PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Croconil on October 03, 2006, 11:20:19 am
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I made this thread for Request from this thread... http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=25777.new#new
Because it was getting off topic.
What Multi clienting is, is where people start Planeshift up twice, and play to character at the same time to help the other one level.
What are your views on this topic?
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It is when you launch two clients on your computer at once, or on two dif computers. i no allot ppl who do this
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Multi-clienting is something possible depending on your computer config.
If you can run multiple clients on the same computer or if you have more than one computer, it is possible to run more than one character in the game at the same time.
It is ony a matter of technical possibilities but it has repercussions in roleplaying for you and for others.
There are many ways someone can use it to abuse others and sometimes abuse himself.
Let me explain this without making a "how to abuse guide".
We (should) all agree that the purpose of connecting to PS is to play the role of a character, make him grow, explore, interract with others and with the game world. Even if it's possible to switch from one character to another, acting differently, it's hard to switch all the time from one to another.
By design, PS allow each of us to create up to 4 different characters on the same account. So we can try different approachs of the game, with various backgrounds, races and decisions regarding the skills to learn, the groups of people to join and so on...It's possible since you play each one separately and manage to keep the knowledges of each one distinct from the previous ones.
The problem with multi-clients is that you can hardly be immersed in more than one relation (dialog, conflict) at once. Most of the time one of the clients will only be an idle follower of your main char when he is not used to do what the other can't in oder to respect game mechanics/guild requirements/friendships/alliances/...Using a dummy character as a puppet would mean that you roleplay a puppet master, able to do mind control on others. And so far this possibility was not added to the PS settings. It can therefore be called roleplaying a creator and his golem, but it's not roleplaying in the PS world.
The reflexion each multi-client user should ask himself is: Does each of my characters exist individualy or are the secondary ones only servants of the goals of my main character? Ain't I lieing to the people he talks to when he talks about the main char?
Is it cheating to run more than 1 char at once when the game and your config allows it?
It can be when you use a secondary character as a tool instead as a full character with individual life and motivations. At least, it's not roleplaying.
So, even if there is no explicit policy nor technical force-single-client, it will be discouraged at least to use this possibility to abuse other players, to get unfair advantage from it compared to people roleplaying fair one single char. Remember that the goal is to have everyone enjoying PS and not to allow a few with strong configs to abuse others.
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well hadfael's pose explains it pretty well, so i can only add that with multiclienting myself trying to rp with both is actually quite hard and should only be done if you are a fast typer, else you'd simply not be able to follow the conversation with both chars interacting properly with them both.
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well hadfael's pose explains it pretty well, so i can only add that with multiclienting myself trying to rp with both is actually quite hard and should only be done if you are a fast typer, else you'd simply not be able to follow the conversation with both chars interacting properly with them both.
But in reality, its almost impossible to multi-client even if you are a fast typer.
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>_>
ok, so I have my main character, and then I have alts.. spanning over 4 other accounts, I often have two running at the same time, I can interact easily with people on both at the same time, hell, I even make them RP with each other, I really don't see why people claim it's hard to do, sure you can only move one at a time or make one speak at a time, but it's still playing isn't it? they still run around, do their 'job' greet people, scratch their bum and all that jazz.
with enough determination and a strong enough computer you could play out an entire RP by yourself, then save the log of it, hey presto, instant story no editing needed.
I've run 5 clients at the same time before, it got a little sluggish but to other people, they were just more people in the world, like what they are really used for, I don;t see it as cheating, to me it's just a little extra, something out of the ordinary, and challenging
Edit: because my typing sucks
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I love multi clienting. It makes toying with people much easier. If you want to create a quest for people, you almost have to multi client unless you get someone to volounteer to help you. And that has its own set of complications associated with it.
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But what about multiclienting to help the characters kill better monsters? Such as both helping eachother to train?
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But what about multiclienting to help the characters kill better monsters? Such as both helping eachother to train?
A sword hit is a sword hit whether it's on a tefusang or an ulbernaught. If you're sharing your tefusang with someone, you're slowing yourself down.
