PlaneShift
Gameplay => Newbie Help (Start Here) => Topic started by: Gerlon on October 27, 2006, 09:26:19 am
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Well i installed the game today and spent an entire day killing rats so i could get a rock pick and train mining.. anyway it was 1am by the time i had managed to train mining enough to actually begin mining (though i do not understand the training system i may have been able to before without knowing)
Anyway i have uni at 9:30am the next day so i opt to use my g15 keyboard to loop 'return, up, return, wait, then move a little, repeat'. I wake up this morning and have been banned for botting, i guess is should have exected it, i havn't played many RPGS but when i bought this keyboard i read around that its macro utility was frowned upon in online games.
Anyway, apart from that mishap i had read through the guidelines, remained in character even though i have never roleplayed before, grit my teeth through mishaps like falling through the floor when hopping to another zone and ending up lost in the death realm again.
Again, its probably my own fault that i was misinformed as to the rules, but after reading most of the new player guide i just wanted to get stuck in, the use of my g15 macro was not a knowing, malicious act, and i have been banned for 30 days as a result after having only played for a day.
This is probably the wrong place to post this but again i have not played many RPGs nor been active on forums before, just hoping the right person sees this and considers reversing the decision safe in the knowledge that i now know that using macros is not allowed and would not repeat the mistake.
My username is paulhodkinsonw4 @ hotmail . com
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Players Policy - Must Read! (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21538.0)
You may not create "bots" or automation programs with the purpose of profiteering or advancing unattended.
The best you can do now is to join the #planeshift-gmtalk IRC channel on irc.freenode.com and talk to GMs.
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Hello,
Your initial concerns about using the keyboard in this manner were dead on-target. Leaving your character to work while you are not around is not allowed, and this is mentioned in the Player Policy (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21538.0).
Even though you show regret at using this tactic, we cannot let the ban slide. Consider it a hard lesson. If you would like to return after the ban expires to explore the game as you are meant to, you will be more than welcome. You are also welcome to remain on the forums and familiarize yourself with the community (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7151/pleasedhc3.gif)
[ --GM Bakuun ]
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Bad luck for you, you were banned for a good reason.
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That is a shame, i initially downloaded planeshift for research into a uni project i am doing which involves concept development for an MMO (after it was reccomended to me by an aqaintance who eats sleeps and breathese opensource), despite actually enjoying the game this remains the focus. Being on the standard student wage (i.e. nothing) it is not an option for me to pay a monthly fee for said research. I wouldn't know where to start about finding an allternative, but if the ban must remain, i am open to suggestions if anyone is willing to give them.
The project includes some content development but the focus is concept, the game itself put as simply as it can be is a cross between necromunda and gorkamorka (tabletop), most of the game rules are based on DnD but the actual combat is realtime and controlled by the user. I have allready gone partway to moddeling some of the vehicles i intend to include to cover the content development criteria (if you are interested most of these are being put here http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/paulhodkinsonw4/ for friends to check out, most of the stuff on that album is clutter but im sure it is obviouse which pictures apply). The huge problem i have is familiarising myself with MMOs, i have played RPGs such as fallout, NWN and Gothic 2 but the only MMO i have ever touched is Rubies of Eventide and while the character development system is intruiging from a mathematicians perspective the game in general is wrong for my requirements.
The first phase of the project is to be handed in next week, and while i can put together some basic concept art and models in a very short time i just dont have the background to develop the concept of the game itself. I will still credit Planeshift as an influence but i was hoping to get some deeper experience playing an MMO (to which i can attribute my risktaking with respect to looping input commands)
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Hello,
Your initial concerns about using the keyboard in this manner were dead on-target. Leaving your character to work while you are not around is not allowed, and this is mentioned in the Player Policy (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21538.0).
Even though you show regret at using this tactic, we cannot let the ban slide. Consider it a hard lesson. If you would like to return after the ban expires to explore the game as you are meant to, you will be more than welcome. You are also welcome to remain on the forums and familiarize yourself with the community (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7151/pleasedhc3.gif)
[ --GM Bakuun ]
That's just wrong. :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
So he made a mistake, He is NEW, he didn't know it was against the rules.
So you say he broke the rules, we are all in agreement there, but did he do it purposefully?
Would the punishment of a person who did this purposefully also be 30 days ban?
I mean it was an accident, and yet he gets a MONTH ban. Some may argue this isn't a long time, then i'd like those same people to stay off these forums for a month and see how short it is.
I say, he deserved a 2 day ban, 3 day at most.
