chat. Usually, there's a mix of different levels... strict IC, OOC description of an IC action ("I swing my sword" is OOC, in the sense that the player communicates to the Master what his char is doing or trying to do, yet it's IC action, of course), OOC game mechanisms operation (rolling dice for one), OOC description ("Master, I'm looking north from the top of the tower, what do I see?" "A forest" - note that one should really say "Master, I'm making my character look north, what does he see?" but no one would be picky enough not to use the short form), OOC direction (Master: "no, that band of mercenaries is not going to help you because you simply don't look rich enough for them to bother listening to you").
You think in PS things are different? Really? What about a group info window? Is that IC or OOC? I tell you, it's half and half. Knowing the HPs of your party makes sense, you may be able to see if one is lightly or badly wounded. But knowing the mana level is much harder to find any IC rationale for. And the bars work for someone who is at the opposite site of the Arena, too, and that's purely OOC.
How can you say that some words in the Main Chat window ruin the immersiveness (?) when your screen is already cluttered with a mix of OOC and IC inputs, including flashing guild and group tabs (whose content is OCC), bars of all kinds floating around, messages about someone who has just killed a MOB way outside your line of sight (in the default configuration you see all, including stance changes), and so on?
I'm sure your brain is already very good in filtering anything that would ruin your "feeling IC". And it's also very good at classifying the various pieces of information "this is IC, this is OOC related to IC, this is completely OOC". Among the tons of info you receive every second by looking at the monitor, I fail to understand in what a few OOC words appearing in the Main window are so peculiar.
That said, I've always used [] when saying something OOCly in public. But I saw that those who don't know what they are, don't understand why i'm using then, and those who know what they are for, would recognize the OOC speech anyway...
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Yes fair enough there is lots of OOC info on the screen but do you even have to look at that? I don't bother with it half the time and if I did I would know that it OOC before I even looked. The main tab in the chat box on the other hand is something one has to look at.
It is also something that is supposed to be totaly IC... All the time. That is the way we are asked to play the game. That is what makes the game what it is. If you don't think they're nessesary go and try to RP in one of the internet games where people don't have to.
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I sneeking around since 5 days with a blind (at the moment helpless) char and nearly nobody even stop to say hello. But to start at the begining i was killed by the otlaws (there will be a revange for that ;) ) for 6 days ago, they stollen my sweat poor char her stick toom, so she has to croching over the floor to find her way out of the DR. Finaly After 2 days!! someone stopt and helpt me (thank you for that ;) ) ( i mean he mustnt help me this is not the matter on this threat) but all the others run simply across me, without even say an grettings or reaction on what i wrote in the main channel.
Funny, this thread got so off-topic...
Read Mad_Mordigen's post, she doesn't even try to speak proper English, how does she expect anybody to RP with her? Nobody can understand her...
I wish I found her "croching over the floor to find her way out of the DR" I would have taken a screenie :)
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It is also something that is supposed to be totaly IC... All the time. That is the way we are asked to play the game. That is what makes the game what it is.
Too bad it's not true. There are messeges that are completely unrelated to your IC position in the world. Like seeing someone change stance when it's outside your line of sight (already pointed out), maybe outside the room you are in. Face it, the Main chat windows is far from pure IC. And no other chat tab is IC either, unless you're using /tell to someone next to you to "implement" IC whispers. The system tab is cluttered with OOC info, too.
If you don't think they're nessesary go and try to RP in one of the internet games where people don't have to.
Now say where I've ever written such a thing. Have I ever complained about enforcing RP? (well I've played a MUD where RP is not enforced, and there's more RP there than on PS for sure... there's no kill stealing either, even if nothing prevents it - i take MUDders are different beasts from MMORPGers.)
I'm fine with the RP requirement. I have troubles with your unexplainable (to me) horror for OCC chat (not speaking of random OOC chat, here, but of course of RP related OCC chat, such as explaining OCCly the reasons for some IC action). My reasoning:
1) RPers of all the world for decades have been playing RPGs by mixing IC and OOC w/o any trouble or need to use []; I think that (real time) OOC info greatly improves RP; this has nothing to do with RP or not. To me, by definition, RPing is mixing IC and OOC (game related, of course). Not to me only, I think any D&D player would agree.
2) this game already mixes OOC info in (for exaclty the reason stated in 1)): considering the whole screen, OCC info dominates and also in the Main chat tab OCC is present anyway, from the game itself. Is it IC that I see that Mr. X killed a Trepor while I'm fighting a Gladiator inside the Arena? Of course not. Is it IC that I see the name of characters talking to me, even if I've never met them before? of course not... the list goes on.
The point being that you don't realize that's OOC because your brain already filters that out. Recently someone introduced himself to me (char vs char) after a short conversation. That kind of surprised me, since there are two different ways to handle that OOC info (I already knew his name of course): one is to ignore it and pretend not to know the name, like he did, or think of an implicit introduction when you start chatting the first time, like I did. That's because I come from a game where you have to introduce yourself, before knowing each others' name. W/o formal introduction, all you see is a '<short description> elf/human/...', even when they talk to you. When my brains sees the name, it does this OOC->IC translation "since i know his name, we've already introduced ourselves". His brain simple deletes it. Both are correct, IC-wise. No matter how you treat it to make it compatible with your IC experience, that OOC info is present, right in the Main chat window.
