PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Roahn on October 12, 2006, 05:17:20 pm
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There is so much debate about using healing potions in duel. I would like to see the game changed so that healing potions are disabled when in a duel.
~~~ Roahn ~~~
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ehhh, no.
Again like in that dueling ettiquit(sp) thread, the will to survive over shadows chivalry, and its realistic if someone has a chance to reach into their inventory and pull out a potion, that he/she could use it..
HOWEVER, I would like to see an animation for using potions, like drinking it down, so as to take time in which the user is vunerable, thus making it more risky to down a potion in a duel, but if you have the oppertunity then you could...
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There is so much debate about using healing potions in duel. I would like to see the game changed so that healing potions are disabled when in a duel.
~~~ Roahn ~~~
Buchahahaha, you people are funny. I already said what i think about such posts in some other thread you really couldnt miss. This and you have just broke this forum rule.
So... basing on your logic, i give my opinion:
No
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Buchahahaha, you people are funny. I already said what i think about such posts in some other thread you really couldnt miss. This and you have just broke this forum rule.
So... basing on your logic, i give my opinion:
No
rofl.
If you dont want to use potions in a duel, then...dont?
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It's not a matter of ME using a potion, it's all about not wanting the OTHER GUY to use potions!
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I think the better choice was suggested by Ithorius - drinking a potion shouldn't be automatic. Your character should have to pause, wait for the animation to stop, and only then get back into combat. Plus if you're hit during swallowing, the process breaks.
I've also liked a suggestion made long long ago in here that gulping many potions one after another would have a very negative effect rather than positive.
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I think the better choice was suggested by Ithorius - drinking a potion shouldn't be automatic. Your character should have to pause, wait for the animation to stop, and only then get back into combat. Plus if you're hit during swallowing, the process breaks.
I've also liked a suggestion made long long ago in here that gulping many potions one after another would have a very negative effect rather than positive.
Yes, these two ideas are one of the best. I can remember the second be mentioned few times, but it is good to recal it.
I will add to your and Ithorius.
- It is hard to drink a potion whe you have smething else in your hand. A very skillful, agile person could still manage to drink potion with dagger or short blade in hand, ut the larger the item, the harder to drink a potion. So maybe the animation of drinking a potion could be longer/include additional moves.
- the effect of healing isn't instant, we could slowly heal over a time of few minutes. (its just that it is rather weird to see somethink work instantly, a body of living being is rather complex)
I believe all these ideas solve concern of people who don't like drinking a potion while fighting. We also has more complex and real fighting tactics.
PS. Roahn, this and some posts above are example of good wish.
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I want to add that this is where player communication is important. First of all there has to be a reason for the duel. People don't just fight to fight. (If you are just dueling for fun then it is ooc and anything goes in my humble opinion.)
Second I think if you don't want potions in a duel then you NEED to say so then. NOT after. Lay down the rules through /tells to the other player on what you will and will not accept. Then ask them what they prefer and come to an agreement before dueling. If the player wants to use potions and you do not want that and feel it unfair then the simple answer is don't duel with that character. If you choose not to communicate with the other player and the player uses potions then you have no cause to complain.
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Mmh, I don't think that potions should be disabled when duelling, but I can see two possible changes to the way how potions are used:
1) Drinking a potion should take time. It is not just pressing a key with the macro, but a process to find the potion and then drink it. Perhaps characters with higher agility could be better at it, but it still should take some time. While you are busy trying to find the potion and drinking it, you shouldn't be able to keep attacking. You might be able to keep defending yourself at some level, but it should have some drawback because you are busy with something else.
2) The effect of the potion shouldn't be instant. Can you imagine having a headache, taking an Aspirin and the headache is gone? No, you need to wait until it works and taking more than one Aspirin may help, but not too much. At some point it shouldn't matter how many potions you drink, the effect would be still the same.
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If the potion worked like "cast magic", I think it would be much better. Taking a potion will take time like casting a spell, it cancels your attack if you decide to take a potion, or cancels your consumption of the potion if you attack while drinking it. Since it takes time to consume, you can't use more than one at once, just like spell magic.
The time to take effect might be ok too, but it's magic, not aspirin. So why should it follow the rules of the digestive/circulatory system?
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The time to take effect might be ok too, but it's magic, not aspirin. So why should it follow the rules of the digestive/circulatory system?
Well, I have very little or no experiences with magic in real life, so I really don't know. For me, magic helps you healing, but doesn't have an instant effect. But at the end it is all about the balance in the game and if it is enough that drinking a potion takes some time, I'm fine with it.
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Araye, I cant really say why, but:
alchey is not exactly the ame as magic, it is using it in some other form, and also in some more real way than magic, I'd say alchemy is half magic, half chemy of our real world. Also because its like storing magic powers into a vial of liquid substance, it may be axpected to be harder than a pure magic, cast directly by a mage. Maybe as it takes time to store the magic power into the potion, it also takes time for it to take effect. While a mage may control how he heal, the alchemist can't really control it while he make universal potion for many and very different kinds of wounds.
