PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Garile on December 17, 2006, 04:30:32 am
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Question. ;)
How many animals from our planet are also in Yliakum? Seeing if I'm not mistaken one of the books mentiones goats I believe being here. It made me wonder how many are here seeing how the horse seems to be denied eventhough it has been asked. (not that I want a horse ;) give me a big riding cat everyday.).
If we asume the humans have been send there from earth in the midevil times you would asume they would bring lifestock with them. I mean if one would move through a magical portal to a distant planet would you bring stuff with you to make sure you had something to eat and to survive? However if this were the case what kind of animals did they bring and what not? Cows, goats, horses, pigs seem to be the animals they would bring themselves. Fleas and rats and such that would hitch a ride.
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I believe quite some time ago, the topic of horses was brought up since someone had noticed it in game being mentioned in a book or something. I'd have to to do a bit of searching on the forums though. I don't remember what the outcome (if any) of that discussion was, at this time, though.
Edit, restructured sentances for better clarity. :)
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cattle are. Saw it somewhere.
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But why no cats to eat the rats?
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But why no cats to eat the rats?
they would have to be BIG cats to eat those rats
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But why no cats to eat the rats?
they would have to be BIG cats to eat those rats
You mean bigger than enkis? ;)
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enkis are not cats
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I wonder, shuldn't ther be a created list of animals, their descriptions and all need info ? This should have been made a long time ago, before the books were written. The fact we have animals from real life really spoils the game experience - this if they weren't supposed to be there. I don't know what to think about it, would be great if someone explained it.
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Well personally I would like to have no animals from the real world at all or don't make a problem at all with having them ingame. It's just really strange to be so strangely oposed to horses and still have goats and sheep ingame. Know someone ingame who is playing to have a cat. Now personally I would never RP that, but who knows if sheep and goats are allowed to have why not cats?
Thats why I am wondering what animals are and what animals are not so to have a better understanding of what is possible seeing atleast some seem to have been "brought along"
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Can't we just say 'a lot of terran animals are hanging around', and just RP whatever we want? I hate this obsession with wanting to strip away every shred of artistic freedom as humanly possible :P
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Why are the rats so big anyway?
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Why are the rats so big anyway?
A steady diet of clumsy n00bs...
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cattle are. Saw it somewhere.
You saw it in game, in a book, in Jayose library.
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wanting to strip away every shred of artistic freedom as humanly possible :P
I don't actually get the connection between "copying from RL" and "artistic freedom". I have always tried to avoid references to RL animals, with some rare exceptions that had no significance in RP. IOW, it isn't much of a problem AFAICS.
Still, a list of "PS approved" animals would be good, possibly amanded by the degree of similarity to their RL counterparts, since exact details aren't necessary / possibly ATM.
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Not only a list of animals, but to what they are used too. It looks like life of Yliakum people is highly connected with differet aimals. We need to know about these if we are supposed to RP there.
I have also small suggestion. Animals shouldn't look like some ugly creations from some cheap horror. I suppose the monsters which are created for now are supposed to look bad, so that you have no doubt that you are doing the right thing, killing it... but that is not the right direction. Do we have any animals like these IR ? Not really.
For example hippopotamus, it is big and sometimes can be really dangerous (seriously, it isn't so peacefull as you could think) sound like example of PS monster. What is the difference? Hippopotamus isn't really ugly, each animal IR has some beauty, while in PS they don't. Wolves, tigers, do we have in PS any animals agile in smiliar way?
What about livestock animals? These also has some certain shape and line.
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I'm quite fond of the little clackers myself. My favorite model in the game. Perhaps you just aren't a bug person.
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hmm like the clackers a lot myself. ;)
Can't we just say 'a lot of terran animals are hanging around', and just RP whatever we want? I hate this obsession with wanting to strip away every shred of artistic freedom as humanly possible :P
It's not about artistic freedom. It's about there being no clear guidelines. First it was there were no links to RL lifeforms exept perhaps rats and clackers being big mutated forms of what we knowbut now there are referances ingame that there are goats and such.
This makes the setting rather confusing in my opinion becuase it means some people roleplay them not existing what seems to be to far seeing the book, but others who are now bringing in creatures like cats who aren't refered to in books and are from RL. It's hard to RP a world if there are a lot of people roleplaying it differently from eachother.
Obviously this is the case with several things like religion where we also know nothing about eventhough it should influence our day to day life imensely, but hope that now there are referances in books and such the devs reponsible for setting have thought about this and could perhaps clarify more clearly where the line is.
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Clackers are indeed good, they have something in them.
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Ah yes Clackers (http://www.bigredtoybox.com/cgi-bin/toynfo.pl?clackersindex), or those of us Canadians of a certain age will recall, Fuddle Duddle Balls!
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/me pokes the two posters above and giggles
We aren't turning it into the "we love clackers" thread ;)
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Having animals from the real world is no problem, since humans do live in Yliakum. But, if you're gonna have all these animals from our world, you'll have to make Yliakum's own animals, plus all the animals brought from all of the other racial homelands to balance it out.
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'Artistic freedom' is about not following rules. Or, at least, bending the rules in a way that surprises or shocks people. If everyone does the same thing - e.g. you're forced to have 'Yikass', and 'Manteras' and 'Pikachus' as pets, and nothing else, because nothing else exists in Yliakum - then you're limiting the characters. Maybe they want to RP that they have a raven or tiger as a familiar (maybe it's their friend, maybe it's so they can RP situations where the raven can scout ahead and tell them things telepathically), but there's no Planeshift version of it yet, so they are thusly not allowed to express themselves artistically.
The thing I think is really going on, is people want to make a strict set of rules just so they can have an excuse to flame newbies for 'not following them'. :P Yer all n00b-haters...
I don't have a problem with having original animals added, but I think we should be able to do what we like as far as personal pets go.
Next thing you know, there'll be rules about being crazy ('cause crazy people were stoned to death), or maybe being evil ('cause evil people were put in jail or hung) ... facist n00b-haters, the lotta ya... :P
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Does that mean I can have a pet dwarf? They are small and fuzzy and cuddly after all.
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newbies for 'not following them'. Tongue Yer all n00b-haters
Just to make a mountain out of a mole hill here but to quote wikipedia:
"The term newb itself is usually used to refer to a person who is new to the field in question, whereas noob is used as an insult. "
So if you can rationalise hating things in general then hating "noobs" should be perfectly acceptable.
Oh and Bilbous you can have this dwarf, I found him outside:
(http://radyr.cardiff.sch.uk/~peter.jenkins/StoneBreakerSmile.gif)
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I have also small suggestion. Animals shouldn't look like some ugly creations from some cheap horror. I suppose the monsters which are created for now are supposed to look bad, so that you have no doubt that you are doing the right thing, killing it... but that is not the right direction. Do we have any animals like these IR ? Not really.
For example hippopotamus, it is big and sometimes can be really dangerous (seriously, it isn't so peacefull as you could think) sound like example of PS monster. What is the difference? Hippopotamus isn't really ugly, each animal IR has some beauty, while in PS they don't. Wolves, tigers, do we have in PS any animals agile in smiliar way?
What about livestock animals? These also has some certain shape and line.
Agreed, and to go a bit further into this, IMO anatomy should really be taken into account when creating monsters. Anybody else thought of how hard it must be for trefusangs and ulberanaughts to eat, or how they manage to digest their food?
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'Artistic freedom' is about not following rules. Or, at least, bending the rules in a way that surprises or shocks people.
Ah, I think we're getting to the core now. I think that this isn't actually about animals and why it is / is not realistic to have them in PS. I think it is about people wanting to do whatever they like, regardless of what the settings says or implies, or what is stated to be OK or not. IOW, it's a veiled version of the "It's Fantasy!!!!!" non-argument.
If everyone does the same thing - e.g. you're forced to have 'Yikass', and 'Manteras' and 'Pikachus' as pets, and nothing else, because nothing else exists in Yliakum - then you're limiting the characters.
Yup, you are. And rightfully so. Just like you don't RP spaceships, or guns in PS. It's called "settings", and a pretty common thing in RP. So unless you're leaving PS and making your own RP world, you'll have to stay within PS's one. Artistic freedom also doesn't mean that you can do whatever you like. People will still have to get what you're saying.
You may bend the rules to, for example, have a pet that isn't implemented but planned, or to have an animal as pet that isn't implemented as pet (like a clacker). But you can't RP things that don't exist in the settings, or that cannot be reasonably assumed to exist. It's why few poems consist of jumbled characters.
Maybe they want to RP that they have a raven or tiger as a familiar (maybe it's their friend, maybe it's so they can RP situations where the raven can scout ahead and tell them things telepathically), but there's no Planeshift version of it yet, so they are thusly not allowed to express themselves artistically.
If it's planned to be in PS, then OK. If not, then no. How do you RP something that you don't know anything about? Replacing it with RL things isn't OK, because it'll obviously conflict with the PS version later on. You're invalidating your "art" in doing so, and that of all others who play along with you, too.
I don't have a problem with having original animals added, but I think we should be able to do what we like as far as personal pets go.
Because personal pets realistically come into existance by the owner's sheer will, and therefore don't need to be bound by any stupid things like genetics, or just general realism?
You are prefectly fine to do /tell RP with yourself, RPing chasing your pet Ulbernaut through your space station while shooting Kran at incoming mecha-ravens, as long as you don't tell anyone.
