PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: zanzibar on December 11, 2006, 10:38:55 am
-
"Love is suicide."
"To live is to die."
"Die before you die and be reborn in the light of god."
"One must me empty before one can be full."
Maybe, one day some of you will understand all of this The rest of you never will and you will instead live normal lives.
Pray for longevity.
-
"Love is suicide."
"To live is to die."
"Die before you die and be reborn in the light of god."
"One must me empty before one can be full."
Maybe, one day some of you will understand all of this The rest of you never will and you will instead live normal lives.
Pray for longevity.
Seperate yourself from this Materrialistic world before you die.
Have no need for this, and be ready for the next world.
We weren't meant to be here, and this is similar to the dreams we have, when we wake we see the real world.
We are all veiled... this world hinders our view of The Truth.
When we die, we have that Veil Lifted.
Lift yours now before you die.
~~Datruth
-
someone->nothing->someone
umm right? Send me a pm if it's correct dear zanz
-
someone->nothing->someone
umm right? Send me a pm if it's correct dear zanz
Wrong idea, more like the creation of a butterfly
caterpillar--> Cocoon --> Butterfly
Your soul never truly dies, only the shell that is your body, or in this case, the cocoon.
~~Datruth
-
When a man lies he murders some part of the world
These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home
-
"Love is suicide."
"To live is to die."
"Die before you die and be reborn in the light of god."
"One must me empty before one can be full."
uhmm this is just my personal interpretation...i dunnos if this is meant as some philosphy discussion
love is suicide. you surrender your life to it willingly. it is a force which is more than yourself could ever be
to live is to die. every second of your life you are dying, kinda pessimistic. but death in itself is a rebirth
die before you die and be reborn in the light of god. i suppose this is some form of spirit giving where you surrender yourself to "god" and you die in your old ways, spiritually at least, but not physically, and through this spirtual death, as i said before, every death is a rebirth
one must be empty before one can be full. hmm this one took the most thought for me. you have a cup, there is no water, so you fil it up. therefor ethe cup must be empty before you fil it up. however in regards to the human soul i dunnos if this is possible. to say that a human soul was ever empty indicates that it was nonexisitant, but if it was nonexistant how could it be empty?
anywho i leave with these quotes
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. " Friedrich Nietzche
"I Do Not Know Whether I Was Then A Man Dreaming I Was A Butterfly, Or Whether I Am Now A Butterfly Dreaming I Am A Man" By Chuang Tzu
-
Love is not the strongest Power in my book.
Love actually causes more problems than it heals.
My absolute favorites are Mercy, Justice, and Punishment.
Working together in unison, those three can solve any and all problems.
IF you were to ask me which is the best of those three, I would say Mercy.
~~Datruth
-
Don't forget to actually go out and live a bit instead of only contemplate life and death, kids. ;)
Words are all nice and pretty on the outside .. but hollow compared to actions.
-
Don't forget to actually go out and live a bit instead of only contemplate life and death, kids. ;)
Words are all nice and pretty on the outside .. but hollow compared to actions.
To live is fine, and i understand your point.
But when all you see around you is temporary and fake, then you need to focus on the afterlife.
Should no such afterlife exist, than we are all doomed.
And meaning tends to lose it's grips with life.
~~Datruth
-
You create your own meaning, it does not come to you sitting behind a computer screen talking like you already know everything.
If all of this is fake, then why waste time here?
-
You create your own meaning, it does not come to you sitting behind a computer screen talking like you already know everything.
If all of this is fake, then why waste time here?
I'm taking your advice ;)
Making the best of it while here, but i'm focused on the next life.
If i had to leave this, to make more time for the next life, i would, thankfully i have enough time for both.
~~Datruth
-
One should dedicate oneself to enjoying what is available to them now rather than waiting to see if there is an afterlife. None can be absoulutly sure that there even is an afterlife so why waste what we know for certain we have now preparing for what may never be?
-
so why waste what we know for certain we have now preparing for what may never be?
Because people are afraid of death.
-
"To live is to die"
That's a Metallica song.
"When a Man Lies He Murders
Some Part of the World
These Are the Pale Deaths With
Which Men Miscall Their Lives
All this I Cannot Bear
to Witness Any Longer
Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation
Take Me Home?"
Life, and everything else, is a continous reaction. Your thoughts, feelings, motion, colors and everything is based on chemical and physical reactions.
Our lives are a response to previous actions that have conditioned everything we do now in a "mathematical" way.
Even these thoughts have a reason. They are the product of an overwhelmed reason, our staring back at what makes us different from the other animals - thought. Instincts are probably the best way to intuit the meaning of life, but in order to succeed as an animal we've been given a suplementary conscience, that, in its constant reasoning, seems sometimes unable to attribute a solid meaning to living. The truth is, it does give a good answer, it just doesn't come in words. It's enough to keep us living, hunting, eating, reproducing, etc.
There is life after death. It's been proven scientifically. Upon your death (and life) you feed and give birth to other living beings. Not referring to human beings alone, but to bacteria, mice, and the other animals as well. Most everything in your body will be eventually used by other living beings. If you consider your life as your mind, then it's true that it will live on as well. It might take a different form though. Or thousands of them.
If you consider you have a soul that will stay the same, and migrate to another body in its exact state... Well, in the universe everything is subject to change. So discard that idea already :P
I believe you can live your life as you wish. Prepare for the afterdeath, live life to its fullest, be a criminal, whatever. You'll have to deal with the conditions human life imposes on you anyway and then suffer the consequences.
-
Truth is this is life is short so enjoy it to the fullest. and no sangwa, the idea of life after death implies the host, not the paricite(sp) continues to live on, our bodies simpley break down and we cease to exist, why does everyone look for meaning in everything when its obvious somethings don't have a meaning, they're just 'THERE'.