This 1 month thing for a New player who accidently broke the rules is just unfair :thumbdown:.
And if nothing is done to fix this problem and help mitigate his punishment, then i hope the same mercy is shown upon you next time you accidently break a rule and recieve an unfair punishment.
~~Datruth
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Just becuase one is new, is no excuse for not knowing the rules.
Say I go to Europe where they drive on the left side of the street. Just becuase I was new there and I start driving on the right side of the street since that's what i'm used to, doesn't mean that I shouldn't get punished for killing someone when I crash into them becuase I was driving on the wrong side of the street.
Another theory I'd like to throw out there for ponderance. What if he really isn't just an older player, who has been around awhile, who knows the no botting rule, who is simply lying about being new, to try and win the simpathy vote?
30 days isn't very long for a game that's in alpha developement anyways.
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You are right i should have read the rules, consider though that i am not only new to planshift but MMOs also. Anyway i have conceded the point, theres no need to throw accusations of deciet at me (and i assure you this is not the case). I have been throwin into gaming at the deep end as a result of my choice of course at uni, which has a heavy focus on gaming, game industry history and game development, still, please accept my apology and know that i bear no ill will.
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Hi Gerlon, I didn't mean any personal attack by my post towards you or anyone. It was simply a response to DaTruth's ,hmm, what's a good word to use, umm, opinion I guess. I apologise if you thought I was.
I was just trying to give possible examples of why it was handled as it was, not trying to imply that you personaly were lying about things. And as a side note, hope your project goes well for you. I always try to see every experience as a gain, so perhaps you can use this banning as a positive towards part of your research, say on what game developers do to make the game fair to all. (in this case by having rules in place that prohibit "botting".) Since you mentioned you're doing research on game developement, this would tie in with that, at least I feel it would. How game rules evolve/develope to make the game fair to everyone that plays. All part of the game developement process.
:)
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Gerlon, why not giving us more details about your project.
There are here a lot of people who experienced not only PS but a lot of MMO-anything
MMORPG, MMO-hack&slash...
What aspect of the game concept do you have to explore? the reasons pple join, what they seek in a mmo? how to balance between players? PvP?...
the wishlist (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?board=11.0) is full of players desires, complementary and contradictory. And many are referencing to features seen in other MMOs and other RPGs.
PS is not the only game using the acronym "MMORPG". PS is unique, maybe should you base your project on the generaly implemented rather than on a too specific project not yet complete.
A quick websearch will sure return you more than a few MMORPGs that won't cost you anything.
After trying other games you'll enjoy PS even more :)
The more details you give us, the more we can help you.
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That's pretty harsh and some bad luck for you too. I can't really blame GMs for doing their job and actually spotting someone botting. That's actually great that they were able to do that because botting is clearly cheating. But I also feel bad for you, since you came out publically and apologized. Most botters are probably aware that they can be banned and will attempt their botting again, without any remorse.
Although it's not an excuse that you didn't read the guides and rules, it's understandable that many new players are so excited about the game that they're eager to jump right in and start playing rather than read a lot of text. You don't have an excuse but you certainly have a reason for your actions.
Perhaps a GM who banned you can compromise and reduce your ban in half, down to 15 days. But if not, I recommend that you always look for something positive in any situation. Take that time to read every guide, numerous forum posts, and plan out how you want to build your character. For example, are you sure that the race you picked is the one for you? Same with your job and skills. Take some time off to create one of the best looking signatures for yourself on this forum, and write an interesting character background/story for RP subforum here. Check the Guilds forum to see if there are any that you'd personally like to be in.
Good luck. :)
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[offtopic]
Say I go to Europe where they drive on the left side of the street.
Dude, we drive on the right side of the street, like all sane people.
It's only those weird Brittains who drive on the wrong side ;)
[/offtopic]
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That's just wrong.
So he made a mistake, He is NEW, he didn't know it was against the rules.
~~Datruth
No it isn't wrong and thats just your opinion. Rules are rules. If you change the rules for one, then you have to do it for all. Besides Gerlon seems to understand. He isn't making a huge issue out of it and is only trying to fix the problem. You aren't trying to fix, you are only stating the obvious and complaining ..... again. And that would be the pattern you wondered about that was mentioned in another thread.
Sorry to hear about your bad luck Gerlon. Witchking pretty much said what I had on my mind about this topic, so I second the post. I hope that your able to finish your project somehow. I also hope that this didn't sour your out look on planehsift. We were just doing our job. Good luck to you.
