PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Phinehas on October 21, 2006, 08:43:51 pm
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I don't believe this has been discussed before...
I would like to see magic implemented in life outside of healing and attack/defense spells. I would like to see spells that a wizard could use in every-day life. What if there's a wizard whose goal in life isn't to walk around killing things that randomly jump out at him? It's not terribly realistic that even the most powerful wizards can come up with no more interesting spells than ones that simply deal damage to their enemies. Enchanting comes to mind, as a very simple example. I shudder to use this as reference, but look at Harry Potter. There were spells for all sorts of things there, in fact very few were ones that were simply combat-oriented. We could use spells that fix things, spells that create locks, all sorts of spells that make life easier in small ways, or more interesting. I think this would make being a mage a much fuller concept.
Don't tell me that this is something that could only be implemented much farther down the road, that there are more important things to do right now, etc... I know that. I'm not stupid. I'm just interested in finding out if this has even been considered at all, and suggesting that it should.
On a side note, I have another idea that is much simpler and could be implemented tomorrow for all the work it would take. I think that there should be an intelligence limit for magic wielders. I think that if your intelligence is not above a certain level, a fairly high one, then you shouldn't be able to use magic at all. I think that this would put a lot more reality into the game. For instance, this would keep all those moronic sword-fighters from somehow being able to cast all the same spells that the most powerful wizards cast. This would also mean that if you wanted to be a magic wielder, you would have to sacrifice some physical abilities. Perhaps it could be balanced in such a way that there would be those who could wield a weapon and some magic as well to supplement it. Basically, I'm suggesting a system in which the better you are at magic, the worse you're going to be at using weapons. Conversely, if you are the world's best sword fighter, you won't know squat about magic. I think this would add a lot of reality to the game and make mages a more valid "class". I also think that this would prevent powerlevellers from simply being the best at everything and add an element of RP to the game.
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The diversity you mention is something that a lot of people crave for, I being one of them. I didn't play many RPG before PlaneShift and didn't see what role-play really was before it, but in terms of game-mechanics I'd say Morrowind can provide a good source of inspiration in terms of magic types and spells to enhance the current system.
Anyway, back on-topic I am not so sure about this limiting factor. Sure you are absolutely correct when saying that a very good warrior should not be able to cast all the spells of a wizard, but I for one wouldn't like to see a game-limit in that sense, because it takes away from the freedom somewhat. Right now it's quite easy to gain levels and become a Renainssance person, good at everything (and knowing nothing :) ) but I suppose that it won't be like this all the time.
I imagine the following scenario. There will be a "time" and "age" feature implemented in game, and then folks won't have the time to gain all the levels they want because there is a limited life-span. Basically you have to choose your path in life at a certain point because of a limited life-span, but that is your choice, not limited from within the game.
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Indeed. I was thinking of it as a temporary solution.
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I would love to see the limit thing put in. I find when you are up against people that are amazing at magic and using weapons it makes roleplaying extreemly difficult, especialy when your trying to rp an evil character who and can't find an advantage over them at all.
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Exactly the sort of problem I'm thinking of. I don't think it would be that hard to implement, and would boost roleplay hugely.
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I think all stats should have limits imposed on them at creation due to a 'talent' system balanced with a 'weakness' system. Basically, you would purchase strengths (talents) that your character would be good at, and be able to level easy in with your 'Creation points' as you do (sort of) now. However, if you want to go beyond the normal 'maxed' limit of a skill, or want more talents than you CP provide for, you would have to 'purchase' them with weaknesses equal in value to the extended talents.
And the 'events' system for giving stats needs to be trashed. It is lame and unrealistic. Serving a blacksmith for X amount of years will not make you a good blacksmith if your character does not have the talents to back it up. What if he sucked at blacksmithing the entire X years, and the master kept him on out of pity? The same goes for every single one of the events. 'Events' are only half of who you are.
What I would really like to see is an event/personality/attribute questionnaire to assign stats based on the exact character you wish to achieve, or play right out of the box. This would set limits on your characters by default, yet allow for players to make 'mature' characters as well.
