PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: LARAGORN on November 19, 2006, 09:42:35 pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061117/ts_nm/dutch_burqa_ban_dc
There is a lot of heated discussion over this ruling.
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Weird, i'm dutch and I haven't heared anything about this on the news.
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Yeah I saw it on the news here in the UK.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the ban actually on wearing any item which covers the face? If so then it's fair that it includes optional religious dress too. I don't see what the fuss is about, other than it being another excuse for people to cry out about 'Islamiphobia'.
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I'm dutch and I can tell you this is a hoax. There's been discussion over it yes, but we're not even close to a law or anything.
And Xordan is right, some parties wanted ban every face masking headwear, because of security. (camera identification)
It's not just some anti-muslim proposal as some would think, though I'm sure everyone will be saying that.
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ThomP should not spend so much time on planeshift and watch the news once in a while :)
I am Dutch too, and did see something on the news (and found a newspaper article for Thom: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/article53160711.ece (in dutch)).
End of 2005 dutch parliament did decide they want to ban burkas in public places. The Dutch Cabinet (primeminister, other ministers) did not prepare a law for this. Recently, the parliament (by majority of votes) tried to force them to do so, and (according to the newspaper) they were probably going to decide to not ban it, but make wearing it in public places a pain, by asking women who wear them for identification all the time (indeed based on law that you are not allowed to walk around unidentifiably).
With all this, most important fact is that in a few days we have elections, and all parties are putting all kinds of things on the agenda in the hope it will help them get votes.
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I dont know why all the headdresses get banned in many parts of Europe like they do.. America has no laws like that and I dont understand why they are needed ;)
Edit: Anyone see the ban in France on denying the Armenian Genocide?
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Yeah I saw it on the news here in the UK.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the ban actually on wearing any item which covers the face? If so then it's fair that it includes optional religious dress too. I don't see what the fuss is about, other than it being another excuse for people to cry out about 'Islamiphobia'.
Actually it's the head, the face is in full view.
And it's a big issue because the scarf doesn't really hurt anyone else, but taking it off does hurt the person wearing it.
Basically, the way i've read about it is it's about Modesty, same reason we all wear clothes and speak to each other, being naked would be awekward and wouldn't be modest.(I know about nudist colonies, so don't even try it, there are extremists on every issue. I'm speaking of the vast majority of the world)
To me i don't mind if they wear the Veil or not, I will glance over, which i admit is rude, but they feel safe in it.
It is also a religous obligation.
And yes it will attract attention, hence the glance over part, but then again it's not hurting me in any way, so i see no problem in it.
Banning it would be a kind of attack on religeon.
Crosses arn't a religeous duty to be worn, let's say one day they were, that Jesus came back and made them a requirement to be a christian.
Now imagine those same crosses being banned.
You feel as if you're betraying your Savior, the man who killed himself, just so your sins could be purged. He asked one thing of you, to wear that cross. Imagine again, the reaction of it being banned.
I think you see why it's such an issue now.
~~Datruth
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I'm going to start a religion that makes it mandatory for adherents to kick anyone who ask them who they are and then say I am immune to assault laws because my religion made me do it. Anyone want to sign up? Free kicks at the can to all followers. :devil:
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Crosses arn't a religeous duty to be worn, let's say one day they were, that Jesus came back and made them a requirement to be a christian.
Now imagine those same crosses being banned.
You feel as if you're betraying your Savior, the man who killed himself, just so your sins could be purged. He asked one thing of you, to wear that cross. Imagine again, the reaction of it being banned.
I think you see why it's such an issue now.
~~Datruth
Funny you should mention a cross. Not long ago (a few weeks) a flight attendant was told to remove her cross, as it offended one of the passengers. She was threatend to lose her job if she didnt remove it. ( i will try to find the link)
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I'm going to start a religion that makes it mandatory for adherents to kick anyone who ask them who they are and then say I am immune to assault laws because my religion made me do it. Anyone want to sign up? Free kicks at the can to all followers. :devil:
If you can get 20% of the world to follow you than i guess people will have to listen.