I actually find this humorus, a 'religous' moment for the forum eh? Or better yet, do we have a Plato in our generation?... Goody.
I must say I agree with Parallo on this one, asking questions that can never be answered, or making statements that can never be proven, is vanity.
And as for the thing about prayer and your ideas of magical dieties who govern our lives, *points to the crusades* Thats what religon has brought mandkind... Bravo Religon, Bravo.
-
Lets not insult religion now. Thats asking for an argument that is not welcome on the forums. I myself am an atheist but we must respect others and their beliefs.
-
"Love is suicide."
Love is all virtue, since the pleasure of love is but
love, and the pain of love is but love.
Love taketh no heed of that which is not and of that
which is.
Absence exalteth love, and presence exalteth love.
Love moveth ever from height to height of ecstasy
and faileth never.
The wings of love droop not with time, nor slacken
for life or for death.
Love destroyeth self, uniting self with that which is
not-self, so that Love breedeth All and None in
One.
Is it not so?...No?...
Then thou art not lost in love; speak not of love.
Love Alway Yieldeth: Love Alway Hardeneth.
..........May be: I write it but to write Her name.
"To live is to die."
Life is as ugly and necessary as the female body.
Death is as beautiful and necessary as the male
body.
The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond
Life and Death.
Even as the Lingam and the Yoni are but diverse
developments of One Organ, so also are Life and
Death but two phases of One State. So also the
Absolute and the Conditioned are but forms of
THAT.
What do I love? There is no from, no being, to which
I do not give myself wholly up.
Take me, who will!
"Die before you die and be reborn in the light of god."
Death implies change and individuality if thou be
THAT which hath no person, which is beyond the
changing, even beyond changelessness, what hast
thou to do with death?
The bird of individuality is ecstasy; so also is its
death.
In love the individuality is slain; who loves not love?
Love death therefore, and long eagerly for it.
Die Daily.
"One must me empty before one can be full."
Dreams are imperfections of sleep; even so is con-
sciousness the imperfection of waking.
Dreams are impurities in the circulation of the blood;
even so is consciousness a disorder of life.
Dreams are without proportion, without good
sense, without truth; so also is consciousness.
Awake from dream, the truth is known:(16) awake
from waking, the Truth is-The Unknown.
Just a few thoughts from me on this. Mind you, it is just my thoughts at the moment and they may well be different tomorow.
By the way those are exerts from a book called THE BOOK OF LIES WHICH IS ALSO FALSEL CALLED BREAKS. Enjoy :D
-
No religion debates. But at least we all seem to agree on Metallica...
-
No religion debates. But at least we all seem to agree on Metallica...
Yes it is sad but true. Although, when the four horsemen come and hit the lights the dyer maker just may be the thing that should not be. So we welcome home Orion who has been out riding the lightning and kill-'Em all. All this because of the master of puppets thought the disposable hero worked at damage inc. and was busy getting people trapped under ice. All the while there was no remorse for the unforgiving because the shortest straw was drawn and as we all know to live is to die. So now all is blackened as we fade to black. :-X
I couldn't resist writing this.
-
Whatever. But I dont believe in a God. And if there is one, with a light, I will snuff it out.
Love is suicide if your too weak to deal with it.
Living is a disease which in time eats us all.
You cannot be born full, in time you fill up. Perhaps when you are full you die.
-
Love is not the strongest Power in my book.
Love actually causes more problems than it heals.
My absolute favorites are Mercy, Justice, and Punishment.
Working together in unison, those three can solve any and all problems.
IF you were to ask me which is the best of those three, I would say Mercy.
~~Datruth
Then it must be strong too, I can testify that love is stronger than anything else
-
Love is not the strongest Power in my book.
Love actually causes more problems than it heals.
My absolute favorites are Mercy, Justice, and Punishment.
Working together in unison, those three can solve any and all problems.
IF you were to ask me which is the best of those three, I would say Mercy.
~~Datruth
Then it must be strong too, I can testify that love is stronger than anything else
i cant testify, i can only say
in the wild when a mother feels her young is threatened she will do ANYTHING to protect them
i agree that love is the strongest and most universal binding force there is and ever will be
-
Truth is this is life is short so enjoy it to the fullest. and no sangwa, the idea of life after death implies the host, not the paricite(sp) continues to live on, our bodies simpley break down and we cease to exist, why does everyone look for meaning in everything when its obvious somethings don't have a meaning, they're just 'THERE'.
I actually find this humorus, a 'religous' moment for the forum eh? Or better yet, do we have a Plato in our generation?... Goody.
I must say I agree with Parallo on this one, asking questions that can never be answered, or making statements that can never be proven, is vanity.
And as for the thing about prayer and your ideas of magical dieties who govern our lives, *points to the crusades* Thats what religon has brought mandkind... Bravo Religon, Bravo.
If we took your advice, we would have never had the computer or any other current day object, such as the car.
To ask questions we don't know, doesn't mean we won't know one day.
Empirically we might be able to prove god exists or not.
Try Plank Time, hopefully if we can get past that, we'll find some secrets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for love, What good is it in our current day world.
Those without it would go around killing each other, And those with it would PARDON them.
Love is NOTHING without these three: Justice, mercy, and Punishment.
LOVE cannot guide our world.
Someone without love comes, kills someone, Lovers will let him go, This goes on and on and ON forever.
UNTILL you get Justice, and Punishment.
