PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: bilbous on October 06, 2006, 08:18:46 am
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How is it good RP to editorialise you thoughts and conclusions. For example made up out of whole cloth if I were to say /me smells Abominogs breath, gags and wonders if he had been eating consumers again and concludes that whatever he had eaten it was best to stand a little further away. This is very descriptive and all but what I wonder is not something that should be related in this manner, it has to be vocalised if it is to be shared with the participants at all and the conclusion should be expressed as an action needing no further comment. Yet I see this consistantly from those who seem most intent on Role Playing.
Collaborative writing is not role play and motivational asides seem out of context. If you are going to insist on introductions don't project your thoughts into my head. It may make things a little more difficult but if you want realism then Get Real!
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A lot of the threads that are popping up lately are good discussions, suggestions, and "tutorials" for a Role-Play Guide. In fact I have a WIP guide stickied here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24025.0) just for such a purpose. If you have suggestions of what to do or not to do, post them there instead of starting a new thread in the future.
I'm going to start merging things from now on.
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Ok I'll try to do so. It seems to me that new threads (subject line could have been better) have more visibility then stickied archives. It might be a good idea to allow the threads to exist until they fall off the front page so that everyone gets a chance to view a fresh comment. I took your advice and added a post with a different suggestion to your stickied thread. I'm not sure it will be seen by those to whom it was directed.
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All in all, you have a good point there. The /me command isn't used in a realistic way if you express what your character thinks. People around you don't know that and shouldn't be able to find that out by "looking" at one of your actions.
Related to this, I would like to point out a small "issue" with character descriptions. Most players have descriptions that include parents' names, bacground history, hobies, stats, etc. That doesn't seem right since the description of your character should reflect your character's look, clothing, way of speaking, movement, etc. People should see only your "visual" features when looking at you, they can't know your mother's name or the fact that in the past, you saved a kid from drowning. A bit odd is that the system will add such things to a character's description right after creation, but considering the "under development" status of the game, things are susceptible to changes.
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I actually disagree with the claim that using descriptive editorials ruins role play. To be honest, I don't think the purpose of RP is absolute realism, but rather something closer to similarity of realism. Instead of seeing these descriptive editorials as providing unrealistic information to the other player you're RPing with, I think they function in two ways.
1) They provide a certain mood or context of personality/attitude of the character, allowing the other player to get a sense of what the character is thinking/feeling and therefore can choose to interact accordingly.
2) They offer a little bit of narrative play. Since RP is similar to creating stories, when we role play with someone else, we're trying to not just engage their character, but the player. Small side notes to RPs, I think, provide amusing and engaging incentives for players to engage with another character.
Therefore, statements such as: /me smells Abominogs breath, gags and wonders if he had been eating consumers again and concludes that whatever he had eaten it was best to stand a little further away, set a certain mood for the character (namely, a slightly comic mood that simply gagging and stepping away might not provide) and offers some amusing comic relief for the player, who either might choose to ignore or play along with the joke.
What is harmless about these editorials is that since they are asides, the other player can choose whether or not to acknowledge the added details and act accordingly in the RP. That player can decide to ignore the consumer breath suggestion, or play along with it
e.g. /me burps and then blushes awkwardly, mumbling something about eating some meat that didn't agree with her
or /me looks slightly offended at the stranger who stepped away from her, after having discreetly checked her breath and finding nothing wrong with it.
or if you want to ignore it... /me seems not to notice the strangers reaction
In all honesty, if you find these kind of asides frustrating, I think the best thing to do would be ignore it. Chastizing players for using them I think implies a certain amount of bad faith (i.e. assumes that the other player is using the editorials to ruin the RP rather than make genuine attempts to engage). They are easy to ignore since they don't actually change the course of the RP unless the player chooses to integrate it further.
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There was no mention about frustration, anoyance or any other feelings regarding anything that has been discussed here. It is only a debate about the realism of certain actions/features. As you said, we have to take our RP as close to realism as we can. And these ideeas mentioned above tend to lead towards that ;)
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The way I see it, if you're "emoted" at like this, simply react to that which should be obvious to your character and ignore any omniscient info (which is mainly there for the players to understand the behaviour but not for the characters to really know). Not the thoughts or "wonders if..." parts but the "gags... it was better to sand a little further away" parts which are visible or perceivable. RP is not only about what you say but mostly how you react to that which happens around you. I have had some great RP through /me and /my only and it was all frustration free.