Beginning Skill Menu :
Example questions (very basic) to assign beginning skills:
My character is how many years old? [enter limited number]
He (based on race and gender selected in previous menu) started working at [age].
He was a [select profession (including 'evil' ones, 'nothing at all' or ‘Events’ that Dev make up] for [number] years. He was [great, good, average, poor] at it, and [enjoyed, hated, didn't mind] it. (note: being bad at a job is not a bad thing all the time, and may enhance certain Talents in the next menu,, or even unlock secret ones.)
[repeat previous question until current age is met.]
Personality questions: (these would affect skills such as charisma, learning, and will, and also be a guide to creating a personality for your character to play by):
If [this] happened, <character’s name> would [do this (list of answers here)].
Talent Menu:
Examples for 'talents' that you may start out with, or learn based on your character's learning ability in that area. (You are limited to so many talents. Some will be enhanced by your choices made above. 'Learning level' is how fast your character will be able to learn each talent.)
Random: [surprise me] (talents and learning level are random...life is like a box of chocolates)
semi-random [surprise me in these areas: Checklist: combat, crafting, magic, business, rogue, arts, etc] (You select the Talents, but the learning level is random)
Non random [checklist as above, though more detailed] (you select the exact talents and learning level. This is limited based on a 'fair' number)
Matured Skill Menu and attributes: (this is where you 'purchase' exact Skills (matured Talents) and attributes (natural features) that you want to start out with. You must pay for them with weaknesses)
Strengths: [Check all that apply, then check off your level of learned skill 1 - 10 [novice-----master]
Random [surprise me]
Arts:
Painter [1-10]
Clay artist []
Weaver []
Cook []
etc.
Combat:
Axe combat []
Short blade []
long blade []
etc.
Magic:
Healing []
Fire []
cold []
wind []
Mind []
Dark []
etc (or use the Ways, but I think some of the above should span several Ways.)
Crafting/buisness:
[all crafts]
Selling [] (affects selling prices to NPCs)
Buying []
etc.
Attributes:
Resistant to [checklist] (magic, poison, charm, old looking Lemur smells, etc)
Immune to [checklist]
Strength [1---10]
Speed [1---10]
Awareness [1---10]
etc.
Many other mature skills to choose from. Now the fun part. You have to buy all of those skills with weaknesses.
Weaknesses: Note: some weaknesses will cancel out strengths to make a different attribute. Example, Fat + speed = a guy that moves normal speed, is a large target, has low endurance, but is quite strong. Armor and clothing will cost a lot extra.
Random [surprise me]
Unlearn-able skills:
Can not learn [check all that apply]:
[Select combats]
[select crafts]
[select arts]
[select magic Ways]
Phobias: (these would be game mechanic enforced. All hail the Sheeples.)
Heights [severity 1---10] game ‘zones’ would affect character movement and directly affect skills. Fighting ability would be reduced on top of a building, for example.
Water [1---10]
Closed spaces [ ] caves and such
Open spaces []
Crowds []
Dark []
Attributes:
Weak against [checklist] (magic, poison, charm, old looking Lemur smells, etc)
Destroyed by [checklist]
Cheap Drunk
Frail
Slow
Fat
Vision (limits what you can see, but not completely)
etc.
Note: Strengths and weaknesses can be changed by ingame events.
That is how I would like to see the system ‘balanced’. No one could make characters that are godlike in all areas, which is just a sad way to roleplay.
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Uhh... yeah! :D :P
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I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Morrowind thing. I enjoyed the customizable spell system, but honestly, other than the customization, it wasn't very vast. It was just rehashing of the same 20 or so effects.
I think what he's talking about is things like conjuring food and water, as an example. (Not in the World Of Awfulcraft sense, "lol can i hav sum watr 4 my spels pliz?", but rather in the sense of creating such things purely for entertainment purposes. You could choose from a list of beverages and foods to create, and spread them festively around the town square. (If you were so inclined.))
