PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: bilbous on November 15, 2006, 06:55:40 am
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I started this thread to continue a subject that was increasingly off-topic and moving into an area that was inappropriate for its sub-forum. It is theoretical in nature and meant to provoke discussion. It is about the game as it is and not about how it will ideally end up.
If you must rely on potions and hit and run attacks, then it is my opinion that you are not strong enough to fight your target.
I personally do not agree with this proposition for several reasons.
When I started my character I spent a whole lot of money buying healing potions so that I could fight rats and not have to wait five minutes heal between bouts. By this reckoning a starting character is too weak to fight rats. Now I could have begged for or saved up my money to buy a magic sword but I would rather fend for myself. I did eventually pay for a /30 sword but that when I was about ready to fight rogues under the temple.
Another reason I disagree with this idea is that it seems to mean that you should only fight things that cannot hurt you. If it doesn't hurt you there is no need for potions and no need to develop tactics for victory. This is not my idea of fun. I like a challenge and there is no challenge here.
Now I don't advocate going toe to toe with an ulbernaut and using a bag full of potions to kill it. I suppose if you had to have that ulber drop for some quest it might be ok in that particular situation but that would be an exception to the rule. I don't see a problem with running though an ulbernaut and perhaps using two or three potions if I wait too long for my attack to come off and get hit by a couple claws. If you contend that it is an abuse of game mechanics I would remind you that those mechanics can just as easily abuse you. The devs work hard and I am not faulting them for anything, especially things beyond their control such as network latency. The fact remains that this is a consideration.
What is the point of having potions available if you can't use them?
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We were talking about using potions to fight ulbernaughts, not rats. ;)
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What is the point of having potions available if you can't use them?
In that quote of Zanzi you listed, I believe he was referring to the idea that it's looked down upon when potions are used during the fight. In reality, you're not going to be albe to drink down something all the while you're getting attacked. (Unless you're just a godly fighter compared to them, kinda like being an experienced verteran of three wars, dancing around swings from a lowly rat, all the while, you're playing the fiddle. )
But for the most part, using potions while during the middle of a fight, is generaly frowned upon. That isn't to say that you shouldn't be able to drink a few after the fight. But there again, gulping down 20 potions in a moments notice, well, even to call something "magic", there are still limits.
I could be wrong though, I guess you'd have to wait for him to clarify himself.
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@neko: You are indeed correct about my statement.
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The use or not to use potions was discussed. The only problem with them is to not use them when you are being hit by your enemy, or drink 20 of them in 5 seconds. It just can't work.
Few solutions were given like animation for every potion you drink or illnes and opposite effect if you drink too many in some period of time.
There is not much argument against charging at enemy and run away after few blows to repeat the process, to have time to drink one or two potions. But from other side, if the NPCs wouldn't be dump and could run, i can't imagine myself running away, drinking potion and with enemy on my back.
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I think there is a distinction to be made between beastial mobs and humanoid mobs. The humanoid mobs such as rogues, mercenaries, bandits and gladiators can be credited with intelligence akin to what a player has. They are unlikely to have that amount of intelligence due to being programmatic constructs but theoretically they are no different than other "humans." The other type of mob cannot be considered to have the same amount of intelligence as a player as they are animals. There is a third type that has just been sighted that is a hybrid and that is a hybrid. A dark rogue is this kind of creature and it is harder to judge its intellectual abilities. It appears to be a normal rogue under the sway of some dark magics with unknown effects. To me it is a puppet-like being whose will is displaced by some other so that whatever native intellect it may have had has been subsumed in the others imperative. This makes it difficult to determine its abilities until the puppet-master is revealed. This analysis is also highly speculative as there is not much information available to judge by.
One problem I can see as being included in abusing the game mechanics is that there are seemingly only three movement rates currently implimented. There is player walk and run and there is mob movement rate. I am not certain if mob rate and walking rate are different. Hopefully in the future this will change to allow such factors as agility and load to have a positive or negative effect and possibly for mobs the excitation level (berzerk mode or whatnot) but the premise of the thread is the game as it is. As it stands you can out-run any mob. My question is: is it an abuse of the game mechanics to run through a mob that is in your path such as the grendols on the bottom level of the arena or should you, perforce, fight them to go from one spoke to the next? Another question is is it less of an abuse if the mob is not agressive and is not triggered by proximity?
