PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: eldoth_terevan on November 03, 2006, 04:58:22 pm
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I did a brief forum search and did not see anything like this. Sorry if I am reposting something already discussed, but I was having to listen to someone who was in the arena describing at length about another character stealing their kill, and I thought of this and wanted to mention it.
Two players are attempting to attack a rogue. Right now, one player engages the rogue in combat, and the other gets the message "You must be grouped with...". This of course leads to many IG rows between players, which become time wasted for other players and GMs when it gets heated.
Could the default action for the player who attacks slowest somehow be an ASSIST? This would mean that -- for one round at least -- the person who lost the draw would be helping the opposing player. I think that it might take the fun out of players harassing each other over mobs, and the rest of us having to listen to the arguments. Thank you.
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I like this idea but the problem would be the experience. Would the first player loose any? When you think about it he should because he didn't slay the mob by himself and that means there will be people assisting random people they don't even know for pp and I'm sure the first attacker wouldn't want to just give away his.
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I did a brief forum search and did not see anything like this. Sorry if I am reposting something already discussed, but I was having to listen to someone who was in the arena describing at length about another character stealing their kill, and I thought of this and wanted to mention it.
Two players are attempting to attack a rogue. Right now, one player engages the rogue in combat, and the other gets the message "You must be grouped with...". This of course leads to many IG rows between players, which become time wasted for other players and GMs when it gets heated.
Could the default action for the player who attacks slowest somehow be an ASSIST? This would mean that -- for one round at least -- the person who lost the draw would be helping the opposing player. I think that it might take the fun out of players harassing each other over mobs, and the rest of us having to listen to the arguments. Thank you.
As assist function like the one you describe would simply open the door to kill stealing. Imagine if anyone could just walk up to your mob and "assist" you in it. My guess is that they'll be the most interested in "assisting" you to carry the loot.
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I like the idea that whenever two people attack the same critter it duplicates itself and if they continue it does too. Of course I wouldn't suggest this be implimented but it would be amusing to see.
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IF the players group, what you have suggested is exactly what happens.
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IF the players group, what you have suggested is exactly what happens.
Right. Basically, he's saying that players should automatically be grouped with one another should they attack the same NPC.
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Automatically being grouped because you go for the same NPC? I don't think that will go over very well with alot of planeshifters. I don't automatically want to group with anyone when I play unless I decide to. I want choice. Being grouped automatically is taking away choice.
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I don't think he ment automaticly grouped. He said for one round at least.
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There are differences: no group channel and no connection should one or other walk away. The way mob claiming is currently implimented is not great. For one thing a claim should not expire before a second spell attack can be made, this puts wizards at a great disadvantage because it generally takes longer to attack and kill a monster with magic. Now it might be fair to say that wizards should not be using base levels spells for monsters mid level fighters require to use magic weapons to fight. I can't say for sure because I don't know how effective these spells might be at the upper levels of way expertise. I think these base spells should have a cap on their effectiveness as they are the easiest to get the glyphs for: weak glyphs should be common and the more powerful ones less so. There just isn't a great deal of magic implimented yet (more than I have managed to find).
Guess I'm straying from the topic again so I will let it go at that.
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what if you are attacking a particularly hardcore rogue who you have lowered his health to about 30 percent and try to heal yourself using crystal way and hten some other player comes up and takes the rogue even if you standing right in front of the rogue...and then you now cant take it because you hae to be "grouped"
is that a killsteal? cause it gets me reeeeaaallly p'oed.. >:(
sorry, but other players should have more consideration of one another to not do this.
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I agree and I hope I haven't been one of those although it is sometimes hard to tell. This goes along with what I was saying. It seems odd to me that spellcasting takes so long when the effect is relatively weak. I wonder when we can expect items which act as spell effect multipliers such as are implimented with "magic" or quality weapons. Perhaps though this is not in the cards except in the way of more powerful glyphs/spell combinations. Another problem with spellcasting is that it is not automated the same as weapon attack so that one casting is automatically followed by the next but rather the mage must manually cast the next spell which adds to the casting time.
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1. Yes, fighters get priority over magic users when claiming mobs. HOWEVER, the only time this is ever an issues is when people are camping mobs, such as in the arena! Camping is a OOC activity and I hope that it's eliminated in the future.
2.@Kalika: If it's taking you forever to kill a rogue, and the rogue is so tough that you can't kill it without spending a considerable amount of time and energy on healing, then maybe you shouldn't be attacking the rogue. Instead, you should attack things at the level of your character and let the stronger character attack the stronger mobs.