LOVE is not the strongest force, not in my book anyways
~~Datruth
-
For me, the strongest force is the Strong Nuclear force. <.>
I tend to be more of a realist and see aspects of conciousness (and unconsciousness I suppose) purely as mechanical effects of the neurons firing in our brains. They're needed for survival and advancement, a product of evolution and nothing else. Sorry to be the boring one here :P
-
For me, the strongest force is the Strong Nuclear force. <.>
I tend to be more of a realist and see aspects of conciousness (and unconsciousness I suppose) purely as mechanical effects of the neurons firing in our brains. They're needed for survival and advancement, a product of evolution and nothing else. Sorry to be the boring one here :P
Hey xordan, care to tell me where thoughts come from?
Are we all mindless slaves to chaos theory? Am i forcing a response from you, as well as dictating your words by my own?
Or do thoughts have a genuine source, more than just neurons.
What do you feel on the subject.
~~Datruth
-
That's a very interesting topic xD
I believe one of two things:
a) We have no free will, everything has already been decided.
b) We have free will, which is dictated partly by 'chaos theory' (I wouldn't be posting this unless you'd started the thread), but also of our own awareness (I didn't have to respond, I chose to... assuming a) isn't true).
If a) is true... well that would be bad. Let's hope that's not the case. So b) is more likely. What you're asking me is "what do I think consciousness is" in this case, the awareness bit... The easy option is to invent a soul etc. I don't take the easy routes and give up looking for an answer. I admit that it's a possibility, but I don't think it's the case. I think that our consciousness is an effect of quantum mechanics, one which is fueled by the running of our brains, and one which disappears when we die, just like the bubbles disappear in a hot tub when it's turned off. It's the complexity of us that allows this to take effect, and I think the first real AI will come about with quantum computers. Of course I have no evidence, and nobody has an answer yet, but it makes sense (to me) without inventing something out of thin air.
-
/me smiles
That was a great post Xordan, i liked it.
So the randomness of the universe as quantom Mechanics is where our Thoughts come from?
Interesting.... Now....
When I say Eiffel..... do you think Tower?
How is it that i am able to dictate your thoughts, when they are so random.
How is it anyone is able to dictate thoughts, if they be so random.
I can't allow Quantom mechanics to account for my thought, even if it's being shown to be fairly organised or appear so at times.
Thoughts and where they come from, are great questions.
As for chaos Theory, I believe it's all in choice, From the choices you make consequences arise.
But the choice is still there made by you.
~~Datruth
-
When I say Eiffel..... do you think Tower?
How is it that i am able to dictate your thoughts, when they are so random.
Word association is culture-based. Say "Eiffel" to someone who is not familiar with the famous building and you'll get another response entirely.
-
When I say Eiffel..... do you think Tower?
How is it that i am able to dictate your thoughts, when they are so random.
Word association is culture-based. Say "Eiffel" to someone who is not familiar with the famous building and you'll get another response entirely.
I know, you have to know who you're talking to.
Regardless, know who you are talking to and you can dictate their thoughts, through word association as you put it.
That's order, in my eyes.
~~Datruth
-
Dictate? It's never a one-way process - you cannot influence without being influenced. I don't understand what order has to do with it though?
-
/me smiles
That was a great post Xordan, i liked it.
So the randomness of the universe as quantom Mechanics is where our Thoughts come from?
Interesting.... Now....
When I say Eiffel..... do you think Tower?
How is it that i am able to dictate your thoughts, when they are so random.
How is it anyone is able to dictate thoughts, if they be so random.
I can't allow Quantom mechanics to account for my thought, even if it's being shown to be fairly organised or appear so at times.
Thoughts and where they come from, are great questions.
As for chaos Theory, I believe it's all in choice, From the choices you make consequences arise.
But the choice is still there made by you.
~~Datruth
Thoughts don't have to be random. Quantum mechanics isn't a description of randomness, it just has that as a property. Quantum computers (what fundamentals we have of them anyway) wouldn't be possible if everything was random. Consciousness might have randomness as a property too, but it doesn't rule the mind, and I didn't say that our thoughts come from just from randomness. Most of the mind is unconscious, and I think we have little control over that. You say Eiffel, and the neurons fire in my brain, search my memory for the closest relation to Eiffel and come back with Eiffel Tower. That's just proof of mechanics. Is that relation even a property of consciousness? I think most of it isn't. The mind is a mix of the mechanical (unconscious) and the consciousness on top, it's only the consciousness (free will) which I think stems from some quantum aspect, however tiny that may be.
On computer terms, say that the free will part is the user sending requests to the computer, and the computer is the unconscious bit churning away to output the request. Thoughts are just a request and an output :) Thinking is a series of conscious requests for output. The source of the request comes from what I said my definition of consciousness is; just an effect of quantum stuff upon (or even from) complexity.
-
Its interesting about free will. Let us say that I have a subconscious preference for double returns after sentences when composing text messages. I have a choice in that I can put a single or double return after a sentence. But I always choose to put two returns after a sentence because that is my preference. Is that really free will, or do our preferences in life bind us to predetermined outcomes while still giving us the impression that we are making free choices?
-
Its interesting about free will. Let us say that I have a subconscious preference for double returns after sentences when composing text messages. I have a choice in that I can put a single or double return after a sentence. But I always choose to put two returns after a sentence because that is my preference. Is that really free will, or do our preferences in life bind us to predetermined outcomes while still giving us the impression that we are making free choices?
The ability to question Free will shows it's working.
And if no choice in any matter by us is considered free, THAN we need to release all inmates in jail now.
Because they are only a circumstance of a problem, which is rooted in the absense of free will.
~~Datruth
Anyone who thinks that way needs to say Hello to a Murderer, and understand the Murderer had a choice.