3) useless, unrelated OOC chat ruins the RP experience, no doubt, but it does anyway, with or without []'s. Related OOC improves it. Sometimes a brief OOC note makes a good shortcut for lenghty, boring, overall useless IC explanation (maybe on some almost irrelevant point), speeding up the pace of RP a lot. Sure, I can use [] for that, and I do, but 99.9% of the times I realize that any decent RPer would easily recognize it as OOC and integrate it in his RP experience with no effort.
4) I'm not saying []'s should be banned, or avoided, or that they are always useless... no, sometimes when I mistype something (or type in the wrong window) I type [sorry], just to make it clear it's not part of the IC dialog. Spelling corrections sometimes are needed, and I tend to use [] for that, too. I may have problems with spelling or typing, but my char should not look drunk.
In summary, I think that:
- OOC random chat should be banned, as it is now;
- OOC RP related chat should be allowed, as it is now;
- []'s make OOC random chat no more acceptable... the rule is "don't", and not "do, but use []'s";
- there's little point in enforcing []'s for RP related OOC, as any decent RPer is able to recognize it;
- when ambiguity really arises, use []'s to make it clear it's OCC. In a table RPG this is seldom necessary. In text conversation it's easier to misunderstand, that's why brackets sometime are useful.
- sometimes != everytime
Now this post is long enogh... I'd really like to explain by example, with some RPG action. Maybe next time.
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So what your saying is that OOC should be mixed in with IC when its of relevence? Asides from the attack stances, which I'm not to sure of(I tend to not pay any attention to whats in green,) what else is there in the main? Anything that is shown to do with your character on the screen is IC. Your health, mana etc. as that is the only way of us knowing. Of course we don't say I have 86% health but we would know how injured we are.
If you don't think they're nessesary go and try to RP in one of the internet games where people don't have to.
Now say where I've ever written such a thing.
I was not talking about RP but about seperating OOC and IC. Anything else I've played is a mess.
If all the chat you hear is OOC then prehaps your spending your time with the wrong side of the community.
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Read Mad_Mordigen's post, she doesn't even try to speak proper English, how does she expect anybody to RP with her?
The original poster is obviously TRYING to speak proper english, just because they are incapable of spelling correctly influences nothing. I dont see why people cant see past the fact that the spelling is bad and just try to understand what the player is actually saying. To me the meaning is far more important than the spelling or grammar.
Not everyone has been born in an english speaking country or had the advantage of a decent education in foreign languages.
Funny, this thread got so off-topic...
Is it meant to be some sort of funny joke that you mention the fact that things have gone off topic and then go and make your own off topic remark?
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The worth of the []-brackets
@ Themule:
I was an AD&D roleplayer and I liked it a lot. I thank you for trying to explain some important mechanisms of roleplay (I myself am thinking a lot about the masters role in an MMORPG - I find it somehow given in the responsible way many guild leaders act and create RP happenings) and for trying to distinguish the relations between Player-Charakter-Game Interface-other Charakters-other Players ...
Having read all the posts in this thread I find it amazing what level the discussion has reached.
So now I see 3x real worth of that discussed brackets:
1. They help to be thinking in that different levels of acting and shifting the levels simultaneously with other players.
I consider this above discussion as very important for the PS game because it implies the question: Are we roleplaying using the computers and www technology or are we playing computer games just with the feeling to be part of a fantastic environment ... ?
2. Noticing this unusual brackets in the different chat windows gives every newbie the clue: Here is something to explain: RP is not just chatting, you are controlling two things at the same time: players and characters interaction. Wondering about the brackets this is what i first learned (ah [] here is where the guys are making the difference) - and I think it is the most important thing in PS. I see a lot of fine RP here (never looked at other games). Playing the game as a completely unexperienced MMORPG user with not really fluid English knowledge (you surely noticed yet;-) I was really happy to be given that [] clues for my understanding of phrases coming from allover the game and its chat tabs flooding my translating brain.
3. In my own roleplaying acts this [] helps me to think about this vital aspect of distinguishing. I agree, that I would not need them. With some months playing PS now my confidence in ma English has rosen up (I even dare to post here) and so did my knowledge of the games background and of the interface. But the [] help me just to remember what i actually am doing. Especially in nighttimes after havin played some hours or after larger training or exploring sessions (when PS is more like any other computergame) it helps me to stumble over a [] just to wake up thinking "Oh shure, i am actually roleplaying here." And when I am reading [] I always think "Oh, nice, here is another player which cares about the Quality of RP"
Finally: I agree, that we maybe would not need [], but as they are a mighty symbol and reminder for the RP character of Planeshift I use them as often as I can (sometimes i forget them for the given reasons - especially in /guild and /tell chat).