The better the alchemist, the better potions he does. More HP may be restored wit one potion and its effect may be also shorter. Bad alchemist will make it good, but its effect will fully end after 30 minutes, while it will maybe resore many HP at that time, master alchemist will make a potion restoring the same amount of HP, but it will take 5 minutes max.
I know it is preferred way in every good RPG i have pleasure to play.
Ultimately i prefer this concept, coz my char is alchemist and I have been paying attention to different ideas about alchemy since some longer while. Basing on this I can say that complex ideas, with many different factors, like the one above, gives more realism and in consequence more rp opportunities. We can play with our chars a role and be really experts about it. Not because of stats and skills, but because we really know what we are saying and it won't be obvious for other, coz the job your char is doing isn't that easy to master just like that. Also a way to encourage specialisation.
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I totally agree with you Nikodemus. If the potion is produced through alchemy, it would be more like "medicine". I don't know how alchemy is going to work in this game, but it would make sense that it take time to have an effect if it works as you have described.
I have played games where the potion is simply a bottled spell and takes affect once opened and I have played games where the components of the potions must be gathered and assembled with a spell of intent to form a potion that was like medicine. Maybe in PS it will be like this?
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I actually agree with a lot of all your ideas here, about changing the system. My suggestion of simply disabling potions during a duel was just one idea, and the simplest one I could imagine. But other solutions sound good too, such as making the potion take some time to drink, and if you're interrupted by an attack of weapon or magic, it fails. Also not being able to attack while drinking the potions would be good, just like with Life Infusion spell. These other ideas would be superior, but would probably take a lot more time for the devs to set up than simply disabling them when in a duel.
Anyway, any of those solutions would be a big improvement over the current system of mashing a key and being instantly at 100% health, even while in the middle of combat. The current system gives a strong character an even greater advantage over a weaker opponent. The weaker character might have to hit the stronger one 3 or 4 or 6 times to kill a stronger opponent, giving the stronger player ample time to mash "Heal" if he gets hit a couple of times. However potions won't help a weaker character at all, since a strong character will kill in one hit.
It is basically impossible for a weaker character to kills a stronger one, even with superior skill and tactics, if potions are used as they currently exist.
~~~ Roahn ~~~
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To me this looks kind of simple:
The aspect that you can stack the effect of nearly unlimited statt increasing potions spoils the game. Specialy in duels also the aspect that you could live a nearly unlimited time if you have 60 health potions.
I dont like if something is forbidden in duels that works in the normal game. specialy this will make potention alchemist - i hope to come later in the game - unemployed cause potions arent that interresting.
So my suggestion is very simple:
In magic you have a delay before the effect and cant do alot during casting.
With Potions the effect schould be take place, and then comes a delay in what you can do most but not attack etc.
These has nothing to do with realism but is usefull for the game. Potions have to work imediatly to fullfill the role of an emergency help. But why that have to result in unlimited potions per minute?
In a Duel a health potion user will pe attackable in that time but will make no damage ... so on a long term he will only use up all his potions. So a normal duel will become a bit longer compared to no potions (what aint that bad) but not endless.
Statt increasing potions will also be usable, but f.e. if the effect stays 30 seconds and you wait 5 secconds after you can take a 2nd potion .. you will only be able to stack the effect of 6 potions. If this will f.e. increase your STR by 30 ... I think it is a fair thing in duels and gameplay.
This is still not perfect .. but i think the idea is expandable
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These has nothing to do with realism but is usefull for the game. Potions have to work imediatly to fullfill the role of an emergency help. But why that have to result in unlimited potions per minute?
You have completly wrong approach to this game.
this is not FPS
this is not MMOG
this is not powerleveling game
this also isnt game for poeple who want to feel godlike
This is RPG. Amoung many things, we create a world for rpers and rpers only
Read my words and try to understand.
Realism=Roleplaying
I'm not trying to be meen, I'm trying to clear, because you looks like a smart person.
I think the thread is full of realistic ideas already, so that we have working concept for proper potions usage, another ideas are welcomed, but they needs to fit this game.
Nice that you agree that it shouldn't be possible to drink many potions at once.
Think why you want instant potion effect. What does it really serve?
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Ok..... just wrote myself another little self-to-self pm rather than getting heated offtopicly on a thread... hope this works out better than 'pet death'...
In any event here is my on-topic suggestion: leave it all how it is.