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Botted => banned
case closed.
Let's hear what he needs from us for his project and help him.
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The project is largely based on necromunda (tabletop), the playerbase is split into Guilds, factions and hired guns (i have very specific rules on this but it does not have much to do with the game concept in general). Guilds/factions battle over territories, each territory giving a passive or practical bonus (eg power plant, market etc), again the rules go into specifics, such as a territory owned by a guild cannot be attacked by a faction that is not warring with said guild. Combat is largely based around vehicles, and would employ a battle system similar to battlefield 2, but also rely heavily on player attributes and unlocks (equipment etc). Specifics on vehicle ownership to be decided however thje basic idea is an individual cannot own a battlevehicle, instead guilds/factions have vehicle pools which are depletable.
The setting of the game is post apocalyptic, mad max style world.
I am quite interested in the concept of interfaction/guild combat i know that world of warcaft has a faction system but i understand it is limited to 2 factions, my concept is an extremely complicated multifaction system (think Galactic Civilisations, with its treaty system).
Just ideas floating around at the moment
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Rules are meant to be broken.
Actually, they're not, they're meant to keep idiots from creating chaos. But, Gerlon, you're surely not an idiot. You're intelligent, and it was just a simple mistake. 30 day ban, 1 month, is a very long time to me, actually. It seems like scamming someone out of a trade would deserve more of a ban than what he did. He didn't hurt anyone, he just didn't want to spend his entire day fighting rats. Now, a few easier solutions would be to make rats give more PP, or just unban him and let him continue researching. Bans are punishments, discipline, to teach you what to do and what not to do. He knows what he did wrong, so keeping that punishment in place is pointless. Just help him out with his research, let him enjoy the game. He's already learned the lesson, so there's absolutely no point.
You said you had to turn in this project sometime next week, right? Well, that doesn't leave much time. By 30 days he's already screwed. Let him get a little background research in and whatever, don't ban a smart person like him and let some retard run around in game spamming "give me money."
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The case is closed. Whether someone regrets making the mistake or no longer cares, we have very clear rules and the player already had concerns with this tactic before using it. The ban will not be lessened. This is not the only free fantasy MMORPG in the world, and I would not consider it the holy grail for a research project. Should a list of MMO's in a similar category be needed, I will be more than glad to retrieve one.
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An interresting concept based on conquest.
let's focus on the differences between a MMO and tabletop game.
In a table top, the party starts with each player starting at the same time with defined ressources, and all of them tries to conquer until he owns the whole playfield. Game Over.
In a MMO the world is persistent and shared (among guilds and maybe the server for unclaimed lands in your case) but players are joining an leaving at anytime. This is why the word "newbie" was created :)
There is also no definite "game over" otherwise it's useless to join the game near the end, when almost all the world in claimed. If a guild already owns 90% of the ressources, what's the point for a newcomer to join a guild on the losing side.
To prevent that you need to provide each guild different strengths and weaknesses. Each guild/faction must have different limitations so world domination can be endangered at anytime. Thus the group holding a place will always have a reason to stay, at least to protect it.
To please many player you must provide various ways to play (offensive, defensive, construction, destruction, ...)
Over time the game can use passing chars that play until they don't have anything more to do, or provide new challenges for each stage in the evolution of chars. The second is not the easiest thing to do. But it helps to build stable communities.
On how to renew the challenges...I leave it up to you :)
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Necromunda does have some persistant aspects to it, after battles based on the outcome of the battle and various dice rolls the player will gain weapons and territories, and each soldier is a distinct individual with stats etc though it has been such a long time since i played i cannot remember much of the rules. The idea of this game is there will still be the guy controlling the army but each soldier will be player controlled, i havn't decided whether to employ a commander system such as in BF2 (basicly an RTS system).
I will explain the faction/guild system briefly.... There are many factions within the game, player may join or leave factions but factions may not be created by players, a faction will have political systems within and will be controlled by a player who rises to the leader position. On the other hand there are also guilds, guilds may be affiliated, allied or against each faction respectively (though an affiliated guild has no control over its relations with other factions or the affiliates of thoes factions), or they may be neutral. A neutral or allied guild can still be at war with any faction however its relations with any 1 faction will not affect its relations with another. An allied guild will recieve various passive and practical bonuses, and an affiliated guild will recieve these boneses but moreso, a neutral guild will recieve no bonuses from faction relations.
Since guilds (and indeed players) are able to change thier affiliations/alliances at the drop of a hat the game world would be politically volotile.