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the rogue is so tough that you can't kill it without spending a considerable amount of time and energy on healing, then maybe you shouldn't be attacking the rogue. Instead, you should attack things at the level of your character and let the stronger character attack the stronger mobs.
There is a problem with this which I refered to in my previous post. With enough pots and 2 /10 weapons an inexperienced fighter can fight outside his weight class. Why should it, theoretically, be different for mages?
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the rogue is so tough that you can't kill it without spending a considerable amount of time and energy on healing, then maybe you shouldn't be attacking the rogue. Instead, you should attack things at the level of your character and let the stronger character attack the stronger mobs.
There is a problem with this which I refered to in my previous post. With enough pots and 2 /10 weapons an inexperienced fighter can fight outside his weight class. Why should it, theoretically, be different for mages?
They're going to remove the ability to drink large amounts of potions during a battle, and casting a spell leaves you vulnerable. Casting a healing spell on yourself while someone is trying to kill you with a big sword or axe should create a problem for you. You're basically running away from the mob. And IMO, if you run away from it, then it's fair game for everyone else.
Really, healing mages and clerics should be supporting magic users for a group. It used to be that we would always team up to fight the rogues, ulbernaughts, and briggands. Now, it seems like almost no one fights as part of a group. If you can heal yourself easily during a battle, then that's even less motivation for people to work together.
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Ah. I see, the assist function duplicates the behavior as it would be if the players were grouped. Thank you akaye and zanzi. I was thinking then of it slightly different. Where the original player retained the rights to the combat and the kill, but the second player would end up inadvertently assisting then without the group benefits of experience or loot sharing. So you would help kill, but unless you explicitly grouped with them... no experience or loot.
I was just thinking of it as a "soft" resolution for these types of arguments, one that would discourage two players standing around trying to take a mob by who is quickest and insulting one another over it. I myself have had players repeat to me in game that KSing is a "bannable" offense... but that seems strange to me since nobody can be said to own a rogue, and it is usually coming from someone who wants the mobs. Funny that someone who posted here was orginally the one that was referenced by the player speaking to me from the arena... last night.
I see this thread spinning into all sorts of unrelated stuff... please lock if you wish Karyuu. Also, I think that the dynamic spawn system when implemented will take care of much of this sort of behavior. So... Soon(tm) we will have less arguments.
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So you would help kill, but unless you explicitly grouped with them... no experience or loot.
That... changes things. People only attack mobs to get loot and experience, so I don't see how this would solve anything.
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2.@Kalika: If it's taking you forever to kill a rogue, and the rogue is so tough that you can't kill it without spending a considerable amount of time and energy on healing, then maybe you shouldn't be attacking the rogue. Instead, you should attack things at the level of your character and let the stronger character attack the stronger mobs.
i understand that perfectly...but think of this...you have fought the rogue down to 30 percent of his health and you are at 25 percent, you start to walk around the rogue so you can cast life infusion maybe about twice, and im saying WALK AROUND as in you are still within an attack zone of the target, not running away...my problem however, are those that see that the rogue is at 30 percent and take advantage of your healing time...im not saying that you should be given priority if your health is at 10 percent and the rogue is at 80...but that if you just need the few boosts of magic it is unfair that another player should come along adn steal it...its a little inconsiderate of the other person
edit-@ Eldoth, sorry if i deviated from your original topic...it wasnt my intention
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That... changes things. People only attack mobs to get loot and experience, so I don't see how this would solve anything.
EXACTLY, Zanzibar! That is the whole point! Jeesh. Think about it. S'okay Kalika, you sweetie... all is good.
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2.@Kalika: If it's taking you forever to kill a rogue, and the rogue is so tough that you can't kill it without spending a considerable amount of time and energy on healing, then maybe you shouldn't be attacking the rogue. Instead, you should attack things at the level of your character and let the stronger character attack the stronger mobs.
i understand that perfectly...but think of this...you have fought the rogue down to 30 percent of his health and you are at 25 percent, you start to walk around the rogue so you can cast life infusion maybe about twice, and im saying WALK AROUND as in you are still within an attack zone of the target, not running away...my problem however, are those that see that the rogue is at 30 percent and take advantage of your healing time...im not saying that you should be given priority if your health is at 10 percent and the rogue is at 80...but that if you just need the few boosts of magic it is unfair that another player should come along adn steal it...its a little inconsiderate of the other person
edit-@ Eldoth, sorry if i deviated from your original topic...it wasnt my intention
So you want to run away from the fight so you can have a chance to heal? You're still running away from it, and therefore I see no reason why someone else shouldn't be allowed to step in.