If you want to powerlevel light armour, just park yourself infront of a rat and come back 5-15 minutes later depending on your level.
If you want to powerlevel a weapon, invest in ruined weapons.
I don't see how using multiple characters can help you powerlevel. It might be good for mining, but that's about it.
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But it shares the xp, right? So say if you have lots of weap chars, and attack high xp giving creatures, wont you get more xp?
Also, as you say, it can be used to exploit in mining and crafting, such as having one char stand next to a crafting place. The other character runs off and gets the ores and gems etc, and transports them to the other character for crafting.
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That's exactly what we don't like seeing.
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at this point I don;t think any of that really matters as it'll all be set back and undone when the database is wiped over and over, theres many other kinds of things liek this going on, I'm not one to know how what who where and when, but they're always there.
and whats wrong with playing a dumb friendly kran who's happy to carry a few extra ores for you in exchange for a yummy ruby to eat?
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But it shares the xp, right? So say if you have lots of weap chars, and attack high xp giving creatures, wont you get more xp?
You can do this with guildmates easily enough.
Also, as you say, it can be used to exploit in mining and crafting, such as having one char stand next to a crafting place. The other character runs off and gets the ores and gems etc, and transports them to the other character for crafting.
I don't see how that saves you any time.
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Also, as you say, it can be used to exploit in mining and crafting, such as having one char stand next to a crafting place. The other character runs off and gets the ores and gems etc, and transports them to the other character for crafting.
I don't see how that saves you any time.
If one character is skilled in mining, you dont have to train your other character in mining if you want to level thier crafting.
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Also, as you say, it can be used to exploit in mining and crafting, such as having one char stand next to a crafting place. The other character runs off and gets the ores and gems etc, and transports them to the other character for crafting.
I don't see how that saves you any time.
If one character is skilled in mining, you dont have to train your other character in mining if you want to level thier crafting.
That sounds like a waste of time compared to levelling the mining and crafting abilities of a single character.
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If one character is skilled in mining, you dont have to train your other character in mining if you want to level thier crafting.
That sounds like a waste of time compared to levelling the mining and crafting abilities of a single character.
It may be a waste of time, but the fact is there is people who do it. ::|
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Also, as you say, it can be used to exploit in mining and crafting, such as having one char stand next to a crafting place. The other character runs off and gets the ores and gems etc, and transports them to the other character for crafting.
I don't see how that saves you any time.
If one character is skilled in mining, you dont have to train your other character in mining if you want to level thier crafting.
Though, surely it is more desireable to have high level skills on the one char...?
Generally, as you can see from the responses to this thread - running multiple clients at the same time is frowned upon. As are the activities associated with it, power leveling, item dump chars and others.
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Is there a way to do it like Steam games? Which is where it detects if one is already running and stops you from starting two of the same game, or starting Steam twice.
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I agree with zanzibar that there are legitimate rp uses for multiclienting. If anyone has ever seen Haag and Xillix arguing together that is all me. Both of these characters are separately developed and have their own personalities and ambitions. My proposal would be that multiclienting be permitted in the long run only to those who meet certain criteria. Exploiting multiclienting and the like tends to be fairly common and as of now there is little stopping people from doing it, but if later it was a capability or feature you could request access to or some such that would be ideal. Regardless i do not believe most people use multiclienting in a noble way, I do however believe that some do and can and that some PS can actually benefit from effective rp oriented multiclienting on the part of some of the more experienced players.
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Characters have to be played in world to level them up. I am unsure how you mean "and play to character at the same time to help the other one level."?
As Peacer said, it is pretty hard to follow and switch between two characters and two clients and you better be a fast typer and capable of keeping the two separate in your mind. It also drops the immersive enjoyment of the game because you are using windowed mode (at least I would have to do it that way).
I have two characters that I use in PS. One was created and played for about a month while the other was having a nervous breakdown. If I were to bring them both online at the same time in the manner we are speaking of, they would be separate characters each with individual and distinct experiences, skills, friends, goals and *alignments*. They speak differently. Heck, they even *type* differently. Arg, that would take a lot out of me though and my "Gaming Stamina" rating would drop twice as fast before I had to go lie down.