-
Its interesting about free will. Let us say that I have a subconscious preference for double returns after sentences when composing text messages. I have a choice in that I can put a single or double return after a sentence. But I always choose to put two returns after a sentence because that is my preference. Is that really free will, or do our preferences in life bind us to predetermined outcomes while still giving us the impression that we are making free choices?
I think that counts as free will still, assuming that we have free will at all. At least, you do have the ability to stop and say "I want to use a single return", even if mechanically you tend to use a double return. Datruth highlights a major problem that we would have if it were discovered that we don't have any free will.... do we say that criminals couldn't be held responsible for their actions? Let's hope this isn't the case and that Einstein was wrong on this one :P.
-
Belief is existance. Belief makes things exist.
This is your world. Nothing exists unless you believe in it. Over a thousand years ago the world was flat. Now it's round. Why? At some point, somebody decided the world was round, believed it, and spread that belief. The belief spread and spread until that belief became yours. So now your world is round.
You can't prove I exist. I could be a figment of your imagination, or a complex computer program, or a dream. The only thing is that I tell you I exist, and you believe me. And so I do.
Take it like this: I have a friend named Barry. Until you read this sentence, he didn't exist. He knew he existed, I knew he existed, but you didn't, and so he didn't exist.
(As you can see, my belief-system is a little hard to explain... :P)
-
Belief is existance. Belief makes things exist.
This is your world. Nothing exists unless you believe in it. Over a thousand years ago the world was flat. Now it's round. Why? At some point, somebody decided the world was round, believed it, and spread that belief. The belief spread and spread until that belief became yours. So now your world is round.
You can't prove I exist. I could be a figment of your imagination, or a complex computer program, or a dream. The only thing is that I tell you I exist, and you believe me. And so I do.
Take it like this: I have a friend named Barry. Until you read this sentence, he didn't exist. He knew he existed, I knew he existed, but you didn't, and so he didn't exist.
(As you can see, my belief-system is a little hard to explain... :P)
Just a side not eon your starting phrase there, if you took someone from the third world country who lets say for scenerio's sake, had never seen a lightbulb, who believed light in itself was god... And you showed him your fridge, and told him that when you opened it it would light up... He probaly wouldn't believe you...
So if you walk away, and he opens that fridge not believing that the light will come on, will the light not come on?...
Riiiight, believing makes things exist... nice one plato.
-
/me looks at how the thread has manifested and mutated from a simple few words :offtopic:. Good job
Zani, \\o// you only had to make one post this time. :oops:
-
Eldoth smiles at Datruth and Xordan, and goes back to wondering how he can prove that the box really has a cat in it...
-
/me looks at how the thread has manifested and mutated from a simple few words :offtopic:. Good job
Zani, \\o// you only had to make one post this time. :oops:
Would you care to elaborate on your idiotic remark? I'm searching it for any valid content but I must be too stupid to see it.
-
/me looks at how the thread has manifested and mutated from a simple few words :offtopic:. Good job
Zani, \\o// you only had to make one post this time. :oops:
Would you care to elaborate on your idiotic remark? I'm searching it for any valid content but I must be too stupid to see it.
OOOHHH! Pick Me Monty! I know what he meant!
He meant your original post was meaningless fluff (my evaluation) but it generated discussion.
Oh, and love is a chemical imbalance that has no greater meaning. Abstract ideas are just that, abstract and have no basis in reality.
I think we are a bunch of grey blobs, which are telepathically linked, floating in an endless void. The world that we think we see is just the result of mass delusion.
Step right up! Get yer existentialism here!
-
/me looks at how the thread has manifested and mutated from a simple few words :offtopic:. Good job
Zani, \\o// you only had to make one post this time. :oops:
Would you care to elaborate on your idiotic remark? I'm searching it for any valid content but I must be too stupid to see it.
OOOHHH! Pick Me Monty! I know what he meant!
He meant your original post was meaningless fluff (my evaluation) but it generated discussion.
Oh, and love is a chemical imbalance that has no greater meaning. Abstract ideas are just that, abstract and have no basis in reality.
I think we are a bunch of grey blobs, which are telepathically linked, floating in an endless void. The world that we think we see is just the result of mass delusion.
Step right up! Get yer existentialism here!
You obviously don't, otherwise we would all be grey blobs. Duh. :P
If you really thought you are a grey blob, and that life is just your super-powered imagination, why don't you kill yourself? I mean, it's not like you can't imagine some other life for yourself. Maybe you could be a millionaire in the next dream...
But you won't, because that's not what you believe.
Belief is existance. Belief makes things exist.
Just a side not eon your starting phrase there, if you took someone from the third world country who lets say for scenerio's sake, had never seen a lightbulb, who believed light in itself was god... And you showed him your fridge, and told him that when you opened it it would light up... He probaly wouldn't believe you...
So if you walk away, and he opens that fridge not believing that the light will come on, will the light not come on?...
Riiiight, believing makes things exist... nice one plato.
No... once you tell him that it would light up, the belief is there, regardless of what he originally believed. The fact that he opens the fridge to check if there really is a light inside there means he's already starting to believe.
Now, if he really didn't believe there was a light inside the fridge, he would think checking that there is to be completely futile (the same way you don't check to make sure there's not a monster living in your television), which would mean the light wouldn't be there.
See how that works? (You see, it's one of those things that's impossible to disprove...)
-
okay suppose a child believes theres a monster in his closet, and there is actually a rattelsnake, so he calls for his father, his father KNOWS, theres nothing there, he opens the door believeing there wont be anything in there, why does he open it? to show the child theres nothing there... does that mean the rattelsnake would.... disappear?
nope...
things exist with or without our concent, like it or not, we have no control over what will be behind the next door we open, because whats there is there, and believing other wise wont change it.