Speaking of ulbernauts... the number of "characters" who allegedly own a pet Ulbernaut is astonishing, especially given that an Ulbernaut is neither stupid nor peaceful, nor small or easily intimidated. IRL, pet tigers aren't working terribly well, and these are small compared to Ulbernauts. I therefore think that there is some problem with some people's RP, and with this argument of yours, since obviously one can't even RP everything as pet that is in PS.
Next thing you know, there'll be rules about being crazy ('cause crazy people were stoned to death), or maybe being evil ('cause evil people were put in jail or hung) ...
Yes, there are. There are rules of common sense. Just how well do you think a plain murder is going to go in plain daylight, right in front of two armed and alert city guards? Not too terribly well, one'd think, yet people "RPing evil" tend to conveniently forget the consequences of their so-called "RP". Just like with those RPing annoying characters, who conveniently forget that when annoyed, people get, well, annoyed. And react accordingly. Even in a world of magic, people don't have endless tolerance. Troublemakers are still punished or otherwise gotten rid of. And if you're not willing to RP along with the not so nice consequences of your "evil RP", then I think that you're not actually RPing, but merely OOC-ly annoying.
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Ah, I think we're getting to the core now. I think that this isn't actually about animals and why it is / is not realistic to have them in PS. I think it is about people wanting to do whatever they like, regardless of what the settings says or implies, or what is stated to be OK or not. IOW, it's a veiled version of the "It's Fantasy!!!!!" non-argument.
I agree the problem is that the setting here is so unclear people tend to RP what they like. This means some very conflicting RPs and also people trying to force their version upon others. Making up having cats and ravens and whatnot that probably don't exist in Yliakum. In RP terms that is as wrong as Roleplaying Laanx as your pet seeing it's impossible. Although Laanx is atleast still from the setting and actually exists in Yliakum.
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I agree the problem is that the setting here is so unclear people tend to RP what they like. This means some very conflicting RPs and also people trying to force their version upon others. Making up having cats and ravens and whatnot that probably don't exist in Yliakum. In RP terms that is as wrong as Roleplaying Laanx as your pet seeing it's impossible. Although Laanx is atleast still from the setting and actually exists in Yliakum.
If you look at the skill description for “Empathy” under the “Various Skills” tab you’ll see:
“Empathy is used to communicate with your familiar.
A familiar is usually a little pet; it can be a bird, a snake, a cat or any
other small creature (even monsters).”
It seems that at least under the current settings owning a cat, or something similar, is a valid RP.
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If you look at the skill description for “Empathy” under the “Various Skills” tab you’ll see:
“Empathy is used to communicate with your familiar.
A familiar is usually a little pet; it can be a bird, a snake, a cat or any
other small creature (even monsters).”
It seems that at least under the current settings owning a cat, or something similar, is a valid RP.
No, its example of how some devs have no icea about the setting. BTW, is it so hidden that even devs don't know it well? ;P
But in fact how you should get it is not that there are cats, but that you know how big is cat from real world and this way you know how big animals you can control in PS. It is explanation to player, not character.
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If you look at the skill description for “Empathy” under the “Various Skills” tab you’ll see:
“Empathy is used to communicate with your familiar.
A familiar is usually a little pet; it can be a bird, a snake, a cat or any
other small creature (even monsters).”
It seems that at least under the current settings owning a cat, or something similar, is a valid RP.
No, its example of how some devs have no icea about the setting.
Yes, this is the most likely explanation. Especially seeing that there are other inconsitencies in the ingame content, and in the char creation, too, and that these will certainly see some clean-up in the future.
BTW, is it so hidden that even devs don't know it well? ;P
But in fact how you should get it is not that there are cats, but that you know how big is cat from real world and this way you know how big animals you can control in PS. It is explanation to player, not character.
However, I must agree that it is worded in a way that is, at best, highly misleading. In fact, it IMO is perfectly understandable that someone reading this will interprete it to mean that there are cats in Yliakum. While "bird" and "snake" only mean a certain type of animal, some form of which can reasonably be assumed to exist in Yliakum, "cat" refers to one specific animal. It very likely was a misunderstanding, but how will a player know that, without other references? Good that Marqsaynt spotted it so it can be addressed.
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No, I'm not saying "Have spaceships and guns", I'm saying pedantics are considered by most to be incredibly annoying for a reason :P And I'd consider this a fairly small issue to start crucifying beginners over, or even mentioning it at all to them. It's an interesting point, but it isn't that important. It doesn't take too much away from the realism, since nobody actually gives that much thought to a passing comment like "I have a pet, Crow."
Besides, arguing about RPing animals which may or may not exist within a fictional world is:
a) Rarely relevant. How many characters have you met that RP non-in-game animals as pets anyway?
b) Debatable. Nobody has set out a definitive list, because they're worried about fixing far more important things. Nobody really cares right now.
c) Fruitless. No matter how many threads with flashing neon signs you put out, there will always be people who miss the definitive list of animals you "ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT USE UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH". And there will always be some cats and ravens floating around.
d) Incredibly off-putting. I'm fairly certain the last thing a newbie wants to do when he first takes up this game is read long-winded lists of what he is, and isn't allowed to do with his character.
I'm sorry to sound patronising or ranty... I just have a tendency to mirror the people around me :P
What I'm saying is: This is a game built around the players, not a bunch of players built around a game. You want to give people what they want, not take it away. If people want real animals, give them the option of choosing for themselves.
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You see there is this thing called the settings...
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You see there is this thing called the settings...
What I'm saying is: This is a game built around the players, not a bunch of players built around a game. You want to give people what they want, not take it away. If people want real animals, give them the option of choosing for themselves.
Lemme explain ya something about Planeshift's 'settings'. They're not real (Shock!). No, no, it's true... they're actually thought up by the devs! (I was as surprised as you are!) So... they can be changed. Especially since they haven't really been fully written yet. And the devs want to make players happy, not make players confused and frustrated. ('Cause that's what they're paid to do. Or not paid, as the case may be...)
(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist the overly patronizing tone. I'm really just joking :P)
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Aye, they're incomplete. Does that mean we should complete them? No. As you said thats the job of the devs. Untill its written we'll make do. Thats the way it works.
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Aye, they're incomplete. Does that mean we should complete them? No. As you said thats the job of the devs. Untill its written we'll make do. Thats the way it works.
Okaaay, so you're on my side then. Pay attention, Jackeen... :P
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It doesn't mean we should make them up ourselves. Read my post!
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It doesn't mean we should make them up ourselves. Read my post!
I read it. When you say 'make do', do you mean 'make do without animals of any kind', or 'make do with whatever we feel is necessary'?
'Cause like I said in my post; It's not unreasonable to RP having animals that are familiar to us, especially when we know something similiar has been at least referenced to.
But, I'm not arguing pedantics here. I'm arguing that games are about having fun, not keeping a 50,000 word manual open in your browser while you play so you can stop every 2 minutes and look-up whether something technically exists yet or not.
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Right now the game is in it's beginner stages. It is hard to role-play with lack of objects and visuals (like animals grazing in the fields). Role-playing heavily relays on our imagination. I think it is safe to say that if you create a certain animal (like a purple cow) in planeshift that isn't in the settings but you want to introduce into your role-play ... then that is fine. I see no harm in it at all. If you don't make outrageous claims and it is believable then there shouldn't be a problem with it. You will also have to accept though that there will be certain players that will not accept this animal that you introduce. Some will see it as against the settings. That is just something that you will have to deal with and respect, just as they should do the same.
However, in the future .... settings and history will be written and it is then that you will need to respect those settings. At that point there will be alot to role-play with. Objects, animals and races will be avalible to the fullest. You won't need to make up things to entertain yourself because the game will have plenty to offer. So if your "purple cow" that you made up doesn't fit into the settings even though you used it in the beginning stages then I would hope people would respect the settings and drop the purple cow act and accept what the game is offering.
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However, in the future
Well my point was that with the referances ingame it isn't something that should be placed in the far of furture. It should be one of the things that is better looked at right now or we'll get more and more conflicting books and descriptions ingame so it will take a lot more time "curing" it all then it will at this time to simply set a certain line and have the other devs know what is nice and safe within that line when writing descriptions.
Also emeraldfool don't make us out as a community with it's only goal newb bashing. I have found this community one of the most supporting ones of the games I have played and am starting to find it nearing offensive that you are repeatedly acting as if the real reason I started this thread was to have a weapon to pick on newbs. I normally don't even use that term and the reason I started this thread is becuase I felt it was a problem ingame and I want to increase my knowledge of the setting to become a better roleplayer.
If people want real animals, give them the option of choosing for themselves.
I don't know about you but I think most people here want to roleplay and immerse themselves in their character. It is one of the goals of PS to have roleplaying being a large part of the game. Roleplaying involves setting. Yes the setting of PS isn't finished, but that is exactly the reason this thread was started and has relevance. To explore where the line lies. If perhaps there already is an official stance or not. How heavy the descriptions weighs according to the devs. To get input from other players who might have noticed more descriptions like the empathy introduced.
a) Rarely relevant. How many characters have you met that RP non-in-game animals as pets anyway?
b) Debatable. Nobody has set out a definitive list, because they're worried about fixing far more important things. Nobody really cares right now.
c) Fruitless. No matter how many threads with flashing neon signs you put out, there will always be people who miss the definitive list of animals you "ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT USE UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH". And there will always be some cats and ravens floating around.
d) Incredibly off-putting. I'm fairly certain the last thing a newbie wants to do when he first takes up this game is read long-winded lists of what he is, and isn't allowed to do with his character.
a) I have met several already.
b) I care
c) Asking someone if he has read the list with a smile and wink isn't penalty of death. oes this mean that is how you treat new people who don't know the setting yet?
d) You don't have to read a whole list. You only have to look at that list if you want to RP a pet other then the groffel and Yulbar already active ingame. If that is to much to ask I don't think that the game is wrong but that the game simply isn't for that person.