Now, a warning: emote when you need to, not because you can. It can get annoying when someone suddenly drops a 10 line emote which is totally uncalled for. I see this happening when some players want to get the attention of a crowd nearby but it feels more like an imposition. Edit it a bit, emote little by little and if you get a response (as in "What? Are you alright?" or "/me turns to <name>") which indicates that crowd shows interest in your actions, then keep going. Otherwise it feels like spam (it's not but it feels like it). Of course, for this to work well you should also try to emote things that are indeed perceivable:
"/me can't stop bleeding and the world around him can't stop spinning, his weak body soon to be lifeless..."
Yeah, right. You're sitting in the corner of the bar, nobody's around. You'll die alone. Unless your blood drops really, really, really loudly nobody has anything to react to here. Save that line for when people notice you're there and approach you. How can you get attention: make a noise. "Uggh... help...", should do it or, if you are an action person "/me stumbles around trying to find a place to lie down. He bumps into the table and the bottle on it falls and breaks. Shattered glass and cheap ale on the floor..." (though I would stick with the "ugh, help" one).
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Keeping with the same example:
For example made up out of whole cloth if I were to say /me smells Abominogs breath, gags and wonders if he had been eating consumers again and concludes that whatever he had eaten it was best to stand a little further away.
First, one small side note: Unless poor Abominogs has already hinted to his foul breath (ie. /me says "Hi, everyone", with the stench of his foul breath filling the area), this is imposing the bad breath on him. This is slightly unfair since our friend Abominogs may have excellent, mint-scented breath. :D But, I don't think that is what this discussion is about.
The problem that I see is a lack of visual or audio cues that other characters can actually notice. No character will see or hear 'smelling' and 'concluding'. All they will notice is the gagging which could just as easily be caused by Harnquist's silent flatulence as much as Abominog's breath. (Perhaps there is very little difference between the two. ;D ). This example could also be done like this:
*/me sniffs and wrinkles his nose. (visual cues of the smelling)
*/me gags and says "Abominogs, have you been eating consumers again?"
*/me takes a few steps away from Abominogs. (followed by physically moving a few steps away)
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I actually disagree with the claim that using descriptive editorials ruins role play. To be honest, I don't think the purpose of RP is absolute realism, but rather something closer to similarity of realism. Instead of seeing these descriptive editorials as providing unrealistic information to the other player you're RPing with, I think they function in two ways.
(snip)
In all honesty, if you find these kind of asides frustrating, I think the best thing to do would be ignore it. Chastizing players for using them I think implies a certain amount of bad faith (i.e. assumes that the other player is using the editorials to ruin the RP rather than make genuine attempts to engage). They are easy to ignore since they don't actually change the course of the RP unless the player chooses to integrate it further.
First I did not say they ruin RP I said they were not RP. I was trying to say that instead of taking the easy way out and telling people what you think find some way of indicating it without spelling it out. If you want to take the easy way out the please feel free to assume that I have my name tattooed on my forehead. I am unlikely to ever say "My name is bilbous, please note that it is uncapitalized." And don't say "talking to the kran in the chainmail" It is perfectly correct to use my name in an action preface such as /me turns to bilbous "hi guy how's it going" Your character does not need to know my name in order for you to use it in descriptive narratives. Play at not knowing my name if you like but don't make it hard for me to know that you are talking to me ... for all I know there may be some other kran in chainmail standing behind me.
As far as chastising players go I said nothing in game and came and made this thread. I mostly don't comment about such things in game although if someone goes [OOC] to challenge me on something I will say something [OOC] in return. I do on occaision have [OOC] conversations but try to keep them syntactically correct by indicating with []. This brings up an idea that just occured to me. Perhaps a filter could be implimented such that a player could click a radio button in chat options and never see any chat within [] again. It should not be too hard to add but I don't know what the code looks like so I may be wrong. Then all we need to do is to educate players to always use [] for OOC.