I have more questions such as how big does a potion have to be to have some magical effect and is a greater potion neccessarily larger than a standard potion or is the magic just stronger. It is unlikely that a potion would be the size of a gel-cap but it might be a dose is a tea spoon or a tablespoon. This is apparently not the case currently as the potion weighs half a unit, however, lesser and greater potions weigh the same which would imply that the portion is the same and it is the magic which increases. Also that half unit can be assumed to include the container of the magic liquid. This makes judging how long it would take to drink difficult. Another consideration that could be made is can doses be mixed? If so I could buy my 50 potions in a single container where a single dose would be a sip and multiple doses would be a chug.
I think that may be enough to chew on for the moment, I am sure more can be said but I would appreciate some discussion of these points before I go on.
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I'm sorry bilbous but you're just plain wrong. There is absolutely nothing realistic about drinking 50 potions all at once, while simultaneously running and hitting an ulbernaught with both hands. The intelligence of your opponent has absolutely nothind to do with it - the laws of physics exist even if the mob is too stupid to understand them.
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Thank you for carefully examining my posts and fully responding to my points. I never said once anything about "drinking 50 potions all at once, while simultaneously running and hitting an ulbernaught with both hands" that was all you. The most potions I would drink at once is three, maybe four as that would fill me up from next to nothing. Two hits from an ulbernaut would take about two thirds of my hits so in reality I would likely only use two. The intelligence of my opponent goes towards how much time I would have between "strafing runs." Speaking of the laws of physics, which do you think would have better maneuverability a 200 pount man or a thousand+ pound ulbernaut? My money is on the man. It may well be that a beastial ulbernaut will have a heightend sense of smell and be able to locate his prey as to general direction but if it is obscured by intervening brush or land features its mental processes would not be quick enough to find the proper path immediately.
If you don't wish to consider the topic as framed please save your breath and allow others to do so or the thread to die.
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So we aren't talking about hit and run attacks, but we are talking about "strafing runs"? We're saying "I could buy my 50 potions in a single container where a single dose would be a sip and multiple doses would be a chug", but we aren't talking about drinking 50 potions at once?
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What possible use would there be in drinking 50 potions at once? It would be a total waste of at least 45 potions as nobody has that many hit points. If you were to go toe to toe with an ulbernaut you might use that many in a battle. That would certainly be unrealistic in the manner that you mention. Tell me how would you realistically go about killing an elephant with just a sword without taking advantage of your ability to maneuver and to fit in places the elephant cannot. If a rogue elephant was menacing your family and it was up to you to stop it would you not try? Of course in the game your options are more limited.
I am trying to have a discussion about general potion use and legitimate human tactics, you keep trying to reframe the discussion into your own specific terms. Would it have made you feel better if I had said "three uses are a gulp?" Certainly a gulp is bigger than a sip as well as less than a chug.
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I'm trying to understand your post but it's boggling my mind. What does this have to do with the original topic?
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My thoughts on this subject are more along the line of "If you have to fight, fight to win". What purpose would the potions even have for existing if it wasn't for use during combat? They don't change your appearance. They don't help you do crafting, or spellcasting (with the exception of one type). If you have a way to give yourself an advantage in combat, and it doesn't involve exploiting a bug, use it!! For those who want to be "honorable" and only have "fair" fights, make sure you clarify that with your opponent beforehand. As for monster hunting, if some new guy takes 30 Light Red Potions and smacks an Ulbernaut around, good for him! The only caveat I would put on that is that the potions should probably cost more, because going from zero to hero for only 240 tria is a bit excessive.
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No one has stated just how large the potions are. Given the amount you can carry, logically they would have to be rather small. Given the artwork in the game for them, perfume bottle size would be about right. Plus, for the potions to have the 'instant' effect that they do, they would have to be absorbed into the body very rapidly, so would not remain long in the stomach, if they even get that far before vaporizing into the mouth and throat. It would not be unrealistic for a hardened fighter to pop the top off a vial and down it in less than a second. Taking this into acount, one could drink 50 with ease in the course of a longer fight, if not instantly.
HOWEVER, you should not be able to easily drink any potions with a sword or axe in both hands.
You must also take into account that I am against the instant potion drinking in battle thing. But that does not mean it can not be done.
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try to drink this:
(https://ssl-account.com/efisch.de/catalog/images/fisch/W502.gif)
in 10 seconds ;P
I will admire anyone who manage this !
Besides after drinking potion which restore 50HP its should be happening with 1-5HP a second.
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I am glad to see this getting some consideration. I certainly agree that potion use shouldn't be possible with two weapons or a weapon and a shield larger than a buckler. One problem with the system as it is now is that if you don't have both hands full your left hand does a melee attack anyway. This means that there is little point to leaving a hand free for other purposes for example drinking a potion. Your hand never misses an attack. I think that in order to do melee attacks you should be required to have both hands empty, that's just me, others may differ. It might be considered more appropriate to use potions if it was possible to have a hand not doing an attack.
