PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gharan on October 10, 2006, 05:26:40 am
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[if this is the wrong place please move to the appropriate place thankyou]
I thought it might be fun if we all shot up our current duel points to see who has the most [daft i know but im intrigued]
Im currently standing at 71.59
[my moneys on unar]
gharin mumbles still cant kill her
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Im at -61, beat that.
I think its a pretty silly thing to compare, since its so easily abused, and contrary to the point of the game.
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+95.something. I've lost 10, 10, and 12 due to bugs, so it only says I have 63. I haven't done much duelling in almost half a year though.
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could have had 800 because dp doesn't mean much to me... reasons: killed by laanx when i was a noob, and unsticked in matches agaisnt training dummies <.< (lost 127 on one of them)
killed unar a lot of times gharan :P... however i think there are probably some with more duelpoints than me, i don't duel much
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im in the minus hundreds because of my red way prtoblem every time i duel and loss i loose 50 dp :(
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He! -124, cause of exessive tournament testing, I lost only 2 fair duels though.
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I have 410 duel points.
-Drahlian
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0.0 - Ithorius (never dueled)
-36.00 - Saracen (blame laanx for that)
8.31 - Rethius (fair duels.... used to have more before proglin started hunting me that one time ^^)
-1.00 - Holdan (died from kaapio, after he hired unar to kill kaapio...)
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I dont do much dueling, but like, -14 or something? :P
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Oh please. Mitaki's at 421.
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I completely second ramlambmoo. DP are pointless and diametrally opposed to the spirit of PS. I know that they are supposed to some day have a place and a meaning, but until that day, I think they should be taken out. Failing that, they should at least vanish from sight completely.
How about you start comparing something more PS-y for a change? Like your ratio of IC vs. OOC?
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We do it because it shows a duel history. Some of us are warriors, and like to compete with eachother. Even if they have no meaning to you, they mean a lot to us.
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We do it because it shows a duel history. Some of us are warriors, and like to compete with eachother. Even if they have no meaning to you, they mean a lot to us.
I'm more inclined to believe that they are not so much duelling history, but numbers. Numbers that can be increased. And we all know how much appeal increasable numbers have on players.
The DP measure how much you have duelled, sure. They even measure what the approximate relation, as percieved by the system (probably by merely comparing the amount of PP each char ever gained), of the duellers was. Great. But I don't see your chars compete against eachother, I see you players compete against each other. DP are PS's idea of "lvl" in "Wutz Ur lvl?".
If your characters are warriors, then why do they bother calculating some abstract number, thereby obliterating any and all individual cases of fight? Wouldn't they be more likely to brag about how they managed to defeat X, even though X had been defeating Y with ease just days before? Wouldn't the respect gained from the canny and memorable fight make the word spread? Wouldn't they rank only by tournaments, not by training fights?
I guess no, because within the fighting system, there cannot be any canny and memorable fight, not even with hit&run. I guess that there's so unrealistically much fighting going on that no single fight gets remembered at all. In fact, there are so many fights that the individual fighters become insignificant, and the only thing that remains is some statistic. A statistic that ultimately doesn't refer to a character, but to a player, as was the purpose all along.
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What are you going on about? >.>
The points are there so we can OOCly compare with eachother and see who has a better duel average. That's OOC though, O-O-C. Anyone who roleplays their wins and losses, like I do sometimes, might say in the tavern or when challenging someone "I've had 39 wins and 1 loss" or something like that. Your character keeps a personal score, while OOCly you keep a point score. Sure, the points don't do anything, but they're fun for comparing like we are in this thread.
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What are you going on about? >.>
Precisely about what you say:
The points are there so we can OOCly compare with eachother and see who has a better duel average. That's OOC though, O-O-C. Anyone who roleplays their wins and losses, like I do sometimes, might say in the tavern or when challenging someone "I've had 39 wins and 1 loss" or something like that. Your character keeps a personal score, while OOCly you keep a point score. Sure, the points don't do anything, but they're fun for comparing like we are in this thread.
It's OOC. Therefore, it's justification in PS is void. I was expecting tries to justify them as IC, thus I tried to preempt the possible argument about that.
The OOC-ness alone warrants removal from the game interface, and the fact that they measure how well you worked the system is exactly what I said: "lvl", and I believe that a great deal of all duelling in PS is done not for RP reasons, but to increase that "lvl". And since PS isn't supposed to be a MULARP, as is being stated repeatedly by players, GMs and devs alike, it is as opposed to PS's goal as it can be, which warrants completely extinguishing them forever. I think, in PS, one should compete by the quality of one's RP instead.
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Seytra has some good points actually, but suno reign has some good ones too, although... i don't care much about them as said before... If the track of losses and wins is what he measures why not just give one duel point per win and remove one per loss?