If we look at it from the server's viewpoint. They are ALL separate characters. Each character must build it's own progression points to train. So you cannot use one character to "level up" another. There are a few things that can be done with multiple clients, but each individual action has to be done by a single character at a single time.
Now people in game should avoid doing this because it does give a certain advantage to the players doing it, I agree with that. However, since you can only actually *play* one character at a time, even if one has two clients open ... AND the wipe is coming ... oh *please* the wipe already ... I hardly see what the fuss is about.
Crocronil: You would have to have the game detect IP or MAC address to do this, it has been discussed elsewhere and is *not* a good solution to the problem for a number of reasons. I think the solutions is for people to play the game and enjoy it. Who cares what other people are doing? Does any of this somehow detract from your experience? Only if you let it...
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But it shares the xp, right? So say if you have lots of weap chars, and attack high xp giving creatures, wont you get more xp?
You can do this with guildmates easily enough.
And that's what should happen, community ftw
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And that's what should happen, community ftw
Exactly. Better to roleplay with others rather than yourself. :whistling:
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Alts. The good thing about them is that you can spread the skills you want to experience as a player according to their own personalities. I have a warrior as my main character. It doesn't make sense for her to train in mining or crafting. She doesn't. I have other characters that I train in other fields my warrior wouldn't be interested in like magic or crafting. Nothing wrong with that. I think that having a character that is good at everything is not so good in RP terms. You can have that I guess, but I prefer to stay within the limits of what my character would do, despite the OOC advantages of having one character maxed in all available skills.
Now, multi-clienting... wish I could do that! And for RP reasons. But not to have all my characters talk to each other but to spice things up. I've seen some ppl with two clients on at the same time and RPing with themselves and to me that's just absurd. However, when you have the chance to do it and you use it well (not with yourself), it can be quite helpful. Yes, it can be abused (especially with miners) but I don't think it's too much of a problem.
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Alts.
alts != multi clienting,
as mentioned before alts are fine and alow you to experience differnt aspects of the wolrd.
i can really type quite welll for someone in my state cant i :p
god how i miss irc
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How are all alternative characters multicliented? My alternative characters are on the same account, therefore i cannot use them at the same time whether i run 1 or 100 clients.
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They have multiple accounts.
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A few points about the discouraged practice.
1. In a system with multiple desktops (linux for one) you can have a client open full screen on each desktop if you have the resources. Then all you have to do is switch desktops to change characters. There is some lag involved due to inactive windows not being updated.
2. There is enough time spent waiting for mining to process that you can easily keep two or three characters mining efficiently without missing a beat. More than two characters starts to have diminishing returns as you lose some time switching. Most people actively engaged in what they are doing (mining, fighting, etc.) don't have time to chat anyway and have to stop what they are doing if conversation breaks out.
3. One benefit that can be obtained from multi-clienting is that if you design your characters carefully you can have one character start with 10 mining, another with 10 blacksmithing and so on. It saves training time to use characters for what they are good for and not try to all be polymaths, this is medieval times not the Renaissance.
When I was playing two characters I role-played that the newer one was my apprentice. It got confused a bit with typing in the wrong window. I think indentured servitude might be a more realistic RP device than puppet-master but the practice is discouraged and that is good enough for me.
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For some, yes 'mAlts' (new word!) are hard to do, as they can be very confusing to switch between. For some, that is. There are other people that do this very well, and use their characters to fill gaps left empty by lack of 'mood' NPCs. I consider those to be NPCs that are there simply to be threre, rather than give out a quest.
As for using mAlts, you can do it on all but the worst computers. Setting the framerate down quite low, and distance to about what you can see across the plaza will do wonders. If you turn off the sound it will do more. Keep one window open at a time and minimize the others.