I have mulled over a sort of end game scenario (which will not actually end the game). An objective f you will... If a faction (including its affiliate guilds) takes control of the entire world then the entire faction system is replaced by the guilds that are part of the controlling faction, the game will allow each guild to create a faction (the guildleader will be presented with a faction creation screen) and the game will continue from that point with each faction contrlling the territory that they controlled as a guild just before the endgame scenario, with each new faction being allied with eachother. The Faction that won the game will retain territories that belonged to it but not that belonged to its affiliated guilds, though now it will take a passive bonus from each territory that is controlled by its allied factions... This faction could be seen as the ruling faction (and indeed the game would have started with a ruling faction).
Each faction that had 'lost' the game, would become outlawed... Players/guilds may leave or remain part of them, and they would become pirates of sorts.
Hired guns are completely neutral players, they will be limited to infantry (or non combat) roles and will have no faction relations whatsover. They may fight for any guild or faction at any time for pay.
I have not been able to determine how exaxtly the combat would work, it may be a bad thing (or indeed a good thing) if a guild could just walk into a territory and take it simply because the controlling guildmembers are all asleep?
The rules are a little shaky, and as you can see i am trying to build the game around a rules system instead of vice versa. I think from that description you can see what the strong and weak points of my knowledge on MMOs are.
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Rules are meant to be broken.
Actually, they're not, they're meant to keep idiots from creating chaos. But, Gerlon, you're surely not an idiot. You're intelligent, and it was just a simple mistake. 30 day ban, 1 month, is a very long time to me, actually. It seems like scamming someone out of a trade would deserve more of a ban than what he did. He didn't hurt anyone, he just didn't want to spend his entire day fighting rats. Now, a few easier solutions would be to make rats give more PP, or just unban him and let him continue researching. Bans are punishments, discipline, to teach you what to do and what not to do. He knows what he did wrong, so keeping that punishment in place is pointless. Just help him out with his research, let him enjoy the game. He's already learned the lesson, so there's absolutely no point.
You said you had to turn in this project sometime next week, right? Well, that doesn't leave much time. By 30 days he's already screwed. Let him get a little background research in and whatever, don't ban a smart person like him and let some retard run around in game spamming "give me money."
Finally, someone else that is merciful, thank you suno, atleast someone else in here has a heart.
Oh and you can't reason with the Gm's or Devs, they are obviously not humans with the ability to reason.
They are robots that follow strict rules in a strict world that is never changing and always static.
Kinda like the matrix. ;)
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Oh wait, they actually are people? They are very smart?
Wait? They ARN'T ROBOTS!
They have feelings?
Oh My God.
Then what the hell happened here ;D :D
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Seriously, there are alot of mitigating factors here:
1) He didn't do this intentionally
2) He is new
3) He regrets what he's done and will never do it again.
4) He has a research project and can't afford to be banned for 30 days.
5) A 30 day ban is way too severe for this kind of accidental infracture.
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But hey, don't listen to me, go back to those rules, and only break them when they affect you.
Have a nice day. Hope your concience doesn't bother you.
oh and one more thing, Having feelings and mercy towards people doesn't make you more powerfull, but it sure let's you sleep better at night.
~~Datruth
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1) He didn't do this intentionally
2) He is new
3) He regrets what he's done and will never do it again.
4) He has a research project and can't afford to be banned for 30 days.
5) A 30 day ban is way too severe for this kind of accidental infracture.
1) He accidentaly scripted the whole mining sequence? You underestimate him. As you underestimate the ability of anyone to find excuses when caught with the fingers in jam.
2) How long is someone supposed to cheat before you would consider him old enough?
3) He regrets even more every single day he can't join.
4) I don't see how hard you tried to help him with this post. And if you know his teachers to confirm he has actualy a project due soon, contact them and speak for him. You should have met him ingame and mentioned that being AFK while bot mining is not the best way to study the MMO infrastructure.
5) A 30 day ban was used against other bot miners, it would be unfair to them to punish them and not him.
As a conclusion, I must say that I sleep much better when I know that people playing the game don't have to compete with bots.
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I think he needed the gold for his project, this could have been handled better though, by asking soemone for the money, or get help from the community on this.
when I spoke to him before he got banned he didn't seem like a bad person, although I agree... why not lift the ban till his research is done, then put down the rest of the ban? That would be kinda fair to everyone... he still get's his ban and he get's his research done... and this could be a valuable guy.