-
okay suppose a child believes theres a monster in his closet, and there is actually a rattelsnake, so he calls for his father, his father KNOWS, theres nothing there, he opens the door believeing there wont be anything in there, why does he open it? to show the child theres nothing there... does that mean the rattelsnake would.... disappear?
nope...
things exist with or without our concent, like it or not, we have no control over what will be behind the next door we open, because whats there is there, and believing other wise wont change it.
But, you see, that's my next point. 'Belief' isn't just believing in a certain concept, be it religion or whether or not there's a monster in the closet. Belief is also believing your senses.
Your eyes see a rattlesnake. Your ears hear a rattlesnake. Your skin feels the rattlesnake. Your nose smells the rattlesnake.
And so you believe it exists
If you were blind, deaf, numb, and anosmic - that is, you had no way of perceiving, and thus believing - would the rattlesnake really exist?
-
yes, you'ed just be oblivious to it, it would exist because if you tripped and fell on one and it bite you, and you died... what would they say at the outopsy(sp??)
truth is, being oblivious to something doesn't make it any less real.
-
yes, you'ed just be oblivious to it, it would exist because if you tripped and fell on one and it bite you, and you died... what would they say at the outopsy(sp??)
truth is, being oblivious to something doesn't make it any less real.
Of course it does. When was the last time you were blind deaf numb and anosmic and got attacked by a rattlesnake? Sure, you might see a blind, deaf, numb, anosmic guy get killed by a rattlesnake, but that's only because you believe that the rattlesnake will kill that guy.
It doesn't just apply to objects existing either. If you believe that God influences everything, then God will influence everything, regardless of what other people might tell you. If you stop believing in God, then he stops existing, and suddenly everything that you thought was divine will is just coincidence. Because you changed your belief, you've changed the nature of reality.
Other people might have different beliefs than yours, but they are automatically wrong, because you believe they're wrong.
-
So if I believe that we are nothing but grey blobs whose world picture is informed by mental leakage from adjacent grey blobs it must be true? After all none of you blobs can see reality for what it is, only me. Therefor if I assure you you are nothing but grey blobs you must believe me although you will never see for yourself.
Actually I am quite happy to live in this artificial construct which is the world as it appears to be. Endless ranks of grey blobs in a void would be a most boring thing to see if any had eyes to see it with.
-
Well as much as I enjoyed this small debate I can say for sure theres no way I can convience you that believing isn't everything, as much as you can conveince me it is.
none the less, power to the grey blobs! :sorcerer:
-
So if I believe that we are nothing but grey blobs whose world picture is informed by mental leakage from adjacent grey blobs it must be true? After all none of you blobs can see reality for what it is, only me. Therefor if I assure you you are nothing but grey blobs you must believe me although you will never see for yourself.
Actually I am quite happy to live in this artificial construct which is the world as it appears to be. Endless ranks of grey blobs in a void would be a most boring thing to see if any had eyes to see it with.
Exactly. If you believed I was a grey blob, truly believed, then I would be a grey blob in your eyes. To me, I wouldn't be, because I don't believe I'm a grey blob, but you are the one who is right, because you are the only person you can really be sure exists, and so your reality is the correct one.
Well as much as I enjoyed this small debate I can say for sure theres no way I can convience you that believing isn't everything, as much as you can conveince me it is.
none the less, power to the grey blobs! :sorcerer:
Right. Because that's what you believe. And since, for all you know, I'm a figment of your imagination, there's no reason for you to believe what I believe.
-
So if I believe that we are nothing but grey blobs whose world picture is informed by mental leakage from adjacent grey blobs it must be true? After all none of you blobs can see reality for what it is, only me. Therefor if I assure you you are nothing but grey blobs you must believe me although you will never see for yourself.
Actually I am quite happy to live in this artificial construct which is the world as it appears to be. Endless ranks of grey blobs in a void would be a most boring thing to see if any had eyes to see it with.
Exactly. If you believed I was a grey blob, truly believed, then I would be a grey blob in your eyes. To me, I wouldn't be, because I don't believe I'm a grey blob, but you are the one who is right, because you are the only person you can really be sure exists, and so your reality is the correct one.
Yeah see, thats not fact, 'round here we like to call that.... A view point
Theres something called a modify button... don't double post.
-
So if I believe that we are nothing but grey blobs whose world picture is informed by mental leakage from adjacent grey blobs it must be true? After all none of you blobs can see reality for what it is, only me. Therefor if I assure you you are nothing but grey blobs you must believe me although you will never see for yourself.
Actually I am quite happy to live in this artificial construct which is the world as it appears to be. Endless ranks of grey blobs in a void would be a most boring thing to see if any had eyes to see it with.
Exactly. If you believed I was a grey blob, truly believed, then I would be a grey blob in your eyes. To me, I wouldn't be, because I don't believe I'm a grey blob, but you are the one who is right, because you are the only person you can really be sure exists, and so your reality is the correct one.
Yeah see, thats not fact, 'round here we like to call that.... A view point
Theres something called a modify button... don't double post.
And here I thought 'double-posting' was accidentally hitting the post button twice and posting the same thing twice...
Anyway, a view point implies that you aren't necessarily right. I'm saying that all of reality is yours, and so you can color it or shape it with how you perceive/believe it to be. View point means 6 billion realities exist that conflict with each other. That's not possible. 1 reality exists. Yours.
-
So that guy locked up in the insane asylum really is Napoleon, Jesus, Mohammed or whoever else he thinks he is?