I have used three characters at once to entertain people in the bar. One was the barkeep, one was just having a drink at the bar and joking with the barkeep, and the last was drunk and laughing at everyone. There was no deep quest of evil event, just a fun night. Malts can and should be used for this. For leveling? What does it really matter to the rest of us? They are not getting all the good quests, as they are open to everyone. They are not taking all the good items, as anyone can buy anything. They are not even having fun, unless that type of thing is fun to them. You may cry that it is not fair, and they are getting ahead of everyone else, but that point is invalid. This is an RPG. There is not and end, it is not a race. No one can get ahead.
If you want it to be fair to everyone, you would have to wipe the game every Friday, and everyone start over. Now set your computer to run as slow as the worst system running the game. Make sure your sound is turn off. And, oh yes, you can only play as much as the person who has the least amount of time. That sounds more fair and fun, right?
In essence, stop worrying about what other people are doing, as long as it is not greaving you. NO one is 'getting ahead'. Is it against the principals of the game? Yes, but I see being forced to level as against it also. Is it against the principals of your character? No, your character does not know it exists. Play it that way. Multi-leveling will always be a minority, and not worth the time spent trying to stop it. Sure, you can cut out all multi, but you then limit all the good roleplayers who are just trying to make the world a little fuller, both in populous, and in life.
I will continue to use my malts, as I do not have a main character, and never will. And the next time you are in the bar and get a chuckle out of a kran making a joke at the menki bartender's expence, you may tip your hat to multi-clienting.
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I don't really see what the problem is in dual-boxing, as most of the world calls this practice. Are people worried that someone playing two characters is cheating?
What if someone was playing multiple games of chess at the same time with different people? How is that cheating at chess?
I have heard devs say we should discourage it, or even ban it, but I don't get why and I don't like how we're constantly looking for new rules to invent. My vote is laissez-faire...
- Venge
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I don't really see what the problem is in dual-boxing, as most of the world calls this practice. Are people worried that someone playing two characters is cheating?
What if someone was playing multiple games of chess at the same time with different people? How is that cheating at chess?
I have heard devs say we should discourage it, or even ban it, but I don't get why and I don't like how we're constantly looking for new rules to invent. My vote is laissez-faire...
- Venge
Chess is a different scenario. If you were playing two games of planeshift on different servers, that would be like playing two games of chess at once. If you had twice as many of your own pieces on the chess board as the opponent... that would be cheating.
Still, I dont necessarily think mAlting is cheating, depending on the situation- but there is some ethical issues with using one character to just get money or items for the other. I think the issue is when those two characters start interacting with each other and the same people- if they are completly seperate, then theres no problem- but they most likely wont be completly seperate.
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uhm...i have alts but when im moving items to my other character i drop them where i hope no one will pick them up and then sign on to my other char and get them to pick it up....thats alright right?
cause i dunnos if i want anyone to know who my other char is so i cant switch through someone else
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Chess is a different scenario. If you were playing two games of planeshift on different servers, that would be like playing two games of chess at once. If you had twice as many of your own pieces on the chess board as the opponent... that would be cheating.
Actually, if I were the opponent of said person, I wouldn't call them cheating, I'd call it a challenge to myself to try and win with a handicap.
I don't see why the whole gosh darn world has to be so negative at times. If the glass is half empty, have the waiter refill it.
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Kalika - in a guild, or with close friends, you often have a chance to ask for a trade with a man in the middle. Dropping is not really necessary to exchange items. If you can trust at least one more player. ;)
By dropping items, there is a higher risk that items get stolen, or vanish in a server reboot or longer unability to log in.
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For myself, I am happy to be able to run one client on my old system. And having alts is already challenging.
Multi-clienting (only possible with more powerful hardware anyway) would act out into business and stress. Not good for my style. ;)
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Actually, if I were the opponent of said person, I wouldn't call them cheating, I'd call it a challenge to myself to try and win with a handicap.
Its still cheating. And if you were playing against any decent player of chess with half the pieces they had, you'd lose every time.
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I Multi-client for 2 reasons...
1) Safe place to stash the extra loot I can't carry.
2) Useful for RPs when others don't wish to get involved.
I've found multi-clienting useful and would hope, that by not abusing it to gain advantage over others, and use it just to enhance RP like I and many others do... that this option won't be taken away!?!