Also please note my contribution to the WIP thread about knowing what words mean.
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"/me smells Abominogs breath, gags and wonders if he had been eating consumers again and concludes that whatever he had eaten it was best to stand a little further away"
NO NO NO
I try very hard not to be an rp cop but this confounds me me-
I agree with einnol about the imposition, and this extendes also to /me strikes x player.
IF Abominogs had bad breath indicated in his description or had meantioned it, the responding player would be better off say something like this"
/me smells Abominogs breath, gags and appears to ponder what the smell's source was, after a moment of contemplation [insert player's name] shrugs and moves little further away.
if it is the case that emotes can be used to set a tone, this can be accomplished without unwitting players nearby being able to read the mind of the character emoting.
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If I may quibble with this just a bit
IF Abominogs had bad breath indicated in his description or had meantioned it, the responding player would be better off say something like this"
/me smells Abominogs breath, gags and appears to ponder what the smell's source was, after a moment of contemplation [insert player's name] shrugs and moves little further away.
I think that
...smells Abominogs breath, something foul gags and appears to ponder what the smell's source was, focuses her gaze on Abominog, after a moment of contemplation [insert player's name]shrugs and moves little further away.
[character actually moves away a few steps, no need to say what can be plainly seen]
might be a bit better. That is just my opinion of course. The bit about focusing her gaze is justified because there is no capacity to operate the eyes in such a manner as to indicate what you are looking at.
While I am at picking apart roleplay it seems to me that any camera view other than through the eyes is contrary to good Role Play because that is the only viewpoint a character would have.
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I accept those alterations, but the principles of what i said still stand and your corrections reflect this. No need to worry about "quibbling" roleplaying is a subtle art, a fact lost on many. What is funny is that most of us reading this thread are already fairly well developed and using this conversation to enhance our rp, while those who need most to read these things are shouting hello to friends who just logged on. ;)
I love our game and everyone dedicated enough to try to work out these little kinks, I commend you bilbous for bringing the issue up as it was something that bothered me as well.
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I agree that internal dialogues in open chat are completely inappropriate.
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If I may quibble with this just a bit
While I am at picking apart roleplay it seems to me that any camera view other than through the eyes is contrary to good Role Play because that is the only viewpoint a character would have.
Yes but what what your character hears is just as important... such as unseen foot steps, that otherwise couldnt be RPed in first person
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Indeed, I used the term quibbling because we were largely in agreement.
By the way, I am almost tempted to use the name Abominog as it strikes me as esthetically pleasing. However it is the title of a Uriah Heep recording I know little about but whose name has stuck with me for years. As such, it is, strictly speaking, an out of context name.
Audio cues are problematic as game mechanics are unlikely to provide the depth of possibilities on real life. Personally I never have sound on in games of anykind unless it is completely integral to gameplay. Such things are suitable to RP interventions just so long as you don't go to ridiculous lengths such as /me hearing a leaf fall in the woods registers Silent Sams presence, "Hello Sam."
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Let us not forget that it isn't harmful by any stretch of the imagination to type ....
/me sits on the ground and plays with her tail while watching her friends engage in an important conversation.
That still keeps you apart of the roleplay and adds visual, for those of use who like that sort of thing. So ....
/me smells a foul like smell coming from Abominogs way and steps a few feet back "Abominogs, what have you eaten today?"
This lets everyone know where you are coming from and what you are trying to roleplay so that others can join in and it then doesn't seem like we can all mind read. The Abominogs character then has a window of opportunity to change where the roleplay is going if he/she doesn't like it and do something like .....
Abominogs smirks and then lifts up a bag of rotten fish he found laying by the river "It isn't me! I picked this bag up by the river and planned on throwing it out before it attracted some harmful wild life to the water front."
/me laughs "I find it hard to believe that smell would attract anything."
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it seems that this is a common trait for people who just started rp'ing... I did it too after realising myself that other people actually couldn't respond to /me thinks that someone is looking ugly because...... i would strongly not recommend this as it gives no chance to the other person to respond as it isn't in any way physical.