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who said anything about running? i thought i specifically siad not running...i said youre standing right NEXT to him...as in less than a fot away...attacking distance...
oi
nevermind...
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who said anything about running? i thought i specifically siad not running...i said youre standing right NEXT to him...as in less than a fot away...attacking distance...
oi
nevermind...
Oh. If you're able to survive playing around like that, why not just kill him?
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becase its nice to have that extra bit of health...if you had read what i wrote i said "heal maybe once or twice" its no fun to die when youre trget is at 3 percent helath left...
and im not saying its WRONG
im saying that it is awfully inconsiderate of others to take the kill when the npc is at such a ow health (example 30 percent when you are at 25 percent..therefore the spellcasting)
i say stand clsoe to the rogue because it doesnt take an insanely long time to heal...its jsut that there is those few seconds that ive had many players run up and kil a rogue that i had been trying to kill..and i was sooo close...but i stopped to cast a spell (which in all honesty what good are they for if you cant use them?) and lost what i think im jsutified in calling "my kill"
but anywho i guess some of us are lucky to not have experienced such things and can then consider people like me whiny...whatev
:flowers:
Edit: im done spamming...sorrys, ive made my point adn regardless of whether anyone understands...its pointless and irritating to debate it further, i dont like to post things for no reason, especially when the topic starter has already expressed his concerns... anwyho peace
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... In combat, don't you lose more health than you gain by taking the time to cast a heal spell? I might gain 5% of my HP back by casting life infusion.... but I'll lose way more than 5% of my health in the time it takes me to cast it.
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I would imagine it depends on you skill in your armor and the way, crystal is it? I have very good light armor training and rogues barely touch me.
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Oh. If you're able to survive playing around like that, why not just kill him?
Maybe she likes to toy with the rogue? I used to do that quite abit when i didn't have the strength to take on bigger prey. In my eyes, in character I was being tactful and wearing down the creature so that I could eventually take him down. That isn't running away. If I do the work, I think it is my right to have the kill.
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Oh. If you're able to survive playing around like that, why not just kill him?
Maybe she likes to toy with the rogue? I used to do that quite abit when i didn't have the strength to take on bigger prey. In my eyes, in character I was being tactful and wearing down the creature so that I could eventually take him down. That isn't running away. If I do the work, I think it is my right to have the kill.
YES this is what im talking about...thank youse
(and fyi i dont do this currently..but i see it happen adn it used ot happen to me...you could at least wait til the person dies or the rogue respawns...its jsut corteous)
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Oh. If you're able to survive playing around like that, why not just kill him?
Maybe she likes to toy with the rogue? I used to do that quite abit when i didn't have the strength to take on bigger prey. In my eyes, in character I was being tactful and wearing down the creature so that I could eventually take him down. That isn't running away. If I do the work, I think it is my right to have the kill.
If you're playing with it... then why get upset if someone else kills it? They're a scarce resource, afterall.
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One idea that comes to mind for me is an option for a person to 'watch' other people battle and then get some secondhand experience from that. Essentially learning by examining how other people engage in combat without having to do battle yourself. The player actually doing battle would not lose anything at all, they would get the exact same amount of XP as if they had fought alone. But the person watching would get a little XP by watching the battle (maybe like 1/10th of the normal XP value).
It would basically be like a person watching life-action footage of combat or spellcasting or whatever. You can learn from that to provide the experience to train your own skills later.
Some people may say that this would encourage powerleveling... or at the very least a bunch of people parking next to a high-level monsters spawn point and then watching other people fight it. Which actually could provide a little bit of atmosphere... all those seats (or stairs or whatever) in the Arena might actually have people in them if there was a reason for people to sit there. Let people sit back, watch the combat, and get a little experience for free. People could chat and roleplay while watching the fights if those fights could actually be exciting.
Plus, letting people get experience through watching could help make healers a bit more practical in the game. Right now, I don't think a dedicated healer can get any experience unless they actually help kill a monster or mine ore or whatever. If a healer assists a fighter by healing them. They could watch the combat and get experiece from that. It shouldn't hurt the fighter in any way.
Another problem is, that the whole concept of actual experience is really getting weird in games like this. Its almost treating experience like a resource that you can only get by killing animals. If instead experience was rewarded for each action in battle (such as each strike of the sword) then kill stealing would not really effect people as much. If you bring a monster down to 3% and somebody swoops in and kills it, you should have already gotten all the experience from that previous 97%. He might get the XP from that 3%... but who cares? You already got your XP and they can't steal that from you.