Now imagine that he just thought "screw planeshift, I'm researching runescape" what kind of disaster would taht be?
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1) He didn't do this intentionally
2) He is new
3) He regrets what he's done and will never do it again.
4) He has a research project and can't afford to be banned for 30 days.
5) A 30 day ban is way too severe for this kind of accidental infracture.
1) He accidentaly scripted the whole mining sequence? You underestimate him. As you underestimate the ability of anyone to find excuses when caught with the fingers in jam.
2) How long is someone supposed to cheat before you would consider him old enough?
3) He regrets even more every single day he can't join.
4) I don't see how hard you tried to help him with this post. And if you know his teachers to confirm he has actualy a project due soon, contact them and speak for him. You should have met him ingame and mentioned that being AFK while bot mining is not the best way to study the MMO infrastructure.
5) A 30 day ban was used against other bot miners, it would be unfair to them to punish them and not him.
As a conclusion, I must say that I sleep much better when I know that people playing the game don't have to compete with bots.
Why do you assume the worst in people?
1) You assume he lied about everything he said.
2) You assume he did this on purpose and got caught.
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What evidence do you have to prove the following?
I'll answer that for you, NONE.
You always believe what people tell you untill they give you a reason not to.
He hasn't lied to us before and he has no record of that.
Even PEACER, a well respected member of Planeshift, says he was a good person and that his ban should be moved to a later date.
If I use your form of logic, everything you just said was a Lie, he didn't use Bot's, you forced him to say that, and All this is is an eleborate scam to screw with the players.
See how that works?
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In closing I agree with Peacer, move his banning to a later date, maybe next week, and continue it from that day.
~~Datruth
p.s: 2) How long is someone supposed to cheat before you would consider him old enough?
The whole point of me mentioning he was New was saying that he could have easily made this mistake on accident without knowing the rules.
No one is expected to know all the rules the first week they play.
So i say give people a 2 or 3 week window, after that hold them to Full Liability if they commit an offense.
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What proof do we have he cheated?
He was caught.
What proof do you have someone was actualy banned and that it's not a conspiracy from GMs to discourage the ones tempted to cheat?
I'll answer that for you: You have NONE.
Rules are as easy to find, to read and to agree with. Easier than it is to download the client. It's even faster to read them than to download, install, and update.
I don't assume the worst of people, I assume the best.
I assume people are reading about what they download and run on their computer. I assume that werever he downloaded the client, he had to create an account on the website where all the needed infos are linked.
Something you probably missed: He agreed to be dealt with like everyone else. His only request was for help in his project. If you could stop being his advocate when he is able to defend himself, you would read his last post and give constructive ideas and comments.
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What's going on here?
The guy used a script and got banned, it's as easy as that :sleeping:
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What's going on here?
The guy used a script and got banned, it's as easy as that :sleeping:
lol...What's going on here is simple. Datruth is being overly dramatic again. He doesn't seem to understand that if we break the rules for one then we would have to do it for everyone. He doesn't understand that the GM's were just doing their job in keeping planeshift clear of bots, and obviously doesn't appreciate it. He is expressing that we should make exceptions because he doesn't believe the rules Talad has set down for us Gm's to follow are good enough.
ThomPhoenix ... I wish it were easy. :'(
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One man drives a car. He has just gotten it and even though he heard the technical rules he does not entirely understand the practical rules. He gets distracted and hits an old man crossing the road. It is proven that it was accidental, and he regrets it.
Another man has planned for a long time to kill an old man, and soon does so. He openly admits the murder and does not regret it.
Both men are killers that deserve to be punished. But do an accident and a long planned murder deserve the same punishment? True the crime is not as great in the situation we face now, but the answer to the question is the same.
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@datruth: It's not because he's new he should get that ban lifted... it's to give him a chance with his project.
However I think It's up to talad whether someone should be able to have modifications in the rules. As where I stand I think hadfael has a point in what he says about asking the teachers first and get a message from them. I really don't think there's any need for depth discussion here...
A suggestion to gerlon, compile your own server, you can get help from #planeshift-build on irc.freenode.net :)
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I gave what I felt was a warning in this thread. You've chosen to ignore it and continue arguing publicly over a final decision. If you want to discuss GM decisions and GM actions, you contact us privately and explain how you feel. Arguing and making us seem like monsters here when we are doing our job sure won't help your case.
Botted ==> Banned
Case. Closed. I will be removing posts from now on that continue poking this dead horse. We have rules, and a gamer failed to follow them. There are no "accidents" here.