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THE PURPLE COW
by: Gelett Burgess (1866-1951)
I NEVER saw a Purple Cow,
I never hope to see one;
But I can tell you, anyhow,
I'd rather see one, than be one.
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No, I'm not saying "Have spaceships and guns", I'm saying pedantics are considered by most to be incredibly annoying for a reason :P And I'd consider this a fairly small issue to start crucifying beginners over, or even mentioning it at all to them. It's an interesting point, but it isn't that important. It doesn't take too much away from the realism, since nobody actually gives that much thought to a passing comment like "I have a pet, Crow."
You might find it pedantic, but I prefer my RP valid. And if I have to interact with someone who claims a pet that isn't supposed to be one, like a purple cow, then my RP will become invalid. I want my RP to be future-compatible, because anything that I may RP now could end up becoming the important turning point in the life of my, or someone elses char. Now, if this were invalidated retroactively by clashing with the settings in the future, then that char would never have had that turning point, therefore any and all RP including and after that point would be invalid. Not only the one char, but also that of anyone who meaningfully interacted with that char afterwards. So if you RP outside the settings, or something that isn't likely to become part of the settings, then I cannot RP with you, simply in order to protect my RP. And you should do the same.
This in fact makes it equivalent to the spaceships. More subtle, but just as destructive.
Besides, arguing about RPing animals which may or may not exist within a fictional world is:
Important. As I tried to express nicely, being "fictional" or "nonexistant" is absolutely irrelevant, and does in no way mean that anyone other than those in charge (which isn't you, nor me, nor anyone other than the devs) may change it.
a) Rarely relevant. How many characters have you met that RP non-in-game animals as pets anyway?
Not the majority, but some. And if we were to give even the impression of an OK, then that number will rise dramatically, and that is absolutely not acceptable. So yeah, it's highly relevant.
b) Debatable. Nobody has set out a definitive list, because they're worried about fixing far more important things. Nobody really cares right now.
And that means...? That anything that doesn't crash the server is free-for-all? I think not.
c) Fruitless. No matter how many threads with flashing neon signs you put out, there will always be people who miss the definitive list of animals you "ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT USE UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH". And there will always be some cats and ravens floating around.
It's perfectly valid. Once there are such threads, you have not only common sense, as it is now, but you also have hard, matter-of-fact proof to show them. It makes a hell of a difference if you can point someone to an official thread compared to trying to convince them that what they're doing doesn't make sense. OTOH, it helps those who are not lazy to avoid any problems right from the start.
d) Incredibly off-putting. I'm fairly certain the last thing a newbie wants to do when he first takes up this game is read long-winded lists of what he is, and isn't allowed to do with his character.
Odd, I found it helpful. In fact, it made me consider PS in the first place, as I like good RP, and that isn't possible without a setting that's being enforced.
I must say that I don't think that that newbie you described is the intended audience for PS, and I feel that I'm not alone with that opinion. Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, noone in PS has the need to have lots of players. We want good RPers, nothing else. There are many many games that'll take in anyone with internet access. PS is not one of them; it much prefers quality over quantity.
What I'm saying is: This is a game built around the players, not a bunch of players built around a game. You want to give people what they want, not take it away. If people want real animals, give them the option of choosing for themselves.
And this is where you are completely and utterly wrong. PS is, in fact, not centered around the players. It is the dev's hobby project that we are allowed to use free of charge. That's it already. So if they want something, then it's going to happen. If not, it isn't.
I don't see where you get the illusion from that the devs are somehow working for you. They aren't.
However, they're giving us the opportunity to voice our opinion and to propose changes and own ideas. And they consider them. They wouldn't have to do that, but they know that it's a good thing if done carefully.
And "carefully" does not mean "give people whatever they want". They may be inclined to give good RPers what they want, but most definitely not "people". Because the majority of "people" are not good RPers. Not even decent ones.
So yes, this community, and any and all RP within it, is built around the game, or rather, the game's settings. It's one of the benefits of PS, as it creates consistency within the RP. I prefer consistency over having a cat, or a dog, or whatnot, be it as pet or not.
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*reads Seytra's post*
Well put. :)
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No, I'm not saying "Have spaceships and guns", I'm saying pedantics are considered by most to be incredibly annoying for a reason :P And I'd consider this a fairly small issue to start crucifying beginners over, or even mentioning it at all to them. It's an interesting point, but it isn't that important. It doesn't take too much away from the realism, since nobody actually gives that much thought to a passing comment like "I have a pet, Crow."
You might find it pedantic, but I prefer my RP valid. And if I have to interact with someone who claims a pet that isn't supposed to be one, like a purple cow, then my RP will become invalid. I want my RP to be future-compatible, because anything that I may RP now could end up becoming the important turning point in the life of my, or someone elses char. Now, if this were invalidated retroactively by clashing with the settings in the future, then that char would never have had that turning point, therefore any and all RP including and after that point would be invalid. Not only the one char, but also that of anyone who meaningfully interacted with that char afterwards. So if you RP outside the settings, or something that isn't likely to become part of the settings, then I cannot RP with you, simply in order to protect my RP. And you should do the same.
This in fact makes it equivalent to the spaceships. More subtle, but just as destructive.
Excellent point, I actually never even really considered that aspect. Though, given the ever evolving and pre-beta nature of the game, it may be impossible to RP in a way that is completely future-compatible; at least without being a total isolationist. Tough to be completely consistent in a game where cities still magically move around. ;) But, it is the effort at consistency that I believe matters anyway.
From my perspective, the most valuable aspect of the point Seytra raised, is as a warning to any person that has chosen/will choose to RP a character whose very identity is tied to a particular pet that very possibly may not be in the finished version of the game. While I will not go as far as saying that it is flat out wrong to RP owning a cat, bird, etc., I do believe that for the sake of consistency it is arguably best to stick with what you know will (at least to the best of your knowledge) be in the final version of the game. If for no other reason than to ensure that your character does not become incongruous with the future settings, and therefore obsolete, or at the very least in need of a rather large personality/history retooling. After all, why put in all the effort and time creating a character, only to risk it all on the chance that there will or will not be a certain pet in later versions of PS?
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Ok... I understand realism. I'm a writer. Not really professionally - I suppose I use the term lightly, but I've been to a lot of courses and seminars, I've been hanging around writing forums since I was 11, and I've submitted stories to magazines and such and gotten paid substantial amounts of money for them.
And I can tell you, no matter who you ask, or what guide you read the NUMBER ONE thing that effects realism are characters. Setting is always at least the second, if not third. I've also taken a few psychology courses, including 'Psychology of Speculative Fiction' in DCU, which explicitly states that people identify best with people, NOT the background.
Don't get me wrong, the idea of world-building is very important, but you could have the most detailed, beautiful world ever, and if the characters are bland, monotonous or uninvolving, it'll completely destroy all your hard work. Likewise, if you have a vague, or completely unbelievable world, but some great, classic characters, the movie/book/roleplay/piece of writing will still be loved (They used the example of Star Wars - the first three were great because of the timeless characters of Yoda, Darth Vader, Leia, etc., but the most recent three were less-liked because the focus shifted more to world-building and social commentary than cool characters)
(And by the way, Garile, I was just joking about the n00b-hating thing. Just trying to keep it light-hearted :P)
Now, Seytra...
You might find it pedantic, but I prefer my RP valid. And if I have to interact with someone who claims a pet that isn't supposed to be one, like a purple cow, then my RP will become invalid. I want my RP to be future-compatible, because anything that I may RP now could end up becoming the important turning point in the life of my, or someone elses char. Now, if this were invalidated retroactively by clashing with the settings in the future, then that char would never have had that turning point, therefore any and all RP including and after that point would be invalid. Not only the one char, but also that of anyone who meaningfully interacted with that char afterwards. So if you RP outside the settings, or something that isn't likely to become part of the settings, then I cannot RP with you, simply in order to protect my RP. And you should do the same.
This in fact makes it equivalent to the spaceships. More subtle, but just as destructive.
A good RPer/writer can 'validate' anything creatively and believably. There's hundreds of devices you can use to change any situation to what you want it to be. In fact, it's the mark of a bad writer to leave things all straightened out and perfect. People like wrinkles and twists. If you're on a mission to do something, you don't want it to go perfectly. If you go outside the realms of what is considered by some of the more fussy people to be 'invalid by a factor of 1.23', there's always a way to bring it back.
Taking the purple cow... It could be a spirit, the strange form of an unknown god (there's plenty in Yliakum, and the other worlds), a hallucination (magic, poisons, insanity... Planeshift has it all. This could be a brilliant twist to your character. Classic of horror movies), a magical entity created by a mage's imagination (unless we start governing what your character is allowed to imagine and create), a fugitive hiding in a disguise, a secret weapon developed by the military, whatever.
You see, even if it starts out as something, doesn't mean it has to actually be something. Your character won't be 'ruined' at all. There's always a way to write something off, you just have to be creative.
Important. As I tried to express nicely, being "fictional" or "nonexistant" is absolutely irrelevant, and does in no way mean that anyone other than those in charge (which isn't you, nor me, nor anyone other than the devs) may change it.