I do not know how shields work as I have never used them but I presume they do a block instead of an attack but in any event count as doing an action with that hand.
I think multiple potion use could logically be discouraged by making subsequent uses less effective. Also there could be a limit on the number of doses effective for any particular hit. These two effects could be combined so that you could use a maximum of three potions for any hit and the second one would be two thirds as effective as the first and the third only one third as effective as the first potion. You could also have a second type of potion that would affect previous hits and the previously mentioned potion only affect the most recent hit. Perhaps the type that effects previous hits could be in the form of a salve that requires the user to sit down to apply.
As far as activation time goes I believe potions to be magical in nature with the liquid being the delivery system and I see no reason for them to take time to activate. Now alchemical infusions, all natural ingredients -- no magic involved -- would be a different thing and would work over time.
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Well, as to the open handed melee and fighing without pause, the system is flawed and too highly controlled by the server. It tells you not only when you hit, but where you hit, despite how your character may fight, or what style of fighing they use. In some styles of fighing, only one hand is used, while the other is held behind the back, or overhead for ballance. They could very well use that second hand to down potion after potion.
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The whole system is kinda illogical though. If you drink 50 potions and they disapear from your inventory, then that means that you dropped all the empty flasks. That's a lot of litter!
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Oh come on, when did you try to drink somethink from a bottle last time? Not a plastic one, which will shrink as you drink. You know why it does? Because it happens when you don't let the air in. Now, try drink this way from a glass bottle ;) after the first sip, shot, or whetever, hehe, the lower preasure will make it harder for you to make the next one. You need to let the air in and it takes time. I posted the small bottle of votka to visualise you the process of drinking. Just think how you drink a beer from a small bottle. Try to drink it as fast as possible and you will know how you would drink potions.
Besides, first you need to reach it and as pointed out you need free hand.
Another thing is how it tastes like. It is purely alchemical recepture (So bilbous, before you go with your instant magic effects of uber wonders, please be so kind and step away with it from alchemy, as there is a lot from chemistry and biology in it, what you know aren't magical forces i our universe. You have completly no arguments why magic should be instant, besides that you want it this way and you have such feeling ;)).
The element which speed up the process of assimilation is alcohol, so i won't be suprised of it wasn't part of the potion. Now think about the votka again, if you ever drank it, you know that it isn't good to drink a lot of it at once.
Shields. I have been fighting using a shield and i can assure anyone that holding it, you can do nothing else with that hand.
EDIT: There is also matter of what the HP really are.
While for me it is some kind of mix of level-of-being-tired/being-able-to-see-if-you-are-loosing-or-winning/being-trained-in-keeping-the focus-while-being-tired.
For others it is health. Extremaly simple explanation for people who are lost, when the logic is involved. Health which you can loose only after being badly hit, what basically means end of the fight. This makes wonder why the bar is ever necessary, coz you always loose it whole or none.
But that is talk for another discussion. A discussion like this one, which has many copies on these boards.
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Hold up! I had not though of that before. So, you do not drink the potion, you EAT the entire thing like popcorn. Maybe it is not even liquid (can't recall if it says you drink one).
*edit* To Nikodemus: What makes you think they are made of glass? In medieval times, skins were used as liquid transport. Easily squeezable skins.
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The element which speed up the process of assimilation is alcohol, so i won't be suprised of it wasn't part of the potion. Now think about the votka again, if you ever drank it, you know that it isn't good to drink a lot of it at once.
Lies! Why must you lie so much, liar!?
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Lies! Why must you lie so much, liar!?
To annoy your annoying and sarcastic mind. Now go back to your sandbox ;)
Hold up! I had not though of that before. So, you do not drink the potion, you EAT the entire thing like popcorn. Maybe it is not even liquid (can't recall if it says you drink one).
*edit* To Nikodemus: What makes you think they are made of glass? In medieval times, skins were used as liquid transport. Easily squeezable skins.
The potions i see in game looks like from glass. It is indeed a good idea to make them from skins maybe.
But this brings a question why they aren't. Maybe they are from glass, because how fast you drink it doesn't really matter. I mean, 3 or 10 seconds doesn't make a difference, when the effect takes over a minute to finish ;). If the effect takes 10 seconds to end, the skins are a good solution, but i don't see that in-game. I gues it is up to the setting devs to decide how the potions work.
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Let's see, where to begin.