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Sooooo, why not simply replace DP with something more meaning ful as in a Win-Loss-Draw field? No matter if its simply one number going up or down or many, a single number doesn't represent anything along the lines of dueling experience. I have two test characters that each have about 0 DP (one a little above, one a little below), but each of them has dueled the other at least a good 100-200 times, while I tested various game features and strategies. I simply had them alternate which one would win each time. A person that only has dueled a fourth of that can have a way higher number than 0, but has that person really gotten more experience in dueling in? No. So a single number does not give any indication of dueling experience. Only a Win-Loss-Draw area that shows wins in one column, losses in another, and draws in a third is the only meaningful way of showing Dueling Experience.
This way is also much better for IC explanations (again, just a single number really has no IC explanation and is purely OOC) as you can say that the character has been keeping a talley of his/her duels and how many they have won/lost/drawn.
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but each of them has dueled the other at least a good 100-200 times, while I tested various game features and strategies. I simply had them alternate which one would win each time. A person that only has dueled a fourth of that can have a way higher number than 0, but has that person really gotten more experience in dueling in?
Is it really a duel if you are working both combattants and arbitrarily deciding which will win? How do you manage to work both controls at the same time? This just points out the meaninglessness of the stats.
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My point was, just becuase one person may only have very little points, while another has a few hundred, that doesn't mean that the person with a few hundred duel points actually has more dueling experience. Even if 2 different people were controlling the two characters in my given example, my point is stil valid.
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What if PlayerA has more DPs than PlayerB?
What does it prove?
Was PlayerA victorious against a few stong oponents?
Was PlayerA a n00bslayer?
Can we say that PlayerB defeated more even if he fought more successful battles?
No, it's proving nothing.
And a count of victories/loss would also be meaningless without reflecting the strength of the oponents.
DPs in general are meaningless, so better ignore them and wish they will be hidden/disabled.
Warriors can still compare their strengh in the number of Ulbers, rats, foes, they defeated. And by the fear their reputation inspires to the ones standing against them, good or bad.
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Duel points are set up so that if a weaker player defeats a stronger player, then will get >1 duel point. If a stronger character defeats a weaker one, they will get <1 duel point. In my dueling experience, I've gained as many as 4 duel points by killing a far stronger opponent, and gained as little as .1 duel points for killing a far weaker player after I became strong. One time I lost 16 duel points at once, when a noobie challenged me without a word, then ran away. I accepted and went to find him, but ended up hitting Unstick, which of course also yields, losing me 16 dp (and gaining him 16, I'm sure).
I've seen some inconsistencies, though. One time I started a brand new character, and a friend did the same. Neither character had trained anything, but for some reason, I only earned about .5 dp for a win, and lost 2 dp for a loss. I suspect that dp value is based on relative training, not stats. My character must have started the game with higher skills, and his character with higher stats.
On the one hand, I think duel points are an interesting and somewhat effective measure of dueling success. However, it can easily be abused. I earned all my dp fairly, mostly by dueling hundreds of times in the DR with friends, and with all the battling in the Dwarvesbane/Dwarven Star war. However, someone could create a new, weak character, and have it kill their strong character over and over, and they'd rack up lots of DP quickly. Of course their strong character would lose DP just as fast as their weak one gained them, but my point is that they can be abuse dishonorably (just like many other aspects to PS).
-Drahlian
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What are you going on about? >.>
Precisely about what you say:
The points are there so we can OOCly compare with eachother and see who has a better duel average. That's OOC though, O-O-C. Anyone who roleplays their wins and losses, like I do sometimes, might say in the tavern or when challenging someone "I've had 39 wins and 1 loss" or something like that. Your character keeps a personal score, while OOCly you keep a point score. Sure, the points don't do anything, but they're fun for comparing like we are in this thread.
It's OOC. Therefore, it's justification in PS is void. I was expecting tries to justify them as IC, thus I tried to preempt the possible argument about that.
The OOC-ness alone warrants removal from the game interface, and the fact that they measure how well you worked the system is exactly what I said: "lvl", and I believe that a great deal of all duelling in PS is done not for RP reasons, but to increase that "lvl". And since PS isn't supposed to be a MULARP, as is being stated repeatedly by players, GMs and devs alike, it is as opposed to PS's goal as it can be, which warrants completely extinguishing them forever. I think, in PS, one should compete by the quality of one's RP instead.
There is always someone to complain about everything why doesnt everyone one just get on with it and if you dont like whats happening dont post in the thread simple as
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There is always someone to complain about everything why doesnt everyone one just get on with it and if you dont like whats happening dont post in the thread simple as
That is not an option, because doing so could be seen as implicitely condoning, which is definitely not the case. AMOF, I think noone should refrain from posting when they don't agree, because this sort of behaviour frequently leads to "silent majority" problems.