There's nothing to even change yet. Just a very vague description. You don't even have any rules to be pedantic over... Yet you're still worried about people strictly following something that probably won't be around for another year. Why bother getting all worked up?
Not the majority, but some. And if we were to give even the impression of an OK, then that number will rise dramatically, and that is absolutely not acceptable. So yeah, it's highly relevant.
It's not acceptable? What exactly are you talking about not being acceptable? Where are these rules no commandments that are "absolutely not acceptable" to break? They don't exist, and not even the GMs care if people make purple cows at this point. It's the definition of not relevant, because not only have I never met a real-life pet being RPed in PS, but I've never seen anything telling us we cant. The only thing I have seen, is GMs and devs not being bothered, and references being made everywhere to horses and cows and birds and rats and snakes.
And that means...? That anything that doesn't crash the server is free-for-all? I think not.
Huh? No, it means that everybody's worried about not falling through invisible holes in the floor and dying, or spontaneously crashing mid-RP, and that the devs are busy fixing it. Nobody has time nor energy to worry whether we should say 'cat' or '<insert future term for cat-like thing here>'
It's perfectly valid. Once there are such threads, you have not only common sense, as it is now, but you also have hard, matter-of-fact proof to show them. It makes a hell of a difference if you can point someone to an official thread compared to trying to convince them that what they're doing doesn't make sense. OTOH, it helps those who are not lazy to avoid any problems right from the start.
Like I said; Nobody'll remember all this. It'll get to the point where RPs are seriously slowed down, or even burst into massive arguments, because people all have their massive compendiums of things that are allowed at the ready, and need to look-up three different things every time they say something. No doubt if you're worried about animals, you'll be worried about other things too.
Odd, I found it helpful. In fact, it made me consider PS in the first place, as I like good RP, and that isn't possible without a setting that's being enforced.
Enforcing a setting, and enforcing a bible-sized book of things you can and cant do are two very different things. I'm all for talking in-character all the time. And I'm all for keeping things realistic and medieval. What I don't want, is have to constantly worry about little things that could easily be glossed over or ignored if people don't like it anyway. The difference is the freedom to have fun. (Assuming you don't find being limited by pedantics fun)
I must say that I don't think that that newbie you described is the intended audience for PS, and I feel that I'm not alone with that opinion. Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, noone in PS has the need to have lots of players. We want good RPers, nothing else. There are many many games that'll take in anyone with internet access. PS is not one of them; it much prefers quality over quantity.
Don't think I'm being arrogant or condescending by constantly bringing this up (hehe), but I've gotten compliments on my writing style from well-known published authors, both in person and over the internet. I'd consider myself a good RPer, or if not good, then at least someone who's worthy of playing Planescape. I'd also probably be considered a newbie, having been playing for just over a week. And I can tell you, If I'd seen a bunch of 'Must-read' guides telling me exactly how to do my characters, I would have gone back to Gaia or one of the other Role-playing sites.
Don't get me wrong, I love Planeshift, and I love the community, and I like the setting, but it's bad enough that we're confined so much by the limiting mechanics and content, without further being limited by limitations that aren't even in place yet.
Anyway, I'm bored now. :P You know my opinion, for whatever it's worth. You can do what you like, but I'll only care if a dev/mod/GM says that what I'm doing is disruptive. Personally, I'm going to use my own judgement, and should something conflict with future regulations, I'll find a creative way to fix it. If you're that opposed to it, you don't have to RP with me, or anyone else who isn't content to wait to be told what to do. You might find the pool of decent RPers dwindling further, but whatever makes you happy... :P
'Twas nice debating with you though. You're pretty good... you've got an interesting style. Dismissive of the other person's arguments, yet still manages to tear into them... I'm taking notes :D
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yay, i have to keep this posts short to avoid 3 pages long quoting over some stupid issue what nobody will read anyway ;P
Emeraldfool, you seem to know a lot about psycology and stuff, but you have to remember that while dealing with different people, rules change. PS is probably something very different from this what we have all around. We are trying to build there really roleplaying game and i have learned that most people don't realise how hard it is, yet so fragile as it may be spoiled easly.
You say like "everybody this", "nobody that", about different things. But you again forget there are different people. Here the RPing matters at most, along setting oc course. I feel good with this, because this way i can always find arguments for people who are trying to perform some weird RP (like real world and ps world mix). You really don't realise how complex it may be to keep a proper enviroment for RP if you beieve in what you wrote above. There are different ways to achieve this and some are ooc, to deal with ooc people. Because of this many rules which would be valid to a normal avarage person don't really count here the way you think.
So, don't be so sure of what you write about and how you write it.
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If someone is bringing in their "achievements" of real life you just know there is something wrong.
I don't know how good a writer you are, but I personally don't feel you are a good roleplayer if those posts describe you're view on it. The difference between being a writer and a roleplayer is that you aren't alone. Your actions affect others and so no you can't just decide on your own to change the setting and no you can't just ignore when people are doing that.
Roleplaying can be very creative but you are looking at the wrong things to make it creative. It shouldn't have to be about having this unique pet noone has ever seen or heard of. Isn't that kind of shallow to begin with? If you can't make a character interesting without such props I'm doubt you are as good a writer as you claim to begin with.
As for the devs not caring. Have you even looked at the devteam? Noticed there is actually a possition that has nothing to do with programming but is just there for setting? What does this tell you? ooohh my god the devs actually do care about setting? nono that is impossible :P
The rules are here to make sure we are all playing in the same world. The very essence of roleplaying is to be creative within the setting. This makes any discusion about what the setting is very relevant and personally I don't think knowing what creatures live in Yliakum that you encounter perhaps everyday is a small issue.
And last but not least. Not everyone feels like you and doesn't this thread already proof how wrong you are in that noone cares?
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If someone is bringing in their "achievements" of real life you just know there is something wrong.
Agreed. It's not like any of it could be verified, anyway.
Ok... I understand realism.
No, not realism, settings.
And I can tell you, no matter who you ask, or what guide you read the NUMBER ONE thing that effects realism are characters.
seriously, don't confuse realism and settings, they are different. A setting doesn't have to be realistic at all, there are several completely unrealistic RPGs out there.
Setting is always at least the second, if not third. I've also taken a few psychology courses, including 'Psychology of Speculative Fiction' in DCU, which explicitly states that people identify best with people, NOT the background.
You needed to take courses to notice that? However, characters help only so much, and if the settings is crap, or doesn't appeal to one, then one won't read / participate. But that's besides the point: PS's setting is perfectly OK with me.
Star Wars - the first three were great because of the timeless characters of Yoda, Darth Vader, Leia, etc., but the most recent three were less-liked because the focus shifted more to world-building and social commentary than cool characters)
These are not at all my reasons to dislike the most recent episodes. I mostly disliked them because they scream "marketing" in your face. And because they rely on nothing but FX, instead of interesting plot. And because I hated Jar-Jar Bings or however you spell this ill-concieved mutilation of a sad, in-bred version of a failure of a comic relief substitution. Not to mention that the so-called world-building included that one can not only measure Jedi-ness, but also be doped to Jedi-ness (AKA, how high is the percentage of these force-bacteria in your blood?). Oh, and the desperate need for a shallow love story and associated scenes. On the upside, I liked the explanation of how the emperor came to power. But that's about it.
A good RPer/writer can 'validate' anything creatively and believably. There's hundreds of devices you can use to change any situation to what you want it to be. In fact, it's the mark of a bad writer to leave things all straightened out and perfect. People like wrinkles and twists. If you're on a mission to do something, you don't want it to go perfectly. If you go outside the realms of what is considered by some of the more fussy people to be 'invalid by a factor of 1.23', there's always a way to bring it back.
As has been said, a good writer doesn't equal a good RPer, because writing gives all power to the writer, whereas RPing does not. In writing, when you want something, you change the settings. In RP, you don't.
Additionally, yes, you may find lots of possible kludges to make up some sort of half-assed explanation why this and that happened. This doesn't mean it's good RP, nor good writing. You'll likely also find the "my char was teleported to Yliakum from some other world" thing a good and valid explanation to have Mr. Spock in PS the first time you see it. Maybe also the second or third, but at the 100th, you'll start noticing that it isn't all that imaginative...
BTW, I'm not talking about missions going perfectly in RP, I don't see how you might have arrived at that conclusion. It is obvious that if everything always works out, things get boring. However, this has nothing to do with violating the settings.
Taking the purple cow... It could be a spirit, the strange form of an unknown god (there's plenty in Yliakum, and the other worlds),
Ahem... seriously, there is exactly one unknown god in Yliakum. That is Vodúl. No other god has ever set divine foot inside the stalactite, and Vodúl has never, ever, so much as looked inside Yliakum. Add the DR god thing and the BF, that makes three. All of them are known settings-wise, and gods and their like are not to be tempered with by players. It's really common sense, and I doubt you'd be prepared to accept me "RPing" Laanx or something like that.
a hallucination (magic, poisons, insanity... Planeshift has it all.
So you mean a hallucination of everyone you meet? Or poisoning them? Or selective mass insanity? All of Yliakum even? Even the most powerful wizard? Eheh...