Apropos nothing in particular, I recall the ancient past when I was away at music camp to practice trombone. I made a few dollars by betting with the other campers that I could chug a 12 ounce bottle of water in less than 10 seconds. I never once lost the bet. Now they didn't sell bottled water in those days, I had to use a coke bottle filled from a tap. So let us say for arguments sake that a potion is six ounces, I could chug that in five seconds wihich is less than one second in game. Kind of silly to argue because we don't know how big a potion is and any accounting of the time dilation is affected by the discrepancies between the times different things take. There is no 1:1 correlation possible that takes into account all possible actions.
Now as far as alchemical/enchantment basis of the potion is concerned I did kind of deal with that already as I indicated that I though the potions were magical in kind. You say there is no instant effect with magic, I beg to differ. If you cast a spell the effect is normally instantaneous. The casting takes some time and may not succed but once it does the effect is normally immediate. When you complete the defensive wind spell your magical protection affect is added to your base defense, likewise rock armor. When you cast summon missile, flame burst, weakness or freeze the effect is immediate, in the case of freeze it lasts a while but starts right away. The thing about enchantments is that all the time consuming stuff is taken during the enchantment and the effect is held until the item is activated. In the case of a magical potion the activation happens with the drinking. In the case of a sword it happens with weilding the weapon in some cases (stat boost) or hitting an enemy (extra damage) in other cases.
EDIT
Humorous rant rmoved due to subsequent circumstances (edits etc.).
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I thought we are actually talking and listening to others points.
I have no idea what is 12 ounce. The world universal standard, norm is a litre [l] Hopefully i know how big is a coke bottle :)
Anyway, i suppose coke bottles were glass, if they were plastic, lets just say you shouldn't have write all this. I think 5 seconds sounds like right to drink a potion. I think you can hit your opponet 3 times within these 5 seconds. It is hard to drink, dodge and swing with weapon at the same time. It is what i was trying to point out.
The in game spells... I realise we are all guessing here and i'm taking a gues that the way spells work is going to change. Nothing in a world is happening instantly, it is always taking time. Even when you cast an arrow, it must take time before it reach the enemy and then go through his body. It takes time. much less than a second, but still. Different spells cause different effect. Lets take weakness and freeze as example. Their effects last for few seconds.
When I told you to not mess your ideas with spells with alchemy, i meant that it is not the same thing and that i want you to leave at least alchemy from the crazy ideas how magic should work, with no respect for everything else in the world. There is just a lot chemistry in it besides magic.
So why not instant effect? because nothing is happenig just like that. The game is the way it is now, because it was faster to code it this way. This way we have very simplified scetch of the things to come.
In fact there aren't many arguments we can give, when the magic is involved. I base my arguments on the general rule how everything is happening in real world. Because it is consistent and i heard PS world is going to be consistent too. I think you are basing your ideas on what is currently in game, while you can't be sure about it, as it is in very early and crude stage.
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/equip 1 greater potion of healing
/equip 1 potion of healing
/equip 1 lesser potion of healing
/equip 1 lesser potion of healing
/equip 1 lesser potion of healing
/equip 1 fish
/equip 1 fish
/equip 1 fish
/equip 1 pie
/equip 1 pie
/equip 1 pie
/equip 1 apple
/equip 1 apple
/equip 1 apple
This is what my healing shortcut is. I can do all these things at the touch of a button. If I press it twice quickly, then I do it twice as much.
It is in no way realistic, but it's entirely permissible under the current game mechanics.
The devs realise this and they will be changing it in the future.
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12 ounces is about 355 ml.
The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]
Potion \Po"tion\, n. [L. potio, from potare to drink: cf. F.
potion. See Poison.]
A draught; a dose; usually, a draught or dose of a liquid
medicine. --Shak.
Potions are liquid by definition. The container could be wax or sheeps bladder or other edible thing to make a primitive gel cap but that is unlikely. It could be some kind of ceramic or glass or some kind of inedible container and this is much more likely. The amount of liquid is certainly debatable. The disposition of the container is one of those things not really accounted for such as what happens to all the apple cores as I don't eat them and what are the fish wrapped in or how come pies don't get mushed in a fight. If you are looking for perfection you will always be disappointed.
I did distinguish between alchemy and magical items, it just always seemed to me that potions were magical in nature but that might be wrong. If they are not magical then I do not suppose you could go from one hit point away from death to full health in less than a week. It is the effect that seems magical more than anything else.
It takes no longer to drink out of a bottle than it takes to pour out of it unless you are sucking on a nipple the way some of those power drinks come and these would not be in the game.
When I suggested five seconds to drink six ounces I was talking real time not game time. If six hours of time in game takes one hour of real time then six seconds would take one second which is faster than you can swing a weapon as the weapon times appear to be in real seconds so that a 2 speed would take 12 seconds of game time.