There is already the code that lets people gain practice points for each combat action (like attacking with swords or axes or melee combat) a little change in the code should be able to let people get their experience points from actions instead of just from killing monsters.
So, make it practically impossible for a person to steal experience from a person who worked hard to get it... then create a way for people to gain experience by just watching the combat. Killstealing would not only be difficult to pull off, but it would be pretty unecessary.
As for the loot... eh not sure how to deal with that.
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If you're playing with it... then why get upset if someone else kills it? They're a scarce resource, afterall.
Work with me zanzibar *zorbels points to her sentence* not playing with it ......
"in character I was being tactful and wearing down the creature so that I could eventually take him down"
Meaning taking on bigger prey and having to take the time to do it in a tactful way. If I spend an hour because I am a weak character chasing around a rogue hitting it with my magic and giving it my all in combat it is only fair that I should receive the reward of the pp, loot and experience.
These races in planeshift are not uncivilised or in a depression so there is no excuse for bad manners [even in roleplay, if a person wants to play a robber fine take a kill but don't stand there and keep taking it .. that is just bad roleplay]. There is plenty of game to hunt. I don't understand where you get the info that they are a scarce resource. I even would go as far as to say the gaurds could and might possibly arrest a person for stealing someone elses game that they were hunting [If your roleplaying]. The time it takes for my character to weaken this creature so I could kill it would be enough for me to be upset if someone came along and killed it just because and kept doing it. I don't understand why that isn't clear to you?
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I know that it's annoying, and I know why it bothers you, I just think that if you want to claim absolute ownership over a particular mob you're going to have to make a stronger case.
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A few thoughts:
NPCs have or used to have endurance, you could wear that out completely in full defensive stance and then attack them without being hit in bloody stance. I used that with magic. Mind you some mobs do have a lot of endurance :P
The speed of the weapon that you use is supposed to be the time it takes for you to pull back and swing the thing, which means the mob will see someone start to attack first - the server will receive one message before the other. A possible solution is to have the mob lock on to the first attacker. This means that mages and players with slow weapons will still have a chance to attack as well. From the mob's persepective, the first person to attack you would be the immediate threat and so you'd go after them and block/dodge/stay out of range of other assailants. If the player runs out of range say 10 m, the mob should loose interest and return to their spot or whatever they were doing, like patrolling an area. Groups could be treated as one assailant with the mob attacking the first attacker, and perhaps skilled mobs like tough gladiators being able to focus on multiple players.
I dunno, i'd tend to agree with Zorbels here:These races in planeshift are not uncivilised or in a depression so there is no excuse for bad manners
If you're in the arena then chances are you are a warrior in for training. Its basic and common respect for a warrior to let another finish his training without interfering! The same goes for hunters, you don't intentionally steal game, or hog it.
And why do people have to not say anything? Mobs don't move very fast (walk or creep). Run a short distance, hit enter to go to the chat window, type help, hit return to send the message, hit enter again and keep on running. Or if you find yourself doing that often, here's a thought, make a short cut :)
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Really, healing mages and clerics should be supporting magic users for a group. It used to be that we would always team up to fight the rogues, ulbernaughts, and briggands. Now, it seems like almost no one fights as part of a group. If you can heal yourself easily during a battle, then that's even less motivation for people to work together.
While not really on-topic as far as killstealing, this sparked my interest. Perhaps if healing another character (as long as they were below 100% to prevent a PL exploit) awarded some amount of experience, there would be more motivation for a 'healer' or 'supportive' type of character. Eh, just a thought. If there is enough interest, that could warrant a seperate discussion maybe.
More on-topic: I think that sometimes it is hard to gauge if someone needs help. As an example (which I have been faced with a few times), suppose you just happen to come across someone battling (perhaps being chased by) an ulbernaut and you know that you are capable of taking on the creature and are not intending on stealing it from the the other. Faced with this situation, what do you do?:
1. Ask them if they need help, wait for a response, then (if and only if they really do need help) invite to group and wait for them to accept it, then assist them. (This is not always easy in the heat of battle.)
or
2. Do nothing and either continue on your merry way or stay and watch what happens. This decision leads to two possibilites: Either the other one was indeed in trouble and ends up getting killed or escaping, or they were fine and they succeed in killing the creature.
Regardless, there are a lot of possibilities and decisions involved on both sides here.