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I can see what you mean about the trading between accounts, this may prove difficult if you have noone you can trust.
We need a bank/chest such as in guild wars :D
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I have participated in many wonderful RP's large and small where multiclienting was the tool that pushed the mystery over the edge. I know some folks who use it on a daily basis in such creative way as to enhance my and other experience. This is not cheating.
For those who would take advantage of mAlts/double boxing, you cannot legislate this and, as well, why should anyone care? You will go on in your PS life as you were and so there will be some rich folks hanging around who multicliented their way to the top but then what? What then do they do? Wait for the wipe? Let them be. Ignore them if you must but don't worry about it so much. If you're worried about them maxing stats too quickly, there are so many who are maxed and become maxed every day it doesnt matter. What matters is how you are with those around you - the character environment you create - that's what will last past the wipes.
Enjoy and don't worry.
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@ Xylaal:
There are many things that don't matter in the perspective of a coming wipe. But in the perspective of a coming persitent world a.k.a Planeshift, it's important to set clear from the start that the goal of PS is not to become the most powerful by any means uncluding using a mule alt to carry more than regular players. The goal of PS is not to frustrate anyone. So better state from the start what's right and what's wrong. More than a tech-demo of the client and server capabilities, this early releases are a demo of the hability of players to set the world alive. It's never too early to cure a bug not to prevent a "bugged player" from forging bad habits.
And not need to say that it's fine because the system allows it that mAlting -nice neologism BTW- is fine.
As I said a few posts ago, it's fine to use the system for what it's intended to; in extenso Roleplaying. And obviously everyone agreed that it could open imaginative possibilities. But when I read that a mAlt can be used to carry what doesn't fit in a main characters' inventory, I wonder why there is a limit for what you can carry implemented and what is the goal in life of this mule mAlt. A mule is just an inconsistent waste of bandwidth and database space that could be used for the roleplay. using it to RP once in a month when it's not busy carrying more, is just an excuse.
If you have some technical possibility and the needed skills to RP more than one char, do it. Otherwise it's just abusing the system possibilities.
And it's something we can care to see spreading in what will survive the next wipe and any other to come: the PS community of players. To let cheaters enjoy PS now don't have to be seen as a weakness of this community for any newcomer willing to join before the wipe.
Ignore them now and you'll have to deal with them later because they will be the community that enjoyed most the ignoring times. A purpose of wipes is to preserve the balance, and how to define the rules of PS economy and balancing of skills when all the stats ingame are insane due to the use of cheats?
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@ Hadfael
Wrong interpretation of the spirit of my post. I only mean to say;
1. Believe it - there ARE people using multiclienting in a beneficial way that enhances others gaming experience..I've RP 'ed with them many times. This exsists. It's fun... :)
2.I NEVER said I condoned any of the powerleveling or any of the other activities that give unfair advantage through multiclienting - I dont condone it. I just dont feel that there's much we as players can do about it. If you wish to "prevent a bugged player from forging bad habits" I believe that is your job not the job of the player. If you wish to do that then set down a rule. Otherwise why worry.
- if on the other hand you wish the community to police this some way - I think that is vertually impossible from our end.
3. In writing my post I was mostly trying to ease the outrage of some, by presenting a viewpoint that leaves all the "setting it clear from the start" (as you wrote) and future decisions in this matter in YOUR and the devs capable hands, as we know it is your responsibility to set those parameters (i.e. if you want to legislate it...it's up to you and we shall abide when it comes down but til then; players, I, need not worry my head about that ;)). I wrote this in my post to calm...not to incite. To just simply say (as I wrote) enjoy the game.
4.Right now, (correct me if I'm wrong) I dont think we are hearing one unified voice on this from devs and GMs etc...so, discussion is very good here, just dont aim this all at me please.
5.If the goal of PS is not to frustrate anyone then why, if you wish to discourage fighting and encourage RP, is the only way to advance your PP by killing? Yes this will change later I've read but...like I said, so will many things.