This could be a brilliant twist to your character. Classic of horror movies),
Well... no. First, horror movies aren't usually that realistic, if you look at the story. Also, even if, then it'd affect solely your character, noone else. Thus, noone would ever see your imaginary pet. Not o mention that we are not talking about RPing insanity, we're talking about RPing normal people off the streets, and their pets.
a magical entity created by a mage's imagination (unless we start governing what your character is allowed to imagine and create),
Guess what? we are. You seem to not have grasped the concept of "settings" yet. Granted, the creation of something like a pet "merely" involves a very powerful high-level wizard. However, even these have their limitations, and as such this cannot be used as cop-out for anyone except a believably RP'd powerful wizard who has a realistic background to create such a pet.
a fugitive hiding in a disguise, a secret weapon developed by the military, whatever.
Hmm, a fugitive disguising as something that doesn't exist and therefore sticks out like a torch in total darkness? Brilliant idea, the guards will be delighted!
And you do know that there isn't that much of a military in Yliakum? The secret weapon... what would it be? A raven that pecks out your eyes? One that explodes? Even then, a more disguised form would be much preferred. After all, secrecy is about not being found out... or looked at at all, if possible, blending into the background and stuff...
You see, even if it starts out as something, doesn't mean it has to actually be something. Your character won't be 'ruined' at all. There's always a way to write something off, you just have to be creative.
As I said, if you play only with yourself, then yes. If it shows up in other's RP, then no.
There's nothing to even change yet. Just a very vague description. You don't even have any rules to be pedantic over... Yet you're still worried about people strictly following something that probably won't be around for another year. Why bother getting all worked up?
In order to prevent people like you from creating destructive trends that can easily get out of control and set a bad example.
It's not acceptable? What exactly are you talking about not being acceptable? Where are these rules no commandments that are "absolutely not acceptable" to break?
These of common sense and coutesy? That which makes it possible to have one RP and another RP intertwine, instead of clash? In contrast to writing, RP is a group effort, and this means people will need to play by certain rules in order to not spoil it for everyone.
They don't exist, and not even the GMs care if people make purple cows at this point.
GMs aren't devs, and up until now it was only one. And that one even stated that it will become important in the future, which should have served as a warning and as a hint to just not go there.
It's the definition of not relevant, because not only have I never met a real-life pet being RPed in PS,
...while me and others have...
but I've never seen anything telling us we cant.
Ah, you're one of the "If there's no law, then I'll do it, no matter what anyone says!" people. I can't express how much I despise this sort of thinking. It's what makes tomes of laws necessary in the first place, and what ends up reducing freedom of everyone in the long run. Common sense and courtesy should suffice, but instead people like you insist on following only rules, and thus rules are being created, to force your likes to adhere to what really should be common sense.
The only thing I have seen, is GMs and devs not being bothered, and references being made everywhere to horses and cows and birds and rats and snakes.
"cows" are not equal to "cattle", and "cattle" can mean anything, it doesn't mean it's RL "cattle". Birds can be expected to exist, but it doesn't define "raven" or any other bird. Same with snakes. Rats are ingame, and there's nothing to argue about with them.
Huh? No, it means that everybody's worried about not falling through invisible holes in the floor and dying, or spontaneously crashing mid-RP, and that the devs are busy fixing it. Nobody has time nor energy to worry whether we should say 'cat' or '<insert future term for cat-like thing here>'
Crazy, I haven't fallen off the world in a year. Not that I was particularly worried about any such thing yet. Crashing is much less than it used to be, and there always was RP. Ever had the server crash once every 10 minutes? Ever had the client crash every 5 minutes? That is when one worries about these things, not ATM, where the server goes down once or twice a day only.
Like I said; Nobody'll remember all this. It'll get to the point where RPs are seriously slowed down, or even burst into massive arguments, because people all have their massive compendiums of things that are allowed at the ready, and need to look-up three different things every time they say something.
The "all of this" is really just one sentence like "avoid references to RL animals unless they're explicitely mentioned". Even in size 200 letters that'd hardly fill a "compendium". Also, it's nothing that one would need in general RP, it's relevant only in certain circumstances which don't arise often. It's not that you'd have to check against a list of animals each time you refer to your pet.
No doubt if you're worried about animals, you'll be worried about other things too.
Absolutely, yes.
Enforcing a setting, and enforcing a bible-sized book of things you can and cant do are two very different things.
If you have access to that book, I'd be glad to have a copy of it. There are so many holes in the settings that I'd love to see definitions for, after all. It would allow me to use them in my RP, instead of avoiding them. Maybe you can scan and upload that book?
I'm all for talking in-character all the time. And I'm all for keeping things realistic and medieval. What I don't want, is have to constantly worry about little things that could easily be glossed over or ignored if people don't like it anyway. The difference is the freedom to have fun. (Assuming you don't find being limited by pedantics fun)
Freedom has it's limits where it removes the freedom of others. So if your "little things" disrupt other's RP, then obviously your freedom stops right there. Talking "in-character" can be just as OOC as talking about computers if the character is not covered by the settings. If you, OTOH, created a settings-compliant character in the first place, then, by being IC, you can never go OOC, and thus never need to worry about any rules you might be breaking.
I'd consider myself a good RPer
You see, what you consider yourself isn't important. It's what others think that is. Writing and RP are very very different.
or if not good, then at least someone who's worthy of playing Planescape.
Planescape? Runescape maybe, but not Planeshift, FAICT. Have you ever played a PnP RPG?
I'd also probably be considered a newbie, having been playing for just over a week. And I can tell you, If I'd seen a bunch of 'Must-read' guides telling me exactly how to do my characters, I would have gone back to Gaia or one of the other Role-playing sites.
See how necessary such guides are? It is not, I repeat not your character. It is a character in a world that must fit in, so you are far from given free reign over what you create and RP. This is not one of your stories, it is everyone's story. If you don't learn to work with others, within the settings, then I'm afraid you'll never become an RPer.
You can do what you like, but I'll only care if a dev/mod/GM says that what I'm doing is disruptive.
Yeah, people like you are spoiling RL all the time, too.
Personally, I'm going to use my own judgement, and should something conflict with future regulations, I'll find a creative way to fix it.
I hope your judgement is better than what comes accross in your posts here, or even includes some common sense and courtesy. Anyway, I sincerely hope that I won't have to judge how creative it turns out to be.
If you're that opposed to it, you don't have to RP with me, or anyone else who isn't content to wait to be told what to do.
As always, I'll be absolutely delighted to do so. Please keep me updated on the names of the characters you play so I can avoid them, OK?
You might find the pool of decent RPers dwindling further
Unlikely, actually. There are several very good RPers in PS. The number of active ones has remained almost constant over the years, and I'm perfectly content to RP with a select few pristine RPers, instead of RPing with a whole army of crap ones.
Dismissive of the other person's arguments, yet still manages to tear into them...
Seriously, RP is supposed to be fun, and creative, but, as I am obviously still failing to explain, without staying within the settings, creativity stops being actually creative, and others are stopping to have fun.
It's required to maintain a consistent world, and the devs have expressed this goal on the website. And consistency is possible only if everyone plays within the settings and abides by the same rules, not only for OOC interaction, but also for what is IC and what isn't, and for what can be done and what cannot. So obviously there cannot be unlimited freedom, not even close. It may come over as dismissive, but I simply don't see any validity in you claiming otherwise.
I'm taking notes :D
I'd prefer you to take notes on what we say, though.
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Ah screw you guys. The reason I brought up the fact that I've been roleplaying, and roleplaying well, for years (on both www.gaiaonline.com - the biggest RPing site on the net (as Odin). And the role-playing section of www.student.com (as BuggerOff), and writing on www.fanstory.com (as Total Moron) - you can read any of my stuff if you want)
Is because you're constantly talking to me like I'm some sort of a complete idiot just because my post count is lower than yours. Too many people seem to equate being a 'newb' with being some sort of uneducated infant. And likewise, too many people seem to equate being a veteran with thinking they're allowed to look down on newbies.
Anyway, I'm done with this useless arguing. Nobody seems to listen to anyone around here unless it coincides with their views of the matter, and not only that, but they're so interested in forcing that opinion on people that they're willing to offend whomever they please to make a point.
I don't agree with your way of thinking, and no matter how much you patronise me, and act all self-righteous just because you know how many rocks there are between 'Ojaveda' and 'Hydlaa', you aren't going to change that. Deal with it. It's obvious I'm getting nowhere with this, no matter what I do or say.
I... just... wanted... to have a... friendly debate *sniffle* :P
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These are not at all my reasons to dislike the most recent episodes. I mostly disliked them because they scream "marketing" in your face. And because they rely on nothing but FX, instead of interesting plot. And because I hated Jar-Jar Bings or however you spell this ill-concieved mutilation of a sad, in-bred version of a failure of a comic relief substitution. Not to mention that the so-called world-building included that one can not only measure Jedi-ness, but also be doped to Jedi-ness (AKA, how high is the percentage of these force-bacteria in your blood?). Oh, and the desperate need for a shallow love story and associated scenes. On the upside, I liked the explanation of how the emperor came to power. But that's about it.
Just a minor niggle here but virtually all of your points (apart from the love story) only applied to Episode one as in Episode two Jar Jar became a much less prominent character and in the third he has only one line.
This doesn't mean it's good RP, nor good writing. You'll likely also find the "my char was teleported to Yliakum from some other world" thing a good and valid explanation to have Mr. Spock in PS the first time you see it. Maybe also the second or third, but at the 100th, you'll start noticing that it isn't all that imaginative...
Good writers should not be using such idiotic story lines unless intending to come across as using clichés for humour value.