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I don't think it is bad to do it. What is wrong is to respond to that. You know that your character has no natural way to learn what a /me thinks/feels/wonders emote would describe. You can do it to give the other players a clue of what your intentions may be or just to be funny, so as long as the others around the character emoting something like this react in a logical way there shouldn't be no problems. After all, we do think/feel/wonder stuff while having conversations IRL, the difference is that nobody knows about them (so the characters shouldn't reply as if they did). Now, considering the number of players who would call you by your name even if they never met you before just because of the "it's hanging above your head" logic I guess this "non omniscient" RP is harder to do...
Let's just hope for the common sense to be more common...
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I have actaully thoult of this a few times when I have use somthing like that. It made me think how could they know what I was thinking. Actaully it has gotten to a point where it actaully irritates me when I do that. Sure it can be more informative of what your charecter is really doing ... but, even in RL somone could step to the side and give an odd look but you still don't know the reason ... so in my oppinion RPing the correct way would actaully can that whole "/me thinks" thing. I m sure if you can handle not knowing what somone is thinking in RL then I am absolutly sure you can handle it in RP. Also in my oppinion .. not nkowing why somone say rolls there eyes kind of gives you a better sense of realism and actaully can add to personality of charecters. For example ...
Incorrect
/me rolls eyes thinking of somthing silly
Response (Incorrect)
/me wonders what tssthorn is thinking
Correct
/me rolls eyes
Response
* N/A's eyes widen "Why are you rolling your eyes at me!!"
But you see what I mean? It will allow other to think of possibly why that person did what he or she did instead of just knowing. I think that most deffently give a sense of more realism.
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Ok, as I play a mute Bolia, I have to deal with nothing but emotes when in her shoes. I have never once said what was in her head, yet people always seem to know exactly what she is thinking. Understanding her signs is another thing entirely. ;)
I use "as if" and "seems" quite often, as that leaves the mood open for interpretation. "Is" is also not the best of responses for mood, as people will not know exactly how your character is feeling.
Aeshion is happy.
Aeshion looks happy.
There is a huge difference to those two statements. One is peeking directly into her mind, while the other is surface only. Let me expand on why.
Aeshion is happy. End of story. people know that you are happy, but have not really been drawn in.
Aeshion looks happy (but is really rather down because she has yet to find any flowers in the hills, but she does not wish to upset the mood, so puts on her smile)
Everything in () is what you know, but can't be seen at first glance. Now, if you want others to ask you about it...
Aeshion looks happy, but you may notice that her smile slips every time her eyes drift to the door, perhaps gazing out at the distant hills.
That tells players that you are interested in talking about what is bothering you character, but does not give awy too much. In real life, you can indeed tell when someone is looking off into the distance, and see small changes in her face. Now, some folks in the room may not have seen this. "you may notice" lets players decide for themselves what their character may see. "Perhaps" gives them some thought on what you are thinking, but not what it is. The entire statement is only what can bee seen by other's eyes, yet gives the same mood as the other example. It also engagues other players more, and draw them into you roleplay, as they, as the player, start to wonder what might be up. Telling them right out detracks from that, and takes out any mystery in the situation. Let's take the first again, and see about a response.
Aeshion looks happy but is really rather down because she has yet to find any flowers in the hills, but she does not wish to upset the mood, so puts on her smile.
That is actually hard to respond to, as you already know what is bothering her. You can ask "Aeshion, what is bothering you?" to which she would respond in handspeak (if you know it) "I hoped you would not notice. I have yet to find any flowers in the hills, and it is making me sad." That is very redundant and hard to make into a conversation. The bad breath smell is the same. No one is going to ask what you smell if you already told them 'mentally'.
So, in this way 'self' messages do detract from RP, as it predetermines the conversation to an extent, and robs the other players of that 'wondering' moment. It is that wondering that I use constantly to draw people into my roleplaying and make them interested. Call it a small form of manipulation, but it works very well. Ask anybody who has met Aeshion. ;)
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I have to say I agree with the sentiment that the thoughts of characters should not be expressed in /me.