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Duel points are set up so that if a weaker player defeats a stronger player, then will get >1 duel point. If a stronger character defeats a weaker one, they will get <1 duel point. In my dueling experience, I've gained as many as 4 duel points by killing a far stronger opponent, and gained as little as .1 duel points for killing a far weaker player after I became strong. One time I lost 16 duel points at once, when a noobie challenged me without a word, then ran away. I accepted and went to find him, but ended up hitting Unstick, which of course also yields, losing me 16 dp (and gaining him 16, I'm sure).
I've seen some inconsistencies, though. One time I started a brand new character, and a friend did the same. Neither character had trained anything, but for some reason, I only earned about .5 dp for a win, and lost 2 dp for a loss. I suspect that dp value is based on relative training, not stats. My character must have started the game with higher skills, and his character with higher stats.
On the one hand, I think duel points are an interesting and somewhat effective measure of dueling success. However, it can easily be abused. I earned all my dp fairly, mostly by dueling hundreds of times in the DR with friends, and with all the battling in the Dwarvesbane/Dwarven Star war. However, someone could create a new, weak character, and have it kill their strong character over and over, and they'd rack up lots of DP quickly. Of course their strong character would lose DP just as fast as their weak one gained them, but my point is that they can be abuse dishonorably (just like many other aspects to PS).
-Drahlian
I've killed a newbie who didin't know how to type /die or /unstick :p but he could easily click yes... gave me 0.00 dp's
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Duel points are set up so that if a weaker player defeats a stronger player, then will get >1 duel point. If a stronger character defeats a weaker one, they will get <1 duel point. In my dueling experience, I've gained as many as 4 duel points by killing a far stronger opponent, and gained as little as .1 duel points for killing a far weaker player after I became strong. One time I lost 16 duel points at once, when a noobie challenged me without a word, then ran away. I accepted and went to find him, but ended up hitting Unstick, which of course also yields, losing me 16 dp (and gaining him 16, I'm sure).
I've seen some inconsistencies, though. One time I started a brand new character, and a friend did the same. Neither character had trained anything, but for some reason, I only earned about .5 dp for a win, and lost 2 dp for a loss. I suspect that dp value is based on relative training, not stats. My character must have started the game with higher skills, and his character with higher stats.
-Drahlian
I believe the more ranks in all your skills you have, the stronger you are considered by the system. So if you have 10 ranks in 10 various skills like mining, you have 100 points in total and you are considered stronger than a guy with 25 rank sword and light armor. While the opposite is true. But i rather want to see other features, rather than DP fixed, coz IMHO they arent worth any work ;P
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I think the DP system only counts ranks obtained in certain skills instead of them all (I'm pretty sure Mining isn't one of them), which makes it harder for some characters trained in skills that go up to 70 or 80 to obtain DP compared to those that max at 50 and so son (but who also have maxed other non-accountable skills).
I once was targeting Xylaal but somehow I ended challenging someone else, a newcomer who didn't know what was going on. I yielded and lost 40DP. So yeah, it's very easy to exploit the DP system so it might really not reflect at all your ability in PvP. A win-loss count could be more significant, but then with the combat bugs and all that wouldn't be completely accurate either.
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I personally think DP are unnecessary. Your character has no concept of them and would count his wins and loses as exactly that, not according to points.
Having it for the sake of OOC comparison is pointless as it is too easily exploited and does not give a very accurate indication of skills or anything useful for that matter. I am not to sure about the win-loss scoring though. Kill a bunch of nuubs and you have a high score? If this works differently please correct me, but the current way to gain DP seems better.
However if the current system where to be used I would say let the scores only be valid for fights taking place in a certain place, such as a PvP arena or such. Thus any informal battles would not earn you any DP; only official challenges. This would be more accurate as in reality there would only be records of the formal ones not the rest. Anything other than this such as training with a friend or mugging and killing someone would not count towards this score but be left to your character to keep score of if they wish to do so.
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Very long time ago, I thought duel points are for the purposes of experience being calculated after player character defeat by another player character. Unlike to current mobs, every character is different, but experience has to to calculated. Probably i was completly wrong and DP had nothing to do with this experience. Devs did it so that you cant even train with PC (AFAIK), to avoid exploiting and so my hope is hopeless ;P.
DP has some potential and even if in current forum them mean not much, they could be of some help in developing the experience aspect.
The conclussion is funny.
Why all the story about experience and DP when at some point playing CB i realized the experience and PPs are completly not needed. I find it funny and hope someone else will too :) .