We have an our Constitution a thing called "Established" religeon, we can see through phonies like the one you just mentioned.
And like i said, If the Pracitce doesn't hurt anyone, than It should be allowed.
Your analogy fails on all these points, you don't have an established religeon and you cause pain to others.
While this Lady has an Established Religeon and she causes no pain to anyone.
Nice try though Bilbo ;)
~~Datruth
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...He was trying to make a joke.
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...He was trying to make a joke.
Yes, a joke on how making a religeon shields you and allows you to hurt others.
Which was being compared to the topic.
I had no problem with it, i'm glad he posted it actually, so people could see that there are measures to stop religeons from harming others.
In this such case though, no harm was done.
And do i have scent of karyuu on me, i could swear i attract them from miles away. :whistling: :lol: :)
~~Datruth
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It was a joke but it did have a half serious point though. What makes a religion? Is Scientology a religion? It was invented by L. Ron Hubbard a science fiction author on a bet. Does the Church of the Latter Day Saints a religion? It was founded by some American. Jehovah's Witnesses? Christian Scientists? Hari Krishnas? Is Opus Dei? or are they just a Catholic sect? What about Jedi there is a move afoot, in England I believe, to have it recognised as such. Wicca? Druidism? As far as I can tell the difference between a religion and a cult is that a cult is focused on its leader as god while a religion focuses on some nebulous spirit from which all good comes from.
That said I was mostly just trying to be amusing in a semi-on-topic manner. And please do not get upset if I mentioned your particular religion in dubious company in this post, I do not mean to pass judgement on what anyone believes. I believe in nothing I can't see for myself and that has made me cynical. Not everything I can see is what it appears to be.
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Actually it's the head, the face is in full view.
No it isn't.... this is about burqa's (http://www.iit.edu/~khanath/ebay/sakina/stock/burqa/afghani/afblack1.jpg) which do cover the face, and come under this law. If it was about headscarf's then it would be totally different.... but it isn't so your point isn't that relevant. So I don't see why it's a big deal. If they don't like it then they don't have to live there. Same goes for people who want to wear their balaclava's (http://www.snogear.com/images/miscellaneous/balaclava.jpg).
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Here is a link to the BBC coverage: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6159046.stm) and an excerpt:
The latest move came after an expert committee judged that it would not contravene Dutch law.
Other forms of face coverings, such as crash helmets with visors that obscure the face, would also be covered by a legal ban.
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Actually it's the head, the face is in full view.
No it isn't.... this is about burqa's (http://www.iit.edu/~khanath/ebay/sakina/stock/burqa/afghani/afblack1.jpg) which do cover the face, and come under this law. If it was about headscarf's then it would be totally different.... but it isn't so your point isn't that relevant. So I don't see why it's a big deal. If they don't like it then they don't have to live there. Same goes for people who want to wear their balaclava's (http://www.snogear.com/images/miscellaneous/balaclava.jpg).
Ohh, it's good you mentioned that Xordan.
Burqa's are a Traditional Custom and have nothing to do with their religeon, so i guess there is nothing to stop them from banning them.
I thought this was a veil issue.
Guess burqa's are going to go then because i don't think it has any good reasons to stay at this point.
~~Datruth
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Any kind of 'religious' or 'cultural' clothing or accessories can and often will become a problem to someone.
Should that kid in Montreal (http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?06-0228) be allowed to wear his kirpan (http://www.mef.qc.ca/images/kirpan.gif) to school? There is a no knives policy surely. Canada's Supreme Court says it's ok.
That Muslim English teacher in Britain (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/19/uveil.xml) who got suspended for refusing to take her full head veil around her male co-workers. Could not seeing your co-worker/teacher's face hamper things at the school in some manner?