Also the ability to strike up a camp fire without having to have matches or a tinderbox, an open spell (to circumvent simple locks and unhing chests, or simply to push open an already unlocked version of either if you were feeling lazy that day), a spell that allows you to freeze the surface of water so that you can walk upon it. They would have to be very strange and most likely unique spells, but it'd certainly be interesting to see. A fun suggestion would be the 'juggling lights' spell from the Quest For Glory series. This almost had no use at all, but it would be something you'd imagine a wizard being able to do, and it would be vastly entertaining. This way, wizards could choose to entertain their fellows by making lovely lights dance about in the air. Also, the ability to levitate small objects about with a minor stream of arcane energy. (If they wanted an apple, and the apple was over there, they could get to it without getting up from their seat.)
As far as the fighter vs. mage debate, you have to remember that some of the most popular classes in tabletop roleplaying games are melee combatants with minor to major arcane or divine abilities.
That said, the devs seem to be going for an open-ended feeling. It's difficult to keep things open ended while restricting them at the same time. Though it is in the spirit of realism not to allow a weak stick-figure mage to swing a sword twice his height, likewise a brute mercenary who weighs 250 pounds and specializing in pro-bono, unrequested facial reconstruction to sneak stealthily about, the line is blurry. It's difficult to figure out where to draw it without stopping someone from doing something they feel they aught to be able to do.
I would be in favor of a GM to review background stories to determine whether or not someone can do something. It'd be something you could select when right clicking a player, the background story, and every time they wanted to learn a skill that wasn't particularly aligned to their profession, they'd have to write a decent roleplaying reason for doing so, and add it in there.
It may not stop people, but at least it would force them to be creative (therefor it would stop PLers, who are generally as creative as the sponge I keep next to my sink) and sate the people who are clamoring for a reason that the character would be able to tend to a lovely herb garden on Saturday, while by Monday they'd be off braining orcs with a battle axe.
Lack of creativity should be considered a disease, I think that's my final word on the subject.
--Polar
(Oh, as a sidenote, I like Moon's take on the weakness/strength system, though from a completely roleplaying point of view. That way you could more accurately roleplay someone who'd say, lost an eye in a tragic 'tavern related incident'. This is something like the customization system you see in GURPS (generic universal rolelaying system) a tabletop RPG. You are allocated a certain number of points by the GM, and then they give you a certain number of points of weakness you can take (1 eyed character, sterile character, compulsive gambler, the list goes on for pages and pages) to add points to your pool, with which you must purchase your stats from (str, dex, etc) and can then buy advantages with (character with an extra arm, character with natural armor, character with gills, etc.) This is balanced though, so that the player can't just take 30 disadvantages, and be playing a blind, one foot tall, one eyed, parapalegic, compulsive gambler/drinker, who has 40 points in strength (twice that of a superhuman.) It doesn't have to be balanced in such a way in a roleplaying sense, but one has to temper here and there.
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MMOGURPS.....
I like it.
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Uhh... yeah! :D :P
Erhm... what he said! :P
No seriously, some hectic ideas, I like where this is heading. :D
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I want a spell for removing dirt from stuff so I can wander around obsessively making things look pretty and new.
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I don't know if Morrowind is good example or not. I didn't play mage in it so if i give examples, there won't be many. Not offensive spells which I remember, are these:
teleport
unlock
lock
fortify of different stats/skills
cure disease
night vision
fly
slow falling (to avoid fall damage)
breath under water
invisibility
increased speed
This kind of spells are these i would like to see as first. Spells which i want to see later are spells which serve no particular purpose except fun, or something what can be done beter with use of conventional means (like repaiting) considering the rate PS is evolving, we it will take like 8 years ;P Thats why i want to see spells like these i listed. Spells whih are helpfull in various adventures, and which are usefull in experiencing something what you don't see everyday.
I don't know why this discussion about limits in this thread ;P This is another attempt to enforce specialisation. While this topic has many copies in wishlist, the spells wish isn't that common.
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Levitate <other character>
A cooperative spell that may be needed for some quests. Sadly, to prevent greaving, this would have to be a [confirm] spell for both players until a better greaving system is implemented.