And you do know that there isn't that much of a military in Yliakum? The secret weapon... what would it be? A raven that pecks out your eyes? One that explodes? Even then, a more disguised form would be much preferred. After all, secrecy is about not being found out... or looked at at all, if possible, blending into the background and stuff...
Just to touch on a way in which modern day combat has inspired fiction movies (I say movies because it isn't as far as I can recall in the book) is when in 'The Lion The Witch And the Wardrobe', the flying creatures (name escapes me) use rocks as 'bombs' to drop on the enemy.
Ah, you're one of the "If there's no law, then I'll do it, no matter what anyone says!" people. I can't express how much I despise this sort of thinking. It's what makes tomes of laws necessary in the first place, and what ends up reducing freedom of everyone in the long run. Common sense and courtesy should suffice, but instead people like you insist on following only rules, and thus rules are being created, to force your likes to adhere to what really should be common sense.
Just to add a Plato quote for the heck of it 'Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. '
Planescape? Runescape maybe, but not Planeshift, FAICT. Have you ever played a PnP RPG?
Don't you think that’s a little bit pedantic? It was obviously a misspelling.
Ah screw you guys.
You have to bear in mind that what is said on this forum is usually not personal so don't take it to hard when you find every line questioned. However I will not say that you did not provoke him slightly with the line "Not everyone feels like you and doesn't this thread already proof how wrong you are in that noone cares?"
I don't agree with your way of thinking, and no matter how much you patronise me, and act all self-righteous just because you know how many rocks there are between 'Ojaveda' and 'Hydlaa', you aren't going to change that. Deal with it. It's obvious I'm getting nowhere with this, no matter what I do or say.[.quote]
Admittedly Seytra's remarks do seem a little harsh at first glance yet take them with a pinch of salt. One more thing, never give up never stop fighting for what you think is right its what makes life so fun.
(Not taking sides just commenting.)
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Ah screw you guys.
You have to bear in mind that what is said on this forum is usually not personal so don't take it to hard when you find every line questioned. However I will not say that you did not provoke him slightly with the line "Not everyone feels like you and doesn't this thread already proof how wrong you are in that noone cares?"
Think most has already been said so will just comment at this what seems to be directed at me ;)
I feel it is indeed lightly provoking him, but not in a way that it outshines anything said in this thread. After all in his first posts he keeps saying we are only making this thread to be elitist and at best not caring for the new player. Also he keep bringing in that the whole thread and thus our opinions are pointless becuase nobody cares several times in simply different wording.
Now he is saying we aren't listening to him but if you read his posts a lot of it is simply repeating and not replying and yes then I feel provoked to point out his point is not valid in less subtle ways. However pointing out not everyone shares his opinion should be simple common sence and saying that this thread is proof of that not everyone shares his opinion is just an extention of that. But that is how I see it. Can't agree on everything obviously as this thread has proven. ;)
PS:
*looks at her postcount*
I'm being elitist becuase my postcount is higher?
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Ah screw you guys. The reason I brought up the fact that I've been roleplaying, and roleplaying well, for years (on both www.gaiaonline.com - the biggest RPing site on the net (as Odin). And the role-playing section of www.student.com (as BuggerOff), and writing on www.fanstory.com (as Total Moron) - you can read any of my stuff if you want)
I might at least look at the sites and their general style of RP some time. The names you quoted using don't seem to speak in your favor, but that may depend on the site's settings. Please also notice that I think that the size of a RPG site doesn't equal quality of RP. If that were true, then Runescape would be a very good RPG. In fact, the bigger a site, the less I expect quality, because there simply aren't many really good RPers out there.
Is because you're constantly talking to me like I'm some sort of a complete idiot just because my post count is lower than yours. Too many people seem to equate being a 'newb' with being some sort of uneducated infant. And likewise, too many people seem to equate being a veteran with thinking they're allowed to look down on newbies.
Interesting, there never has been any mention of that. Anyway, I go by what people say and do, and therefore I may easily have much more respect for a newbie than for an oldbie. In fact, there are some newbies who have had no idea of RP but are learning fast, and I have quite a lot of respect for them. Just like the opposite is the case with some oldbies.
My impression of you is simply that you think that you know everything about RP when you don't even appreciate the most basic things like settings. That is why I'm "constantly talking to you like you're some sort of a complete idiot".
I don't agree with your way of thinking, and no matter how much you patronise me, and act all self-righteous just because you know how many rocks there are between 'Ojaveda' and 'Hydlaa', you aren't going to change that. Deal with it. It's obvious I'm getting nowhere with this, no matter what I do or say.
It is very obvious you don't, and I will deal with that. However, I think that "acting self-righteous" applies to you, no to me. At least I have done some reasoning why ignoring the settings is bad for RP, whereas you only have cited "fun" and experiences from writing stories (and that "noone cares", which clearly isn't the case).
I... just... wanted... to have a... friendly debate *sniffle* :P
Sorry, but RP is too important for me to leave the impression of condoning what I do not. I also don't think that I've been particularly unfriendly, nor anyone else. However, I definitely don't take well to people claiming that only laws can stop them.
Planescape? Runescape maybe, but not Planeshift, FAICT. Have you ever played a PnP RPG?
Don't you think that’s a little bit pedantic? It was obviously a misspelling.
I know that it was one, and I also do not normally comment on them, let alone use them against the person who made them (in fact, I completely agree that it's very pedantic and even idiotic to do so). However, I found this particular typo to be as revealing as a statement, so I felt it was justified. Also, AMOF, I actually read it as saying "Planeshift" the first time (which wouldn't make things better IMO, though). The only thing that I added after realising what it actually said was "Planescape?".
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Back on topic...
For a character that has Endurance 38, and that won't train it because of RP reasons, learning riding and having a ryunaak(Seems to be the equivalent of a horse) or perhaps even a pterosaur would be very useful if she needed to travel long distances
And I think all creatures should be original, slightly based of RL animals
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And I think all creatures should be original, slightly based of RL animals
I'd say not exactly based on RL animals, but the common rules which counts everywhere, RL or virtual world which is based on the same rules. So, body balance, body shaped the way how the animal is supposed behalve and live. The Tefusang is the worst example. It looks like it's body is higly unbalanced because of the heavy claws, also the claws don't look like they may move in too big angles.
The animals should just have more thought put into them, not only artistic.
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One thing that I frequently am annoyed by is the restrictive form of "originality" seen in PS. Sure, we don't want to be like everyone else, but it seems that too much of the time originality is used to mean "you can't do this because it's in real life etc.", not "you should do something new, even if it takes some elements from elsewhere." I mean, it's one thing when devs explicitly say something isn't in the game, and another thing for people to self-censor their ideas before the rules are set.
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Back on topic...
For a character that has Endurance 38, and that won't train it because of RP reasons, learning riding and having a ryunaak(Seems to be the equivalent of a horse) or perhaps even a pterosaur would be very useful if she needed to travel long distances
And I think all creatures should be original, slightly based of RL animals
I would say that no matter her skill at riding she still could not ride for long without exhaustion with low endurance like that. Strap her to the beast if she has to make a long journey.
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I'm sorry Siteri but I don't see how having for example a raven gives you something new a bird not from RL wouldn't give you. It's not like I'm against you having a catlike pet just don't like the idea of having a cat. Specially when people who do take such animals roleplay quite often it's a very common animal while in my RPs I never encountered one before that so why not say you have a bird that looks a lot like a raven would and say it's a rare bird instead? Sounds a lot more original to me without having to bring in RL animals.
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Who says there are even birds in the world? I haven't seen any, nor for that matter have I seen anything insect-like. One of the pets is vaguely chicken-like and the other is sort of grub-like I guess. if these are typical of the easily domesticated small creatures I would not expect to see anything particularly familiar. I think the rats give a bad example, they are vaguely rat-like but ar too large. Perhaps they could be called grats instead.
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I think we need to remember to keep this in mind: just as the game itself is in development, so is the setting. A list of all the animals that might inhabit the first level might not even be around yet, so don't get your hopes up about being fed all this great information. Things are being tweaked and added all the time, and as the world expands you may find it changing. It's an inconvenience to roleplay, but it's not really escapable right now.
I personally don't understand why we can't have a mix of some "earthly" animals and something more outlandish. Must there be a strict division? Almost everything that gets into PlaneShift is also based on personal preference, primarily by Talad. If he wants rats but no ponies, that's the way it'll be. If he wants elves but no dragons, that's the rule. So it may be hard to guess at what fauna you'll see in the world (and hey, I understand the frustration - Karyuu herself is a hunter) but there's no need to feel rushed, or to rush the settings team.
There's a lot of work to be done.
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I was actually more taking the big picture into account in my last post. (Which was made from my Wii by the way :) ) Basically, what I was really saying is that, for PS to be a unique world, it doesn't have to avoid using anything in common with anything else. I mean, we already have elves and dwarves. And, the idea of just taking a real-world animal and just changing its name doesn't really work (yeah, I know I suggested it before...) because it's still the same animal. People might end up calling it by the earth name anyway. (like how some people call Enkidukai cats, even though they aren't.)
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Almost everything that gets into PlaneShift is also based on personal preference, primarily by Talad. If he wants rats but no ponies, that's the way it'll be. If he wants elves but no dragons, that's the rule. So it may be hard to guess at what fauna you'll see in the world
This is very disappointing. I was hoping that there'd at least be some reasoning why things are / are not put in. If this is the true "reasoning" behind PS, then there is no basis whatsoever to reason with people. IOW, if it's completely arbitrary, the only "argument" would be "It's the rule, even if it doesn't make sense". Maybe for consistency between independent RP, but then again, if things can change without any logic, this is just as moot.