Now I don't really believe in grey blobs but I could expand it to counter any objection you can think of and cannot be proven wrong. I am not going to try to do that but if I wanted to do so perhaps I could found the next great world religion by freely stealing concepts from all the older ones and applying them to my base scenario just as they did with the religions before them. I likely do not have the force of personality to accomplish such a grandiose task.
As far as 6 billion realities goes that is not true, there is one reality and nobody perceives it accurately
-
So that guy locked up in the insane asylum really is Napoleon, Jesus, Mohammed or whoever else he thinks he is?
If you think he is, sure. If you think he isn't, then he isn't.
Now I don't really believe in grey blobs but I could expand it to counter any objection you can think of and cannot be proven wrong. I am not going to try to do that but if I wanted to do so perhaps I could found the next great world religion by freely stealing concepts from all the older ones and applying them to my base scenario just as they did with the religions before them. I likely do not have the force of personality to accomplish such a grandiose task.
What's your point? That's how Scientology was started :D
As far as 6 billion realities goes that is not true, there is one reality and nobody perceives it accurately
And how do you know that?
-
1. I don't think he is but he believes it completely, who am I to argue.
2. Why do you single out Scientology?
3. Isn't sophistry (http://m-w.com/dictionary/sophistry) fun?
-
I do agree with emeraldfool in this discussion. But it's actually a definition problem. If you believe in one absolute "true world" in which we all live and of which we all see different parts, Ithorius and Bilbous are completely right. If I think the world is flat, it still isn't flat in the "true world".
If you, on the other hand, drop the idea of a "true world" and say that world is only what we see and hear about it, then the people really lived on a flat word, 1000 year ago. If you take it that way, everybody lives in a different world. If someone thinks he is Napoleon, then for him he really is. For all the other people, he's not, but truth is no democracy.
I think it's fair to drop the "true world" though. Someone who is blind lives in a different world, even if he lives on the same planet. Our senses are limited, so in a way we are all blind. Our world as we know it, is only what our brain in combination with our senses can derive from it. It will always be a derivative. That's why the concept of a "the true" world is rather useless, as we can never quantify it. I would be 100% empty.
If you say "the people back then lived on a round world, even if they thought they lived on a flat world, because now we know that the world is round, because we saw it with our satellites" you're pasting personal knowledge on the "true world" and extrapolate it. The question is if that's valid. We can never constitute a perfect "true world" or even parts of it, when all we have is dirty info. Especially since we don't know in which way the info is blurred and shifted. I'd say it's fair to neglect the "true world" since we don't even know if it really exists.
This is not only a wacky philosophy; modern science doesn't use a "true world" theory either. It turns the idea of a true world on its head. In science, something is true as long as it describes the world as we see it in the best way. If a new theory describes the world better, we would consider the old theory to be false and the new one to be true. Scientific truth changes and starts with personal experience. Scientific truth accepts the fact that it's not perfect but that it's 'the best truth we have'. It is valid to consider science a way of approaching the "true world" though.
End of rant, I hope it made some sense :)
-
Now I don't really believe in grey blobs but I could expand it to counter any objection you can think of and cannot be proven wrong. I am not going to try to do that but if I wanted to do so perhaps I could found the next great world religion by freely stealing concepts from all the older ones and applying them to my base scenario just as they did with the religions before them. I likely do not have the force of personality to accomplish such a grandiose task.
What's your point? That's how Scientology was started :D
scientology is a joke religon... if anything.
-
Truth is this is life is short so enjoy it to the fullest. and no sangwa, the idea of life after death implies the host, not the paricite(sp) continues to live on, our bodies simpley break down and we cease to exist, why does everyone look for meaning in everything when its obvious somethings don't have a meaning, they're just 'THERE'.
Define host. If you do not consider the host to be what it consists of... Than... What is it? I can't quite grasp the meaning of you words. Parasite? I said that as an example. A parasite feeds off of you. It keeps part of yourself in it. In fact, it lives by turning your materia into its. So if we consider afterlife your materia living afterwards your old whole, then it could be considered a form of it. If don't consider it, then there is no chance such thing exists. Since your whole won't ever be the same again.
If you can't agree that you are not what you're made of, but simply a result of it that lives in the present... Then the you you were 5 years ago can not be considered the you you currently are. Therefore it isn't you, but someone else. Fun right?
And I said your mind gives you good answers, but that they might not come in words. So they're just there :P. I am not saying I know what the meaning of life is either. I am merely saying somewhere in our minds we ackowledge it and live on.
This topic is fun. And it's fun to realize things and then have a revelation and discard them all. Only to replace them again with new theories. Science just tells you you live. And you do so. So it's right. Why? Science has no such answers. And if you think for a while, you'll see nothing else does :D. As you can keep asking "Why?" until everything makes no sense.
*grins*
Bilbous, if you we all were something without sight then we wouldn't be grey.
"Now, I can truely die." Just now? Hah. I've known I can truely die for quite some time.
-
Abstract ideas are just that, abstract and have no basis in reality.
There are a number of sociological schools of thought that would disagree with you. They would tend to argue that people give abstract representations realization through action, and therefore ideas and subjective definitions are given objective reality, but only to the extent that a particular audience grants.
scientology is a joke religon... if anything.
Scientology has over 100,000 members. They don't see it as a joke.
-
If I raised a child in solitude and made him believe he could fly through the air unsupported by any machine or anything, just fly, and made him truly believe it because he had never heard anything to say other wise, would he be able to fly?
-
This discussion has gone way off it's original point, i'd like to requote what zanzibar wrote:
"Love is suicide."
"To live is to die."
"Die before you die and be reborn in the light of god."
"One must me empty before one can be full."
Maybe, one day some of you will understand all of this The rest of you never will and you will instead live normal lives.