6. "Ignoring them". Hmmm. How can I say this nicely. It is YOU folks who make the rules. If there is no rule, Hadfael, and you do not wish to frustrate your players when they see someone multiclienting incorrectly (like mutli-mining), then I say to them (as I did in my post)...ignore it for your own guts sake..so you dont feel so bad. What else would you have us do?
7. I have always read that this is not a test...that we are playing THE game and that it will always be a work in progress...I like that concept. It makes things exciting. And wipes are wipes. So are you telling me in your reply that you disagree that the character enviroment, circle of friends and personality that the player makes for the character is the important thing [as it will survive a wipe and material things wont] ? I believe it is very important. I think you do too.
It sounds like you are attacking me for posting a philosophy that espouses a live and let live attitude toward PS, that's fine. But don't put words into my mouth.
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I would like to supliment point 5."If the goal of PS is not to frustrate anyone then why, if you wish to discourage fighting and encourage RP, is the only way to advance your PP by killing? Yes this will change later I've read but...like I said, so will many things." with this thread: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=25763.0
I, personaly, find leveling to be more frustrating than someone 'cheating' to 'get ahead' with more than one character.. I am known as a devoted roleplayer. If I wished to make a higher level character to RP with, and could use mAlts to do it, would I? Damn straight. Then I would pretend that my character never leveled in the first place, but learned those skills in life long before I ever even thought of him. If I wanted to RP a character that was rich, yet weak in all skills (Arnigus, for those that know him) would I use mAlts to make money to support his RP, or even glitches in the game to makey that money? Again, yes. The problem is not cheating, it is that some people -have- to cheat to create the character they wish to play.
Too many things focus on what other people are doing, while ignoring what is "frustrating" to the individual player. Like I have stated before, why worry about this? Your character does not see botting. Your character does not see mAlts as one person. Your character sees someone doing this as two people. If they do not respond to you? So what? Not everyone will talk to you in real life either. You can not compare this chess. Chess has a purpose, an end, and a winner. PS has none of these things. You make your own purpose, and there never will be an end or winner. For those that do cheat to get to the 'end' of the game, or maxing all their stats and getting all the cooll l33t stuff, as they see it, let them. The sooner they get done, the sooner they can move on to another game.
The only thing I see as cheating is being able to affect another character directly, such as killing, robbing, or blocking of quests. Greaving, in other words.
Let me point out that I do not level up my characters, nor do I go after loot. Even if I did, this 'cheating' would still not affect me one bit. My character would see someone hard at work at what they were doing, then move on. End of story.
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@everyone:
This thread is more a general reflexion about how *we the players* (even since I became GM, I still consider me as one) can use multiple clients. It's something everyone of us has to think about when running a client. Before defining rules that GMs will have to enforce, I think it's better to explain everyone why they should not abuse of mAlt. In the same time, considering how mAlts can increase an imaginative RP (on that we all agree), it's important to tell possible cheaters why it's made possible and why some uses should not be made of them.
It's the responsability of GMs to enforce rules, but it's players responsability to avoid breaking them.
1. Use multiple clients if you can to improve your RPing fun and the on of pple you interract with.
2. As a player, don't focus on powerleveling since there is little for you to earn in the perspective of your future life in the PS world.
3. don't wait for others (devs, gms, game mechanics) to tell you what's right and what's wrong.
4. (this was not personal, sorry again if it seemed so)
5. advance your character by his history, relationships, actions, knowledge of the world and its inhabitants (NPCs *and* players).
6. report to GMs abuses you witness and ignore them IC
7. the PS world (created by your RP) and your place in its population are not going to be wiped. Only stats and wealth are.
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@Xylaal:
It's my mistake if my post sounded personaly directed against you. Look at my posts count and you'll see that I am not good at posting :)
I am glad there are many players like you who agrees with me. I was just unable to separate my advices, to every one tempted by using mAlts against possible abuses, from my reply to you. But in fact, at least the two of us are agreeing on the essential (we should form a sect ;) ). Don't hesitate to contact me ingame so I can apologise and clarify myself.
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Thanks Hadfael. :flowers: I understand what you are saying about the way you post. It's all good.
Discussions like this can only make the game better.
UTM, that link is good. A lot of meat in that thread.