Of course the timing in the game is not terribly consistant at the moment as some actions take longer than they should and others are shorter. Certainly some things must submit realism for playability and as we all know the game is far from finished.
/equip 1 greater potion of healing
/equip 1 potion of healing
/equip 1 lesser potion of healing
/equip 1 lesser potion of healing
/equip 1 lesser potion of healing
/equip 1 fish
/equip 1 fish
/equip 1 fish
/equip 1 pie
/equip 1 pie
/equip 1 pie
/equip 1 apple
/equip 1 apple
/equip 1 apple
This is what my healing shortcut is. I can do all these things at the touch of a button. If I press it twice quickly, then I do it twice as much.
It is in no way realistic, but it's entirely permissible under the current game mechanics.
The devs realise this and they will be changing it in the future.
Well, that is just the most ridiculous shortcut I have ever seen. It is perfectly possible and it is abusive.
Mine looks like this /use 1 potion of greater healing and I press it as needed. It is perfectly reasonable and does not even always prevent my death. I see nothing wrong with this.
People who want to do ridiculous things will find ways to do ridiculous things and no amount of coding will prevent it. If your problem was with the macro system why didn't you say so in the first place?
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*le sigh*
1. My problem isn't with the macro system. You know this.
2. Hit and run attacks are also abusive.
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If your problem is not with the macro system then what does your example healing macro have to do with your argument. It is an obvious misuse of the macro system. The fact that it has to do with things that give healing seems to be incidental. Make the macro system so that it cannot /use multiple items and the problem largely goes away. Add an activation hold on the /use of items and the problem is further reduced. Why should you be able to /equip a potion anyway, wouldn't that just put it in your hand? It should be /use. Perhaps you should have to equip it before you can use it but you could still make a macro that unequips your weapon, [equips a potion uses it]*n and re-equips your weapon. If you have a problem that there is potions at all in the game you are welcome to lobby to have them removed but I don't think you will succeed. In this thread I have presented several possible ways for them to be tweaked and I have yet to hear what your solution would be.
I have presented an alternative viewpoint about the "hit and run" attacks and you have not discussed them you just flat out said they were abusive. So what I can gather from this is that if you are so unfortunate ast trigger an ulbernaut attack by rounding a corner and coming face to face with it then your only recourse is to stand there and die because to run away from it is to abuse the game mechanic that characters can move faster than monsters.
I do not think anyone reasonable will agree with this but it seems to be implied by your position.
I will say one other thing about the original quotation I made from that other thread
If you must rely on potions and hit and run attacks, then it is my opinion that you are not strong enough to fight your target.
and that is if you are fighting a monster that cannot do more damage to you than you can heal without magic and so cannot possibly kill you then you are too strong to fight that monster. So what does that leave us to fight?
I must be dumb or something all I have understood about your objections is an unlikely use of 50 potions at once which was probably meant as a gross exaggeration, unspecified disposal of containers for which I offered possible methods of dealing with and pointed at other container problems, and the problem with full hands. This I have tried to discuss various solutions for the future but I do not see using two or three potions in a fight as excessively abusive, technically I suppose it is. Are we supposed to just die because we lagged out and our attack packets didn't make it to the server but the mobs attacks didn't stop? Using my best weapons I can kill a gladiator in two to four hits because I have good skill and rarely miss, they miss me three times out of four most of the time but I still occasionally die due to lag issues. Does that mean I am not strong enough to fight gladiators?
I just don't know.
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1. My problem is with the game mechanics, not the macro system.
2. I believe that I have infact discussed why I think the hit and run attacks are abusive, but I'll repeat myself for your benefit. Hit and run attacks exploit the game mechanics. They make duels unfun, they bipass the in-game ballances created by the devs, and they deny mobs the ability to fight back.
3. There will always be creatures which are more powerful than you, and rightfully so. We should not be able to take on ulbernaughts one on one and survive - they're HUGE. Maybe if you're the target of a really intense enchantment, and you have a sword given to you by Laanx herself, then maybe it's appropriate. But otherwise, people should only successfully fight the most powerful monsters in groups if we want things to be realistic as per the game mechanics.
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1. To me the macro system is part of the game mechanics so I don't really understand this point. It is one sub-system of the game mechanics that has some problems that I have no doubt will be fixed.