Multiple people levitating one person could get them quite high... but it drains mana at a steady rate, so you have to bring that person down slowly by removing one levitate at a time, or they come down fast.
This could be used to pick up any liftable object based on your strength in this spell.
No true wizard is going to get his hands dirty minning ore when he can just pull the stuff out of the ground.
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I think most wizards would prefer to hire miners than to disturb unpredictable forces of nature. In a pinch they might be willing to force their way through a solid barrier but as far as mining goes it would seem to be a huge drain on their magic resources just to get a small return. At best you might summon elemental beings to do the work but then there is the problem of binding them to your will. Simply sucking the ore out of the hillside is unrealistic.
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I agree, bilbous. As powerful as Phinehas is, wasting his time burning rock into dust so he can retrieve a few shiny lumps of gold just isn't going to happen. He'd rather extort the money from some poor fool and then hire a miner.
Polar, a lot of what you said is good, but I'm actually looking for more practical spells than just random fun ones. So yes, things such as making food, locking or unlocking, repairing items, enchanting items, etc. etc. I want to see there be more use for magic than just fighting. Again, take Harry Potter for an example, so little of their magic is used to hurt people, a lot of it's stuff like teleportation, telekinesis, transformation, manipulation, etc. etc.
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Part of the problem with such a wish list is that some effects are nearly impossible to impliment in a game system. If you take a look at traditional D&D and compare it to the computer versions the spell lists are always shorter on the computer and the effects are often less. Take for instance a teleport spell. In the tabletop game your destination can be just about anywhere you want subject to your expertise level but in any computer game it is almost always limited to a set of specific locations. Now it would be possible to have user defined tp sites but you would have to go somewhere and mark the location first unless you want people using the coordinate system. That could lead to some nasty surprises such as materialising 100 ft above or below the ground. How it could work is you go somewhere and spend some time studying the surrounding then at the end of the marking spell you would give the location a unique name. Thereafter you would be able to "/cast teleport home." You could build up a list of places to TP and your list could be restricted in length according to skill level.
Illusion spells are most problematic as it deals with characters perceptions rather than reality. I could make that bottomless pit look like a charming tavern but that would involve altering the world geometry because the bottomless pit is only there because it looks like it is there and you fall if you step in it. There are only a limited number of models available, more can be made but not at a whim. It takes some doing.
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Aye, I realise the need for practicality at :beta: a time in which there are only a handful of programmers :beta:, I was just throwing some things out there. (I'd help with the programming if I could, but unless it's Dspeak or something like the system in NWN where it's essentially plugging in values, I'm about as proficient as a monkey on a typewriter. Not a thousand, just one.) The mass levitation thing could be interesting, depending on how you handled it. (To be useful, you would have to at least partially be able to control the horizontal movement after you were levitating a bit of the ol' up 'n down.)
In theory, you could use something like a light spell to illuminate the area around you. Whether a physical manifestation or a general circle of light spread around your character. A lot of RPGs do this. (I'm not sure whether or not it's already been implemented, to be truthful. The last time I played PS was years ago. I don't think there was actually a skill bar at the time.) That could be useful in any number of situations.
Also, in regard to mining, there was a spell in an older game I played, Betrayal In Antara, I believe, that allowed you to see where minerals were hidden in stone. It wouldn't allow you to extract them unless you had the proper tools, but you could find out where they are specifically. This would encourage miner/wizard teams (as discussed, whether the miners and likewise wizards would be mercenaries or not would depend on the situation.)
But yea, I suppose the only problem is the current lack of programming personelle. It's difficult to organize a list of priorities when y'know whatever you try to do will take you forever.
--Polar
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The movement in the air is extremal simple.... but PS need to implement mouslook for this. We have it already and the only problem with it, is when it is on, the interaction with world with use of mousebuttons is disabled. If not this, there wouldn't be ever discussion about movement problems ;)
As for levitating others. I suppose they will just keep the same height as the mage, or if the mage won't levitate, he use movement interface like he was the person who is levitated.