Pray for longevity.
This is about realising the truth in life and dieing on the inside.
Bilbous is right, THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE TRUTHS, there is only what we have, our senses.
We could all be in the matrix, or his blob world as he put it.
You need some level of belief, that's rooted in facts and rationalization.
WE ALL AGREE life is to be lived, but with the INTENTION OF the future.
So if our future life get's in the way of this life, we make arrangements to fix it, so we can accomodate our next life.
NO ONE is saying don't have fun, HAVE FUN, but don't go crazy , THIS IS all temporary.
IT's been called a dream, that when awakened, you see the real life, it goes by fast.
Nothing in our life is Permanent, not even people, WHy trade this world for the next?
~~Datruth
-
Nothing in our life is Permanent, not even people, WHy trade this world for the next?[/b][/u]
~~Datruth
For those of use who don't believe in a next life, then why waste this one preparing? :)
-
As for love, What good is it in our current day world.
Those without it would go around killing each other, And those with it would PARDON them.
Love is NOTHING without these three: Justice, mercy, and Punishment.
LOVE cannot guide our world.
Someone without love comes, kills someone, Lovers will let him go, This goes on and on and ON forever.
UNTILL you get Justice, and Punishment.
LOVE is not the strongest force, not in my book anyways
~~Datruth
as a romantic and an extreme idealist i cant beleive you jsut said that. to say love is defined by 3 things...is jsut a little disgusting. i dont mean this as a personal attack just as my view on what youre saying :flowers:
love and justice. thats extremely conditional. love, TRUE lOVE is not at all conditional. its a binding force that creates something exquisite between how ever many people. just becase you lvoe soeone and they die does not mean that you ahve lsot love. you will always love that person. Just becase you can be with someone else doesnt discredit it.
the only reason why love doesnt "do" much in the world is because not everyone wants it.
why would you want love when you can have a gun in your house? why would you want love when you can conquer someone else? why would you want love when you can so easily have lust?
i just beleive that if we didnt have all this crap diverting our attention (like money perhaps) than people would get to see how beautiful a falling leaf is, our how wondrous the shades are on a tree...or the beautiful melody of a singing bird...or the gentle coo of a baby
THATS what love is about. its something that cannot be held or touched it just IS...it is for the sake of being
sorry, like i said this is not a personal attack :flowers: i jsut cant see love being defined like that, it goes against what i believe in *hugs*
-
Well, I have to admit that I don't understand much of Zanzibars initial quotes, not even after reading the many explanations in this thread. The thing I find rather odd is what he says afterwards though.
Maybe, one day some of you will understand all of this The rest of you never will and you will instead live normal lives.
It sounds a rather elitist IMO. Like if you (Zanzibar) have found some higher truth, which not everybody will ever find. The rest instead will live "normal lives". Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying: "the rest lives an incomplete life". Like they never got the point, and you do.
I think a division between 'illuminati' and 'normals' is always fake. We're all human, and wisdom is always relative.
Besides that, I think that quotes are way over rated. Seriously. To me wisdom always has to do with nuances, not with one-liners.
Can't say much about love. Currently it's extremely hard for me to fall in love, and I'm pretty sure I don't fully live if it will stay that way. On the other hand I know it's bound to change with time and chance, so I don't worry too much about it. I do feel a great love for humanity as a whole though, but that's a different kind of love. Just to make clear I'm not a stone emotionally, far from so.
Things like Justice and Punishment mean literally nothing to me. Punishment can be neccessary for practical reasons but never to aid the concept of justice, which is of no value to me. Same goes for laws. I can make my own ethics. In fact, I think that making your own ethical standards is one of the important things to do in life. Breaking them might be an other. :)
-
It sounds a rather elitist IMO. Like if you (Zanzibar) have found some higher truth, which not everybody will ever find.
Your point?
-
Well, if it's the case that you think that you've found a higher truth that not everybody would be able to find, wouldn't that be elitist?
So the questions are: do you think you've found a higher truth? And if so do you think that is elitist, and if so, do you think that is an attitude that can allow you to stay open minded?
-
Well, if it's the case that you think that you've found a higher truth that not everybody would be able to find, wouldn't that be elitist?
So the questions are: do you think you've found a higher truth? And if so do you think that is elitist, and if so, do you think that is an attitude that can allow you to stay open minded?
What's wrong with being elitist if you happen to be better than everyone else?
-
It makes everyone hate you? :P Also it makes you look really dumb because the chances are you're not better than everyone else. If you are better than everyone else, then other people will probably notice and you wouldn't have to tell them.
-
What's wrong with being elitist if you happen to be better than everyone else?
If that's the case, nothing. The problem however is that IMO nobody is better than everybody else and I think it's quite dangerous even to think so. Why would you be better then everybody else?
Besides that, what's to point of communicating with others when you're better then everybody esle? To teach them? Personly I find a debate between equals more fruitfull.
-
Besides that, what's to point of communicating with others when you're better then everybody esle? To teach them? Personly I find a debate between equals more fruitfull.
To fill an over-inflated ego :)
-
It sounds a rather elitist IMO. Like if you (Zanzibar) have found some higher truth, which not everybody will ever find.
Your point?
i get what hes saying, i had the same feeling about it. to me it sounds like youre being a tragic elitist. i dunnos if thats how it is but when i read it i thought "alas, poor me! im so wonderfulyl intelligent and no one who understands as i do must surely be inferior and left to living a "normal" life."
whatever works works i supose *huggggs* :flowers:
-
It makes everyone hate you? :P Also it makes you look really dumb because the chances are you're not better than everyone else. If you are better than everyone else, then other people will probably notice and you wouldn't have to tell them.