2. I don't duel because that becomes a test of reflexes and I just don't cut it with people half my age and less. That is my choice and I mention it just to show where I am coming from. When I fought the Ulbernauts before the world bug it would take me about twenty minutes with two slash 50 weapons and my success rate was only about 60%. I did it because it was a fun challenge unlike any of the other mobs available. All it took for me to lose is to lag at an inopportune time and get hit with 4 claw attacks. The fact that the Ulbers were never quite where they seemed due to lag displacement added to the challenge. This is what I meant when I said way back when, I think it might have even been in the other thread, that the game mechanics sometimes abuse you. The Ulbersare the most powerful monster available but I doubt very much that they always will be. If they always will be the strongest monster I suspect they will become much tougher in the future. I rather expect they will become like the thugs, interesting of to a certain level of training but kind of pointless after a time.
3. An ulbernaut is more powerful than me and likely will remain so until a lot more training is available. It can kill me in four hits, I need about twenty to kill it (wild guess, probably low, might be close). A gladiator is not more powerful than me because I can kill it faster than it can kill me. I fundamentally disagree with you about grouping being required as some people just don't play well with others. Others are forced by circumstance to step up when there is nobody else. Maybe required grouping for the toughest mobs is one of the founding principles of Planshift but if it is I have not seen it expressed anywhere. Heros do heroic things and ond one of the tenets of the fantasy genre (where planeshift would seem to comfortably fit) is that people can be heroes.
I respect your viewpoint as expressed and hope you can respect mine even though we disagree. I would like to know if you think it is an abuse of the game mechanics to run away from a monster that you have triggered or if you feel no compunction in using your faster movement rate to avoid combat.
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i. The macro system isn't really a part of the mechanics of the game. It's more of a trigger for what's already there.
ii. When I first started playing, what was fun was to get a group of 15 or more people to go ulber hunting. It was great because half of the group would die just on the journey there due to fall damage, and the rest died horrible bloody deaths at the hands of the monster. When was the last time you saw a group of players that big work together to attack anything?
iii. The point is that your character is not a god and it shouldn't be a god. There should always be things which aren't possible for your character; a creature shouldn't be killable just because it's in the game.
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Bilbous, I didn't meant you to unerstand that alchemy has nothing to do with magic. It does. Some potions more, some less. But when you are mixing two things, in this case magic and chemistry, you can't expect them to work in the same way as they normally are, while not mixed. They are mixed to have special effect. For example if you won't mix them, coz you want to have pure spell effect, you don't have a potion anymore. Potions are potions, something you can drink, because they are mix of magic and chemistry.
PStime-RLtime
You are completly misunderstanding the concept. Imagine that two countries came up with the same name for their value, but gaveit different values. It is the same in PS comparing to RL. You are wrong that 1RL = 1PS . When i'm writing that drinking a potion takes 5 seconds, i mean 5RL seconds.
AFAIR 5RL = 30PS , because the multiplier is 6.
Just like you wrote "12 ounces is about 355 ml." ^^
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On the consistancy of potions and their containers in a medieval setting:
First off, potions are not -allways- a liquid. The very definition you gave states that they are -usually- liquid. That is the same as saying the sky is -usualy- blue. Is it always? No. A potion can be a mixture of something dry, or even a paste, set in folded paper. A potion can also be any size you can imagine.
Now for the containers. Let's look at this logicaly. Potions designed for instant healling in battle settings would have to be two things. One, they would have to be easy and fast to consume, in or out of battle. This leads to the arguement that they would be small. Now, to make them fast to drink (since they do seem to be liquid in this game), despite the small opening, they would have to be soft, and likely made out of a cured animal hide (is that what rat hides are used for?) or internal organ. Further supporting this is the fact that glass and clay are heavy, hard to drink out of, and very easy to break. By the time you were done being pummelled by a foe, half your potions would be crushed. Then, take into acount that glass was very expensive to make in medieval times, and would not be handed out like candy.
Taking all the facts into consideration, you are left with the assumption that potions are a very potant liquid contained in a durable, cheap, small, and soft container that degrades when dropped. A cured bladder from a small animal would easily fit all of those criteria. Glass, clay, and even metal would not.
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Taking all the facts into consideration, you are left with the assumption that potions are a very potant liquid contained in a durable, cheap, small, and soft container that degrades when dropped. A cured bladder from a small animal would easily fit all of those criteria. Glass, clay, and even metal would not.
As i pointed in this thread, there must be one more condition: They have to actually work almost instantly. It is up to the devs how and if they limit use of potions. I would like them to limit it a lot. If they do it, your idea about potions from skins wouldn't be that universal. There would be more glass and less skin containers.