Last time I checked (which was admittedly long ago,) Planeshift was not a Shakespearean play in which characters utter asides. :)
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I have to say I agree with the sentiment that the thoughts of characters should not be expressed in /me.
Last time I checked (which was admittedly long ago,) Planeshift was not a Shakespearean play in which characters utter asides. :)
Though unfortunately, today's gamers are more influenced by Yugio than Shakespeare...
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I disagree. If that were true, rather than RPing fights, everyone would RP playing card games against their enemies.
"I'm going to destroy the world with my surprisingly ineffectual powers!"
"Not if I lay this card in defense mode, you won't!"
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I disagree. If that were true, rather than RPing fights, everyone would RP playing card games against their enemies.
"I'm going to destroy the world with my surprisingly ineffectual powers!"
"Not if I lay this card in defense mode, you won't!"
I meant more in terms of internal dialogues. It seems like a lot of anime shows have a dumb amount of internal dialogue. It wouldn't be so bad if these characters actually had something to say.
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Actually, upon reconsideration, I have concluded that asides are OK.
...as long as they're in iambic pentameter. :D
I can second on the large amonts of trivial internal dialogue. Honestly, it'd be nice if a lot of anime shows had non-trivial dialogue period. (Standalone Complex forever!) When one thinks about it, a large amount of the players which visit PS come from a subculture bombarded by exaggerated (or inappropriate) images of how to act. They may go about thinking out loud in their real lives, too. They are simply used to it, so it is probably best just to politely inform them that this behavior is bad RP.
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Indeed I second the OP, and I've seen this thing constantly right from the beginning. However, this is something that I don't consider to be as harmful as many other things, and actually I'm quite happy if someone manages to RP well enough so that this is their only flaw. I always ignore these things from an IC PoV, since if my char were trying to read someone else's mind, I'd first /me (if appropriate), then add an OOC explanation and clarification (possibly in /tell) and ask for the results. However, I see that there sometimes may be some use for it, like when a player feels not sufficiently able to formulate sufficiently well to avoid misinterpretations, and it would otherwise have to be said as OOC. Thus, I wouldn't generally flag it as bad RP, just as "use with caution".
This applies to ingame, where it is easy to ask for details, clarify misunderstandings, etc., in short: to interact. When I post in an RP section, then I use curly brackets to designate internal dialogue if I consider it necessary for a significant number of readers to understand why my char is acting that way, because it is completely impractical to ask, inform or clarify in a post, especially if it gets read a year after it was posted. This often goes along with some describing of actions. In fact, I expect the other characters in the thread to not know any of it: it's solely for the readers.
Ingame, I've recently "tested" the value of internal dialogue in cases like "/me ponders whether (whatever)", but have found it to not be of benefit, not even to myself.
This topic is closely related to general noticing: Often it occurs that a player /me's things like squinting or something like this. I have come to realise that indeed the intention most often is to draw attention to this fact, and that there rarely is a case where those interacting with that character do not notice it, even if it is really minor, or pretty unspectacular. Thus I have decided to notice most of the time, and if I don't see reason that my char would notice, not expressly give a "/me doesn't notice <whatever>" as a sompromise to avoid OOC confusion.
My view and use of /me-ing is to try to describe as good as possible what happens, which may easily include things of lesser significance, stated only to add to the atmosphere, more for the other player's benefit than the other char's. I don't /me completely irrelevant things, though.
Also, I'd like to use this opportunity to clarify something that I've seen commented on on some other thread: there are times where I /say a mere "...". This isn't spamming the chat box, it is significant: it means that my char is still closely following the conversation at hand, but decidedly not speaking (in contrast to me being AFK or merely busy) without clogging the chatbox. This seems more pleasant than repeating "/me remains silent" all the time.
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Also, I'd like to use this opportunity to clarify something that I've seen commented on on some other thread: there are times where I /say a mere "...". This isn't spamming the chat box, it is significant: it means that my char is still closely following the conversation at hand, but decidedly not speaking (in contrast to me being AFK or merely busy) without clogging the chatbox. This seems more pleasant than repeating "/me remains silent" all the time.
You could just grunt ... "uh huh", "sure", "ah" and etc. To each their own I suppose.