Fortunately, I'm secure enough with my superiority that I don't require that other people notice it.
-
Fortunately, I'm secure enough with my superiority that I don't require that other people notice it.
Well, if that's the case, do you care to answer the two question of my previous post: why are you better?, and why do you communicate with others?
Thanks :)
-
It makes everyone hate you? :P Also it makes you look really dumb because the chances are you're not better than everyone else. If you are better than everyone else, then other people will probably notice and you wouldn't have to tell them.
Fortunately, I'm secure enough with my superiority that I don't require that other people notice it.
Then why bother saying anything at all? :P
-
It makes everyone hate you? :P Also it makes you look really dumb because the chances are you're not better than everyone else. If you are better than everyone else, then other people will probably notice and you wouldn't have to tell them.
Fortunately, I'm secure enough with my superiority that I don't require that other people notice it.
Then why bother saying anything at all? :P
I feel pity for the masses.
-
You feel pity that they don't know of your superiority so you have to tell them? Isn't that a total contradiction to "I don't require that other people notice it."? ;)
-
It makes everyone hate you? :P Also it makes you look really dumb because the chances are you're not better than everyone else. If you are better than everyone else, then other people will probably notice and you wouldn't have to tell them.
Fortunately, I'm secure enough with my superiority that I don't require that other people notice it.
Then why bother saying anything at all? :P
I feel pity for the masses.
and i love all the masses and minorities *hugs*
-
You feel pity that they don't know of your superiority so you have to tell them? Isn't that a total contradiction to "I don't require that other people notice it."? ;)
Since it is a total contradiction, perhaps your logic and conclusions are flawed. :)
-
scientology is a joke religon... if anything.
Scientology has over 100,000 members. They don't see it as a joke.
At least four times that many people have commited suicide between now and the discovery of america... just because people do it doesn't mean it isn't any less idiotic... you obviously need to read more into scientology to under stand the utter stupidity of it... if anything its just another BS way of collecting money from the naieve.... Like Tom Cruise... mr. sofa jumper...
-
scientology is a joke religon... if anything.
Scientology has over 100,000 members. They don't see it as a joke.
At least four times that many people have commited suicide between now and the discovery of america... just because people do it doesn't mean it isn't any less idiotic... you obviously need to read more into scientology to under stand the utter stupidity of it... if anything its just another BS way of collecting money from the naieve
I actually have a very good understanding of Scientology. I think it's silly, yet over 100,000 people subscribe to its system of belief, including a number of people of influence, and they don't see it as a joke.
-
scientology is a joke religon... if anything.
Scientology has over 100,000 members. They don't see it as a joke.
At least four times that many people have commited suicide between now and the discovery of america... just because people do it doesn't mean it isn't any less idiotic... you obviously need to read more into scientology to under stand the utter stupidity of it... if anything its just another BS way of collecting money from the naieve
I actually have a very good understanding of Scientology. I think it's silly, yet over 100,000 people subscribe to its system of belief, including a number of people of influence, and they don't see it as a joke.
That is true... but then again I think all religons are silly... I don't find people that believe that wearing aluminum foil on their heads during discussions of zemu (or whatever the hell hes called)... Its like something from a sci-fi movie... but i'll end this rant on the stupidity of those who mindlessly follow figureheads to the grave.
-
/me laughs in utter amusement at the conversation thus far.
You say tomato I say apples and oranges. \\o//
This is a delightful debate.
O.K. I'm gonna watch Beerfest now.
-
You feel pity that they don't know of your superiority so you have to tell them? Isn't that a total contradiction to "I don't require that other people notice it."? ;)
Since it is a total contradiction, perhaps your logic and conclusions are flawed. :)
Maybe, or maybe you're not so superior. Who knows <.> Superiority is something measured by others, for one can believe in anything he likes :) Who is more superior, one who sits around with little or no achievement to show but happy in the belief that he is more enlightened than others, or one who goes out and achieves something and earns respect in the eyes of others?
-
You feel pity that they don't know of your superiority so you have to tell them? Isn't that a total contradiction to "I don't require that other people notice it."? ;)
Since it is a total contradiction, perhaps your logic and conclusions are flawed. :)
Maybe, or maybe you're not so superior. Who knows <.> Superiority is something measured by others, for one can believe in anything he likes :) Who is more superior, one who sits around with little or no achievement to show but happy in the belief that he is more enlightened than others, or one who goes out and achieves something and earns respect in the eyes of others?
Again, you're posing a false dilemma (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html).
-
Oh my goodness there is a disturbance in the void! Blob # Z4nz184r has been eminating crippling images of inferiority at his adjacent Blobs. Move away! Move away, or be stricken by his evil leakage. Any of you Blobs with poor receptors and over powered transmitters move in and project acceptance at him. The World-View must be stabilized or a catastrophe will occur! Cat-ast-ro-phe must be prevented.
-
Z4nz184r has been eminating evil leakage at Blobs with poor receptors.
??? I give you permission to make sense.
-
:whistling: this is getting a little off topic i would suppose...its getting too repetive. zanzibars an elitist, hes admitted to that. big deal.
-
You are not making any sense so why should I? By the way it is extremely poor form to quote somebody things they did not say. Someone who is claiming superiority should know that. I did say all of those words but not in that way, you could have expressed that more appropriately thus: "Z4nz184r has been eminating ... (http://m-w.com/dictionary/ellipsis) evil leakage ...(at)... Blobs with poor receptors". Surely you know that.
-
By the way it is extremely poor form to quote somebody things they did not say.
Fortunately, I don't really care. :-D
-
Seems we've said everything we were going to say, so to do my duties....................