FWIW, I think PS shouldn't have any more things from RL, at least not animals, since they are much more noticable than items would be. That in turn would lead to people assuming the remaining things from earth are there as well, even if they aren't "by the rules".
Obviously, the animals need to be realistic, and able to actually exist on their own, meaning that there'll be at least some similarity to RL animals. Still, they should be distinctly different so PS won't feel like it's RL.
*sigh*
Regarding the low-END riding, how about using a carriage? That has the benefits of being more relaxed, more comfourtable and more adequate for many people. Pterosaurs will be way out of reach of the common or lower upper class citizens, or so the settings says (ATM, anyway :\ ).
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Let us assume for a second that the Humans are from our Earth, if that was true then they would most likely have arrived in normadic groups suggesting that they would carry mainly useful animals and very little (if any) sea creatures. Most of their animals would have been of some use if only as pets, this suggests that the Earth creatures would only be that of either common pet usage or of food/haulage use eliminating some creatures.
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This is very disappointing. I was hoping that there'd at least be some reasoning why things are / are not put in.
:) Thats funny because in the whole of all your posts I didn't see that question once.
@Everyone: What I don't understand is why it is so hard for people to get that these questions aren't ready to be answered because the game is under construction. There are no answers to give. When the animals of planeshift begin to get implimented in the game then I think that is the more the appropriate time to bring this up. For now voicing your point of view might help the dev's with some decisions on what should and shouldn't be implimented and what players seem to like vs dislike.
Also one thing I would like to point out, no one has the authority to tell another player they are a bad role-player. As far as I know we are all learning to RP and there is definitely room for mistakes. None of us are that good at role-play that when we give advice that is what the other player must follow. Everyone is different, so role-play will vary between players. If it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong.
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@Everyone: What I don't understand is why it is so hard for people to get that these questions aren't ready to be answered because the game is under construction. There are no answers to give. When the animals of planeshift begin to get implimented in the game then I think that is the more the appropriate time to bring this up. For now voicing your point of view might help the dev's with some decisions on what should and shouldn't be implimented and what players seem to like vs dislike.
Actually, if you have reed carefully, you would see, that we mentioned at least few times a tefusang, which is animal and which is in game, but it isn't exactly valid animal. This topic gives reason why and some simple propositions.
Also one thing I would like to point out, no one has the authority to tell another player they are a bad role-player. As far as I know we are all learning to RP and there is definitely room for mistakes. None of us are that good at role-play that when we give advice that is what the other player must follow. Everyone is different, so role-play will vary between players. If it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong.
the fact people want to RP in different ways, doesn't mean they should do it. We already have problems with people who are going outside setting and dont care about consistence of the world around them. They don't realise the can't disapare from other people RP, these people who try to be in setting and who can't ignore this what they other groups do. While there are many kinds of RP, there arent many which are valid. And i feel that i'm allowed to poit it out to people who don't get it, because i want to have valid RP experience too, in a game where things should be this way.
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Thats funny because in the whole of all your posts I didn't see that question once.
It's not funny at all. And yes, up until now I was under the impression that there actually was a well-thought out grand scheme behind PS. One that one can rely upon, and that the things that are implemented, or at least the things that are stated on the mainsite, in the settings section, are here to stay, and that in turn one can safely extrapolate from that.
BTW, I have raised this question before, twice, and was each time given acceptable reason to assume that indeed it was safe.
Also one thing I would like to point out, no one has the authority to tell another player they are a bad role-player. As far as I know we are all learning to RP and there is definitely room for mistakes. None of us are that good at role-play that when we give advice that is what the other player must follow. Everyone is different, so role-play will vary between players. If it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong.
Fine, pretend that all my posts start with "IMO" or "IMNSHO" as appropriate, then. I think that (IMO, obviously) there in fact are some basics to RP that objectively make one a bad RPer, like ignoring the settings, mixing IC and OOC, lack of consistency, godmoding, using 1337, taking control of other's chars and such. And in fact these are the things that I base my judgement on. The other cases mainly consist of "Deal with it"- type players and other things that may be argued to be more "RP style" than quality, but nontheless are of influence to the RP experience.
Yes, everyone makes mistakes, and I myself have been guilty of (albeit comparatively light) "deal with it"-style RP-ing in the beginning. Still, this doesn't mean that there is no reason to (try to) improve, or that noone, not even the 1337 PL d00d from hell, can be called "bad RPer". IMO, and FAICT objectively, there are "good" RPers and there are "bad" ones. Trying to say otherwise is an attempt to declare everyone equal which isn't the case, as you stated yourself.
Therefore, if someone's idea of "RP" differs so greatly from the general concept of "RP" that it is something else, then how can you justify not calling them "bad RPer"? Sounds like political correct "never say anything bad about anyone"- newspeak to me that eliminates all meaning.
Nikodemus phrased it pretty well: of all possible kinds of RP (following your definition, not mine), there are only very few that comply to PS's goal of creating a consistent world. Therefore, what I call "bad RP" can be redefined "invalid RP in the PS sense" if need be. However, that doesn't mean that it's desirable to have in PS. As a GM, you should see to it that people's RP style complies with PS's goal instead of trying to tell everyone that they're "RPers with different style". Yes, PS is pre-alpha. Yes, the settings needs to be expanded a lot. No, this doesn't mean that what we do now doesn't matter in the future. You are a prime example that the players of today are the GMs and devs of tomorrow. If we now make "non-PS compliant RPers" feel welcomed, then they will not only not change, but also stay, and therefore may end up being GMs and devs, and it is then that PS starts going down the drain. So, even though I'd like to be able to, I cannot and will not welcome just anybody. And neither should you.
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Actually, if you have reed carefully, you would see, that we mentioned at least few times a tefusang, which is animal and which is in game, but it isn't exactly valid animal. This topic gives reason why and some simple propositions.
A Tefusang isn't a valid animal? Who says? There are rules now to what is and isn't valid by the players? Players whine to have the animals not relate to real life and yet when they don't players pick the animals existence in Yliakum apart. The dev's are damned if they do and damned if they don't, and we wonder why they never answer us in these threads. No I didn't read every little bit of text in this thread and I may have missed a few things, but it isn't a surprise to be quoted and questioned.
the fact people want to RP in different ways, doesn't mean they should do it. We already have problems with people who are going outside setting and dont care about consistence of the world around them. They don't realise the can't disapare from other people RP, these people who try to be in setting and who can't ignore this what they other groups do. While there are many kinds of RP, there arent many which are valid. And i feel that i'm allowed to poit it out to people who don't get it, because i want to have valid RP experience too, in a game where things should be this way.
My point wasn't that you shouldn't set an example and speak to these people and explain that their role-play might be disruptive or could improve. My point was you don't need to take the negitive way and tell them they are a bad role-player. There are much better ways to go about the situation. JUst saying to another role-player that they are a bad role-player is enough to have them shut their ears to you. You won't get any where with an attitude like that. Also again please keep in mind if it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong. Your particular taste isn't law, and there are different varities. This is something I have learned personally after playing this game for almost two years.
Thats funny because in the whole of all your posts I didn't see that question once.
It's not funny at all. And yes, up until now I was under the impression that there actually was a well-thought out grand scheme behind PS. One that one can rely upon, and that the things that are implemented, or at least the things that are stated on the mainsite, in the settings section, are here to stay, and that in turn one can safely extrapolate from that.
BTW, I have raised this question before, twice, and was each time given acceptable reason to assume that indeed it was safe.
"That's funny becuase ..... " It's an expression. I don't think it funny in the least. I was just pointing out that I hadn't seen you ask out right. So acting like your questions are going unanswered is kind of silly because you never did ask the question.
So you know for a fact that there hasn't been thought put into the settings and game? From one post from karyuu? Maybe they don't tell us for the simple fact that everything is argued and they don't have the time for that sort of thing because they are to busy building the game.
Also one thing I would like to point out, no one has the authority to tell another player they are a bad role-player. As far as I know we are all learning to RP and there is definitely room for mistakes. None of us are that good at role-play that when we give advice that is what the other player must follow. Everyone is different, so role-play will vary between players. If it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong.
Fine, pretend that all my posts start with "IMO" or "IMNSHO" as appropriate, then. I think that (IMO, obviously) there in fact are some basics to RP that objectively make one a bad RPer, like ignoring the settings, mixing IC and OOC, lack of consistency, godmoding, using 1337, taking control of other's chars and such. And in fact these are the things that I base my judgement on. The other cases mainly consist of "Deal with it"- type players and other things that may be argued to be more "RP style" than quality, but nontheless are of influence to the RP experience.
Yes, everyone makes mistakes, and I myself have been guilty of (albeit comparatively light) "deal with it"-style RP-ing in the beginning. Still, this doesn't mean that there is no reason to (try to) improve, or that noone, not even the 1337 PL d00d from hell, can be called "bad RPer". IMO, and FAICT objectively, there are "good" RPers and there are "bad" ones. Trying to say otherwise is an attempt to declare everyone equal which isn't the case, as you stated yourself.
Therefore, if someone's idea of "RP" differs so greatly from the general concept of "RP" that it is something else, then how can you justify not calling them "bad RPer"? Sounds like political correct "never say anything bad about anyone"- newspeak to me that eliminates all meaning.