We shall see :)
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Nik, I suggested that to me potions would be magically created and alchemy would produce some other natural healing liquid. I did not suggest they would be mixed or even that both techniques would be combined. This is just me talking about my expectations and may not be reflected by the game design. An example of a potion (outside the game) from a clerical aspect would be holy water, ordinary water infused with godly magic that can be used to damage undead. An alchemic preperation would be something like herbal cough syrup, natural remedies that could be prepared from ingredients collected from the field. It might be possible to combine the two types of effects but I would think it uncommon. Perhaps we are just disagreeing on terminology and I want to be clear as to what I mean.
As far as the real time - game time question goes I was suggesting that to drink six ounces of a liquid the consistancy of water would take 5 seconds of game time which would be about one second of real time.
I could chug that in five seconds wihich is less than one second in game
Perhaps I was a little sloppy in how I described it.
Zan just a couple points
ii I remember that sort of thing and it was amusing but also a very laggy experience. The only thing that generates mass combat now seems to be guild warfare. You are right that it doesn't happen much anymore.
iii Natural creatures in my mind should be killable and to me an ulbernaut is just a big bear-like natural creature. It may be that the original inhabitants bred/arrived too fast for the ulbers to eat them all but I think the ulbers would have been hunted to extinction if they posed too much of a threat. If you want nearly unkillable monsters in the game perhaps you could convince a GM to put on a skin not currently in game and to set his stats to suitably tough levels such that a collection of the greatest warriors will have difficulty slaying him. This would seem to be a perfect theme for a RP event. They might even enjoy an excuse to trash some players. I fundamentally disagree that there should be standard monsters that the most experienced character could not defeat, at least on a semi permanent basis. I do not have a problem if such a beast should appear in advance of the implimentation of the skills needed to defeat it. I do not expect you to agree.
UtM
I think a potion should be a liquid of varying viscosity, I believe the paste in the paper would be more appropriately termed a poultice for example. Something the consistancy of pudding might be an unguent. Just a small quibble.
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bilbous: I am not quibbling, nor putting forth my opinion. Just the definition. I think potions in the game should be liquid.
Nikodemus: I am not sure what you are saying, exactly. How fast a potion works has, well... nothing to do with what it is contained in. The only reason to put something in glass is if it would not be held for long in any other type of container by way of degrading it. Limiting the use of potions also has nothing to do with what they are held in.
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I'm sorry I meant that I was quibbling.
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UtM: If the potion is working slow, there is no need to use container which allow its fast use. It may be skin, glss or whatever, because 2 or 5 seconds doesn't make a difference, when the effect is taking over a minute or longer. It has an impact on the material. You agree that liquids aren't kept inside neutral materials like glss with no reason, so without thinking od to many factors and looking how it is in game, the default contaner is glass. It would turn into skin if how fast you drink it mattered. And it would matter if the effect would be very fast.
If you can't undersatnd it (I posted it in this thread before and it is annoying to repeat myself), then i can't explain it better.
This doesn't mean skin potions doesnt exist, because there are various reasons for that..
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Please read my entire post about why glass would not be used. Most of my points have nothing to do with how fast you can drink it. Let me re-state.
Glass is:
Fragile (see easily breakable)
Costly (the glass would cost more than its contents)
Heavy (the weight of material vs. the weight of contents is less efficient than other materials)
Solid (they are the shape that they are, where skins or bladders are malleable, and therefore easier to pack)
Rare (skins or bladders are just plain easier to make and come by in a medieval setting. Even the basic farmer could make a waterskin)
Potions are a throw-away item. You do not use glass for that. You use the cheapest, lightest, and most durable container you can find. That, my friend, is the waterskin.
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I suppose it depends on the quantity you are packing, it might make sense for an army or an epic adventure to use a keg of some size.
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I think that when we use a potion, we should be left with the empty container - glass flask or otherwise. We can then sell the container back to an alchemist, or use it to hold potions we make ourselves, or we can use it as a container for found items like water from an enchanted stream. :-D It would make things more interesting I think.
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That seems like a decent idea, perhaps we can have a ceramic bowl and tongs for smelting purposes as well and boxes for our pies and wrapping paper for our fish and scabbards for our swords, all in good time. I think I saw somewhere that dropping containers was something of a design decision but that doesn't mean they can't be reconsidered in the future.
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glass is also:
Durable: yeah, there are different ways you can damage material. For example glass won't be eaten, is resilient at stabs, coz it move aside, what can't be told about elastic skin container.
Long lasting: It won't loose its properties over time
Cheap: yeah, what make you think potions are easy and cheap to make? The Fact every computer RPG has to have them, so that player don't have t wait for his char to recover? Maybe actually the liquid is more expensive than the glass container? Like, I complain that they are currently too cheap in PS and you ask why they aren't made of skin instead of glass.