I have been also thinking about using magic for prospecting. But more of magic tool for miners. A tool which would show distance and direction to discovered resource. The path wouldn't be straight and there could be few points on it, which would lead to the resource. Additionaly, the prospector would have to buy some rods or alike, which would have to be put into the ground and once used, the the prospector would try to find the resource with use of the tool. Rots would have to be bought and each rot one use only.
Just an idea. I know it would be really great fun for miners to look in this way for resources, instead of digging everytime in the same place.
Sometimes small mines could be found and we could have more complex behaviour for multiple miners, mining in a mine found by only one prospector, if the mine would be big enough.
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Spells for map-makers
Birds eye View:
When cast, the players camera view shifts to a top-down perspective and then zooms out to view the surrounding area. (As if they were a bird flying high in the air and looking down, or more appropriatly were having an out-of body experience and looking down from above) After about 30 seconds the camera view returns to normal. Should be enough time to find any landmarks or players they want to find, but long enough you don't want to do it during combat or while doing anything risky.
Would be useful for people making maps of areas or if the absolutly NEED to have an 'in-game' map (though its technically not a map) could have limited use if used indoors or in a cave due to ceilings.
Mining Echo:
causes a subtrarainian pulse underground, if there are any mineral deposits or buried items it returns the distance to the closest of those underground items. For example, if there is an iron mine 45 yards away, it returns the distance '45 yards'. A miner would not know what was found or in what direction it was. Would need to use over various points to triangulate the mines position.
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Oh, and I am personally pretty interested in the idea of a limited life-span for characters. Allow players to carry over some of their knowlege, skills, and equipment to an 'heir' and you might have something. Sort of instead of running around making an uber-character who can do anything, the player manages a line of characters over several generations.
Actually... that would require completly re-working the entire training system because people faced with a limited lifespan might not be able to genocide over 1000 rogues and trepors to get the XP needed to get lvl 10 metallurgy or mining.
Meh, forget I said anything.
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Also, in regard to mining, there was a spell in an older game I played, Betrayal In Antara, I believe, that allowed you to see where minerals were hidden in stone. It wouldn't allow you to extract them unless you had the proper tools, but you could find out where they are specifically. This would encourage miner/wizard teams (as discussed, whether the miners and likewise wizards would be mercenaries or not would depend on the situation.)
That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Actual useful spells.
I have been also thinking about using magic for prospecting. But more of magic tool for miners. A tool which would show distance and direction to discovered resource.
I'd have to say that I don't like this so much. The more magic items there are that can do everything a wizard does, the less need for wizards. I think that the world should need wizards in the same way it needs miners or traders or swordsmen. Wizards shouldn't be an "Oh, and if you feel like being a magic-wielder, go for it, but there's not much point" sort of class, it should have a valid contribution. Now, perhaps it would be cool if a wizard could imbue an item with a spell, and therefore create items that they could sell to miners or other sorts, but I'm against the idea of going to the store and picking up a Rod of Ore Location on your way out to mine.
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If not a tool whiuch may be used by non-mages, what about the same tool but this time it has to be used by somewhat skilled mage? I mean, maybe the prospecting isn't that easy and with use of a tools, a mage may localize the spot with approx to 1 meter.
In such idea, mages are more than needed, but what we will gain are: half miners and half mages specialised in prospecting. Its because prospecting is fun, while mining the resource is the "fruit" of it.
Maybe we will have mage prospectors and miners only working in pairs from time to time, but half mage half moner will be common proffesion.
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That might work I suppose. I'm just saying that magic is magic, not another tool, not a form of weapon that consists of sticking the pointy end into a person and therefore requires no intellect whatsoever, magic should be a limited thing, where only those who have really studied it can handle it. I'm not talking about enchanted swords where the only thing magic does is enhance damage inflicted, but I am saying that "yer av'rage drunk dwarven miner" shouldn't be able to pull out his Rod of Ore Location, concentrate deeply despite the drunken stupor, and have the magic subtly speak to him, pointing out the location of the ores he desires...
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Unless maybe that would make the item malfunction?