Nikodemus phrased it pretty well: of all possible kinds of RP (following your definition, not mine), there are only very few that comply to PS's goal of creating a consistent world. Therefore, what I call "bad RP" can be redefined "invalid RP in the PS sense" if need be. However, that doesn't mean that it's desirable to have in PS. As a GM, you should see to it that people's RP style complies with PS's goal instead of trying to tell everyone that they're "RPers with different style". Yes, PS is pre-alpha. Yes, the settings needs to be expanded a lot. No, this doesn't mean that what we do now doesn't matter in the future. You are a prime example that the players of today are the GMs and devs of tomorrow. If we now make "non-PS compliant RPers" feel welcomed, then they will not only not change, but also stay, and therefore may end up being GMs and devs, and it is then that PS starts going down the drain. So, even though I'd like to be able to, I cannot and will not welcome just anybody. And neither should you.
Who says I don't "see to it that people's RP style complies with PS's goal" as you put it? As a Gm I do my job thank you very much and I think that you shouldn't assume so much because it doesn't become you. I am not going to argue you with on what, how, and in what way RP should be done. Obviously I am going down the right path if I made Gm. :/ Besides this is only an attempt to try and discredit my Gming skills when you really have no clue what I do and how I do it. Maybe you should know what your talking about before you go off about how things should be done. One post by me and picked apart to death by you doesn't mean I am not doing my job.
I do however seriously think you are stepping out of line when telling another player they are a bad role-player though. You didn't seem to like being told you were doing wrong by telling a player they are a bad role-player might I point out, so why would you think another player would appreciate you pointing out they are a bad role-player and further more take you seriously? You don't have to deal with a situation like that because that is only a put down and nothing more. It doesn't help anything. Just like your picking apart my post and acting like I am a bad Gm because I don't do my job the way you think I should isn't accomplishing anything. Unlike you I welcome all people into this game. It was pointed out by a dev in a thread awhile back that this game isn't just for roleplayers, this game is for everyone and their gaming needs.
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I would just like to state that no, the settings are not a grand support structure. Most of it is unknown even to its creator, and that leaves the rest of us being told to walk a path in complete darkness, and not to bump into anything on the way.
I have asked many questions on the Settings, and have pointed out where they do not make complete, or even vague sense. The usual answer is "I see not problem with that".
Contrary to belief, the basic Settings are the easiest part to create. There is no code, no art, no supporting systems, and no effects. It is all just words about a made up land. Realistic creatures are simple to come up with. Cities and lands just as easy. The history is slightly more tricky, as it has to interlock with races and culture in a way that makes sense. World building is the same as building a house. You start with a plan of where you want to end up, then build the structure to support it. PS is trying to build the roof before putting in the walls that hold it up.
The Settings seem to be a hack job shoe-in most of the time to try to support what is being created now. A government exists, but with absolutely no thought given to how it was created. Cities exist with very little history, and seem to be just places to put NPCs. Then there are the Bronze Doors, which I have always seen as the center of the game, yet there is little or no indication of how, when, or who build them. Not to mention the giant tower in Hydlaa that serves no purpose at all, and I believe was just put there as something interesting to look at. Take any subject in the game and try to ask why it is. That includes pets. Dogs, cats, even birds and horses have long histories that we can follow back as far as memory goes, and know how they came to be. In PS? All I can say is "Oh look....a pet." The roof was once again put up without the pillars to support it. How hard is it to create something to support even the smallest of things? It is not.
The history of the domestication of the Groffel (an example):
The loyal hearding creature known as Groffel is thought to have come through the same portal as the Demorian elf race, though records are not clear on the matter. In the wild days when our world was yet overrun with preditors, and the vast fields had yet to be plowed, the Groffel was indispensable to the Elves who guarded one of our ancestor’s only reliable sources of food. That being the dependable elvish cattle. As time passed, and the forests and creatures gave way to worked fields and protected farms, the lands saw fewer and fewer of the hard working Groffel. There would likely still be very few of the animals around if not for Octarch <name>, who found the creature to be quite endearing, so took one as the official pet of the First Level. This brought a vast demand for the animal to the common home, despite the fact that they made awful house pets due to their active nature. But in time, the Groffel was breed to be more calm and adapted to domestic living. The unfortunate side effect is that many of the herding instincts have also been lost in this selective breeding. One can still find a few breeders who stand by the old ways, and try to keep the original behaviors of our Groffel friends intact. These offspring still stand guard next to their herder and farmer companions just as they had in out long distant past. Old breed or new, one trait remains intact. Once grown, the creature becomes attached to its owner, and will serve no other.
And that, folks, is why people are drawn to the creatures of our own world. There is simply nothing to connect to in the pets, creatures, cultures, and past of the game. Pet are nothing but eye candy with nothing to ground them.
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Perhaps there could be another post on the Dev team with the job to gather all the information about events/creatures and publish them so we could have a more solid base to RP from? Someone who would have access to all the quest information all the character creation information and perhaps even able to talk to the creators of creatures/jobs to get their input on the story.
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@ Under the moon: I don't think the lack of actual history is the biggest problem with pets. However, their general traits likely are, which are included in your example history. People are taking things that they like IRL into PS unless there are viable, likable alternatives.
Additionally, there are no actually useful animals, save the (unattainably expensive) pterosaurs and the ryunaak (which is nothing but a name ATM). Also, there are, as has been said, few animals, if any, that may appeal to one in the way that cats or wolves do. Groffels and Yulbars are starting to fill the gap for general-purpose pets, but there's nothing resembling the deadly grace of some RL predators.
Regarding the unknownness of PS's background: are you sure? On one hand, we get "you shouldn't RP glyphs that aren't implemented", while on the other, we now get "there is no problem with <just about anything>"? Maybe I should post a question on the Q&A thread.
@Watcher: that would be an option, but AFAIK only devs have access to the quest database, let alone the remaining things, so it'd have to be a dev. And that would pretty much make it impossible to happen, as devs rarely ever post at all.
@ Akaye: I'm going to send my reply to you as PM, to not further disrupt this thread.
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Can I make one thing clear here. People seem to have this misconception that Gm's have the power to add or change game mechnics and settings. This is not the case. We are here to police the game and help players with any problems that may cause problematic issues for the player. We are also here to promote the settings and create events for player enjoyment. We cannot impliment our thoughts, ideas, beliefs into the settings of planeshift. We cannot change anything with the game. We follow the rules that have been made and we enforce them. Nothing more and nothing less.
There are two Gm's that have dev settings as well. Please do not confuse the two jobs though. Most of us Gm's are just players who have been around awhile and know enough about the game to help out players and create events. We at times are in the dark too with certain age old topics and can't be expected to know the answers just because we are Gm's.
@Seytra: Sure, I will make it a point to check my pm's.
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Wel thread seems to have drifted more to the setting in general again while I was away. ;)
Personally my problem with the setting is it hasn't really been exapanded in the two years I have been playing. Since the transfer to CB there hasn't been any updates to the stories that is of any use in the characters life. Now the few things that has been added ingame I hear aren't even written by the settingteam and aren't even checked by seeing they at points don't comply with the setting.
Also the argument setting should evolve with the game is invalid. One because it isn't evolving while the game at the moment is and two becuase there are plenty of roleplaying games made with whole books already written as the setting like the Wheel of Time roleplaying games. It might give the developers of those kind of games a lot less creativity in creating maps, but it also gives them a clear line of what they have to create.
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Even though this is a MMORPG, it's obvious the devs aren't concentrating on the Rolepaly part currently. Only on the massive multiplayer game part. And we're supposed to test the game. With or without some its most relevant content.
I know it can be frustrating. And that this could've been done before there was even an executable file, libraries and models. Oh well, there are plenty of other things completly wrong about the way things are done in PS. I've played Molecular Blue though, so I'm not too demanding.
Currently I consider as the best option asking the GM's for help on issues such as these (where we can't know how to conduct our roleplay). We ask them, they answer, we go along with our roleplay knowing we did nothing wrong.
I'd also consider creating a wish thread, with opinions on animal names, descriptions, etc. If we leave it all up to Talad and his creative team (if any) we're bound to stay like this for quite some time. Oh wait. We probably will stay like this anyway.
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If you think about it that way it sometimes makes you feel cheated with the promises that PS would be different. Making it so the community is still this RP focussed despite the game instead of because of it.
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we may rarely post but we do read ;)
Seytra is correct in the assumption that many of the species of animals likely exist but they likely have different names/qualities etc. the same is true for basic types of plants etc.
whoever meantioned the idea that many of the races brought livestock with them etc this is true or not to various degrees based on the race and their history. The Xacha for instance likely brought nothing other than their emmaciated bodies, having eaten everything edible in their long period of hunger. The ylains could be expected to bring their livestock however. The dermorian brought trees (from settings) the diaboli brought giant snakes (from settings)
Pack animals such as horses or donkeys will likely exist at some point but they will not be like donkeys or horses. <--for example
From the perspective of a player having a cat or a raven to use in your rp is probably ok.
From the perspective of settings dept pushing too much for animals that are not currently in game (no models etc) is not the best expenditure of our energy. Utm points to more vital areas to concentrate on.
Many of you have been here for years so it is hard to say to you to be patient with new content, but i can tell you we have an active settings dept atm and you should have already experienced this.
/me kicks utm ;)
I cannot promise all the gaps will be filled as there are many but you can expect some to be filled soon(tm)
P.S. Emeraldfool don't let them get you upset, we are all just noobs with fancy hats on.