Now, let's assume the 'assisting' player could go ahead and attack the creature and then received a system message similar to 'You assist <claiming character name> by attacking <creature> without any hope of receiving experience.' Should the first (the 'engaged') player get a choice thru a prompt of whether to allow the 'assisting' player to help them defeat their foe? Could this prompt itself cause the currently engaged player to be distracted enough that their character gets killed? Could this prompt become a new way of spamming another and exploiting a game mechanic? These questions lead to a fundamental rethinking of the entire group/experience/killstealing/spamming mentality.
@Shadow Nose: Very interesting concept about learning by watching 'a master at work'. In a way, it makes a lot of sense that our characters could learn by observing others apply the skills that they have learned. But, the biggest problem would be how to avoid an exploit by differentiating between 'studious observation' and 'being in the general area while AFK for an hour and gaining experience for basically doing nothing at all'. ;D
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It has always puzzled me why EXP is only awarded on killing something. I agree with Mr. Nose on this completely.
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Good discussion. I am too tired to post but I liked reading it. Thanks everybody.
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@Shadow Nose: Very interesting concept about learning by watching 'a master at work'. In a way, it makes a lot of sense that our characters could learn by observing others apply the skills that they have learned. But, the biggest problem would be how to avoid an exploit by differentiating between 'studious observation' and 'being in the general area while AFK for an hour and gaining experience for basically doing nothing at all'. ;D
Well, one sort of idea that comes to mind... have a /watch command that you use to target one specific player character. Then as long as that player is targeted in your little target window (so that the red pattern marker is showing them) then you will get a little stream of XP coming in as you watch that person. If your target is killed or runs away to that you no longer target them then you no longer get that XP.
In theory, if you did something like stand in the arena stands, target one player that is repeatedly fighting one monster, then leave to go get lunch... you MAY be able to get away with constantly getting XP from them. But if that player runs off to go train a skill, stops to let someone else train at the monster, or if he gets killed then you lose sight of him and no longer get any XP from watching him.
I imagine that the idea situation using a /watch command in this manner is to have several people in the stands in the arena watching combatants fighting monsters. The spectators would be getting experience and while still targeting their respective fighters they could be chatting among eachother... roleplaying. If combat gets a bit more exciting and there is a bit more variety among the monsters released it could get pretty interesting. Get experience for PvP battles and then people may have to chose which combatant to 'root' for to get XP... though I may be getting ahead of myself there. I doubt PvP would become a fun arena sport if people have to trudge their way through the DR after every defeat.
Also, a healer could /watch the fighter he is paired with and since he has him targeted he can cast healing or buffing spells on his companion and would still get some XP by watching him in combat (I also agree that a healer should be able to get a little XP for each time they cast a spell to heal someone... heck I would say that even crafters should get a little XP when they make swords or melt iron or whatnot... but that's just me). Though if he ever takes his eyes off the fighter to combat a monster or pick up an item or whatnot, he may have to /watch his friend again to resume getting XP.
I suppose it might help the fighter know what is going on if whenever he gets /watch ed by a player he gets a message saying '<playername> is watching you' or something. Could help let them know is someone is gaining from their combat it that is something that worries them. Or if they think its a complement or if they are just wanting to help a newbie out by getting them a few XP to start out with.
Anyway, a /watch command that lets you get XP from examining a single target in combat would be most effective when you know that the target is going to stay near you and keep fighting. Some people may use this to powerlevel while AFK but it could only really work if the target is alright with that. Someone that doesn't like being watched could just walk away until they get out of sight to sever the 'connection' and then resume fighting or could just go to train their skills elsewhere.
It could also help roleplaying because people might tend to go to certain spots to watch the fighters and then would chat among themselves. They could roleplay while still getting some XP.
It has always puzzled me why EXP is only awarded on killing something. I agree with Mr. Nose on this completely.
Thank you very much. Personally, the leveling systems I liked the best are in Final Fantasy Tactics where each action you made gave you some experience and in The Sims where you can study or train in an area as long as your overall happiness level is good enough. In the Sims you really have to balance out a lot of factors to get the happiness you need to train in the tougher subjects for very long, I think thats why I like that better than the regular kill-stuff method.
Of course, those are different games but still the principle remains. I think that the idea of awarding XP primarily through monster combat is a rather nasty cliche that is perpetuated too much in other MMORPGs... mainly as a timesink to keep people playing to collect subscription money.
Anyway, hope those help.
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hmm if something like the watch command is implemented I would say it would have to work only once per kill. Then you would have to /watch again with the next monster to make sure someone doesn't simply stand next to a spawncamper and leaves for a few hours and still gains exp.
Not that exp is that hard to get but still that might change.