'he won the duel by using a potion'; well he also lost out on carrying X weight & a inventory slot by lugging the potion around till using it. And you could have had one too-- just cause you didn't think ahead doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to have done so.. He drank his potions too fast, well you can drink equally fast--besides if he drank em so fast he'll run out sooner. and if you're saying he can't realistically drink so many so fast I'll remind you what i said in dueling etiquette thread: a game hour is really something like 10-20 minutes. [--besides which that opens a whole can of beans for equiping anything "faster than the eyes can see", or for that matter equpipng/dequiping anything when both your hands are already full.]... He can carry more potions? you could have cast weakness (notice no one answered my request for gms' position on Weakness in the thread on dueling etiquette), but realistically if he is so much stronger than you that his carrying capacity allows a lot more potions than yours allows you--then his strength is aleady more a deciding factor than the potions, if that argument held weight then what about when ranged weapons are implemented with expendable ammunition "he could carry more JUST cause he's stronger"--well yes, that is one of the many benefits to training up one's strength, perhaps you should try it if you hope to win more fights. Every complaint i seen so far about it being 'unfair' strikes me as just plain whiny. The complaints about realism I adddress with this: you shouldn't be able to drink a potion when at a low health like 1% right? you'd be too weak to lift it to your mouth... probably too weak to attack too, certainly too weak to run, maybe too weak to stand even, maybe too weak to carry any inventory, to defend yourself... Get the idea? If we want to nitpick about realism rather than keeping things useful & gamelike then as soon as you take combat damage everything should drop by equal % to your hp: move speed, attack speed, attack damage, carrying capacity, mental stamina, temporary () agility... if you even think about saying how unfair that is because of how much that makes the fight hinge on who hits first: Try thinking of a realistic fight. And to really hammer the point home: If realism is really such a priority over people being able to enjoy it as a game then there is no need to challenge someone to a duel before killing them... the town guard would kill/jail you? -right, just like police caught jack the ripper the first time he killed... realism.
If realism=roleplay maybe there shouldn't be fantastic races, or magic, or a way out of deathrealm. Realism & this game's intended roleplay aren't the same thing (AFAIK), they are intended to be very different, but connected concepts-- and if you think even 50% of roleplay in games is realistic, please get me in touch with your dealer; I'd love to try whatever you've been smoking...
(IMO) Video Games in general, but ESPECIALY roleplay=fantasy.
PS: RE: "It is basically impossible for a weaker character to kills a stronger one, even with superior skill and tactics, if potions are used as they currently exist." weaker characters should generally lose to stronger ones I'm pretty sure (unless we are throwing all realism at all out the window), but if the skills and tactics are superior BY ENOUGH (which all depends how much weaker they are) their skills & tactics should win it for them...
Personally Speaking: I have no hotkey for healing potions, but i think the idea of changing the system is inviting things to be lamer. Like changing NPC chat to saying the NPC's name because it's more realistic to address a stranger by their name instead of clicking them with a pointer as if to tap someone on the shoulder... if it ain't broke why mess with it?. There are plety of people (in my opinion too many people) who already feel that using potions in duels is dishonorable etc, so to them this is a non-issue as they wouldn't use them anyway right?-- Implement any suggestion in this thread for changing how potions work & suddenly you have less options for those whose characters are supposed to be dishonorable [Note: people are rarely dishonourable if it will only impeede them & not provide any pertinent advantage. Think about it]. I'll stop now before I get more people mad at me...
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Since we are talking about magic like effects, the idea of "realism" has to be seen in a very different way.
I am/was thinking that we need a potion to be an imediate effect to make it more valuebly compared to magic. I think of potions like tradable magic. And i want to see good alchemist later who are able to play a huge role in the society.
So the alchemist who made the potion already waited for making the potion work. since its magic the effect can take place more less imediatly. I would like a delay of 1-2 seconds (time to catch and drink), This would be fine for Health potions i think, but this time is much to short to create a working barrier for the effect of statt increasing potions. F.e. I would like a better potion maker to be able to make a STR potion much stronger than others and that this made the value increases over propotional to the effect. Meaning: 1 poton +1 should be much more valuable than 2 potions +5. This would be acived by a much longer waiting time. f.e. if you can only take 1 potion every 10 sec. and a potion will last 40 sec. you are able to gain +20 with the +5 potions and +40 with the +10 potions. But if we would make that you wait for the effect 10 secconds there is no use for a health potion anymore.
I could live with the easy solution: if you take a potion you behave exactly like casting a spell (but i would like the player being able to run or get hit without breaking the "spell") the "spell-time" must vary for the different potions/effects: short for health (1-2 sec) long for statt increasing ones (5-20 sec)
Offtopic: i would also like to see food being similar but having an effect diffeent from healing like it is now. f.e. Mental stamina could be "healed" by it. Or there could be an effect caled hunger ... RP would be much better if people would gain mesurable benefit from getting a "Hot meal" (hot food will cool down over the time if stored in inventory) in a tavern with others.
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If you want a fight or are willing to accept one... then come prepared.
Of course.. if it's an experienced RPer they'll usually ask the 3 basic rules..
1) Is PVP magic okay?
2) Are health potions okay to use during battle?
3) Any rules on endurance/strength boosting potions?
If you can confirm these just before a duel... you should be okay.. at least with any experienced players.
If they're not wanting any rules.. then it's a free-for-all... and if you haven't arranged rules... then you have to assume that a free-for-all will be the case anyway.
At least... that's what I've inferred from reading posts here and speaking to people in-game.