In Canada, it's been ruled that Sikh RCMP's (Police) can wear their turbins (http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?06-0228) while on duty - rather than the traditional hat that everyone else on the force has to wear.
All tradition, be it secular or religious is sacred to someone. Some flex with the times, others stay stead-fast to their roots. Some unfortunately choose out of convenience when to exercise their religious traditions. Evidently the Muslim British school teacher had gone to her job interview with no veil. (That's what I read, be that accurate or not I know of countless times I've seen people play the religious - or race - card when it suits their purpose ATM)
Some places and groups allow for easier integration for the minority. Others, not so much. I've heard that in some places in the Mid-East it's a big no-no for (western) women to walk around in public wearing the traditional no-veil of their home country.
Me, I'm not predisposed to feel a certain way about religious fashion one way or another.
Case by case, based on safety, respect and common sense. We can't please everyone all the time.
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If someone is offended by the wearing of a veil it sounds like its their problem. America is having alot of the same problems atm with atheists (and plenty of other groups.. not just to single out the atheists). I dont remember the guys name (or care).. but he is a father of a girl who doesnt live with him (she lives with her mother who is a christian) and he took a case all the way to the supreme court to try and get rid of "a nation under God" out of the pledge of allegiance. Maybe a small minority of people will complain about stupid things.. that doesnt mean they should get their way.
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There was a case in Canada where someone (who I also don't care to look up their name) wanted to take the word 'God' out of Canada's National Anthem. Come to think of it, when I was a kid we'd recite the Lord's Prayer in school before or after we'd sing O'Canada. My daughter goes to the same school now and it's just the song now.
At least the big-box stores aren't going to lose the Merry Christmas theme for Happy Winter or whatever....yet. I personally like the festive stuff, just not until mid-December.
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Here in the USA, they did drop the Merry Christmas line. It was just seasons greetings. Walmart decided to bring it back this year though.
Politicaly Corectness is nice and all, but eveything has a limit. ::)
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I'm Dutch, and I am quite surprised that this issue gets attention internationally. Firstly it's no law yet, just a proposal. Besides that, it's only about the Burqa, which covers the full face. It has nothing to do with wearing a normal head scarf, which is perfectly possible here. In my opinion that proposal has nothing to do with stopping people from expressing their religion. It's just a matter of not being unrecognizable.
Next Wednesday we have national elections here, but the whole Burqa thing is not really an issue in the elections. And rightfully so. According to that BBC article less then 100 people wear such a burqa in the Netherlands which is quite possible as I never have seen any.
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I haven't seen them either, and I live near a city with one of the highest muslim percentages of the population.
You mostly see headscarves, and those are fine.
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It's become 'big news' because of the whole "Everyone is Islamiphobic, we are hard done by" which a few Muslims are throwing around nowadays.
That Muslim English teacher in Britain (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/19/uveil.xml) who got suspended for refusing to take her full head veil around her male co-workers. Could not seeing your co-worker/teacher's face hamper things at the school in some manner?
That's wrong, the suspension had nothing to do with that at all. The issue was that she wouldn't take off her full head veil while teaching. The kids couldn't understand her properly because it muffled her voice. So she got suspended, which is fair enough. I'd expect the same thing to happen if it was a balaclava or other item that hid the mouth :) She changed her story later and said that she wouldn't take it off in front of male co-workers, but that was to try and get compensation, not the reason why she got suspended. Unfortunately there's the attitude which I mentioned a few lines above where if it involves Islam in any way it's prejudice against Muslims etc. Even though if you went to a Islamic country you'd be forced to abide by their customs. Things seem a lot of "One rule for us, another for everyone else" sometimes.
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Racism is the stick used by many ethnic groups, mostly when they are in the minority to get what they want. Sometimes it is appropriate, sometimes not. It is usually effective. In many cases its use is the same as the old question "have you stopped beating your wife?" It assumes guilt on the part of the person it is used upon regardles of the merits of the situation. Sexism is also used in this manner as are other isms used as epithtets.