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I completely agree with Shadow and UtM on the experience thing. Now, one does get experience with Mining in game, so the basis for other skills besides combat giving experience is there. Just waiting for more skills, since the only way to get good amounts of it right now is by killing.
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I have one Progression Point. Thats it. Haven't even used it yet! I wish there was some sort of way of gaining Exp. that didn't need strength. I mean Parallo is a weakling! Hes not going to kill things of cart gold from a mine!
Edit:
[off topic] Look, I'm a Hydlaa Resident now! \\o// [/offtopic]
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If there was ever a way of gaining some benefit by watching someone, there probably should be some mental stamina drain associated with it as well like there is with most other activities. This stamina drain itself would place some limit on how much it could be used and enforces the idea that your character is actively studying the actions of another and not just passively observing.
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I have one Progression Point. Thats it. Haven't even used it yet! I wish there was some sort of way of gaining Exp. that didn't need strength. I mean Parallo is a weakling! Hes not going to kill things of cart gold from a mine!
Edit:
[off topic] Look, I'm a Hydlaa Resident now! \\o// [/offtopic]
Get some basic training in melee and light armour. Kill the dwarf mercenary in the arena until you have enough PP to train your first level of crystal way. Get a friend to buy you an arrow glyph and lend you an energy glyph. Then get a friend to get an ulbernaught down to 2% for you, and then finish off the ulbernaught. Bam, 18 progression points each time.
Is it cheating? Yes. But right now, the game mechanics are broken, so I don't feel too bad about it.
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But I'm not a warrior! Why would I train those skills? Lets say I want more charisma how do I get it? Fighting and mining. Thats not very IC for me though.
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hmm if something like the watch command is implemented I would say it would have to work only once per kill. Then you would have to /watch again with the next monster to make sure someone doesn't simply stand next to a spawncamper and leaves for a few hours and still gains exp.
Not that exp is that hard to get but still that might change.
Oh for crying out... listen, I've read a few posts by other Phineas and some other roleplayers and from what I gather there are people out there who actually dislike spending hours and hours of their precious human lifespan pressing a button over and over to get XP for a virtual character (crazy isn't it). This irrational fear of people 'powerleveling' or 'getting something for nothing in a game' is just going to ruin the game for everyone.
I know this would give the potential for people to get XP while AFK... in fact that's kind of the whole point. One of the reasons people killsteal (which was the origional topic, sorry if I hijacked it) is to get some XP without having to whittle away at a monsters XP forever. If instead they can just park near a monster and /watch other fighters level and get some XP for free... then the need to killsteal goes down.
Plus, I don't know about anyone else... but this is a game. It is supposed to be fun, and frankly the combat system is not fun for me.
With the current setup, the game strongly favors grinding and powerleveling. Repeatedly killing monsters over and over for XP. When I wanted to train metallurgy, I had to go fight monsters to get the XP to train it... and got hurt alot because I was built to be a merchant or miner or crafter. I then had to train combat skills so I could fight monsters to get XP to train metallurgy which just doesn't make sense. I essentially reworked my whole character from being a crafter to being a fighter... just because that is the only way to get XP.
And another thing, suppose with the /watch command there is the potential for somebody to get a slow stream of XP (less then what they would get by fighting, about 1/10 or 1/4 depending on how generous the code might be) without having to mindlessly press buttons all day? what would they do in the mean time?
1. chat with their guild or people around them
2. read a book and learn things
3. get work done around the house
And also, if they /watch another character fight while AFK then they would not collect any of the loot from the monster, and therefore would have trouble training skills. They would have to get money from somewhere so they actually would have to spend game time to mine gold or whatever to get the money to pay for training. So really they still would not get 'something for nothing' because XP is pretty much useless in this game unless you have the money to pay for training.
If there was ever a way of gaining some benefit by watching someone, there probably should be some mental stamina drain associated with it as well like there is with most other activities. This stamina drain itself would place some limit on how much it could be used and enforces the idea that your character is actively studying the actions of another and not just passively observing.
This is actually a good idea, while I personally think that the only having 1/10 to 1/4 of the XP getting registered to the watcher and the risk of the target leaving or stopping combat would be enough to add a bit of risk the idea of using the mental stamina to show it involves actual study could be nice.
But I would reccomend that it be used mainly as proof that it is studying or as a decrease in the mental stamina. So if a person has been watching combat for hours their mental stamina would be pretty low (they would still get all the XP due to them, that wouldn't get hurt) but if they tried engaging in an activity that uses mental stamina (like armed combat? not sure if that is mental stamina) immediatly afterwards then they would be caught off-guard and could get in trouble.