Transparent: you see whats inside, when you buy it for exmple, or if the content loose it properties by changing consistency/color
Solid: when you cause preasure on it, you may be sure the cork won't jump out, like with the elastic skins.
Neutral material: it doesn't react easy, or at all with other chemical substances.
You can that both types of potions have their advantages and disadvantages. Thats why i said that: ^^
This doesn't mean skin potions doesnt exist, because there are various reasons for that..
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I just had an odd thought. If potions are as I suggest magical in nature as opposed to perhaps natural elixers made by alchemy then they would not absolutely need containers, they could be magical bubbles that dissolve when they contact saliva. As I said a strange and unique, I think, idea. I give it freely to the community.
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Yeah, i forgot to tell you before, hoping you won't extend your creation, that there is reason why we have alchemy and spells. First is for mixing chemistry with magic in order to gain a potion, half magical liquid which may be used by non-magicians. Second, an effect which need to be cast by a mage and mage only, to have maybe better effect than this what a potion may provide.
There are no potions which does the same thing as spells and which don't involve chemistry.
typos.... *yawn*
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Is that an official position or is it your personal opinion. I do not know who you are, are you entitled to speak for the devs? My understanding of alchemy is that it is the use of non-living materials in natural preparations just as herbology is the use of natural organic materials in natural preparations and then there are the magically enchanted effects which were less compatable than the former two. This understanding has less to do with the PS world as it does with how the terms have been used in popular culture.
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I just had an odd thought. If potions are as I suggest magical in nature as opposed to perhaps natural elixers made by alchemy then they would not absolutely need containers, they could be magical bubbles that dissolve when they contact saliva. As I said a strange and unique, I think, idea. I give it freely to the community.
Why stop there? Maybe buying potions is actually just symbolic for building up a resevoir of HP points that exists in an alternate dimension and is automatically added to your life total if your HP falls below 50 percent.
>:(
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Well if we want to get silly I'll take mine in the form of bubble gum that squirts. I was trying to be serious.
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If you are going to be serious you need to think. If there were magic bubbles, there is no room for potions at all^^ because what for if the bubbles are better from every side. I won't even go into details of a magic bubble, I would tell you bilbous, to look flaws of it by yourself, but if you didn't do it already, you probably won't ;) While you should have had...
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I was actually thinking of a liquid that had an extremely high surface tension and behaved must like water in free-fall. This would make the "potion" be a perfect sphere if you threw it up in the air, and be flattened on the bottom if it was to come to rest on the ground. It might act like liquid mercury or some such thing. One thing I think that tends to get forgotten in the rush to realism is that it is Fantasy. As long as it is self consistant that should be realism enough. Why can't this approach work? Can you not suspend your disbelief for a second? Isn't that what fantasy is about?
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omfg, why don't you read what i write?
I said there would be no potions if there are purely magic bubbles. What further proove they won't exist in PS as we have normal potions. Ask Talad for permission and i won't complain anymore. gah..
/me notes: Bilbous is the guy who goes for the fantasy and magic argument when there aren't real arguments.
I was actually thinking of a liquid that had an extremely high surface tension and behaved must like water in free-fall.
I won't even try to imagine how to eat, drink, assmilate it, or whatever...
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So what you seem to be saying is that a potion cannot exist without its container. Perhaps I am not being clear enough. Then again you refuse to acknowledge that magic can exist in the world and have inexplicable effects.
Tell me if you can just how a sword of clear thought can increase your wil by 20 points? It can't be magic because there can be no magic argument. It can't be fantasy either because that argument is out. Yes we have potions that have a graphic. That does not mean the graphic cannot be changed. All I have been trying to suggest are ways that the current situation could be explained in a way that more or less fits what we can see. You try to explain what happens to the containers once they are emptied. Do they magically disappear? Nope there is that magic argument again. Do you eat them? Well I suppose they could be made of wax and not be harmful but I think they would tend to get mushed.
I do not understand why you are getting so upset. The only reason you have given me for my idea to be unacceptable is just that you seem to think potions are non-magical and I'm telling youcomplete health from a near fatal wound with no passage of time has to be a magical effect and if it is a magical effect it can have a magical delivery system. It is that thing about being consistant within itself. If you think potions of healing are non-magical please feel free to explain to me how they work. There is nothing in the real world that will take you from your deathbed to complete health in an instant.
I realize my idea is unusual but I just don't see it as something out of line for a fantasy game. It might never be adopted by the devs but that doesn't mean it is worthless to discuss.