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Going back to the first post of the thread, this is all stuff that has been talked about multiple times in older threads. The suggestions on intelligence and powerlevellers would do nothing to limit powerlevellers. Powerlevellers have more resources to alter their characters, so they'll always be the most powerful. The only way to stop them is to change what it means to be the most powerful.
So :thumbdown: to this thread. Sorry.
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Yes, we know you hate me, now... back to the conversation...
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Yes, we know you hate me, now... back to the conversation...
Whoa, sensitive. I thought you wanted people to be objective about ideas? That's all I'm doing. If it means so much to you, I'm sorry I said anything. ???
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Well, let's just say that everytime I say or post something, you're right there to throw it back in my face with some rather subjective negativity. I'm getting sick of it. For instance, in this thread, people have already thrown a few ideas around and enjoyed thinking about what could and might be. I'd say that already warrants a :thumbup:.
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Well, let's just say that everytime I say or post something, you're right there to throw it back in my face with some rather subjective negativity. I'm getting sick of it. For instance, in this thread, people have already thrown a few ideas around and enjoyed thinking about what could and might be. I'd say that already warrants a :thumbup:.
You really like that word, "subjective". You seem to use it whenever you disagree with something. So everything you agree with is "objective", and everything you disagree with is "subjective". Hmm.
If you think that I'm replying to everything you say or post, then you're just plain paranoid. How about we get back on topic now?
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Well, let's just say that everytime I say or post something, you're right there to throw it back in my face with some rather subjective negativity. I'm getting sick of it. For instance, in this thread, people have already thrown a few ideas around and enjoyed thinking about what could and might be. I'd say that already warrants a :thumbup:.
You really like that word, "subjective". You seem to use it whenever you disagree with something. So everything you agree with is "objective", and everything you disagree with is "subjective". Hmm.
Mmm... let's ask around, shall we? In fact, let's make a huge controversial thread and name it "Zanzibar vs Phinehas" and find out what people think... :D
If you think that I'm replying to everything you say or post, then you're just plain paranoid. How about we get back on topic now?
Yes, let's.
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*carefully steers the thread away from Flameland back to Constructive Commentary Country*
If I recall correctly, 'utility spells' is something Xordan has been wanting to work on for a while now. Combat magic is all nice and well, but I agree that the chance for mages to have fun with their talents and do something besides smash or make more smashable should be available. Work on magic is a bit slow as Xordan is getting his soul eaten by school at the moment while Talad keeps poking at him with a stick, but I believe that sort of spell variety will indeed happen.
Concerning the second proposal on limitations:
Basically, I'm suggesting a system in which the better you are at magic, the worse you're going to be at using weapons. Conversely, if you are the world's best sword fighter, you won't know squat about magic. I think this would add a lot of reality to the game and make mages a more valid "class".
"Classes" and class-like settings is something PlaneShift is trying to avoid - the freedom here is limited only by your time and effort. Thus if someone wants to pursue a physical fighting skill but study magic on the side, they'd have that opportunity. Of course the better they'd want to become, the more time they would have to spend studying and practicing, which will naturally slow down the progression of both or either. Progression in the future will be nothing as it is now, so to attain a higher rank (and to actually max something out) you'd need some serious effort (of course the goal is to have it immensly fun as well; no need to be cynical, all you "pure roleplayers" - "leveling" can be made enjoyable as well if it's done right). That sort of division however, magic or swords, feels too restricting personally.
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Yes, that second thing was suggested as a temporary fix until we get a better levelling system.
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I want a spell that makes me look like a living lavalamp, I am fluid rock after all. More seriously a spell to animate textures would be unusual. Even more so if there was some way to upload the texture animations.
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I want a spell that makes me look like a living lavalamp, I am fluid rock after all. More seriously a spell to animate textures would be unusual. Even more so if there was some way to upload the texture animations.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24709.0
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What is your point? I don't get it.
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What is your point? I don't get it.
There are people who agree with you. It's a good thing.
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see I didn't get that from that thread. There were some ideas that had a slight similarity but I saw nothing about Krannic lavalamps, or animated and uploadable textures. Thanks for the vote of confidence though. Just shows nobody is as original as they might think.