So the basic breakdown of a proposed /watch command would go:
-targets one player character for as long as that character is targeted
-as long as the subject is targeted the watcher gets a fraction of their XP gain (1/10 to 1/4) with no loss of XP to the one getting watched
-the watcher's mental stamina would slowly decrease which would add the risk that if they are surprised into armed combat they could get really hurt
-the player could then do a variety of things as long as the subject was still targeted. chat with others in Planeshift or even do something else entirely
-if they leave the game, there is the risk the subject will stop fighting, leave, die or whatever. also monsters may attack the watcher unawares which would all interrupt the watching process.
-even if they get lots of XP due to watching others, they would still need to get money to pay for training.
The way I see it, /watching would primarily work to benefit those who either did not build combat-oriented characters such as crafters or healers, those with new characters who need XP to level up stuff, and people who can think of more exciting things to do than sit around killing monsters.
I imagine combat /watching could actually form a sort of in-game version of entertainment. People go to the arenas to /watch the combat and would actually have an in-game incetive to do so. Popular among the merchant and crafter class who don't have the means to go through combat.
Get some basic training in melee and light armour. Kill the dwarf mercenary in the arena until you have enough PP to train your first level of crystal way. Get a friend to buy you an arrow glyph and lend you an energy glyph. Then get a friend to get an ulbernaught down to 2% for you, and then finish off the ulbernaught. Bam, 18 progression points each time.
Is it cheating? Yes. But right now, the game mechanics are broken, so I don't feel too bad about it.
Actually, if you wanted to help another player level up would you be okay fighting monsters while they /watch and gain XP, even if they were AFK for a long time? Suppose they were to pay you money or steel bars?
I personally think that the reason the mechanics are so broken is that people are afraid of othe people 'powerleveling' and try making features to prevent that.
The problem is that powerleveling by its very nature is the most efficient way to level up. Try to prevent powerleveling and you just make it harder for anyone to advance... its just that the powerlevelers will adapt and keep going while everyone else gets caught in the traps.
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I know that it's annoying, and I know why it bothers you, I just think that if you want to claim absolute ownership over a particular mob you're going to have to make a stronger case.
youre not seeing the point though....i said in one of my previous posts that taking the rogue is not necessarily WRONG but its RUDE...youre not seeing the point that ive been trying to make...no one is claiming absolute "ownership", it just courteous to wait till the other person is finished...
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But I'm not a warrior! Why would I train those skills? Lets say I want more charisma how do I get it? Fighting and mining. Thats not very IC for me though.
I'm afraid that the only answer is to do OOC things until the game is in a later stage of developement.
youre not seeing the point though....i said in one of my previous posts that taking the rogue is not necessarily WRONG but its RUDE...youre not seeing the point that ive been trying to make...no one is claiming absolute "ownership", it just courteous to wait till the other person is finished...
Ok, you find it rude. If someone did it to me though, I'd understand their motivations.
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Well thought out Shadow Nose. I would add to this that you do not get a % of the EXP that the actual attacker is earning, but rather a % of EXP times level of learning that that character already has. Such as, you will get more EXP from watching a master swords-man or smith at their craft, rather then someone like a journeyman. Also, I would say a master would earn no EXP from watching an apprentice.
I had actually had ideas based on this before, but in conjunction with a teaching skill. The teaching skill would activly 'show' anyone watching you, or linked in a teaching group with you, what skills you are using, and therefor improve thiers.
(sorry if that did not make much sense. very tired right now.)
*edit*
To get rid of the want to killsteal, you have to get rid of the need to killsteal.
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I'm not sure a master can learn nothing from a novice. The master may have learned all the known techniques but the novice might instinctively do something different that the master could use to develop new techniques.
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I am sorry Nose but I think your logic has one big flaw.
You say you shouldn't have to need to fight to get experience, but you are proposing that we do get experience from watching FIGHTING. Now is it me or is this seriously OOC if you then use that exp to train skills nothing to do with fighting?
Not saying there shouldn't be other ways to get experience but that reasoning is as OOC as it gets and in my eyes would only worsen the problem and not fix it to be more IC about how you get experience.
Also getting something for nothing ruins the game a lot faster in my opinion then the "paranoia" I apparently seem to have. If you get something for nothing you don't value it anymore. Aquiring something is no longer a challenge and so people would lose interest.
Ofcourse if you are not interested in the system in the first place that isn't a problem to you, but perhaps then you are simply playing the wrong game. Do keep in mind that the system in place right now is obviously still not finished and other ways of gaining experience are scarce but it has already been said more are planned. Don't forget it's a beta at best.
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Well thought out Shadow Nose. I would add to this that you do not get a % of the EXP that the actual attacker is earning, but rather a % of EXP times level of learning that that character already has. Such as, you will get more EXP from watching a master swords-man or smith at their craft, rather then someone like a journeyman. Also, I would say a master would earn no EXP from watching an apprentice.
I had actually had ideas based on this before, but in conjunction with a teaching skill. The teaching skill would activly 'show' anyone watching you, or linked in a teaching group with you, what skills you are using, and therefor improve thiers.
(sorry if that did not make much sense. very tired right now.)
*edit*
To get rid of the want to killsteal, you have to get rid of the need to killsteal.
Yeah that makes sense, a dedicated master to a certain skill would be better able to train people... how... to...
*stops for a moment and thinks*
*looks at Harnquist who trains all those crafting skills*
*looks at all the other NPC trainers who take XP and money to advance skills*
*remembers that once bought, people need to get practice points to level up skills*
*imagines going to dedicated player teachers to get XP to train at NPC trainers*
*remembers that this game is still in beta*
*remembers that the origional post was about killstealing instead of the level system*
You know... this might be better off if it didn't involve experience points within the context of this game. More like if it were to add to the training system (like use up XP to gain in theoretical knowlege on a skill or something... though that adds a differnt question all together).
Using it to gain XP in this game where there is no attainable level cap or even rudimentary limits on how far you can powerlevel would just make it more unplayable than it already is. In fact it would probably encourage people to NOT play it. So in essence I realise my idea was short sited, and will not fit in the context of this game... perhaps in another game but not this one.
As for the killstealing, I think my idea on only rewardin XP for actions taken instead of monsters killed would be a better solution than the /watch thing.
Another problem is, that the whole concept of actual experience is really getting weird in games like this. Its almost treating experience like a resource that you can only get by killing animals. If instead experience was rewarded for each action in battle (such as each strike of the sword) then kill stealing would not really effect people as much. If you bring a monster down to 3% and somebody swoops in and kills it, you should have already gotten all the experience from that previous 97%. He might get the XP from that 3%... but who cares? You already got your XP and they can't steal that from you.
There is already the code that lets people gain practice points for each combat action (like attacking with swords or axes or melee combat) a little change in the code should be able to let people get their experience points from actions instead of just from killing monsters.
might be more of a solution... just limit the amount of damage getting a kill stolen will do. Other than that, I don't think there can be much done for it.
I am sorry Nose but I think your logic has one big flaw.
You say you shouldn't have to need to fight to get experience, but you are proposing that we do get experience from watching FIGHTING. Now is it me or is this seriously OOC if you then use that exp to train skills nothing to do with fighting?
Not saying there shouldn't be other ways to get experience but that reasoning is as OOC as it gets and in my eyes would only worsen the problem and not fix it to be more IC about how you get experience.
Also getting something for nothing ruins the game a lot faster in my opinion then the "paranoia" I apparently seem to have. If you get something for nothing you don't value it anymore. Aquiring something is no longer a challenge and so people would lose interest.
Ofcourse if you are not interested in the system in the first place that isn't a problem to you, but perhaps then you are simply playing the wrong game. Do keep in mind that the system in place right now is obviously still not finished and other ways of gaining experience are scarce but it has already been said more are planned. Don't forget it's a beta at best.
Yeah, I see that now. Actually, I haven't been playing this game as much as I have before, been playing Goonzu Online lately and it has some good solutions to problems.
For killstealing there just are lots and lots of enemies.
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/me rolls in a kegger for all the esteemed people at his thread party and sits back to listen to the conversation, hoping it isn't over yet...
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"Esteemed? I'm honoured!"
/me blushes and realises he probably means the people that made more than four short posts on the topic.
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i may be going a bit :offtopic:
frankly i think he whole system is still :beta: and it will get cardinal changes later on
what id like to see would be a system with no need for NPC training exept for the first few levels
i dont need someone telling me how to hold a sword :sweatdrop: if i want to learn how to them to tell me how to learn the most complex fighting stances in Yliakum
and i dont need someone to tell me that fire is hot :devil: in order to learn how to craft a "sword engraved with runes of magic power of ultimate ulber salyingness and supreme GM'ness lvl:5 " :whistling:
but he NPC training would have a use as it would speed up the proces so it doesent die out completely it coulb be aa posibility to level faster but it would cost (as it does now)
PS: sorry if im making no sense at all